 Welcome to the 21 convention Orlando Florida 2017. I'm Socrates for 21 radio today I have with me Tanner Guzzi of masculine style and George Bruno with Gray Bailey Welcome gentlemen. Thanks. Thank you. To be really honest. I'm gonna try to take a backseat on this I know we have two guys that we had coming in talk about style the importance of it the fashion world everything about art Thetics as far as putting on clothing and expressing your frame The you two need to get together. I want to make sure you guys they actually have the conversations you want rather than my poor interjections so a lot of that introduction and Let's take it away from there. Okay, great So I actually I've been wanting to ask you ever since I heard your presentation yesterday How do how do you help men understand? Not just like face shape and other things But even kind of the way that like the difference between a goatee versus a shorter beard versus a longer beard and kind of what? The the social implications of those of those different things are when it comes to the grooming How do you have those conversations with them? Well, it's interesting. I my channel Gray Bailey on YouTube was formed Because people were asking me questions the same questions over and over and over for years So what I did was I started just putting together videos that were answering questions. I did not intend them to get popular If I had 500 subscribers that would have been fine with me. I did not expect it to be income I did not expect it to like be such a huge part of my life and then all of a sudden it took off just took off and Now people are coming from seven countries in 17 states to sit in my chair celebrities broadcasters sports stars And when it comes to facial hair, I always ask people what are your goals? Let's start with the end in mind. Let's see What do you want to accomplish? You know, are you in the financial field if you are then you can't look like somebody from duck dynasty and nothing against duck Dynasty because that works for them exactly. It works perfect for them so I Know a friend of mine Eric Bandholz who started beard brand friends with Eric as well Okay, absolutely. So his whole thing is you know change the way society views beards and I I agree with that and I say That you need to Just start with the end. What do you want to accomplish? What is your beard goal? So when a guy sits in my chair? What I want to do is I want him to have the best beard that his face can handle right number one number two What industry is he in what kind of relationships is he in and I grew a beard down to my belt buckle Over a two-year period and it was it was kind of a social experiment. It was a bucket listy kind of thing I mean, it's you know, I want to go skydiving. I want to see the Grand Canyon you know, I want to hang glide and I wanted to grow a huge beard just monstrous beard and Unfortunately, I didn't decide to do that till my hair and turned white So just that alone has social implications of big white beard when I was younger when it was my hair was black I was like some of these young men that you see at the conference It would have been cool to have a big giant black beard, you know, but I Procrastinated and did it when it turned white. So for me I have logged all of the social Implications of facial hair and that that's a lot of what the channel turned into was my what I just call blog serrations about societies Response to me and People's response to me in everyday life from just neighbors to women to family to at work to Trying to close deals to closing deals Going to court For custody issues, you know with a I'll never forget my my ex-wife telling me once You really need to take that beard off because you're gonna look like Satan in court and I'm like and I'll never for and it was it was a It was a separate issue other than custody, but I'll never I'm thinking like do you really think I'm gonna be judged by the judge for my Facial hair and the answer is yeah So I Start with people's beard goals grooming goals and then work my way backward. What do they want to accomplish? I was telling Socrates before we had a I Had a guy that I did a consult with recently very soft features Literally with no facial hair and I showed you the picture. He looked like he was 14 We went through some steps over a period of a couple weeks through the consult that I offer via Skype and phone and Now he looks like a bat. He looks like a professional wrestler now. Yeah, and he's getting the rewards of having Having that look as well and the detail led to just a standard I won't say you know you had you look at and go he had standing with this beard You know it you said I go it's intentional. It looks natural, but you look at and go it was a transformational appearance You know immediate visual in a totally totally transformation. That's why I love before and afters Yeah, up on any level in any industry just give me remodeling Hair beards clothing whatever before and afters are amazing. Yeah, okay So I take the same approach when it comes to style because I'm sure that you deal with this the same way Where most people most men especially now when they look at the clothing that they put on or the way that they cut their hair Or anything it's one reactive as opposed to proactive or two It's just a tactical approach as opposed to a strategic approach You know, they don't think about the end goal or you know, what is it that I'm trying to communicate or trying to accomplish It's just does this look good or does it not look good or this is the same thing I've had since I was a little boy, so I'm gonna continue to wear my hair or wear my clothing the same way Why do you think we're at the point where for men appearance is passive reactive and unintentional As opposed to at other point, I mean you can't tell me a Viking wasn't intentional about his beard So why is it that we now aren't that way about our our facial hair and our style and everything else? Why do you think that is I Think men in their heart of hearts Know what masculine style is but it's being drowned out by other voices Why do you think game of thrones is so huge? I get Morgan I can't even tell you if it wasn't for you know, how who was it? Johnny Soporno was Talking about the sopranos all you know, it made like you know like chubby guys that are balding a little bit real popular I was like game of thrones made my industry. So, you know, and I saw that with madman five years Yeah, exactly. It's just it worked really well for me that everybody wants to look like a damn Viking Well, it's shorthand culture right? Cultural shorthand totally so I think the media and TV has a has a big effect I find when people show me pictures of what they want hair and beard they're showing me pictures of game of thrones They're showing me pictures of sons of anarchy and I'm finding a resurgence in masculinity No one's telling me Make me look softer, right? Yeah, make me look like less of a man I'm getting is a matter of fact. There's a market. I think for the guys that are not blessed with angular Traditionally masculine features. They're coming to me saying I need a makeover and I want to look a little more You know because in the natural pecking order of things, you know women when it comes to single guys Women choose a man that is looks like he can protect, right? He might have he might have bullets look like Yosemite Sam covered with guns and firearms But he's got to look like a man. Yeah, and I find that to be I Find that to be comforting that that's coming back and I'm working with like little short chubby attorneys that look like they're 16 years old who are Trying to grow a goatee and trying to have a little bit of swagger and kind of jack up their game a little bit and It it's just there's such a market for it out there and they're not getting it from the media, right? They're not getting it from TV shows We've redefined everything from what the damn family is to what manhood is especially because when you talk about the media I mean the shows that you're referencing that they are pulling it from Historical or fantastical things like game of thrones or it's the Antiheroes and the rebels out of Sons of Anarch here, but when you look at kind of what is being put like no I highly doubt that you have very many men who come to you with a picture of somebody from like a romantic Comedy that you know as kind of what women are projecting is what the ideal right, but it's what we see is like Raw masculinity and I want to look like that. Yeah. I don't look like what she wants me to look like I want to look like that. Yeah, right. Yeah And I'll say this being a great offender You know you learn through trauma and part of it is you delay what you don't know not comfortable with The second area is you're forced to and then you make the mistakes I clearly having listened to both you yesterday or day before yesterday Was in a position where I was tired wasn't thinking I had the information But if you're not used to use the line that you make the mistake the second And I think this is terribly important being an architect is I was trained to teach or I was trained and taught of design language So you're trained in it I have no way to communicate other than through memes or through images or cultural short-hand What do I mean? And so particularly with 10 or what I found terribly impressive that you broke it down into very Simplistic approaches that you say hey, these are the style types of your arch types and you can make a pattern of it Also, I'm looking at my own clothing going. Oh, you know I you know I you know I can point to it and I can name it and you can then have a conversation And I found that to be terribly important particularly even the conversation I had literally coming here was explicitly about that so I Set that and knowing that I was gonna have you have a chance to have the two of you together to be able to discuss that I think it's terribly important and to sit down and say hey as you know You know users of this organization Look even the speakers are reflective looking that we're learning from each other and there's a lot we can learn You would sit down and say for a man's comfort for guys talk my man Fashion is something terribly important because you're you're expressing yourself that friend. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely So what would be some things where you say starting point for somebody? You know on the receiving end of a video watching this that you would sit down say what are things to do when and how? What would be the best way to kind of start that approach? I would say take the same approach that George has already talked about where you figure out what the end goal is Rather than being reactive and I'm gonna go to the store And I'm gonna see what speaks to me or what I like or just kind of piecing things together You develop an idea of what the end goal looks like and part of that is very introspective Because you need to know not only what you want to look like But what kind of man you actually want to be right how you want to interact with the world What the best version of you is it's almost like a vision board, right? You know and you put up Lamborghinis and hot girls and you know like this luxury porn stuff But I think what a lot of men don't realize is as you go through this visualization like what does that man look like right? What's this what's this grooming like? What is this clothing like? What is this physique? What's his body language? What are all these other things and then if you can get an idea of what that is? Then you can start progressively working towards that because if the ideal version for you is somebody who Embraces color and draws a little bit more attention and is somebody who is comfortable with that then wearing a dawn draper Gray suit tomorrow is totally antithetical to what your main goal is and so you have to it doesn't matter if like you watch Mad Men You're like this is great. I love the great It doesn't matter if it doesn't actually work with who you are and what your end game is So you have to start with the goal in sight and then work backwards from there. Yeah, yeah Yeah, I thought it was interesting to us Helen George earlier. It was the first time in my life I actually use a comb on my beard. I literally I can use a bar soap on my head. I do the same thing on facial feature I'm not you know, for example in Jack Donovan's talk. He literally talked about on yourself. I haven't been doing it I have been diminishing myself for other purposes and rents and you got you have to start with yourself So, you know as a speaker, I'm finding you guys what you're bringing to the table Terribly important and you know, how how do vets that kind of put all that together? Well, what do you see when you see yourself in the mirror every day or you know You're walking by a building downtown and it's got you know, these windows and you catch your reflection Do you see a man who is taking action and actually doing things or you see? Somebody who's shrunken in on himself and looks average and looks dejected and looks like especially because as we go through these self-improvements If we don't get visual confirmation and feedback then a lot of times it doesn't feel like we're actually making those improvements You may be better with women. You may be better as a father You may be better asserting yourself with your boss. Your finances may be totally turned around But if you don't actually see a difference Then a lot of times those nagging doubts or those times where because I mean progression is not linear You know, what's up and down and everything and so when you get into those valleys You can feel like you haven't made any progress at all But if you can see visual evidence of your progress Then it helps you get through those valleys back up to different peaks And what I found remarkable is this is something you can do immediately. There's there's immediate results, you know My mistake was yesterday. It was you know, I accepted comfort and then what not only did I accept comfort? I knew my mistake and what did I do? Gave other reasons for you to get it rather than stepping out saying you made in there Readdressing that immediately and taking over and so you you know, and I said in my entire you learn through trauma And unless you've experienced that trauma you won't truly honestly change and so, you know, I'm sending her coming You know amongst to you know, I'm a sinner amongst, you know, confessing my sins amongst people who already know I thank you both very much for both of that and knowing that you know Part of that vulnerability is that if I as a speaker can admit that I know these guys behind the cameras can That's how you start and it's at the big first step. I got a beard question for you. Yeah So I go through different phases Fickle with my hair and my beard like I can last maybe like six months. It's like I want to do something totally different and For a long time. I've wanted to grow a beard out a little bit longer But I get to the point where it gets disproportionately weighted Where I get it gets a little bit longer underneath my chin on the right side And so when I see it it drives me crazy But then if I try and trim it then I feel like I'm negating any actual growth or any actual progress So a few years ago I tried growing my hair out really long like the man bun and all that kind of stuff And what I learned is that you just kind of have to go through this phase where you embrace the suck Like you really can't do anything that makes it look good You wear hats a lot or you can just kind of deal with it. Is that the same thing with the beard? I tell guys when I asked them, what is your beard gold? And those and they'll we'll go through my favorite Instagram site called beard for all which is the largest visual beard database on earth and we just scroll through beards and I've been featured on there probably 20 times. It's interesting throughout the different phases of my beard So they have taken whoever is the administrator of the channel has taken a liking to me and I Say find your beard goal and a guy will say I want to look like this or when my beard was big Everyone would point to me you are my beard goal and I'm like, well, then what are you doing here? Why like why are you here? You can't trim your way to a big beard? So that goes into the embrace to suck you're gonna have you got to have a medium beard before you have a big beard It has to be medium first you have to go through the sucky stage or the medium stage You can't just so what and realize whatever shape you put into it early on Just becomes the shape later on now. I started out wanting a boxy or square or beard, right? I regretted that because when it was down to my belly Literally I if you have a beard that big you don't want it flat on the bottom You want it come coming to you want it wizardly? I want to be able to when I stroke my beard go right down to a point But I find myself having to like brush it out and kind of maintain the boxiness But that was 22 months too late. I Could trim a pointed shape into it, but it wouldn't look natural. I wanted something more natural Yeah, so when you trim your beard like this at six months in nine months, it'll be here 12 months It'll be you know, so whatever you do to your think everything's got kind of a delayed reaction You know you're planting seeds for something later, and I I've sent guys away for three months I'm the referral king. I'm like look You know, I don't I don't think I can help you let me give you the name and number of somebody who I think can or You know people are you know, I have a fellow stylist that would say you're sending business away I'm like well, it's cuz I give a damn. I don't want to trim his beard if he wants a long beard I'll see him. I'll see him in you know January That's fine. I'm cool with that. That's okay. So I think You had mentioned tactics Tactical versus strategy strategy is your goal tactics are what you do the steps you take to get to your strategy and everyone's so Tactically oriented. They're they're just stringing together a bunch of tactics thinking it's gonna bring them It's a whole nother tactical beard. Yeah, so it's just I just find that People need to have a goal like one of the things that I did was I found this guy what I did like when my hair turned white fully white I googled big gray beard and just looked at pictures and I was scrolling through Google images And I'm like that's the beard that I want So I did a screenshot and I made it the wallpaper on my phone so every time I got a text or anything Anything on my phone Every time I turn the phone on there was that goal. It helped me kind of stay on target I never ever forget it wouldn't let me forget what my goal was and it just made it easier for me And then when I reached the goal, I thought you know what I think I want to do another two or three inches So I just did that. Oh Let me add this to when it comes to beards beards are like hair There's cowlicks in your face. Yeah, and a lot of guy so many guys might say well My hair seems to be growing faster on this side of my face then this side. I'm like, no, it's not It's growing in a different direction and sticking out more and you think it's Growing faster. So what they will do is they'll take the clippers usually after 11 p.m After a couple beers there. What the fuck I couldn't do it You know that like, you know the one-dimensional mirror thing and I don't care if you have three if you're surrounded by like you The three mirrors you can't do your own damn beard You can't do it. Can't do it because you got one dominant hand and then you got like one duh hand Some people have two So here's the guy like on this side of my face. I got this cowlick where this hair grows up, okay? Okay, it needed to get a foot long before it stopped Sticking up and then gravity just finally brought it down. It's beautiful. I would just like shake it in the wind Embrace the size Or use product or blow dry I can make you can make hair go in any direction you want to blow dry it and then hit it with the cool shop button It'll do anything you want. Okay, talk about that because you brought that up I was because I actually went home looked at them. I you know by my partners one I'm like, we're gonna get better and then not only that you said get your own don't don't share Yeah, don't use the purple hair dryer. Yeah, can you go over that for the people looking at the rate? That may not have actually seen your speech and actually go to it and yeah, you know find the link below type thing guys Get your own products. Okay. Get a manly shampoo Something you know and don't wash your beard with Irish spring Nothing against Irish spring, but you know, yeah beard brand is a great place to start beard washes are mild They're not stripping away natural oils That's an that's a good thing because most guys work so hard at this glorious thing on their face And then they do so much damage with like their wife or girlfriend's product, you know, and they come out smelling like a flower Get your own product get your own tools and Be happy with it, but don't but but then there's a fine line too I mean, I know guys that are taking round brushes and blow drying the ends and all the stuff And I'm like, okay now you just to me. I that's just it's my Opinion that's taking it too far. I mean my goal is to get out of the bathroom as fast as I can in the morning if My girlfriend Partner or wife wants to take 20 minutes. I remember here's a story years ago I'm dating a chick beautiful girl always take forever in the bathroom. She gave me the best answer I go, you know, I used to say if women didn't spend so much time in the bathroom. We'd never check the oil in our cars Right woman's like prepping. I I'm like, how much longer? She's like 15 minutes. I'm like, all right So I open up the hood and I'm checking the oil, you know And I'm thinking if I were dated a woman who didn't wear makeup my engine would seize, you know So I said there I go. Why do you take so long? Cuz wherever we went Just I hear blow dryers and I'm like, what are you like? I'm talking through the door. What are you doing in there? Yeah, and I remember her opening up the door. I'm like I'm like now I see what you're doing in there. That's cool I don't mind it when when she does that but her answer was she says I want to keep you coming back That is the best damn answer So I never complained if a woman takes too long to groom herself to pretty yourself up Well, I love the idea of the fact that you've drawn a line and for you It's at this point where you know, you're you're using the you're using a brush and trying to get everything because I think While we value that in women and one of the reasons why we value that so much in women is because when it comes to like the sexual Marketplace and dating and everything else beauty is a Huge component for what attracts us to women and obviously how we are physically attractive or anything else is big But it's like secondary or tertiary and I think for what most men what they do is they think that it doesn't matter at all Which takes it too far and they do that for fear of turning into the Metrosexual or the primpura or somebody else who conflicts that as a primary value in the attractiveness of men And so what we really want to do is be able to acknowledge that it matters and it demonstrates that we pay attention to detail And that we're aware of things But it's not so important that it supersedes other things like our ability to get things done or our ability because you see that with Clothing all the time where the guy who's too perfect It doesn't look good because again It's it's conflating that value of attractiveness as making it primary as opposed to secondary or tertiary and so you want it to be Properly within the hierarchy rather than totally thrown out the window completely. Yeah, I think being right in the middle is nice It's just one of those things. I think there's so many voices out there. There's so much noise that is Intercepting The expression of manhood and the manhood signals. We're only getting two bars I want a full damn signal like I got into a big argument with a guy And it was and I actually want to work this argument online and just like I want to start What I want to do is I want to do the professional wrestling version of an Instagram fight, you know Hey, all the promotional elements I want to do a video where I'm bad-mouthing him and then he kind of shows up in the back And he just sits there and like watches me And then and then I turn around I'm like But he's like an icon in the hair and beard industry and he challenged me publicly Because I I'm not into glitter beards. Oh, yeah I was gonna ask him beard jewelry So basically what I What I did was I started posting pictures like I I saw this I photoshopped a bunch of tampons on my face The tampon beard, you know just to like take it Let's take things to their extreme All right, and then I and then I posted a picture of me where I photoshopped nuts and bolts I got like now this is a fucking manly beard nuts and fucking nuts and bolts And then I said you might think that I'm nuts, but you're only half right So and that was kind of like my rather than like oh, yeah, you know I'm going back and forth I just said fuck it. I'll post a tampon beard You know and some people were offended Most people are like we fucking like it just made sense. It proved my Anti fucking glitter beard argument. Well, it's another way to subvert traditional masculinity It's a way to say this is a physical and aesthetic Manifestation of masculinity and we're gonna turn it into something that's demonstrative of beauty or femininity or something else And so it's another way to take them in that it takes the the ironic beard and takes it one step further where Masculinity is a big joke and that's what's so frustrating about it. It's not I go to bike nights. I'm a motorcyclist I love motorcycles and I go to bike nights, and I'll see like doctors lawyers and chiropractors Wearing like leather chaps that have like you can tell they bought them like the day before and they walk around Leathers not broken yet. They'll walk around and then I'll see like some like motherfucker with a beard like yours He's wearing a fucking kilt. He's got tattoos and scars and shit like that, you know, and I'm like, yeah, you know But I could tell the guys who were just like the weekend warriors like I want to be a man for a weekend So and I'm thinking you know what you look like the fucking village people douchebag You know what I mean? It's like you don't like seriously Don't like if you're if you're a pencil pusher and sitting at a fucking desk all week long Mm-hmm, and then go and buy a Harley and then like leather chaps That's not gonna make you any more of a man How about hit the fucking gym right and raise the t-level a little bit, okay? Yeah, or sit in my chair and let me just slap the shit out of you Put a hot towel on your face and melt your skin off No, I I just I'm just so tired of this whole We're 30 to 40 years and to discover your feminine side bullshit, and I don't like that Okay, I got nothing against big fat lesbians, okay, but I heard a comedian This is not my line. I heard a comedian say I finally discovered my feminine side and it's a big fat lesbian Okay, I got it So but I don't fuck the feminine side We're made male and female for a fucking reason. I don't have to like listen. I'm single now So I have to cook. Okay. I have to fucking cook All right If I ever get married again if I ever first of all There are people who have heart attacks when they find out that I get married if that ever happens again after what I went through but You know if something gets a rip in it. I got to sew it right my like the things that are Feminine traditionally feminine. I got to do just a I got to cook. I got to sew you know, I mean I don't care I'll I'll do it utility. It's utility exactly, but I'm not running around and it's interesting too I don't have and we were talking about this the first night that I got here. I don't have to be feminine and Boy, we're gonna get it some Do it it's a private channel you total dog get into it go as far as you're comfortable as going All right. All right. I Was getting like I had talked about the effect of feminism on like gay dudes in America America is and I want to say gay. I don't mean it in a discriminatory sense I said America's the fucking gayest country I've ever known It's the only country where gay guys act feminine in other countries. I can't tell I can go to a fucking Place in America anywhere and tell you who the gay guys are jack Donovan's gay. I didn't know that I was not gonna throw that out there. I was not because I didn't know in absolutely He's out about it. Like yeah, I wasn't sure but you just sit down and go The guy I jump out the fucking window, you know, precisely. Yeah, you look at that in the manifestation that you get and he's gay And you're just like bravo and it was interesting here and talk about you know a women and feminism and our world knowing his orientation and you're going holy crap and he's and you still look at it He's still talking masculinity. Yeah, you know with none of the the feminine nature of anything that that's the thing You don't have to you don't have to discover your feminine side It's not necessary. You're a fucking man and people say well What does that mean? And I'm like listen, it's like pornography. I have to I don't I know it when I see it I shouldn't need to explain it. Well, what's so sad is then all of a sudden that becomes conflated with being Anti-femininity. Yeah, but what's so so I'm very happily married. We've been married for six and a half years We've got three kids. We function in a very traditional marriage. Yeah And the fact that I can focus on being masculine and double down on my strengths And my wife can focus and double down on her strengths of being feminine Means that my children get to be raised in a full and complete family and get to derive the benefits of masculinity and femininity as opposed to like both of us trying to negate that and somehow become Androgynous or one being the victim or the enemy of the other It's like they're they're equally important, but they're not equally important in me Yeah, and that's this conflation of the individual versus the family or anything else or I am pro-masculinity For me or for us as men therefore obviously I'm anti-feminine. It's like of course. I'm not anti-feminine. It's ridiculous Did did you have that or did you have that on your side? I absolutely had it on my side That was brilliant. That was so brilliant. I mean that just yeah I wrote that down put it like 20 exclamation marks after that Well, and you have to learn to manage that, you know and in our natural state femininity and masculinity are compatible They're they're supposed so compatible. They have to be for a toast to work. We need both Society's got in the way of that society's got in the way that culture and what we allow in so absolutely Oh, yeah I mean there's times where a single woman has to quote-unquote man up Because maybe she has a deadbeat husband or boyfriend that that gave her a child and she's got to fill the void And yeah, but no one said ideal. You know, you're absolutely right. No one says to her. Oh, you're being too masculine or you're being too much Hell no, and we don't stop preaching the ideal just because there are exceptions in which other people have to feel right right, right? Yeah We can't rise up to the ideal 100% of the time everybody equally doesn't mean that we stop preaching the ideal Yeah, I believe that I believe that Yeah You know it so going back to Beards and masculine style Everyone Has to realize that their beard and facial hair and their look and their hair is going to have an impact It's going to elicit a response and it's not a neutral response It's not working against you or it's working for you. Absolutely. No neutrality. Absolutely, right? Yeah, well, I had a guy once sit in my chair Tat you know the guys with tattoos up their necks. All right, I'm not one of them I you know, I have a few like nice tattoos shoulder, but the guy, you know, that's like kind of like in your face Okay, big beard tattoos up the neck had a couple things on his face. I didn't want to ask him how many people he killed You know those little score marks there and I said, so what do you do for a living he goes? I'm a bank manager I'm like You know and I'm like damn it I'm like how you know and and he and I got to know each other really well He'd come in once a month for haircut and beard trim and I would say You know, I I love the question. How's that working for you to me? That's like that is to me That's the question of the past two decades. How's that working for you because people will either Support what they do or say or think or it will Make them or or reveal the asshole within There's a there's a title of a new book Find your inner asshole But how's it work and he says he goes at first people were taken back by I said, I know I was I mean I like if you told me that you were the head of like the local friggin Hells Angels I would have believed you right, but he's a bank manager and I but after talking to me the kind of a gentle soul and His tattoos were more artistic It wasn't like all fucking skulls and like blood dripping and six six six and all this shit It was like cool stuff, and I'm like, all right, okay I kind of get it now and there's people that embrace this dude and how I you know I said yesterday, you know dressed like the people you want to attract. You know what? Tattooed motherfuckers go to banks too, right? And you know what his following is sick at this bank I mean the people that walk in there are not just like little old ladies with money in purses I mean he has like all the all like the record store owners all like the tattoo Hundred percent it's unbelievable. It's either that or works for him, right? It was either that or who's who's pink? Are you running? You know, right? If it's a hand or the triad, you're like, okay Yes, yes, but so what's so interesting about that though is that you had the opportunity to get past the initial impression Because of the conversation and for us we will try and say well You shouldn't judge a book by its curves like that's ridiculous because we always have to try and assess and threat assess And I like if we were trying if we weren't doing pattern recognition within our brains, they would explode We have to take these mental shortcuts, but real maturity is being able to say okay I've made an assessment based on this information and then as I get new information It can either confirm or supersede what that previous information was but for him that image is still there And if he doesn't get the opportunity to tell a deeper story then mr. Prison Gang tattoo Then that's the only story that he's told But because you guys had more time and he was able to give you more depth Yeah, that's where it actually ends up working out because rather than being a one-dimensional man It actually shows multiple dimensions and how these different components of who he is can work congruently together into something else And so that's where even if you were to leverage that with this style where he takes the tattoos and everything else And then maybe he's got a very well manicured beer So you've got kind of this rugged this this rebellious component with something that's traditional and disciplined and evocative and then he's wearing a classic suit and All of a sudden it's a multi-dimensional story. That's being told as opposed to if he shows up with You know dark jeans motorcycle boots a chain wallet and a white beater Then it just tells that one particular Components and so leveraging all of these different things you're grooming your style your tattoos anything else and using all of those in conjunction with each other is a really Really effective way to be able to not just get people through one aspect of their Assumptions of what the cover of your book is but be able to tell something it's a little broader Can you imagine if that if they were dealing with a you know Crypto technology as far as the the currency you know like you know any any that stuff you know whether it's Bitcoin I'm a Bitcoin banker or a big coin veg hunman You're like okay that completely stop talk to maternity it makes sense to a traditional banking with pillars and calm and you know Totally make sense. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yep. So really is it's that ability to think proactively and Then use those different things in contrast or in congruence with each other Because I think a lot of times we do we just think that I I like this one style I mean so going back to like the Game of Thrones example I love that one of the things that's limiting about that show is you get guys who come in and say I want my hair and my beard to be like this I don't have clients who say I want to dress like that. Yeah, because we understand it's like you can't throw on for coats Yeah, you know But how do you take those principles of something and then kind of convert that into a modern format and one of The ways to do that is through hair and grooming and then you can talk about other things or express other things through your style Through your body language tattoos or whether or not you have them all those other variables that work together As opposed to everything having to be the exact same story You know I was reading something that I'm a big fan of preppers and EDC and all that kind of And I watched the video the other day on the concept of the gray man Okay, yeah, don't be the guy with the right standing with the Nike shirt Yeah, you know I mean a killer, you know if he's holding 20 people hostage You know the guy who doesn't have any super outstanding memorable features Will probably live yeah or has a stance a better chance of living like you with a Nike shirt get over here You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I think I think for day-to-day stuff I think some people think that way and increasingly so in society. I think that that could be a good thing But the purpose the purposeful way Dressing and grooming with the end in mind is so important. I mean if you're You know, we just had a tragedy in Las Vegas right overnight, right? Yeah, okay cowboy hats I mean it was Jason Aldeen and something that type of thing And I'm just I'm trying to I'm still trying to make sense of that Yeah, it's to really you know, I mean it just you know, we know very little but I'm thinking Who how we look Creates winners and creates victims, right? You know what I mean? So how you dress can invite trouble, right? Or it can repel trouble, right? You know, it's not like you can say and I know that this is not what you're saying But it's not like you can say that Somehow those people were responsible for being shot because they wore cowboy hats, right Right going there at all and at the same time you have to be able to look at the consequences and the prepper community is such an interesting one Because they a lot of times you have guys who can take you take it to such an extreme that they don't thrive and Tell the world and right and they're with constantly waiting for it and honestly That's been one of my criticisms on Anything else aesthetically where it's like yes in that one situation in that one environment the consequences of Standing out versus blending in are very drastically different but for 99.9% of the rest of your life may be for a lot of men the consequences of Blending in versus standing out are more negative than positive or something It's taking that proactive approach because I'm not going to give a prescriptive answer and say the only way to dress Well, and the only way to leverage your appearance to get ahead in life is to stand out Right, right now. There are plenty of men who are much better served by blending in and that may be from a Tactical like a physically tactile tactical dangerous perspective or it may just be that you don't want to be the CEO You don't want to be the entrepreneur You don't want to shake the boat you just want to be able to just do your thing and just stay under the radar You know and so for men like that It does you know good to dress up and stand out in another way, but to be able to say that This this prescription is a you know one size fits all yeah in our industry This is the only answer that works and you have to be able to look at negative consequences Positive consequences weigh those against each other and then make the right decision about what action you're going to pursue going forward Yeah, I think context is everything, you know Remember dress for success. I mean that I don't I don't know what addition They're in now, but I remember when it first came actually when it first came out. I was just starting to be interested in style and Lapels and ties were really wide. That's how far back I go with Yeah, exactly. So I got rid of all those Crap But it's interesting like you see you see certain things go in style like for instance camo Camo is fucking military, right? Yeah, like how can that be style? You know what I mean? Like I wonder like how can camo be style and the and the EDC and prepper community You know, they got the cargo pants that are filled with like every fucking survival tool in the world and and like They're like fucking the diver like every little like every little crevice and everything in their clip that men belt Exactly and and I'm finding that sometimes those things become styles And I've always like stayed away from super trendy shit like just Get away from it. Like was it this past summer Nordstrom's had ripped jeans with fake mud on them? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like $400 right. Yeah, but within the right tribe within the right context Wearing something like that to signal Status or relevance or something else can't actually be to your advantage now to the majority of men Absolutely, not. It's a big joke. I fall into that group. We fall into that. Yeah But for the right men within the right context Those pants may be a good purchase. Well, I would I was working at a place where right across the hall I was working in a damn mall and that's one of my favorite lines as I work in a damn mall I don't work in it anymore was Is it religion true religion 400 dollar jeans I'm like and I just went to look at the 400 dollar I said I'm thinking to myself these things like better make me damn dinner or something I mean and I just and I'm looking at $400 jeans and I'm like You know and it was almost like do you remember the four eyes? Glasses commercial where the the salesman would say to the person with these glasses talk French remember that? These fucking jeans $400 for I'm like now. I'll be honest I I kind of felt the same way style and everything else I walked into a store and it was an area and they had it behind glass It was a museum piece and it was coloring everything else and it just sort of drew my eye and I in all honesty I went to steal ideas architecturally right and so I go over it and I'm looking at this shirt and it was at You know, I saw it 50 feet away As I keep coming up to it. There was more and more detail more and more detail This was a $2,000 shirt and I looked at that and I got it You know if I had the money and you look at it and go if this was going to be a suit And you look at it and the the the sales clerk was phenomenal Realized I was studying and said come here. Let me open it up Open up turn the sleeves the detailing was impeccable and you look at it and go Who is the designer? They told me and they go the rest of their collections over here I've been a fan ever since yeah, and so the shirts I'm wearing came from their line And you know it and you sit down and go I'm still not getting it right But I I got it and it was a matter of expression and I treated it like a suit Right, you know and I said I don't have the money, but I'm like that's that's going the direction I wanted to go. Well, it's all about where you see that value correct, right? I've worked in the industry for a few years. I worked for a custom suit company and We did suits from $700 to $10,000 and one of the ways that I learned to have the conversation with clients When we would have guys who would come in and say why would anybody spend $10,000 on a suit is that More than anything else you're paying for the time that goes into creating this kind of garment And then the second thing is you're paying for the scarcity Whether that's the scarcity of like how many are actually may or the scarcity of the material Because you can look at something like uh, there's a material I mean we talk about cashmere and wool or anything else But there's a material called the cunha and it's from an animal called the cunha which they're based out in South America Highly highly regulated how many of these animals you can actually like harvest the fur from and things like that And it's softer than cashmere, but it wears cooler and it's more durable And so for men who are interested in that and they function within the tribe Where cunha is valuable and they value the the tactical or like the tactile function of it and the durability of it A $10,000 suit totally worth it to somebody else Not at all, but when you get into other places where because there are some brands I would pay $400 for a pair of jeans absolutely There's a company out there called uh drakes of london that they do them and it's Japanese salvage denim and the cut on them is perfect and the time that goes into all of it And for me that's worth it But when you're paying $400 for a pair of ed hearty jeans Just because they say ed hearty, right? That's a whole different ball. How much of that as you're buying into a tribe Exactly. Yeah, it's your it's your your cover charge for a club or have jeans made for you. Yeah Yeah, that's 1500 bucks or something You know what I mean do a custom and go that route and reap all those other advantages as opposed to Just buying to wear another man's name and live a mediated life through his accomplishment You know you're piggybacking off of this other man. Here's something I wanted to ask you now I am I've attracted an interesting bunch of women and When you get older you attract Like I'm a normal guy and not a perv. I don't look what people would say look at that like guys my age, you know You know look at a 25 year old girl and drool or make some comment I'm like that could be your fucking daughter, dude. Come on. You know what I mean? Like I don't I don't look at to me. There's like a threshold I don't like you don't go on a dating site and like lower the age down to like Lower the age of what you're looking for down to 21 for a guy that's almost 60 years old for me, I Do I people say don't you want to like a young and women always say this They go He left me for a younger woman or are you like the rest of the guys that are just interested in younger? I'm like no, I want to I want to appear I want someone who listened to the same music I listened to I don't want to I don't want to check who grew up in a different generation that I got a teacher I don't want a daddy here. I don't want to have to you know, show her anything I want I want us to appreciate each other I would love a woman my age Who looks great for her age? Yeah, I don't care if she looks young like look young for your age I don't care about that. I want you to look good for your age period Yes, that's different than looking young, right, right? So just rock what you have But I find that when I went gray it makes me appear a little bit older when I'm dressed a certain way I come across more older and I've attracted some gray hair Like there's this weird movement amongst A certain population. Are you familiar with iris apfel? she's uh She's a She she's an interior designer who designed many of the rooms in the white house over 50 years. I think iris is close to 100 now She lives in new york city. She's one of those eclectic ladies that you know thrifts like nothing matches Right the big round you'd know if you see her. She's iconic. Yeah, right. Yeah, big black room. Yep. Yep. Yeah, you know I mean in thousands of like yeah Just and then thick and they're thick they're not tiny. Yes, they're massive and she's been dressing She was the first woman in america to wear jeans. Oh, okay. Okay. That was a big deal Yeah, so like talking about being ahead of your time. Yeah, that doesn't resonate with a lot of people you would understand that, right? uh, and now there's a lot of these Embellishing women it's kind of interesting This total boho kind of thing that actually lived through many Phases and and went you know and never got rid of anything and they're just basically wearing stuff that they've worn for and it's kind of interesting like and i'm attracting a lot of these people and The whole the whole concept of just you know, like my thing is this I I when I was married I I would get dressed like I have a female roommate right now. So I have some female Feedback in my life on a daily basis. I did this when I was married and I'd do this with my roommate. I'll get dressed in the morning and You know and I'll she might be in the kitchen. I come downstairs and I go does this match and she goes no I'm like good That way it was like a green light for me to wear it to work because where I was working When I had the big beard I could just boho out and it worked in my favor But I noticed that when I took the beard off the big beard off Boho did not work for me. Gotcha. So now I got to go back to fitted I started working. It's weird too. I started working out more interesting, you know your beard changed and everything else Everything else with it, right? I mean, I couldn't even see my chest or belly when I had the beard now. I kid. I'm like shit Yeah The beard hug Is there a female or a male version of These boho women and for those that are listening that just means bohemian eclectic style There is and I think one of the one of the best examples of that is somebody like johnny depp where you see You know, he's got kind of the wispy three musketeers mustache and go teething the big fedora the stacked bracelets the The different like native american jewelry and all these other things And it's all about even goldman who was here at this at this event where he's wearing Shambray shirts and he's got on a felt fedora, but then he's got on a necklace That's ayahuasca and he's got tiger's eye rocks and his uh in his bracelets and These are men who are kind of vagabonds and they gather stories And then they tell their stories through their clothing and they very much live that bohemian My purpose in life is to experience and to grow and to do either as opposed to settle down and and do those Those kinds of things so absolutely. Yeah, there's absolutely. What's interesting though is There's also like the urban outfitters You know contrived version of that That is just like, you know, you buy it at the mall and it looks it's that's what you know That's what most hipsters are as you buy it at the mall And there's nothing really behind it and you can tell you can tell the difference between somebody who has You know a scoop neck kind of ratty t-shirt that they picked up from forever 21 And it was pre designed that way Versus somebody who has one that was picked up while they were on a fishing trip in costa rica And the the holes in the riding has come from the fact that this guy's a little bit gross And that's the only shirt he's worn for the last month, you know, and whether you embrace that or not There's absolutely that component there and it's that that version of authenticity versus contrivance that you're you're buying fashion Versus developing style because it's actually, you know part of what you've done throughout your whole life But I was going to ask you about um, you know, micro from dirty jobs Mike rose calm his reaction to the the ripped jeans with the mud on him was he goes If you want ripped jeans with mud on him go dig a ditch for a day, you know And he's like it's interesting watching him on talk shows now He's got like the ratty jeans on and i'm wondering are they really ratty or did somebody ratty them up for him? You know what I mean? He's got the t-shirt the baseball, you know, like the the john deere Baseball cap kind of thing and this is a guy that used to sell diamonds on qvc, right? Which is interesting, but I would love and he's coming out with like he's pushing the trades which I It's awesome. Right. Yes. Yeah. I would love to see him here next year. Yeah, be on stage micro would be awesome But to me for me I think he's masculine. I think he's to me. He exudes manhood Um, and if I saw him in a suit like if he came to this next year micro if you're listening, we'd love to have I will private message you and um Don't worry. My man. I'll hook you up so If he came here, I don't think he would be in a suit. No, no, I shouldn't not uh, but that also doesn't mean that he shows up in Holy jeans, right? You know with uh john deere cap and look like you work in a dug ditches all day There's a way to be able to dress in a way that's appropriate for the environment in the event Yes, but he's still congruent with who he is and the way in which he interacts, right? Yeah, right And so maybe it's something just as simple as um Wearing a pair of like Duluth trading co or car heart Pants and then he's got on a button-up shirt that is in a material that's traditionally more rugged So a chambray or a denim or a flannel a flannel or something else and then maybe rather than it being a sport coat It's something like a chore coat or a barn coat or something else like that And then he wears that while he's presenting and then when he's out mingling with everybody else because it's florida You ditch the coat and then you know And so he can do it in a way that's still very much like blue collar and will be seen and recognized as he is one of us By the blue collar tribe But it's still appropriate for where he is and what it is that he's actually doing guys. I hate to do this I really do uh, we have extended our time Love to have you guys back continue this again Last parting thoughts. Where can we find you the gray bailey gray bailey youtube channel and george bruno Dot com and what can our viewers do to support you? Subscribe like and share the youtube mantra. Yeah, it really is it really is So you can find most of my stuff at masculine dash style dot com I'm also on youtube and uh instagram and twitter. You can look me up on all of those It's at tanner guzzy, which is t a n n e r G u z y and the best way to support me along with like Like subscribe and share is uh, I've got a book coming out talking all about the Philosophical and sociological relationship between masculinity and aesthetics and so uh when that is available I'd love to have you guys pick that up and it will change your whole perception on clothing I'll be looking for that personally really will be this is a tanner guzzy george bruno Socrates signing off for 21 radio. Thank you for John Innes