 Welcome to another episode of In the Zone. I am your host, Chris Broussard. We've got an outstanding show for you today. Ralph Sampson is in the house. I can't wait to interview the big man who was just tremendous. For all you millennials that don't remember him, you got to go check out some of his stats, some of his highlights. Only injuries could stop Ralph Sampson. And then, of course, we got Jason McIntyre stopping by for an episode of Knock Down Jay. But first, you know I have to hit you with a list. So here is this week's top 10. What a week for the LA Lakers. Kobe Bryant's two jerseys retired at the Stateful Center. I was there. The atmosphere was tremendous. And everybody afterwards was talking about where does Kobe Bryant rank all time? Which got me to thinking, let me put together my top 10 list. So checking in at number 10, it is none other than a Kobe rival, Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs, five-time NBA champion, best power forward of all time, the anchor of what became a tremendous long-running dynasty in San Antonio. At number nine, Larry Bird, six foot nine inches, tremendous three-point shooter, second best shooter in history, according to me, behind Steph Curry. He was the precursor to all of these stretched sports. He was a three-man, also a four-man, and by the way, the greatest trash talker in history. At number eight, Bill Russell. I couldn't deny 11-ring. Some people might think I put him too low. Didn't have the great individual numbers offensively, but arguably the greatest defensive player in the league, battling Wilk Chamberlain, Nate Thurman, Walt Bellamy, all these great centers. And he was winning every single time. At number seven, it's your man of the day of the week, Kobe Bryant. Yes, Kobe Bryant, 81 points in a game, nine straight 40-point games, 62 points in three-quarters. That was one more than his opponent's whole team, the Dallas Mavericks, and of course, five NBA championships, two times he repeated as champion, Kobe Bryant, you can't deny it. His teammate at number six, Shaquille O'Neal. I picked Shaq over Kobe, because if I had to choose one to start a team with, it would be the big man, Shaq Diesel, absolutely dominant for the bulk of his career, the first several, you know, decade and a half. But then that three-year stretch where he three-peded as champion with Kobe, 36 points, 15 rebounds in the finals. Then at number five, Wilk Chamberlain. Here's what I call the NBA record book. The biography of Wilk Chamberlain. I mean, that's how dominant this dude was statistically. 50 points, 26 rebounds, a game one year. Then the next season, 44, 45 points, 24 rebounds a game. I mean, his numbers are astronomical. We will never see them past or equal again. And of course, the hundred points in one game. At number four, Magic Johnson, best passer of all time. The precursor of all these big point guards, even guys like James Harden, who really aren't true point guards. We had never before, Magic, seen a guy that size running the show and doing the magnificent no-look behind the back, between the legs, passes that he did. Do yourself a favor and check out a Magic Johnson highlight. Oh, he played 12 years, made it to the finals, nine of those years and won five times. At number three, his teammate, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, six MVP awards, that's the most in history, six NBA championships and the greatest shot of all time. The sky hook was unstoppable. It allowed him to play well past his prime at an effective level. So much so that he was 41 years old when he won his last championship. At number two, LeBron James, yes, already. Look, he's played, he's in his 15th year. He's already played more games than Magic. Larry Byrne and Michael Jordan. If he retired tonight, he would still have a full outstanding career. Three titles, I mean, the size of Carl Malone, passes like a point guard. Now he's hitting three pointers. Can't shoot free throws that well, but hey, he's human, LeBron James number two. And number one, of course, the goat. Just about everybody's goat, Michael Jordan, six-time NBA champion, 10-time scoring leader, 10 straight times led the league in scoring, broke all types of conventional wisdom. You can't build a dynasty around a shooting guard. Oh, well, here comes Jordan. You can't lead the league in scoring and win championships. Oh, but here comes Jordan. 30 points a game to him, which was his career average, was like what other all-stars did at 20 points. He could get 30 points in his sleep, average 37 points one year, 35 points another year, 32 points, eight assists and eight rebounds another year. Michael Jordan, the all-time goat, but no surprise there. I'm joined by Hall of Famer Ralph Sampson. It's great to have you here in the zone. Yeah, I'd love to be in it. Wish I could get back in the zone, but it's good. The basketball zone that is, it's good. When I saw, we saw each other at the airport about a year ago and we started talking, we had lunch together and I was saying, I really wanted to get you on the podcast because to me, you were like a forerunner to all of these seven footers now that play on the perimeter. You could dribble, you could shoot jump shots and at the time when you were doing it, some people kind of looked down at it. They wanted you in the post. Talk about that and how you, do you see yourself as kind of a precursor to these guys? Well, people have said that time and time again and I didn't pay attention to it over the year, but now I do a little bit more. Well, you know, I had a coach, Bill Fitch and the crew. You know, we had Carol Dawson that was a converse rep, you know, as assistant coach. And then Rudy Tomjohn, which was a scout. But Rudy never wanted to be in practice. He wanted to get away from the politics of everything. But you know, big guy, you shooted three-pointer like, get your tail in the post. You can't shoot a three-pointer. A seven-footer, you shouldn't be a shoot-through. A seven-footer, you can't dribble. If you turn it over, then what happens? But you know, my mentality is I learned from high school because of the boxing one and his own defense. I never get the ball. I had to go get it and dribble up. My high school coach would let me do it in practice every day. So you would bring the ball up the court. I would bring the ball up the court just because I couldn't get the ball. And then, you know, because I get mad and then in the game, I turn it over and like, you know, stop it. So if you're gonna do it, we're gonna teach you how to do it in practice. So it started in high school. And then in college, we're the same thing, trying to be able to shoot, you know, Coach Allen was like, let me get the first long shot out of my system, you know, to get it out the way. So I just kind of evolved and then in the NBA, you know, we just saw highlights and trying to figure some stuff out as well. I mean, being able to dribble a hell of a ball cause you're not gonna get it any other way. And that's the evolution of the day's game. Big guys, there's no post-ups. The game is a three-point game. And everybody, you know, wants to shoot a three and you gotta shoot it efficiently and effectively. So it's evolved. And I wish I was playing now. I was gonna ask you, would you have preferred to play today versus the air? I mean, I love both errors, but you know, I guess with the skill set that I had, you know, what could I have done today? I don't know. But I look at, I could post up, I could shoot a three, I could dribble, you know, the fan block shots run the court. I mean, it's a fun time to play the game of basketball and the skills I had, I probably would have, would have hopefully been pretty good right now. So I don't know how closely you followed the guys, but you got Chris D'Aspore-Zingus, seven foot three in New York, Yannis Adedicumbo in Milwaukee, Joel L. Embiid who even shoots some threes. Kevin Durant even is basically a seven footer. Who do you think you would have played, like if of those guys or maybe there's somebody else out there? Well, like all of them have a different, as you mentioned, have a different perspective, a different ability to play the game. I love Kevin Durant's game, but he doesn't have a post-up game, typically. Nabebe has a post-up game and he has a little bit of an outside game, but more of a post-up game. And nobody's able to stop him on the 12th of his size. But the Greek Freak is the one that you watch every day. Once you get that jump shot a little bit, but he can post up, he can run the court, but his, I watched him play the other day in his tenacity, just going to get a loose ball. Being active is a little bit better than most of those guys right now. And I think over the next year or so, whatever you can see him evolve and see how really, really good he is. Who do you, if you had to choose one big man in the league today, who would it be? I think it's a combination of the Greek Freak and what he's able to do and Nabebe and what he's able to do if he can stay healthy. Again, Kevin Durant is the top one right now. Big guy, I think, but he probably doesn't consider himself to be the big guy, but it's size-wise he is. But his demeanor, his tenacity, his heart, you can't beat that. Now your perimeter skills enabled you and Hakim Elijah on to play well together. And I say all the time, you had about three and a half healthy years in the NBA. I think your injury, it not only obviously changed the course of your career, but I really think it changed the course of the NBA history because in your third year, your second year with Hakim, you guys beat the Showtime Lakers four to one in the Western Conference finals, got beat by Boston in 86 in the finals four to two. But do you feel that, like, the Lakers went on to win two more titles, 87 and 88, with you guys healthy, I don't know if they would have done that. How good could that team have been if you would have remained healthy? Me remaining healthy was one of the keys, but you guys understand we had no point guards. Yeah, was it Robbery? Robbery was our point forward. That point forward evolved at that point in time because we had our point guards go down with some personal incidents. And so, you know, riding McCray and Robbery was our point guards. Mitchell Wiggins played with us as well, and so we had no point guards. So we would have had a point guard and I'd stay healthy. I don't think too many people would have stopped us at that point in time. But again, the evolution of the game today with big guys, you know, I was the first guy to bring weights to the NBA locker room. You were? Yeah, Houston had no ways. Oh, you lift weights, you get big and bulky. You'll, you know, you'll just jump, mess your jump shot up, whatever. So if I'd have maintained that physical skill level on and off the court and with the evolution of what they have today, it'd have been a different story. Now that 86 Boston team that beat you guys, a lot of people think that might be the best team ever. Do you feel that way? Or what are your thoughts on that? I mean, they played well. I mean, Parrish, McKay, or Byrd, obviously unstoppable as far as the way they played. I don't think they're the best ever, but they're ranking it probably at top five. You know, if you look at the history of the league itself, those three guys, all Hall of Fame guys played well. But, you know, magical say, you know, since we beat them, it made him more hungry to come back and they ended up winning two in a row. So it made him hungry the following year to go back and then have to play Boston again and defeat them. So that era, Laker Celtics obviously was the dominant team, but best ever is hard for me to figure out who's the best ever or the best team ever. You played against all of the best players in the 80s, including Michael Jordan in college, even in pros too, but who do you think is the best player of all time? Well, you know, I gotta stay with the big guy. So it depends on how you define the best. If it's championships, it's Bill Russell. Coach, I mean, so in the area he played in, he played against Welk, you know, played in the era. So I think the number one is Bill Russell. And then you can kind of pick and choose who's second, third after that. And then, you know, I always liked Welk just because of Welk average, double, double, average 20 rebounds. I don't care what area you played in with him. I mean, you can average what he did. So from a big guy, I like the big guys. You played Jordan in college. Did you have, I mean, he obviously was good in college, but could you foresee what he became at all at that time? Well, I tell a story of, you know, we play them down in Carolina, and he steals the ball from our point guard. They were down, and they put him on the point guard to defend. And so he steals the ball a couple of times, and he goes down, dunks it, and right, and then they get up in the game, and they end up winning the game. So you can see flashes of it. And I know he says all the time that only one that held him back was Dean Smith. But when you had Jordan Perkins, and he had those guys, cast the characters on the team, that, you know, it's not enough balls for all those guys to play, especially in the college game. But you can see flashes of it, but you didn't expect it, obviously, to be who he became after that. I tell people all the time, he, you know, he could score 60 points against Boston and still lose. And that was great. But until he understood the game itself, and then they got some pieces around him with the triangle and started to make his teammates better, then it became to me, that's Michael Jordan, not before that, before he scored 60 points, and had his shoes and all that kind of stuff as well. That's just for flash. But when he started to learn the game and understand it, I think that's the Michael Jordan that people can respect. How good, because I don't think people fully appreciate how good Larry Bird was. You played against him, obviously. How good was he? Larry, you know, Rodney McCray had to guard him. And, you know, we would try to beat Larry to the gym. We'd go to Boston, play in the garden. You know, you'd go up to the service elevator, had rats and roaches and all the kind of stuff. You'd go up and you're gonna lock them. It's hot. You know, they did all the tricks. But Larry would always come to the game, you know, a couple of hours early to get his shots up. So we would try to beat him right here. And Robert Reed would try to get to the gym and beat him. They never could. Because he was in the gym a couple of hours before the game started. And working on this game, working the shots, getting his mindset right. So I think mentally tough, and you know, he wasn't a great athlete, but I think he was mentally tough to know what his skill set, what he could do, what he couldn't do. And he used it to the best of his ability. He became, you know, a Hall of Famer and one of the best players that ever played the game. Now he's, people have told me he was the biggest trash talker ever too. Did you hear him on the court talking trash? He would talk shit. You know, it's all day long. He was, you know, saying your face or you know, I'm coming at you. But very quietly, it wasn't flamboyant, like Gary Payton or somebody like that. But you know, he would whisper and talk to you and say, I'm coming to get you or whatever. I got this, whatever. He would fake the ball one way and say in your face and this stuff like that. But again, that's this tough mindset he had. Who was the toughest player you played against? Oh, I tell people in that era, that question's been asked a number of times. I think the toughest player for me was myself. Because one night you gotta play Kareem. One night you playing Robert Pairs. One night you playing Moses Malone. One night you playing Street Rollins. One night you playing, you know, James Donaldson. So if you wasn't up every night mentally that you would get your tailbeat. So all those guys will get, but I didn't like the Buck Williams. I didn't like the undersized big man. The Maurice Lucas's that were powerful to play center because they wanted to beat you up every night. So I hated those guys to play against. But I loved the centers because I could run them up down the court. Artist Gilmore's become a good friend. I hated to play against artists because he was the strongest human being that you could possibly ever see. He would take a Kimmel Arju on and put his left hand on him and just pick him up and move him anywhere he wanted to move him because he was that strong. So artists, you know, strong, human, love him to death, but we always wanted to dunk on artists. Rodney McCrae, he's just a big guy and he would take you out. But Rodney McCrae said, one game that I need to dunk on artist Gilmore and he finally got him but took him a couple of years to do that. But, you know, artist is a great guy but he's one of the strongest people I know. You mentioned all those centers. I mean, that was the best era of big men. And then, you know, Patrick Ewing and others came in later. How do you, can you even compare how a teams back then would play against the teams today? Like who might win a game of the best teams back then versus the best teams today with the three pointer? Well, I'm sure that, you know, you look at the Steph Curry's and the three point shot, whatever, and he can shoot it from half court. But can you imagine either Thomas defending Steph Curry or Gary Payton? They let you get physical. Right, it gets physical back then. Greatest player there is, but hand checking and all this kind of stuff. I don't think they would have done what they do today but they would have been still effective and they would have played well. But I think the teams back then would have killed cause of the mindset, cause of the mental toughness. You know, I tell people, when I played against the Lakers and they had Marvie Lucas, he would come jump ball and just hit me in the chest. Take an L ball, I'm here. Just from, the game ain't started, you know? So those guys would have never, you know, you do that today, like, okay, great, what's going on? The Flager. Exactly. But the mindset back then, I think it's tougher than the guys today. Now, you guys have super teams too. I mean, you and a team as a super team, obviously the Lakers, the Celtics, the Sixers had great players. How do you, not on the court, but just do you think the super teams today are similar or is it a whole different dynamic cause of the way they come together? Well, that's why it's a super team because the way, the structure, there's not enough teams with great players. So now you have to, I even become a super team. Back then, imagine, you had three good players, Magic, Bird, you know, with the teams, Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, super team, the Celtics with Parrish and Mikael, Ainge, Dennis Johnson, the Sixers with Julius and, you know, they had Moses and they, so there was always super teams back then. Atlanta with Tree, Rollins, Dominique, you know, they had super teams back then. It just evolution of the day's game and social media and things that's happening that now Kevin Durant leaves and goes to go to the state. Now, as a super team or the Brown leaves and goes to Miami, as a super team, not too many teams have those type players anymore. So it's kind of warded down today as far as the league standpoint, my concern. And the teams that don't have super players, you don't never hear about the Utah's and they can never build a super team cause there's not enough players that are super players at this point. How do you feel about what Kevin Durant did going to, you know, 73-win team and then finally winning the championship? Well, you know, not a lot of people liked it in the beginning, especially the Oklahoma City Thunder. And I was telling people as well, can you imagine Oklahoma had Westbrook, Durant and Hardin? Whoever did you imagine that it should have been far and long time ago, right? And so I would try to keep that together from that standpoint. But, you know, KD was like to me, let me see what this year is going to be like before he left Oklahoma City. If we can't win, you're not bringing me any other help. I gotta figure out time for me to make a move. He makes the move. No one really likes it, but they play really well together. But in the finding moments in the playoff where he had to show up, he showed up. And so, you know, I gained much more respect. I respect him anyway, but I gained much more respect then because he showed up, he played MVP. He did what he had to do. He won the championship. That's what it's about. You and King were dominant, McHale and Parrish dominant, you know, even David Robinson and Tim Duncan later were dominant. I'm looking at New Orleans, DeMarcus, Cousins, Anthony Davis. They're just struggling to stay up 500. Why do you think, I mean, those are two of the best big men in the league. Why do you think they can't be dominant? I think they can be. I love Alvin Gentry as a coach, but you gotta put them in the right situation. You know, now the game has evolved from a post-up game to a three-point game. Buggy, which everybody called him, you know, wants to shoot a three, wants to have the ball. Anthony Davis has evolved as a superstar, taking him a number of years to do that. Somebody has to step up. Somebody, you know, they need an old-school vet on that team to tell those guys, let's go play. And then they need some other pieces around them, and they didn't even have a different system, I think, of play, so that they can be dominant. The market in New Orleans is a little soft, probably, but they should be one of the dominant teams in the league. And the first couple of years playing together, they have to understand that Mannequin kind of knew our skill sets from the beginning, and it took us a year, and then it happened with a wrap. But I think those guys have to be a little bit more hungrier and know that we can take anybody out every night if we want to play. But again, this game situation down the stretch of the fourth quarter, somebody's got to put those guys in a situation where they can win. And maybe they don't understand game situations. Maybe they need a better point guard. Maybe they need a vet. You know, it's a coaching situation. So I don't know all the pieces down there that make sense, but they should be one of the dominant teams in the league. Nowadays, there's always talk about who's taking the last shot. LeBron's got to take it, or Doran, or whoever. I think when you hit one of the famous last shots, when you guys beat the Lakers in 86 in the conference finals. But I'm sure every time it was a close game, it didn't go to you. It could have went to Ikean, it could have went to somebody else. Do you think teams should do more of that, like just run a play, or maybe that has options where anybody could get it, or that they should always go to their best player? It's funny because people today use all these analytics in the arena and say, you shoot the ball from here, you shoot the ball. And they don't use that down the stretch because it's reacting. But think about Michael Jordan when he spread the court. He created shots for Steve Kerr, Paxton. And look, dude, you were in that corner, that's a shot you were to make. I'm gonna give you the ball, you better knock it down. And they did. So you got to know game situation. You down 10, you down five, three anything game, 24 second clock on, 10 seconds to go, who's gonna get the shot? There's gotta be a set play. Look at the Houston Rockets last year with Harden down the stretch. That table of basketball is good during the season, but down in the playoffs, when you gotta have a shot, somebody's gonna turn it over, nine times over 10. The ball's gonna be in the wrong hands with the wrong person because there's no set play. And you're not gonna get a rebound because you don't know when the ball's gonna be shot. So you can't get an offensive rebound. The defense is gonna get the ball and they're gonna throw a long path out and you're gonna lose the game anyway. So that's the playoffs, that's what happens. And then nobody ever, those of power teams, you gotta Steph Curry, those guys can knock down a shot. They understand the draw and kick and the give and go in the pick and roll because they played it so well. But if you down the stretch like LeBron the other day, he gets a lot of attention, but he has nobody around him that can take that last shot. So he has to take it and nine times over 10, you can make it, but when you don't, it looks really bad. Do you think anybody's a threat to beat Golden State this year or can beat them? I think so. I watched them play against Oklahoma City and Oklahoma, they had, everybody was ready to go and they beat them. I wish they had to get their stuff together, but you know, injuries is gonna tell tell this year, I think because of the long games and league and how long you play. So we'll see what happens to play out, but I think they're a team that can beat them. I think Houston can beat them if they play well, but it's a four game series, you know. So can you make those adjustments in four game series to be beat or not? And I think Steve Kerr and Steph and those guys are smart enough to make those adjustments. I don't know if Harden and Paul are ready to make those adjustments. He has been the first year to play together and it can Oklahoma City get their stuff together and then there's always Popovich. There's always Pop. I mean, this thing last year, what your nobody did in a series against Harden blocking the shot down the stretch and Popkin, he knows how to make those adjustments. So I always watch him, he's quieter than Cap. They'll sneak in, they got Parker back, they got the nucleus back now and let's see what they do in the next couple of months. People say he modeled his game after Michael Jordan. I had one more Jordan question for you. Last question overall. I was reading on your Twitter that Jordan wanted to play with you at Virginia, but Virginia didn't really go scouting. They just sending like a form. That's what we have talked about this number of times. He wanted to come, he wanted to play at Virginia, but they didn't recruit him that hard. We had a captive character that were coming in, but I need to ask Coach Holland that question. Why did they recruit him a little bit harder to make it sense that he would have came to Virginia, but I don't know if they thought he was ever gonna come out of Carolina from what I understand. And he wasn't like the highest recruited guy overall. No, I mean, it was freshman year. He got cut from a team. Yeah, yeah. And he tried to figure it out. So he wasn't recruited early, but I think from what I can remember, he said he probably wouldn't ever come out of North Carolina. Do you know him? Are you guys keeping in touch? I mean, you really close. Yeah, every now and then. I mean, we see each other on the circuit, one of Fred Woodfield, that's the president of the team, the personal friend of mine, and I introduced Fred and Michael a lot of years ago. So they became friends. So we talked, I talked to Fred every now and then as far as the team and I think, man, your team sucks. He's like, I know, but we working on it, we working on it. So we can brass each other a little bit about that every now and then. I used to go down there to a one or two game of the year, just haven't done it in the last couple of years, but we'll see each other, respect. And we talk about basketball and just kind of be at the round a little bit. I'm told he is absolutely the most competitive person you could ever meet. Is that your experience? Absolutely. I can recall at dinner and we had this little private set with Achievement Unlimited Basketball School that they have down in North Carolina now, 30 some years moving. It was me, Michael, Donnie Simpson, a couple other people. And we were talking about cars. And I was like, okay, great. I'm a Porsche guy, Michael and Donnie had Bentley's and they're racing Bentley. They're talking about my car is faster than yours. And they do, what makes a difference? As long as you don't reckon that car, Michael had the motorcycle or whatever and Donnie said, they was going back and forth. Like, let's go race right now. It's like 12 o'clock at night. Like, dude, you're not going to race tonight. You're not going to race tomorrow. So very, very competitive. You know, at every, I think thing that he does or represents, he had that competitive spirit. Great. Well, Ralph, I thank you for your time. It was great to talk with you, great to interview you. And good luck going forward. Thanks so much. And likewise to you. Thank you. All right, here we are for our final segment of the day. As always, it is knock down, Jay, I bring in my man, Jason McIntyre, who gives me his best opinions and I knock them down like bowling pins each and every week on In the Zone. I'm about to go back to back. Last week I won. This week I'm going to win again. Like the Warriors. Who tells you you win? What do you mean? I don't know. The crowd, the audience on YouTube. You obviously aren't reading the comments. All right, Chris, first, I want to commend you on a very nice job on your top 10 all time players list. However, I was about to say, I know there's a butt. There isn't a big butt. You got to have Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe Bryant. I'm sorry. Listen, Kobe had a tremendous career. He would have been my 11th choice, but Tim Duncan is certainly, I had a Kobe Bryant. I'll hit you with a couple of quick things and I'll let you try to rebut them. NBA Finals, MVP awards. Tim Duncan, three, Kobe Bryant, two. NBA regular season MVP awards. Tim Duncan, two, Kobe Bryant, one. Years missing the- Do you have Tim Duncan ahead of Shaq? Just wondering. I do not. Okay, Shaq. Well, don't get it wrong. We'll get to Kobe in a sec. Tim Duncan has two. So just throw that last point out. No, no, we will come back to- Going back to Kobe versus Duncan. Tim Duncan never missed the playoffs once in his career. Tim Duncan's teams never won under 50 games with the exception of the lockout year where there was only 60 games or what have you. Tim Duncan has to be ahead of Kobe Bryant. That's it? That's all you have? That's all I need. Well, they both won five titles. They did. Tim Duncan had two Hall of Fame teammates for two of his titles or three of his titles. Just remind me of their names. Manu Jnobli and Tony Parker. Yes. And then he had three, what looks like, Kawhi Leonard looks to be on the path. A little early, but probably. A little early, but probably, right? So three of them for one title. And then just one teammate, David Robinson for his first title. Kobe Bryant had one Hall of Fame teammate for every one of his titles. Shaq, that's a heck of a teammate, but that's one Hall of Famer. And then Powell Gasaw, another great teammate, but that's the only Hall of Famer on Kobe's last two-peat. Here's another thing Kobe did that Tim Duncan did not. He repeated as a champion and not only did he repeat, he did it twice. Tim Duncan couldn't do it once. Kobe Bryant did it twice. Do you know the names of the players who have repeated in the last, since the NBA, ABA merger in 1976? Let me, let me read them all for you. Indulge me. LeBron James and Dwayne Wade. Oh yeah. Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippin, Hakeem Olajuwon, Isaiah Thomas, Magic and Kareem. That's an impressive list. That's, but to do and Kobe, of course, Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant and Powell Gasaw did it. Not, then there's the little matter of, they both won a lot. Five rings, five rings. Did Duncan ever score 81 points? Did Duncan ever score 40 points in nine straight games? Did Duncan ever outscore an entire team by himself? I don't believe so. 2005, the month was December. Kobe Bryant scored 62 points in three quarters. The Dallas Mavericks scored 61 in three quarters. Wow. I mean. Regular season numbers, way to go. And you can't, don't get me winning cause they both got their five rings. Now let's look at a few of the individual things. Yes, let's focus on the individual. And you can't look at the ones that I just pointed out. You can't rebut those. Let me give you one more. Kobe Bryant had a 16 year stretch of outstanding basketball. Second year in the league, he makes the All-Star team. 17. He was the sixth man on the Lakers that year. He started one game in his second year. He made the All-Star team. Second year in his league, Tim Duncan was the MVP of the finals. He made the All-Star team. 17th year in the league, he averaged 27 points. So that's a 16 year, yes they did. Okay, they went around. That's a 16 year stretch of outstanding individual play. Duncan was great too, but he only had a 13 year stretch when he was in his prime. Then he came back and had rebounded a couple of years later with 17 points a game, but it's just kind of dry. Listen, Kobe was a scorer by nature. That's what he did. Tim Duncan was a rebounding machine. A eight time. Did he ever leave the league in rebounding? No, come on, of course not. He was where there was Shaq. Come on, Shaq was the rebounder in the league. Shaq never led the league in rebounding. Dwight Howard in his prime was like an MVP candidate. There were other great centers. Kobe was not. But he's better than Kobe. Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan, what he did, he never led the league in it. Kobe Bryant was not even the best shooting guard in the NBA history. Michael Jordan, we would agree on that. Tim Duncan, best power forward NBA history. Of course, who's the argument? Don't give me, call him alone. No, no, no. I go with Duncan. Unless you count, some people would count Larry Bird as a power forward. No, he was a small forward. Michael was a power forward. Again, individual games, Kobe was the scorer. Did Duncan ever lead the league in anything? That's a great question, I don't know. Did he? I mean, all I know is he led the league in three NBA finals MVP awards against Kobe Bryant. Kobe got zero, he was the second banana to Shaq. He got two. Yeah, when he got Phil Jackson later on with Paul Gasol, okay? That's fine. But a lot of people would be second banana to Shaq, including your man, Duncan, because you said he's ranked below Shaq. Well, no, in terms of rebounding, yes. Oh, you were my all-time top 10? No, not really. Okay, all right, okay, I thought you needed to do it. I think I just demolished your argument. So, head to head, Tim Duncan, finals MVP awards, more regular season MVPs. Is that fun? I just, you didn't say anything. Andre Iguodala has a finals MVP award. Does that mean we're gonna throw him in the Hall of Fame or something? No, but he's got, we're not comparing him to Kobe. That's not how you measure the better position. Listen, a spirited argument, I'll applaud you, but there's no way Tim Duncan's ahead of Kobe Bryant. All right, next topic. You are the number one O.K.C. fan, I believe in the building here at Fox Sports. I mean, you love you some Russell Westbrook. There's a bunch of haters up in there. So let me hit you with this statement. I don't believe Russell Westbrook will ever get back to a conference finals now that Kevin Durant is gone. And let me just hit you, only a couple things. Russell Westbrook's now 29 years old, okay? He's a 39% shooter this year with two great teammates. 30% from three. His game relies on athleticism, getting to the rim, thunderous dunks. He's 29. It's tough to keep that going as we saw with Allen Iverson, getting into the lane, getting to the foul line. His style isn't conducive to longevity. And I told you, he can't shoot. I compare Russell Westbrook to Iverson. Iverson at the age of 25 got to the finals, never got back. Dwight Howard, another great young player, got to the finals, age 23, never got back. I don't think Russ gets back to the finals. I don't think he gets back to a conference finals. Very possible, because obviously the Western Conference is stacked. It is. Golden States still a relatively young team. Everybody's in their prime. Houston doesn't appear to be going in where if Chris Paul stays there. Minnesota's coming, they're gonna be, you know, just keep it moving. As long as Jimmy Butler stays. Yeah, yeah. And even without Butler, they're still gonna have Carl Anthony Towns and then Andrew Wiggins and all that. So that's possible. What I would say Oklahoma City has to do, I like your Iverson comparison. I think you heard me saying that before. So you stole it for your segment. I did not hear that. But I do think he's similar to Iverson. There's no question about it. And the Philadelphia 76ers, the best postseason run they had with Iverson when they made the finals against the Lakers was when they put the right pieces around it. Fewer things they had. They put grinders, defenders, spot up shooters around Allen Iverson. Guys who couldn't really create on their own offensively. So they were happy to play their role. Those are the types of players you need to put around Russell Wesson. They tried that last year. Put three in, no, they didn't, they didn't have any shooters last year. Victor Oladipo was not a shooter last year. It's interesting that Victor Oladipo shooting really well this year. He wasn't a great shooter in Orlando either before he got to Oklahoma City. So you put three in these shooters around Westbrook. I love Stephen Adams with Westbrook, some defenders. And that Allen Iverson team had an all-time great coach in Larry Brown. No disrespect to Billy Donovan, but he's not an all-time great coach. I love when people say no disrespect because you're about to disrespect them. Yeah, not at the NBA level. And he's either gonna have to improve and step it up or they're gonna have to get a superb coach. But who's gonna wanna go there? Oh, listen, if players are abandoning ship, are you sure players are abandoning ship? Nobody wants to play with him. How, what coach is gonna wanna go there? One player, isn't that one player? If you're a coach, if you're a, well, I mean, Victor Oladipo didn't leave by choice. He dealt it because he didn't fit alongside Westbrook. Paul George, we'll see. He's about to leave. We'll see what happens. Carmelo Anthony, let's see if he leaves a lot of money on the table to leave. My point is, I don't know that at 29, a leopard's gonna change his spots. What I'm saying is you don't need, I wouldn't try to put superstars around him. I would put three and D guys. Did James Harden have superstars around him last year? No, he had three and D guys. And he had a great system that Mike D'Antoni created. That's what OKC needs. They need a coach that's gonna create a great system for Westbrook and they need role players who will be happy to defend, lock people up, spot up, shoot at the three point line and rebound and let Russ be Russ. Now it may not work. It may not work because you have so many stack teams in the West, but I think that's the best route. Okay, so getting back to my question, conference finals, Westbrook, if you don't wanna say yes or no cause you're afraid or what have you. Well, let's see what happens. People love to clip this stuff and put it online and be like, oh, you were wrong. What's the percentage chance Westbrook gets back to a conference final? It's probably low. It's probably low cause the West is so strong. 3%? No, no, I'll give you 15%. 15? 20%. Yeah. Like I said, it depends on what they put around them. But Westbrook is a first by the Hall of Famer, iconic player. Who wouldn't wanna be Allen Iverson? I mean, everybody gets it. Would you rather be- If Bayla said today on Undisputed, everybody gets in the NBA Hall of Fame. So let's take that. But there's a Hall of Fame and then there's a Hall of Fame. Westbrook will be in the Hall of Fame. Would you rather be Robert Orrey or Allen Iverson? Let's save that for another day. I don't wanna go. Then stop dissing- That's a good question. I'm undissing. And that's what Westbrook is going to be. Westbrook is great. He's gonna be a Hall of Famer. He ain't gettin' to a conference championship again. All right, my final take. This is lukewarm. Like most of them. In addition to loving the OKC Thunder, you love you some Rockets. They were just on Speak for Yourself today. You said the Rockets have a 30 to 35% chance? Of beating the War State. I'm saying right now- They're the second best team in the league right now. Double zero, no chance. The Rockets, as of now, I mean, health pending, we'll see. I know you love to talk about injuries. No chance the Rockets take down the Warriors. Why? Why not? Oh, you want me to explain myself? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so number one, we've seen a worn-down Warriors team. Dreymond Green's miss some games. Kevin Durant has missed some games. Steph Curry is currently hurt. They're not at full strength. When they're trotting out Nick Young and Omri Caspy and Rookie Jordanbell, we know Steve, Steve Kerr's tinkering. Okay, so that's the first point. Number two, we've seen this from Mike D'Antoni, Chris. He's a great, phenomenal regular season coach. Post-season? I don't know about that. We're gonna find out. I also want to add, the Warriors have faced James Harden in the playoffs twice. 2015, 4-1. 2016, 4-1. And my final point, and there may be a point of contention here, I don't think you could go against the greatest backcourt of all time that you said last week and try to beat them at their game. I don't think you can try to beat the greatest shooting team in NBA history at their own game. I think you've gotta come at it differently. I believe the Memphis Grizzlies a couple of years ago, pushed them. Now this was pretty durant. Really pushed them with Gasol, the big men, the passing. Kerr figured it out. Nobody last year even slowed down the Warriors in the post-season. I don't feel like the 15th best team in three-point shooting, the Rockets, is gonna go toe-to-toe with the Warriors and push them in the conference finals. The Rockets currently have a top five offense of all time. So you can talk all you want about 15th rated percentage-wise in three-point shooting. Percentage, yeah. They're making, I believe, the most in the league. I'm just curious, does Mike D'Antoni responsible for number two and number five all time? The Suns? Are they all up there? No, I don't believe so. They're way ahead of the Suns. Showtime, Lakers, the Warriors, the Warriors of a couple years ago, or no, the Warriors of last year and the Warriors of this year, and then these Rockets. And to beat Golden State, cause you're only going to slow Kevin Durant, Steph Curry and Clay Thompson down, but so much. So that'd be in the case, even if you play knock down, drag out basketball, like Memphis or maybe even San Antonio would try, you're gonna have to score a certain number of points. I mean, narrowly gonna be slowed so much. So Houston, I think is capable of doing that. They can score. Now I do believe Steph Curry and Clay Thompson are the best starting backcourt of all time. All time. But right now when you add in the bench and Eric Gordon averaging 19 points a game off the bench, those three, Gordon, Chris Paul and James Harden, that's the best backcourt in the league right now. But that's unfair. Why is it unfair? They're all guards on the same team. That's a backcourt. Now it's not starting backcourt, but it's a trio of backcourt players. They also defend and that's what, you're right, Mike D'Antoni, I'm with you. He has his lack of attention to detail, has cost his teams in the playoffs before. It cost New York when he was there, not New York, it cost Phoenix when he was in Phoenix and they always would have a bad mistake at a critical time, a lot of times against the Spurs. But those Mike D'Antoni teams also didn't play defense. Now you have a team that's playing defense. Their seventh ranked in the league in defensive efficiency. Warriors are second by the way. Look, and I'm still favoring the Warriors. I mean, if 30 to 35%, that means I'm 65 to 75, 70% Warriors. So I'm with you on the Warriors, but I'm just saying this team looks like to me like they can play with the Warriors. I would favor Golden State, but I give them a decent chance. A decent chance of winning one game. Let me ask you about James Harden's problems with the Warriors. I looked it up. Four games last year against Golden State. Shot 31% from the field, 14% on three-pointers. By far the worst numbers Harden against anybody. That's the Clay Thompson factor. Clay Thompson is one of the best defensive shooting guards in the league. He against Harden now. I know what you're gonna say. Now you got Chris Paul to help. No, you got Chris Paul to help. If he does defend Harden well. He has to. You got Chris Paul now to take a little pressure off. And I'm concerned about Harden and Chris. They haven't been tremendous in the clutch. Chris has had his moments, but he's also had some bad ones. Let me, they've been great in the fourth quarter lately. Well, I'm talking about the playoffs. That's what it matters. Let's see if they bolster each other and give each other more confidence that they don't screw up in the clutch. But Paul also gives them a mid-range game. Last year they were very predictable. And those playoff matchups with Golden State in the past, they've been very predictable. Golden State's gonna give you all the mid-range you want. Well, take your choose. We're gonna make Chris. With the Rockets, what teams have done is forced them, they know they're gonna shoot a three. So they force them off the three-point line and into the paint, they wanna go all the way to the basket. They don't wanna stop and take mid-range. Now with Chris Paul, you got a guy that can stop and take mid-range. So now you can do it in the paint, mid-range and a three-point. Let me ask a quick X's and O's question. We gotta wrap up, but you said these three guards and Houston, Gordon and James and CP3. Who's guard, in that lineup that you're talking about, who's checking Kevin Durant? Well, those aren't, he's not a guard. See, that's the question. In the final five minutes, when the Warriors try out the Hamptons five, what are the Rockets countering with? I don't, they don't have an answer for it. You've got PJ Tucker. Now I'm not, nobody's locking up Kevin Durant, but Trevor, but no, it's not a problem. LeBron couldn't stop him in the finals on the four quarter. Nobody can lock him up. And that's the difference here. But if you make it come up. I just gave you the numbers. Clay locked up James Harden last year in the full regular season game. Let's see if he locks him up this time. I don't think he'll lock him up this time. He's so doubtful on Clay. Why is he so doubtful on Clay? Clay's a watchist. Clay Thompson loves these debates, and that's why he's a fan of me. You know his Flash Brothers, follow me on social media. I don't even think he knows your name. Oh, probably not. Jason McIntyre, Clay. But job well done, Chris. Yeah, I know. This is one of your more, it's the holidays, I'm in a generous feeling. I wanted to give him a shot at Kobe Bryant's stuff. Oh my goodness. You know, I beat you up badly on that. What, Duncan? You know I beat you up badly on that. But good job. Knocked down Jay. My man, Jason McIntyre, he tries hard. I give him an A for effort. D, D plus for execution. But hopefully you enjoyed it. And join us next week. We had a great show with Ralph Samson, my man Jay Mack, and of course, the definitive top 10 NBA players of all time. Check us out on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and SoundCloud, and leave us five stars and a friendly comment for In the Zone. We'll check you out next week. Oh, happy holidays.