 OK, welcome to the final film of our Taiwan Studies Taiwan film week. This is the sixth film we've watched and it will be the fourth Q&A that we've held over the last three days. And the final film we're going to watch is My Fancy High Heels, by Galventia. I'm just going to say a few words about how we actually got here with this film. And then I'll hand over to Beve, who will be chairing the session. One of the major partners in our project of Taiwan film screening has been public television services in Taiwan. And before we started screening, I went to the International Office of Taiwan Public Television and explained our project that we wanted to show films that were relevant to the kind of courses on Taiwan that were teaching relevant regarding Taiwan's economy, politics, society and culture. And they gave me a list of about 10 recommended films. We've got through a lot of that list over the last two years. But one of the top films on the list was My Galventia, My Fancy High Heels. So I'm delighted that we've finally got Herdell TV. I think we even tried in the first year and I'm delighted that she's here. I really want to thank Public Television for their support for this programme. And I'm going to hand over now to Beve, who's going to be chairing the session. Thank you. Welcome everyone. I'm glad to see quite a lot of faces actually hanging around all day long. Thanks for being fervent supporters. Beve rightly said that we have seen three fantastic films from Herdell TV. But we're delighted she's here again coming back and answering your questions and answering all three, especially the films that we're showing tonight. Herdell TV, let me just do a little bit of introduction and then I'll introduce her, then you'll give her a big welcome as usual. Thank you. Herdell TV is both a producer and filmmaker. Her works have won her many awards and recognitions. Her films are shown in MoMA, for example, in New York. It's really a very rare recognition. I think it's the only Taiwanese filmmakers that actually got this... We had two. Oh, two, sorry, one of them. Right, so I'm sorry, I got the details wrong. So, early on you have seen two of her films. One is the 2012 film that's class 303 and also 2013's film, Socks and Roll. Tonight we're showing her 2010's film, My Fancy High Heels. This documentary examines the global production chains of the world of high fashion and provides a rare and quite thoughtful dialogue between the global and the local. Although the subject matters of her works ranged widely, her works are always about human stories. So, that's why we're always being touched by her characters in her films. She has always concerned with minority issues, political topics, and also social injustice. In this particular film, her gaze was drawn and focused on the devastating impact of globalization and also the hyper-consumerism on the disadvantaged groups, sorry about that. So, through a pair of high heels or very humble pair of socks, she actually showed you how closely connected we are, we live our world to the outside world, not only from the rural China to the most fancy and fashionable New York and Milan. So, let's put our hands together and give He Zhao Tian a warm welcome. Yes, please, sorry. Good evening, this gentleman. Very nice to meet you again tonight. So happy that I've already got my Valentine's Day flower from one of the audience. He said he left, he has to leave earlier, so he just kept me that. Very happy. Well, as usual, I don't feel like to say too much before screening because the film itself will tell most of the information of the documentary. So, please enjoy the film. The film is probably a little bit emotional, so enjoy the film and, as usual, welcome any kind of question after screening. So, we are open to the floor to take questions. First? Hello. It's a great story, it was very enjoyable. And what I would like to say is that with your editing, you kind of started at the end and watched your way backwards. I was wondering what you were thinking was behind that, why you chose to tell the story in that order. Any other questions or just to start with Desmond? Yes, I'm a fan starter. Films. And to nice films, I saw that several interviews are factory workers. And I suspect that is it more easy to approach the fall standard than the workers and how do you make the workers being interviewed because you especially some of them are interviewed in the dormitory of the factory and the working place. You know, a lot of films are filmed in the dormitory. How do you approach them? Before I answer the questions, I would like to say to so was especially Dr. David Tao and Bebe, it was very hard to organize this event. And of course, Jewel and Nikki. Thank you very much. Thank you. So for the first question, I'd like to answer my question in Mandarin. So maybe Bebe could answer it for me. The way to answer it is, in the beginning, my idea was to solve it from the beginning. That is to say, from the beginning, to the end of the story. But I usually give up. You're absolutely right. At the beginning of the story, the story was planned to be told as the sequence of the event, which means from the very beginning of the acquisition of the material to the ending with the Manhattan's beautiful designers and the showcases. But usually, I would throw away a few ideas in front of me. Because I think if I can think of them, that means I can probably think of them all. So I think... I think I'm still an impressionist. I think an impressionist should always throw away a few ideas in front of him and then make a challenge in the form. Instead of thinking of the simplest way to tell a story. I think as a filmmaker, I have always worked through different various ideas. And if I can get the idea so easily, others must have the same result. So she tried to work out what's the best way. So working through ideas. But she said I consider myself as a quite hard-working filmmaker. As hard-working people usually do, they work through things and refining them again and again. So she tried to polish through forms and also the different way of presenting them. Another question is... When I was filming the film, I was facing... How would you know if you were filming something? Full HD is two years ago. When I was making this film, I was experiencing a change in the rules. So the material I was filming, because my camera was getting better and better. So I faced a problem in the form. When I was editing, if I was a junkard, I couldn't cut the quality down. They weren't suitable for the film. So I thought of a way in the form. When I was editing the film, they were going to be in a small story. So they formed a chapter in a chapter. This is because I was limited to the rules. So once again, I was actually a worker. So for me, how to make difficulties into a aesthetic form is a very important thing. Usually I would encourage myself not to go through difficulties, to face and solve difficulties. So the best way to encourage myself is to transform difficulties into a aesthetic form no one has ever thought of. At the same time, I think it also applies to our attitude in life. When we face a big problem, we can face it. But we can think of a different lifestyle. Alternative lifestyle. Because the problem is that you have it yourself. It is very exclusive, only you have it yourself. So this problem can become a aesthetic form you face in life. I think this is a bit of a common sense. It's a bit long, isn't it? Sorry, I try my best. If you have experience of making films, especially in the past few years, you well know that there is a dramatic transformation and advance in technologies. So this makes my work very difficult because there are so many different kind of formats. So how to make lower quality visuals match the higher quality results is very difficult aesthetically. You will notice immediately if the visual impact is very different. So what happened? She tried to face up, as a hard-working filmmaker, to face up these difficulties rather than just defeated by the difficulties. She felt, I suppose it's quite proudly saying so, that she worked out a way to deal with these format differences by grouping different units of stories into chapters, which means she can wrap them around and put similar sort of visual together. Sort of being break into different sections, you didn't really see that much difference visually. And she said her philosophy of making films is the same as her philosophy of dealing with difficulties in life, is not to lie down and just take the beating. Rather, you take that difficulties into your advantages and I think I've actually translated, not bad. Sorry. And it's a kind of a live attitude that she wants to really convey through her films. That's the first question. And the second question is the female and boss. I'm sure you've all heard of the boss. Oh. Yes. And it must be the general manager. The general manager is useless. He'll say, I'm going to ask my boss. Yes. It must be the general manager, or at least the董事長. You can meet him and tell him why I want to film. Generally speaking, I don't film the logo. It's these high-ranking actors. Because they're not willing to let anyone know what brand they're working on. So once you've met the boss, you get the approval from the boss. And then the boss, there's a band in there. What's that? Band. The band. The band. The band that will plant fruits. Yes. The band that plants fruits. He... I told him to send you to the corporate society... to the corporate responsibility department. They'll deal with the troublesome media. There will be a special department to deal with the media. I said, the people in the corporate responsibility department can follow me. So you'll... Your people will know what I'm asking. So my... My way is to say I'll tell him why I want to film. He'll agree. He'll agree. But I want to know what he's most concerned about. He doesn't want to cause trouble for himself. So I want to help him deal with some problems. Generally speaking, if I deal with this, the chances of success are quite high. But I've seen 20 or 30 companies. So what you see is very few. Because most of them reject me. That's right. Of course, you have to get approval from the really top end of the management level. And most of them actually the owner of the factories. Sorry. Usually, they are reluctant to take on this... Why would they want you to hang around with them? But she said, usually, she will not film anything with logo sound. And also, they don't want you to show off what sort of condition or what sort of brand they are producing for. And the guy, Ban, is the guy who grew vegetables and the fruits and the geese and chicken, whatever. And he's the one she has to get approval directly from him. She said, the way she approached it was actually she said, there's a department in the company. It's called Enterprise Responsibility or something like that. Yeah? Corporate... Corporate business or something like that. Yeah. And that sort of department, well, they have a representative following the whole process of filming. So they know exactly what she's doing. But the thing is, it's actually not too... If you get their approval, once you get the approval, it's pretty straightforward. She said, the most important thing is to know what to avoid. What is the point that they actually quite care and didn't reluctant to touch upon. And she did say something I don't really know detail. She totally was saying, for example, if you know what they really care about and where is the area that they don't want you to do and because they don't want to get into trouble. I didn't ask what trouble that was, but you can ask later. And if they agree to accept your filming crew, actually it's quite straightforward. But what you saw was a very small percentage of the factories she contacted. She actually contacted over 20 and 30 factories. This is a very small proportion of that. Don't you want to know what trouble... Troubles are something like the logo. They don't want to... For example, Pradao Chanel produced his factory. Okay. We cannot show the logo. Two questions, maybe this first one, anyone? And the second one. No, no. Yes, yes. Hold it first. No, not all. Hi, thanks for the film. And I have a question about the previous one, class 303. I saw you focus on that group, like you captured their ordinary life, but you also bring us back to their homeland, home country. And I just wondering what your original thoughts to focus on this kind of group. And when you start to form your thoughts and when you answer your film, is there any gap between them or do you have like touch, very touchable moment or kind of shock moment, but it's hard to put into the film or you want to share with us. Thank you. And the second one. Yes. My question is about the film we've just seen and I understand that the film is about globalization and your scope is not limited to the one specific region, but I also have the impression that the Taiwan manifested really minimally in the film. We had a person from Taiwan working in mainland China and also there was a brief sequence of the fashion show in Taipei. So was there any reason about not filming the Taiwanese consumers or not interviewing those people or not filming the factory in Taiwan? Thank you. I'll answer the second question first. Yes. In fact, there is no factory in Taiwan anymore. Really? Yes. There is no factory in Taiwan anymore. Especially the Taiwanese market in the top level. Really? So, of course I really hope to be able to film but that time has passed. At that time, when I was filming, I went to Southeast China. So it's not because I deliberately avoided filming in Taiwan. But in this story, from the perspective of consumers, Taiwan doesn't have any meaningful meaning. Because I want to film New York because if I want to limit this story and the way I want to ask questions is to pull to a global issue, then it will be meaningful. So when I was filming a New York consumer, Sena Yan, one of the actresses in my film, I think what Sena said was not only about herself, but also about a group of consumers. It's because of that. So, I have another opinion and I think I come from Taiwan, I live in Taiwan, but I don't necessarily have to film the story of Taiwan. Because the story I'm filming represents the perspective of a Taiwanese director or a Taiwanese director's point of view. This is my answer to your question. Okay. She's going to answer why there's no any features of Taiwanese shoe factory. It was because there's no such things now in terms of high-end, high-heel or fashion labels. Now, no Taiwanese factory doing this sort of is it OEM? OEM. OEM, okay. And for high-end fashion logos, brands, that time has passed. Most of the factories have moved to China, especially Southeast China. So, it is not my intention to avoid any depiction of Taiwan's role in this particular production line. However, I don't think it is really matter as a Taiwanese filmmaker. I think the question she raised was about the impact of globalization. And also it makes sense to trace the sources and also look at the end product. And New York is such a symbolic place to look at. And the, what's her name? Yang? And she's almost like a collective image of the high-end consumer of this particular product. For her, it is not just about Taiwan's production. It's more to do with a Taiwanese filmmaker's viewpoint presenting not to mention Taiwan play a role in the whole production. The owner of that shoe shop was Taiwanese boss. So actually, you cannot be excluded because everyone's in it, you and me. I'm feeling very guilty wearing shoes, leather shoes. So, I'm just saying, we are all in there with or without the depiction of Taiwan. And that's the whole point of talking about this. Yeah? And then last week I thought about because I came here to play, and then I thought about this video again. I think if I take it again, the first part is Manhattan, I want to turn it into a woman in Shanghai. Because when I was taking it, I was actually from 2006 to 2009 about three years ago. Yeah. It's been almost three years since I made this video. I think at that time there were a lot of domestic problems in China. Not as serious as now. But I think if I want to take it again, I will look for a consumer in Shanghai. But the questions are not global issues. They are about domestic conflicts in China. So I think if I take it again, it may be closer. Okay. Sorry. And then she's going to add up some information about that particular question. This film is going to show what's going to show us. So before she left Taiwan, she thought about what would she do if she redo this, remade this film. She said, I'm definitely replacing that woman in Manhattan with a Shanghai woman who's now easily high heels. She said, when she was making this film, that was between 2006 and 2009. That was a very different period of time compared to now. Now you can see that the gap between the rich and poor not only quite severe here, but even more so in China as a rising and reaching country, it will make sense. However, the questions she's going to raise will be very different. It will be something about questioning a rising country with such so much money in this country, but the gap between the rich and poor actually grows and is deepening. So she said, if she remakes the film, she will move with the time and will have a different question. I think the change is very big. I think because we've been doing research for a long time, so the meaning of research in the film is that we will have to know that under the social structure in the future, what will happen in the time of the film? I think no, I mean, before we start research, we need to do a deep research like this. So I don't think there are any themes in this research. So I think the final result is also very big. Other parts are almost in our budget. So the change is not too big. This is also a film for us that will not let the director focus on the film. In my opinion, most of them are okay. Let me translate this part, then you too. As in terms of the questions you raised about the source and how to choose all these families, actually before the filming process really took place, there were meticulous research process. So they already knew in the next two or three years what might happen to these kids and they need to be quite stable otherwise it's very difficult for them to handle these cases. So structurally they need to pick up different families and apart from that girl whose parents were Indonesians, Eulijing from Burma sorry about that. So the father went to jail if you remember in the case in the film. So apart from that particular family, most of the other families they were actually quite stable. She said we want to do good research before we really embark on the filming because she said I don't want to have a stroke which means I don't want to encounter any unexpected surprises, that's all. So research is very important for their filming to be successful. In fact, this film I will continue to film the second part. Eulijing and Ma Peiwen are already 14 or 15 years old. She has become a girl who has grown up. So I have been practicing with them all the time. So I hope I can film them when they are 18 or 29 and then come out again. Okay, and of course there will be sequels for this particular film Class 303. At the moment because there was a film by Ma Peiwen, Ma Peiwen is the girl Thai-Chinese and of course Eulijing Burmese and they are now 14, 15 years old very pretty young ladies here. So she's planning to do a follow up when they were 18 or 20. So we'll see the difference between this period. Then we can see the great difference maybe 10 years difference something like that. Well I was in Britain you have 7-ups you know 7-ups documentary 7-ups but in Taiwan we don't have that. You know the 7-up film. I was a little bit like that. The British documentary 7-up so it's a kind of inspiration for her to follow up and see how the process is growing up. Take another one, two Michael then you, okay Michael first. One thing horrified me which knowing a bit about industrial safety it was the time they were working in an atmosphere of solvents they were holding up the shoe right by their face and painting on the glue now maybe they had a water based glue which was safe but I doubted I doubted and that is highly toxic there's organic glue so they were working on it so they were working on it so they were working on it so they were working with they're going to get liver cancer in a couple of years and I thought that was horrifying maybe I could ask you in that production line was the smell overpowering of the organic glue which they were using do you remember they said they got the glue they said where are we the next two so two questions so we can sorry yes my question is more general about filmmaking so in your film quite often you approach difficult subjects for example in the last film you show people working slot house people slot in young cars my question is how do you interact with the subjects in your film would you try to conscientiously be careful not to come across as being judgmental when you might have some feelings inside you you think it's wrong but if you can't show that on your face because those people might feel shameful about what they're doing as well try to let them feel easy in front of camera for Chinese people this is a very serious disease very lucky to see this my question is you speak too long sorry Zhao Qi was saying that if you for Chinese workers having cancer as an illness maybe it's a luxury means there are doctors who have broken their hands cut their hands into pieces my so-called cancer is a very luxurious and lucky disease meaning they can't wait for cancer they have all kinds of different diseases so they don't usually wear masks it's because we have to their boss wants them to wear masks because it's too hot inside so it's not comfortable and they won't even take care of this for example the workers died from typhoid it's like a recovery system so this is the real the actual face and appearance we don't have to say there's a chance there's a chance this is a natural thing okay it's quite depressing actually there are some sort of medical services nearby near the factories usually they have certain kind of specialties dealing with emergencies like you know you got your hands chopped off or some sort of quite brutal and careless injuries so if you are you live so long to get a cancer kind of disease that meant actually you're quite lucky to live that long well there were loads of different accidents and for example you saw them wearing masks actually in ordinary condition they don't usually wear masks it was being demanded by the boss saying they are filming you know those masks were useless well at least there's a okay the thing is they don't that's the rule but they don't carry out stringently so usually it was so hot that's why Johnty was saying it's not humane it's all covered up and workers like you heard those girls working from 20s to 60s for her she saw those kids those workers were dispensable they were just like recycling if you are useless then they carry out plenty of people wanted those jobs that's the realities you see now so when we talk about organic wow that's just luxuries that's not really what they really care about she asked she asked oh how do you maintain a neutral judgmental position is it difficult for example when you are at the plant do you feel so terrible or so cruel do you have any expressions or how do you deal with them this is a documentary can you talk a little bit I I never said I was objective but this doesn't mean I am independent or it doesn't mean I am objective but it means I am objective I am objective I am not objective to enter this shooting or to shoot a documentary sorry sorry because it's quite complicated she said I would never say I am objective but I would not impose totally 100% of my view on you but would definitely my work is presenting a viewpoint to present to you and you made your judgment so of course there are a lot of emotions but when I work I will be objective objective that is to say it's a temp sorry R-A-M random memory is that random temporary memory temporary file he is objective but he will always return to the place where I live after the shooting the emotion will come up actually I shoot when I was shooting when I was shooting when I was shooting sorry of course you cannot not to have emotional reaction to many things but as you rightly said it's a kind of temporary memory you store it and you put it aside and you didn't deal with it until you went back after the whole day's filming you went back to hotel wherever and it really surged into your life and it's quite painful actually you know it's like certainly surfaced because every single piece of me is like this it's a very painful thing so when I face myself I have to know my own state otherwise I will get sick not mentally ill or get sick together so I think my way is I have to face it face the difficulties and don't give yourself any excuse to make it reasonable the so-called reasonable is that many girls in this world love high school so it's reasonable so it doesn't matter I can't do it so what can I do she said because you can see from my films most of the topics I deal with are tragedies in life or sad stories or sometimes disadvantaged marginalized people if I really I may myself face up to those things if I don't I will get ill I will be sick either physically or mentally but I think I need to face up to those difficulties in life honestly which means I should never rationalize those things you have seen for example she said if I rationalize this killing of little animals just because women like beautiful things that's not the way forward so I cannot make myself do that so I present to you very honestly with all these brutal images you have to put a lot of pressure to train your muscles the principle is that when your muscle is damaged you will lose weight so your muscles will become more flexible stronger when your muscle is damaged but when it is real your muscles will become stronger so I think this is a mental training that is that you will get hurt and then even after I finished training I feel that my internal organs will be damaged and then there will be pain so my new muscles will be damaged but I think I need to face a mental training that is very honest to face these emotions so when I face a lot of pain I feel that my heart will become stronger but not very cold to face these scenes okay hold up let me translate if it's possible and you two will be the next sorry this is very difficult because I'm not a sports person however I'll try my best okay workout yes so in physical training you lift the weight gradually more and more so this is a kind of building up your muscles for her she tried to make herself face of difficulties and the sad stories by strengthening her mental abilities gradually and allowed it to become stronger but not become colder it's very important for her so she felt even looking back she still her heart still bleeds thinking about or going through the process of filming the killing but it is very important to go through that as a training and get stronger and tougher and more robust to face up different things okay then we have two questions one is Dean and you thank you for the documentaries my first question relates first question relates to the first film 303 I can relate to I can relate to the I'm of mixed heritage so I can relate to the occasional marginalization and hostility what's your view about the the immigrants in Taiwan and the second question is actually I was going to ask what is what was the most painful experience both the films I think you answered that already by expressing that that you still bleed so I'm going to ask what was the most natural experience in both films what was the most enjoyable experience in both films what was the most enjoyable experience with 303 sorry sorry actually no one asked how beautiful the dog is sorry yeah I also want to give my thanks really because this film then we have the chance to know the underlying process behind the high-heel industry we don't really know the truth so my question is to the final part your high-heel my fancy high-heel film that is a lot of scenes are very emotional and also astonished but you end the film with in an animation with a little cow and then they reunite with maybe his parent and that is a completely different effect I just want to ask how do you design the way you want to end the film but are you just trying to make the audience feel a little bit better after everything you want thank you thank you um so I don't seem to really answer that question I'm actually thinking about the experience I have with them um and then actually I quite often have a habit that is to say when I look at the audience or the people I interact with sometimes I will go that may be the same kind of experience that is to say I will think if I were him then what would be my life and then I just think that's a lot of problems I may not understand I can't read and then um when others look at me I'm looking at me and then I don't have to say my child in school so when I think of me as his I will think of a lot of problems and then maybe it's not the problem you face now so I think on a political level I have already performed on a level in my video so what I want to talk about today is my personal feelings so I think for example I go to buy food or go out to eat for example in a small restaurant when I see them working actually that is the first thing I want to take a picture of this film it's a little like a little seed planted in my heart and then he grew up and then he grew up in this film um of course it started very from the daily life around my house sometimes when I go out for shopping buying food shopping not shoes shopping I've heard quite a lot of different kind of accents and different kind of languages and I notice usually for example they are selling dumplings or also different kind of dishes and my experience her experience usually when she's observing people she like to emphasize with them and see if I was them what will happen I can't read I'm an illiterate person not because I'm stupid because I can't read your language there are so many different problems my children will be discriminated people will look at me differently she can see just by imagining when she was there she can imagine what's going on what difficulties there were so personally I think these little people experience was a little bit like seedlings being planted in your heart eventually grow and grow become an idea and Seline and I are more happy experience I think it doesn't seem like really because I really think that maybe it can be said that it's more comfortable I think I think it's more appropriate to be a person who sends messages I always think I'm a messenger because I are all in this blood and cruel scene ok then send messages to people who don't know the world for example today in front of you and then you see I think it's a very difficult thing for me ok I think there's no such thing as a pleasurable you know it's quite heavy subjects however I feel quite relieved or comforted by the fact that I feel I actually play the role as a messenger passing on the message and the reality a cruel reality in life into your knowledge of this particular subjects that's what actually make her feel quite satisfied you know you started to know at least something about this topic and then her role as a messenger has been achieved you know actually when I was shooting I saw the one in the group I saw his eyes I immediately told the photographer to take a picture of him because I didn't know when he would be killed and then I saw his eyes and I felt almost heartbroken because I knew he would I can't do anything he will he will leave his eyes why did you end up like this at that moment I knew that was the last scene of the ritual the ritual because you saw the ritual actually the ritual is my own imagination and my own hope that is I hope at least this part it can be a little bit realistic I don't know because her mother was also killed the one in front okay when I started filming that particular scene I saw his eyes and that really caught my attention and I asked the camera a man cameraman man because I saw the sorry catch that moment of that little call and then catch that glimpse and his eyes at that time Jody said she was heartbroken however she's powerless so being a filmmaker you can't do anything to save that particular line however I think from compensated by giving you an animation she said reflect her imagination and her hope of meeting her meeting I think it must be the mother in heaven or in the sky I think I think we my second question my first question was an answer the first question was that being of mixed heritage I can relate to the occasion of being marginalized and being free of hostility and my question was those immigrants what's her viewpoint on those which are not her race or culture you mean her view she did answer she said empathizing and she was imagining what kind of difficulties it would occur maybe later no no it's fine I'm sorry time flies and wine receptions await but before you make your move let us thank her Jody it's fantastic we do have loads of different kind of seminars not just films so do keep an eye on our event page thank you