 Welcome back to another video in my San Diego Bookstore series. Today I'm going to be talking with Jack Rahn of the Groundwork Books or Groundwork Book Collective, which is a radical left-wing bookstore on the campus of UCSD. For those outside the Pale of California, that's the University of California at San Diego, which is in La Jolla, which is also where I took this photo. You can see it's a hideous and dreary place, but someone has to live there. Apparently that's not me. As is often the case with the interviews in this bookstore series, I expect it will also be of interest to the viewers of my regular videos, whether or not they have any particular interest in the San Diego Bookstore scene. In particular, I was surprised to find that my interviewees, the fan of Kevin Carson and Sean Wilbur, since I've been under the misimpression that this was a fairly strictly Marxist bookstore. It turns out, not quite so strict. Anyway, here we go. Hi, Jack. Hello. Hi there, Roderick. Good to see you. Good to see you. Yes, I will be the representative for Groundbooks Collective today. Okay, really? So, this is a bookstore on the campus of UCSD. Is this the right address for you? Groundwork Books 323 UCSD Student Center 9500 Gellman Drive? Yes, that is correct. Okay, great. All right, so I need you to tell me a little bit about the bookstore, the kind of books you offer, how it's organized. I know it's organized as a collective. The history of the bookstore and your history with it or whatever. Yeah, so Groundbooks Collective, as you've just mentioned, we are a nonprofit, horizontally organized student worker cooperative. So a lot of our members are undergraduates, graduate students at University of California, San Diego. We strive to have no hierarchy within the sort of workplace. Everyone is very much, you know, equal to one another. No one is like barking orders. There is no sort of like bureaucracy or vertical power structures in the store. Let's see. Yeah, it is a very, I guess, you know, it is a left wing bookstore. Many of our books relate to anarchist and Marxist theory. We have plenty of right actually right behind me is a sort of glimpse of the bookstore. There are lots of books on like philosophy, labor struggle, social activism, that sort of thing. And in terms of the history of the store, it's, it is, it is quite interesting. So we were founded and I believe 1973 1974 in the wake. I would actually have been in San Diego at the time it was founded, although I would have been a little kid. Yeah, so it was founded by many of the new left activists within the UCSD campus. I believe, especially after the wake of like many of the anti Vietnam War protests. Some members from that sort of milieu cohort got together and decided to create a bookstore. And the name of our bookstore, I believe comes from the fact that the way it was organized as a horizontal worker cooperative was supposed to be sort of a lay the groundwork of a new society of a more anti capitalist post capitalist sort of a way of organizing the economy way of organizing society. That sort of thing. And since then, based on cost. I'm sorry, what was that never get people assuming it's based on cost groundwork. Yes, we've had a few people joke about a yes groundwork so the metaphysics of ethics and cons we could yes jokes about us being a Kantian bookstore that sort of thing has emerged. But yeah for the most part is just, you know, contemporary left wing politics or the sort of better rock of the store. Since it was founded in the 70s, and then, since then grant books collective has sort of had. Aside from trying to organize ourselves into an effective worker cooperative we've also been, you know, very involved with many, many, many activist projects throughout the years. In the past, I don't have any strict details about like the 70s 80s 90s I know we've had members of the bookstore participate in, you know, anti tuition, or anti tuition increase protests, anti apartheid protests. Let's see, like support for Palestinian justice that sort of thing. I think that briefly covers sort of the quick history and overview of the bookstore, the collective. So you hold events in the store. Yes, so prior to the COVID-19 epidemic. We did host. There's been various events hosted on and off throughout the years I know we've before this was before I arrived at the bookstore I know we used to hold like free. I think it was like vegan brunches every Saturday that's sort of falling towards the wayside. We, let's see, oh some of our biggest events were usually like movie nights so we'd host like free screenings of, you know, whatever movies the collective decided we want to show that week and just post it free for the public. I know we've hosted a number of reading groups is a bookstore after all. At our collective and just invite people to sort of join us in reading discussions over whatever book we choose usually it was some sort of something from literature or like clinical theory that sort of thing. And when again when we were in person on campus. We would usually host. At least once a quarter at our school, try to host a general body meeting where we just invite people to come learn about the collective come check out the collective we usually have presentations showing off. Basically the details I'm explaining here about what the collective is and why. You know, and if anybody was interested they would be able to volunteer at these events. And that's some of the more recent notable things we posted at our bookstore. So how soon do you think that you think that you'll be open like in person stuff in the fall. It doesn't look like that's going to happen. So this past year, because of various, you know, COVID-19 related things, we were open, but we had very limited capacity very limited staffing hours. So very strictly like you come in, you browse around for a bit you buy a book, no, you know, that sort of thing no sort of sitting around no, you know, long term no in person events. Right now the university has told us, as of this at the moment of this recording I guess there should be in person events and I'm a little foggy on the details everything's still a little bit up in the air right now because of the, you know, Delta variant cases are increasing hopefully there will be. If everything goes well, you know the majority of the student body is like vaccinated and all that stuff we should be able to host. In person events probably returned to some of the previous functions we were doing prior to the pandemic but yeah nothing I guess nothing is quite set in stone right now. So how did you personally get interested in this bookstore. So I, when I was in high school, I was very interested in a lot of left wing politics. I've been familiar with the cooperative movement. I thought that was very, you know, this, at least reading about it, like in my area there weren't any cooperatives nearby but like reading about I was very enamored with this idea of like, oh, workplaces there are workplaces out there that have just completely done away with like the more vertical, bureaucratic hierarchical firm structure and our organized more cooperatively, more egalitarian principles. I was always sort of seeking that out and when I attended UCSD, I was sort of looking for, you know, other sort of left wing groups other sort of people interested in these kinds of politics, and I was very fortunate to find that although at the time UCSD didn't have any left wing groups, it did have a fully functioning sort of network of worker cooperatives so you know I was always interested in like political theory books that you know that sort of thing. So, yeah, I checked out growing books collective I met some of the previous members who are graduated by now. The whole place seemed wonderful. It's just this bookstore people just talking about politics wall. You know, so basically the things that I'd always been interested in but could never could never really find other people to discuss with but yes having this bookstore on campus was, you know, very eye opening. The, the structure also was quite interesting how you I would just go in and you know no one was really particularly like bossing me around or doing anything. Obviously people had to teach me various store functions but um, no, yeah that was just, I guess that's how I became involved with grant books collective. And what's the political atmosphere like on campus. So that's changed. That's that's an interesting question so what I got to UCSD and I think it was fall 2018. There had sort of been so historically the, the common joke, or yeah I guess cynical joke around more political politically active people on campus that UCSD is. You know the other University of California schools very kind of politically inert for a time I know especially like the mid 2010s there was, there were various student, I guess movements on campus like relate to racial justice. It's like this incident called the Compton Cookout. But aside from, I mean that was a really big event but like between then I think around 2016 it was a little bit politically dead. And then there was this massive explosion in 2016 with the election of Donald Trump, where you know this was sort of this for many students on campus is kind of this unprecedented events. Spontaneously sorry what was that for us all. Yes, yes. It was quite shocking. But yes. On the election night of Donald Trump that was in 2016. Like thousands and thousands of students and this campus that have, you know, until very recently been kind of politically inert. Thousands of students just like spontaneously protest like took to the streets essentially started protesting the, you know, victory of Donald Trump, many of them marched to like thousands of students were marching through campus it was like very crowded from what I've heard they, I think they tried to like the highway and then from there the police tried to disperse them. But since that, from my understanding that was like a big sort of catalyst from then on. There were a series of different political groups that tried to become more active so I think an anti fascist coalition that tried to get itself organized on campus. Not quite sure what happened to it, but it formed in response to number one, you know, the rising sort of right wing tensions on every university campus around 2017 so white supremacist group identity Europa had potentially, I'm still not 100% sure but potentially they had members at UCSD and they were harassing various like ethnic studies classes or gender studies classes. So an anti fascist group formed in response to that. When I arrived to campus that was, I think it was kind of that was sort of waning. So like some of the things I got highly involved with in terms of political activism was a lot of the trade union struggles on campus so there's, I believe, six or seven trade unions on campus and two of them had been doing a series of contract negotiations with the university and that had been going nowhere so series of strikes ensued. That was what I was heavily involved with. I think the more recent, I guess, recently, the campus does feel a little bit more, I guess, political engaged and has in the past, two really notable things have been the tragic student wildcat strikes that occurred, I believe, in winter 2020, or yeah, when yeah last year 2020 across the UC campuses over cost of living adjustment disputes, and I know there's been a few especially in the wake of the George Floyd shooting and the various other, you know, energies that have emerged in response to the, you know, series of police brutality cases from the last years of May and June. There's like I know there's been some new abolitionist groups, sort of anti police groups that have formed on campus. So, so yeah the campus one point not very politically active and it's slowly been increasing throughout the years. So, um, what, what's your program of study, what do you, what do you specialize in. So I'm a double major right now I'm studying political science emphasis and political theory and sociocultural anthropology and I'm also minoring in philosophy. And, you know, other particular topics or, or authors that interest you in those areas. So for political theory. I'd say 100% like pure just a prudone is a big influence. I'm still. I like read quite a number of Marxists but I'm not sure if I would ever put that label on myself per se. I think I usually whenever you ask the question I always say like Kevin Carson actually is quite influential on my beliefs. I've been reading him for, you know, years now. I interviewed him on this series of while ago and we work together and stuff. Yes, I'm familiar with. I've never run it for a stateless society yes, I've never actually met him in person but I, and for a while there was this. You know, if there was this theory he didn't really exist that. Okay. A character that we had invented. The way that some people. Some people thought that Wittgenstein is a character that the Vienna circle had invented. Oh, okay. Other than when they first encountered him with a flash. No, yeah, I think I listened to your interview with Carson. No, yeah, I always try to like find interviews with them they seem to be very few and far between. But yeah, Carson's big influence. Probably like some of the ranks and Michelle Foucault I find interesting. David Graver, James Scott those are two anthropologists. I would be a brief summary of the political theorists and anthropologists I find interesting. Yeah, I've been, you know, I had. I've had online interactions with both Scott and Graver in fact I, I had planned to invite Graver to interview, but obviously happen. Yes, yes, I was very unfortunate. And I know, I know some Wilbur has done a lot of translating of football. Oh, yes, Sean Wilbur. Yes, that's who I was forgetting Sean Wilbur I've been reading him for the past year or two or so his writings are pretty I'm really enjoying them as well. And he's really trying to wrestle with the complexity of for dawn because you know, there are all these sort of superficial takes on for dawn and, but you know as soon as you look more closely that dissolves and something else more complicated and I've never asked me to summarize that what's the short version for knowledge and well, there isn't one. Yeah, yeah. He's got, he's very safe concerns. But, you know, I'm trying to pigeonhole and to break your category. So influenced by him adopted some more simplified and stylized version of him, which you can sort of hardly blame them because it's hard to know what it means to be a Prudonian if you're really digging into the actual text but that's what Sean's trying to do. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's great to see that he's like really diving deep into this sort of just very like overlooked sort of complex like political philosophy that existed at one point. And, you know, as it's often the case with you with various figures, you know, they, their names are remembered. People don't actually read them or they'll read just just a hand, you know, just a couple of texts or a couple of excerpts. So, you know, Prudon is famous for like a few one-liners. People remember the one-liners and you can't really construct a philosophy for one-on-one liners. Yeah. So, so, you know, have you thought about your plans after, well, obviously you thought about it, but I mean, you know, do you have plans after, you know, after college in which of those various directions might go in or what you might be doing? I guess right now I'm really looking into anthropology, PhD programs. On the topic of Wilbur and Prudon actually, I know Wilbur's big project is sort of reconstructing a Prudonian social science and, you know, in a similar vein as Marx but for, I guess, a purely anarchist philosophy and then, you know, he's mentioned like, oh, it would be great if people could try to actually apply, once Prudon social science has been sort of, I guess, excavated, actually applying it to social scientific endeavors in the same way Marxism is. So I thought it would be a kind of, I've been thinking about like attempting to do just that sort of taking some of Prudon's theories and actually applying it within a modern social scientific context. I've read plenty of Marxist anthropologists, sociologists, political scientists, etc. You know, having a Prudonian and by extension of more anarchist lens of the sort of thing might be, I think it could be very useful for, you know, understanding the world, I guess. That's sort of what I've been thinking of, I guess. Well, I think I should probably go into depth about the actual organization of ground books. I haven't covered that yet so far. So, what I joined ground books collective. You know, again, there was no sort of strict hierarchies, there were no, you know, no bosses, your bureaucracy, that sort of thing. And I had to sort of get used to this very unique way of sort of organizing this, this enterprise, this bookstore. So the way the collective works is a big component of our sort of like, I guess, governance would be, we have like meetings every when we were in person and during, you know, in operating hours, we would have them like weekly or weekly. And the way that usually worked was the collective would come together. All of us or I guess whoever was available. For that time, for that time being the collective would come together every, like once a week for this like sort of meeting. And at the meeting we would do this thing called it. The meeting would be done in the, to call like a stack structure so various, I guess it comes from the Occupy movement. They have various sort of like hand gesture structures about like who's, you know, speaking order that sort of thing. And then usually at the meetings will have a variety of agenda topics that we need to discuss so probably a good example would be this interview. At our last meeting we had to discuss, you know, do we want to do this interview. Is it worth it who's going to do it that sort of thing who's going to take do the work of organizing it and actually going to the interview that sort of thing. And yeah, that's how we, that's like the first sort of part component of our, I guess, governing structure. And the second thing about like, you know, so at our store we don't have any, there's no like job title right there's no like manager there's no clerk that sort of thing everyone is just a, at the store you're either a member of the collective which means that you're like an actual serious dedicated like you've sort of committed to helping the collective and that you have responsibility to helping the collective and volunteers who are more, you know, they've, they're interested in the bookstore they come they help out with, you know, they might come to meetings sometimes, or, you know, they, I guess they're sort of not under no like strict obligation to help out at the bookstore. So in terms of like division of labor, what we have is these as this thing called the residual responsibility and our RSV college for short. And basically that's at, at every meeting they'll be, you know, certain things that need to be done so someone will have to order new books someone will maybe have to reach out to another student organization and other activist group that we're cooperating with that sort of thing. Organizing events. And then the person with the RR, which will usually be someone who volunteers to do it. It was like a really important thing like, you know, compiling sales sheets or whatever for taxes that might have to actually be, you know, someone will maybe have to be assigned that duty but for the most time, all ours are, you know, taken up on a voluntary basis. And then the person who takes on that residual responsibility it is their sort of task to complete that within the sort of designated time within a timely manner. If it's a time sensitive RR like oh you have to go meet with this group next week then obviously their job is to meet with that group at, you know, that week if it's something like someone has taken our order to restock on books, especially now that might not be, you know, two time sensitive at the moment, but you know, the points of the year might be more time sensitive. So going back to my example earlier. In my recent meeting, you know, I brought up this interview with you and discussed it with the collective brought up, you know, this is Roger Glom. You know, I'm familiar with this work. I think the interview would be fine for Brown books to go to, you know, have. The volunteers take an hour to actually organize interview and, you know, attend it. And yeah that that for the most part probably describes a good chunk of how the collective functions. And then for more sort of, you know, not everything we do has to go through a meeting. Oh, actually, before I get to that I forgot. So the collective as part of our horizontal sort of egalitarian egalitarian governance. You know all major decisions have to go through the same do a consensus process of essentially all members of the collective so you know not volunteers because again they're not. They have responsibilities to the collective but all members of the collective have to consent to certain decisions we take at meetings. So for instance if you want to support a political group. You know, we have to have those usually will have fairly strong debates or unless we're on the same page but like, let's say you know, we want to support this trade union will discuss it will, and then we'll ask for consensus and all members have to consent to, you know, supporting otherwise the collective as a whole will not do so. But yeah and then the way consensus could break down I guess would be, if one member of the collective, you know, it could be, you know, 10 people agree that we should do this one thing but if one member of the collective. Disagrees if they block any sort of proposal and the whole thing is, you know, it doesn't go through essentially. That instance is fairly is extremely rare. I've worked at the bookstore for about coming up on three years now I think I've only. I can only recall maybe like two or three times like a member of the collectives ever blocked. That sort of action we were the whole bookstore was planning on doing. But yeah for the most part we have consensus is pretty once we've had a strong discussion consensus occurs. So that's the sort of more complicated side of running the bookstore. So just the easier part would be, you know, Well, we are a bookstore right so someone has to sit at the counter and, you know, make sales help help customers. That sort of thing isn't like designated to anybody it's mostly like oh, you come to the bookstore someone teaches you how to do. Generally how to sort of do everything make the sales sort of basic information to tell customers like, you know how to open and close the bookstore. That sort of general knowledge everybody has that. And so, you know, everybody just sort of does it. Nobody has to be told to do it they just sort of. That's sort of the expectation of what happens when you volunteer at a bookstore basically. And yeah, so that I guess gives a very brief overview of the internal workings of the collective. Do you encounter any hostility on campus because political organizations of whatever type usually with some kind of pushback from somebody. Yes. So, there's, I guess, broadly two groups that we will have we've had conflicts within the past. Number one is, I guess, you know, general right wing organizations. To my knowledge that has not had we've not had any explicit open confrontation with the right wing groups that exist on campus. I know the year in the past few years before I showed up to the bookstore. I think there were two notable events one was. Let me think. So I guess one of them was not. None of this information is confirmed so I can't explicitly say that something like this is what happened but basically at one point, we were the victim of an arson attack. So, what is it a one of our we have like book cards that are on the outside of the store, and one of them was set on fire, and then that just completely burned down and then I think on that same night or you know what I've been told the event that's a little hazy. Someone broke into the store broke the windows attempted to push over a lot of these shows over here. Port gasoline before and attempted to light the bookstore on fire. The bookstore still standing and all these everything you see behind me there it's still all there. So, an arsonist was very incredibly competent to fail at burning down a bookstore. You know, everything in there is a water paper. I know I mean everything in here is very. I mean, I don't know, I guess, I'm still not sure how that happened I've seen photos like people. There was a strong attempt to, you know, burn down the entire store but um, yeah they failed or something happened. Thank the gods for in company them and enemies. Yes, yes, very much so so for that incident we suspect it was right in groups. Again, we can't confirm that for sure but we are a. We're explicitly left wing, you know, bookstore on campus. So I would be surprised if it was just a and also not I think it was the, the reason we think it was politically motivated was because I think like nothing was stolen or like no, you know it wasn't just a robbery like it was a meant to damage the store and not like, you know, sees anything. So that hints to sort of political motivations, and then the other antagonism we have on campus and this has happened for probably a good chunk of our history has been with the actual UCSD administration. You know, historically, the administration has had quite a number of like right leaning or neoliberal very essentially people would be very hostile to having a bookstore on campus to semi left wing ideas, and especially some, and I guess some more recent years as the university is attempted to bring in more like normal businesses that I guess some college campuses have like fast food restaurants or you know that sort of thing businesses that are able to potentially earn the university money or something of that sort. I think us take up an entire chunk of university real estate is also, you know, not conducive for their, I guess, profit making goals. So, in that regard, our bookstore as well as the three other worker co-operatives on campus have had a myriad of hostility from the administration. At the moment, it's, I would say kind of cordial but I know in the past. This was an art bookstore but another student worker cooperative on campus the chai cafe. The university sort of put up this like bogus excuse for trying to bulldoze the entire establishment get it off campus. There was a lot of back and forth between this but eventually the university conceded that like, there was no just reasons to, you know, condemning and destroying this cooperative center on campus and so they signed a lease with them as well as all the other work cooperatives on campus. But yeah. In terms of right wing organizing on campus that's a little. I'm a little murky on that I'm not I know there are right wing elements on campus I can't say to what extent they're organized and to what extent they have. It's less in recent years but for the most part, whenever ground books collective is engaging with another group it will, in some way or another be have to do with the UCSD administration. Most of the customers who drop into your store are the people who know your store is and they're looking for for it, or the or more of them just people are randomly dropping in that knowing what to expect or somewhere in between. So, UCSD is it's an open campus so you know there's lots of visitors every single day. And occasionally one of those visitors will come by our area of the school the Student Center and you know pass by a bookstore they'll see you know from the outside we have like a hanging window saying like our books and I might catch their attention they'll maybe explore inside. One group another obviously big group are the students on campus, you know, various faculty grad students undergrads. A lot of them, actually, because of the size of the student body and the size of the campus. I think every year we meet, you know, dozens hundreds of people who are like, oh I've been at UCSD for, you know, so and so years months weeks and I didn't know this place because it and they discovered for the first time. But you know everyone always leave saying oh I'm glad this place is here this place is cool. So, occasionally there'll be, you know, some people who either from the San Diego area or they're visiting UCSD or something where they're they are familiar with ground books collective and bill explicitly sort of visit the bookstore, you know knowing what it is. I can't. Yeah, I can't say that happens from my memory, not as often as the, you know, wandering I guess tourists or students coming in but um, but yeah that'll happen occasionally and yeah. I can imagine one potential source of possibility is San Diego is a big military town obviously. And some of the stuff you carry might be a bit of odds with that. Yes, actually, I think we have. I think the members of the collective have discussed this before. People asking for like a military discount. No, well, no actually but actually yeah I don't recall too many veterans or active military members ever. Visiting a store and if they have and maybe maybe they're they have but um, I don't know what he has. I mean I've never heard of any. There might have been any one incident but I really can't recall any specific incidences of hostility from the military. I know, oddly enough, you know we've discussed this before like there's been incidences where I think some like some affluent conservative white parent walked into the store one day and asked like what are the stores political beliefs and then they want so they walked in from the front of the store and they like basically walked past a giant like Cameron sickle and a bunch of like anarchist like symbols and they asked us like so what are the source political beliefs and we just pointed out like right behind Cameron sickle there is that enough for you and they're like oh okay anyways so what do you guys do here and they just I don't know why these just seem to seem to completely. I don't know ignore it I don't know so we've. Yes we've discussed to what extent like you know are we. I guess internal arguments are we left wing enough are we you know, sometimes you get pushed back with sometimes we get. We would expect to get pushed back from certain groups but sometimes we don't sometimes we'll be like is that good is that bad you know. That sort of thing happens but yeah I can't recall any directs I can't recall any major. political confrontations occurring within this within the yeah store something like that. What kind of political disagreements to you have sort of within the store so I can imagine that. I feel might identify more with the hammer and sickle and identify more with the the anarchy symbol those symbols haven't always gotten along happily. Yes, yes no for sure. From my understanding. Either various different political groups will come in and out of the store so I've heard like at some point in the past there was a more Marxist leaning at some point more sort of new left Maoist other anarchists. So right now our current cohort. We're really really really all over the place. Obviously I mentioned prudone schools of like I guess mutualism. That's what I'm interested in. We have other sort of the more classical modern social anarchists of like people interested in Kropotkin Goldman. That sort of thing that's at the store. I did have, like the last two years. It was like a Maoist at the store there was a person who was a sort of self described left communist of like the strict ultra left for diga. You know sort of strict kind of Marxism. Other people. We do actually every year gets people who are still sort of having, you know, questioning their political beliefs that sort of things that they come in, not having, you know, complicated or strict political theories and then they sort of learn from other members or from the books we have. So, so that's sort of, so yeah we're like all over the place I mean any sort of left wing group you can imagine I'm sure we've had at our store at one point. And yeah that's definitely something we have to contend with sort of. How do we, as these disparate very disparate ideologies disparate group of beliefs how do we, you know, do we cooperate to what extent do we cooperate you know like, you know we've had some very. serious issues like for instance the undergrad, the graduate wildcat strike that was very, you know, regardless of our differences everyone was like yes obviously we're going to support this we have, we had full consensus to support and do lots of active work supporting the wildcat strike to any capacity we could. The political group disagreements might flare up at more petty things so you've mentioned the hammer and sickle and, you know anarchist. Historically they never mesh. We've argued like, oh to what extent do we need certain symbols in the store do we need more pictures of mousing down the wall do you need more pictures of Stalin do we not. Should we have less apatista stuff on stuff like that. You know that's those arguments have occurred. And I know before from my from what I've been told from previous members of the store. You know there was also other anarchist marches split and those arguments did. Sort of have disagreements over organization like okay the store is supposed to be, you know, non hierarchical horizontal. You know, is that producing what we want for the store in in Howard doing those ideals doesn't need to be restructured along more marches lines or, you know, is the store at organizing anarchist way is that good or bad. Is it a mark is it less or more Marxist is this good or bad. These debates certainly do happen as within any sort of left wing circles. I'd say for the most part, when it comes to, again, major political issues. You know racial justice anti imperialism anti militarism social justice. You know everyone can, you know no one's ever disagreed on any of those issues. There are more minute things that might later down the line produce substance bigger issues. Those debates have occurred but. But yeah, I mean no I mean no one's any. You know obviously I've argued with people with different ideologies but I'm never like, I'm never going to talk to you again never gonna work with you again. Over over something that's like theoretical. Oh yeah. My experience, it doesn't seem to be any particular correlation between how big or small the point of disagreement is and the extent in which people take it as a reason to ever talk to you again. Yeah, sometimes they'll, there'll be some really massive theoretical experiment that people have it work together over. There will be some very minor point of the new show but that will be for some people, the, the absolute sticking point and then. Sorry if you're going that way then I got to got to fight you. So as soon as you know it's, you know it's hard to predict and that's what people will pick fights everyone hoping won't. So C process is, you know, it's organized kind of more or less long consensus lines but kind of informally, you know, since we don't meet in person we meet online and not all of us keep up with the male list to any given. So try to do things by consensus but you know someone just doesn't show up. And I haven't been showing up lately because I've been sort of swapped with work. So who knows what they've decided about me and over the last month. Right. But usually consensus, sometimes when we can't get consensus we have to resort to do a majority vote. That is a failure. Lots of names. It's the simple straightforward and often there's, there's a consensus on deciding it by majority vote at least though it's like a. Of course, we've had our. We've had our share of irreconcilable splits to the left, or in some cases been pushed out for using that you know, people when pushed are using not just for mostly mostly it's not just right there are optical reasons for something worse. Right, right. But. So, you know, we, we've got, I can't even remember what the title is now a a while it had those coordinating director. I can't remember if it's still a title user or not. But it's sort of all responsibility and close to zero authority. You know, nagging people to do something so that something to happen. Right. But you know, for the most part, you know, you know, we've got our squabbles. But some of us have sort of more combative modes of interaction and others of us with the most property. We get along fine of course we are our resources are pretty limited so the range of things that are between decisions is fairly narrow although that's been that the soul, engage a lot of attention sometimes. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure I have any more questions for you. I just want to help you once we stop off I'll be thinking some that's all these old things always work but it's been really interesting. I wish you the best of luck for the store and for your own personal career. Say hi to the other members for me. Any any last thoughts. Yes, so I do believe whether there's some sort of restriction not ground books collective will let the moment we're close for the summer we will be open in the fall. Our hours will probably be posted on our Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or all three. So if you want to know more about ground books collective you can check it out on again our Facebook or Twitter on our Instagram. Probably just saw you are off our website but the website seem to go nowhere. Right, yes we need to. We, I think we just read get our website so we might have to mess around the hyperlinks again. Yes, I can send you a link to our actual function URL. If you'd like me to use in this video you can send me a link to which ones you want me to use or I could just grab them up here off the Facebook page or whatever if that's all right but any particular photos you'd like me to intersperse here and there. Let me know that. Okay, yeah for sure. Yeah, I'll try to send you anything that is noteworthy. Okay. Thanks a lot. All right, thank you very much for this interview. Thank you. All right. Goodbye.