 Aloha! Welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Grace Chang, and I'm joined here today by Pamela Rottner Sakamoto, author of Midnight and Broad Daylight, a Japanese-American family caught between two worlds. So today we're going to be talking about reflecting on identity and exclusion past and present. So I welcome Pamela to the program. Hi Pam, nice to see you here on the program today. Oh, thank you, Grace, for having me to Global Connections. Thank you very much for coming. Yeah, you have like a book that has come out in hardcover early last year and paperback earlier this year, Midnight and Broad Daylight, and it's received quite a lot of acclaim. Really interesting, really interesting story about a Japanese-American family during World War II, and they're, you know, some of the family members are in Japan, some stay in the United States, and their experiences. So what led you to this study and, you know, the background that you have that brought you to this project? Oh, thank you. So I was living in Tokyo, and this goes back to 1994, and I was working on my dissertation, which was on a totally different topic, diplomatic history topic, and I happened to meet the protagonist of Midnight and Broad Daylight, a gentleman named Harry Fukuhara by chance, and he was a retired U.S. Army Colonel who was in Tokyo as a favor to a friend, and he was escorting a group of former Jewish refugees who had survived the Holocaust thanks to transit visas from a Japanese diplomat. It was a very unusual historical episode of rescue, and that's what I was working on. And I was at this press conference, and I saw this gentleman who was navigating the crowd of former refugees who were returning to Japan, which they had traveled to in 1940 and 1941, for the first time since that time, and they were overwhelmed by emotions, and he was making them feel at home, and then he was talking with Japanese diplomats who were there to recognize the heroic actions of one of their own, but it was a complicated story behind the scenes, and he was being received very respectfully by them, and he was talking to the diplomat, the press corps from both the United States and Japan. He seemed to handle everybody with equal aplomb in both Japanese and English, and I was startled by his capability in Japanese, and his poise, and everything was native, native English and native Japanese, and it was subsequently because of this meeting that I heard that he had a remarkable story of his own, and that was the original encounter. Oh yeah, that's so interesting, and so this story is, can you tell us a bit more about the story of the family's experience itself? So the gentleman I met, Harry, he was born and raised outside of Seattle by Japanese immigrant parents from Hiroshima. His parents had five children, all children were U.S. born citizens, and were making their way as Americans on the West Coast. Their father died at the height of the Great Depression, and their mother took all five children back to her native Hiroshima because she couldn't really afford to stay in the U.S., and there was so much anti-Japanese discrimination in the U.S. that it was hard for her children to stay as well. But two of those children, after spending several years in Japan, insisted on returning to the United States, which they viewed as their rightful home. One daughter named Mary and Harry, the middle son, so they returned in 1938, and they ended up being caught on the West Coast after Pearl Harbor, when 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry were interned, or really incarcerated, interned. It was really a euphemism for being imprisoned. And they were two of those, and Harry volunteered for the U.S. Army because of his bilingual ability out of an internment camp in Arizona. And he was sent to the Southwest Pacific as a linguist, as a translator and interrogator of POWs. And while he was island-topping, his brothers who had stayed in Japan were inducted into the Japanese Army, and they were perhaps going to be in the same place at the same time. Yeah, on the opposite sides. That's kind of crazy. The only event that intervened was the detonation of the atomic bombs. Well, on their family hometown, Hiroshima. Wow, that's really compelling. So, I mean, the history itself is really important to know, but I think the way you tell it through the family's experiences is particularly compelling, especially about how their identities were being challenged because we have this conflict between the U.S. where certain people, certain ancestries were not seeing as belonging, and a very strong nationalism erupting in Japan, which probably made some of the American-born Japanese look at that with suspicion a bit. Oh, so true. So, no matter where they were, they were betwixt in between. So, growing up in the U.S., they weren't really aware when they were young, except it was subtle, like Harry wouldn't be invited to certain friends' houses. He knew instinctively that he couldn't date a white girl, even though he wanted to. They all knew that job opportunities were limited for Japanese-Americans, no matter how outstanding they were in school. And so, there was this difficulty, but yet this can-do-Americanism as well. But it all changes after Pearl Harbor. And then, for those family members who were in Japan, and even for Harry, during the years that he was in Japan before he went back to the U.S., there was really overt anti-Americanism. And although they looked Japanese, this family, they had been raised in the U.S., the children, and they were American. They acted much more American than Japanese. And even though they had Japanese language skills, they didn't move like the Japanese. They didn't think like the Japanese. And particularly Harry's youngest brother, Frank, he entered an elite middle school based on his academic ability, but then he was mercilessly bullied, and he suspected. And other people really corroborated that it was because of his American background. Yeah. I mean, this is interesting because it's this insistence on purity on one side, right? And then this kind of very racial exclusion on the other. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can't imagine that's a really, yeah, difficult history. Not that it's that far away from some of us, right? In the 60s and 70s even, we still experienced a bit of that. I think recent, you know, in recent decades, we've kind of, I feel, I mean, I was born in the late 60s, and then, you know, coming the last few decades, I feel that things had improved. But nowadays, I think, you know, race has come back into the forefront. And recently, you were invited to the Tucson Festival of Books, and you were invited to speak on a series of panels on race in the United States and the Japanese-American internment in the U.S. and the Holocaust, which is an interesting combination of topics. I mean, do you think that these historical instances, the Japanese-American internment, the Holocaust, are these relevant to our discussions about race in the U.S. today? They are. I mean, one of the reasons that the Tucson Festival of Books was focusing on these themes was because it's an anniversary year, right? They wanted to recognize the U.S. as Arizona, and the festival was held at the University of Arizona. And then there were all these new books coming out about the internment and about the Holocaust. And so it was that kind of occasion, but absolutely resonant. And the panels were over-enrolled. They had to live stream outside in the commons. And so there's tremendous interest, which is a good thing, because I believe that education is the key. And if we're open to learning the history and discussing it and furthering our education, then as a society, we're going to be okay. It's when we shut down and fall into that sort of nationalism spirit, which is excessive patriotism and alternationalism. And when we classify others as the other and seek to create differences and fall back on stereotypes that were in danger. Yeah. I mean, that's great to hear that there was such an audience and interest in speaking about this and learning about the history itself, where people are very making that connection, you think, with the history that you worked on, and you worked on the Jewish refugees during World War II. So something linked to the period of the Holocaust. This is something that do you think that the audience kind of understood that connection? I think so. I mean, to some degree, an audience is self-selecting. They choose the panels to which they want to go. But definitely, I mean, they were there asking questions about what is happening now? What stages are we at? What should we be doing? Because we are living probably in historic times and at least at the very least exciting times and volatile times. And I think one of the messages is that we do have to look to history. I don't believe that history repeats itself. I believe that there are distinct patterns. And if we can remind ourselves of those patterns, then it's possible to bypass some of the dangers. And certainly, the internment was a huge error on the American government's part. I mean, it was a stain on the Constitution. Unfortunately, the legality still stands and that's why it's scary that the law is on the books. What law are you speaking of? Well, the Executive Order 9066 that President Roosevelt signed that authorized the internment has never really been overturned. It was challenged by Fred Koreyamatsu versus the United States. And the problems of the internment were recognized and the injustice perpetrated against this Japanese American gentleman who was arrested for resisting the internment was recognized. But the law itself has not been deemed unconstitutional. So it's frightening because the law is in place and hopefully it will not be used as a precedent. But we've heard that kind of language during the presidential election in which a supporter and somebody who worked on the Trump campaign had banded about the internment as a plausible solution to a perceived Muslim threat. And so we have to make sure that we do believe that this law cannot be employed and that these kinds of executive orders really damage our society and that the internment was found to be totally unnecessary. Not a single Japanese American was ever prosecuted and found guilty of treason or espionage out of that hundred and twenty thousand. That's a really significant number of families. And two-thirds were American citizens by birth. So Japanese descent but born in the USA with citizens. And the remainder who were Japanese immigrants to the US. I mean they were hardworking contributing legal immigrants whose world was overturned virtually overnight. Yeah right. I mean in the process right they lost their whatever professional lives their their property in many many cases. So there was a lasting lasting effect to that. But I'm still startled about this executive order. The basis of it hasn't been overturned and it being brought up during the campaign. I wasn't yeah I wasn't aware of that that there was a there's a legal basis for saying internment is a potential solution. I don't like that word either. I don't either. That gives me chills. I mean they know I mean both of us I mean what the words that come to mind but yes they have no and well justice the late justice Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia came to the Richardson School of Law at UH Manoa and several years ago and he was asked about internment whether that kind of episode would ever occur again. It's interesting because it was at a quiet time. It was post 9-11 but it wasn't during the election or even close to the election and yet he responded in in times of war the laws go silent in latin and it could be in times of crisis it doesn't have to be war it can be in times of a scare and so he was explaining to everybody in a non-political way that when we perceive a national security threat that's when these kinds of things happen and it is plausible well and I hope it's not probable right that it merely remains possible yeah something to be vigilant about yes and I think vigilance is the best word it as as citizens if we can watch and read closely and be active and protest when we see injustice I mean we're talking at heart with the Holocaust and the internment about social injustice right serious forms well thank you Pam okay we'll come back in a minute um so you're watching global connections and I'm here with Pam Sakamoto talking about reflecting on identity and exclusion we'll be back in one minute aloha this is your house Beatrice Contelmo come and join us every Friday at four o'clock on perspectives of global justice are you looking to get shrunk join us on shrink wrap hawaii my name is Steven Phillip Katz I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist I see couples individuals families because you know why because we all have problems and if you're curious about shrinks and what they talk about come look at my show shrink wrap hawaii and maybe you'll find your shrink hi this is uh Jane Sugimura I'm the co-host for condo and cider and we're on think tech hawaii every Thursday at three o'clock and we're here to talk about condominium living and uh issues that affect condominium residents and owners and I hope you'll join us every week on Thursday aloha aloha welcome back to global connections I'm your host Grace Chang joined here by Pam Sakamoto author of midnight and broad daylight and we're talking about reflecting on identity and exclusion past and present so Pam welcome back from the break we've been talking about identity and exclusion in history particularly in the U.S. during world war two but also a bit about the holocaust I mean these are extreme examples of exclusion up to their physical exclusion too in the japanese-american case the internment camps the concentration camps not holocaust centers in europe um but but you know like we were saying we you know uh justice galeas uh wise words you know that that we warn us to be vigilant about about any development towards towards these kinds of extreme actions but but you know leading up to those events in history or those you know I don't know how to say it not events is too too light but but you know they were more subtle kinds of of policies and and tone in in in the community building up um are there any parallels that we can see as far as that that history so both with the internment and the holocaust I mean the the soil was seeded for decades in the case of the internment and for hundreds and hundreds of years in the case of the holocaust so none of these episodes happen spontaneously out of the blue and there's a degree of planning as well uh so uh with the present day parallels um well I would look back at the internment and look at the um anti-japanese sentiment that was so widespread in the press on the west coast so that slowly turned the populace against the japanese-american community and that dated really from the late 1800s on as soon as the chinese started immigrating to the united states and they were invited to work on the railroads and they were followed by the japanese for the same reason but as soon as they were perceived as posing an economic threat to white laborers anti-asian sentiment flared and even though it would quiet during periods of prosperity it was always there and then legislation was there on the state and federal books so in terms of now I mean we see that kind of anti-muslim sentiment in the press at certain press and we we see stereotypes being used we see people jumping to conclusions and it does slowly poison the air or make it more toxic and certainly with the muslim ban it's now being challenged in the courts we've seen two versions of it but this is legislation and whether the court decisions will hold and I hope that they do and certainly the state of hawaii is taking a leading role with our attorney generals actions then if the court holds that is a very good thing it's when I think the court falls into line with the prevailing prejudice in a larger society that a society's stability and the minority at risk are truly in danger and that's what we saw with the holocaust with all of the nuremberg laws passed in 1935 long before the holocaust itself in terms of genocide in terms of the deliberate extermination of a people long before that was put into motion yeah yeah I mean you know with the immigration or even like initially at least now it's being challenged but yeah families were separated because some families couldn't some members family couldn't arrive returned to the us and with the more also I think this is something that strikes me you know we we hear a lot about yeah families being separated because there's a more rigorous uh effort to deport people you know as far as you know people who are not top priority I guess right like we used to have we had the standard about because you know these issues about about allowing allowing immigrants to stay in the country and now there's a more rigorous effort to do that so I kind of see that yeah that parallel with we don't have that physical actual physical detention of persons which I hope we never get to but definitely there's a beginning physical separation of families that are that's a little bit troubling I actually would like to know more about the the temporary detentions that have taken place where people have been held at the airport or then removed from the airport and taken places because the little that I've seen in the press and I'm reading the same articles as many of us is that the conditions um and the treatment is is the conditions are harsh and the treatment is quite cold and um frightening so uh you know I just it's a slippery slope and we've got to make sure that we don't use euphemisms for um any part of this process any during the internment we called uh these county fairgrounds which were re repurposed as prisons we call them assembly centers and people were living in horse stalls and then we called the internment camps camps you're just going to camp for the summertime but these were prisons with barbed wire with watch towers with the guns facing in and we we have to really watch our language and watch our actions mm-hmm yeah that's very yeah that's a very important thing to keep in mind right so and what is different about today you think uh united states in 2017 versus back in the in the 30s and 40s well that's what keeps me optimistic um because there are families like this family in which uh harry the middle son was intern serves in the us army ends up having 50 year career in the us army retires as one of the first japanese american colonels is highly lauded the 500th military intelligence brigade which covers intelligence for the pacific and it's at scofield barracks is uh that headquarters is named after him oh wow which is so amazing because he was a gardener on the day of the japanese attack on pearl harbour and uh and look how he made a life of service and that um scofield barracks area was strafed by japanese zeros and route to pearl harbour so there are these remarkable stories of people who have overcome obstacles and contributed and they've only made our country stronger and they're in our midst i also think that we uh have an educational system now that is not militaristic uh japan had a militaristic system uh germany of course did and that um suppresses free thought and so we're very true we stress critical inquiry now uh in our public and private educational system and and that's healthy uh so education um the dissemination of information we have social media it's it's a double-edged sword but the truth is if something happens such as the airline event recently uh everybody sees it and everybody has a voice and pop public opinion can truly make a difference in a very rapid manner now i believe that uh our government at heart uh people knows that our what our values are and i'm talking the entire government right as a whole and uh we we have to hold these values dear so and you know i do hope with vigilance uh that we're in a much better place yeah but since situations can uh sort of move out of control quickly that's why we have to stay on top of everything yeah yeah always important to to remain aware and and respond uh in a way to to reverse any any kind of movement that direction and yeah this is yeah we are well after the civil rights era whereas during world war two right the civil rights hadn't even even uh been a large movement as it was in the 60s and then um yeah i think we are generally more aware and try to to give voice to all different people than listen so that's a positive a positive thing right i mean well there's a backlash we in our society right now but um we are becoming ever more diverse and by the time the next census takes place uh we will have a society in which the minorities are the majority many minorities and maybe we'll look more like hawaii uh where we really can serve as a role model for the rest of the nation yeah well thank you so much pam and and you know not only for this book which you put so much work and and this beautiful writing into but you know to continue to to to participate in these public events to to bring these issues out in the foreign that we you know we explore our history uh as we talk about the present day so thanks for joining me today thank you grace my pleasure okay and thank you all for joining us on global connections i'm your host grace ching finishing up here with pam sakamoto the author of midnight and broad daylight and we'll see you here next thursday at one p.m aloha