 I'm going to call the town council finance committee meeting for Tuesday June 11 to order at 9 35 a.m. And thank all my colleagues on the committee for being here it says on the Posting outside the door that this room is scheduled for us for three hours and I have one to assure everybody that That we're not going anywhere near that and But we do want to get go forward. So I'm gonna stick with the Agenda Are proposed to see if anybody else says anything just had say that under other Unanticipated business. I'm gonna have a very set of brief comments about Percent for art because that will be on the agenda a couple weeks now, and it's only Purpose today is to make sure that we've formulated Our discussion enough that we get the information we need. So that's the plan, but the first thing on the agenda for today is the 2019 budget amendments that are required and Sonia is going to Explain what the amendments are and This is different might add this reminder about The fact that the way the town meeting voted budgets is different from the way the council voted the budget so the Well, this was a traditional thing that was done at town meetings frequently It's gonna be less of the need in the future, but Renshaw, please explain what the two transfers are and How the process works a little bit Thank you So the order in front of you is transferring as Mr. Steinberg Mentioned we voted our budgets by functional area at town meeting So that was general government public safety public works Community services so when there was a shortage in one and savings in another we typically moved it rather than asking for a supplemental appropriation and This is the last time we're gonna have to do this and I'm a little excited about that, but We've had a lot of savings in some functional areas due to They can positions and then we've had a lot of other deficits and other Departments because of some transitioning that was done But we've got savings to outweigh that and there are they are in the functional areas They need to be so I don't have to ask to cover those like I am here Typically we have a snow and ice deficit And I'm asking you to move $15,000 from the general government section to Public works snow and ice to cover that deficit And the second part is a transfer 73,875 from from general government to public safety to cover raises that were voted for 2019 in fire department and to cover we had some equipment that Emergency replacement of a scuba compressor which is to fill the air tanks for the fire department And it was slated to be on the capital plan I believe in 21 or 22, but it died before we made it there So we had to replace it they replaced it using the operating budget with the knowledge that we would cover this at year End and that was about 28,000 of that 73,000 and it's been taken off the capital plan And that's it any questions Pretty simple so We would expect Have you scheduled those for a specific meeting for the Fly one Excuse me. We will I thought it was Monday night. No, I think we're doing it Monday night. We're doing it Monday night Yeah, so we need a recommendation from the committee So I want to see if there are any questions about Process generally that piece that was talked at the beginning or about the specific transfers Good job of explaining so I feel I understand it And I think that the one thing that I would want to add is that We did vote all of the Five functional areas for town government as a single amount so that there would be Ease of administration of the finances of the town but that I Assume that it will continue to be the practice as it has been in the past that you will be providing the council with quarterly reports that actually detail each of the areas so that We will still have Regular comprehensive reports about Expenditures and revenue and how that has gone against the projections that we started with at the beginning of the year Absolutely on the quarterly reports that mr. Steinberg is referring to are on the accounting website and Third quarter reports there at the end of the year. There'll be a final report. It will show All the departments which departments were in deficit, which were not And we will continue to keep our books in the same format as we have in the past When was the last report done for the Through March 31st, it's on the website I Don't think we've sent it to the committee I have not sent one to any committee this fiscal year at all I think just the transition and the confusion and I'm waiting for the town manager to Kind of guide me on which committees that was going to whether I was going to present those in front of the council as a whole Or just the finance committee, and I think we just aren't there yet Let me suggest that at the meeting on Monday the 17th We put a motion up that it just go automatically to the finance committee for a review and then You know just communicated as part of a regular report from the finance committee to the council unless there's Something exceptional like a huge deficit. I don't think we need to have it on the council agenda. Okay. Okay. It works Yes, do you does the general government side? Build in a certain cushion so that when we need this so I'm looking at next year as well So when we need to do this kind of transfer because of unanticipated expenses and some other operating budget No, we don't we don't purposely build in a Cushion but we have that's where we keep all the salary Increases when when all the contracts are in negotiation We don't put them into the operating budget or into the other functional areas. We wait until year-end and move it So a lot of times sometimes there's vacancies in those functional areas And you don't have to move the money because we don't move the money if we don't have to put a year-end When we do the next budget, it's all built into those functional areas. So it kind of gets spread out. So sometimes that's there not always and general government is just a better place and it's Easier to control It has benefits in there and a lot of things. So there's a lot of Things moving around so we usually don't have a problem this past fiscal year We voted our I mean we went out to bid for our property and casualty insurance and we saved close to a hundred thousand on the bid It's a new company that we're using so we didn't ask to reduce our budget because we don't know Till we get at least a year or two under our belt. We don't want to make any adjustments to the budget But that's there so there are things that happen in which the quarterly report will spell out to everybody so Think we're pretty well ready to move on the only other thing if you're my colleagues in the committee who've not dealt with this before One of the things that we always are dealing with is that ultimately we have the Department of Revenue looking over our shoulder all of the time and That's part of their job to do that for all municipalities And we're they make sure that we're not allowed to Carry a deficit not cover an expense, but there is an exception and the exception is snow and ice removal so that Because they recognize that that is such a frequent uncertainty for communities So technically a community can end a year with a deficit in that one category But I don't recall us ever having to do that No, we've always made the adjustment able to make the adjustment But it's just one of these things to be aware of This is because you get there, but I think we can at this point I would take a motion that finance committee recommends appropriation and transfer order for the Commending the 2019 budget Second discussion all in favor indicate with raised hands Okay, so there's it's five to zero and That makes it the unanimous vote of the committee Can I just mention one more thing also in the past? We had the reserve fund transfer of a hundred thousand dollars So if we had deficits in other places the finance committee had the authority to just do a budget transfer for emergencies So we also had that in the past. I just wanted I Just wanted to get one other thing straight on this motion that we automatically refer it's a quarterly budget report Yes, thank you, and when is it usually come like one month after the end of the quarter or I try That's just fine. I try to get it done as soon as possible We have to make sure that all the revenues that come in that are getting recorded in the previous month So sometimes that could take the whole Subsequent month to get that done, but thank you Yes, I'm kind of wondering about budgeting for weather related thing And I guess I would recommend that we put more money in for weather things But because besides snow and ice, there's potential flooding. I mean I just our weather is just so chaotic Also, I guess that in that little pile I would include trees because there can be human crazy tree die-offs related to bad weather and We also could have these little spot tornadoes. I mean, I've had them here and lost like six trees at a time I just feel that our weather is crazy at this time So wouldn't it be better to put more money in that and then if we don't use it that it's really nice. I Think that would be great. It's just the our resources are or short So when we the committee meets for its next meeting on the 25th If it's possible to get the most recent quarterly report sent to the committee, I Don't anticipate we need to spend a lot of time talking about it But it would give the committee an opportunity to See what the reports look like by looking at the most recent report. I'll send them out this afternoon Thank you Or you can just send the link so that people know how to find it either way Can I discuss if we have someone officially taking minutes? Yes, we do Melanie is thank you Okay, so moving along then the next item we want to talk about as a capital plan process and Have Trying to we postponed our vote till today on recommending the capital plan I believe for the council until after last night's forum So we will need to Recommend the capital plan Order to the Council at this point, I believe but So I See if there's Do you want to start do you have any initial comments? I think we also talked about at the last JCPC meeting having a conversation today a little bit about the decision process around the four Building projects and at least have an initial conversation about what we think would be a good Process for that to to follow over the summer and into the fall Yes, and I was going to get to that too. I wanted to try and separate out the specifics of the next year's budget What we need to do in council action from the process a little bit, but I think that they're both there and then we get into the Third question, which is actually a separate item, which is the analysis tool Yes So my my question on turning to the capital plan on is If as we take a vote on what's being recommended for FY 20, are we also Looking at the way the 10 years are set up because I've sent a few comments in on things that I don't think should show up in The 10-year plan that if we could address them and the example I'll give is the library is put in both for the amount that the library said it would be on budget general fund and the 6 million they would raise separately and then And I'll stay just with library and you came back to me with another point about library that there's a To a couple hundred thousand dollar sorter that's spread over two years That had one is the books and one is the cataloging the books and during the JCPC meetings the head librarian said they actually wouldn't buy that separately in the current building and It's costs are included in the grant proposal So I felt that the two hundred thousand shouldn't show up in regular because it actually doesn't exist and it affects 2021 and 2022 so I'm these questions are about the out years and then what Sean Said back which is also true is looking out into the future We have nothing budgeted for the library right for capital because they're assuming everything will be taken care of With the grant Whereas the schools have some interactive that if we got a grant X year you wouldn't have to do the Roof so it's it's partly an issue maybe for next year of a way of displaying it that With the grant this is the way The next year's look like without the grant This is the way it looks because in some cases we're counting the debt for a new school Then we're still fixing the roof which is what then makes the out years look worse than they might be You know, so just trying to think of so some of it is literally Why do we have it there and then others is how do we display it differently? Yeah, and Sony you can let me know If you agree or disagree My perspective is the the vote that the recommendation you'll make is primarily on FY 20 We know the out years needs some more really just time from JCPC that just wasn't there this year because of the schedule and the process But I agree there's lots of things in those out years that I think we just need to have more conversation at JCPC How they're presented and again you mentioned the schools Which I think is a good one if the if the schools were approved for a new building in December There's several millions of dollars of projects that would probably come off of the out years in terms of roof projects We put them on there because we wanted to keep them on the radar for people to know that if the school is not Proved at some point soon that those are going to be real needs But that's how the schools chose to present that information which was different than how the library presented their information They took off the stuff that they would have to do if their projects wasn't approved Or didn't go through so I think That piece I think needs a lot more conversation at the JCPC level for those out years But I think for this group and for the recommendation. I think it'd be primarily primarily focused on just the FY20 projects Stay Was for a second with the order that we have to vote at the next meeting And you made a reference to that in a moment ago about what is the scope of the order? I was trying to look but my recollection of the order and I'm not getting to it real fast is that it only approves the Expenditures recommended for the next fiscal year. It is The order itself has no reference to the five-year plan or ten-year plan Correct. It's only for fiscal year 20 so we what we would be recommending if we Recommend the order as presented is Just the section of the JCPC report that lists the Specific expenditures recommended for the next year correct And it's just the cash capital. It's not the borrowing the borrowing it can be done when we're closer to the projects and closer to More realistic number Well the borrowing was put into separate orders for that reason and The three borrowing items We were not going to take that up at this meeting correct So it is the capital expenditures from the budget from the from the actual By 20 One budget, but we are going to take up the chase or did we already do all of the other JCPC actions? We did didn't we? Of the finance committee voted the recommendation. Yeah, the recommendations. I'm sorry recommendations for CPA I'm switching gears entirely Did we we already voted all of the actions necessary for CPA except for the 132 So then if I understand this I Don't have to worry about how I'm going to wrap my head around the whole Five-ten year process with all the interactions We just have to do one little piece at a time because that would be a lot easier to think about just doing if The current year. Yeah, that would be great. Yes The council is not actually committing itself to the specifics of a plant of a of the long-term plan the long-term plan is really a Planning process and therefore it's always in movement and But the one thing that specifically does have to be voted is the piece that we're talking about and Trying to think of what I'm finally found the In the report we got last night were as I understand it if it's the cash side It's the 3.5 million that's cash. So we're not even voting on the Intention to borrow for No, we are not we're not voting any borrowing authorizations So proposed order 2005 that was presented when we presented all of the orders to this committee and to the council Was the capital program appropriations and It is Recommending it is an order to The sum total of Three million five hundred forty three dollars eight hundred Excuse me three million five hundred forty three thousand eight hundred ten dollars be appropriated for the purchase repair and installation of New and then it goes on and it breaks it down into three pieces Along the lines that were presented last night and have been presented previously With the time some total for equipment buildings and facilities But And it gives is the source of funds that it is all money being raised and appropriated. It does not Deal with anything whatsoever with future years. That is the extent of the order so I Think that what we need from the committee if the committee so wishes is a motion to recommend to the council Approval of appropriation order FY 20-05 as presented to the council in the at the June 3rd meeting Yes, I Just have a clarification question to understand the process Little bit. I'm still confused as in when do the district councillors when can the Make recommendations or I know we can't increase the budget and all that but when do like like when I keep hearing about bus, you know, we don't have bus shelters or People complaining about bike paths and stuff So what is the time for councillors to make recommendations or have a discussion about that? I think that's actually an important question. It's We need to discuss that as the next agenda Peace where we said we would separate out talking about the budget that we have to adopt for the next year and the adoption of the And then the process For the following year FY 21 and the reason that we're in sort of an awkward place is With all of the budget not just with capital This was the transition year from the former form of government to the new form of government and The questions that you're raising are just are not exclusive to The capital budget but actually to the budget as a whole that a Process of discussion and establishment of guidelines needs to be Placed into the process in the Fall as it had been The practice of the prior select board and finance committee to do that But where we are is dealing with a budget that was you know in Process and being developed when we were inaugurated as a council so Still Is there anyone who feels that they would make the motion to recommend Appropriation order 2005 as presented at the June 3rd meeting for the council No, I still move Second, okay, so those emotions made second any further discussion on that Okay All in favor decade is that raising hands and saying aye Aye, so it's five to zero Sony can I just request that when we post The minutes for today's meeting That I I can probably find it that we also just post that order You know so that people will see what we're talking about I can send it to you because I now have it Yeah, and so I'm just saying it's an easier thing if we call it order number 20-05 That they see the content of it Yeah, I'm actually the prior Trying to look If we had a transfer order, I guess we did but it was a different transfer Well, if you give it a number we'll we'll have that for the meeting for the council meeting itself I think we've done what we need to do So let's get into the discussion then Which shall any started talking about which is the JCPC and finance committee process? for Next year for a capital process and Already making a note of Peace that shall any just said is Saying more about Not just the committee but the council Recommendations and So let me just yes Well, I you've done some of this in the schedules that have been made But if we had kind of like Budgeting schedule for dummies which would be more detailed as to when we ask this kind of thing when we look at that Kind of going forward because there's so many steps in so many ways that we need to pin it down So we know when we go to our constituents when there's going to be a Hearing because when this this when this level of decision gets made In the in the long unfolding process I think that's the goal over the summer is to develop such a schedule and You know We had talked about trying to do that at the july meeting and the reason that we had come up the july meeting is by then We might have our additional non-voting resident members of the committee and So it would make it logical that they would be involved in the process from the beginning JCPC met on June 6th, and I'm Working on a document right now that I will be able to complete and forward to you Hopefully by our next meeting But I've tried to in that break down what the general Discussion was and then I was going to try and pick out some pieces That really relate to this committee But I'll give you First of all, I broke it into seven separate categories of discussion that took place One is about how we orient new members of JCPC the overall process communications in that communications includes communications between the members and the boards or committees that sent them to JCPC The role of the manager in the process Citizens requests Which has been a part of the process the last couple of years, and I think was the JCPC is endorsing Continuing the citizen requests part of the process other funding Which is what our relationship is to What we know about grants and Other types of funds that support capital including Our relationship to the CPA process and then the last thing which Dorothy just alluded to is the timeline for the process So those are the pieces that JCPC felt that we needed to pay some attention to and They do not have Another meeting scheduled it's not that they are unwilling to meet but there's no purpose in there Scheduling any further meetings because the last process was done And it's actually the tradition had been to conclude with kind of the overall summary It struck me as the question was raised about How things like the bus shelter Exampled that Chalene gave came up and It could have arisen as a citizen request of course It did not other things did come in the citizen request as was reported in the JCPC report but I wonder if we should Is the next round of this document comes Talk about citizen requests and council recommendations And build that into the Process because it's goes be it will go beyond JCPC. No one to get up. Yeah, and I I think We haven't done liaison yet Officially, but the there are a couple key committees that relate to all of this so tack in Theory would be prioritizing bus stops crosswalk sidewalks and that Has the potential the way it set up to influence what DPW then does with funds. So just trying to think of You know at which point in which venue You're bringing it up so that people don't have to go to the tack meeting to talk about something and then the JCPC Meeting to talk about something but for people to understand a clear path forward and They have a new little a new little two-person or with some Residents added a way of ranking, you know when they look at what things come in to have things rise up to a priority So they could sequence it. So if you said Six bus stops What where would be first second third fourth, you know to think of over time? So they're trying to think through a way of feeding that into the DPW and it's not there yet, but just it's another committee that interacts with JCPC as does CPAC. Yeah Along those lines I may make sense to have tack presented JCPC at some point about What projects have come to them and what their backlog looks like and how many or what priority? That could help inform JCPC as well in terms of how much gets allocated towards roads and sidewalks If they heard early on in the process from from that committee One of the things we've talked about but we haven't formalized is Which members of the councils are following which committees, right? And so for example George Ryan is going to tack Just really focusing on trying to get speed bumps on Fearing Avenue Nothing happens quickly and there's no promises yet So rather than us all kind of dipping in here and there beyond some some things to familiarize ourselves We need to get a Kind of a list of who has decided they're going to follow and then be able to report to us as a Council and that was my comment about liaisons. I'm going to tack also for a Longer list of issues But but just trying to understand the process that they're evolving Because they prioritize then so they don't respond to just fearing and then summer Street Other requests for speed bumps crosswalks bus stops. Yeah Yeah, I'm just looking around to see if there were any other So I think that probably the most difficult this part of the discussion in some ways is the JCPC's history was that it was originally appointed as a mechanism for the school committee and the library trustees and At that point the select board and the finance committee as it existed to work together to think about the big picture big projects and It kind of evolved a little bit into the year-to-year expenditure review also but The reason that it was created is the joint capital planning committee to do that is in order to Try and build some consensus amongst those major elected boards in particular about how these decisions get made and You know, there's obviously right now. We have the obvious Piece that we have the library It has an interest schools that have an interest in the towns that have an interest in major building projects and Which will be the next item that Sean's gonna Help us to look at but You know the question then comes is to How we honor JCPC's role in that but also have the appropriate role for the council recognizing that JCPC Ultimately is making recommendations that the council makes decisions and we are a committee of the council so it's like There has to be a smooth flow between the three bodies that all exist in the charter and We want to honor all of them, but we want to make it work So I just wanted to point that out. I didn't know if there was any discussion people wanted to have about that topic but Clearly JCPC is feeling that they need to spend more attention in the next year on the question of Major projects and the input that they might provide through their boards is that You know, I thought more about this and Andy and I have discussed it on many occasions as well as with Paul in fact JCPC originally started because of the big projects Not the small ones, but then we didn't do any big projects for a long time. And so they took over the small ones But the world was different in that the big projects would emerge then With JCPC finance on through the select board and on to town meeting So what I think we're trying to avoid is having Two committees Look at big projects as well as the council because ultimately the council makes the decision Except for when we take it out for the vote and then the voters make the decision and ultimately they do anyway so What we talked about last time was having a couple a joint meeting or a couple of joint meetings with JCPC and the finance committee and I increasingly like that idea because it gives the signal Clearly that we want all of the groups that have capital projects involved in the discussion and yet We recognize that ultimately it has to go through finance on to the council So even if we you know as we set up a process for doing the big buildings If we could just build in those joint meetings, I think would make a lot of sense I think that would be good, but I'm feeling the need for another level of analysis and Lynn is a member of JCPC and I know that Kathy's been attending and Before we do a joint meeting with them I would like just some kind of free thoughts about How the two systems committee held how the two bodies Interact and maybe some ways in which that could or should be changed Yeah, I think that that's true. The reality is from the from day one JCPC is only a recommending body It it's not a decision-making body and It recommends to the town manager whereas finance committee recommends to the council Sure And I think so going in the in the past JCPC's purpose was to help That the mayor of the projects and the need for the projects whereas finance committee solely focused on just the financial piece And correct me. I'm wrong. Mr. Steinberg as you've been on all those points But it but what we heard at the last JCPC meeting is that Maybe that's not the role going forward for JCPC to get into the nitty-gritty of the merit of the projects in the future Partially because of the amount of time it took to do all that and it limited us from looking at the bigger picture Because we spent so much time sort of on the very small projects So but I think in the past that was sort of the distinction that JCPC vetted the merit they heard from the Parma heads put forward what they thought was a Sound capital plan and then the finance committee focus on the financial piece of can we afford this and is it in line with our goals? The one thing that was unique that is unique about the period that we are in is The four major projects really are on an unprecedented For the town we've I cannot recall that during my experience working in the committees and I think the last major building we built was a police station and what was at 89 and So we just Now have this backlog of buildings and we're trying to manage it appropriately In the last round of discussions that happened before the school committee vote We Ended up instead of JCPC having just the process we had Lynn was added What we referred to as a five committee meeting because we added the DPW fire station study committee to that discussion and otherwise it was the The other four boards that you felt been referred to previously to look at the sequencing of the and the kinds of things that are in the analysis tool and out of that came a decision to That we would probably need to do two debt exclusion overrides the one that was certain was on the elementary school The one that was likely was library, but that was never it was never it was a not a decision making body the body that had the role of Deciding what should get before the voters is that exclusion override was the select board and The select board made the decision to make that we would place the schools In an override, but never had to make another decision and the sequencing of the projects Was always a little bit out there and on with uncertainty because At that point we were in a little bit of a different situation. We had We were in a process with the mass board of library or the Mass school building authority. We had an application in with no certainty as to what was going to happen with it with the board of library commissioners and we had No place to put a DPW facility In no decision actually on what we would do with the location for fire department at that point so that's the history is to how it evolved and I think that we now need to Recognize that the process has to be right for where we are going forward. Yes Building on what Sean just said about what the role of the finance committee is like looking at the financial aspects I think that's something we've been also we need to define clearly, you know, especially as it came up with the The project in North Hampton Road, like what are we look are we looking at just the costs and Affordability and or are we looking at what makes a project of financial success or We probably need to define What aspects of a project that we're looking at as a finance committee? interesting analogy to North Hampton Road, I think that You should feel free to comment on this, but we were certainly getting some expressions from other members of our council that they did not want us to get into things that were outside of the what they viewed is in Financial role, but it was never defined as what the financial role was and More on that topic when we get to that on the agenda If we're on it, I mean I've got thoughts, but I don't think we're there yet. Yeah Yeah, I don't mean to the topic, but that is an example I liked your phrasing that would make it a financial success. Okay. Yeah, we're important phrasing. I Think it's we're sort of in the same place where we were with the when I made the comment about The percent for art we need to be very careful about not getting into things. We're not on the posted agenda the Plan was is that this was going to be on the next agenda as the major topic So that it would come after the public forum So I wanted to limit it You know, I'm not going to say no But I would suggest that we limit the discussion on both of those and that and percent for art The information that we might need to inform us but not to actually discuss the topics Because we haven't noticed it. It's not fair to the public as well as being not being legal Just you know if we're going to transition to also start talking about the big projects and the tools I just want to say on the CPA projects more generally I had a long list financial questions and what I Attempted to do was send it through the chair and hopes that it would go to see back But they didn't all go I don't think and then it was if you have as one counselor a long list You don't want to dominate the discussion so trying to think of a way to Interact earlier would work and what's been interesting about on a couple of them someone heard I had extra and Questions that didn't get answered and so now I'm in an individual discussion with one or two the projects having them answer Financial questions, you know, and it so was just like trying to figure it that we don't rush or we say we're gonna have this much time and how do I Think what I probably should have done I Sonia saw some of my questions on the general CPAP and answered them, but I could have sent them directly to the chair and Had them decide whether it's project level Answers or whether someone there could have answered but I wasn't just that project. It was on land projects It was on another housing project. I had a list and tried to do focus on the dollar side of it Yes Along those lines going back to sort of the very beginning of our conversation So what I've heard is that for next year in JCPC we want to build in early opportunities for input From several different sources. I'm just gonna read them and you can tell me if I've captured them And if there's other ones that I might be missing because it'll be helpful to start thinking about this So obviously the citizen requests that would be one Mechanism the town manager we want his perspective early on in the process. We want to get counselors perspectives early on in the process The department heads obviously will come and make their presentations We talked about the JCPC. We want to hear maybe from CPA at some point whenever it makes sense On what projects have gone there? I think we might want to hear from the Transportation Advisory Committee in terms of their backlog of projects Are there other groups that maybe I missed her or important? That just groups that we might want to also build into something for next year. I Think the real Have those conversations in a way that the Departments under which they would fall Are also part of the conversations Because there may be very logical reasons why we're not going to proceed with X this year Or there may be very logical reasons or we may find out that At the last minute we got to do X in the previous year And that was part of that discussion we had last night of could we get a list of the final projects? That we actually get done each year so that we actually see what DPW has done so it's Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think if we structure it hopefully we structure where that Inputs early enough we can get the Response from department heads and the planning so that we can have a Full response to if something that we don't do something here's why or here's where it fits in the future, but I agree with that point Yeah No, I think that that's a good point a good way to summarize it I think we all recognize the reality of the budget And the constraints on the budget and the amount of money we have and it was obvious in last night's forum Because we had set aside nine and a half percent for capital We have to pay our debts and we had an amount left and You know the members of the fire department staff through their union were here and talked about the equipment needs but the Ladder truck that they were made reference to and what they said was about about the Ladder truck. I can't in any way disagree with I've been hearing about a ladder truck for a lot of the years, but it's also It was 1.3 million dollar piece of equipment and The question is how do you fund the purchase of that size and we also recognize that We're actually one of the few departments. Maybe the only department in western Massachusetts with the ladder truck of that size and It's used as much for Inter community assistance as it is for fires within our own community Because it is such a unique piece of equipment and how we scope that So these are not simple issues, but in the end it isn't that we didn't want to spend money on a new ladder truck but we also had a limited budget and We were back to the question of the recommended priority Which I think there was pretty wide consensus on That our roads really need attention and that that was where the priority was And I might make the same comment even more briefly about the operating budget that You know people have talked about things that they've identified that they would like to see on the operating side, but the highest priority I think for the all components libraries the schools and the Municipal departments managed by the town manager was We provide important service and we need to make sure that we have the funds to continue the services that we provide and Most much left over I'm glad you brought that up because last night when that whole issue of the big ladder truck came up I Vaguely recalled that we had had a discussion about was there a way to get regional funding for that equipment and Didn't and did I didn't want to bring it up because it just didn't I Didn't have any more information than to say there would be a desire to have a regional Contribution to that so But I wanted to check back with the group and say am I right I remember that as well Yeah, I heard that also that it's a regional resource So it would be nice to figure out regional finance regional financing and the other part of the discussion is which buildings really Ladder trucks are sometimes used to get really deep into our property, but for really tall buildings There are only a few really tall buildings To which the ladder truck applies So you know just trying to think of it's a resource for home Yeah, I was gonna say of those tall buildings around the UMass campus and do they have their they said It's not big enough for UMass and it can't be used for UMass So I don't know what UMass does but they ruled out they don't it's just not how that how fires are fought In New York, you wouldn't you know when it came down to the World Trade Center You didn't have ladders that could you didn't have ladder trucks? and the Value of ladder trucks as was presented in that discussion that JCPC was that it enables you on even a house fire to get elevation and to Use elevation to try and help fight the fire from down down and But the when you get to a taller building like some of the taller buildings in UMass, it's not gonna do that any more than The other piece of equipment at the comment. I was gonna make is that we the decision last night was Yes, we understand this is very important But we have made a commitment to roads and sidewalks and on Friday I did another byline thing with stand with Steve Schreiber and me and it was about the new CRC committee And we talked about lots of things and after it was over. I said I didn't mention Roads and sidewalks and to say that this is something big we've done at that point the young Man who was the filmmaker comes up to me and said what are you gonna do about the roads? And he went on about how he rides his bike and we're supposed to be a bikeable town and you can't and I thought boy This topic it is the thing that every single person talks to us about so we it's a hard decision I mean and I do feel the fire department people Compared to the public are very understated And we have to really listen to them, but we have to listen to the issue of the roads and the sidewalks now and When Kathy told me about a couple weeks ago that you can tell what town you're in by the roads I did not believe her and I have since found out it is totally true. You can tell exactly where you are Except that I hear people in North Hampton saying the same thing about their roads and sidewalks that people say here So And when I've driven out Burt Burt's road to a friend's house I have to say that that's as bad as any road that I've seen though. I think they're working on it finally Yeah, it's interesting one other thing I'll just show you is a sidelight news. I've had this discussion with the town manager Under me when when mr. Musanti was town manager. We did take out a bond and Did a whole lot of roads it once by taking out a bond and paying it back over time and North Hampton is in that process now of taking out a bond for their roads Which is why we're all kind of aware of it who paying attention to this minutia and And the counter argument is that if you build a school with a bond Schools can outlive the bond if you put a do a road with a bond There's no way that the road is going to outlive the bond bond will you'll be paying back the bond one They still have to deal with road. I think we should turn the topic over to the analytical tool Unless there's anything else that needs can be added now The clarification again when do we setting I mean when are we going to have those? Conversations about the process and all it will it be like that in the in these type of meetings and we continue the conversation Are we going to dedicate it at put it as part of an agenda and focus on defining our role and the process and then have those meetings with JCPC So at least as it relates to JCPC There's a small group of us that are going to meet to come up with a new Not maybe not new but a revised Calendar schedule process for next year. I think we're going to meet over the summer to do that So at least for JCPC, I think we'll be thinking about that when we develop that Revised process and I think that we will start the process as a part of the general process at our July meeting as we previously discussed We set out our plan for the next meetings, so Why don't we turn the attention to the question of the major project analysis tool and Where we are with it and then comments as since we were the body that was looking at it and commenting Do we do a quick yes overview and then we can get into the feedback and comments So this is beta one as we discussed having titles. So this is the very first draft I think you've all had it for several weeks now. So Includes an instruction tab, which I think probably needs to stay there no matter what version how this gets changed in the future I think having an instruction tab is helpful Has a glossary I just sort of started a glossary There's other terms we think should be added But really the terms here relate to things that are in the workbook to help people understand what those terms may mean or more information on those terms It has This page which you've seen before which may be a page we want to think about this allows people to Estimate the costs of the the various projects under different scenarios It can be a little confusing if you don't have a close working knowledge of you know The different options and how just how these things all interrelate. So If we do keep this tab, we probably would want to Maybe streamline it some more or do more instructions to help people understand it but again that the basics of this tab is This base cost estimate is sort of a fixed cell. This is based on information We've got from architects or it's an average of information. We've gotten from from different architects and different reports in some cases We've just taken some round numbers based on prior estimates for the DPW and fire station for example Then it allows you to set the year So you can play around with what year you think the project will be done that drives cost escalation So if you say it's gonna be done sooner, there's less cost escalation If it's you're saying it's gonna be done in 10 years then then the cost escalation really adds up It also allows you to Play around with what you think the net zero premium is which again, that maybe that's not something we want people to play around with there's Mostly pretty good information on sort of what that average cost is So but it lets you add that in to the numbers and then it pops out a total cost based on when you do the project So just for example Library total cost is thirty five point six million estimate right now if we did it in 2023 Based on when this estimate was done there would be There's actually no escalation because it was already that original number. I think was already escalated to that year And so that would be the total number For some of these other ones if the estimated number was based on a specific year then the cost escalation would kick in and Then so really all that is just to get you the inputs for this sheet so This is the sheet that you pop in the numbers the year. It's gonna happen. How long the bond will be for Whether it's a debt exclusion or not a debt exclusion How what percentage of grant funding you think there will be for a project and Then also how much you think we need for ongoing capital needs. So that's everything else that JCPC does And then all of that along with our existing debt gets rolled into this chart over here And this the black line going across that chart is how much available funding we have and an estimate of available funding in the future And those bars are the the payments out of the money we have available So the the green bars are existing debts the yellow bar is tied to the ongoing capital So if you change that to three million or four million that that bar is gonna grow And then these other colors are tied to the the new projects So in this particular example, you only see fire department DPW because it's got the school library Checked as a debt exclusion which would come from a different source If we uncheck those So if you check it and you say it's not gonna come from the exclusion then you see the schools pop into that and you Can see we start to go over There's also this Area here where it says affordability amount over the 10% levy So this is just a sum of how much those bars exceed the black line over all the years So it's not exceeding it by 30 or 38 million in one year It's sort of the total of all the all the years that it goes over So again, this is another sheet that it's very Open and flexible and people could put whatever they want in there and there's some benefits to that There's also some drawbacks to that and so we you know I've heard some feedback that we may want to put some guard rails in to kind of keep the assumptions and the inputs So to a certain range so that they're realistic And Yeah, and then you know this borrowing capacity analysis You know the new information we had since last time that our financial advisor updated us on was at school That is not subject to the borrowing seal to the The yep the ceiling So that should make a big difference in terms of if we're going to bump up against that ceiling So we would have to adjust for that and Then the last one just shows the debt exclusion impact on an average property and we talked about maybe having some other Numbers in there to show if you're above average or below average by X dollar But this shows the you know the high point of the debt exclusion and what the addition would be to property taxes And then as that winds down as the as the principal's paid off So that's the quick said overview Yeah, I'm trying to get to these last charts and for some reason Whatever you emailed us isn't allowing that It is you've got a scroll to scroll down Thing called variable chart and keep scrolling down and And then it it loads a little slowly And You need to probably download it to your drive because it doesn't work very well when you're in the excel online Oh, it doesn't I mean, it's just it's a slower transmission Here go ahead have a couple questions Do we start borrowing at what point do we start borrowing for a project? for example in this year's Capital project We've identified potentially three projects to for schematic design and One for match to MSBA would I Assume those are borrowing Right and we would borrow those within this year because We would go out and retain if we love if we were moving forward We would go out and retain the company to do the schematic design for both dpw and fire If if depending on how long it takes we I know we anticipate having to add a little time to both fire and dpw because Net zero wasn't there at the time the feasibility studies were done I don't think we have a good estimate as to how much time we have to add but We're throwing out around two months. Okay, so the schematic design might take Six to eight months, okay If that is the case and then that meant in FY 21 You know all things being amazing We would actually start Building a dpw Is that the point at which we start borrowing? Can I still clarify my question? Are you asking and you're very clever? I just want to make sure Is it when we start borrowing or when we would start paying on that borrowing? Answer it. I want to know at what point this now becomes part of our debt So I'll start and Sonya can correct me if I'm wrong So we'd start borrowing in whatever year we think we're gonna start having costs and we borrow just what we need to cover Those costs and so we're paying it's a pay as you go To on a building schedule you that get to X and we pay Y right paying from the money We borrowed but in terms of paying the borrowing off I Believe in the past it's typically we've done it typically when the project is complete and we know exactly what that number is It's converted you usually use a temporary borrowing while you're doing the project and you confirm convert that to a permanent Borrowing when the project's done and then you have a payment schedule So the so we would borrow as we go throughout the project is being completed when we would actually start making payments on that You could potentially make interim payments on that throughout the while the project's going on But I think you generally convert that to a permanent bond and then have a schedule How does the temporary borrowing during this construction fit in this chart? So when you vote a borrowing authorization like theoretically the 250 for schematic design that gives us the authority to go out and contract with with a Whoever the architect that does the design And once they start doing the work as long as we cover What we paid them by fiscal year and we won't have any deficits So normally we do a short term borrowing once a year to cover bar any contracts that we borrowed for And we've spent money on so we don't end up with deficit at year-end when you go to do the actual project It would be another borrowing authorization. So we'd have like two separate debts for this Typically we would keep the schematic design probably as a rollover debt Which is like paid back in five years and we don't actually bond permanently for it When the school project is authorized and we we have the authorization to go ahead and get a contract for that Then we would just borrow You know 10 million in the first year because we know we're only going to spend 10 million And we would do it with short-term borrowing just pay short-term interest on that until the buck project was completed And then we would go out for a permanent bond and we'd start paying debt service for 30 years and your permanent bond pays off your temporary Yes, yes, you know, so it Is some interest rate in between and so what is sort of factored in here is so in those interim years Where you're doing short-term borrowings or temporary borrowings there's you do have to pay the interest So if you're not even if you're not making a principal payment We're obligated to pay the interest which on a large project can add up and so I believe in the projected this ongoing capital Part of what would have to come out of there is that the interest payments Which will be part of our projected and then existing debt number So just to stay with the hypothetical, okay? suppose We were able in FY 20 To do a schematic design for DPW That would allow us to then bid and Start building an FY 21 And I don't know how long it takes to build a DPW maybe two years, okay, so if you were Looking at the gray bars would that move them up to FY 23 So the one thing that's confusing about this can be confusing about this tool, which is just sort of a caveat of when you use it is There again, there's a year you begin and the year you pay it and so It wouldn't start coming out of here until we start paying it because it's not going to start coming out of the money available to JCPC until we have a debt schedule and we're making those premium payments premium premium and interest payments So let's say the project was started in 2023 Finished 2024 2025 we converted that to again the long-term debt at that point and started making premium payments Then 2025 would be the right year that we would start making that payment or maybe the year after But it's usually going to be a cup that the payments on the projects are usually going to be a couple years after when the project begins so if the project begin in 2021 and Finished by 2023 Would we need to move the gray bars? Maybe 2024 or end of 2023 depending on the timing of all of it So that's one question. The second question is Right now interest rates are very favorable But by the time we would convert these they may not be Is there Any way To lock in low interest rates. Yeah, we can ask our financial advisor, right? I don't know how we would without the projects being approved and knowing exact dollar amounts, but we can ask if there's You know, what steps can we take? You know other than just moving as fast as possible. Are there any other steps we can take to try to Take advantage of low interest rates Right, especially. I mean because sometimes I know at the university when the interest rates would go low We would refinance right on our debt. Yeah refinancing is different from advanced financing and I'll turn this on you to help me with this Because you get into a complicated process that I always had to rely on others like Sonia to explain if we got there Which is arbitrage and whether we're violating arbitrage rules Thank you. The other piece though that if we So this assumes that we would not go out for the fire station as a debt exclusion Currently. Yeah, again, this is just a sample. Yeah, right now With that right now like if so if I unchecked it then it comes out Okay, no that they what you took out was DPW Yeah, so if we if you uncheck this box That means you're saying you do want it to be a debt exclusion so that that would come out But then your bar down here goes up in terms of the impact on the property values because the the impact on the tax rate is higher With that and and the other piece I guess I want to clarify is we all had that aha moment when we were sitting here and Heard that the town side of an MSBA match not part of the debt ceiling is not part of the debt ceiling And you've verified that now. Yes. Yep However, it doesn't mean the taxes can bear it right it just It's not part of the debt ceiling and long before you know the financial advisor was pretty clear like You still even don't want to go that close to your debt sale preferably you wouldn't go, you know up to your debt ceiling just from a Operation standpoint that that means you're taking on quite a bit of debt, so Because ultimately Ultimately we need to think about the impact on our Residents who are paying property tax and That's part of what we're managing Dorothy. Did you have something just a quick question? They compare comparable interest rates for short-term borrowing versus long-term borrowing at least as of this moment because It's a completely weird interest curve So our financial advisors told to use 5% for long term for our long-term planning I think that's conservative compared to what the rates actually are But that's just the number he's advised that we use to be safe Yeah, I just want to say right now we're Well, then an inverted interest curve means the short-term rates are higher than the long-term rates and When that has happened in the past that usually meant we're heading for a recession, but that's just a correlation But the long-term rates right now are in 3% range, you know when I'm checking across even going down to not as high a rating as we are at A's out 2025 years, so one of my I shared with Everyone I just sent it through now since we're in public I sent Sean a bunch of comments on the model on a even if the advice is five Show us a three You know allow us to have that be one choice And you'd have to get someone to approve you doing that You know in terms of we don't want to be or really optimistic on it but but it it interplays a lot with the With it with how much debt and so then I had a Several other questions that are more picky But it the model allows you to choose the price tag for these projects And I wanted to limit it to the range of Someone thought it was possible for example. I don't want to try to have someone plug in five million for a school You know just on a you know if we think 40 is the best guess is 30 the lowest it could be and and Either that or fix it so you can't choose it at all, but don't let us choose it at too lower rate So I've shared with everyone now my comments on it because I was trying to do Move things around and one of the things if you take Well, it doesn't really matter But if you look if you look even out at his bar right now for a couple years, we're under our cash limit You know so we we have room to spend more So I wanted to know if it would be possible to say in the years and if and Lynn if I don't Make you the construction start earlier than 2025 we have three or three years of that Could we do some of our catch-up? With other things during those years So that we're at because two and a half million what he's built in is two and a half million We're spending three and a half now, right? Yes, you know, you know So it's so it's tight. It's a tightening of belts, but if we could spend more in the years before the big buildings come online You know it so the model makes it look like it's all Hitting there, but if I want to spend more and then have a few years. I was spending less. Yeah Yeah, no, I think that's a good point I think so the way it's up now is that the 2.5 million kicks in in 2021 Because at one point that was the first year we thought a project could start so that's when it kicks in But I and realistically this would that gap would be spent on other capital projects to the JCPC process or set aside for for the larger projects, but you're right Using this opportunity that the other thing I backlogs the other thing I couldn't do with this Was I'll do a hypothetical on one project suppose library You decided you would do it more the JCPC route rather than for for Larger reasons that the six million dollars doesn't get raised. We don't think we can go up to 159 But you said there is a roof. There's a this there's a this can we break it up into pieces? And I can't easily do that with this design So the best I could do is like put in a number like 12 million And you're saying if we don't do the new building and we did the deferred maintenance And we did and we didn't I didn't I then I also didn't know if you know you're gonna do deferred maintenance over four years in pieces can you bond can you debt Can you go out and raise a bond saying I'm gonna do this in a series of five steps? I'm not building a new building, but I'm doing major repairs and I'm gonna borrow it all can you so then this model works fine Cuz I can put another number in For when I think that would start So I didn't know whether I could so if you did I mean again this isn't unless in this is ideal But just if you wanted to do it like this you could Change that square on the library projects. They put 10 million 10 million in is the what the deferred maintenance is Take out the grant piece because now there's no longer a grant for that And then uncheck the debt exclusion if we don't think it's gonna come from there And that will sort of estimate what those if you see the purple little bars that are in there now So the model lets me do that then yeah, it's kind of being a little It's adapting it from what it's the original purpose, but you could get to that Estimate and when I was just so everyone knows I was playing with this a lot on how much debt exclusion could I avoid and the answer is Not very much You know that I'm just gonna do one building. I couldn't find any one that was enough So if I just do one and then I did a combination of fire station and school and that was a pretty good Combination if those were the two, you know on a which tomb might it be because we haven't made that decision yet But but looking at what happens if so the tool allows you and I got asked by another counselor Last night on this package JCPC because it assumes two are out right. He said have we made that decision? I said no, no, but it was just plugged in Yeah, and the challenge I see that's gonna be really difficult is you know as you noted getting down to this 2.5 million From what we're currently spending because this 2.5 million is for everything So that's gonna be a large challenge in itself just coming up with a plan in the future that gets us down to that number and Then the other one I asked and this is I think Sean is rightfully holding off rebuilding this until there's consensus about but I asked this in JCPC in the years Where we have multiple buildings in a crunch Would it be possible to go to 10.2 10.3 10.5 in terms of a set aside? For capital and having the other thing the fire station people handed out last night is the staffing Issues at the fire station, you know that in the operating budget. They're suffering, you know aside from equipment But I didn't know whether it's even Possible to think about that so if it's not possible to think about it I wouldn't want it in the model But I want thinking like for three years put in 10 and a half and then go back to 10 I think it's a choice. I think it's possible And it's a variable we could again with ranges say, you know, 10 and a quarter 10 and a half maybe up to 11 at the most It's a trade-off between 10 and yeah, but yeah, but I think it's I don't think there's any rules against it that I know of so I think 10 was just picked as a An improvement on where we were at the time so I don't know if there was also because the financial policies in town Say that the gold is 10% and that we've been we know we've been struggling to ever get to 10% So that we kind of knew that that was the logical ceiling from experience in policy And I completely understand that this would be a major decision to even think about that And it to me it's interactive with if there's new growth This has been built into an assumption, but you're seizing more you're basically seizing more of the new growth than for capital than for operating Without knowing any way of Can you live on the operating side? So if it's completely not feasible, you know, we got to me on operating We got a gift this last year with what happened with health insurance, you know, you talked about it with schools that point six It's not going to be point six next year We can meet we'll be lucky if we don't go back to four and five But it's not we got a breather of one year across all of our budgets Dorothy I'm still concerned about the interest rates for short-term borrowing and for long-term borrowing and One of the ways you've shown how we can do things is by spreading things out But what if you really believe that the interest rates going to go out? I mean I I bought a house in the 70s. I remember high interest rates and they really limit everything So part of me feels this real pressure that we should really take advantage of the low interest rates now and do The borrowing and get moving very fast because I think things are going to change Have you built that in or have thoughts on that? My thoughts are it'd be really difficult to do all those projects In a really tight time span I think it's just the nature of it. They're gonna have to spread out to some extent So there's gonna be some projects that get borrowed five to ten years if not longer in the future Just from an affordability standpoint I think it would be tough to take on all that debt all at once But we can again we can run that model and see exactly what that looks like I'm just speaking them sort of Not using this yet. So and I think the question is you can you take on debt when you don't have a project you're paying for? No, you have to start the project. I mean We're envisioning three years from now. We need 30 million dollars. So we're gonna borrow it No, that speaks to Earlier about you can't borrow money and just let it sit there in our interests. You can't you can't you can't do that Yes So my thoughts about the model is partly based shall you invited me to come to a district meeting in your district and to present this and I did and What I found was in order to even explain the model To an audience that was had some people in there who had some degree of sophistication with town Finances from serving on town meeting and finance committee even that I had to do a PowerPoint Explanation which probably took me 10 15 minutes of Sort of explaining the entire process of borrow of how we do Capital and I mean I still have the PowerPoint at home so I could pull it out as to what I did But it was really essential to lay the ground work so that people would understand the tool and they looked at the tool and So I'm a little bit Concerned I think it's great for us And it would be great for some members of the public who have that sophistication but I think that it could also be a source of tremendous confusion for a significant number of people and That we could be setting ourselves up for either statements being made in Letters to the editor about I looked at the tool and this is the result and then we have to respond to it or People calling us up and spending a lot of our staff time explaining How the process works and why the what they're saying doesn't work or whatever however it works I Got some concerns as to whether putting this out to the public in anything with this level of sophistication is really a practical thing just to add do what Andy said and I think also having the baseline as the most Optimistic figures which are pretty unrealistic and that was the thing we ran into also as we started off with What was the baseline and it looked kind of okay? That seems like we could maybe but not realizing that those are very unrealistic figures. So maybe the base should be The more realistic Yeah, and I think some of some of it is we're very early in the actual Process for many of these projects as well. I mean we haven't done we don't have a good cost estimate We have a sort of a high-level cost estimate for DPW and fire station But I think the schematic design is where we're going to get a much better Number by agree with you. I think having that information potentially early before this is goes out would be helpful So that's just more based in study. I Agree I Agree with Andy's observations But I also feel that There are some people who Sure, there's quite several many people in Amherst who Could actually understand the model. I think the biggest problem is People don't understand the building process and the borrowing process and so by the time you get through that You've exhausted most people's attention span and then trying to put it into the model It just is like Hold it. I just learned what the building process was. I mean I'm sitting here looking at this having spent Four years thinking about building a DPW and fire and understanding Schematic design and yet I'm still asking questions at what point do we borrow and does it show here and that kind of thing? and so it the whole process of debt and Building is What I think is going to stymie most people So in order to ever go out with a model you've got to be able to go out with this is how you build a project and This is how you accumulate debt and here are the rules around debt and here is what it then looks like I mean, I just played with this based on what you know, you've given us and You know trying to see You know get things under the line and down to zero and all that other stuff and I got there And I you know, I moved DP up beat DPW up and I kept fire out for debt exclusion and I cut the price on DPW and Then I cut a little bit just a little in the out years on the Gold but there's a point at which we might go up for one year or two in the gold area But down for one year or two in the first year of DPW because then you exceed the line and I have a bachelor's in mathematics, so I mean it's like this is not for your average Resident and I'm messing up. I'm not being critical. I'm just being this is tough stuff And I think if we can get to the point that there are five or six of us on the council Who feel comfortable with this? We're gonna be lucky Yeah, and I'd also just say I think people the public would also have to be very clear that this is a planning tool And it's somewhat of a high-level. It's got a lot of details, but somewhat of a high-level planning tool as well There's a lot of assumptions. You know, we're going out 30 years when we get to you know This may help drive us towards a plan or a configuration that we like But ultimately when we get to that configuration, we're gonna work with our financial advisor to get you know very detailed Schedules within more detailed interest rates Based on that the the time that we're at So that's another thing I just want people to be clear like this is this is sort of a high-level planning tool to help drive us Push us in the right direction in terms of a configuration But again, there's a lot of assumptions, you know that Just could just be different when you think you're looking 30 years down the road, so So I I also did a presentation With this and I decided to make my life simpler than you made yours anti I Went back to Sean and I got him to do Three stylized scenarios that were extremes of each other, you know the first was best guess on the cheapest school option that he's got and No overrides, you know a couple of overrides and I forget what and then spread them out And I just did those PowerPoint charts, you know the final results with some lead-in bullets And it worked extremely well for people on this graph Understanding that we only had so much money and if you went higher than that we weren't doing it Getting to talking about the tax side and they said you're gonna have really hard decisions to make, you know That was their conclusion, you know thinking about You know, what were the most important buildings to them? And some people listed fire first, you know And others school was always one of the top two, but if so one possibility would be You know get this working so some Council members can think Interactively if they need to and I did things so Sean did, you know an example like I had two of the buildings not built till 2027 and 2032, you know, I moved them way out But to do a few stylized Examples to show you didn't necessarily get out of the hard decisions, right? But you got more under the line years with some combinations than others So one thought would be, you know, whether it's five six seven What I call stylized frozen so it's not an interactive tool and we're showing what happens with a Under this under that under whatever which is when I've looked at You know, and then then you can also simplify the graphic, you know Cuz I just did a here's the price of each of these things on page one because I didn't allow the price to vary But that's the way I've seen federal Groups when they're talking about some options behind the scene someone was modeling But they just put out a few different they call them scenarios, you know to show you the impact of deciding this that or the other Not having it be that everyone can click all the boxes I Just want to comment that that this is a political process and that the council has two more years or two and a half More years to go and I think we have to make really strong and firm headway because so often in government If something is being in the process or not really done and then new people come in it doesn't happen it languishes and Right now we have the commitment and we have to find some way to move forward as firmly as we can Which will be a subject that we're gonna have to talk to probably in a different forum but We are With some things we have to see where we are with the location for Land for DPW so we can move forward there but the biggie is Sean's friends of the MSBA He needs to light their fire with it. He's trying to figure out how But can I ask on fire in DPW? You know with it if we enter schematic design phase Re-looking at to extent they could share the current site at all They cannot but but not building the full version of DPW in building part of DPW There is not enough land at the present DPW site to share That to share it between the two even I mean we actually looked at this We act we looked at could we build the fire station on the front part of the DPW where this more of the wood Stuff is and so forth but the problem is you can't do anything without tearing the vast majority if not all of DPW down and so and When it comes right down to it for the fire station you need at least three acres and for DPW You need at least eight and DPW is trying to consolidate everything in one place Yeah, I understand that and that and there's and they're okay, ultimately as we go through schematic design and Say, you know, it's not going to be a $35,000 building. It's going to be a You know $28,000 building they may say the compromises may be not everything's going to get consolidated first of all There's two things that never get consolidated and one is your water and the other ones your sewer Yeah, they're they're going to stay right where they are because they are but you So as you look at DPW the reason to put that schematic design is so that we can make those tough decisions and also look at Something that this model doesn't allow but over time it would and that is whether or not we stage DPW in a way that we build some now and maybe For instance some of the equipment it's best if it's under minimal heating Others it's okay if it would just be under cover. That would be an improvement of vast improvement over what we have now So what you know what you put under? Minimal heating is a much is a higher cost than just getting something in a quonset hut I mean, that's pretty yeah being pretty severe So I you know I've just had a couple different people say because they share showers for example, you know like no they can't And so the end and you're answering. No, we've looked at that. Yeah, I mean we have looked at it the reality is that right now our fires and our fire and emergency people They don't even have the proper decontaminant Space and decontamination space for fire is different than decontamination space for ambulance and The reality is for DPW you really don't need decontamination space because you're not out with Carbon and or you're not out with potentially Drugs and stuff like that. You're basically out in the open. So it's it's a very different operation and it's We have looked at it and it's not it's not emerged as an option Yeah, so to recap what I've heard so far in terms of my next steps in terms of improving this is potentially make it so the interest rate on the borrowings can be adjusted within reason Making so the prices are fixed but also can be adjusted within reason for each of the projects Allowing the tax levy that's dedicated towards capital to maybe go up a little bit more again making it a fixed options that people can pick Including more info on the building and borrowing process And then potentially seeing how this works Maybe just setting it up so there's different scenarios people can pick pick an option that lays out what that option is and then these charts would Adjust based on what that person picked and we can you know identify what those scenarios are And that would limit maybe unintended use of the tool Yeah, I guess my thought Because I've obviously pondering this for a while one was built on Kathy's comment That for some level of people and charts that have Here a bunch of options we looked at if you look at all of them you can Contrast but not actually give them an interactive tool at all. Just give them the charts the end charts The second thing was is that if we're going to have an interactive tool that we Exercise a little bit more thought about how we bring people in to use that and it may be that At the initial stage In order to get access to the tool that people need to attend a workshop And that we sponsor a workshop in which we explain the background and they can actually sit down where IT can set up a group of computers and people can use them Is an interactive learning session, but I don't What that would do is only people who are serious enough that they would want to spend the time Will do that and that they will then be people who self-select We may we're not picking them by Politics we're picking them by Willingness to put in the time to learn it in their sophistication and understanding of the technology those are the kinds of things that we could do that would Make it available to some segment of the public that's best able to use it And are you suggesting that those people that we train? actually then Are able to demonstrate to others I Think that we need to decide and I'm not sure I'm there yet is to Whether They can access it through computers that are on site only or They can then have access to it at home. I think that's things that we have to think about but For people who have the time and the Sophistication and the level of interest that we do something to make it available because we said we would the The bottom line is there is a point where we're subject to Public records, right? So I'm not sure that once I Mean even now somebody could ask for this It's an interesting question and we would probably need to talk to our public records expert is to Or any Analytical tools as opposed to a part of a public record This must also I just Imagine Boston They must have some analytic tools like this that they Meet and talk about but they don't give open access to the entire range of what the tool can do You know so the question is how much he shown could limit even more some of the things one can do with this You know with so only fixed price points and only a few decisions to make it more like a child's building Set that you can't build a building that falls over or something and honestly if somebody was really good at Excel and that So much that they want to use this tool they could probably build something like this themselves the inputs themselves They're not anything like proprietary. It's what's the cost of the building? How many years by the interest rates? It's not you know, there's not It's not that complex in terms of the inputs It's just complex in terms of all the formulas and tables that sort of feed into it, but the inputs are pretty People know what they are for the most part Well, I would not say that people who attended a workshop could then go teach others That would be certifying them and I think that's going beyond But I think if you have a workshop that's announced to the public and that the public is not chosen But self-selects what it what it means is that a few more people who care might understand it better But let it stop at that point and that way. I think it's safe. Yeah Yeah Anything else that we you want to hear from us or the Yeah, I think the last thing is just you know, were there any either on this screen or the screen and maybe we do away with the screen You know, wasn't anything that was particularly confusing in terms of just this screen layout This screen is not interactive with the other one All right So I was thinking maybe doing away with a screen and maybe modifying the other one to factor in some of these pieces So that there's really just one page that people have to go to I would agree with that. Okay, I Forget whether I sent you what I ended up using but instead of that screen Yeah, I had a bullet point on here are the choices. I'm gonna have to make Yeah, you know, is it two schools or one school? Is it, you know, what year, you know, so I did Information-wise and then just put price tags on it because the other thing if you try to use this tool Which is why I had him do a few pictures for me The font is so small because that's so much information that Unless someone is sitting right here, you can't see most of it anyway. So think in terms of it, you know, yeah What's an easier? Optically, yeah This particular page the value of it for me is that it is a way of Going back and saying what is a reasonable estimation of a cost of UFSS facility and That we need to provide people to get an idea in the schools We do it because you give so many different options of schools that people sort of understand This is the cost that would attach to getting this With DPW Or library what gets confusing is is that People think about well we're talking about the Cadillac of whichever and What what if I put a lower number and because I don't want a Cadillac, but they don't Need to get some understanding of what it is. They're giving up by plugging in the lower number Yeah, and for the DPW and fire station these numbers are already reduced from You know what the projections were from the the high-level cost estimates I would if you keep this page I would make it static. Yeah, and Be very clear that this was a starting place Yeah, and then have only the place where you can plug and play be on the tool side And it also could be confusing for somebody who looks at the schools and says well obviously this one's the cheapest So let's go with this one, but they don't realize Well, you have to do two of these or one of these, right? So that was one of my design says you have to either pick column a or two of four and five You can't get away with yeah picking one 315 person school, right? Yes, if you go to the variable chart I just have another qualifying thing and that is if you go in say with DPW and You move the date earlier Okay Does that then do the adjusting on the fact that it doesn't cost as As much Because you built earlier it would only do it if you went to this page and changed it to Yeah, I'll figure it out But in general you what you have to do again That's why we might streamline this but you have to change it on this page first and that would change what the cost Estimate was and then you would take whatever that number was and pop it in here And there's no way to build that into I think we can yeah I think there's a way to so that it would all be in this it could just be a one-stop Right because I just I did what you did and I moved it to date to forward Well, then I had to start reducing either the cost of DPW and or the cost of the Annual amount that we would put forward and I kept wondering what did that really take into account? Yeah, I know what that by doing two years earlier. It cost less to build I'll try to combine them so it's this one click as opposed to multiple so I think we need to cut this to an end and If there are other thoughts that you have It's as best to email you what they what they are or questions that come up as you play with the tool Going forward, but I think I really appreciate the discussion in the presentation. So thank you. Yeah, thank you for the feedback and So let me just do one thing really quickly because I know that We've gone a little bit longer than we wanted and now one of our members needs to leave I said about percent for arts that I had been working on an outline and it is a work in progress. I don't really Know or where I get authorization or how I get authorization to move forward with it But what I thought of for the finance committee was a series of questions What is the cost of a half percent for each proposed new building? and With the current estimated cost of That amount what will be funded by borrowing? What is the additional taxation for the average or median property to fund the public art as required by the by-law? Third one what what is the amount of grants or other portions of revenue that may not allow this use? Fourth one was is there a logical minimum size? project in a budget Below which it does not make sense to apply this proposed by-law The fifth one is there a maximum amount that would be Applied for application of the by-law and sixth was Should the portion of the budget that is used for zero net energy be applied to this purpose? So those were the six that I had thought of what I was the reason I wanted to just give you a sense of what they were was that if you have other questions and can email them to me that I will assemble them and forward them along and We might be able to get some help from our staff to have Some answers to that available when we're discussing as opposed to just creating the discussion and will use And then you would send these also to the People that have brought brought it to us to make sure they come I Would and of course I want to make sure that they're noticed Which is why I did not want to have a real discussion the other question I had a general question on this that if The town meeting voted in past aversion that I understand never made it into the by-law Officially for a particular reason and we're looking at language. That is a subset of that where they've stripped off But they didn't change are we in Ineffects starting all over again, or are we trying to also honor what was done? I did that's just a process I don't understand if it it technically was passed as a by-law and then it ran into a funding issue at the state level So we never funding issues and approval it was approved an approval issue for a piece of it And they've stripped that piece out So We're we're amending a by-law that never went on the books because the whole by-law didn't go on the book So it was just I didn't understand Because the actual language that coming to us was the past language minus a piece They did some editing Actually because I've been involved with this and I'm now involved in the multiple levels of it I worked as a member of the select board with Mr.. Rowdy is a member of the is the chair of the Public Arts Commission on Trying to refine the version as did several other people and He did make some modifications, but I've been aware of this From the beginning who well before it got the town meeting so I've actually broken it down into issues for the that I think are more appropriate for the Community Resources Committee in the third section was general questions about the by-law as it is currently proposed by the Arts Commission because I Have some serious concerns about whether Doing it in the approach of amending off of the Previous by-laws most logical or whether the most logical approach would be To address the questions from the finance and the CRC side Have some discussion and then build the by-law from scratch. That was my question You know, are we building we're basically building a new or we am ending on old and that might mean that answer now I just thought that should be part of our discussion. Yeah, yeah, I mean my recommendation would be You know, there's a piece to this to build it from new and the pieces that there's actually a lot that's in the bylaw as it was passed by Town meeting that still makes sense. So it's not like you have to throw not use any of it but I You know, it's probably as far as I can go. So my question is Given that we have these capital projects and we need to have this by-law in place before we Get at I guess certain parts of these capital projects in terms of timetable After the two committees have done this and then we have to bring it to the council and have a final discussion What? My or timeframe is there what else has to happen or is this one of these things that takes two or three meetings or forums or what? I believe that the Lynn a little bit too, but Obviously this would be since it's bylaw we need to go to GL and GL has to have a very Through our review town council our town attorney rather has to have very thorough review of it I'm not sure that the version as they presented it to us Even solves all of the problems who were identified by the DOR attorney I have that question I think others might have that question who get into that level of the Process of it's Gonna take a Lot to get us through to the end But I think that we need to have a process we need to move the process along So that we can get the discussion But the finance issues really are what I as far as I'm concerned what they find we have to make a decision as to how this stacks up against other demands on town finances and if it turns out that it's a Not a huge financial factor. That's a lot easier to answer than it turned out to it was a big cost Yeah, Sonia Okay, so yeah, so when we passed the motion to refer we said it first goes to CRC and to Finance and basically the understanding is they would report out Either with a recommendation or that they need more time within 45 days Once we get to the point we think we have a workable bylaw and the recommendation from those two committees And it's a bunch of ifs in there It would then go to GLL and also to legal review it But I think we decided that you go to legal review even earlier because of the questions like Andy just raised I want to go back to something Kathy said and that is yes town meeting past this But it never and at that point because we were that form of government It had to be passed by the legislature and that's where it got stopped The reality is therefore it is not a bylaw on the books and even if it was I Didn't say we're gonna do this, but we could always repeal a bylaw and the second thing is that Now because we've changed our form of government. We don't have to take it to the legislature It's actually not the legislature to say it's the attorney general. Thank you the attorney the it went to the legislature because the of the funding mechanism and I'll just so because Sonya is here and it only takes a second is Establishing a maintenance fund within the budget still places funds into a special fund which is not appropriated on An annual basis by the council and therefore I was not certain we had that what they Proposed back even got us over the hurdle But I'm not looking for an answer to that question now. It is the It is the question in my third bucket of questions. I really did work at this So with that I think we're is there anything else we want to talk about now we know that the date of our Next meeting Is gonna be Tuesday the 20th it's on the 23rd, right? I'm sorry, you say the 25th and it's a 930 930 we had scheduled the meeting and That a major portion we need to Allocate to The financial consequences of the proposed Valley CDC requests for CPA funds So that motion to adjourn Makes that such a motion in the second All in favor So it's unanimous and we are adjourned and thank you very much Amherst media. We really appreciate your sticking with us and it is 1140