 Global Just Recovery Gathering Welcome everyone, my name is Mahir Ghaz, I'm based in Turkey. I'm also one of the resident climate science and policy wonks at 350. We do have a few of those. One aspect of closely following climate science and policy is often the anxiety that brings. It's not uncommon to see scientists, activists or even people only casually following the developments in those two spaces lose their grip and burn out and drop out of the movement. Today we're going to delve into these issues in our panel called Grounding Ourselves Science Updates and Our Mental Health. We have four illustrious panelists to help us navigate through this conversation. And I'd like to briefly present our panel members to you. This is in no particular order, by the way. Ko Barrett is the Deputy Assistant Administrator for Research at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NOAA. You might have also seen her name in relation with IPCC because in 2015 she became one of the first women elected to serve as a vice-chair of IPCC. George Marshall has in excess of 30 years of experience at all levels of communications and advocacy. He had senior positions in many international NGOs, active advisory roles for governments, businesses and international agencies. And his book from 2014 was called Don't Even Think About It Why Our Brains Are Wired to Ignore Climate Change. Louisa Neubauer is a German climate activist. She is one of the main organizers of the school strikes for the climate movement in Germany among her many engagements with multiple NGOs and many accomplishments. And Rene Lersmann is a pioneer and leader at the intersection of psychology, climate and environment. She translates psychology and social science best practices into tools that unleash the potential for creativity and courage. Rene is also regularly commissioned to teach, present and produce research and produce research for a range of institutions and agencies. So thank you so much for agreeing to be here today on this panel. We are going through difficult times. Our climate anxiety, which had been climbing for many years now has been compounded by the pandemic last year. We lost many of our usual coping mechanisms. And in this panel, we're going to be talking about what's the latest both in terms of science and just curry and how well and also how we can take all of that in stride and stay active in the climate struggle. So welcome once again. I do have a warm up question though before we jump in. It's a very short one and I can start by answering mine. It's a, is there a piece of music that boasters your courage? I'm a huge, you know, listener. Mine is is a not very well known Bob Dylan song. It's called let me die in my footsteps, which I like. George, do you have one yourself? I'm a huge fan of old jazz and I actually have a wind up record player which I when I get sick of my endless zoom calls I go and I wind it up and I put on a record and I have a set of Louis Armstrong is hot fives from 1928 and I put those on and that always gives me life. Good choice. And Renee. Gosh, that's George. I can, I think we just got a preview of you on Desert Island is so good warm up for that. I've been preparing for it for years. I can tell you've got it down. Gosh, you know, for me it's, I turned to Kirtan actually and I really love putting on like never ever a permal or some Krishna das when the going gets tough and it brings some wind into my sales. What are you cool? Oh boy, you're diving right into the differences between us in a very interesting way. All right, true confessions. I'm a big jam band band like Grateful Dead music and there's a lot of bands that kind of have followed in those same footsteps. And what I love about it is the true improvisational nature of the way that they approach either some, some jam in the middle of a song, but often the jam between songs and how as a participant and listening to that music, you're just taking along. Where are we going with this and where is it going to pick up? I just find that to be a fascinating way to engage with music as a listener. Perfect. And Louisa. And talking of differences in those moments, I make music, I guess. So that's when I get out my ukulele or my guitar or when I have a piano nearby, I play that. And that is so softened everything in me. And I start relaxing this really, you know, this thing here that you usually cramp so much. And I realize how much there was on my face and so on. And that's one thing. And for that, it's mostly classical music. And besides the couple of my friends in these, just to talk about some stereotypes here, a couple of my friends are playing in some indie pop rock bands. And I love listening to their music because I see their smiles when I want to listen to their songs. And sometimes I move them when they make music. And I remember what they were thinking about it. And I think it's a beautiful idea of people to produce something that is existing only in a moment, always, inherently. So yeah. Well put. Well put. All right. So this is your coping mechanism. We're done. And we can end the panel here. That's a joke. So, but let's start with Yuko because you are also holding that side of the things with your work, both in NOAA and IPCC. So what's your take on the role of science in just recovery? What are some, can it be considered one of the tools to, in our quest for just recovery, maybe? Yeah. Thanks for that question. I guess it makes sense for me to feel the question like that. As a scientist among the others on this panel. I mean, obviously science is has been a key to this whole issue of climate change. You know, over 30 years ago, climate scientists put the issue, you know, in the forefront of our minds. And over the years, we've advanced our understanding scientifically, you know, moving actually from questions like, is climate change happening to, you know, are humans causing this? Yes. And now to, what does this mean for me in my backyard? You know, in my neighborhood. And so, so science is obviously a big part of the picture. But recently, as I've been kind of thinking about it, especially in terms of what we were going to talk about today, I realized that it's just a piece of the puzzle. Right. It's an important piece and groups like the one that Luisa is working with and the youth movement have really taken up the issue of science and they lead with science, but they add something really, really important to the conversation. And that is kind of the human aspect of it. Sometimes the science can be very logical and kind of a thinking approach to the problem. But what I find with the youth movement and with other approaches to solving our climate challenges is that it brings us into the feeling world. It brings us into kind of, you know, needing to work in solidarity with one another. And I recently saw, I guess, I guess it was the secretary general of the UN talking about the response to COVID and what do we need? And he was saying, we need science and we need solidarity. And I thought we need that same exact approach in a climate sense. We need the science, but we also need to be working kind of empathetically together on solutions. We need to be putting the human face on this issue and realizing that we kind of all need to go together if we're going to get as far as we need to, you know, on solutions. So, you know, and it's an interesting thing to think about because, you know, often there's a little bit of a, we know the science, you know, kind of, there's a little bit of friction between folks who are not actively working hard on climate and those who are, and almost a sense sometime that, that if only you believed in the science, you would know how challenging, you know, how important it is to act. But in fact, if you look at the research, some of the people who are not actively working on climate solutions, it's not because they're not, that they're ignorant of the issue. In fact, some of them are very well versed in the climate science. It's more that people act on these issues from a value place, a place in the community. And they have their own interests that they bring to the table that they need addressed. And so, you know, I think it's important for us to be compassionate and understanding and to be working, not kind of in an antagonistic way, but how do we bring people together to work on parts of this that actually are solving the problem from the perspective that each sees it. And I think, you know, a focus on solidarity and really how we need to work together is kind of a part of that. So maybe that's where I'll stop for now. I hope we get to, you know, have some conversation on these types of topics. Thanks, Mahir. Speaking of science, what do you think about our tendency to ignore that science which you talked about in your book that came out in 2014? Why are we, why are our brains wired to ignore that information? And how can we change that? Or indeed in the seven years since your book came out, did your take on this evolve, maybe based on some of the latest happenings as Ko also mentioned? I really, I really liked what you were saying, Ko. And I'm drawing out these ideas of approaches which are based in the social and the cultural, as well as for kind of as the, you know, the data-driven science. I mean, we need the science, but I guess the point which I made in my book, and I think still holds very strongly, is that actually people's primary source of information is for social realm. And that you can say that they're scientific facts, but there's also social facts. And I think the primary reasons why climate, well, climate change is inherently hard to accept. I mean, we're actually very good at ignoring things as humans. We try and ignore things which are challenging to us, which creates a sense of internal conflict. What brings them into play is that they become more important for our social identity. So if something is part and parcel of who we are and the world around us and the society and the identity that we have when we take them on board, if they're presented to us as simply facts, we tend to ignore them. I mean, the classic case of this is as a lifelong on and off cigarette smoker and nicotine addict, thankfully not at the moment, is I know very well how it is possible to completely ignore all of the data about the dangers of smoking if you are in with a group of friends who smoke. And so we can do that very well with climate change. We actively seek to avoid it and it's challenging and uncomfortable to us. And I think it's important, therefore, to recognize these social facts, but there is a wider sense of belonging and identity which is what drives us. And therefore, one of the reasons why I think climate change feels so uncomfortable to us is that it has a negative or disturbing or a challenging social narrative. And similarly, the solutions for making it feel positive and something we can engage with lie in having a positive and involving sense of identity. I'll come back to that. But I think the first thing for us in terms of dealing with it is to recognize the mechanisms by which we distance ourselves from it. And it's interesting, Coa, I'd be very interested to hear what you think about this. My observation of professional scientists is that they often have a lot of internal conflicts and challenges of dealing with this emotionally and that many of the ways they behave are about distancing it. And I've sat through these long presentations by scientists where they present the most appalling and challenging material with its extraordinary degree of distancing where it's presented in these very dry abstract terms, data graphs without exploring what it feels like or what it's going to be or the impacts of it. I think professional science has a distance in culture. And also, I know very well that scientists, when you speak to them, are often very reluctant to talk about how they feel about it. That's a generalization I know that many often do. So I think we need to recognize that we have a tendency to distance. We have a tendency to say this isn't now, this isn't here, this is something in the future, this is something we don't need to think about. And we still see from the data, although many people accept climate change and we tend not to talk about it. Again, this is changing since I wrote my book, but it's still disturbing to me how there are large sections of a population who really don't talk about or engage with this issue from year to year. And of course, that means if you don't talk about it and it's not out there in the social sphere, it doesn't have a social identity, therefore it becomes, again, this frightening thing down the line, a bit like our own deaths, like something we do not think about down the line. And I guess the solution to all involve engaging with that and accepting it and bringing it back into the social sphere. So saying this is something we need to talk about. This is something that is important to me, sharing it with your friends and your family. I mean, I often say that a single most important climate action that anybody can have is to talk about it. Far more than, indeed, I think that your own emissions and your own behaviors is talk about it with the people around you, especially for people who are not themselves activists, family, friends, neighbors, and get out there and talk about it. And I guess as I kind of like put a whole lot of stuff out on the table, I guess I'd like to say and I'd like to invite the other people on the panel to share your own experiences of dealing with this internal conflict and pain that this issue causes us. My own way of dealing with it is actually through a sense of joy in the social aspects of my work. So I love the people I work with. I love my work. I feel empowered and excited through both my activism but also having a sense of purpose in my life. And that's what gives me the drive to keep going with something that could otherwise feel overwhelming. And again, it's that positive social narrative of coming together and feeling a sense of collective purpose is ultimately the only way of overcoming the sense of despair of the overwhelmingness of it. And again, I welcome you all to share your things on this but last thought I'd leave you with is this sense that we have a responsibility as change activists for how we present ourselves to the outside world. So I mean, we talk about poster children. Well, in a way we are the poster children. We are the face of this issue for most people. And so if we present a face of despair or despair or grief to the outside world, people are going to look at us and they're going to say, well, whatever it is, whether what they're saying is correct or not, I don't want to part of it. But if we can present a face to the world which is one of positivity and hope and drive and excitement, people say, yeah, I want to be with them. I want to be part of what they are doing. And I think ultimately it's that lesson of how we project ourselves to the outside world, I think is what makes all of the difference for building our movement. Rene, you have a new project actually which launched in 2020, in late 2020, if I remember correctly, which ties into what George was talking about. Do you mind speaking about that briefly? Sure. Thank you. Thanks for having me. There's so much to respond to and what's been shared already that build on what Co kicked us off with and what George has built on, which is just picking up on, we have a responsibility as change agents to be exceptionally mindful and intentional about how we show up and how we communicate. And I'm 100% in alignment with George that the single most powerful thing we can do is to talk, to engage. I would actually reframe it slightly less about how we communicate and message and talk to engagement, which is much more about the relationship and the dynamics and the interactivity that we as, no matter who you are, as a change agent, whether you're a scientist or a communicator or a student activist, a board member, CEO, that if you are actually seeking to be driving change that we now have a remit to level ourselves up and to skill ourselves up so that we can actually truly be effective at bringing people into this conversation. And I don't say that lightly because it's actually a very high, it's a high bar. It's almost like the ultimate human challenge, which is how do you, how do you navigate extraordinarily high stakes that raise our temperature in many ways? How do you navigate the high stakes and remain present and integrated and as a neuroscientist may say, regulated. How do we keep ourselves in regulation? Meaning that we're not taking our anxiety, our fear and just simply triggering and spreading that around so that we're unintentionally having an impact. It's like, I heard Rosemary Randall say years ago, the founder of Carbon Conversations, a pioneer in this work, she talked about the hot potato where our emotional relationship with these issues can be almost like a hot potato where it's like, I'm so, I'm having trouble tolerating what I'm seeing happening that I can't help but just sort of spread it around. And that makes total sense, but it actually undermines our efforts. And so the project that you mentioned, Project Inside Out, which is, you can find it at projectinsideout.net is a very new initiative that's an experiment funded by the KR Foundation to see if we can turn a lot of these best practices that Coe is referenced, that George has mentioned into tools and frameworks that anyone, especially activists, can use. And the essence of the Project Inside Out leveling up that I'm talking about is how do we be more guides and think of ourselves as guides versus trying to make people change and trying to motivate people. That's an old way. It's old. It's old way of thinking about it. I have to motivate someone. I have to get them to care. They don't care enough. How do I make them care? So I'm going to have to be either inspiring and hopeful or I'm going to have to be really, really clarify how real this is and break through the trance. And a guide is based on the work in the public health sector that George just referenced with, you know, whether it's smoking or diet or whatever where people have to make hard changes. How do clinicians navigate that and how do we take that and apply it to the climate context? That is, I'm with you. I'm a partner with you. I empathize. I get this is hard. I'm in this with you together. I'm feeling scared, you know, but I'm also feeling hopeful. How are you feeling? And what that means behaviorally is there's a lot more listening. There's a lot more asking questions there's a lot more. Would you like to know more, you know, as an expert or a scientist? Because the thing is, there's a lot of people working in the space know a lot. We have a lot of information that we're holding. And it's a lot to hold that. It's a lot. And so we want to figure out how do we skillfully share what we know rather than kind of, you know, not the opposite of mindful approach to that, which is to give a PowerPoint, to give a talk. It doesn't reference the emotional dimensions of this work. So it's really exciting right now. Very exciting moment we're in right now, which I just. I never thought I'd see this happening as quickly as it is. Is that we're starting to recognize that there's no separation between the content and the emotional. Tenor that that's that's also old, old. You know, that's like so 10, 15, 20 years ago. You know, I'm looking at all my books here on the neuroscience of learning and how we process information. You can't, you know, it's never neutral. It's always affectively charged. And so how do we just kind of accept that and then think about not, well, do we tell people how bad it is? Do we tell people how hard it is? Like how hard this is going to be. And that's not the right question. The right question is how do we do it? Not if we do it, but how do we do it? In a way that actually lowers our. Our make, deliver response that keeps us in that window of tolerance. And that has a lot to do with what both co and George have already mentioned, which is, you know, feeling like you're part of something bigger, feeling like you're not alone. But the key thing here to just end with is. It's really important that we normalize whatever experiences we may be having. And that we normalize it. It makes sense to feel anxious and it makes sense to feel scared. And that doesn't mean you're not hopeful or optimistic or, you know, that it's no longer about hope or despair. It's actually, you know what? We're in a human moment right now at existential change management moment. And that's my nickname for it. It's, it's changed at an existential level. And so, you know, it's like, of course it's going to be overwhelming. Like, okay, it's overwhelming. But it's also a huge opportunity for us as humans to level up and do things, you know, in ways we never thought possible before. So it's a moment of more skillful nuanced ways of working with ourselves and our own experience with our colleagues and our partners and with broader communities and groups. That was great. And I'm going to turn to Louisa and ask if you've had the opportunity to use some of those tools, some of those approaches and better underground, you have time to think that in depth and how do you deal also with the frustration of what George said, but people still not talking about it as much as they should maybe. Yeah, thank you so much. And I'm really moved by your wonderful words. And it's obviously talking now as a young, girish person. And it's obviously a very difficult situation to be there. I started, I started climate activism essentially because I looked at my life and I couldn't bear the idea that for my entire life I would have to deal with that catastrophe. And I just, and for me, you know, I'm 24. So, you know, just thinking like five years ahead for me, it seems like a lifetime almost. And so I found it so deeply, I found it unfair. I found it too much. And also, of course, you know, given that at some point you as a climate activist understand the complexity of the issue and also that it's basically, you know, happening everywhere at every single moment in time, whatever you do. You know, very, very easily puts you into the spot where nothing, you know, makes sense anymore. For us, the Fridays make sense because on Fridays we behave like we're in a crisis in a sense. But usually whatever we do, it doesn't add up. And that is a very, very difficult situation to be in. And I think, you know, I do believe that has something to do with age as well. That we think about the impossible much more. We think about it in the good ways, but we also think about it in the bad ways. And we don't have to, you know, we don't think about the 21st century in relation to the 20th century. It's just there and we have to make the most out of it. And we don't have any boundaries except that we see catastrophes everywhere. And I feel, and I think that's why many people turn to be climate activists that obviously the most helpful thing to do for me at least was to get active about this and don't take this as something that I don't matter. So I chose and what decided that I would make a difference and that I would make a difference, whether I wouldn't do anything or whether I would do something. And that's a very important part to understand because staying silent in this also makes a difference. And the more people do that, the easier it is to keep peeling and doing all this stuff that fuels a crisis. So, and that is, and that again brings you to the spot that you as a young person, you know, once you decide that you matter, that you make a difference, that you are important in this, that, you know, can be very freeing, but it can be incredibly scary as well. And we live in times where they tell you, you can be everything you want, you know, at least when you, when you grow up in somewhat of a privileged context. And they tell you that, you know, go to the world, see what is there, you know, they send young people out to travel after school and all those things. And no one tells you that you might matter in this, in this bigger human moment. And so we're not trained to think about it that way and not trained to think about us this way, that we matter in the broader context. And I feel we heard so much about, you know, getting around this and this are acknowledging this, acknowledging us in this, without being buried by the thoughts of, you know, what might happen and what might not happen. And I feel though, maybe just to boil it down to three aspects which I find really important in this. One is we talk so much about natural sciences and I feel, you know, we often say we have to talk about science and then, you know, you talked about science solidarity, which I find beautiful. I do believe as well though that it has to do with understanding that science isn't just natural science, it's social science as well. And we are being taught so much about every single aspect of the, you know, molecules somewhere and people don't teach us what this means for society, is how to stay human in this, how to stay together and strong and then solidarity in this. And that is often, you know, overseen and when we teach people about the public crisis, we teach them about stuff that for us matters the least. And because obviously it kind of starts with the human connection in this. So that is one thing I think which I am really, which I try to mainstream, which I try to make more famous in my work and try to understand more about how do we cope with this as societies. Secondly, I think the most important conversation about the climate crisis starts with us and our feelings. In Madrid at the climate conference last year, where we met as well, and Johan Rockström was giving a talk at the summer assembly and he said loads of things, really important things about all the incredible things that he finds out. And the one sentence that I remember from his talk was him saying, hello, I'm Johan Rockström, I'm a father and I'm scared. And then, you know, it's care, it's all out there. What do we even talk about? And I feel, you know, teaching ourselves and to talk about the climate crisis in that way, starting with an eye, starting with ourselves, what do we feel? What do we wish? What do we hope? What do we fear? Those things, finding those spaces, creating those spaces where these messages have, you know, can be and can be acknowledged in those things. I feel that as part of the climate movement, we're much too rare, but hugely important. And then I feel finally, this is maybe some lessons, some lessons I take away from the corona pandemic is given that we have brought the planet to the state it is. Every moment in history, every moment in the future will be some sort of, you know, crisis moment. So who we are as humans is who we are in a crisis and who we are, what we do, how we behave in a crisis, very much shaped, who we are as humans. So I feel this is, understanding this, acknowledging this, and I try to think about this in the corona context as well. You know, what do I do? What, who am I in this pandemic? And it's not, you know, some nice mind game to play, but it's an extension question about, you know, us as humanity in a crisis. And we always said it would be hard. And, you know, two years ago, when I see my speeches now, I would always tell the people like, oh, it's going to be hard and it's going to be tough. I would have never thought that we get a tiny virus to pass on an infectious disease. And that the hardship that I was talking about would at some point be a pandemic. I couldn't imagine that. And I now feel how foolish it was to talk about this hardship in that kind of easy way. And now we learn differently. And I feel, you know, understanding ourselves as, or understanding our humanity or human side as who we are in a crisis is, I feel that's a really helpful mechanism to apply. Well, that was deep. And also as an activist touched me. Could I, sorry, could I just add one more thing? Because I feel that is one thing that the three of you mentioned. And I feel that is, for me, it defines all of my work is the idea that maybe it just doesn't work out. Maybe, maybe we will just mess up hugely and things will just be bad. What life, what time will we look back at? And I want to look back at a time where we fought for everything we had and everything we had lost already and everything we didn't want to lose in solidarity and love and kindness and, you know, being there for each other. And, you know, understanding or acknowledging that maybe it just doesn't work out. I feel that allows us and ideally drives us to a point that how we fight becomes as important as that we fight. Can I just respond a little bit? I just value your perspective so much. And I thought, I think you've kind of put a nice fine point on so many of the things that we've started to talk about here. I just wanted to pick up on your point about the challenge and the opportunity that the coronavirus is kind of putting in front of us, right? I mean, there's so many people who have been devastated by this and just the way the entire globe has had to change our way of being, our way of interacting with one another. I mean, it's just so fundamentally disruptive. But it's also, I'm finding, and I don't have small children running around my house. So I don't bear that stress and my job continues so I don't also have that financial stress that so many carry. But I also, for the first time in 30 years, have not gotten on an airplane in a year. And I work on climate. I've spent my entire life on climate. And the year before this, I flew over 100,000 miles. And that's provided a respite from my greenhouse gas, my carbon footprint for sure. But it's also provided a respite for me in terms of grounding myself, which is for the message we were kind of going to talk about here, grounding myself in a different way in the work. And I found that because we're all working remotely and we're all interacting through Zoom calls, et cetera, I found, especially with the colleagues who I interact with very frequently, that the line between our work lives and our home lives is completely blurry. I love when someone's dog jumps on their lap in the middle of a meeting. I love when a toddler walks in and all of a sudden, my colleagues are not just people I work with on issues. They are human beings who I care about. And the blurring of those lines is so helpful to the way that we come together to work on solutions. So I kind of find that it's added to the humanity of working together. And I think, obviously, we've had a reduction of around 7% of our greenhouse gas emissions during this time. This is not the way we would choose to solve the problem. We would go about it in a more purposeful way. But I think it does open up the ability for us to kind of imagine or reimagine a just future because we don't have to go back to working in the same old way. Now, we're considering it as just a part of our working arrangements, more remote work, more work-life balance. In the context of IPCC, when we have our virtual meetings, we are challenged because not everyone has the same level of technological ability in their countries. Developing countries are often really challenged. And we have to deal with that. But we also get to include many more people. It's not just the two people who come to the IPCC meeting. We can have many more people included in the conversation, which is a hugely great thing. So I just want to say there are opportunities that this presents to us that I hope we grab on to as we reimagine our future. Go ahead, George. Well, I think it's I'm going to quickly follow up on a few points if I can, but I'm sure it's going to be a good lead-in for you, René. I know that I'm here. I know that you were interested in asking about 1.5 degrees. And following up on all of us, I wanted to say this thing about it's okay to feel scared. You said this, René. And, Louise, you were talking about this, too. I think I just wanted to say, I think there's a lot of wider evidence to say that the first step towards overcoming or certainly coping with any kind of emotional challenges is to recognize it and to have it there and to look it firmly in the face and to say, this is hard. This is scary. This is difficult. Maybe we have lost a lot and this is hard and this is how I feel about it. But together we can form a community of care. Together we can look after each other. I think from what you're saying, Co, that's also something coming strongly through COVID. I think COVID has produced a step change in public attitudes towards collective solidarity and collective grief, which I think is very, very positive for this. So I wanted to put that out there and say that part of the communications, the communication I have, I know communications engagement, but I have intuitively just years is the very positive, bright side of saying, hey, it's all going to be fine because we're smart and we have immense capacity for enterprise and for initiative and technology. And I don't think that works. And we know it doesn't work because within my organization, Clive and Outreach, we've gone out and done a lot of testing with very different groups and we know that message doesn't work. What works is to say, look, this is hard. This is painful. This is going to be difficult, but together we can do it. And just to leave you with a thought that the reason we know about works is because we've tried out in many different places and we have tried and tested message in focus groups around this in very, very different contexts. We've tried it across Northern India. We've done projects across North Africa. I helped to lead a project in Alberta in Canada, probably one of the most divided places on Earth and in every single place this messaging worked and it initiated a conversation between people about how they could work together about how it's hard, about how it's painful, but how we could get through. So I think that's the kind of key to the answer. So thank you, George, for that response. Now, let's do a... We are actually nearing the end of our panel, believe it or not. So let's do a quick lightning round maybe. I'll ask and feel free to jump in at any point during this round. So one thing that frustrates me and based on what you have been saying, it's okay to feel scared, but also we have a responsibility in terms of how we give our messages in order to not, you know, paralyze ourselves or others in the movement, so on and so forth. One thing that frustrates me is the the whole discussion around 1.5 and whether that's possible, that's not possible, whether we're already at it or over it and what it means for us. And why are we so obsessed with that decimal and can't we just focus on doing the best we can and ensuring that we have as much of a just recovery as we can in whatever we end up with, be it 1.5, 1.61 or whatever? Why that obsession with that decimal? There's a lot to say. I would just point out again that I'm representing the psychological lens. We all got our lenses. So through the psychological lens, we want to just keep in mind what works, what we already know works with human beings and how we process information and how we avoid information and what we get fixated on. And so we want to be thoughtful about what are we getting attached to and fixated on that maybe helps us avoid the more messy, complicated, nuanced, ambiguous, uncertain aspects of reality. So when we see an attachment to that, that should be a clue that hopefully makes us curious. Like what is actually going on here? Why are we so fixated on this? And usually what we'll find is that we're wanting to hold on to something. We're wanting to hold on to something that gives us more sense of stability and certainty and that we all know in this conversation that's kind of elusive, right? So to me, the reframe is to bring curiosity and compassion and empathy to, wow, this is, again, keep going back every single day. Like, wow, this is really intense. And look at us. Look at how we're trying to get a handle on what's happening. How do we shift that into a conversation and into an inquiry that moves us in the direction that I feel Louisa really articulated so eloquently and so beautifully, which actually takes us to a whole different altitude and how we're relating with these issues. One thing I'll just say about 1.5 is, the genesis for 1.5 is that some of the most vulnerable countries in the world were saying in the climate negotiations, two degrees is not low enough for us. We're already at threat. So we've got to be striving for 1.5. When you start talking about 1.5 degrees of warming, you are talking very soon. And all of a sudden this distant problem is right in your lap. And that's powerful. And I think that is potentially the most powerful thing about taking a look at the kind of scientific piece of what goes into 1.5. It is now. It was an absolute honor and a pleasure for me to be with these illustrious panelists here. And it has been an interesting inspiring conversation. I hope it's useful to everyone as well. And I wish everyone health and courage for the coming times. And love to everyone at the Global Just Recovery Gathering and everyone watching. Thank you. Global Just Recovery Gathering.