 So welcome and thank you to all of you for joining us for another episode of The Nonprofit Show. Today we have John Bain joining us. John is the Director of Platform Technology with Generate Impact and we're gonna dive in deep about tech goals. But before we do that, we of course want to acknowledge who we are if you haven't quite met us yet. Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, the Nonprofit Nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And we are, gosh, come in upwards to our 400th episode here. And we couldn't do this without our generous presenting sponsors. So thank you to our sponsors. These companies exist to help you do more good. And yes, I'm pointing, I know that's bad etiquette, but it's really great because these companies exist to help you fulfill your mission in your community. So if you have not checked them out, please make sure that you do that. And one of our sponsors Generate Impact is here today as a guest on the show. Again, John Bain joins us, Director of Platform Technology with Generate Impact. And we are so thrilled to have the support of Generate Impact and also to have you on today. So welcome John and thanks for joining us. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Okay, we're amazed by your title first off. I mean, we think you're already a cool guy because you've got a Fender guitar behind you, which we immediately spotted. I just have to witness. But Director of Platform Technology, that sounds pretty heady. And before we get into all these questions we have for you, can you share with us what that actually means? Sure, absolutely. So platform technology in the context of our definition is really capitalizing on either your existing investment or on an investment that you're potentially about to make as a nonprofit organization or an organization that is just doing some work to put some benevolence and go back into the world. We're really trying to help you surface and utilize the tools to the best of their ability and make sure that they're a good fit for you, that they're enabling your mission. And generally we focus on things that already exist for our clients, products that are off the shelf. We do our best to be technology agnostic so we're not beholden to any organization or any particular technology. We're looking at what fits for you and there are a lot of good fits in platforms like Google Workspace or Microsoft 365 or Zoom or any of these others that already exist. So a little less on the custom development side and a little more on the, how do we make the most out of what's already there? You know, I'm glad you said that because I think one of the things, and Jared and I since the get go, we've had so many tech experts that have come on and talked with us, who've pitched us to be on the show. And a lot of times we hear this concept of like, get rid of everything and start all over. And it's such a frustrating, expensive, I would dare say frightening thing because you're like literally scraping it and so it's really cool to hear you kind of say, no, let's figure out what you have and work through it. Well, most of the time you don't wind up with a technology by accident, you normally have that for a reason. So let's focus on, let's take the good aspects of what's there and capitalize on those and maximize those. And then the things that are a little less desirable, well, we can change that, that becomes our goals. I love it. So let's get into that and ask you what our technology goals, I mean, we were talking before we went live, the nonprofit sector man, we got goals down. We set goals, it seems like for everything, but Jared, have you ever worked with an organization that had technology goals? You know, I haven't, but the irony of this truly is that when I do my strategic planning process with clients admin, I help them assess their admin and that includes their technology. So I am eager to learn more of how we really drill down to identify our tech goals based off the size of the organization where they are and where they want to go, right? Cause it's not just for today. So I think it's wonderful and I would love to know, John, like how do we even identify technology goals where do we start? Sure. So goals are indicators of progress more than they are anything else. If you set a goal to raise X amount of dollars for your organization or your cause, when you hit X amount of dollars, do you stop fundraising? No way. No, of course not. You set a new goal and you keep moving. So they become markers or indicators that you're making progress, that you're moving in the direction that you want ahead. If you think about goals and other areas of your life, generally, if you have an employer or have been employed at some point, somebody has assigned a goal to you or they've told you about the organizational goals or whatever those things are. And they're always indicators. And technology is not really that different. The biggest difference is that technology goals need to enable your organizational goals and your people goals and your growth. They need to enable but not define. They have to enable your mission. And that's what the goal of your technology is. How does this technology, how does this whatever we're doing make me able to do my mission better? How does it make me better able to support the people that are here helping me get to where I need to go? How do I help my folks grow in this world using this technology? How does it help me achieve those goals? And the other thing that I think you have to think about when you consider technology goals is they gotta be flexible. Just like you don't stop when you reach a goal, the goal changes and you move to the next one, your technology goals are the same way. They're not going to stop. Technology doesn't quit changing because you found the right fit for your organization, right? Whoever this, you know, there's always a next version of the application that you're using that's great for you. Somebody, by the time that you touch any piece of software, any service, anything, somebody behind the scenes is already working on the next version by the time that you get your hands on the newest release. That is so true. And I know it from my phone, that's for sure. Zoom, the same thing, right? It feels like every time we sign off of a conference, there's a new version, there's a new update. And then, you know, as we had talked about, during the pandemic, there's been so much reliability on technology, whether we were prepared for it or not. And I'm curious, John, if you would be willing to share with us, you know, how we can continue to, I don't know, assess our tech goals because there's always new versions coming up. Right. And that speaks to something that we'll address a little more in depth later on too. And that's the idea of life cycle management. We do, your technology is always changing. The business, the organization from a business perspective always has to change too, no matter what it is that you're doing, whether it's fundraising or looking for volunteers or teaching children how to read, you know, whatever it is that you're doing, you always have to adapt to the climate. And the technology that you have also has to adapt to your climate, not you to its climate. So you want to constantly ask, is this still doing what I needed to do and is that what we as an organization need to be doing to move towards our organizational goals too? So if you frame it through the lens of, is this technology helping me get to the end goal of our organization or fulfill our mission? That's where you begin that question. You know, and I appreciate that you said from the get go, be aware that this is changing. And because of the frustration aspect, I think for a lot of people that are like, we thought this would solve everything. We thought this would be, you know, one and done. And it's, if you can step back and say, no, this is going to be evolutionary in a good way, then I think it kind of changes some of that frustration. Now I want to ask you a little bit about the human first approach because we're talking about technology and then all of a sudden you're like, throw in this piece of the recipe and it's like, human. Okay, how do we get to these, how do we align these things? Right. So we start with people, we end with tech. And I think a phrase that a colleague of mine likes to use a lot is technology last. And that's our organizational mode of is technology last. And it sounds funny when you hear that coming from a technology company, but it sort of goes back to what I said earlier. If the technology isn't enabling the people behind it, if the technology isn't helping bolster what they're doing, then it's not doing its job. It's meant to enable. That's how it's supposed to fulfill our lives. We can't ask Microsoft to stop releasing updates to their applications, but we can anticipate and know that they're going to be updates and respond accordingly. So we can control our own behavior. We can't control everybody else's. Okay, that's pretty easy to get your head around. And what I mean by technology is meant to enable is you shouldn't be beholden to your tech. You shouldn't have to bend over backwards to be able to send a document to be signed because the technology that you have requires that. Well, it's time to ask at that point, is this the right tech for us? And sometimes the answer isn't technical. I have yet to get anybody to admit that they want to show up to work and do a bad job. I asked that question a lot. Would you like to show up to work and do a terrible job? Well, no, nobody ever says yes to that. And I don't think that generally people want to do that. I think most people that work in this area, they care. They do this because they care. I also haven't met anybody that has told me that they're into non-profit service because it's a huge income generator, right? So, and at the end of the day, most people really don't even care about what it is that they have to use to get their job done. They'll use the laptop that you give them. If it's not working, they'll start to do what internally we refer to as shadow IT where we'll start bringing in their own solutions to get the job done because people are creative. And when people care and they're smart and they're creative, they solve problems. We're human beings. That's what we're good at. And so they're going to do that for you too. So the idea is that we understand the people and we understand their processes and their needs and then we find technology that meets those needs and meets them where they are. And we understand too that the solution that we propose today isn't the end all be all solution for the rest of the year, the rest of the organization's lifetime. We're going to revisit it and we're gonna build that into the process too. So we like to do the design thinking, design workshop style of engagements where we talk to the staff that use these things. When I do discoveries, I always talk to managers and executives and stakeholders but I also talk to the people that have to use this thing day to day because I too have been on both sides of that. And I know what having technology that's frustrating and trying to get your work done is like. So we consider that because there's always people on the other end of this tech, there's always somebody on the other end of that email or that phone call and they have lives and they have good days and bad days and we don't need to add to their frustrations. I love that you brought up the design thinking. That's when I was clapping because that is such a, I love the process of design thinking and really having that ability to be in that incubator of all options are viable at this point, all options are viable. Let's really consider what that might be. I believe we even talked about before really, in this great resignation, technology is even coming up in the interview process or in the negotiation process talking about, okay, here's my job, here's the responsibilities and what systems are currently in place to support me so that I don't show up and do a bad job every day. Have you seen that more and more? Have you seen that question maybe coming up more and more during this great resignation time? Yeah, definitely. There's a lot more consideration given to that kind of thing and it's interesting. One of the questions that people are starting to ask is what training opportunities do you provide and what technology do you support remote work? Of course, it's a big question, big surprise there, right? And a lot of times the follow-on to that question is, okay, well, do you support full-time remote work or does it require some in and out of the office? Are you gonna provide equipment to me or do I have to provide the equipment? And coming from a background in IT security as well, I also am always thinking about, okay, do I really want that person bringing their own equipment into the organization? That's a question that you have to ask organizationally. So, yes, laptops cost money, yes, hardware cost money, but you know what? Breaches cost a lot more and employee dissatisfaction costs a whole lot more too. I love that you said that and I think we need to have you back and have another really significant discussion around that issue. But Jared and I, every Friday we do the ask and answer show and it's really an interesting thing. And we've had questions, a lot of questions about this issue, you know. My technology is not working. So I wanna buy my own laptop, but how do I get that reimbursed or should I? We get that now. And I think it's exactly for what you said, it's because folks are having to work from home, they're having to use their technology. They can't get up and go ask a question or talk to somebody at the water cooler. They have to engage with that technology. And if they can't even make that work or function, productivity and frustration just goes out the roof. Yeah. And even more than the technical side of it, one of the biggest challenges in the pandemic and in the subsequent resignation is that loss of connection with your coworkers. And that's one of the hardest things for technology to accommodate. Technology can't make connections for you as no matter how much networking or how great your Wi-Fi is, you still have to make human connections with people and doing that over video calls and phone calls, especially when you've never actually met people in person, so challenging. So you have to be really creative in how you implement these technologies and how you continue to use them. And it's not enough to just pick something that works anymore. Yeah. Well, talk to us about that adoption. So once you pick something, right? Now, how do we take that into adoption implementation? What does that look like? Sure. So I just said that once we select a technology, if somebody's working remote, if they're in the office, it doesn't even matter that the truth is, and this is where we go back to that design thinking idea too, is that if you don't get input from the people that use this technology, if you don't get buy-in and investment from those people, it is never going to succeed. And it doesn't matter how much it costs or how well it's implemented without buy-in from the people using it, it's never going to work. You can't train people to care, but you can incentivize them. And the way that you incentivize them is you bring them into the decision. You have them, you let them have a voice. You let their input be heard. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're always going to go with whatever their choice is, but letting them know that they've been heard and that you are thinking about their concerns and the way that they do their work really goes a long way with people. And it also, the adoption piece is actually what kicks off the entire process. When I talk about lifecycle, lifecycle actually begins and ends with adoption because we want to start thinking about the communications that we're going to have with people, the engagements that we're going to have with people all throughout the deployment of this technology, whether it's revamping something we already have or implementing something new. We always want to be thinking about what does it mean to this audience and what kind of different audiences do we have? And how do we make sure that we're addressing their concerns and their needs? And the answer to that is, well, you have to ask them because you can't just assume you already know what people's interests, needs, or challenges are. So that's the reason that I like to talk to people that actually do the work in addition to the managers and the stakeholders and whoever is running the project. Because those are the people that are on the ground touching that stuff every day. And they usually have some better insight as to what frustrates them. Yeah. While that's true, I want to push back a little bit and ask a different question. And that is that you only know what you know. So let's say you're super educated in social work and you know how to deal with your clients and you know how to engage and work through these problems. But maybe you don't know you're not super savvy or confident with the technology. How and why do you get that voice in and make that part of the discussion? So that's a huge piece of adoption. And that's a huge part of why implementations fail is because you don't, if I as a technical implementer don't account for the fact that there are people that don't understand that technology or that don't have exposure to it. Or if I rely on my own life experiences then it's doomed to failure. I have to understand that there are people out there that have different experiences, different level of expertise than I do and that other people in the organization have. It's an industry term for it is the curse of knowledge. You're right. You don't know, you don't know. That's usually when you start to figure things out is when you realize there's a lot you still don't know no matter how deep your expertise might go. So one of the biggest challenges that I've run into through all of this is remembering that there are other people with completely different experiences out there that we need to speak to as well. So we have to engage with them and we have to talk to them. And sometimes when you're talking about the people that are your constituents or they're outside of your organization that can be a little more challenging and you have to get creative and do something beyond just taking a survey out there. But you find ways to get those answers. Like I said, we're human beings. We're good at solving problems. We're good at coming up with creative solutions and a lot of people and especially a lot of nonprofits wind up with technology challenges because they have really creative people that solve immediate problems. And those immediate solutions solve what's in front of us but they don't account for what's coming down the road. So I try to help them understand what might be coming down the road and when we should be taking another look at these solutions. And just like your organization adapts to a changing climate such as the pandemic or if your staff changes, you hire new staff. If something breaks, you replace it. Well, your technology has to be the same way. You have to make sure it's still meeting the need of whatever your need might be. Sorry, Julia, I think that is fascinating. And I also know depending on the size of an organization nonprofits are really creative with using a workforce of volunteers, right? And so I remember and in fact, I know several clients that have really engaged, I'm gonna say more of the required workforce as volunteers that have really been resistant towards technology. Even something as simple as like, the Google office suite is really difficult for some individuals. But then I also know that there's been organizations that have utilized volunteers also in some of the data management or the volunteer management. And so there's different skill sets and different that curse of knowledge, I guess, is really at different levels within the organization. But I like how you talk about, and I call it or I have been calling it now, where are we going and growing, right? Like this is where we are now, but where is it that we're going and how are we growing towards that way? Because that might mean that these volunteers that were previously using the systems are no longer accessing the systems. Right, and we try to start with the people and the processes more than we do anything else because you should be able to do this work, at least in theory without the technology in place. That's how you make sure that the tech is supporting you and enabling you and not just acting as something else that you have to do where it's another box that has to be ticked. You should be able to essentially perform whatever this function is without any of that stuff, but you got to be able to do it with pencil and paper first. And once we've gotten to that point and we understand that usually surfaces the real challenges that people have. And this sort of goes back to most of the time, the challenges aren't even technical challenges. They're process or communication or people challenges first. And that's what we try to highlight and resolve. And then we bring the technology and so that's why it becomes technology lasting people first. Wow. I love it. I love it. It's really hard to believe because our time is almost up. One thing I've been thinking about as we've been chatting here today, and I know this is like a big question, but is there like a general rule that says that technology is gonna change every so often so be prepared with those goals to know that if you make an investment in XYZ software, 12 months, 18 months, three weeks, I don't know. I think it's dangerous, Julia. Seriously. I mean, what does that look like? So you can kind of put that into your whole planning module. Yeah. So depending on the scope of the suite of tools that you have to use, that answer can change. I think if you're gonna have sort of a generalization, it's that you just need to be aware that it has to be done. You'll find the right cadence for your organization. You'll find the right cadence for you personally or your group of folks, but it's hard for me to prescribe a value to that. It depends on what you're using, how often you use it, et cetera. You'll know when the time comes because you'll start to ask those questions. As soon as it starts to become, this is how we've always done it or why do I wanna change? Because it's working. That's your first indicator. That's the first red flag. Interesting. Yeah. And I think just building in, I know that within the first year, I have to look at the system again. How often do you look at your financials? It varies. There isn't a scripted answer to that. It's you feel it and you know it. You just have to stop ignoring it. And your people, if you have staff or coworkers that you work with, oftentimes they'll tell you too, even if they don't tell you directly. They'll start to say, every time I go to do X, Y, Z, this happens. Okay, that's when your ears should perk up and go, okay, I think we might have something going on here that we need to look at. We need to think about this. I'm loving it. I'm curious, is there like on average, an individual person or organization uses, fill-in-the-blank kind of like technology systems? I'm thinking platform systems. I don't know. Do you have, and does, you know, a generic impact have an idea of how many systems or technology systems are used by an individual daily? Yeah, I think that on average, even the smallest organizations that we work with have at least four or five different suites of tools that they have to work with. And usually in a smaller organization, you'll find more tools that, you'll find a tool that does more things. So you might get a Microsoft 365 that has a whole platform behind it and does all kinds of things. That's a whole box full of tools that we can even begin to unpack, but we only use the office side of it and maybe teams. Well, really you're actually probably using about seven or eight different tools that you don't realize that you're using. A lot of folks have a CRM of some sort. So, you know, any of those, that they always come with a level of complexity. Anytime you're dealing with a group of people that you have to manage contacts and databases and those sorts of things, there's at least three to five suites of software that you end up using. And usually there's some sort of a platform like a Google Workspace or Microsoft and there's a CRM of some sort. And they all have different logins and passwords and that's a whole nother episode. That's another episode. They do. And I could really talk about that for a long time, but to that I will say there are a number of platforms that do integrations and the biggest thing that you can do for any of them to give yourself a leg up is if they offer multi-factor authentication, turn it on. Okay, great advice. Great advice. Well, this has been a great way to start our week. John Bain, Director of Platform Technology with Generate Impact. We're thrilled that you would join us. And I have to admit, I'm thrilled that you could talk to us. Yeah, absolutely. It was my pleasure. It was great. Thank you for inviting me on. It's been absolutely wonderful to talk to you and have the opportunity to speak to this stuff. It's good to get somebody to listen. I think from today's episode, we've already like, you know, parsed out at least three to four, maybe even five new topics that we could definitely dive deeper into. So thank you for sharing your time and we are so grateful. Julia Patrick, thanks for being here with me and starting out our Monday. We always celebrate Friday, but I think we should also celebrate the start of a week too. I'm Jarrett Ransom, the nonprofit nerd. We also wanna say thank you, thank you, thank you to our presenting sponsors, including our guests today, Generate Impact. So thank you to each and every one of you for continuing these conversations. You know, we thought we would run out of topics. We thought we would run out of episodes and we just continue to navigate right alongside with all of our nonprofit friends and leaders across the globe. So thank you to our sponsors for allowing these conversations to happen. Absolutely, and as we end every episode, we want to remind you, and we wanna remind ourselves, I think, to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Hey, John, you got me sparked up for the day. Thank you.