 Hi, good afternoon. It's 101 p.m. Eastern. Welcome to Vision, a show about the trends, ideas, and disruptions changing the face of our democracy. The moment of reckoning that has engulfed America since the killing of George Floyd on top of the continuing fight against COVID-19 has created specific demands for our democracy. Demands about how to ensure justice and equity for all. Demands about how to keep a nation safe and healthy without crippling opportunity society. But the moment is also raising general questions about what it is that makes our democracy work. We are seeing at once the common purpose and common cause that has propelled the American experiment to endure and in the eyes of many improve over time, but we are also seeing deep dissatisfaction and even despair about the state of our democracy and its ability to deliver on its lofty promises. For the past two years, well before the crises of the moment, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences has been convening a commission on these very questions. The academy founded in 1780 is the nation's oldest membership society dedicated to knowledge. And the commission of which I was honored to be a member was focused on the practice of citizenship in our democracy, exploring how to best respond to the weaknesses and vulnerabilities in our political and civic life, and how to enable more Americans to participate as effective citizens in a 21st century diverse democracy. And even though I was a commission member, all of my recommendations were appropriately rejected. So there's no conflict in this conversation we're about to have. And it's a critical conversation at a time when we are challenged to rise to what it really means to be an effective citizen in this democracy. I'm delighted to be joined by Steven behinds whose president and CEO of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and co-chair of the American Academy commission on the practice of democratic citizenship. And also Antonia Hernandez who serves as president and chief executive officer of the California Community Foundation, who is also a commissioner. So we've got a lot to discuss. We might go a little bit long today. And without further ado, therefore, I'd love to welcome Steven and Antonia. Steven, hi. Hey, Sam. Thanks for having us. Thank you for coming. And Antonia hopefully is, here she is. Excellent. You're still on mute. But thank you. Thank you both for joining. I'd like to start, Steven, with you and really ask sort of the basics. Why was this commission convened? What was the purpose? Well, thanks to the audience for joining us for this discussion. So the idea for the commission really began in 2017. So it was well before the crises of this moment. But it was with a sense that our democracy was in crisis, that our representative democracy, for many Americans, is neither very representative nor truly democratic and that it just isn't functioning, that the democracy is rigged, that their voice and their vote don't matter, and that the systems of governance are breaking down because it's not reaching them and changing their lives. So the academy, which was founded, as you said, in 1780, to be of service to the nation in times of challenge, decided this was a topic that really needed to be addressed and to offer a bold plan for how we could essentially reinvent American democracy for the challenges of this sector. So Antonia, when you heard this pitch and you were asked to join the commission, what was going through your mind? What were some of the signal issues, challenges in American democracy that were top of mind for you? Well, my background is that I'm a civil rights lawyer. And for 18 years, I headed the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund. I also worked in the Senate. And so the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1963, all those are issues that I care deeply about. And being in California, one of the most diverse places in the country, I knew that our democracy needed to be reimagined. The percentage of people voting, you know, on voting rights, you know, sort of all of the hindrances that are being put before people that we see in preventing them from vote. So to me, it was like, this is perfect. We need to reimagine our democracy, bring it to the 21st century and really engage the next generation. So one of the things that really struck me in the process of this was one that the commission composition was incredibly diverse, you know, people from all walks of life, all sectors ideologically diverse. And then also there was this sort of incredible process of going out to communities across the country to ask people just very basic, not would you do this with our voting system or that, but really basic questions about what animates their attachment to our democracy, their concern about our democracy. And I sort of say all that to say, you know, having had a front row seat, there really was this whole range of things that were considered from democratic kind of habits and conventions to really concrete policy recommendations. You know, so I'd love to maybe first hear from you, Steven, both about kind of what the major areas of recommendation are, but how you narrowed, how you thought about that task of narrowing something that had emotional vectors, habit vectors, cultural vectors down to a really concrete set of recommendations. Yeah, well, it was, as you know, a complicated process because from the very beginning, we were dedicated to having the Commission represent the extraordinary diversity of this country in every respect, as you said. And we worked hard to kind of build the culture of the Commission itself, a culture of participation and openness and honesty and curiosity. And we did all the traditional things that National Commissions do. We, you know, assembled a pile of data and analyzed it. We commissioned white papers. We studied all the literature in the field. We interviewed experts and we held conferences and seminars. And all of that was useful, useful, but frankly, the most important thing we did was listening to Americans. And as you said, and we did it in over in around 50 communities across the country, really diverse set of voices, you know, everything from a group of Somali women refugees in Minneapolis to conservative activists in Jackson, Mississippi, to a whole bunch of leaders in Los Angeles that Antonio brought together to first year cadets at the US Naval Academy. I mean, we tried to listen to all kinds of voices and their voices are embedded in every page of this report. They were the decisive input to our work. And that helped us both develop a framework and then a set of specific recommendations and helped us achieve consensus across this very broad and diverse group of the members of the Commission. And what, just quickly, I'm going to ask you a bit about how you've reacted to the recommendations, but what are the kind of three major buckets of or three major buckets of recommendations? You want me to comment on that? Yeah, so yes, it's a it's a really important point because I think this is one of the things that makes this report distinctive from other democracy reform proposals and reports. We came quickly to understand that while the institutions and processes of democracy, government institutions voting, all of those things that we think of as being kind of the core of democracy, they're essential and they need to function well, they need to be representative, they need to be inclusive, and they need to be responsive to the needs and aspirations of the citizens. But the institutions alone are not enough. They rest on a political culture in our society and on the importance of civil society organizations, which is where citizens self organize with each other to do things for the common good. And so our report offers recommendations in all three of those spheres because we believe very deeply that without vibrancy in all three, the institutions, the culture, and civil society, democracy will not be as powerful and as effective as it needs to be. And Antonio, what, you know, having been through the process and I know firsthand, you are active advocate for some of the recommendations, a trusted skeptic on other ones. What are some of the recommendations that really have jumped out to you as being important that you've been sharing with other people as things to pay attention to coming out of this process? Well, you know, it's interesting because one of the reactions, the first initial reaction is this is another commission, it's a bunch of the leaders, you know, they don't really get a sense of it. And the recommendations really aren't cutting edge. And so to me, first of all, is yes, they are. And a couple of them that I start that are my favorites. Okay, one being a lawyer, you know, the fact that we're recommending that a term of the Supreme Court, you know, be 18 years, and they go, you're kidding. I said, and then they talk about, you know, life appointment, and I explain all that stuff, but go really, and I said, and we're recommending to expand the House of Representatives by 50 goes, oh, really, you're kidding. And so I go on and I think, you know, the reaction that I get is that these are serious. Skeptical, some of them say, well, you're going to need a constitutional amendment. And I said, not really, maybe one, you know, maybe one, but the rest of them are in the hands of the people and the legislature, the governance structures. I said, we were very practical about that. And, you know, talking about consensus and, you know, being very skeptical, it's true. Do I adore and believe in all of the recommendations? No. Some of my favorite, but for the good is the consensus. And this is what we as Americans have to do. It's the give and take of, you know, the whole in order for us to see ourselves in the middle. And so, but I'm very excited. And, you know, the other thing, some simple stuff, like recommending that national elections, presidential elections be on Veterans Day, common sense, you know, make it is an expectation that this is the day everybody's going to vote in honoring of our veterans, you know, easy and same day registration, voting by mail, all of those things that make it easy for people to participate. But I think, you know, the most important thing for me is the civic engagement, you know, getting people to feel that they have input. And in reality, in all these 50 meetings, to some degree, it's happening at the local level. And, you know, instead of saying that change is going to come from the national down, it's really going to emerge from the bottom up, from localities, and people feel much more connected to the local government and totally disconnected to the federal government. So I think this is an opportunity for all of us who have been working the civic engagement world to really sort of activate the grassroots to embrace these changes, because I think that those that's where it's going to come from. I do. And I do really agree. I mean, I think one of the strengths of the report, and I can, again, I can report from the front lines, you know, there was a real fastidiousness, I thought, in the process of making sure that the recommendations were practical, not always to say incremental, but that they were practical and could be implemented. And I, and as someone who occasionally, you know, said, well, what, you know, wanted to throw something more radical out. I think that was the right fidelity. I mean, we have really been thrust into a moment in which I think that we are starting to see more clearly how different the world needs to be. And you can collapse under the weight of that expectation and lose sight of the steps that can be taken today to build toward a radically different kind of world. And that's actually, I want to stay with you, Antonia, on that question, because, you know, you know, your career has been about standing side by side with the people for whom this promise is not being fulfilled, for whom the Democratic promise is not being fulfilled. And we are in a moment where as painful as it is, so many of us are seeing that reflection now in the mirror and understanding what that really means for so many Americans, the ways that we're all implicated in the reality that that promise is systematically designed, systematically denied to so many, you know, what are, as, how are you thinking about this report in the context of this moment, you know, as someone who has been on the front lines of the fight for civil rights, what, where, either, either specifically in terms of the recommendations or something that we didn't talk about, you know, that you think is now a new demand or expectation of citizenship as an obligation in this country. You know, there's a cliche, and I'm not very good with cliches, that it's awful to, you know, to waste, you know, an opportunity for change. And that challenges are that opportunity. And for me, the coronavirus, coupled with the killing of African Americans, have put in our face the inequity, the discrimination, and, you know, the original sin. We can look away from it. It was on our face. And, you know, the growing gap in inequality, the, the, the, the, the racism that has created infrastructures that don't allow everyone to, you know, fulfill their potential. This report could not have been timed better, because we're in an inflection point. We are at a pivotal point where we can really look at our institutions and make them better. And what I say to the young people, you know, is they, you know, all of the ills of American society. And I said, yes, true. Point me to a place that's better than this country. We have the foundation to really live up to the ideal. And as an immigrant, you know, I'm about, I don't, you know, let me put this way. As an immigrant, our ideals were perfect. The implementation was horrible. We have been working to live up to those ideals of equality. And I think that this is the pivotal point where we can reimagine for the 21st century and beyond creating and recreating institutions, whether it's law enforcement and the relationship of law enforcement to communities, particularly communities of colors. When we deal with the inequality, you know, we have named, you know, the truck drivers, essential workers, you know, the people that cut your grass, essential workers. Well, who are they? There's the immigrants. There are the African Americans. They're the low paying poor. And they're the ones that are getting sick with the virus. So it's causing us to really face the reality. And I think that that's the opportunity for me. This is the time for us to embrace not only these changes, but others and reimagine and reconstruct our democracy for the future. I mean, it's really inspiring, right? I mean, I think, you know, crisis sort of shows you what you are. And what I hear you saying is it's only by really looking at what we really are that we can reconnect to our ideals, to the project in an authentic way that will really be relevant, meaningful. I mean, Stephen, you know, I want to go because you've lived through societies in transition, society struggling to refine a story, a set of ideals, you know, you were, you were a leader in civil society in Eastern Europe at a time of tremendous change. Could you tell us a little bit about that experience and how it informs your thoughts on this moment? Yeah, it's very interesting how that experience, which was a decade long engagement in Eastern Europe, right after the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, has informed my thinking about American democracy. And in fact, that experience inspired me to come back to this country committed to the notion that was time to really work on American democracy. And part of what I learned in that experience was this importance of culture and civil society. You know, if you look at the, that 10-year history, Poland, Hungary, what was then Czechoslovakia, East Germany, they moved very rapidly after the revolutions to create the institutions of democracy, the parliaments, free and fair elections, independent judiciaries, freedom of the press, you know, all the kind of basic institutions of a democratic society. And that was really exciting because it happened, you know, after 40 years of oppression, it actually happened very, very quickly. But what didn't happen, and what we're seeing the results of today is that they didn't focus on the democratic culture or on civil society as much as they really needed to do. And I saw one of the questions coming in, what's the distinction between civic culture and civil society? And so civil society is really the space and the organization. So it's the sector in our society between government and the private sector where citizens can organize their own activities in all kinds of clubs, associations, NGOs, etc. And some of them are purely for enjoyment and mutual benefit, like a birdwatching club or a book group, but some of them are about civic purpose. Let's solve this problem in our park, in our neighborhood. Let's get involved in saving a school from being closed because of the budget process. Let's organize, let's think together, let's be innovative. The culture is the, are the attitudes and the values and the norms of behavior, it's what resides in the hearts and minds of the citizenry. And it gets nurtured through cultural medium, music, art, movies, film, television, social media plus, minus, positive, negative, but that's where the culture gets shaped. But if you don't have those norms and beliefs and values, that also weakens democracy because as John Dewey reminded us in the early part of the 20th century, democracy is a faith. It is a, it is a civic set of beliefs. And if you lose that faith, which I think many Americans have, at least their faith is eroding in our democracy, then democracy can't survive. And you know, one, one of the things I, if I could say I'm just about this particular moment and the, and the acuteness of how the racial justice legacy in our country is now so much in our faces and so importantly in our faces. The, the commission kind of takes the view that a number of historians also support that there've been really three foundings in American history. The first one, and what's interesting is they all were challenged by the question of race. Yeah. So the first founding at the end of the 18th century was of course the constitution where there was a huge compromise over race, a compromise that left the issue still alive and totally unresolved and created the original contradiction between our aspirations and our reality. The second founding was after the civil war with the cons, with the reconstruction amendments to the constitution. And many people say that the third founding was the civil rights movement. So the second founding is in the 19th century. The third founding was in the 20th century. All three of these previous fountains were around the issue of race. And here we are today needing a fourth founding and seeing that race is still an unfinished issue in our society and it is time to finish this and move on. And we will not, this is my last point on this question and I'm sorry I'm going on at length here, but I feel this so deeply. We will not accomplish real racial justice in this country unless we fix our democracy and reinvent our democracy because that's the place where people's rights will be guaranteed, where their participation will be valued, where they should be treated equally, and where government delivers on its promises. So the moment is absolutely critical. Antonio how do you respond to that? Well actually you know absolutely but in addition to that and culture is so important and let me make this point because we are a country of immigrants. You know immigrants come into our society. We don't invest in the cultural building of a culture of participating in democracy and I'll give you some examples. When I was at Maldives we had a parent leadership training program and this was to get parents engaged in the schools of their children and so we would bring mostly all the mothers and we would say well in this country you are expected to volunteer. You are expected to be part of the cleaning of the park. You know and I had one woman say but I have no money and I don't speak English and I said well collect books in Spanish. Go to the principal and tell them to give you a shelf where you can put Spanish language you know books and when you read to your kid it doesn't matter that you're reading in Spanish it's the culture of reading. If you want a soccer team you got to go sell tamales. You got to go sell so you can buy the uniforms. I said in this country there are rights but there is also responsibilities and you know and it's not just for the immigrant community. We've done away with civics in school. We've done away with you know sort of passing on the culture of participation. It's a democracy so to me it's we've got to invest in the local engagement of the folks and when I say citizenship I don't mean legal citizenship. The moment a person enters our country we need to integrate them. We need to bring them into the fabric of our life and also explain to them the expectations that we have of them and I don't think we pay that much attention to this and we need to do that in this report is a perfect sample for us to do that. I kind of want to spend a little time actually on this whole question of culture and and sort of faith and belief that's coming up in our questions because I actually think it's it's it's it's hard in this moment but it's going to be one of the softer points I think of how we move forward. I think you know there's a there as we've I think one of the exciting things about this moment is that it's made it much easier for folks from across the ideological spectrum to find their way into a kind of the kind of historicism that you're pointing to Stephen like that there that there are deep contradictions and forms of oppression and marginalization that are coded into the system that have a creative historical consequences which has been a hard place for a lot of Americans to go because they sometimes interpret it as I'm I'm responsible for the sins of the father they interpret you know that it feels like a nihilistic place even to some well-intentioned people but there is a version there is a critique of that that is not reactionary and not revanchist but sort of gets to what you guys are talking about which is if that's the only way we define our identity right and we don't have a positive vision of what it means to be an American that's adequately capacious then then then what up then to your point until you're like what are those responsibilities and how do I see myself as needing to live up to them how into the in terms of faith why would I believe in that liturgy and and but what's hard in practice right is that some of the countries that have higher social trust I'm thinking of like northern European democracies for example that really do a lot of work around the soft expectations of citizenship what it means to be a part of this culture a they tend to have a more homogeneous view of that than I think we are comfortable with as Americans because of of our diversity and and b I have to say those countries have really struggled with relatively low levels of immigration in the last couple years to maintain that kind of civic faith you know it's sort of that's sort of one of a point of optimism I think for Americans that we we can have these refoundings in a way and we can survive them our democracy can survive them but how do you how do you think about because that the commission recommendations can't really address that in a way with specificity how do you maybe first you Antonio and then you Stephen what are what are the restorative elements of a narrative of a purpose of a civic faith to you you know it America you know once again I go to my roots America is an ideal it's not how you look okay it's an ideal an ideal of believing in certain principles the ideal of equality that was struggling with the ideal that we can you know pursue our dream that you know you can come from the poorest roots but if you you know really are given an opportunity and that's the key given the opportunity and you put in the work you're going to achieve look I'm a perfect example as broken as the system is my parents were illiterate we came to this country with nothing and out of the seven children we're all professional all public education this is what this country gave us so we have to reim you know we have to see ourselves and you know the interesting thing and it's a funny joke when I'm in Mexico I feel so American and when I'm in the United States I'm made to feel so Mexican because I don't look like the perception of what an American is so when they ask me where did you come from I say LA no no no really where did you come from because I'm not perceived to be an American and we have to embrace the fact that in America is an ideal we're not homogeneous and the demographics are pointing in the opposite direction so we have to sort of you know sort of the ideal of you know that we can pursue our dream that we believe in democracy that we're responsible for the democracy that we're going to be given an equal opportunity and that we collectively engage in our democracy can make it better it's a hard sell it's a really hard sell but we need to start talking about it in that way Steven what do you think is restorative of a renewed civic faith yeah well you know we we actually have a set of recommendations around this because we as we talked about already in this program we did really think about culture and civil society and those those are the places where the faith gets renewed and so one of our co-chairs is Eric Lu who runs something called Citizen University and one of the things that he's been experimenting with and innovating about are what he calls civic rituals where people gather almost like going to a house of worship but they gather for an experience of democracy you know worship in essence and you know you have a he calls them civic Saturdays and there is in essence a kind of a sermon but it is a civic sermon about issues and about citizens role and how they're feeling and it gets very interactive and sometimes it's very celebratory and sometimes it's it's more of a you know the grieving process for things that are not going well but it is an opportunity for people to think more deeply about the issues rather than just going to the response you know the which then can become quite divisive and partisan so one of our recommendations is to is to actually encourage more support for those kinds of innovations to give more people the invitation and the opportunity to experiment with those kinds of civic rituals and and gatherings that are focused on the ethical and the moral and spiritual foundations of democracy because it is really important that democracy only works as Eric says if people believe it works and and belief is really important I would say you know another part of this is that this is a huge experiment our democracy it's been an experiment since the very beginning and it's gotten more complicated and now the experiment really is can a representative democracy of self-government actually function effectively in a huge extremely diverse you know dynamic society nobody's ever tried it before and and we're struggling with it but we're still committed to and the answer will come through a lot of civic engagement and that is a major thrust of this report and it will also come by helping people to to think of the new American story you know we have history and some people focus on the what what you know people call the gory side of American history starting with the genocide of the native population and then the whole history of racism and slavery and and those things cannot be and should not be denied but other people kind of focus on the glory side of the story you know all the great things America has done what it stands for you know we prevailed against the fascists we prevailed against the communists whatever and there are important accomplishments of this country its innovation its economy its strength but these two stories need to be blended into a truth as opposed to a mythology and we are as one of our recommendations working with some organizations that we hope will invite Americans into a conversation of that nature in communities all across the country between now and 2026 which is the 250th anniversary of our nation's birth so that the American story becomes a collection of stories not a single story because the single story has been about white male dominance basically and then and the new story has to be about all of us because that's who we are and it's fundamentally important that people see themselves in that story and don't have the experience that Antonio just described of people asking her where she's from yeah but you know the thing Sam there's a lot of hope and it's it shows in small places I mean you see the volunteerism and cleaning a beach you know we had the disruptions here we had the vandalism shortly after that happened people out of the street came out with brooms and started you know sweeping this place you know doing that we we already have it we just need to elevate it we are a group of people that will you know and that's one of the thing about the coronavirus you know knocking on the door of the elderly family saying if they're okay the volunteerism we have it in our gene it's in our DNA we just needed to give it an opportunity to flow and to glow and we don't give enough credit you know for the new generation I see a lot of sense of volunteerism in philanthropy I see it a lot I see it you know in people contributing whether it's to fires to coronavirus to you know the what's happening with law enforcement people want what we're forgetting is people want to belong people you know we have to elevate our communal not to the detriment of the individualistic but in this huge country of ours we need to balance the sense of the individualistic independence with the need for the communal and need to bring up balance and I think that that's what we're trying to do I I agree with that I mean I look I think the way out of the sort of northern European paradox is that the story is going to be emergent in America it's not the doctrine only works at a homogeneous society in a diversity of any diversity a doctrine becomes a dogma or a myth even worse even worse becomes a becomes a myth and one of the recommendations that I was certainly an advocate for and remain excited about is there's a marker in there for a national trust for social and civic infrastructure kind of the places where we come together for shared experience and those are the places where I think the emergent story happens some of those places are the gory crucible of fire where that story is forged you know and others are you know to your point like inspiring moments where the story is shaped and believed in so I really I mean I I think we are this is the optimistic call the pessimists you know you can log off but but I want to we're gonna have to go so I want to I want to get out on kind of one forward-facing question we're getting some questions about things that weren't addressed by you know electoral college you know some of those things would love to know either something that you all think was not addressed but is a is an important topic that you would lift up in thinking about this question of of the future of democratic citizenship or just sort of an issue that you sort of the next issue out there that you think we should be anticipating the next frontier in whatever this journey or project is maybe Antonio will start with you and then let's even close one of the things that I'm getting and I saw in the chat that already came out is the issue of the electoral electoral college we didn't address it directly because I as I began to say we wanted to be very practical we didn't be want to be caught up in this thing going on for years we didn't address it directly but we did address it indirectly and that was through the increase of the congressional delegation by 50 to reflect a more balance so yes you know where we thoroughly radical well you know to my point of view we could have been a little bit more but I'm very pleased I'm very pleased with you know how practical we were and if nothing else I want to live to see some of these recommendations adopted and so um you know could we have done other things yes but you know 31 recommendations is a hell of a lot too and and we had to narrow it down so I would say that if we do these 32 we're going to be 90 percent there all right Steven what about you what's what's what's the future horizon here well uh two two things are really through you on the electoral college you know my personal view we should abolish the electoral college and a number of members of the commission shared that view but there were others who didn't you know there are others who understand the original reasons for the electoral college and still think in a more conservative view of of our democracy of our constitutional democracy that it has a role to play so Antonio is absolutely right by expanding the house you also expand the number of seats a number of electors in the electoral college and they will go to the more urban states because of the population so you begin to erode the imbalance in the electoral college so that's one but there's another one that's related to it that that we talked about that we couldn't get consensus on either which is the structure of the united states senate yes you know the united states senate each state gets two senators and right now and and the representation is disproportionately for small states with small populations so they now have the majority of votes in the united states senate simply because of the structure of the senate and as the population continues to urbanize the urban parts of america will continue to be really underrepresented in the senate and the very small you know a state like wyoming which i love and it's beautiful having two senators while california also has two i mean that's that gives you a sense of the imbalance but we couldn't go there either and you know that's that's fair um uh we want this to be a trans ideological report and the fact that we got consensus on these 31 is pretty miraculous uh in the end and i guess i would close because i know our time is up i i just want to say that that i think at first i want to i want to confirm the optimism that you and antonio express we americans can do this and i again as somebody who studied american history to think back to what alexis to tokville said after his trip through america in uh in the early part of the 19th century he said the greatness of america lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation but in her ability to repair her faults and this is a moment when we need to do a lot more repair amen fantastic well i'm not going to say anything after that what a what a wonderful sentiment to uh to end the show you can find the report of the commission on the practice of democratic citizenship at amacad.org slash our common purpose i think we've sent it out in the chat box we'll send it out by email you can follow the rock fella rock fella brothers fund on twitter at rock bros fund and the california foundation on twitter at cal fund um and again we'll get this out right after the show but steven antonio thank you so much for joining us pleasure yeah thank you for having us and thank you antonio great to be with you again thank to do it all right excellent before we go i just uh want to tell you all a little bit about what's coming up on vision we'll have a trio of shows uh over the next couple weeks about issues of speech and expression in a time of turbulence and change uh on june 25th we'll hear from jeff stone at the university of chicago he's a leading thinker on free speech particularly during times of conflict and crisis on july second we'll hear from dr wane frederick the president of howard university in susanne nostl the head of penn america to talk about campuses and expression and on july 9th we'll hear from university of miami law professor marianne franks to talk about online speech as a reminder this episode will be up on the website tomorrow you can see this episode in any episode on demand at kf.org slash vision email us at vision at kf.org or visit us on instagram at vision dot kf please take the survey that just popped up and as always we will end of the show with music from miami singer songwriter nick county his music is available on spotify until next week everyone stay safe