 What I see starting to happen very slowly is much more around equality and equity, which are obviously slightly different, as well as diversity and inclusion. And those are the areas that I think, no matter how much technology we have, if we're not tackling those areas, then we're not making progress. Stephen Rammage is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media Innovators Magazine and the Alohas Regenerative Foundation. Stephen's lowest grade, and I'm not sure if I should say a C, as school was geography, but he has been working in the geospatial sector and evangelizing location as the third global currency alongside time and money for the last two decades. Stephen started studying French, German, Russian, and Spanish in the 80s, but moved to commerce and information systems because his grandfather, who supported him through university, didn't think languages would be useful. Today, Stephen works in three to four languages most weeks, but his background in computing and information systems has served him well. He works extensively on collective intelligence in an intergovernmental partnership spanning more than 100 countries and probably close to 1000 organizations with countless individual contributors. He has written the words of Margaret Mead about the power of individuals and has been promoting the concept of interoperability for over a decade. Stephen would like organizations to think more about behavior incentives and motivation as they develop data strategies and work towards access and sharing of data to address key global challenges. But he knows and understands that the data is meaningless without buy-in and use. Stephen was part of a management buyout has created a government startup, been on the board of an industry startup, and has been in numerous leadership positions. The fellow of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors is a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and was recently invited to be a fellow of the World Economic Forum. He's a visiting professor at the Institute for Future Cities at the University of Strats Clyde in Glasgow, Scotland, and an advisor to the UK Space Agency. He's a storyteller and keeps thinking about writing a book. He's also mentored 100 plus younger professionals, women's in the geospatial sector. He's also a friend of mine, and we've worked on many things. Welcome Stephen. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you. You missed one more to my profile, which was human interoperability, because everyone talks about interoperability and it's the human interoperability that I'm interested in. Great. And I'm glad you, I mean, in reality, your biography is a lot longer. It's always like, okay, do we read the whole thing? Do we do it? But you've been, you're as old as I am. We're the same birth year. And so you've been around the block. You've been doing this for a while. So really, that's a lot of experience, a lot of connections. And we know each other really from the United Nations resilience frontiers, a little bit. We've seen each other and other other projects and friends like the UN EP DP codes project coalition for digital environmental sustainability. And just different communities were also both at the World Economic Forum and so obviously that's that's a place and hope to see you in person in May at the annual meeting in Davos. There are some interesting things going on and the biggest one is really you're connected to everyone and anyone. I mean, you've worked with people you're still working with people and it's just like this spider web of network of people. You're you're connected to good, bad and ugly just working on making this world better or giving them the knowledge to make it better. And so I thank you for that. That's given you so much wisdom, I would say, to see how the world works. Do you feel the same or is it do you take it in a different way is it you know is this whole this whole thing like the more I learned the less I know you know that that and it's funny because even although that's the case and I know I know it's the same for you because every time I see a podcast that someone got a book and you've read the book and and I feel the same it's like I now have this like quest for knowledge. And so like, you know, I have the these are these are the books sitting at the side of my side of me and I sort of like I've got five or six books on the go all the time and I think when you get the the sort of like you get into one topic you know and then you're oh I've got to learn about that and then that leads to another topic and then I'm like oh how does that go back to my work and oh I know that person who did this and and before you know it you're like your mind is like exploding and expanding with all these ideas. So I don't know I mean I put it back to you do you think it's wisdom for me I'm not sure it's quite wisdom. I think it's maybe more just just continuous learning for the moment. You know what I think it is is it's two things want one I believe it's your expansion of collective intelligence I think you're adding more to your library of your own individual intelligence, but then because you have the strong community connected like, like I said to just a numeral amount of wonderful people. You're adding to the collective intelligence because you're kind of like sharing back and forth this network of networks, all this great information and really doing it in a way that I mean I see it as as we're differentiated from other species even though we're an animal ourselves that we have this collective intelligence that we can pass on through books and videos and discussions and interaction with one another. That always takes humanity a step for further or higher on our journey to keep up to speed with our exponentially growing world. So that you know where humanity is part of this ecosystem and and really do that and so I kind of see it in both different ways and I know you've mentioned these things before. I mean, do you do you tend to agree or do you do you think it's different? I don't know. I mean, I get surrounded by teenagers because I have a teenage son and I watch the way that they deal with the world and how they approach it and there's this kind of like just peripheral surface level on everything. And I find a lot of people are like that, like maybe it's because of like the Twitter effect or LinkedIn or these, you know, and fake information and whatever else. I find that the level of knowledge people have in a lot of areas is kind of superficial. And they think that that's enough and so they like to talk about things that they think they know about, but they actually don't have that much deep knowledge. And the converse I find is true when you get these deep experts who know stuff inside out. People don't seem to really go to them or trust them for their expertise, you know, but these are people who've spent their entire careers working in these areas. So I find there's a bit of a dichotomy there. And I don't really, I don't really know how that gets changed because the amount of information I mean I even showed it myself I'm trying to read five or six books, and I have like 300 tabs open on every device. You know, so I'm not sure if we all, I mean, I'm actually off Twitter at the moment, I'm detoxing. Kind of for that reason. I just, I just decided to step back because my brain was exploding with information and, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't making me particularly productive. So I don't know if I've answered your question, but no, I think you have the information is really hard for everyone. And we're not sure how to really what what's important, what's the information that we should really dive deep in and what really matters to us. Yeah, I what what I hear out of that and you can disagree, or concur either way is that one that these experts are really also kind of in their own bubbles their own silos. They've been in that and so they might not be able to relate and the outside world might not be able to relate with with their expertise, and there's also not that good blend of, of explaining a crossover of that, that information, and then it's really this. What collective intelligence do we pass on what kind that do we use for our own self to gain our own knowledge and wisdom because a lot of the stuff is. It's not taught in school it's hard to find out there sometime there's a lot of information overload there's a lot of documents all over and and don't be afraid I know you're with an intergovernmental agency and so we're not going to get into a bureaucratic or any kind of get into any drama that's going on in the world. But, but really it's hard to sift through some of the media and information that we're receiving to kind of fine tune where we need to go as humanity and to move us forward. I mean, I went to a meeting yesterday for the IPCC, you know the intergovernmental panel and climate change, and almost what you described happened. So we have these experts who have, you know, thousands of these experts have got together with the scientists and they've put together the guidance. around what's happening with adaptation mitigation and they put together these summaries for policymakers and everything. And everybody says we need to act now we need action that are now is the time to deliver and then they probably will just go back to whatever they're doing and, you know, and that's the thing that kind of drives me mad is like, you know, all these people who say oh we got five million views on our podcast well, you know, great but what action did that result in. And one guy it was a physicist from CERN he said look, I'm, I'm a scientist but I don't understand all the stuff you've put in in this report. How do you explain this to people who are like my mother or my sister or people who are never going to read a report. And I don't think the answer was particularly forthcoming I think, you know, there's still a big gulf between the amazing work don't get me wrong I really really admire and I think it's important the work IPCC does and the huge effort put in by all these all these people and the people who are helping to sort of translate some of that stuff into the policymaker activity and the summary for policymakers that I mentioned. But I still think there's this massive gulf to get that to the sort of like the people who don't understand the terminology. But like you said at the beginning you and I are the same age and I feel it right now. I'm 50, well 51 soon. And I'm hoping to work for another 20 years maybe 25 years. And so where do I put my energy for for that next quarter of a century. These are the sort of existential thoughts that I have. When I go to these kind of meetings and I hear that it makes me wonder do I need to pivot and do something else, you know, rather than where where I sit currently. So as well as you reading a lot of books I you know I read a lot of books as well and I don't know if you've seen this one or not it's Tara Incognita. Yeah, it's one. It's pretty biblical it's 100 maps to survive the next 100 years which is interesting and then another one is from Dr. I've had him on the podcast a couple times he just came out with a new book move and his books before were cartography and kind of about these satellite maps of the way the world kind of really is working even though we think it's divided up different on geography and different things and, and I'm fascinated by this because I'm also of the belief that had it not been for the latest computing power innovation visions and dreams to send us to the moon to get us to outer space. We really would be in the dark about a lot of things that's going on on our planet and have this kind of this earth shot and this cosmic perspective this overview effect and so that innovation is a tickling and a hint of how our world's working and functioning and and what you do it. The geo is really tied and connected to that. Can you tell us if if you agree with that that, even though it's innovation which for a lot of people is really kind of a mystery you know what what does coding mean and how how do we what about the satellites and all this, you know we want to go to other planets. How do you make sense of that and how do you when you're evangelizing or connecting these people and, especially with geo, going around the world kind of discussing this. How do you harness that and bring that together to give people that collective intelligence or understanding what the potential is on those things. And that comes from what we describe as openness. So we would start with something like open innovation. And the reason it's open is because it's participatory. So we're all about collaboration and that and that's what I've learned you know that's where I've worked pretty much last 20 years of my career is, you know getting that those multiple inputs. So I moved from sort of open innovation and open innovation is underpinned by things like open standards. And then I had a director who worked really hard to push us towards open science. And now we have a new director I'm on my third director by the way. So now we're on a new director, and she wants to work on open knowledge, which is kind of the culmination of all of these under the banner of open knowledge and so, you know I've been working on all this stuff anyway I just, the moniker has changed you know but this is all stuff I've been I've been doing for my entire career. And I think what what what I see starting to happen very slowly is much more around equality and equity which are obviously slightly different as well as diversity and inclusion. And those are the areas that I think you know no matter how much technology we have, if we're not tackling those areas then we're not making progress. And so, you know, I heard someone we were talking about the just transition for climate change, which is fantastic that that language is now included. You know, if we're not thinking about that, then we're not going I don't think we're going the right direction. And what I find is a lot of the people I work with are very much, you know, they make big statements about well this technology will save the planet and save, you know, there's like 2.9 billion people who had no access to the internet, you know, a year ago. So, they kind of out a touch with some of the practical reality on the ground people who don't have electricity. And the one who is concerned is the price of an egg, you know I have people I work with in informal settlements in Kibera in Nairobi and these are the things that they talk to me about. So, there's a huge gap between what the tech community thinks it's helping versus that some of the real issues on the ground. I see some organizations that absolutely get this you know some NGOs and and organizations like UNDP and others that are on the ground UNICEF. But when you go to like Geneva where I'm based or New York I find there's it's just a lot of admin and bureaucracy around these organizations. So I don't know how to kind of like split up, you know, the action on the ground with the, to some extent the necessary bureaucracy because you have to monitor and measure how funds are being distributed and everything. This is something that really plays on my mind a lot. You know, because I sit in Geneva and I feel like I'm not really getting to the real impact on the ground. I think I'm in my personal life because I make an effort to do that, but at work level I feel like we could be doing more. So I sort of warbled I don't know if I answered your question. Well, absolutely you answered it and you, I mean, there's a couple of things that come out and I know because I know you a little bit better than the listeners. I think that that you're really taking you have the strong belief and diversity and open source and transparency but more so this. How can we get communities to harness this collective intelligence this information that's just being, you know, terabytes or more of data every single moment of the day that are being collected and harness that how can we use that to get us on the right side of history and harness that and and and give it to everybody includes and and we're not just talking about the Western world and so I really get that and I want I want you to talk about that more but it really ties to our last experience was in the United Nations and bond we were at the resilience frontiers working meeting and we had a foresight type of retreat activity where we're kind of getting into the future and foresight and there were some really interesting things that that came out there that that we had on and off line in that meeting that really kind of move towards this question. What does a world that works for everyone look like, and that you know that's one of the big questions that I really want to jump out and ask you right off the bat. You know, who you're very opinionated you also have experienced a lot of things on how you think we're failing or are kind of doing things in the world you're you kind of have a direction or a vision I think already in your mind of what we should be doing. That involves a little more action a little less talk and a little, a little, a lot less meetings, but what does a world that works for everyone look like for you. I've learned a lot. So, so you know, we were with Hindu Omar and Hindu, you know, she comes from Africa, she speaks French and you know that's like our third or fourth or fifth language. And, you know, working with Hindu and I work with with other colleagues from the geo indigenous alliance. Hindu and I went and had like some, you know, like had dinner together. And I come from this little Scottish village. And it was so funny how much we had in common, just around the approach of how I grew up in this village and what we did. I mean, obviously, where I grew up it was like cold and wet and gray and where she is grows up is like hot and pretty arid and you know, he's been Chad. Exactly. And so, you know, but we have very similar approach to life and views on things and, and how things could be done or should be done. And I find that quite enlightening that, you know, we come from completely different backgrounds, completely different worlds, but we have a very similar approach. And I think there are many more people around the world who are very similar. And I think part of it is, is around a bit of humility. And part of it is around listening to others and being willing to learn. If you remember when we had one of the exercises at resilience frontiers. All as Western folks were like, right, let's rank the ideas you know this is number one, this is number two, this is number three. And Hindu said, we don't rank ideas because it means whoever's at number four, their idea doesn't get listened to because you've already picked the top three. So listen to all the ideas and then if it is the fourth idea, it will naturally get filtered out. And so things like that, you know, I think it's really hard for people. Like I read about people who are like, oh yeah, just moved to you interviewed some women who's doing amazing stuff but she she just moved to Uruguay. Not everyone can do that. Probably 95% of the world can't do that. And I comment about people not realizing who has access to the internet and I reviewed a document yesterday this is my life. I reviewed something that was written about we need to give support to the indigenous community we can lead them to do. No, no, no, that's wrong. They've been doing this stuff for hundreds of years before any of you, you know, we've interfered and disrupted what they've been doing very well and very happily. They've been installing lots of their ideas and everything else. So I think it's, it's, it's putting yourself in, in the sort of the shoes of others. And even for me, like, you know, now I live here, I get paid, you know, in Geneva and I see like my coven for example I see what happened to my, my nephew, my nephew had a good job in Glasgow in Scotland. And then because of COVID he got made redundant. And then his partner had a had an accident at work and he had to take time off work, and then he couldn't walk and then. So then suddenly they find themselves neither of them are working and they can't really go out and you know it says downward spiral. And I think we're always all just one step away from from that situation. And if we're collectively thinking about that and helping each other, then it will make it a lot easier for us as as a society and I don't know if this is like a socialist view or a liberal view or whatever. But I do believe that actually money is really important and I believe that making money is important because for me, the more money I make, the more I can help others, because I can afford to give to different causes and different charities. So, that reflects and everything I do I think it which is trying to get people just to think a little bit about what other people are doing, you know how they're approaching it what are their struggles what are their challenges, or what are the opportunities. I find people are really quite either lazy or selfish. I think, and I don't know, because I'm not a sociologist, or even an anthropologist but I don't know how have we reached this stage in society today, for those are some of the key characteristics of a lot of people and they're very much tied to what people would call success, you know, because they think, because they've got money, then they're sort of better than others, but I think often that's short lived, because we all go up and down in our fortune. So, to give me a paragraph of answering that complex question, what does a world that works for everyone look like for you. Is it that equality for everyone that same for everyone, regardless of being lazy, or, or is it something else. I find, I mean, you talked about Parag, you know, and I've seen his Royal Geographic Society lectures the RGS, and he talks about, you know, the kind of the, the geography of where you're born and what that means and I can't remember if he just says you know it's your good or bad luck where you're born. But I think it's a bit more complex than that now because I've chosen to be away from Scotland this year's my 30th year away from Scotland. I left in 92 and you know, I'm a Scotsman living in France working in Switzerland for a global and governmental organization. So I'm like in your terms I'm a global citizen. And equity and equality are very hard because it depends on whose perspective you're looking at. If you are in that informal settlement in in Cibera, in Cibera, then you know, your, your life view is going to be, you want to try and get stable accommodation and get stable income and you want to be able to put food on the table every day. For others, their, their, their problems are oh, I haven't been on holiday for six months because of COVID and I can't travel. You know, so the problems are very different. So I don't know. I mean COVID was probably one of the things that maybe flattened that sort of equity, equality distribution. But it didn't, it didn't. I mean, there were huge inequalities because of like who got the vaccines and who didn't. But at the same time, nobody could travel, you know, everybody had to obey the rules and, you know, do whatever the legislation said. So I think it depends on your viewpoint and where you sit. And, and, and that's the part that I think is really hard, because a lot of people come in with it with a viewpoint they think is a world view. It's not. It's a, it's a Western or a global North view. And I'm guilty of that. And I have to pull myself back. And I have to remember that, you know, that story about the price of an egg. I have to remember that when I'm thinking of going out to buy my next bike or, you know, my new skis or something, you know, do I really need them? Could I use that to help someone somewhere else do something else? Yeah, so I know that it's important to be financially secure or to have money so that you can be charitable to others and help out in that respect. Our models were to shift and to change where everyone had that equality of not, and I wouldn't say universal basic income, but that security of the basics, the infrastructure, the food, water, shelter, security, so that they didn't just need to worry about the basics of life, but could focus on, you know, thriving and surviving and growing and being creative and doing what their soul intended to be or to do. Do you think that would make a big difference? Absolutely. I mean, in 2015, I worked for the World Bank in Tanzania on a water sanitation and health program wash. And just, you know, you read all these articles about how people don't need money to be happy. And I think that's true. And, you know, there's a there's an amount of money that is, I think it's something like, you know, $75,000, like, people are happy. I mean, for some of the people I work with, like, they're never going to see $75,000 in a lifetime, right. And I think based on what you just said, if there's a level of income that's commensurate with the lifestyle they lead, and that lifestyle is, you know, they do have clean sanitation, they do have drinking water. They do have what we would call normal things in life, but their luxuries, like, you know, being able to get on the internet every day without having to think about electricity and those things. Then, yes, I think that that would be, you know, hands-rozzling. You know, if you read fact books, you probably read, yeah, you know, and you look at the work that his children have continued. I wish there were more people doing that kind of education, and just explaining, you know, that some some things have improved over the years, but there are still big challenges at an infrastructure level. And I think now we get into this situation where people are also using things like climate change as an excuse to put off some of those investments or to defer those investments or so. Yeah, I mean, people are older, younger, wiser than me are taking on these challenges, and this is what I feel like I should almost give up what I'm doing and somehow find a way to contribute to this, you know. And I had a big decision because I thought, you know, I really enjoyed working. It was a short-term contract, but I enjoyed what I did for the World Bank in Tanzania, because you can see the change on the ground. And you know that we were we were mapping there's 90,000 water points, and you know that it's women and children who are walking to collect the water. And if you can make the water points closer to where people live and it improves the distribution and the access to water, then that makes a change in people's lives. And I really enjoyed that and I thought that's, that's something I want to do and then I decided to join Geo because we're working on policy. And so if you can impact policy, and you can make policy that changes hundreds of millions of lives, then surely that's a better thing. But you get wrapped up in all the politics and the bureaucracy and the language. I don't know. I can't figure out where's the best place to have the most impact. And so that's why on my personal life, I try and support some people financially in communities where I just know life is really tough and it's not that hard for me to help them. And not just financially I tried to give some some knowledge and some experience from, you know, having worked for, you know, 25 30 years. So I don't know I mean your questions are. There's no you let me tell you you got the answer right. There's no really right or wrong answer and I think, and I know actually not I don't think I know, because I've asked about 3000 people that same question. And every time the answer has been different there's only been maybe not even a handful that have been similar. The cultures the community the alignment on what people are living at the moment and what they've experienced in their life is also different and they're also living different models they're living different economic models are living different life models some are very extractive some are very hedonistic some are very capitalistic, whatever type of a life model and some people are living like three or four different models at the same time they work this job. You know, could be very capitalistic or an extractive labor type of a job, but then when they're at home it's a, it's a total different model that they live at home and so it's almost like these separate lives or worlds that are kind of trying to merge and in many respects. There's a lot of a lot of humanity is, especially in the Western world I feel is that their their work is pulling or taking them in one direction or pushing in one direction in their home and family life is pushing in a complete different direction and this conflict when when you come before the pandemic time when you would come home from work or on the weekends you know how to make that work life balance and that blended, you know, lifestyle and so, but I, you definitely answered, answered it correctly. There's also strongly of the belief that if one of us is suffering whether it's a city a country or a person, then we all suffer unless we kind of find a way to get a balance because eventually it affects the entire world's issue I mean, we see the rep ripple effects on that and many respects. The other thing that you mentioned about geo is our that I really like and I can't answer the question for you but this is how I see it. I see obviously the impact on policy from from geo fabulous but I also see this infrastructure of the future being laid and being built that if you have that influence that you mentioned in the beginning of our conversation about openness and transparency and kind of for everyone and that that if we lay that foundation we make sure it's accessible and available for those in the developing worlds are those who need that. I think those extra tools and Hindu or Omru Ibrahim who you mentioned, good friend of both of us and we know her but she's using that technology now matter of fact she just sent me some pictures for the. I'm not contributing to my book menu be but in Chad she's using geospatial data satellite data and information to help her pastoral community to take that indigenous wisdom and give it kind of a little superpower because now they've they've got a little bit bigger picture of what's going on which, which is a big help it's really an enabler in some respects in some respects it can it can be used for you know the ugly in the bad as well. But I like the opportunity that it opens up for this and so my my view is to come back and answer your your question is really, I believe you're setting that infrastructure that that works so that eventually. The policies the access the data points are there because I do believe broadband should be a human right I believe that everybody should have these fundamental infrastructures to be able to keep up with this exponentially growing world we need some tools as humanity to kind of understand what's going on, and we don't need it in different parts of the world we need it wherever humanity is so these local economies these local technologies and, and really that's available and accessible. One reason, and you know maybe you can you can tell me your, your views or opinions about, I'm really kind of a fan of Starlink brought broadband or that type of a concept to have a kind of a global sim a global internet provider that kind of, you know removes nations borders and it gives accessibility to everyone, not just at high speeds but just to get them on the information highway of good bad and ugly of what's going on so to say today because I think it's a it's an, an empower and enabler to get people on the right side of history to have those basic resources and I really think you're, you're rightly placed. It's nice to, to do those projects and Tanzania and other places and see the insights on smaller areas of the world and how that impacts, and especially if they work, and you can the communities around Tanzania and if you keep spreading further than say hey this really worked good here. Can we mimic that model can we get help you open source and transparent to spread it. The thing in my business world or my world of dealing with a lot of businesses. Let's say Coca Cola or Pepsi or Unilever or I deal a lot with food companies, or even energy companies. This is what they call projects that have to do with renewables or have to do with new technologies, and they, and they get grants and subsidies for that and they say wow this, this really work this was so successful. But then you're like well why don't you implement that at all of your 900 other facilities and do it. Instead they just say oh yeah it was a great project made money and was successful. They got the grants and the subsidies and then they walk away and so I, I just like, why aren't we implementing some of these things worldwide and that's kind of my focus. Yeah, I mean, you raised a lot of points, I mean, I, it is I mean I remember when I first started then what's called the sort of the geospatial sector. Everybody kept saying you know we need to get outside and talk to others outside our community, but they were still saying that to the people inside their community. So when I joined you I went to the World Economic Forum, and I know there's a lot of views and I think a lot of them are misunderstood as well. The reason I went to the World Economic Forum is because it's business leaders and it's, and it's world leaders as presidents and prime ministers. And so, you know, I went from maybe being able to get coverage from 50,000 or 100,000 readers and some publications or even you know a million across Twitter to 2030 40 million. And I think that's part of it is, you know, that, that reach and that ability like you were saying to sort of take good practice and spread out and because we are competing on a knowledge base today, then you need to somehow stand out or you need to have a message that resonates with people. And so, for me, I think that's maybe why I feel like the geospatial sector is now mature, even although people keep saying we need to step outside. And the range of applications and the places where geospatial data tools technology services are being used is pretty much everywhere in the world. It can obviously always continue and grow, but the penetration has definitely, you know, increased dramatically since I started. I do younger commentators coming in and, you know, it's like the cyclical stuff, you know, like I made the point of using the term human interoperability because I've listened to the term interoperability now for three cycles I'm in my third cycle, you know, and I've got all these younger people coming through who think that we've never thought about all the things they're thinking about now, and I did the same myself, you know, you come in and you see a problem and you think, you know, I haven't got an idea for a solution for that. But the people who are before you're like, yeah, yeah, we've tried that too and, you know, we went down this path and best didn't work etc. So, I guess what is good with geo is that we, we have over, you know, there's over 100 countries, and within each country, there are a number of different agencies, you know, trying that sort of interagency collaboration is a big drive for you know, so trying to get the agriculture ministry to work with the water ministry to work with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to work with the National Statistical Office and get them all aligned from our perspective around Earth observations. When I talk about Earth observations, I mean the ability to measure anything happening on land, sea or air. So we can we say sensors in on and around the earth. So many people think that it's just satellites and it's not it's much more. It could be like ground water or soil moisture or ocean salinity, those are other measures of Earth observations. So, so from that perspective, the work of geo is amazing to, to drive towards these big policy frameworks like the SDGs of the 2030 agenda, the Paris Agreement, the New Urban Agenda Sendai framework, the pneumatic agreement, all of these areas is what we're doing, but, but we're still very much based on taking science and technology into policy and decisions. And then we don't really see what the decisions lead to and I guess that's where I'm, I'm feeling like I'd like to see, I'd like to be aligned with the decisions and the action on the ground. But how to do that, I don't know. And maybe, maybe, maybe it's something I need to try and do more through geo. It's actually really rewarding to see that as well on the ground and I know why you're really, really bring that up because it's, it's a different feeling. Sometimes when you have this bigger perspective and dealing with all these countries and in their, in their governmental agencies. It's, it's hard not to be blinded by the bureaucracy or to pull all your hair out. I don't know if you pulled out your hair I haven't yet. Really, another thing that we're talking about there is this model this these, these models that we're, we're working with and humanity has had this huge problem forever. We keep repeating the same models over and over again I mean we've had more than 21 different civilization collapses before in our world you know early antiquity Mesopotamia Greeks Roman on and on, and they were all because of environmental political collapse tied to food and basic infrastructures and then two of them were tied to displacement or disease viruses and conflict collapses and really look at all of them they all around the same model this very hierarchy model where there's a ruler emperor, president, someone at top a dictator, a lord a king, whatever. And then at the bottom is this peasants and farmers and and laborers and on the bottle kind of holding the whole infrastructure up. And is one that can't sustain itself forever it's a model that is, it is almost like an inverted pyramid it's weighted in the wrong direction on the wrong people, and after these civilizations get built up. They don't help build the framework who have been beaten down and troddened and kind of you know the farmers laborers and peasants so to say, slaves is really those people who then, once the society's been built up to a certain level they realize can't sustain itself and they need to those people need to leave, or somehow go away or there's this disease right. So, we're seeing that model repeated today all over the place I work on several, you know, cities and organizations that are building up and I've seen the past and in different parts of the world where they haul in people from Pakistan and from Korea and from India to come and build up do the construction work in the hospitality and then after it's built up. And I don't want to mention any names Qatar or Dubai or anything like that but once it's built up then those people need to go away they live in camps and labor pools during that time and then they go away. And that's a very similar model to those civilization frameworks and so I would really like to know because you talk about these boundary spanners and you talk about models of worldly work and that's why I asked you that question in the beginning what does the world that works for everyone look like what models do you see emerging and as this geospatial area that you've been focused in. What's the follow behind that is that more network and networks and can you kind of tell me a little bit what what you've seen in your experience and where do you think we need to go. So there is, I mean I don't, I don't think there is a world that works for everyone I think there are, there are, there are many different models and and people have choice and they choose which model works best for them and their values and their style and so I, I guess I should be clear that I don't think there is one single model. And the same is true for the work that we do, which is why originally there was this like global Earth observation system of systems, because there are so many different systems. So, you know, can you bring the systems together and make the best use of the best parts of the systems. That's always been my kind of approach to the systems of systems thing. And so the network of networks ideas is very similar that I can never reach personally. I know 195 countries of the UN, but through this network approach then yes I can reach a lot more than I, than I can going one on one. And so I think that that approach of taking the elements of the model that work really well is a really good model. And that's something that now what we're trying to look at is. You said right at the beginning, you know, if something happens in one part of the world has an impact on the on another part of the world. And so that interconnectedness is not always reflected in what we do in the science and technology. It's not about the motives or because researchers are paid according, you know, they have to publish to X number of papers. You know, so there are always these limitations on how people work and how people operate. I think what Geo does is tips that on his head and so we bring in the private sector, and, you know, they're not allowed to own or keep the data that that comes from the countries that we work with everything's open access. They're all, you know, open, shareable knowledge, freely and openly available data, all of these things. And so I think that's what what is really useful when when you sit at the table. And our executive committee is 16 countries. So Senegal has has a say, alongside USA, you know, very different sized countries with very different budgets, but they sit at the same table. And that rotates, you know, the people who are on that table. And the same thing is true in the work program we have like about 65 activities in the work program. The work is driven by consensus. So, you know, you can come in from any country in the world or any type of organization. And you give your view and then others will talk crowd and they'll see what's best for the community. So I really like that model and that approach and I've done it in other communities during my career. And I think there are there are some of these kind of communities that have developed quite sophisticated way. So, in a more sophisticated manner, I don't know the word I was trying to say, but there's there's organizations like the humanitarian open street map team. And really they got they applied for this audacious project, and they got well they won't say publicly how much money they got but I know it was quite significant because I've seen the way they've hired and grown and their opening offices around the world. And the way that they've done it, which has been very transparent and based on equity and they publish the salary rates, they publish, you know, the criteria for the jobs and they try to they really try hard to follow those kind of principles. And so if that model works for you and your ethics and your morals and your, your outlook on life, then then that's great. But I know that there's a whole bunch of other people because I spent, you know, 15, 18 years in the private sector. They wouldn't even touch that model because they don't get it. And they're very focused on, you know, profitability and growth. And, you know, all these other things which is a very different thing. So that's why I don't think there is one single model. And I don't know, I mean, I'm not a philosopher. I probably should read more philosophy because I live in, I live in the town that Voltaire built. I live in Fernie Voltaire. And so there's a lot of stuff around about here on the pavement, you know, the sidewalk with quotes from Voltaire. There's a park where we have Voltaire shows all in French every summer. So maybe maybe I need to get a bit more into philosophical philosophical thinking because my thinking is probably quite, I see this community here, this community here, this community there. And I don't really see much of a crossover with them. And that's where I think things like climate change can bring the communities together because if we're all trying to address humanity as basic level and survive, then maybe that's something that can help us all. But it needs, this is where my human interoperability comes in because it needs us to understand how do humans work together. You know, what are those intrinsic motives? What are the incentives for people to do this? What stops people from doing things like data sharing or collaboration or even just listening to each other, you know, and there's very little literature or anything on human interoperability. So that's something I've been trying to push. I did a blog post with the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development Data, GPSDD, last year. And we talked about, you know, how can we drive this concept forward? How can we engage more people in doing this? So that's the kind of thing that I'm trying to, I'm trying to push and I'm trying to use my experience and knowledge to get people to contribute more to that so that overall we break down some of those barriers and we drive collaboration. I love that. I have some other questions for you. So there's the digital ecosystem for the earth that we also kind of did with David Jensen from the UNDP as well. Has that now moved or morphed into codes or is that a really separate thing and how does that compare to what Geo does? I think I asked you the question once before, is there like one hub cumulative spot of information data where all these sites that are looking back at our earth and collecting data are put together with the sensors and information to get that information that we need to make it open source to find it. And so I'm kind of wondering, is that Geo? Is that something different? Is that an aspect in Geo or is it another platform? Is there someone working on it? Geo is for sure. I mean, UN environment program, UNEP where David works and we work with a lot of them. The colleagues are on a whole range of, I've been part of the big data working group for the UN Science Policy Business Forum, along with IBM, we co-chair of that working group. And if you look at the stuff that David's been working on, then a lot of it is around the big earth data and some of those concepts, but I think they go further because UNEP has a broader climate than Geo. And so they do look at some of the stuff around incentives and changing behaviour and circular economy and the things that UNEP looks at around pollution and some of these other areas. We're kind of more laser focused on earth observations. So if you look at, I mean, yes, you have like, you know, the NASA Landsat program, which is all about open data, it's been doing that for 15 years now. And you have the Copernicus program from the European Commission and European Space Agency and others. You can get lots of data and information. You can get guidance on how to use those data and information. You can get examples of cost benefit analysis. All of that stuff is in there. I think what Geo is trying to do is bring everything public and private sector and the Indigenous community and youth and others. And really find a way to make all of that as available as open knowledge so that it does really drive the policy making policy development in countries. We have, we worked over the last few years on something called a knowledge hub. And so this is a, is described as a digital repository or like a digital library. And it's, you know, I mentioned those 65 activities. Some of those activities are really big, like for example, GeoGlam on global agricultural monitoring came out as a result of a mandate from the G20 ministers of agriculture more than a decade ago. They've been supporting and responding to that ever since, but they've had to deal with things like policy changes that came in, like through the global policy frameworks in 2015, with the, you know, the Paris Agreement and the 2030 agenda. And so they've had to move how they, how they respond. But they do things like crop monitoring for early warning. So they've had to provide a, you know, look at the crop monitoring conditions and say, what does that mean in terms of what's going to happen to people's livelihoods, or the availability of food. And, and, you know, what's that impact. So they've been able to work on that. And so they produce papers they produce algorithms they produce methods, they produce the science they produce videos they produce all of this collateral all of this knowledge. So what we've done is to be able to capture all of that it goes into the Knowledge Hub, we create these knowledge packages around the different areas. And so it's a very large program, you know, 65 activities is a lot because it's agriculture biodiversity climate disasters energy forestry land water ocean urban, you know, anything you can think about we're effectively doing with these organizations. And so the Knowledge Hub is a way that anybody can access that knowledge that has been created through the work program. And at the same time we have another 70 70 projects with Amazon Web Services, Microsoft and Google Earth Engine, plus an American company called Azure ESRI are European company called synergize, you know, so we're working with all of these different entities and so trying to capture all the outcomes is what you were saying, you know, if a unilever or a Pepsi co or someone does something that's good, you know, why don't they take it out to other locations well that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to share that good practice and make everything openly and freely accessible through this Knowledge Hub. So that was built on top of an open source platform from CERN, you know, the part of physics people who did the large Hadron Collider. So they, you know, they have a huge. I mean, they're managing vast swaths of data, and they have a massive partner network. And so they built this that they use this thing called Invinial RDM, and we've just built on top of that. We've now built this Knowledge Hub, which is becoming operational. So I think that gets closest to what you were asking about from our perspective in terms of like accessing, you know, the knowledge and data and information that's coming out of of jail. The last few years, the big buzz has been about digital twins are you involved a lot in the data and the censoring on creating digital twins a lot of cities now are coming up with a digital twin to prepare and actually even just this week that the UN came out and said, you know, one of the biggest things we can do to kind of avoid a lot of death and destruction is early warning systems to get people out into other areas. And they kind of want to not only use the early detection device and censoring and that data but also create a digital twin so that they can find the population and the pathways and where to go and what to do. So it's funny because you and I didn't prepare any questions we didn't share any notes in terms of this discussion, but that's probably one of the biggest areas of my work right now. So I just reviewed a World Economic Forum document on digital twins. And it was very lopsided. And I don't think it's unfair saying that because it was an initial document, but it was a private sector. You know, there's a huge public sector investment in this, you know, if you look at destination earth that's being developed and you have digital twin activities with EU met with European Center for medium range weather forecasting ECMWF with European Space Agency they're all working on these big environmental issues there's about 30 million euros from the European Commission looking at digital twins of the ocean. So I know digital twins from like when I when I worked for the British government a decade ago, and we were working on things like building information models and the built environment they were using digital twins in that environment to look at cities. And unless I'm mistaken it's moved quite considerably in the last three or four years towards more environmental monitoring and using it from that perspective. So, I think that there is a there is a massive shift in this area and it's great to see big public sector investment going into this. Obviously the private sector will create the tools and services the data products and everything that will help, you know, broaden the reach, and maybe even let implement some of the ideas from the public sector. But there's a yes, this is, this is massive so that's one part to what you just said the second part is. So, so this extra general good, good chairs are good, good terrace I can't I don't know how to say his name but you know how I mean. You know, he said that in the next five years we want to have early warning available for everyone in every country around the world. So we've started working a lot closely, more closely with the world meteorological organization WMO where I'm actually hosted that's where where where I work in that building. And the United Nations Office for Disaster Risk Production UNDRR is also now in that building. So they have a center center of excellence between WMO and UNDRR. And so that is looking exactly at this early warning early action. We're also now a partner of something called the risk informed early action partnership, REAP, and also something called the anticipation hub with the Red Cross and a number of other, you know, countries supporting Bangladesh, you know, so there. So yes this early, early warning early action thing is really starting to drive. And I find it intriguing right because 2007. I was part of like some task forces. And we've always been talking about prevention and preparedness versus response and recovery. And we've always talked about how it's so much better for, for, you know, saving money. You know, the return on investment is much better. I'm doing it up front, as well as saving lives and livelihoods. So I don't understand why these things have taken so long. I mean, maybe it's, maybe I've missed something along the way in the last, you know, decade. But anyway, it's good. It's all happening now. There's a big movement. And everyone's like really thinking about how do we push our efforts and our investments towards this direction. And, and I like there are programs like cruise, which is also sponsored by WMO, which is actually doing funding to initiatives on the ground. And they're giving millions of dollars to do these practical initiatives around the hydro met hydrological meteorological arena to deliver against, you know, sort of early warning and early action. So it is a, it's a fast moving area now. And there's a lot more money coming into it. And I think there's a lot more people understanding the necessity to do this, because the figures now for disasters are in the billions of dollars. And there are a lot of lives being lost. So I think that's probably one of the, I mean, I'm going to the global platform for disaster risk reduction next month. And I think that whole early warning early action will be a big, a big theme across that, that whole event. Beautiful. I hope I really hope that we get to see each other in Davos May 22 through the 28 27th, I believe is the annual meeting of the form. I would love to invite you also as well to come by and throw in your, your, your hat in the ring and a little bit and talk and educate us all about about some of the things you're working on, if you can, since we'll be in the same spot again. I'll have a couple of meetings and events going on there as well. Do you have a caravan or a spare bed because several times. It's expensive. Yeah. Craziness trying to find somewhere to stay. Well, because it's. Yeah, so it'll be cheaper. The last time I went to Davos, I think I spoke to one of your own bosses. Al Gore. So I was, I was chatting to Al Gore and they got pulled away because the, I think the president of Japan or someone wanted to speak to him, you know, but it was great because I got to tell him that we have put into practice these digital earth programs in geo we have digital earth. It started with digital earth Australia. And then we took some of the learning and it's something called an open data cube. We took that model to Africa and we created digital earth Africa which is now fully operational and is amazing I'm on the board. And the only male non African on the board, which is a great privilege. We have digital earth Pacific. I'm on the steering committee for that. And we have digital earth America's which is under development. So I got to say to Al Gore, you know, we're actually taking some of your concepts and the ideas and putting this into operation and and developing us all around openness and transparency and accountability using earth observations. And this is great. And if anybody's watching and they have like, I don't know, maybe 150 million dollars. That's what we need to sort of take this stuff to the next level to build out and help the countries, so that it becomes owned by the countries and then they can start to fund it themselves. This is amazing. This has been an amazing journey for me personally with the digital earth initiatives. And I've got to give a big shout out to Brian kilo at NASA, and I did jaguar runs D for D insights and too many. And this one Melissa from Sansa. These are some of the people that have a pleasure of working with and sort of developing these over the last, you know, three, three, four years. I can tell you the money is absolutely there. It's out there and we just need to get the information that you needed and for what you're planning it for which is absolutely fabulous. I've, I've almost pulled out my hair and the past before because we've been talking about some of these things for a long time. And it's like, now that we've experienced a pandemic and Brexit and and crazy American politics and on and on I could just go on with all the craziness going on that we've been shaken awake that there are some better models out there that we should really use and for for our benefit, but their models we say hey we should do this in advance a little bit preparedness a little bit foresight and boy we would realize not only is it a better model but it's a model that can regenerate and sustain itself over time so it's actually I hate to use the word profit profitable because we shouldn't be profiting off of anyone or our world. It's just a model that works a lot better. If we if we kind of are ahead of the game so I totally know what you mean the work we're going to wrap it up fairly soon I have four more questions for you. And one of them and this is why I asked you if you've come to speak in Davos we it'll be different. It's a total different world economic form this this this time around one that's in it's a may which is this different and it's there'll be more less people more more apartments more hotels more things available so hopefully it won't be a big thing but they've also changed the hotel security zone and all that so there's a lot of changes going on there as well some improvements good bad and ugly. But you do the the reason I asked is you do a lot of paying it forward you do a lot of mentoring or you've started to do a lot more than you have in the past. I'd love for you to tell me about that and and and why and and and how that's going and also. I know a lot of people that could really use your your years of wisdom to to get that empowerment that one up to enable them to to fulfill their dreams and vision. So the reason I do is I got a lot of help getting to where I am in my career and people sort of stepped out of their own comfort zone or just made an effort to help me because we go on well or these awesome potential or whatever. And so I feel like it's sort of behoving on me to tell others because you know it's sort of payback for for the support I've had. And so I decided there's a there's a group called women in geospatial and it started as a as an idea by a friend Julia and she brought in a lot of other other women who are also, you know, professional and actual friends, you know, over the years. And so I said, look, I've been doing some mentoring with younger professionals. I'd really like to help younger professional women who you know maybe they're facing my glass ceiling or misogyny or just don't have a platform to express themselves. So I wanted to just have chats, you know, around what I've done and then listen to them. So I do have this kind of 45 minute formula where people come in they say, look, this is what I've done for the last 10 or 20 years depending how old they are. This is what I'm doing now. And this is my aspiration. And the aspiration could be I want to change jobs, it could be, I want to get more involved in a sector, it could be how do I give back, you know, so so they're very like you speak to these people on your broadcast. I speak to these, these younger professionals. And so now I've done, you know, is well over 100. And it's mostly young women, because what's happened is this women in geospatial network, someone went on to like a chat, you know, a slack group and they said I'm going to chat with Steven and he's willing to talk to others and then, then I spoke to them and then they spoke to others and so it's had this kind of Rolling Stone effect and so it's been great and I have learned so much, so much. And there's just the thing that maybe isn't surprising to younger women but certainly was to me, is this kind of like lack of confidence, you know, I speak to women who have two degrees a master's a PhD and 10 years experience and they're like, Yeah, I'm not sure I'm qualified to do this and I'm like, oh man. And I have to explain to them why they're so qualified, so good, so competent, and really just explain to them that they really are brilliant. And so that has been, that has been good and I've seen people go away from it kind of really pumped and then they've come back to me with like this is my letter of application for a job can you review it. This is my CV. I don't really like doing that because that takes a huge amount of time. And I don't have that much time, but some, but I've been able to introduce people who've got job interviews, you know, and the good thing Mark about you and I being older. I'm not saying old but older is that a lot of the people I know now are like CEOs or they're like running NASA Earth Sciences or, you know, I got a lot of very senior level contacts and they're just friends so it's easy for me to say hey look you just give this person 20 minutes of your time or get the right person in your team to help them. And that's something that can mean the world of difference for someone else. But you know for me it's no, it's no big shakes. And so I always say at the end of the call look if you've enjoyed the call if it's been useful, just let someone else know that's the only thing I ask. And it's great. Like I say I'm learning so much and there are so many brilliant young people and that's what gives me hope, you know, because they are really tackling the big issues and they have no baggage, you know, like I was saying I've gone through three three cycles of interoperability and I'm kind of fed up listening to it, you know, because everyone means something different by it. But they don't have that baggage so they've got energy they've got knowledge, they've got enthusiasm you know and so that's kind of what I'm trying to do is just. And also like I have reviewed thousands of CVs and I know, you know, a good cover letter, I know how to respond to a job ad, so I can give them those kind of tips as well so it's a bit of like, I almost feel like a little bit like a big brother to a lot of them. You know the way I'm giving advice, and sometimes you're so I remember some of them called me uncle. I'm not quite ready to be uncle because like I keep thinking I'm younger than I am. But no I really love it. And I think he's been useful and helpful for that. Some of that the cultural thing I think I've been called uncle as well and then brother a lot things like that so. Now I'm a grandpa now I'm a five time grandpa I was just in the US and January 15 my, my middle daughter she actually had her very first baby is wonderful I'm totally in love all over again with this little guy he's so cute. But yeah, I do that this mentoring this paint Ford, a lot as well, and it just comes back tenfold I promise you don't don't ever stop as such a beautiful thing. My group is not a lot of PhDs and masters or anything like that, but it's those who are just starting out on this journey to get into the academic world to get into their new schooling what will they learn and discovering where to do that it's the Aurora fellows and I've also done quite a few and I'll tell you what the ripple effect of them going back of good meetings and saying oh man I had this talk markers to blow my mind. Now I was recently in trying to think where it was. It was in what what in February and bond, I had an Italian Aurora student who was there and she said, hey, I heard your and bond at doing this foresight and this working meeting. I'm here and can we meet I just appreciated your thing it was a fabulous, fabulous experience so and I've had that happen several times so that's, it's well worth it. I've always never disappoint, especially when there's no ulterior motive that you're not, you know, let me charge you for that or my time to valuable. I just make a friendship and and you can find strange people people people expect me to charge money or and I'm like no no no but that's why I'm very strict on the 45 minutes as well. Yeah. Oh yeah. I just come back 10 fold I mean for for me and for them it's it's just it is so nice how it works because the alignment and things that I know nobody, nobody grabbed me and mentored me expect you know Al Gore of course Bill McDonough and many others I've had great mentors don't get me wrong, but really things I didn't learn in school where they says hey Mark I need to tell you this or let's talk about this let me show you this. Yeah, and sometimes that's frustration just to have that knowledge how how the world works or what the models are that we're working on and how to move forward as a great help. Three last questions for you or maybe two I'll keep it to two. If there was one or two messages you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that really had the power to change their life impact their life. What would it be your message. I think for me it's, I mean a lot of people talk about sort of like regenerative and extractive and stuff like that and I'm not really smart enough to get into all that stuff I go back to just simple relationships between people. And so for me, intergenerational respect, working with people younger than you people your age people older than you. I think being able to see sort of issues and opportunities across the spectrum. And just being being able to be have empathy. I think there's quite a lot of missing empathy. And I think if we all try to understand each other a bit more, then we'll get further. So that that's, I mean there are so many people looking at donor economics and circular economy and regenerative agriculture and, you know, they just have to go back and watch past episodes of your, your podcast to get that kind of stuff. I think for me is much more about is people who make or break everything. All the decisions about our planet are being made by people investment decisions have been made by people how to share and access data information and knowledge have been made by people. And I just think having that just taking the time to listen, actively listen to others don't go in and try and put your point across without actually listening to what people are saying to you, before you say what you say. So I think sort of like those those would be my that those would be the things I would advocate for. What have you experienced or learn in this professional journey of yours so far that you would have loved to know from the start. So kind of like, boy, if I'd known that. Most of my guests and even me and so as always boys, it's about the journey I needed that journey, but if there was something is there. Yeah, I mean, I think what for me is is seeing greatness in leaders. There's a lot of people who think they're leaders. And unfortunately, they're not a lot of what they've learned is through books and, and, and actually they're quite the opposite of good leaders there. Anyway, I'm not going to go into that but but seeing the ones that are leaders. And especially the people who are who are not listening to who have good ideas like sort of enabling them. That's something that I wish I'd learned much earlier in my career. I mean, I did. I helped people 20 years ago, you know, there were there were some younger people I worked with to women who were on reception, but they had, you know, college degrees. And I was like, why are they sitting at the front desk doing something that is really not, you know, challenging them and got them both out. And one of them was just profiled by the Royal Geographical Society. And she's now like a senior director in a major organization and I know I had a role to play in and helping her step up in her career. And the other one has become, you know, like a sort of marketing manager in a company. So that's one thing. The second thing which is really bizarre is like just really understanding sort of financial models and how finance really helps everything. I've always understood that and I've been able to raise money and contribute funds to things throughout my entire career. But I think only in the last couple of years, last five years, have I really had this complete understanding of how the whole financial system works and how it feeds in and where it feeds into my work. So that that's probably my biggest learning is, is the kind of the role of finance in sustainability and in sort of longevity of projects and programs. But it sounds really obvious, but it hasn't been obvious for me, it's been a learning curve. Stephen, it's been a sheer pleasure and thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas. That's all my grilling and questioning for you today it's been a sheer pleasure to see you and have you on and have this back and forth discussion, unless there's something you didn't get to say or you would like to ask me. Now it's your chance. I'm finished and I really appreciate it wanted to thank you. What's really sad is we're developing a community of practice for youth. So if there are some young people out there who want to find out more about what we're doing in earth observations and, and sort of come into this, you know, open participatory process. You know, then they're welcome I can put them in touch with some of the team for working on that. There are links at the bottom of the show notes and descriptions so that they can get in touch with you or find a way to get in touch with you and I just really appreciate it's always a pleasure to see you. Let's make it live in Davos. Thank you. Enjoy the chat.