 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Katharine Norr. Today we're talking about eSports Live, returning to in-person events. With me today are Ari Fox and Ben Fox, the principals of GammaCon and the Castino eSports conference. Welcome gentlemen. Great. Thank you. Thank you for having us, Katharine. It's great to be here. We're excited to talk to you again. Right. Yeah. You know, Ari has been here. He's my, the guest that's been on my show the most. So he has that honor and, but we're happy to welcome Ben too. And first of all, Ari, tell us about GammaCon. What is GammaCon? GammaCon is a, well, it really stands for something. It stands for a game arts conference. And at the end of the day, really what it is, it's a, it's a conference about the cultural connection to video gaming. We start with indie games, which is the, which is the art and the creation of the gaming world to start with because without developers, independent developers, we wouldn't have games. We wouldn't have the games that are the popular games that we have today. So, so it really goes to connecting to that, to the cultural attachments that people have to the eSports world and then to the game, video gaming world, but overall it's everything. It's not just a creation aspect of it, but how do you express yourself as a gamer? You know, can you come in as a, as a cosplayer and dress up as like the character that's behind me from Valorant? Or can you come and, and, you know, you know, as you're, and play with your friends and connect with them? It also includes other things besides just video gaming itself. We have Magic the Gathering tournaments, eSports tournaments. We have influencers that come in and talk. We recently just had a game of con in August at Agua Caliente. We had Victoria, Victoria Taylor, Veronica Taylor. Sorry, she was the voice of Ash Ketchum. But Ash, Ash Ketchum and Pokemon are anime products. But that is also part of the culture of a video gamer. It's the connecting to everything that millennials and Gen Z's have to connect to starting with video gaming and then branching it out from there. Okay. Ben, why don't you tell us about the Casino eSports conference? Well, we started the Casino eSports conference over five years ago. We're going on our sixth year actually. And today is the, is the day actually where we're announcing the fact that we're going into one on the, I'm going to kill myself here, which is actually for our sixth one, which is going to be March 23rd and 24th in Las Vegas coming up 2022. Okay. We just finished one actually. And the purpose or the way, the reason why we created the Casino eSports conference in the first place was because of the entire kind of philosophy behind gamers and the gaming community and basically all of the new generations now. I mean, the most important thing that we learned while doing Game of Con and, you know, all the other things related to gaming was that this is a community driven entertainment, you know, offering that gaming, that video gaming, whether it's, you know, VR or any form, even if somebody plays Candy Crush as a gamer. Okay. So, you know, from that to even more competitive gaming, which we call eSports, which by the way makes up a, not the biggest portion of the video gaming culture, but yet a lot of people sort of gravitate towards that. We felt that we needed to create an event that teach, specifically it started as the Casino industry, how to sort of, you know, start working together with the video gaming industry and culture. And that was missing. And a lot of people didn't understand how to, you know, merge the two. And I heard one of your speakers before on another show that you had done. And they mentioned that at this point right in time, it's very hard to get both the corporate world to really actually understand the video gaming world and the culture and how to monetize or make some kind of connection to make it work for them. And my brother and I have spent a lot of time, energy and sort of collecting a lot of information to be able to help and people to be able to help facilitate the future of the casino in general. And we feel that without this component that it's, there will be a great detriment in, I should say, the wagering or gambling world and or just in the entertainment casino industry. So we felt it was necessary to put on a show where we could, you know, sort of help people get started in just that and approaching and getting in. And we've come very far since our first event and COVID kind of really made it difficult for us. The last one that we did, we had to do a hybrid event, but we actually pulled it off and we were very happy about that. And now we're going into our next one. Hopefully it will be packed and live for the most part. Well, you know, and that's really what we're here to talk about today is that idea of going after all this time where we've, you know, done everything on virtually. How do you go to a live event? I mean, how is that really happening now? Ari, what are your thoughts on that? Well, you know, we had, we did, as I said, we did the one inaugural client in August. It was the height of Delta in August. There were, you know, Palm Springs as it is in the summertime is like, people have cleared out because it's 120 degrees. It's pretty much an oven. But we all, we followed all the CDC guidelines. Everybody wore masks. They were six foot distancing. And then there's other ways of doing things as well. Some of the other B2B events are using an app called clear. Where you can put down your vaccinated status or a, a negative test result. So that will enable you to get into the conference and they give you a little wristband and you wear that at the conference so that everybody knows that you're, you know, you're either negative for a test or that you had the vaccine. At this point though, you know, the pandemic is in my opinion, I think we're hearing less and less about it in the mainstream media and the mainstream news. Because there's only at this last I checked was, which was a week or two ago, there's only 66 million people in the United States that are remaining unvaccinated. And I guarantee you if you go on that and check, see how many people who are unvaccinated, that number is probably declined or gone down. Yeah. So, I mean, we're kind of at a point, I think we're, we're going to be okay. And I think, and I believe I know that, you know, going into the next year in 2022, these are going to be very safe. I was just at an event in Atlantic City Monday and Monday and Tuesday. So, and everyone had the risks and you have to put your QR code and they give you that wristband and everyone's been vaccinated. So, where is the virus going to go? It can't. So I think that we're sort of turning this corner and in a lot of ways it's the new normal that you would wear a mask, but we're all cognizant of the fact of not just now COVID, but also wearing flu season. So people will wear their masks for flu season. It gives us that other opportunity to realize that you're not, you know, you can always catch something, but if you want to take that extra step, you know, we've gotten used to wearing masks. It's not an unusual thing. I agree. Yeah. You know, Hawaii, we have a 71% vaccination right now. And I think we'll start having more live events than, you know, things are going to open up a lot more. And, you know, hopefully people will be more comfortable flying. But, you know, let me ask you, Ben, is there still room for hybrid events now that people have gotten used to it? You know, do you want to offer that option? Or do you want to say, Hey, you've got to come here. Otherwise you'd go get the opportunity. No, I think staying in that second half staying in that mindset where you are just strictly having bodies show up to a location is not. Will not exist in the future. I think there's nothing but this. So if anything, it's forced our hand in trying to come up with a way to have somebody in, you know, halfway around the world be able to attend event without having to get on a plane anyway. And that's important because we are a one world sort of society and we're actually moving more and more towards that. So it is important. They're both important. I mean, on the one hand, it's very important to press the flesh. You know, it always has been. And in this case, bump a fist, you know, because people just don't want any other people's terms. So I can understand that there's always that aspect, but there's also the informational side, which they do need to get. And when we ran our last event, we videotaped and live streamed everything, even, even at our own expense and cost to do it. Because it's all at the end of the day, eventually they need to show up and meet that purse. Okay. It really do. There's nothing like sitting across from somebody face to face and, you know, seeing their facial expressions or anything else like that. So you're going to have both and the people that can adapt to both are going to find that they're not only, and they not attract more attendees, but they're also going to be in a situation where, you know, the new, the new people that want to participate in these events are so used to this kind of format that they're not going to do anything else. I mean, our kids, the last two years have been doing virtual school, you know, and they don't like it. And eventually, you know, they go and they meet their friends on a weekend or something like that. And they hang out together with each other, even during COVID that was happening. So, you know, the generations that are emerging, they're still going to expect this same kind of behavior. Sure. And, you know, what's really interesting is that my, me and my partner for North sports risk management, we did, we attended, well, she attended in person event, an event in Virginia and I, we gave a presentation and I was virtual and it worked out really well. I think we're going to, it allows events to have presenters from all over the world and, but also have that opportunity for people to be in person. Now, Ari, last year, you had the virtual reality component to the EC. Right. What did you think about doing that versus doing live versus having just, you know, kind of the regular zoom type thing? Well, I think what we had there was, was, I liked it. It was very interactive. We had some issues. Our company that we were using was sort of a, only a year or two old, but there were a lot of companies that were also just forming because of the pandemic. And so we did have some people dropping out of the, out of the matrix and they're like floating in the air, things like that that happened. But I loved the ability to walk around as an avatar, to go to the fishing hole and have a conversation and meet people that way. It was very, from all the experiences that I had being on other virtual conferences, it definitely had a better impact. However, that still does not replace the human interaction that you could have because you're dealing with an avatar. You can hear the person's voice. You can see them dance. You can see them fish. You can see them do all the things, but everybody can do that same thing. So we're not individualized. It's just the avatars have this ability and functionality to do the, do funny things or act weird or jump on a, jump on a stage or jump on a table and, you know, you know, do that stuff. So it's a, it's a great opportunity to, I think it was the, it was, it was above what all the other virtual conferences that I had attended that year had done. And we needed to do that because as, as we are connected to the video gaming world, we have to have that as part of our, as part of our connection to that world. I think if anything, the pandemic moved us in a place that pushed us to a, this hybrid idea that pushed us to much more of the concept or you've probably been hearing the word metaverse in, you know, a lot. It's gotten us to this place of that ready player one movie that we saw in 2016 by Steven Spielberg. It's gotten us to more of that place. And that's part of the culture. That's part of the integration and social abilities of that cult of the video gaming culture that we're not going to see go away. That's going to stay. That's inevitable. And that's, yeah. Yeah. And you know, Ari, that, that conference was very memorable to me, probably more memorable than almost any conference I've ever attended because it was really cool for the very first time and struggling to figure it out, but to go into the virtual environment in my avatar, then to speak on a panel and then to go fishing with fatality and you, and you know, learn how to do virtual fishing and chat. And that was really fun and memorable. And, but on the other hand, I am kind of anxious to meet people in person. And I kind of envy those people that are at those conferences in person, because I know they're really having fantastic engagement. Now, then what advice would you give to event planners when they're looking about going back to in person events, whether it's an esports tournament or whether it's some kind of other event. Well, I have to say from the gaming perspective or at least from the events that we were on from Game of Con. I mean the, the current population and I'm going to have to say if gamers, which you know, the average age is like 35, right? So now they're getting older now way older. So I mean, and that being considered that general, you know, without making too many sort of, you know, just like pigeonholing them or anything else like that, that cultural concept is like already said, they're already very aware. They grew up sort of in a pandemic. So they're aware of how to behave, what to act, what to do, what to expect. And so from their perspective, when you have live events, we find it's not as difficult as it is from the business standpoint event. And I've told you this before I was speaking to you about it, the companies themselves that are sort of being very conservative about how they send their people, what they send them to, and everything else like that is what is sort of the stumbling block or the slow down in, in what we see as far as business going forward and, and you know, aggressing even more. But what I'd say event planners are people that are, you know, wanting to do what they normally do or it worked for them in the past is, you know, get with the program because it's not, this is not going away. Learn how to do it or speak to people that have already done it and try to incorporate it in some way and figure it out. It's not seamless. It has problems. I mean, the biggest issue that we have, I know, you know, you described just before about going into the VR. It was a three, it was a 3D environment that technically could have been VR, which is really kind of where we need to head. But you still need the live events, even with VR, you will still need them. I mean, you know, everybody speaks to their parents or their friends, their relatives on Zoom or link or Skype or something like that. We're used to that. But, but there's going to come a point, oh, what are you visiting? Oh, so you have to make that visit. There's just, it's just the way it is. But we do, but the good news is, I mean, now we have an extra tool. So now we can progress even faster because now we can communicate with each other in an okay way that's pretty close to reality, but not yet there. And it'll take years before that happens. That's where we get into the metaverse conversation is that, you know, you can then jump into a metaverse with your family and you can, you know, we'll have body suits and you'll be able to touch and feel and, you know, all that stuff. So, you know, it's kind of, you know, I, I, you know, I want to get back to the thing about live events though, Catherine, because I don't know if I've ever told you this, but we have had at the Game of Concept, we've been running since 2015, three marriages come out of three people, three different couples met at our events. There were two of them, I think were actual exhibitors and people who participated as exhibitors. And one were people who came as attendees, but we had three marriages come from the Game of Concept. So that speaks volumes as to why people will eventually need to come out and be in an in-person event. And like I said, the Agua Caliente where we did it, the peak of a delta, we did get a very, very good turnout, which is, which is, which says a lot about people. They're starting it like you. They don't want to be stuck at home anymore. They want to go out. They want to be with people because we're social. We are social animals at the end of the day. That's part of our DNA. There's nothing you can do to get rid of that. Right. But from an operation standpoint, people are still, the people who are putting on events are still kind of in the dark a little bit. It's very hard to do. They don't really know. I mean, look, we did that, that 3D event and I have to tell you, we took two days and countless videos and tutorial time just to get people to move their joysticks and move their characters. I mean, and we're dealing with people that really don't even know how to delete an app on their phone. So I mean, you know, it may have taken you a little bit. You felt a little too much time to learn how to fish or something like that. But compare that to the people that are, you know, we had to deal with that work in their 70s, you know, or, or, you know, whatever it's a big challenge. You know, so they, and I have to say that the technology itself is still infantile in the sense that there are too many movements and that was very hard to translate to, to, it needs to be more universal, more user friendly, more, all those other things have to come into play. But you know what, we've got to give it time. This is just the beginning and it's the beginning of something new and exciting. And there are a lot of people that are resisting it and they want to go back to the old ways. They want to just only do what they're, what they're used to doing because that's their model. But this is the future and they need to embrace it and figure out how to work with it. Right. And I will note that I have met lifelong friends at conferences and conventions. Some of my favorite people that I've ever met have been someone I've met at an international conference that I've, you know, only seen in that environment that we go to all these different conferences all over the world. And so it's an important environment for me because I know how important it is to meet those conference friends that are, that share that same interest. Now I understand before we wrap up, Ari, I understand you went to an event and, and actually were quoted in many newspapers. Associated press, actually. Oh, right, right. Okay. Tell us about that, Ari. You know, I, it was a conference that it's the, it's East Coast Gaming Congress, but it's about, it was a, it's a, it's a casino conference. And there were companies there that are also Eastport companies, publicly traded Eastport companies. And really what the quote was all about was, you know, to understand or make the casinos understand that they crunch numbers all day long. They have people that crunch numbers. They're 2.7 billion gamers or 3.5 billion gamers. And there's a 10% of the esports industry. That's 10, you know, 10% is competitive gamers. It's numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. And it's also watching and observing young people and what they do and how they interact with the products that are being placed out into the, you know, for video gaming and esports and wagering on esports. And what my, what was about, what I was sort of saying is that you know them so well, meaning the corporations know the younger generation so well. The problem is the younger generations don't know you. And that is a problem because at the end of the day, younger people want to trust the companies that they're working with. They don't want to know, they don't want to work with a company that is out, you know, they vilify guys like, like, like ESOS, you know, they vilify guys that become and make it these billionaires. You know, they want to know that when you started your company, you did it from the heart and that you were doing it as a way to connect with them on a cultural level. And that's why GamerCon is going to be a very big name. It is already. I mean, a lot of people on gamers know about it, but it's going to just continue to grow because that started as grassroots. It started as we're doing this for the community. We're not doing this for our own benefit. We're doing it because we want the community to thrive and to grow. Perfect. Okay. So Ben, before we wrap up, what is coming up for GamerCon and the EC? Well, you know, we are goal, the fact that R is on the East Coast and I'm on the West Coast is not a mistake. We're actually trying to develop. Sort of a incorporated universal idea of this so that whether on the West or East, you can attend to GamerCon and participate in everything like that. So we have our GamerCons are right now we're scheduling them that will be posted up soon. As far as the dates, but I would check or just go to the GamerCon website, which is just GamerCon G A M E A or R. And then C O N for conference.com and check out when the dates are or at least register either on there or on the Facebook. And then we can basically get you the information as we get it. And as far as the CC goes, we're taking a different approach this year. We're doing it a little earlier in the year. We don't want to ride alongside of the other casino events that are going on, which are traditionally in September, October. So traditionally, we were always right after Labor Day, but we're moving this year because. We feel that in, you know, if we, if we do it closer to the middle of the year or the beginning of the year, it actually will give a lot of people the ability to get something moving and done before the end of the year. Yeah, that's a great idea. Anything to add Ari. Yeah, so you can find information on the casino e-sport conference at casino e-sport. And then no, and then C O N S.com. There are some tentative dates that they may change that are up there now. We're working on a venue currently in Atlantic City for, for GamerCon to come back as that's where we started. And Ben is working on some, some, some venues for GamerCon on the West Coast in California, maybe even Las Vegas. So we may have a lot of game of cons coming up and we're really excited about it, not just that we plan on doing a lot other things with GamerCon in the very near future. Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for joining us today. Ben and Ari. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. And so thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Next week, my guest will be Jason McIntosh of GG circuit. See you then.