 a very good afternoon to all our attendees. We are here at the next episode of Resilience series, showcasing the resilience of some of our EV manufacturing players. And today, we have with us three interesting players from the industry. We have Raja Gayam, founder and CEO of Gayam Motors. We have Indra Veer Singh of EVH and we have Deepak M.V. from founder of Ethrio Motors. Thank you gentlemen for joining us today at this afternoon. And today we are going to discuss about the new policy which has come in place about India declaring its intention to make all your vehicles electric by 2030 and how these manufacturers are making the difference in this space. We all know electric vehicles have created a lot of buzz over the last few years with air pollution and climate change becoming burgeoning environmental problems. It has become imperative to come up with sustainable environment friendly solutions for public and private transportation. Additionally, PM Narendra Modi led government's aspirational goal of selling only electric vehicles by 2030 with a large percentage of EVs on the road has paved the way for EV companies in India today. So today these companies are not just determined to fly, just fly the Atman-Irbar Bharat flag. They are also going to see India as an exporter of EVs in the coming years. So welcome gentlemen. I am happy to hear your thoughts about the growing ecosystem in this space. Thank you for joining us today. So we will first start with you, Raja, talking about your journey in the EV space. How much time you have spent, your idea of taking the company global, if you could give us a brief. So we are an electric mobility company based out of Hyderabad. So our primary product is an electric freewheeler. Our customers mostly include last mile delivery services like transporters of Amazon, BigBasket, Flipkart, Delhivery, all the last mile delivery service companies. And most of these companies are shifting to electric because it makes economic sense in addition to being environmentally friendly for them to make the switch to electric vehicles. And so last few years it was mostly pilots and deployments in one or two cities. So now we are expanding to multiple cities with the same clients. In addition to this, we also started exporting our products to countries like UK, France, Portugal, Japan, Lebanon and Uganda as well. So there is a significant market in the electric freewheeler space. So when we produced our vehicles, it was mostly for the developing countries. But we are surprisingly seeing a lot of traction coming in from developed countries who also require an efficient means of last mile delivery. So that is our current progress in terms of deployments. And in future we are planning to deploy our vehicles throughout the country. Okay, great. So in the week, if you could give us a brief about the state at what stage the startup is in right now. In the week, can you hear us? I think there are some connectivity issues at the end. So coming back to you, you have plans to take the company's operations to UK and Europe. So tell us about the international expansion plans. And like you mentioned that it's not just developing countries which are opening up to the developed market also, who are taking this forward. So how has been the experience like if we compare developing and developed countries both? So when we produced our product, it was primarily for developing countries, countries like India, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Indonesia. So prior to coming into electric freewheeler, we had the experience in the freewheeler segment petrol and C&J freewheeler segment that we exported some of these vehicles to countries like Bangladesh, Indonesia, Ethiopia. So based on that market feedback, we realized that the petrol or C&J segment is a pretty saturated segment and we took a conscious decision to get into the electric vehicle segment where we believed that we have a chance of becoming a market leader in that segment. So this was around 2014 also, we took this decision and there were two parts that we could take. So the first one was getting into the E-Rickshaw segment, which is dominated by mostly Chinese companies. Second is getting into an electric freewheeler segment that you can create your own market and try to replace the traditional auto rickshaws which are Bajaj or Piajio diesel vehicles as well as petrol freewheelers. So with that in mind, we set out producing a vehicle which was meeting the customer requirements. They wanted a vehicle which had speeds of about 55 kilometers per hour. They wanted vehicle which could accelerate from 0 to 30 in about six seconds or so. So with that feedback, we produced an electric freewheeler that was meeting the customer requirements. But what we realized was at that point of time, we used to import most of the components. The issue was we didn't have control over the warranty as well as price of those components. So we started indigenizing the components one by one. And by 2016 also, we had a product which was meeting the customer requirements as well as which was in the price point where we could sell these vehicles in mass. So we approached some of the last mile delivery companies because it was much more easier for us to get into that segment and also it was easier to set up charging and stopping infrastructure. So our first customer was big basket. So once that happened, people started seeing our vehicles on the road and other customers also started adapting our vehicles. Apparently, we had inquiries from various locations like Uganda, Japan from the UK and Europe. So we recently got our product certified for Europe as well. So now we have been able to expand to multiple locations and during the pandemic that was extremely helpful because if there was one particular area where we were seeing a lot of demand, it was coming in from Europe because financing and all are a started problem there. And that was helpful for us during the time of pandemic. Interesting. So I think Deepak has also joined us. Deepak, can you hear us? Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah. Hi, Deepak. So Deepak, if you could introduce our to our audience about the growth of ATRIO in the last few years and where do you stand currently in the ecosystem? Thanks, Munita. So ATRIO started in 2017 and we started with a different model. So ATRIO is not a typical EV company. 2017 is when we started and we started with a conversion of an ice vehicle. So essentially, we started by taking an existing ice vehicle. In this case, it was a Maluti Alto, which we took in 2017 and successfully made it into fully electric, got a certification from ARAI and pioneered the space of how do you, you know, in a standardized, organized way, how do you create a conversion of the existing ice vehicle? So that's how ATRIO started from being a conversion expert. Of course, you know, as a startup, we also had our big learnings where we maybe, you know, where we began with a passenger car segment and we converted Alto, Wagoner, Desire and also introduced these vehicles in the market. And this was a time when we were the third company after Tata's and Mahindra's to put a certified electric car on the road. And but when we introduced, we understood that passenger car EV adoption is going to take some time. There were various challenges. And that's where we shifted our focus sharply and took various strategic decisions to focus on the intracity logistic segment. And we then picked up a Tata Ace, the successful Tata Ace. So we picked up Tata Ace, made it into electric. And today, that particular retrofitted ELCV has become our, you know, our foundation of our journey. Today, this vehicle is running across the e-commerce logistics ecosystem. It runs across five cities with all the major e-commerce players like Amazon, BigPass, Cape, Flipkart, IKEA and so on and so forth. And this success essentially helped us in creating the next level of growth for us by foring into the new electric vehicle space. So while we started as a conversion expert, today we have transformed into also a creator of new electric vehicles. And we are in the process of launching new electric vehicles in three wheelers and electric bikes in the coming few months, by cycles in the coming few months. Okay. So that's been the only manufactured by you. Yeah. So what we did is today, we have a portfolio of vehicles right from a 75 kg to a 700 kg payload. So this gives us a portfolio of EVs, which are tailor made for the intracity logistic segment. And this is what we are bringing in our focus is to electrify intracity logistics. And today in the B2B space, we work with all the majors. And we are taking this story forward to now introduce our new electric vehicles in three wheeler space and by cycle space. So that's where we are as an organization. So I think Indavir has also logged in. Can you hear us, Indavir, now? Yes, yes, hi. Okay. So Indavir, if you could give us, give our audience a brief about what the company does and where it is right now in the growth segment. Yeah, hi. So EVH started off 2014. You know, we have been a poorly mobility tech company. Our focus is on creating technologies and, you know, all of our genesis is currently to create a strong research and development setup. And that's what we did over the last five years. And in that frame, you know, we were able to put together a great team of aerospace engineers working for us and create a structure which is lightweight height. And now as we move forward, we are closing in on our product launch in the next couple of months. For the 40 electric vehicles, you know, our focus, that's what we have been up to. It has taken us, you know, six to seven years to develop this particular vehicle. We are proud of the technology and that's what we have developed. Everything has been poorly developed in the last couple of months. And that makes us as EVH a very unique proposition because perhaps in the larger part of Southeast Asia, having such a, you know, scope of technologies and products which are ground built in the market. So Raja, my question is to all three of you, when we talk about the outlook for EVH space, has it changed post COVID-19? What are your thoughts on that? So I think COVID has accelerated the adoption of EV in some of the countries, especially Europe. We see a lot of demand coming in post COVID compared to the situation that existed pre COVID. The number of orders has increased. The only issue was there was disruption in terms of production due to supply chain issues that we face during the pandemic. But post that, we see a lot of demand coming in, mostly in the last mile delivery space, because that is one space where it is proven that it is economically cheaper to operate an electric vehicle compared to a petrol or diesel vehicle. Okay, sure. Yeah, so Puneetha, you need to take a step back and understand the adoption of EVs is a subset of some a lot of technology convergences that are taking together. And I believe it is the right time this next two to three years when we will see mass adoption of EVs globally. One side, we have the consumer behavior that is changing and which has been shot forward because of COVID because people millennials first time saw blue skies during the pandemic. So that has given rise and the millennials Gen Y, Gen Z now have a mindset to go clean and sustainable. So that is the consumer behavior changing. Apart from that, the battery packs are going to get more economical as we move forward. Technology is evolving at a very fast pace. We are akin to what the smartphone era was when the ICT convergence has happened in the mid 2000s. We are in the same era for electric mobility. And we'll see the battery prices coming down, electric motors becoming more and more efficient, control engineering and other engineering aspects are getting more and more solvable, which makes putting a vehicle together far more easier. And you know, it's going to help, you know, propel the affordability of EV. Until five years back, the only EV we had was $75,000 Model S, you know, or $100,000 Model X, you know, so which is changing and the results are there to be seen globally. You see Volkswagen is coming in with the ID for and the trend has changed. Instead of going from, you know, high performance ultra luxury cars, they're going to the affordable segment. That's what they're targeting with the new EVs. You know, so, so these technological convergences, plus the the COVID factor, the pandemic, of course, supply chain will be issue at least next three, four months still, it'll take some time to stabilize. But once that happens, I think we are in the era of smartphones, you know, for EVs. I mean, you can compare it directly. That that's my view on this. So according to you, the consumer is also starting to wake up to the distribution that vehicle electrification is going to bring about. Yes, yes. So Deepak, what are your thoughts on it? Yeah, so, I think, taking forward with what we said is that, specifically on the India story, I would like to highlight that TV has been a buzzword for long. And while we, while we heard, you know, how did across the ecosystem with various stakeholders, the real adoption on the ground was still a big challenge. There were multiple bottlenecks. I think with COVID happening, and suddenly, you know, the whole action kind of seizing. And now when we see the new reality emerging, we definitely see that EV is definite is is there now, the movement of reality is has started for the country. I say that because of two factors, like in the reset one on the consumer side, the customer side. Of course, when I talk about EVs, we have to be very conscious that EV adoption story is going to be segmental. In terms of you need to look at different segments to see which segment will grow faster, which will be the who will be the for them in terms of EV adoption. So is it going to be passenger car? Perhaps not passenger car. If you see the penetration till last year, it was still, I think 0.5 or 0.5 below a 1% level. If you look at two wheelers, it is slightly above 1% or in and growing faster. Now, if you look at three willers, informal figures, because three willers, we have a very strange market in India where electric three willers have informally overtaken the, the ice or the normal market of three willers in the country. So what I'm saying is on one side, we see different kind of segments having a different kind of pace in terms of EV adoption. On the other side, we see the customers. So for example, Raja was talking about the e-commerce segment. So e-commerce today the mandates of the Amazons or the flip cards of the world, the big baskets of the world is very significant. The basket already has a flip which is electrification of their fleet is beyond the 10%. Amazon handmade firm commitments, flip card is very easy because we work with all of them. So you see action thickening in terms of intracity logistics, whether it is a cargo three wheeler or a four wheeler. So you are seeing consumers, customers, whether it's business customers, whether it is a retail customer slowly coming to the EV world now. On the other side, like has been mentioned earlier, we already see the total cost of ownership because see the EV story is going to only take off if the product in terms of our technology competence in terms of reliability in terms of the total cost of ownership for the end consumer, whether it's a business customer or a retail customer. So the total cost of ownership competitiveness is significantly increasing with diesel prices going up on one side, BS6 being expensive on on the other side, the battery prices coming down, localization happening, India emerging as a manufacturing center slowly and it will take some time, take a long time. But India is slightly now slowly emerging. So all these factors along with the government support, we see definitely the, you know, the balance is tilting towards EVs in some segments where these segments, EVs will become a market leader in these segments. Three wheeler is going to be a four wheeler in here. So according to you, I mean, when we compare the kind of auto wheelers, whether it's three wheeler, two wheeler or four wheeler, three wheeler is the ones which is going to rule the space. Definitely, if you see the metric, if I say the ratio of normal vehicles versus EV vehicles or EV as a percentage of the total market in that segment, three wheelers will be the leader without a doubt. Okay, so Raja and Inder, do you buy into that? Yeah, so, you know, Deepak already mentioned that there is traction on the three wheeler front and you cannot deny the fact, you know, however, a contrary view that we have is, as an industry in India, we don't have reliable four wheelers on road. So it's going to be a coexistence of all the vehicle segments that will work out. At some places, they're going to be the two wheelers that are going to be more cost efficient. And we need to understand, we are in the logistic sector. The factor over here would be cost per delay. So, you know, there would be a system of data, you know, and we have put our money on a four-wheel, so we definitely believe there is a vacuum in this particular second in and there are decent volumes to to offset that off, you know, if you look at the small commercial vehicle segment, it's almost a half a million vehicle market in India right now. Electrifying that market is a huge opportunity. And just to add to what Induvi said, in fact, that's exactly the opportunity which we latched on to, I mean, of course, Induvi and EVH is doing it in a altogether different level and scale. What we did is we took the most successful product of this segment that is and electrified it even before the OEMs could do that and bring in. So today, in the electric small truck segment, you know, we have perhaps the maximum number of vehicles running across the country. And that's where Induvi is very right that this segment has the potential to also explore going forward. Yeah. Rajav, which segment according to you is going to see the maximum traction? I'm in the segment which we always knew that it would see the maximum traction. So we started off in 2016 with our product and we see that everyone is moving towards this segment at this point of time. So that validates our belief that was there about five, six years ago. And since we were an early player in that segment, we have been able to indigenize most of the technologies and bring it to a price point and performance level, where it makes economic sense and as well as we are able to provide a durable product to most of our customers. So three wheeler is the segment we would continue to be in. Okay, okay. So coming to the manufacturing side of it, since all three of you know a lot about the space and already into it. So has the manufacturing process changed? I mean, is it now more robotized? Or has it simplified requiring less labor? Give us some insight into that. Uh, so automation is is a phase wise thing that we have taken up. So compared to when we started off, there is a bit of automation, semi automation that we have done so that the dependence on dependence on the problem with people is some sometimes they are available, sometimes they are not and a lot of things affect your production. So you want to move your supply chain available supply chain availability from dependence on people to more of a process oriented kind of mechanism. So going forward, I think there will be a lot more automation, but when it comes to testing and the tuning of the vehicle, I think there is human dependence and it'll continue to be that way for at least the next five to 10 years. Okay. Okay. Sure. So in the video, do you think is it gonna create much more jobs or is it gonna be more robotized? I think, you know, I have a pretty much different approach to manufacturing as compared to a standard we, you know, and that's what makes EVH different as a company. We didn't only spend time making the vehicle, we have spent a lot of time on the processes as well. So that's a bit about what we are doing. It's different. We need to understand that the approach to buying vehicles is going to change. It is already there. We pride in ourselves of having co created our vehicles with our customers, you know, the trend currently is you have a single platform mass manufacture it and hope that with volumes with scale comes economies of scale, you know, that's the whole price of automotive manufacturing till now, you know, you see the big three they make numbers annually, which is equivalent to India's car production. There's just a single model selling. So that is the whole premise of how automotive industry works, you know, but we need to understand and that's what we learned over two years. We just did not research on what the vehicle will do, what the technology will do. We also put the center of our company as the consumer, the customer, you know, we have the fleet operator on one end, and then the end end user, you know, which could be, you know, digital commerce platforms, you know, FMCG companies. And when you analyze the requirement of each of them, it will be separate. Somebody supplying white goods would need a different set of vehicles. Somebody supplying consumer products, they would be different on the digital platforms would have a different requirement, you know, and that suffices all these needs. So it's a trade off for the customers. And customers these days are more demanding. They would need highly customizable vehicles as we move forward, you know, and our focus is to create one by design a platform which is highly modular to focus on creating micro factories, which can create agile manufacturing systems. And that's a India first, we are bringing our batch sizes one on our production lines, you know, and you know, so so create micro factories which will have small number of semi automated operations with highly skilled manpower. The auto plants of the past used to run into customers for each customer. So that is the future of manufacturing. Okay, I tried. Is this better now? Hello. Is this better? Yeah. Yeah. So the point I'm trying to make is customers who need highly customized products in the future. And we need to create agile manufacturing systems. And that's what we are creating. We are trying to create small micro factories, where we'll have semi automated operations, small number of people with highly skilled process operations, you know, that is what our take on manufacturing is. And this is set to change. And I can spend more time one, you know, because that's what we do essentially. But, you know, the old model of mass manufacturing is going to change in a huge way. And Corona only helped us. I think we lost in the week's voice in between. He has finished, I think. Yeah. So Deepak coming to you, what are your thoughts? Am I audible? Yeah. So Deepak coming to you, I mean, when we compare the automation versus having jobs and manual requirements in this space, what are your views on this? So I would subscribe to what Indra we said earlier, I think that's the philosophy which is there internally in terms of one in terms of see automation versus manual is definitely a question where as the industry evolves as the organization evolves. So for example, for us as you do, we started with assembly, we have gone into manufacturing today, we are looking at a, you know, spread out manufacturing process, we work very closely with our vendors. And we are looking at having this kind of a micro factory concept, not not when we are not implemented yet. But we definitely today have our manufacturing facilities spread across south and north of the country. So we also want to be closer to the customer, we want to bring down the cost, we want to optimize it, we want to make it a modular manufacturing process. So those are the basic principles on which we are building a manufacturing capability as we go forward. The second thing I think what in the we want in the wheel wonderfully mentioned is TVs, unlike ice, I think needs a fundamentally customer centric mindset more deeply integrated into the design of the product. So that's where you know, let me talk about our ELCV, which is based on the data ace. So when we build a product, this product could do a range of 150 kilometers or so. And that's when we realize and the cost of the vehicle was also because you understand that the range is also a determinant or decided by the battery you have in the vehicle, especially in a fixed battery kind of a system. We realized that we had given customers something they didn't need a typical e-commerce logistics players today are running our vehicles for 60 to 70 kilometers. So we realized either we tell the customers to kind of increase the usage by deploying the vehicle twice, or we build a variant where the back the range is brought down and optimized. And the vehicle cost is also optimized to suit the needs of the customer. So this is where we are creating products which are heavily customized to the ground level application, whether it's a three wheeler, whether it's a retrofitted ELCV. So the idea behind us to create products which are more tailor made for the application, then that's where the real success for the because unlike a diesel vehicle, or a typical ice vehicle, you can go anywhere and refuel. Even the cost optimization, the convenience to the customer and the entire ecosystem enablement is very critical. The other part about manufacturing is today many organizations are moving towards in-house manufacturing of the company. So right from, you know, a few years back where everything like Raja mentioned earlier, mostly the components were imported from other geographies. And today, we are looking at indignation. And I think I'm very happy to share that majority of the industry is moving towards 100% localization. Of course, there are some elements, some elements which still India has a long way to go to localize like the self manufacturing. That's where we are seeing the initial action. But otherwise, it is definitely a move towards from importing from sourcing to locally sourcing, and now to internally or in-house manufacturing. So that's also a trend which will create larger organizations, larger OEMs, and create finally a product which will be tailor made for the, you know, the customers. So as we carry on with our discussion, we're getting a lot of audience questions here, and as well as Facebook live. So one of the initial questions we have got from Deepak Yadav is if Aitriyo is looking for any kind of franchising or distributorship? Yeah, so that's a wonderful question to us because while we have started right now with the B2B model, our B2B model where we are directly dealing with our customers and selling or leasing the vehicles directly to the customers. Going forward right now, in fact, we are in the process of finalizing dealerships, we are scouting dealerships across key states in North and South of India. So we are looking at our dealer channel where we will be placing our products, whether it's a new electric three wheeler or a converted EELCV or electric bicycle. So we're looking at dealerships across the country. Yes. What's the distribution model for you, Raja and Indavir? Sorry, I couldn't hear you. What's the distribution model you are following at Gaia Motors? The distribution model at Gaia Motors? I think Raja's video has pleased Indavir if you could share. Yeah, am I audible? Yeah. Okay. So fundamentally, a lot of things are changing. Consumer behaviors are changing again. You know, distribution ship will also change. So we will not have traditional distributors or dealer partners, which is a traditional model, you know, we are trying to create a hybrid structure so that we can optimize the value that is created for each distributor. And this is the biggest problem in the current slowdown, you know, the viability of dealers has become a big question mark. Even for the traditional ways, you know, they are moving systems, policies so that they can support the distributors. So that would be a big change that is expected in how vehicles are distributed and retailed in the coming few years. We're trying to create a quasi distribution structure, you know, and we are still working on how to optimize it and create value for our channel partners, you know. So that's what we are looking at as a company. Raja, are you back? Can you hear us now? Okay, we'll move to the next question from Mr. Manoj Kumar. So Manoj is asking what is the future of PCS and swapping stations in India and how you take that Tesla coming to India in 2021, where Alon has confirmed, will that disturb the Indian market here for India made EVs? Swapping stations are the way forward, especially in the passenger segment where there is the driver's travel usually anywhere between 60 to 50 kilometers on a daily basis. And that could be a huge step forward in basically enabling mass adoption of electric vehicles. So to be extremely frank, Tesla is welcome here. The only thing is they are in a completely different segment. They started off with luxury cars and then started coming down into the coming down in the pyramid. India poses a lot of challenges. So when you look at companies like Ford or GM, which are usually successful in many countries, but they have faced a lot of issues in India. So they'll have to probably get used to the Indian market as well as the way of working here. And we wish them all the success so that we see more electric vehicles on board. In terms of threat to us, I don't think Tesla has any plans of getting into the three-wheeler segment. So they are mostly focused on cars. And even if they do, I think we have a robust product right now that can easily compete with the best available three-wheelers in the world. Another interesting question we have from someone asking, is a retrofit with cost around 7.5 lakh and a new 3W around 3 and a new Tata is at 7 lakh. Do you think retrofit will fly in the logistics sector at this price point? What's the ideal TCO benefit you intend to give to your clients? But you want to take this up? I'll take this up because we are doing that. We are doing already this retrofitted in the LCV. About how does this make sense if a vehicle today is launched at 7.75 lakhs, whereas a new vehicle is available for a lesser price. So retrofitment, first of all, I would like to talk about retrofitment as a contributor to electrification for the country in two ways. One is because we are decarbonizing the environment but also decongesting the roads. So retrofitment, definitely for a country like India, has a use case in terms of converting the existing vehicles, especially in the light of the millions of aging vehicles on the road. Retrofitment has a role to play. Unfortunately, retrofitment has been unorganized and informal and hence there has been no attenuation. However, the government has laid down various standards like AIS Part 3, 1-2-3. There are standards laid out on how you should do it to get the vehicle certified also. So that's one side of the story of how retrofitment has to be done in an organized, in a standardized way through a certification rule which many people don't really go for. Second is what is how it is at 7.75. So at 7.75, competing with a new diesel via 6 product, we have to look at the total cost of ownership in three segments for the EV versus ICE battle of TCO. Battle one, the stage one is the upfront acquisition cost. Typically EVs are expensive than ICE vehicles. The factor of EV price versus ICE price is typically around 1.5 to 2 times. Of course, there are some segments where it is a little lower but you will see this kind of a factor acting out. This factor is coming down with the battery prices coming down and multiple other, you know, the whole technology evolving in the EV space. Second factor is the operating cost. So for example, in our ELCV versus a new BS6 diesel vehicle, we are 1.4 times more expensive. Second stage of the TCO battle is the operating cost. This operating cost has two components. Component number one is the running cost, which is where the mileage of the vehicle comes in, which is where the EVs become significantly more efficient and cost saving as compared to a diesel asset. Second component of the operating cost is the maintenance cost. This again is an area where the EVs because of, you know, far less, you know, typically if a diesel vehicle you look at, we have 2,000 plus parts, components. Whereas in a typical EV, the parts comes down to a few hundreds. So that's where the maintenance cost also heavily comes down. Because of this factor, I'm giving an example specifically to the ELCV, which we have created. The customer ends up saving around 5, 5.5 rupees a kilometer. And that becomes the saving for the customer. And of course, if you don't use the vehicle well, if you don't run the vehicle more, obviously this 5.5 rupees will not act out to create enough savings. So the usage of the vehicle or the daily run of the vehicle also plays a big role. What we have built a use case where the customer is easily able to overcome this upfront acquisition cost being more expensive and ends up saving around 3, 3.5 lakhs over a period of 5 years. So that's the kind of TCO or a business case has been built. Obviously with the new EVs coming in, obviously, you know, I'm sure EV age is coming out with, you know, new products on this site. So with the fame subsidy and the technology, definitely these prices are going to see the new benchmarks going forward. In the way you have any thoughts to share with regards to the pricing point? Yeah, so the pricing of EVs is going to be on the expensive side in the short term. But I believe, you know, the TCO is going to be better off. And also we discussed earlier, you know, during our conversations that there are going to be new models coming in, could be subscription, could be leasing, you know, so the financing needs to change, which of course is a topic we need to touch upon as an industry cumulatively, you know. So there's a need for hybrid instruments to be in place to propel this further. So yeah, it's a no-brainer TCO is going to be lesser and until the battery pack cost reaches the sub $100 levels, I think EVs are going to be more expensive on an upfront cost basis. Sure. So since we are talking about the financing part of it, Radha, you had some interesting thoughts when we were discussing it backstage about how the financing needs to be available for the logistics players. The difference between us having a thousand vehicles on road right now and not 10,000 vehicles on road at this point of time is purely because financing is not easy for electric vehicles. So the primary concern to most of the financiers is there is no secondary market for these kinds of vehicles. So if they finance a petrol or diesel part vehicle and someone defaults on that vehicle for whatever reason, then there is a secondary market for it. They know where to sell it. So when such a market doesn't exist, I think it is extremely important for the government to step in and say they're providing some kind of loan guarantee mechanisms. So this is something that is not new and it has been implemented very successfully in the case of Tesla and other auto manufacturers in the US about 10 years ago. So Tesla wouldn't be at a stage where it is today without that kind of support. We strongly discourage subsidies. I don't think subsidies are a way forward. The way forward has to be making financing available to segments where it already makes economic sense to adapt electric vehicles rather than try to push it into segments where vehicles are costly for people to own. So I think in that sense, I think the government has to step in with some kind of loan guarantee mechanism and it actually costs a fraction of the subsidy cost that they are giving out to purchases of electric vehicles. So that will enable the banks to readily finance electric vehicles with the confidence that someone is underwriting the investment they are making in the future of electric vehicles. I think also to add to what Raja is saying and I will also share an example of how we are facing challenges. So today this guarantee which Raja is rightly saying that there has to be a more enablement from an authority level, from a government level to kind of enable because today the introduction of new EVs in some segments needs basically the OEM to also play the role of a guarantor. So the expectation of the financial is that you also become completely you ensure and you assure the complete loss guarantee in the absence of a secondary market because the terminal value or the residual value of the vehicle is not established yet given the number of EVs on the road is less. So that's a big challenge. That's a challenge we face day in, day out with financial and the financials also are trying to do their best. Many of them also have burned their hands on their fingers in the COVID scenario especially with the whole delay. So there has been a challenge for them. So it's not about just the OEMs and then adding the entire ecosystem needs that kind of support to see that financing or it becomes easy to get the financing done for these vehicles. I wanted to quote an example of how we are we have introduced our ELCV, the retrofitting ELCV to a leasing model. So we started out leasing since the upfront cost was high and we were introducing a vehicle which was not seen on the roads. There was no other reference electric truck, small electric truck. Neither was this kind of a conversion standardised yet so we were the pioneer. So because of all these factors we had to introduce this on leasing model. We introduced it as an OEM. We got into the leasing and we also saw the challenges because today if you look at the e-commerce logistics space the logistics companies primarily act as aggregators of the fleet operators or the driver owners who come and deploy their vehicles with these logistics players. In our case as an EV OEM we were providing this vehicle on lease and the operations of the vehicle in terms of driver management had to be done by the logistics players. And this created a unique kind of a situation which the diesel environment which was running for so many years, so many decades had to look for a change because for us to get financing for leasing, because leasing is a capex heavy and you need to raise funds. For raising funds we needed contracts which are long term based on the kind of leasing value which will make sense. So we wanted financing for five years. The financiers or the investors wanted a contract obviously for five years but the existing market ecosystem is only for one year for the diesel vehicles. So these are multiple kind of challenges I just shared about how the diesel versus EV if somebody has to go in and play a role beyond the role of an OEM. So today I don't think as an OEM at each year or at even at the end of the year and I am also that your role becomes more than an OEM. You have to get into operations, you have to work very closely with the customers in terms of not just designing the vehicle but also in terms of enabling the adoption at the ground level, training the drivers, looking at the data, maintaining the vehicles, optimizing the usage. So the role is much bigger and financing will play a big role in terms of enabling this. So in the way would you like to add more to it? Yeah, I would like to add. Yes, yes. So there are two, it's a two-pronged problem you know. There is something, so I'll start with the German proverb you know, the wall ends up the blood you know. So that makes all the vehicles in the same room you know different segments which there was that is a given that we'll have to go through these hardships you know but one approach is that how we can make the vehicle durable enough to last 10 to 12 years that is one approach we need to take electrically as manufacturers we need to work on the battery technology, the battery problem issue so that we can In the way your video has paused I don't think we can hear you Raja and Deepak can you hear in the video? If you saw the video that's it it's just better and so on, video for a second maybe that helps. Yeah, am I audible now? Yeah, you are. Yeah, so I said it's a two-pronged strategy you know one we need to introspect and see if we can provide enough thermal management and make sure the battery packs run for the stipulated 1500 to 2000 we have half the battle one on the terminal problem we face as manufacturers right now and then of course second as Deepak mentioned factors for us. Okay, Deepak we have another question for you in the audience so Vasu Thakur is asking can atrio retrofit fit in the Indian logistics sector which overloads goods? Very good question I think so definitely one thing I can say is today vehicles is running you know shoulder to shoulder with the diesel vehicles so obviously they are going through the same kind of rigor what a diesel vehicle goes through and they are able to withstand the loads which are expected having said that we need to also fundamentally understand one thing about EVs which I think Indrewin mentioned in a different context I just want to add in here the vehicles are today the vehicle the mechanical strength reliability and the whole vehicle construction is definitely robust to withstand the main thing which happens when you overload electric vehicles is the range comes down as we all understand EVs there is a range versus payload curve so obviously the higher payload there is definitely an impact on the range and hence it's very important to use the EVs in the right way I firmly believe that that's also a role of the OEMs when we are working with our clients definitely that education and that awareness that you cannot use it perhaps the way it is used because with that kind of overloading in a diesel vehicle what happens is the mileage comes down it's very simple the mileage comes on obviously the operating cost goes up so the impact is similar however here what happens is because you are running with a fixed battery kind of system you need to be aware and conscious of how it is going to impact the range and once we have this swappable station swappable or charging stations across the country today India is extremely behind on the building a charging infrastructure in the country so that's another story once that happens you would find that these kind of challenges would go away and second is I think vehicle overloading is a phenomena which slowly and steadily is going away I mean when the vehicle is built for a particular payload earlier we used to see that vehicle would be abused and used the way the customer wanted to which impacts the usage but with the vehicles and with the guidelines and policies and the checks becoming more and more vehicle overloading is going to go down so I think that for the business is also to build their business on a future kind of a model where they are overloading the vehicles is also not advisable so we will take one last audience question which has come from Facebook it's from Karwa Norbu who is asking is supercharging possible in retrofitted vehicles if you push is supercharging possible in retrofitted vehicles yeah so in fact our latest version of our retrofitted ELCV I think supercharging is possible in every vehicle retrofitted on electric vehicles the fast charging is possible as long as you protect the battery so we are now introducing for example in retrofitment we are introducing liquid cooled battery pack which will enable fast charging of the battery without impacting significantly the cycling of the battery health so we are doing that so it's possible and I think it's possible for any vehicle retrofitted on okay so due to time we won't be able to take other questions but I would request your teams Deepak Rajah in the if they could answer the questions on Facebook live and before we conclude this a final parting thought from each one of you on how EVs are going to impact customers what are the benefits for them and what kind of innovation can we expect in the segment I think EVs are here to stay it will be faster than what people are anticipating regarding the adoption of electric vehicles with the battery prices coming down and more reliable vehicles hitting the market in terms of new developments I think swapping stations will be a key enabler of electric vehicles and specifically electric three-wheelers would be one segment passenger electric three-wheelers would be one segment where adoption of electric three-wheelers would be accelerated because of the presence of swapping stations I think Raja said EVs are the movement of reality has come firmly like Raja said three-wheelers are going to play the four runner in terms of the market share they will have in the overall three-wheeler market we are seeing action in two-wheeler so one is that the EV story has started without any doubt I think all the factors whether it is the environmental factor which has become a reality it's no more something which we read in the books or read on the news it is something which has hit us really hard in the last one year across different cities in the country across the world so I think as consumers as companies we are all aware of our responsibility towards creating a better future and EVs is the answer for that on the second side on the reality on the ground reality of business economics or the cost economics EVs are going to significantly be more competitive as we go battery prices are on the down slide diesel prices continue to go up in India and we are seeing EV technology evolving ecosystem evolving manufacturing supply chain evolving so all these will give returns which will make EV very very hard to beat for any other technology so EV is the technology for future if the adoption will happen of course there will be some segments which will see the adoption faster than others but EVs are here to stay and for good in the week do we have in the week do we have you here yes I am here can you hear me yes your parting course please yes yeah so I would like to just take a minute and tell you go back in history the automobile replaced the horse cart between 90 or 1 to 1920 20 years the sale of automobiles versus horse carriages was 0.5% was automobiles 99.5% were horse carriages between 1920 we saw the first World War I happened we saw the first great recession in the world but by 1920 there were only 0.5% of the horse carts 99.5% were automobiles and I strongly believe history is going to repeat you know and there are instances of this so that is the domain we are in for EVs right now this is the time for conversion for most of the people going forward and I believe this is the best opportunity to be into the clean mobility space for everybody so that's what my belief is for the future of EVs on that note we would like to conclude it a very big thank you to Indavir Deepak Rajan to all three of you because you're making the way for making a self-reliant India and wish you good luck in your journey ahead and thank you for sparing your time and being with us today hope to see all of you in person in the coming future sure thanks Manita I appreciate the effort put in to get us here great interacting with you Indavir and Deepak same here Rajan Indavir and Praveeta thanks a lot likewise thanks Rajasth thanks Deepak and Rajan thank you thanks Manita thanks thank you to all our audience for logging in today