 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. An FIR was filed against the Indian Army after three civilians lost their lives in an incident of open firing in Kashmir. This FIR has been at the heart of a lot of heat debate. And to discuss this, we have with us today Mr. Parvez Imroz. Mr. Imroz is a lawyer and an activist and one of the founding members of Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society. He has done groundbreaking work in documenting mass graves in Kashmir and researching human right violations by the Indian Army. Mr. Imroz has also provided legal assistance to a lot of families in cases of disappearances in Kashmir. So, sir, we today want to talk to you about Chopian and what has happened there recently. And as you know that now the Supreme Court has stayed any action against any coercive action against the major who was named in the FIR. So what is your opinion on it? Well, it's not surprising here, you know, particularly after 1990, you know, that the way Supreme Court in the Kashmir-related cases have taken a very different position, you know. It's not surprising here. You see, one thing is that as far as we have the Armed Forces Special Powers Act here, which gives a legal impunity to the armed personnel here. And meaning that they can't be prosecuted, you know, unless there's not a sanction. And the sanction is really given by the Home Ministry, federal government. It's like that according to Rajasabha that the statement recently, they say 50 cases have been sent for the ground up sanction and in which 47 they have denied. So question is that is the they have the legal cover and sanction prosecution is very unlikely. But what is very disturbing? I mean that under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, the investigation is not bad. That the FIR filing an FIR according to the Supreme Court judgment in Lalitha Kumari, there's a five-judgment. They said that in a noticeable offense, the FIR has to be filed. So even in this case, the Supreme Court, you know, that order, you know, then which is very disturbing here, one can understand if there's a prosecution or one can understand that if there's a conviction of the armed person. But even the FIR, Supreme Court has ordered stated and then that is the very disturbing here. I mean, even in a possible case, we know that how in a possible case, finally that even the CBI investigation has invited the five army official for the extra-jewish feelings taken counter. But even finally that Supreme Court sent it today for the army for court-martial and army didn't conduct the court-martial. On the contrary, they conduct the summary of evidence, which is not the court-martial. So now this has been stayed and but there was also this magisterial probe, which Mehboobam Mufti had said that that will be conducted to lead this investigation to its logical conclusion. The Supreme Court order is saying that there cannot be any coercive action against the army general, but will that order also affect this probe and the investigation in this probe? Because that should technically go on as per it was been happening. Will this order then affect this probe as well? You know, normally it is very customary for the government, you know, in a high-profile case, the state government has always ordering the maestral enquiries and every year we have also the document that where none of the maestral enquiries finally, I mean, concluded or they have been very effective. You know, that is a very ritual. It is just to subside the public anger. These maestral enquiries are no credibility because another fact is also the army, not only the maestral enquiry, but even in the police investigation, they are never cooperating. For example, the police in a lot of cases we have where the police have been asking the army to give the role of the army personnel there. They are not forwarding with them. And even the High Court has not been very proactive. Actually, the problem is not the legality. The problem is the morality. The moral impunity is an issue before the government. They have the legal impunity, but the moral of the army is getting down here. That is a bigger challenge for the Indian government. You know, the way people are coming on the streets, people are protesting, educating, and it is demoralizing the army. And you see the statement of the former defense minister or the military leadership particularly, if you remember that last year when there was a Farouk Dar's case, you know, who was tied with a jeep. His polling investigation are instead of that taking him to task for making a person who had gone on to cause the vote. And he was rewarded. The army official was made a national hero by the Indian government here. And even he was, it was said that he should be given the promotion like that thing. So the government has a big challenge in Kashmir that is the moral, how they are going to boast the moral of the army. That is the right wing government which India has right now. And for them, the army can do no wrong. Speaking against the army is unpatriotic. And you question the conduct of the army, whatever they do, if they go killing teenage boys, blinding the girls, blinding the passers-by, standards-by, they are justifying it. So just to boast the moral of the army, they are doing these things. Before 2010, they were the military leadership were saying that it is a terrorism. It is the terrorist people who are fighting or people who are educating against that. But after 2010, when there was millions and millions of people, which was 2016, they called it educational terrorism. So the question is how they are going to boast the moral of the army. And the army's moral is getting down here. That is a big challenge for the Indian government. And also coupled with the right wing activists who are making to going to different institutions, particularly the judiciary. And normally, the judiciary of Supreme Court of India, which is a very powerful institution and which always the people have some hopes, particularly on the Pothribal case. But on the Pothribal case, even that hope is no more. So now, how are the families of these victims who died in Chopian? Do you know how they feel about this FIR and what the Supreme Court has, the Supreme Court action right now? They know about it. One has said that they have no faith on the institution and you see it's not the isolated case. But if we see the conduct of Supreme Court in all the cases from since 1990, particularly if you remember the Mosul of Parveen's case and other matters, humor at related issues. So they don't have any faith on the institution. In fact, they they believe that the Supreme Court has proved more exact you than the exact you know, and they have been condoning. So that is an issue here. They say that if the domestic remedies are the domestic institutions meant to protect their life, right to life and liberties of individual. So if they fail to deliver or if they are not, I mean, seeking accountability from the perpetrators. So finally, they have the legitimacy. It gives them the legitimacy to go to the international institutions for the international humanitarian intervention. This is what they are thinking. It's not only the family, but I have been dealing the cases of of a lot of people, you know, disappear as a student, as they can call to take the case of Kunan Pushpura, for example. Pushpura case was in 1992. And then even Supreme Court has the matters pending in Supreme Court, even in that case, why are more than 40 women were raped? I mean, who came forward? It is more than that. Even the matter was stayed. Investigation was stayed in that case also by the High Court here. And even the matter is lying with the Supreme Court from last two years. And so you can imagine that even if the judiciary is staying the investigation in one Kunan Pushpura, which was internationally, I mean, there was international outcry on that. So after 26 years, the investigation, if they allow it, that further investigation will be concluded, people have died, victims have died. And even after that, there are different layers. For example, if the investigation is allowed, and then there will be sanctioned, there are different layers for the case, which are, I mean, which is very finally helping the perpetrators to get away with the crime they have committed. And finally, we also wanted to ask you about the second petition which has been filed at the National Human Rights Commission. This was filed by the children of soldiers saying that what about the human rights of soldiers? It was talking about that. What do you have to say about this petition? They can file the petition there, National Human Rights Commission. And, but even the National Human Rights Commission is also, I mean, it is just, as I told earlier, just to boost the morale of the armed forces. And for the National Human Rights Commission, it is concerned that they, it is an institution which is very selective. Even in the cases pending of the victims who have approached the National Human Rights Commission or the State Human Rights Commission, which has referred the cases to what army, where against army there are allegations because the State Human Rights Commission doesn't have any mandate regarding the army officials, but they can refer it to National Human Rights Commission and National Human Rights Commission under section 19 can lead to the army. So I think there are a lot of cases which have been sent by the State Human Rights Commission. So the National Human Rights Commission's credibility also, you know, as far as the Kashmir-related issues is not very up to the mark here. And then these people who are children who have gone there, I mean, they can, but because if the army officials, army persons, they are, I mean, if there's a violation of them, that is one issue. But what about the victims who have already gone to the National Human Rights Commission? And that is, that's why I'm telling you repeatedly, we are telling always repeatedly the institutions, you know, we are saying that the suppression and repression in Kashmir is a systematic institution, meaning that all the institutions of the state, whether it is the legislature, it is the executive, it is the judiciary, it is the police, it is the army are part and parcel of that. That is what we fear, because if there's a level of suppression and repression is increasing, it is intensifying here. And then finally, it is going to take some shape, you know, if we, there would be a Newtonian reaction, you can't expect that India believing that they can control people, because they only on military solution now, and they believe that you, as long as they're able to control people suffering and miserable, it will be peaceful, right? But it's definitely going to take some, I mean, we don't know after 2016 what will happen, you know, and so also it is going to push the young people to other extreme India. There is also worry of the civil society here. And the armed personnel, we have our own experience after two, three years, particularly the present government, you know, the right-wing government, the way they are, you know, extending all sort of impurities to them, and it is really, they are more aggressive, and that's why they are using more force, this proportionate force on this side. So thank you, sir, for talking to us. And hope as the issue progresses, we hope to see some good positive action, and we hope to come back to you again. And thank you for watching Newscake.