大家早上好 歡迎收看財新辯論今天的特別的節目我們在柬埔寨金邊錄製討論的題目是現金如何不再為王Hello everyone welcome to 財新 Debate in NampenToday we are going to discusshow to dethrone cash as a kingenbleaching the managing director of 財新 GlobalSouth East Asia is on the verge of the digital boomthe numbers are stunningfor the more than 600 million people in this regionmore than a third a smartphone usersand more than a quarter have subscription to broadbandhave subscription to broadband servicesthe high penetration road is growing a double digitbut at the same time we have very low applicationof many of the services the digital servicesincluding let's say e-commercewhich accounts for only 3% of the retail sales herecompared to more than 14%in US and China marketand so much of the transactionis still taking place in cashso why is there the mismatchhow to close the gapand I'm just imagine the forcethat will be unleashed when we close this gapso today we have distinguished panelists herejoining us to discuss this issueand tell us why and howlet me introduce my panelists hereso first of all let's say Dr. in Cheneythe president and the managing directorof the group managing director of CambodiaAkleta Bankthank youand Mr. Tim Murphythe general counciland chief franchise officerof MasterCardand Nick Nashthe group presidentNick Nashthe group presidentof what formerly known as Carinaand now C groupthank youyesand Rahu Sinhafrom PayPal general managerof PayPal Southeast Asialet's first start hearingfrom Dr. in Cheneywho has a fascinating personal storyfrom a labored kidin under Kamahoucheand now the founderand also the founderalso the presidentof the largest bank in Cambodiaso Dr. in Cheneyhow do you see the mismatchand how do we change that hereso thank you Mr. Lee ThienI think the subject isinspired me a lotso because Cambodiaeven we are look intocompare with the other countryin the region in ASEANyes especially we arewe are like thethe lab not the factnot the not the maturein terms of finance or systemwe are but we are notleave behindwe are fast in such a wayin terms of technologyyou know weso theI compare with thewith the countrywith the facilitywith the landlinewe start withthe technologywhere we have mobileso wethis is in such a waywe are fastso look into the mismatchyou say thatcompare to the United Statesin and alsoin the mature countrythe ASEANon the penetrationonly 3%butthis isthere are a lot ofkey barrier into thisso one isthe customer educationand secondlywhen we talk aboutthe e-commercewe look intothe regulation in placeso talking aboutregulation in placewe alsonot talk just onebut one ministrywe talk witha fewinvolve ministrythat need tocoordinate itto work togetherneed to agreethatcertain regulationrelate to e-commerceneed toto bejust assignedone ministryto look into thatand let megive youin case of Cambodiaas a Cambodiaso when we talkabout e-commerceregulationwe talkabouta ministryof commercewe talkaboutthe nationalbibecommodiaand we talkaboutthe ministryof interioraswhenlook intothethere isa draftlawalreadyin placebutto myunderstandisfrom2015so ittakestimesothis isthefirstcustomereducationsecondisthee-commercelawand regulationand thethirdoneistherelateto theavailabilityof thesupportthebakeissuewewewe joininthisnetworklaterbutwe movefasterIweusual traveltotheothercountryletintheusinJapaninEuropeisyouknowin termsofnetworktheyouwepayinKangburialotsofplaceI meanmanyplaceissuchasa hotelrestauranisafreesothe support thenetworkit'sisevenmuchmoreavailablesothisisthespecifickeybarrierwhye-commercewhye-paymentwhylikepaymentvcardfacitymoveslowbecausea keythe keyonelikecustomereducationtheregulationwhywe needregulationwhenwhenwecontinuetoprovidetheseservicesthereisnonoauthorityinKangburyasay thatthis isnoregulationyou shouldnotnot do ititwe think in terms of this disputewhen the dispute comeand then we think thatall the regulation is very importantbecauseand thenwe want the regulationthat can helpshow the issuequicklynotnot a matter of likeso far we saidlet wait until 45 daysso wewe want but in weekat leastnoifif not within the dayat leastbut in weeknot three monthsso this ismy point related to whyit moveslowinourregionvery importantpornonregulationand willcomebackonthatbutbeforethatcanyougiveusasenseofthehugepenetrationratetomobilefromhereandthemissedopportunitywhoorthepotentialofthepotunityherebecauseyesterdayprimeministerhandsandmentiontheyarethethefoamownershipislike120%ofthepopulationhereyeahthat'scorrectbecauselikewewejoinedlatebutwe movefastlikenumberofmobilephoneasourprimeisterindicatedyesterday125%soonelikeonepersonhavemorethanonemobilephonesothisisonthepornetrationandthenlookintothesmartphonealsobecausetheavailabilityplustheprice7001000USDbutwe talkabout150to200USDtheycanhavelargecapacityorissothepornetrationpornetrationisveryhighandandandlikeatwosortnotnotnotonesortlikeyousortlikeonesortinintheotherworldbutinKambudbecauseit'satwosort ofthepeoplewhoowntheandnowlet's switchtoTimSoTimyou havemore thanseventeenyearsexperienceonpaymentSotell mehow you seethe mismatch hereandhow wouldyouadressthatSoit'sagreatquestionandin somewayscashstill remainskingasas we'vesaid85%andtransactionsin theworldtodayareincashwe knowthatcashisdificalfor consumersin termswe knowit'sdifficultforsocietiesit'sitpromotesthegreateconomyandit'sachallengefromafromgovernmentstandpointfortaxcollectionifweincreaseanycountriesapercentageofelectronicpaymentsbyonepercentrelativetoPCEwe knowwe canhelpaccelerateGDVgrowthGDPgrowthbysomewherebetweenathirdanda half of a percentagepointsoI think the challenge ahead of us is one that requires a whole variety of solutions.This is a challenge that will be addressed by card payments, by mobile payments.It will be addressed by banks and by fintech providers.It will be addressed by the public and the private sector working together.And in our view, there's three things that are essential.The first is you have to recognize that one of the reasons for the mismatch that you've talked aboutis because electronic payments distinct from having access to the internetis a different kind of transaction.Governments want to know who is conducting payments around the world.There are fundamental requirements in every country worldwide on anti-money laundering, on KYC,know your customer.That means that identity, formal identity for consumers is a critical part of enablingthe world beyond cash and electronic payments.And systems like that lack in many places.So, formal identity is a key part of the dethroning cash as king.We're seeing really interesting progress in India, Nigeria and other places on very major efforts to provide more people around the world with a formal identity.The second thing we've got to do is recognize that in order to displace cash, we need every human being on the planet to have access to a secure transaction account.We need that account to be usable in many places and we need to educate consumers, as Dr. Chani said, about the benefits of electronic payments.All three of those things are required and they will take work across all elements of the sector to drive progress.Financial institutions have a huge role to play, sort of mobile money operators, sort of e-commerce giants.And one of the critical things we need to do together is make sure that small merchants, small enterprises around the world can accept electronic payments.So, there's quite a bit of work to do.Very interesting.Thanks for mentioning the financial inclusion and we'll come back to that.And now, Nick.So, Nick, your company just changed its name this very week from Karina to SEA Group, to Sea Group.And you are one of the leading internet companies here.One of the most highly valued internet company in this region.So, tell us, first of all, why did you change the name?It's a great question.And thank you so much for organizing this panel.It's wonderful to be here with a number of friends and many, many teachers in the audience that have given us so much over the years.Garina was founded back in 2009 with a very specific mission, which was to democratize technology for the true middle class of what we call Greater Southeast Asia,which is ASEAN and Taiwan combined together.And our very first business was in digital media and entertainment.And that's flourished.It's become a very significant, in fact, the number one by market share business in its category.And then about two years ago, we launched a second business in financial services, a payments business, again to democratize payments for this region.And then about a year and a half ago, we launched yet another business in e-commerce called SHOPI.And SHOPI is now the largest e-commerce business in what we call Greater Southeast Asia in terms of the orders per day.And AirPay is one of the very largest in fintech.And we felt that we needed a brand that wasn't just the brand of our first business, but a brand that captured all of what we want to do for consumers.And so we thought long and hard and picked the simplest, humblest name we could find, which is C, because it stands for Southeast Asia.And it also is the one unifying geographic element of this entire region.Something like 90% of our population here lives on an island or near the shoreline.The C is part of our lives every day.So we felt great about that.And let's come back to your question.How do you and how does C group see the mismatch here?And how do you address that?We've been talking about this for a while.We are frustrated in some ways by the tremendous mismatch between digitally connected consumersand digitally disconnected paying consumers.And advertising alone will never support great internet business models here.We have three very specific views that we want to share with the group.One is that solving the cash problem will be essential to this.We notice in every one of our markets, even our more affluent markets like Taiwan,the cash is an important part of the equation.And we've stumbled upon, I would hesitate to say we've inventedbecause others have had similar successes on a model we call the reverse ATMwhere we enable hundreds of thousands of locations,in our case about 150,000 locations as top up points for mums and dadsas regular middle class families to top up money into a wallet.And that leads to our second view which is thatI think an incredibly important part of where payments will evolvein Southeast Asia is towards prepaid debit accountswhich may or may not be linked to a bank account.Today in Southeast Asia about half of our population,almost 300 million people don't even have a checking accountlet alone a fintech sort of snazzy walletand that's going to be a very interesting conceptthat will gradually shrink over timebut actually hundreds of millions of people may initially adoptmore of a prepaid relationship through a mobile wallet.And our third observation is that we find thatthere really is an opportunity for local and regional championsto be successful.There are phenomenal global businesses like PayPaland MasterCard that will have a role to play herebut we'd be disappointed if there weren't a fewlocal champions as well.But the missing ingredient to do that is deregulation.And the reason we say that is it is probablyimpossible in some of our countries herefor a local startup, an ASEAN startupto get an e-money license.And for all sorts of reasons we can discuss later in the panelbut liberalizing that giving our local companiesa chance to compete on a level playing fieldin this region I think is crucialfor us to have a national and a global leaderin this area.Thank you, thank you.And we'll talk about the level playing fieldin that global champion in a minute.So Rahu, now turn to you.You are responsible expanding PayPalin this Southeast Asia region.So how do you see the shift in this region?Good morning first of all.Great.Thank you so much for having me on this panel.I'm very privileged and I'm really excitedto be on this panel.I've been associated with financial inclusiondisplacing cash for the last 18 yearsand pretty much most of it in this part of the world.So I'm not giving you my CVbut just trying to establish in the relevanceto this particular context.So extremely excited to talk about thiswith my fellow panelists.I think it's an important issue.I think we can all agree cash is dirty,cash is dangerous, and cash is expensive.I think it's incumbent upon usthe industry plays both global and localto try and displace it.It has huge benefits for the society,for the economy, for GDP growthas Timothy mentioned.My vantage point on this areais a little different from whatNikki Timothy mentioned.They were kind of focused a little biton the consumer side, getting consumersto adopt financial services.Where is what we have beendoing at PayPal and what I have beenand my teams have been involvedis enabling the small merchants,the MSMEs, the entrepreneurs,the micro enterprises to goonline and start earning a livelihood.And I think we've seen tremendousprogress in that area.When we talk about financial inclusionyou know the general definitionis typically about getting peoplewho are unbanked basic financialinstruments so that they can dobasic transactions.I think we've taken a slightlydifferent stance to thiswhich is enabling the underprivileged,the underserved and allowing themto connect to the global economyand start doing basic trade.And one of my favorite examplesis in one of our customers.She's a freelancer.She does web design servicesand she used to be a nurseand used to find it very difficultto make her ends meet.Then she discovered that she's avery good content writerand a blog writerand somebody told herwhy don't you go onlineso there are a lot of freelanceplatforms like up forfreelancer.com,facebook where you could findclients and PayPal was thereto bridge the missing linkof payments so she was ableto then start doing content workfor the global audienceand start earning a livelihood.She was able to quit her joband now employs four peopleand runs a fairly big enterpriseand earns ten timesthat what she wasinterpreting.So this is an exampleof financial inclusion.This is an exampleof dethroning cash.And that's kind ofbeen a big, big focus areaon enabling the MSMEsand this Jeanineis one examplethere are about 200,000such examplesthan I can talk about.South East Asia now hasclosed to about3.5 million freelancers.Freelancers is a broadpublic organization of anybodywho has given up theirregular joband doing work on their ownfrom the comfort of theirhomes.All they need is a computerand a fast internetconnection.And that has beengrowing quite rapidlyand we've beenenabling that.A little bit on theconsumer sidealluding to some of thepoints which the fellowpanelists made aroundgetting people,especially the underbankand the underservedbasic access tofinancial services.And I think we've struggledwith that for the last9 years.M-Pesa and Kenyais always touted asa great example.40% of GDPnow is going throughM-Pesa.They've done aphenomenal job ingetting peopleinto basicgetting basicfinancial services.And I think there aremore than 20 mobileoperators who've triedthis in this part ofthe worldwith limited successbecause they'velimited the usecasesspecifically toairtime topup in P2P.And it's verydifficult to explainto a customerwhy do you needfor a futureuse case.And I thinkthat's whereNick's company hasdone a marvelousjob in trying toopen it upand say wemake it more ubiquitous.And as again,credit is duewith MasterCard.They've done aphenomenal jobin gettingthe prepaidrails out there.So a lot of thewallets whichwere closed loopwallets whichcould only beused withina certain ecosystemhave now opened upand let's takean example oftrue money inAerpaein Thailandand now connectedon theMasterCardrails it givesyou ubiquity.So whenyou say cash isking,I thinkcash isking,but theusecase isking con.Just tosoundcorny.So ifwe canstep backa littlebit and youmentioned theunderbank and alsounderprivilegedwho didn'thaveformer accessyou takeon that.SotheI thinkyour points aboutthere are commonuseca-there are commonneeds around theworld andso there's probablymore similaritiesthan there aredifferences toanswer your questionbut I'd point tomaybe two things.One isourcenter for inclusivegrowth has done somework ondigital indexesand trying tounderstandhow differentcountries rate onaccess to digitalwe find againand again isthatwhileso-calledtransaction factorthings likeaccess tofinancial servicesa basic accountor for a smallmerchantanability totransactonlineis importantat the end of thedayaccess tothe internetaccess tomobile servicesare reallyfundamentaldrivers.Sothis part ofthe worldrelative to placeslikethe我認為政府在這些空間的政策中會幫助到資金的經濟並且更加幫助在世界上的財富和財富這就是其中一個另外的一個我不會說是獨有的在國內的FTA但在這裡的重要點是至少與財富和財富之關所以我並沒有說資金的財富這是一個市場 scratches want to touch and feel what they've bought beforethey paid.And we need to make sure that digital payment solutions aredesigned for that use case.In other words there has to be local variation andlocal innovation to make sure that the particular cultural needsare being addressed.And it's why for example I think the kind of mobilebased P2P solutions that are based on prepaid where agood can be delivered digitally and the payment製造的資料 若果使用者有預期的資料是很有趣的這就是我們很興趣的在我們自己的經濟系統上有QR基金的資料因為你可以用QR的資料在貨品上做成很高的資料在很便宜的方式上所以有些不同的我認為一種 benefit是開放新興建的和效果的方式我同意在於在於輸入的經濟系統更多人可以進入這些經濟系統更多的新興建設你會獲得新的新技術將帶來特別的需求把所有的新技術都移到另外一邊新的生產經濟現在Rau 也已經提及有不少關於電子用家的利用的家人你的公司會很快地成為這次公司需要如何解決這個問題然後如何互動更多關注的電子用家人在前10年,這已經是一項挑戰但好消息是在前12個月我們真的在進行進行進行我們的研究在其他市場上提出了,在最後一天三個利用的情況下都會有很好的交易最好的是日常交易阿里巴巴、淘寶阿里佩奧是個很好的例子第二是遊戲有興趣的媒體第三是其實聊天並不是因為你跟別人聊天而是因為紅包而是因為送禮物在中國,你見過阿里佩奧以及淘寶在南宇地區我們看到這件事在幾個不同的市場上我們都很幸運地做了一些利用但是其他市場也很幸運現在的利用情況都在地上我覺得你會看到人們在搭載 E-Wallets在我們自己的市場上我們發現我們的 E-Wallet  transaction flows每個半個百分之30%並不是每個月這是一個很興奮的地方這很棒我們都會同意嗎我同意我認為你的原本的問題是在美國和世界之間的不同我認為他們都很想同意有足夠的資訊並沒有很多免費的資訊用戶和使用能夠使用它在所有地方我認為最大的不同是在經濟系統和資訊系統之中我們應該談論更多在這段時間我舉個例子在美國PayPal 公司你下載 app你可以設置 within a minute你可以聯繫你的 bank accounts你基本上是好得去類似的東西像 WeChat in China還有其他類似的 payment services來這裡Nik 會同意你必須要跟 Albert Einstein聯繫你的 bank account to an app有幾個步驟你必須要通過我認為 Thailand Prompe做了一個很棒的工作在 trying to simplify that政府的籌伐但是這個經驗不是很棒的所以你能夠完全解釋 customer needs to have基本上設置他們的基本功能是非常高的在那裡你會加上複製的複製複製的複製和行動限制基本上行動的複製開始是很高的所以對我來說這是一個很大的大問題在減少行動因為當你上載了有人當他們上載了第一 第二行動獲得行動是很簡單的但是我看從我的複製的最大的行動至少在 consumer side有去到這些行動做得更簡單但是進步是做得更簡單我覺得技術是一個很棒的行動比較多在 MSME和藝術方面我覺得我們看到很大的進步像我所說的3.5 million自由利益或6.5 million是很厲害的差不多半個百分比所有人的自由利益如果我們看到藝術人在做 global trade我們預算是6.5 million我的希望是20 million我們在這方面我們要把他們進行進行進行進行進行進行進行進行謝謝我們現在進行進行進行進行這是需要的進行進行裴正你提到的規定你提到的在 consumer的學習你認為這個進行進行在我所說的我們銀行的資料廠嘗試增加資料廠的資料非常接近客人然後我們移動到電子廠的資料廠8M的機器店客人仍然認為有很多公司的資料廠我們有8M的機器店的資料廠不足然後他們提供銀行的資料廠嘗試增加資料廠我們有電子廠賣相例如賣相公司賣相解決賣相 電子廠快速技術所以我提到銀行的資料廠我已經提到銀行的資料廠然後網絡賣相在銀行的資料廠我再次想要提到我們的資料廠網絡的資料廠在銀行的資料廠很高很便宜而且很努力以負責這就是為了銀行的資料廠嘗試增加資料廠所以客人可以使用更多的資料而且通常是免費的所以它是支援銀行的資料廠如銀行的資料廠以及其他公司去增加資料廠去支援他們的客人不是一個問題但當我們開始用電腦這很方便讓客人去獲取資料然後有一個問題從客人的資料廠因為旅行到工場他們有很多問題我們問他們我們問他們給他們證據例如資料但在電腦在獲取資料廠用電腦這很方便我們要求資料廠同樣的問題但他們的答案他們覺得他們給他們的答案他們給他們的資料然後在獲取資料廠用電腦的資料廠然後問題從客人的資料廠這很方便然後他們有資料廠他們需要到工場證明他們已經有資料廠所以技術資料廠我們要求所有資料廠都要求客人的資料廠所以客人的資料廠因為這很方便所以他們需要到工場證明他們的資料廠或其他東西但因為這很方便是傳統的也很方便所以我們要求他們把資料廠的資料廠另一個例子證明證明他們有資料廠證明他們有資料廠他們說這是資料廠我們告訴他們這是資料廠但你必須選擇證明他們有資料廠證明他們有資料廠或是你必須選擇這也是客人的行動我們也必須選擇再次回到資料廠你希望找到我認為這是網路產業充足的充足充足以保證技術和貿易確保這些我們談論 e-payment digital我們談論在加拿大但你提及安全我看見因為有些人仍然存在貨幣我手機、手機、手機就像是貨幣然後他們需要貨幣所以Branch and Office,ATM network就像是貨幣他們有貨幣如果貨幣不合理他們要做什麼我用我的貨幣如果貨幣不合理我需要去Branch我需要去ATM有很多選擇有很多選擇對所以我又不想看到其他貨幣要更換貨幣我希望看到其他貨幣能夠達到貨幣我們有貨幣的解決所以他們可以選擇貨幣如果其他貨幣可以更換貨幣就像是貨幣所以我們再次建立其他貨幣我們需要找一個方法更換貨幣更換貨幣更換貨幣對謝謝很重要的地方我們沒有新貨幣但我們有很多選擇很多方法讓貨幣更換貨幣多用對 Dr. Chen's comments我認為兩件事一件事我知道我們會回到但是好貨幣很重要在每個國家在世界上進行貨幣有複雜的KYC政府去幫助一些貨幣我們說的很重要這是這部分我認為很難看得到但是當你提到貨幣今天提到貨幣我們會再次再次其實是 quite counterintuitive如果你提到一個貨幣是在貨幣經濟這件事是給他們貨幣解決說你必須你必須討論貨幣但是你必須確保他們有貨幣貨幣是最初貨幣唯一是貨幣是去確保他們能有貨幣所以他們會保持貨幣在貨幣而這是很重要的謝謝如果我們來看看技術什麼最重要的技術你認為會改變去不是貨幣現在我們知道會有更多貨幣社會經濟開始是股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市股市在商業上的負責而且基本上有幾百萬的資金像我們在中國、美國等等第三個我覺得非常關鍵的這部分的世界是社會的障礙我們都會有優惠的資金他們會推銷他們會發行但那些地方已經有很多領域了在泰國50%的商業現在在社會上在社會上還有很多領域我們會發行還會發行從自由的意思還有很多領域很多領域還會發行他們不斷發行他們會發行因為大部分社會製造他們會發行也不會發行因為他們這樣子會發行他們會發行他們會發行會發行我們 will會發行我們會發行他會發行我跟Rahul 說了一件事我們談過很多話在這個談論中的 consumer那是非常重要的但我們認為Rahul 為此是相當重要的不能有商業沒有小商業的人只要我包裝雞肉就能有小商業沒有工作的 capital我們認為能夠利用 payment networks不僅要推銷$ 或 BOT 或 DONG one way但另一方是很有趣的我意思是利用 these networks做小 business lending在深層的層面利用 transaction data出現了 e-commerce遊戲 什麼的做選擇 and thoughtful underwriting甚至在層面有 formal credit application我們開始 piloting this這很早的但我們認為如果我們有年代的 transaction history用小 SME賣20-30 package a day那是很好的能夠利用 underwriting to a point可以有 NPLs低於 0.7%這很有趣就像 Netflix告訴你你應該看電影我們是說你只要有$ 或 BOT 你會有更多的工資更多的工資你的生意會更好我們認為Lending是另一種但在不同的層面最重要的是更多利用技術技術他們不需要提供經濟利用或利用但更多利用 transaction data做更好的決定另一個技術這是對的對我想說你提到技術我看了特殊國家很多的我們都想這是我知道的我自己的技術我工作在這裡所以不可以他們可以有技術他們的技術他們在特殊國家一起工作所以他們可以聯繫至少地區和地區如果你還說這是我自己的技術我自己的工作不會所以我們需要一起工作在國家中至少我們說關於社會社會所以如果有一個可以加入可以除了不需要不需要不需要除了除了做研究發展如果有一個研究發展社會所有人都可以加入我們需要加入技術當然我們需要在社會加入社會社會 Availability社會無奈因為我們可不看不這個對 business無奈能耐用能耐用技術這是最重要的我想古流是怎樣社會需要員工需要短期卻收入此那是一個完美的 完美的 完美的 1000 歲的業務模式但是如果去到一個傳統的銀行甚至一些最好的 microfinance 銀行就像是 Dr. Cheney 所創造的想法是給人家20 美元的錢或是人家20 美元的錢是這麼不值得的從一個負責負責任的方式它就不簡單但在其他方面去到一個技術公司他們可以做到的但他們沒有理由所以 Dr. Cheney 是正確的我們要找方法要有更多的商業方式包括全銀行的 銀行的 銀行的 銀行的 銀行的那些可以在一個非常好的一個非常好的方式把那些銀行的 銀行的 銀行的做到最好的方式它在最後的一天是一個銀行的 銀行的 銀行的是一個銀行的 銀行的對 但是我會問你你倆都一定是對的銀行的 銀行的可能是最好的方式去做 microlending因為他們有傳統的歷史他們已經有他們已經有銀行的 銀行的他們更重要的是他們有視乎未來的銀行的 銀行的但是他們沒有能夠有更多的他們有更多的我找到的挑戰是你跟銀行的 銀行的但銀行仍然需要通過全國銀行的 全國銀行的所以你需要銀行的 銀行的所以你能夠做一二十塊但銀行的 銀行的銀行的 銀行的可能是百分之百我覺得這就是很多的新興需要發生的在政府的政府的 政府的 政府的 政府的 政府的It's the accumulationof all of thosenon-tariffnon-intended barriersthat gives us a phrasewe use instead of our companywhich is thatSouth East Asia is the cheapest placein the world to be a rich personand the most expensive placein the world to be a poor personand that's very trueIt's interestingThe other pointso you see what we havewe have made one mistakealready related to the point of saleyou knowat we talk about merchantthe difficulty of the merchanteach merchant they havea little bit more than one bankthey have like amore than one point of salethree five and up to tenten point of saleand they have limited spacesso we talk about likeQR codeso to avoid repeated mistakewe should have only oneQR code for allI mean for all playerall bank justI heard the initiative from likemaster visaso want tolook into thisone code applicable for allI see that's thething we should look intonot to avoid mistakewhen weeveryone honor its ownlike a networkown point of saleand then difficult for the merchantso just oneQR codeand then accessible to allall likeI mean the player in thatyeahwell we have to get that rightand I do think you're earliercomment about interoperable systemsthat leverage common technologyis usually important to drive thisjust to come back to thequestion about governmentI think thewe've already talked about KYCand simplifying KYCI think that's one placethatpolicymakers can help addressthe issueI thinkpublic private partnershipswe're looking athow we match capitalto some of theI completely agreethe incredible powerthat comes out ofthese payment systemsin terms of doingalternative underwritingwe still struggle globallyactually with makingthat real at scaleso that's anuntapped issueissue for all of usI just to pull on governmentI do think governmenthas another huge role hereand you mentioned ita little bitand it's thatgovernment by faris in most countriesis the largest如果政府 systematically moves to a place where it will receive funds electronicallyso egovernment solutionsif it systematically moves to places where it will disperse funds electronicallyand not via cashwhether that's social benefits, payroll or other thingsacross whatever means you chooseyou will see dramatic shifts towards a cashless society in those economiesso it is both about a good regulatory regime KYCit is about thinking differently about credit underwritingbut then it's government is an economic actor pushing this more aggressivelywe're seeing some wonderful progress in Eastern Europeand some countries in Latin Americathat are adopting leading principles in this spacegovernments can learn from one another on these thingsvery interestingso government as the first userfirst userso but we talk about government's roleas to provide the level playing fieldor as the first useranother part of that is the protection of the consumerand we talk about the alternative credit systemand the convenience of having more financial services onlinebut will that jeopardize the protection, the securityof people's digital footprintand the financial informationI think you know Lixin your comment is absolutely rightif you think about government saysservice providers and producers are public goodsprivacy, protection, securityacross the world of paymentsand people's savings is absolutely sacrosanctand the horrifying scenarios when a family in the Philippinesor in Indonesia with a gross worth of a few hundred dollarsand a net worth that may even be negativeis somehow subject to a fraudulent set of transactionswhich do happenand that's an absolutely horrifying scenariothat both the private sector and the public sectorneed to manageso we are completely aligned with thatneedless to say the origins of KYC in many waysare around fraud minimizationand anti-avortancebut I think there's a deeper truthwhich is governments operatenumber one through a principle of compassiontowards their people for protectionbut they also operate with a theoryof how the world should beand one of the perhaps mistaken theoriesthat's prevalent right nowis that everyone looks north to countrieslike Japan and China and sayah Japan has a JCBand China has a China union payand we've got to get one of thosefor our country as welland the number of countries in Southeast Asiathat are all trying to think aboutshould we have a national SOEpayments companyis quite highand that may bea little flat footed in some waysbecause it leads it to becomemore of a rentier sort of businessand frankly not a businessthat democratizes paymentsI think the question that we'd love governmentsto be debatingonce they've come to the right landing placeand security and protectionis really a more fundamental questionwhich isshould payments be freenot just free to consumersbut a subject tocovering costs and variable expensesshould payments even be freefor small businessesand in fact should payments be the foundationof greater financial ecosystemsaround services and productsand that's a place where governmentscan have a wonderful public debateand encourage changeshould payments be freeand that debate is happeningI thinkif you want innovation and paymentsand particularly if you want peopleinvesting in securityand I think we all dopeople have tomy own viewis people need to earn a fair returnbut that's athat is a great debate to havecoming back to the security questionI thinkhistoricallydigital paymentsor e-commercehas beenat leastin some respectsrelatively high risk areaI thinkall economic actorsall private actors todayare certainly investingsubstantially in new solutionsto make the whole spacemore secureand that's somethingmust be successfulgiven the expected growthin digitalin the digital economythere isin additionlet me put thatin addition to the debate aboutfree or notI think we need to beginto have a debatebothhere in Essionand then around the worldon how we will securethis future digital economythe reality iswith the internet of thingswe have extraordinary opportunitiesand also extraordinary risksin terms of very seriousnew points of weaknesscoming into the systemif we're going to createa digital economywhere small businessesaround the worldare major actorsthey are points of weaknesspotential points of weaknesson issues like cyberand so onso there needs to bea wider conversationabout these issuesthat transcendsnational boundarieswe need moreinternational standardson these issuesand they are coming downthe road at usvery very quicklyI cannotmanage anotherpassword in my lifeperhaps you canwe need a bettersolution to identifyconsumers to devicesand this is coming at usvery quicklyand the work needs to beginnowglobal solutionand how about you Dr.Cheneydo you think paymentsshould be freeor do you thinkhow to break downthe barriersbetween the marketsyou see the barriersyou need to removethe barriersso that we canso that the paymentcan be donemore likehave more participationfrom the consumerbut againwe talk aboutthe regulationis the keyand we talk aboutthe KYCwe talk aboutthe entire moneylaunderingbut we canwe cantalk aboutlet's put itat the minimumbut at what levelthat wewe can sayit canget throughand howbig amountwe aretalking aboutthat itcan belike a questionneed to be askedunder thecertain regulationso againwe shouldallowa riskat certain levelwe talk aboutat what amountthat wecan let itthroughand whatwhat amountthat wecanask a lotof questionssoI thinkremove thatbut we cannotsaywe should nothave suchregulationwe mustwe should havebut atcertain levelto make itto easepaymentbut mostofwesince wetalkaboutthedigitaloneso thosequestionsuitlike acelldigitalI meandigital informationprovideso but againI just wantto highlight thatwe need to compromisecertainwhat levelthat wecan letlet it get throughand what levelwe shouldlike strictlyrequirecertaininformationbefore itcan get throughso yeahthis ismy comment to thatpolition if I may addI thinkit's a wonderfuldebate to haveand like every goodlike every debatewhere you stand on the issuedepends on where you sitand if you're a businessisn't the businessare providing paymentsperhaps you'll havea different perspectivethen if you'relarging the businessare receiving paymentsand paying that costbut what I wouldobserve is thatin the 1990severy telcoin the worldwas ratherrather anxiouswith the factthat the priceper gigabit per secondseemed to be fallingby 30% a yearalmost to the pointwheretelecomsbandwidth became freeand yetthereductionand costhas led tosuch an expansionin paymentin data volumesand our dreamis thatif paymentsbecome incrementallyless expensiveevery yeara little bitmore convenientmore secureevery yearthat createsan elasticityof demandwhich makesthe worldeven more prosperousbut how doesthere bea commerciallysustainablecome againhow doesall about operating costthe beautyof silicon valleyis that it takessomething thatsomeone has donebefore and makesit ten times cheaperit's sort of Moore's lawfor chipscould we createa Moore's lawfor paymentsit's somethingwe thinka lot aboutand it all getsto the heart ofwhat are yourvariable costswhat are thevariable costsin the paymentworldwhetherit be riskor fraudor securityor thisor thatcanworkputitit有很多新的技術有很多新的資料外面的資料 視頻通話例如我有一家在菲律賓的佩迷他們會考慮這個KYC技術你能做一句視頻通話在Facebook上基本上就會示範你的意見視頻通話那些KYC技術很強他們現在正在使用所以這個技術我們需要一種 open mind如何可以確認客人的意見和分析客人那是一種我希望公司會進行考慮另一方面有一點保護我非常勇敢兩天前整個歷史保護  globalisation等等兩方面最多的公司是 local ownership我認為Global companies have a certain way and they operatethey have global infrastructure這是非常非常困難to create islands oflocal ownership二方面是 local data centre最多的資料is moving to cloud now如果有些國家are insisting thatdata needs to belocally stored in a datathat's kind ofit just form over substancein my opiniondata anywayis in the cloudfully protectedand you need to worry more aboutthe security of the datathan where it is physically locatedthat is to me is meaninglessso those are the two or three thingswhich I think we aretrying to appealotherwise I think regulatorsare very progressivemost countriesthey've made tremendous progressin their thinkingin the way they havedrafted regulationsin the way they arefacilitatingand I think what's mostencouraging Singapore, Thailandthey don't necessarilyjust see themselves as regulatornow they are seeingthemselves as facilitatorsthey're creating regulatorysandboxesthey're encouraging peopleto join the ecosystemso great progresshas been made theremy hope in appealis only on those two aspectsof local data centerand local ownershipfascinatingso regulatorsas not just the facilitatoras the first useras the protectionof the consumersand also creatingthe level playing fieldso we have timeto take probablytwo questionsfrom the audienceand if you canread your handand alsointroduce yourselfa little bitand also if you askthe questionand tell uswhich panelistsdo you hope to answeryour questionhere the gentlemanover thereI thank youI workfor a mobile operatorgroupand I totally agreewith all the viewsexcept for the lastcommercerI think in termsof the regulatory peoplethe regulatorsI think we willI think we needto do a lot more workin trying to convincethem torelax the rulesin fact for examplein Cambodianon-banks are notallowed to holda financial servicelicensequestions with thatcomputinginfrastructureveryveryscattered about thatand how do we convince themmy question isall the argumentsare madewe heard ittime and time againhow do we getthe central bankersthe FS authoritiesto sit downtogether perhapsand come togethercome out withcome convince themright becausewe need them to moveotherwiseyou can talkand talkand talkthat's ithow do we getthem to talk togetherand you want to askmy question is how do wegetanybodyanybodymaybeDr.Cheneyyou can speakfrom the shoesof the central bankyes sothank you verymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanymanyCan we sit with the regulator?Yes, I think sit with the regulator who is the regulatorthe national back company in our case.Can we sit with the regulator and have the regulation in placeso clarify what the terracol can do,what the bank and financial institution can doand what is the ups and in the existing regulation.Because the existing regulation they saidit's terracol company if you want to providemoney transfer services,you need to find the third party processor.So this is the to me address in the third party processor.What is the role of the third party processor?What is the role of the terracol?Can I become the third party processor?Because the question also about the third party processorin the regulation if you choose one partner terracol already,can I choose the other partner?So this is the great part also we needif we improve the regulation likeif you apply at the third party processoryou can be partner with so many terracol company.I think it's not like a barrier.It's not the regulation not allow the terracol to doas a money transfer company.But it's the clarification in terms of regulation.It's already existed.But it's not it doesn't state clearly.If the regulation says yes as a terracol you can doand as a third party processor you can work with many terracoland then it's done.So is it difficult to work with them?I don't think they will decline for meeting.I think if put the effort together of the three partyinclude the bank financial institution,the terracol and then the central bankand National Bank of Cambodiaand all the third party processorand then put clarify on the regulationas in this service we can do.In Cambodia case I think.I think there's also an opportunityif I could add to point to other parts of the worldwhere more liberal licensing has produced great outcomes.So the money license regime in Europehas been in place for a long timeand has been very successfulin driving more innovation in that space.So that's part of the answer toois pointing to other examplesthat have worked productivelyin addition to the kind of capacity buildingI think that Dr. Chani is talkingor the capacity deep conversationon the details that Dr. Chani is discussing.I think that we should be mindfulto your question, sirof the fundamental realitythe political reality of much of Southeast Asiawhich is that there are long held beliefsand power structuresthat support oligopolies and industries.And in many ways regulationis one part John Stuart Millwhat's the best for the best number of peopleand one part a reflection of local lobbying.And it wouldn't be too far stretch to saythat in certain countries in this regioncertain established sources of valuecertain established players in the marketare quite keen not to have an atomizationof their industrynot to have 25 flowers bloomwhere today there are two or three.So there has to be a little bit of a mind shiftand perhaps even a sense of public good creationby regulators to say yeswe are bothrespondees to lobbyingbut also caretakers ofthe John Stuart Mill view ofthe social benefit.Thank you. Fantastic.Now we can take one more question frombehind you. Yes. This is Lydia.I run a companyproviding businessproviding work jobsto blue cardforeign workers in Japan.Ok.We are the thirdlargest economy in Japanbut if you look at these peoplethey are in bankthey don't have credit cardand their objective is tobring money to their home countriesbut they struggle for remittanceof course the high cost exchange rateso I would like to ask Nickwhat will happenyou talked aboutyou know benefiting the peoplewho are in bankwhat will happen to thisbroadway limitancewith your companya new business like you will beas a player.It's such a wonderful questionand I think franklyif I can be so directand forgive meif I hurt someone's feelingin the audiencethe cost of remittanceis I think one of the greattragedies in this worldwhen I say that Southeast Asiaand Asia more broadlyis one of the most expensiveplaces to be poorwhat comes to mind is thattwo hundred long linein Lucky Plaza in Singaporewe're incredibly hardworkingpeople torn away from their familiesare in line for two hourssimply to send a little bit of moneyback to mom and dador to provide for their childrenback home.So we dream of a worldand it's coming quite closewhere the variable costsassociated with money transfercountry to countryagain subject to securitykyc and whatnotare to a point wherethe most disadvantaged membersof societycan treat thisas a simple basic goodin their livesbecause what we care more aboutis not whether someone makesthe margin on sending moneyback to Makatior back to Quezon Citywe care much more abouthow that money is spentwhen it's brought back homeso we share your view, ma'amand I applaud youfor raising this as an issueok, it's a fascinating talkI would love to continuethe conversationabout running short of timebefore we closeI would love to haveevery single oneof our paneliststo use one sentenceto summarizewhat's your major takeawayfrom the conversation?let's probably start from the beginningI think one takeawayis that no one companycan do this on its ownyou know it'swe need to partnerthe global companiesneed to partnerwith local companiesthe global companiesthemselves need to partnermore closelyas we are doing nowand I think it needs to bea partnership approachthis is an ecosystemplay paymentsfinancial inclusiondisplacing cashit is multiple constituentsthere's merchantsthere's consumersthere's the ecosystempayment securityso no one companycan do itthe private sectorpublic sectorgovernment has to cometogether to do itand I thinktremendous progresshas been madein the last two to three yearsand I'm very hopefulremain very optimisticabout what's in futurein the next five yearspartnershipsoyeah thank youI shared with Rahulalso but in additionto thatI see thatthe inclusionof theI mean all segmentbecause when we talkabout thethe paymentthe paymentexperienceor the paymentso farmost of itlike touchon themiddle classI mean the low segmentthose who sellfish sellvegetable in the marketI mean motorbytransportationtooktooklike in Cambodia casethose aremost of the timeit'sexcludefrom thatpaymentpayment solutionso if we havethe payment solutionwherebythey can haveI meanaccessin theaccess to thatit willit willmakethe digitalpaymentit makethe subjectwe just discussabout liketo me againI want tohighlight againI like to seethis as oneof thepayment solutionthe payment ofchoicewhere they canchoicenobutincludethoselow incomeincludethoselikedifficulthavingaccesstofinancial servicesbeforebymeanofdigital paymentthe answerto this questioninvolves and notorto your pointit requiresa variety of playersto be engagedit requiresa laser focusongreat use casesthat solve actualneeds for consumersand small businessesgovernment hasanessential roleto playin drivingthe solutionsacrossallthese marketsboth as a regulatorand as anactorand we needto beana digital worldproperisone that willacquirefurtherinvestmentsfrom wherewe aretodayto whatwe wantto achievein termsof asafe and securefeatureand thatwork needsto be done.thankyouNikyou havelast word.I thinkmeans that,there's an 11 X ahead of us.That's an extraordinarily special feature to built towards.And I think all of us in this room have a deep responsibility and I think a tremendous motivation to want to make the future happen as quickly as possible...We end at a very positive note and thank you very much for participating in this wonderful debate and I certainly learned a lot.I hope the audience join me as well to thank our panelists for this insight.