 As you can see, and everything's minister can assume his job as the leading position in the government. We see an open and innovative communication between the two. And also we see her effort in reaching the older and the younger community. And we see positive impact on the digital transformation in the industry. Although, as you can see, as young as our audience in the room, Minister Tan has a great experience in his life. And we are really pleased and privileged to have Minister Tan to come to the room and then share with us and interact with us. So let's welcome Minister Tan. Hello everyone, really glad to be here and I see that you are still trickling in. And so for the next two hours or so, this will be an entirely crass source meaning that you will decide what I talk about. So if you have mobile phone or any device that can connect to the great internet, please go to this website, slideo.com, that's S-L-I-D-O.com. And once you're in this website, please answer this number without a pound sign. That's 001013 to this date. And then you will get into this anonymous chattering. Now, the reason why this anonymous chattering is that for many classes, when people raise their hand, I'm sure that you're all very willing to raise your hand and ask questions. But sometimes you kind of come down the shortness or the directness of the questions because of co-chapea pressure, whatever. But because it's anonymous, feel free to ask any of the right questions. Everybody uses your phone anyway. But in this case, it's asking that question. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is that if you see a question that you would also like to see answered, please press like to bump that question high up in the screen. And I will answer in the order of your questions. Now I'm going to sit down and introduce briefly my work in an administration while you think about the questions. It could be related to the reading that I kind of assigned, but I don't know how many of you have actually read it off. It's kind of a small booklet, as mean as provocative, so I won't be asking any questions, but feel free to ask me questions about this book. But feel free to also ask any questions related or unrelated to the very idea of open innovation over the revolution. Now I would like to share with you a few lectures that are on Air Force Base. Now it is the Contemporary Cultural Lab or CLAP. Now within CLAP there is a corner called the Social Innovation Lab, and this is co-created by hundreds of social innovators who make all of their own wishes like they should be in the kitchen, they should be in the kitchen, they should be in the kitchen. Resident chef, we should open at 11 p.m. every day. The ministry should come every Wednesday from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. to listen to people, and so on, and we grant all these wishes. And this is literally co-created by hundreds of people, and I am here every Wednesday to talk to people. And there's people with various contributions. For example, there's people with Down's Syndrome, organized by what we call she-handlers, you know, children are us, or carers foundation, who offer the paintings made by those people with Down's Syndrome. Turns out they see the world with a very different lens, and they're very artistic. So we are in this very playful atmosphere and experiment with all sorts of things, such as those self-driving tricycles that are sort of shaped like, you know, extraterrestrial beings, but they're actually one of the good symbol of innovation, because first, that they drive kind of slow, it doesn't hurt anyone, they bump into buildings or something, and second, it's all open source, meaning the source code, the programming logic of its operation is entirely open. The makers from the MIT Media Lab has a relinquishment of their copyright, so anyone can just take the brain of one of these creatures and just do some modifications so that it suits your own personal scenario. For example, walking or strolling along the Tchenkou flower market, you want to pick up some orchids and put it on those tricycles, and by the end of you hop on it, it drives it home or something like that. So some people work on Interactive Tourism Guide so that they can speak with you while its growth has historical buildings and things like that, so it's very easy to modify, very easy to change, and also because the data that it gathers is also open as well, so it not only helps these machines understand human society more, but also it helps the human society understand these machines more in the sense that we can enter into their mind and see how it, why it makes such a decision, why does it stop in this way, why does it confuse and things like that through kind of colored lights, and there's people also working on replacing that light, maybe into a face of a cat or a face of a dog or things like that to show the emotion that the machine is feeling, quote unquote, around their surroundings and so to enable a better human machine interaction. And so this doesn't actually make everyone a programmer or a coder, but it does make silver and vehicles a social object around which the people can have a real conversation. Instead of some abstract rules and regulations, this could be a new social norm, new social interaction that you can replay afterwards and go to the term and the right boundaries and the right to interaction patterns that we must adjust as a society to allow for these kind of creatures. So there's any number of experiments going on inside this experimentation set box, and so the real reason where we run a lot of samples is like this. It could be physical, it could be virtual and so on. It's because we want to shift the governance system from the previous entry system, which is epitomized by this. For example, people caring about economic development may talk with the Ministry of Economy on the left and people caring about the environment may talk to the Environmental Protection Agency on the right and that the invisible in between is a career public service that kind of absorbs attention and try to organize people with different interests that make a judgment, make a arbitration and things like that. And this is kind of the motive that I like before the invention of the social web. And after that it all crumbles down because first, people donate the counselors or the ministers to organize themselves anymore. Anyone with the right hashtag can easily organize tens of thousands of people. People really donate intermediaries as organized as they have the internet and the internet neighbors as the answering answers. And the second thing is that there's just so many emerging issues, right? The distributed ledgers, the machine learning, virtual reality, all these different things. We cannot just set up one new ministry or one new agency or one council for each emerging issue. And none of these emerging issues have clear belongings within the existing, you know, styled governmental system. So this is clearly a bankrupt model and so how should we fix the model? We do this by shifting the fundamental questions of governance from asking how should we organize people and how do we make, you know, balanced judgments into two different, very different questions. First, given those people's different positions, can we manage to discover some common values? And once we discover some common values, can anyone come with innovations that doesn't leave anyone behind, that makes it, you know, working or at least liveable that people can live with, those new innovations that doesn't leave anyone behind. And now if you have taken sustainable development, you know, girls' classes, that is the idea of the triple butterfly, meaning that new innovations must at once take care of their sustainable economy, sustainable environment, and sustainable society. And so when it was in New York during the UNGA, it's very easy to introduce to all the different people attending the UNGA the work that I'm doing. I'm just saying, you know, I'm working on 1718, 1717, 1776, and that's it, right? So out of the 169 global goals, I'm working, personally working, making reliable data available to all the different sectors, encouraging effective partnerships, and making those innovations open so that everybody can share it. And so the one example that I will use of this kind of social innovation before I switch back to this slide of questions is the Airbox. I don't know how many of you have heard of this innovation called Airbox in Taiwan if you have. One, two, okay. So I'll take maybe five minutes to explain this, I think, amazing innovation. So the Airbox is a really, really cheap, like less than 100 U.S. dollars, micro sensor of air quality. So you can very easily get a kit from many vendors. It's open hardware. And once you do, you can easily wear it around. You can put it on your balcony or on your school. There's many primary schools using it as a environmental education tool. And it automatically detects the PM2.5 levels, various different air quality levels of the surroundings inside that Airbox. Now, the idea, very simply put, is that you can measure the air quality that's closer to where you live, instead of relying on environmental protection agencies station, which may be more precise, but it's like 500 meters away or something, right? But that doesn't end it, right? So in addition to making it available and accessible and affordable, there is a community called the last community sponsored by people, professors in academia and syndica here that makes an online platform for everybody to freely upload and automatically, those IOT sensors, numbers. And now, once people aggregate all their numbers first, you can royally ally us and then you can take the longitudinal study to see how human activity affects those air qualities in a smaller scale than the sparsely located environmental protection agency. It doesn't end there. There is a movement in Taiwan called Go Zero that I'm a part of. Go Zero is this very simple idea. Whenever you see any government website, and you see that this website, for example, I don't know, the legislative, that is L-Y-G-O-V-T-W, if you feel that this website doesn't offer your service to your linking or that it could be improved or whatever, instead of pro-testing, you can just make a L-Y-G-O-V-T-W, a shadow government website that shows your vision of how this government service can make better in an open way. And so you don't have to do search engine optimization or anything. Anyone can just take any kind of website, turn their O to a zero and then get into the shadow government. And so this is the EMV-G-0-V-T-W. It's a Go Zero environmental visualization network that aggregates the sitting company's numbers and show it in a way that reflects the wind, the meteorological data and so on. Let's see how the air quality is going. But this is very unique, especially in Asia, because when I talk with various delegates from the Asian countries, they all point out that this would actually challenge the legitimacy of the central government, because if you measure a number and it's number A, and the central government publishes another number, which is number B, and when those two usually they agree, they put air instead of the one that's put in by the central administration. But perhaps uniquely in Asia, in Taiwan we see that the freedom of expression that's simply in so on is core value, they're not instrumental value. So the very fact that there are citizen scientists is a value in itself. So instead of fighting or competing with them, which is allocated a little budget to work with them. And this is what you call the SEVO IOT project at CI.Taiwan.GOV.TW. And you can also be CI as collective intelligence. CI.Taiwan.GOV.TW. And it's not just air, but also meteorology data, including water, earthquake, disaster prevention, and so on. This innovation has already spread worldwide. And so we aggregate all this data into the National Center for High Speed Computing. And so people with different models to this flow or whatever they can upload their models and use the same data, the same aggregate data from the different sectors to predict the weather and to compare and to generally do science. Because prior to this, when you have two different prediction models maybe one is more precise, but you don't know whether it's because they have better data or if they have better code. But now we have the same data and make sure that we cannot change or modify any data because before data they put it on a distributed ledger. They put it on IOTA. So using blockchain governance, they make sure that the government cannot change the numbers of the day before the election. So all in all this is a very interesting social infrastructure to make sure the parties all trust each other and based on the same data that we can make of innovations. And so the solution is not just pertaining to Taiwan but we can also spread it to everyone. Okay, so that's my 10 minutes pitch. I see what kind of things people want to draw me to talk about. And as a general reminder you can ask me any question during my answer and if you raise your hand then that leaves higher priority than the slider here. And so at any time, like including now, feel free to just raise your hand and start a conversation. Alright. And remember to light each other's questions because then you will show the signal whether you're interested in seeing your questions. The first question with one vote so far is this what will be in the future when everyone can fully control their digital data will it be a better world or in a mess? This is a great question. Now I tend to see data as a relationship, as a beginning of a relationship so to speak especially personal data. In many literatures you see data referred as kind of a tangible asset as accountable now, right? The term big data, the term data as the new oil, data as asset data, data pool, data lake, data whatever any water-related metaphor has been used to data. But I think data flow really is a flow of people-to-people relationship. I don't know how many of you here have at least heard of the general data protection directive, the GDPR of the European Union. If you have, please. That's great. So GDPR and this is kind of important. Please if you haven't heard of GDPR do redouble it because it is one of the most important regulations at the moment that talks about data as a relationship instead of as a kind of tangible asset. And the GDPR says if I have some personal data that I entrust an institution, a good governmental or private sector or social sector, if I entrust you to store the data, then you become the leader. Now we begin a relationship. At any point I can ask you have you been using this data that I entrusted to you for some other purpose that I did not anticipate? If not you have to tell me, you have to inform me. And at any point I can say this data describes me as of three years ago or one month ago and this is no longer accurate. I want to change the data and you need to give me this option. At any point I can say tell me what extra data you have aggregated from other sources about me. I would like to know it in a way that is unabashed. And finally it says if you have a lot of data, but I want to take all this data into a different operator so that those people can provide a better service and I would like you to delete all the data I want to you need to provide it in a portable form. And so all these is a relationship, right? I can ask for an account at any time and the data operator need to be accountable at any time. And the mechanism what we call privacy by design mechanism that makes this automatic and not at all time consuming for anybody involved is called accountability mechanism. And so in Mandarin Chinese we translate that into 問責 當責 and 課責機器 respectively. But it's all the same where in English really is accountability and that shows data accountability is a dynamic relationship. And so nobody really can fully control data around us. But we can say who is these data operators that we're currently having a data relationship with and then during their relationship to either earn each other's trust by making it transparent accountable about what kind of data is being processed what kind of purposes being used and so on or if they do not earn the trust at least we have the right to for example to be forgotten by that data operator and take our business and our data elsewhere. And so this is a relationship based view instead of a transaction based view you take a transaction based view it would kind of privilege large aggregation in a way that maybe you know it's all a pale shadow of your profile that's maybe three years ago four years ago it describes in one aspect of you that they're using for another purpose one particular example I would like to use is that when a large multinational corporation first roll out automatic machine learning AI based captioning for all the photos that people stored in their cloud storage they used data source called an image nut an image nut is kind of like a taxonomy textbook it's kind of like an encyclopedia that shows the image and the caption like before a dog there's any kind of dog and so for cars there's many kinds of cars and it's all tree like knowledge representation it is not meant actually to be used for labeling those friends, families, photos and so on but because it's one of the only really large scale open image training sources available it is nevertheless used to train the machine learning label of that large multinational and so the result of which is that when people uploaded friends, their friends photo and their friends are of African origin many of them are labeled as gorillas and this is a very bad situation I mean PR wise this is a very bad situation but human right wise this is even worse situation because in image nut that diversity is simply not there so when machine learning just takes a data set that is like nutrition labels that is not balanced in its diversity then it would tend to make predictions that contain bias that are nevertheless not imagined by the original providers of the data now had the data the image nut data donors understood that it would be eventually used for labeling a friend's face and things like that they would probably design a new data collection method they would probably ask for people's donation of around people of different ethnicities and so on instead of being used out of purpose and so on and so this alignment of the purpose of the data use and the initial purpose of data collection this cause for a long-term relationship the people can always look at what's being collected, what's being used and really understand as what we call data literacy so I think once people have this kind of awareness of the right that you have if you are a EU citizen to have as a GDPR subject then I think the world really will be in a better place because then we can always yes would you like me to use the mic to make that so I'm French and so I had to agree about the use of my personal data for example my Google account and everything I received a lot of emails and I'd like to have your opinion about I think it's better to have more transparency but really change really something because if you cannot don't agree with the data you are using you will not be able to use the app anyway so I've received a lot of messages from all my accounts like Facebook, like Google like a lot of things but all my friends me I was reading some of the things and it was really scary I think because I was saying so yeah now we have to tell you what we are doing and we do that, that, that, that but at the end you just accept it because you want to study the application so do you think it will really change something because people are more aware that they are not really reading and they are like yeah nothing will happen so I would be, I don't know if it's really a good advancement Yes this is a great question so the question is that is a network effect large enough that people even though knowing the vendor login and the privacy violations will nevertheless succumb to the network effect that's why the GDPR put in the data portability plus because at the moment everybody understands that if you use for example I don't know Facebook Messenger maybe some of you use Facebook Messenger I don't but maybe some of you do then in Facebook Messenger they have an end to end encryption mode that makes it the conversation you have visible only to you and the recipients of the message is turned off by default you have to actually click like four times to activate the end to end encryption in Facebook Messenger and when I visited Facebook HQ and had a conversation with their VP they did admit that what they call hostile design you have to jump through a lot of loops to get the privacy they want and the real reason of course is that they really find the conversation you're having is very valuable in targeted advertising which is their real business model anyway now I'm saying this not as an attack to Facebook although it may become true as such but GDPR at least just as you said makes it clear when you go to Facebook click download all of the data which they are kind of forced to put in there because of GDPR and then you click download all of the data Facebook knows about you and the instant messages and actually a lot more how they encourage all of you if you use Facebook to click that download all of my data to discover how much Facebook knows about you and so then people become aware that oh maybe I should switch to a different instant messenger and I mean there are a lot of great end to end encryption alternatives personally I use wire but people who design there are people who use signals there are people who use telegram and it's end to end encryption mode even line actually defaults to end to end encryption except for the stickers they know all the stickers you're using because it also shows because of GDPR very clearly that we collect the usage of all the stickers when and where and who you're sending the stickers to but at least the text itself and encrypted I mean at least erase the witness it shows that alternative is possible and the Facebook cannot disallow you to export your contact list and to switch part of the system I'm not saying that you're not using Facebook as a blog or whatever other I don't know live streaming or whatever features I use those too but I don't use it for end to end for one to one my subject and so I think it does make change after the GDPR and the forced disclosure of what Facebook knows about people probably was Cambridge Analytica we do see that Facebook publicly say that people who spend time on Facebook has declined which leads to decline to their stock price and I think eventually I think Facebook will eventually I think switch gradually away from the idea that you can you know use your instant messages store your text in your servers using that for advertisement analysis or sentiment analysis I don't think it's a very sustainable business model but on the other hand I don't run this book but in any case there are now sufficient alternatives around that particular practice of Facebook that I do see people switching to other end to end encryptives I mean Facebook still offers an alternative and so I think people once become aware of it there are sufficient alternatives that offers more or less the same user experience that lets people migrate piecemeal but this is not saying that one can certainly quit the network effect this is impossible but we can at least build different networks around different aspects of additional services so I mean this is a maybe decade long project but Facebook can find safe, useful and you know I would say equally detective but it doesn't sound right equally behaviour being person alternatives of those data silos and that's the answer to your question I hope that answers your question and other follow-ups to this particular conversation if not to the next one Do you think that the digital innovation will help achieve the sustainable development goals? How? Well the sustainable development goals doesn't say how it is by 2030 we need to be here but it doesn't say how we are going to get there and so without digital innovation the how is very unclear but with digital innovation we can do a lot of things for example the sustainable development goals has a lot of uses and I think one of the most interesting uses is just as a map so this is built literally by digital innovations here is the SDG index and dashboard report every continent for example has additional metrics and indicators that they care about and you can see how close each country is reaching their goals and which particular goals they still need to work on and all of this is built on digital systems and independent people in other sectors have built their own dashboards this is built by the GSMA the GSMA Alliance to work on mobile based that helps the goals and one of the great things about the goals is that the 17 goals all have different colors so just by looking at colors you can see which kind of end of us that people are working on using mobile technology for example if we click this one here we go so if you want to look at where people have been working generate quality that you can see people working on generate quality and climate action like billar water and things like that and if you draw down to it you can see exactly which projects they are working on what kind of CSR or USR or GSR projects that they have worked into and so on but it seems that you crashed the iPad so I'm sure that the GSMA people have some work to do so firstly it shows them what exactly each project is doing but I mean there are many indexes and reports around this kind of thing without the digital innovation especially automated accountable data it is impossible to even get the statistics of exactly how many people are impacted by each intervention and so this is the main challenge in New York people all say that each for example every country they report the kind of mining effort they do the education work they do the reduction in conflict in producing those materials and so on but it is very difficult to independently verify and when there is a direct intervention or involvement of international organizations it is also very difficult to trace the flow of resources and money and so on and so this is one place where digital technologies can help I hope this one doesn't crash for example when Nepal suffered flood there is a lot of people working here in the NCU UNUS social business center to work disaster relief and there is a budget based crowdfunding that lets you donate and for example send help to these people when Nepal suffered from earthquake actually the open street map people how many of you have heard of open street map sorry for the version but because we were just talking about something that is useful and doesn't collect your personal data and I figure all of you use google maps so how many of you know that there is a free alternative to google maps that doesn't collect your personal data from navigation like one person so here is a very useful alternative to google map that doesn't collect your personal data and it is actually contributed by the crowd so it actually contains far more locally useful data than google maps and it's very beautiful as well and I think pokemon go has switched to open street map which increases exposure but in any case when Nepal suffered from the earthquake the open street map team handled the satellite image that is taken right before and right after the earthquake and divide the satellite images into small grids and then the entire community at the time just rounded on each different grid and marked whether there is a bridge that's there and that's not broken whether there is a rail that was there that's not broken where there was an empty space but now attention has been set up with people walking through it and things like that and within I think 48 hours they completed the mapping of the before and after difference for the frontline people you know the red clause and the recrescent the UN people they actually send supplies to it they now know how to optimally route their supply route to make sure that it actually goes to a lot of people and that is a digital technology intervention that many people in Taiwan participated just by donating 5 minutes or 10 minutes time and now this one of course tracks the use of resources, money and goods and so on across borders and so maybe it passed through the UNO center then the local UNO center maybe also of course another intermediate organization into Nepal but whenever people make such a transaction it's all recorded on the distributed ledger called Ethereum, it uses the Ethereum public chain meaning that everybody can just look at the Ethereum and reconstruct these numbers without the help of this website so even if this website crashes the browser, if this website goes away you can always easily reconstruct how exactly the money and resources flows for this particular project without any possibility for the website to modify it without getting everybody's attention that they are modifying the numbers so it really increased accountability and we know for as a fact that once people know more about how exactly the money is being used they are more willing to donate for disaster relief and furthering the sustainable goals so that's yet another way in addition to browsers and crowd intelligence that's this kind of accountability mechanism helps the crowds to make judgment calls which relief efforts which humanitarian efforts are more accountable and then direct their resources to it and so on and so I think if you look at GlobalGoals.org which is the kind of canonical Pokedex of the sustainability goals it's the index of the documents it shows exactly how digital innovation universal trading system macroeconomic stability global partnership effective data measures of progress sustainability technologies used to be called appropriated technologies that are owned and understood by local people instead of like colonization and various other things so if you want to know exactly how technologies can help please look at FB217 and to a lesser extent 16 about the exact forms of digital innovations and how they can help I'm happy to respond on this topic like forever but there's other questions so maybe if people don't have follow-up questions we will go from so some people ask but information is power and good do I agree and what is my take on civic hacking such as WikiLeaks and should they be persecuted or not I thought knowledge is power but okay information is power too but information is a different kind of power though many of you including me before I run into this internet thing in 1993 when I was 12 years old living in the analog world think of power as a kind of top-down vertical power maybe when you hear power you already think of hashtags that's great then you think of power as horizontal power a vertical power hoards information and operates on asymmetry of information it operates on the principle that if the people on the top knows more people reporting to them it's less than they execute dutifully to whatever the people on top makes a whole overview decision and maybe this is a kind of command and control system in many systems that is not using information technology we're still seeing that power structure but people who are additional natives people who have participated in occupies internet-enabled movements my first one was in 1997 it's from the Blue Ribbon movement where people see that the I think it's the Bill Clinton's government try to censor the internet for indecent material and making sure that every website have to ask for a miner to identify their real name or whatever so that they don't see you know, demographic or whatever materials but it's done in a way that is very blunt and it actually makes small and medium publishers very difficult to survive on the internet and so everybody protested or the website that this became dark and everybody put Blue Ribbon on it and that's the first time that I understood the internet not just as a place to share information but also to mobilize people's common aspirations and make a call for the government to leave internet alone essentially and so that is when I got into this community called Internet Society which makes the case that internet is sovereign by itself and it's not reporting to the US or to the United Nations ITU although they do work with them but internet itself so far is ruled entirely by radical transparency, radical participation and not answering to any governmental bodies or any electoral bodies it is the largest multi-stakeholder system that's currently in operation but it doesn't have an army or navy so it may go away, right? so if you have some time feel free to participate and know just a little more about the internet common issues and so I do agree that it is power but this kind of power horizontal power, micro power, new power there's many words to describe this kind of power it's stronger it doesn't hold information it makes it clear that information can steer and that is actionable you can already contribute to the pool of information as I showed about the air box or about people's participation on mapping from a poll or a donation or any call to action that is actionable and also this kind of horizontal power make sure that it's connected whenever you do a donation or an action intervention of this kind you will share it with your friends if any of you may remember the ice bucket challenge that challenge is very boring if you do it alone you just put some ice water and it doesn't let anyone know about it it doesn't feel good at all but then people share that video around and pack a few friends of theirs so that they understand the humanitarian cause a rare disease that affects people and show that we're in solidarity in fundraising for these kind of people and I think it's very people's condition starting but I think this is very interesting just by connecting people's actions people feel that we're part of something a larger movement but the third thing equally important is that it's accessible so that's the ACD principle actionable, connected and extensible extensible means that nobody acts that the hashtag simply put so I mean I get to use the SDG icons because nobody's going to sue me by using those icons and in a very similar way the GovZero movement explicitly release the logo of GovZero as creative commas meaning that we relinquish even the attribution rights so this is completely in the public domain and so anybody can just take this trademark thing but not actual trademark actually preempt it so that nobody can trademark it and then start logo chapters so like next month actually the GovZero.Italy is going to form and they're going to start with the same project that the GovZero started in 2012 which is a visualization of their national budget and making sure that each part of the budget become a social object that people can have a real discussion around it now because GovZero relinquish the copyright so in Taiwan already we have a website called join.gov the TW like join government Taiwan so after 4K are showing the government what's possible it gets merged meaning that the government now instead of prosecuting the civic hackers as the questioner asked we would just harvest the result of the budget visualization so now in join.gov TW actually you can see all the central administration ministries all those 1300 long-term admission projects everything that's more than one year project even completed once like 51 of them and just see exactly where the budget has gone and the KPIs the accumulated use of the budget which procurement, which spendings that they have done and things like that and it's all publicly released data and each of them is a discussion board so anyone can ask questions and a real living career public servant will come forward and answer your question without going through the parliament's arguments and so for example this is the Kimman Bridge the Kimman Bridge has a accumulated completion rate of the budget of 100% as of 2016 but then the accumulated completion rate becomes 80% and then 35% now you don't have to business major to understand that the accumulated is meant to go up instead of go down and so there's people asking if there's something wrong with the center now their orthography is not exactly perfect but the people understand just what they're asking about and then of course the career public service came forward and really answered and say you know our vendor really is not executing very well and then we have to cancel the contract and they gave us back the money and we have already found a new vendor and so on and that is why the shape is like this and now the career public service they often get calls from the MPs from counselors from the media or whatever but each person who makes the call doesn't know that this same answer has been answered 39 times by the same career public service and so that means that there's a lot of extra redundant work to be visualizing the budgets making sure people can find the public that they care about and have a real conversation everybody else afterwards can just google and find the right answer and then if they just trouble email the same public service all they have to do is copy paste the URL to them and then done which is why the career public service really liked this system as well because amorphous that saves them time over time and so this is why the F-Zero movement to Ottawa Toronto New Zealand Italy, Madrid, Barcelona and things like that is because all these things are actionable you can just go in there and sign a petition and do something connected to it to the public so that people gather around and contribute and extensible meaning that you can all take these because you're a moniker and then do whatever in your country and so this F-Zero principle makes it a minima that spreads and so in recent history of course like me too is also another AC principle that really spreads across boundaries across different social media settings and things like that and so we're going just to see more and more use of horizontal power or new power in the information society and I think if you agree that this new kind of power is complementing but not reinforcing the vertical power and just as the minister Fula has said, you know, if you see an O system that's broken don't spend your time to fix it make a new system that eventually make the O system obsolete and that is exactly what we're doing now and what's my take Wikileaks well, I mean, they're journalism and many of them are basically taking each country's take journalism and pushing it to a logical kind of logical end and so it kind of forces every country or every government to take a really deep breath and look inwards and think how exactly are journalistic freedom core and how much is it instrumental and every society has a different standard and I'm not here to judge any other society but I wish here just one visualization with you, which is the Civicus monitor, I don't know how many of you have seen this this is a global monitor, like Freedom House but it focuses on the space of civil society, the freedom of expression, assembly and journalistic freedom and things like that so as you can see if you come into Asia I want to say only principle yeah, so I mean literally this is not saying that we're doing better than New Zealand, Australia or Nordic but if you click Asia you click open and all you have is I'm sure Taiwan right, so and this shows that this is part of our identity at the moment, the maximization of journalistic freedom the maximization of people's freedom of expression the government is completely trusting people through the joint platform, a participation platform referring to things like that but we don't ask the citizens to trust people, we think we need to earn that trust from citizens many other countries are doing exactly the other way around the government doesn't trust us but asks us to trust the government which is called fascism by the way but I'm not here because as other governments what I'm saying is that here in Taiwan we find ourselves as putting the civil society and the rumor of civil society first and which is why we tend to encourage the civic hackers and engage the civic hackers to feel that they're contributing to democracy as well and get to meet the president everyone's in a while and things like that one event even became the digital minister I think people would like to know do you participate in any smart cities initiative how do you think digital transformation would impact cities development is the next and most I'm the advisor to the regional city smart city initiative I'm a co-chair of the Asia Connecting to Silicon Valley the dot is pronounceable the Asia Dot Silicon Valley initiative as well as the digital plus initiative and all of these are related to smart city and I will use a concrete example to talk about the kind of smart city that we're talking about yes this is one of the function smart city demonstration sites that will open later this year I think by the end of this year right after the election and so this is the Shadoen smart green energy science city it is right next to the high speed rail station so it is like this that you can very easily visit and once you go there you will see lots of self-driving vehicles around and participating in a lot of simulated experience for example the round trip of the goddess here called routing I don't know if this translates or not but in Taiwan we have a lot of very unique traffic situations with motorbikes, with people holding the goddess and crowding various different streets and so on so it's very important that any self-driving vehicle and those kind of local traffic patterns before we unleash it to the unsuspecting citizens and so all of this is meant so that people can see first half just like in the zoo how those new sentient ish animals behave and the kind of way we use to build a smart city is by having the social innovators many people innovating to make things better for everyone to challenge existing laws and regulations and so this is my main contribution I guess is sandboxorg.tw which is bilingual and hopefully doesn't crash there we go sandboxorg.tw very simple is that if you have an idea that improves a city and that you find that existing regulation prevents you from executing your idea or that you are unclear whether this is allowed or not because the regulation simply did not anticipate it you can just enter your use case, sandboxorg.tw and a team of very well-paid and therefore pro bono lawyers will make sure that the local municipality actually understand the case you're making take some time to meet with you and then basically just do the regulations to your favor now that why this is not intriguing or beloved is because all of this conversation is open people who have different takes people who have reservations and so on they can all comment on this kind of around table discussions and even if it actually brings along for example if you want to introduce the self-driving vehicles in a way that could potentially harm people we make sure that there are sandbox environment that are designed to be safe like the Shaolin green energy city for people to actually have a lot of mileage to encounter such hybrid vehicles and so by the end of this year we expect to pass the UV sandbox which basically the legislator says if you have any innovation of this kind it could be a car that flies or a shit that drives or whatever they can just break the law for a year but they have to first have to be under public inspection in the Shaolin or some other area for an extended period then the risk factor and the data sharing just like those self-driving transports must be declared now then the Ministry of Economy will make sure that you are working with the local municipality to actually solve a local last mile problem of transportation and prove your business model in addition to your technology and after a year approving it maybe people decide and so we thank the investors and somebody else will try a different angle using the data that you accumulated and it is a good idea maybe it gets expanded in scope and speed and so on for another year and now if the regulation change after two months of announcement then people say okay it's a good idea and then your fork of the regulation gets merged into regulation then we request a law change the MPs may take up to four years to deliberate how exactly to work the law during which you get a defect monopoly by continuing the experiment and the business model and once the MP decides on the exact wording of the law then that becomes a new line of trade and you have competitors and this is already the case for FinTech we already have FinTech sandbox and the first case is already approved which is using your mobile phone to open a bank account without providing two photo IDs because you did that when you get your SIM card for your mobile phone and even if you don't have a credit history with the banking system you already had a banking history with your mobile phone provider your telecom provider and so they use that to calculate the kind of loan that you can get and so this is quite innovative it breaks quite a few regulations they're given a year to break those regulations and see how things work out but if things do work out it becomes part of you know the life and so on and for a platform economy we also have like the National Development Council if you have a private parking lot that you want to share with people in your city but only for 8 hours a day like when you go to work or something you can install one of those simple IoT devices that blocks people but if you pay through mobile payments then it lowers down and then they can drive into it there's many SMEs working on this technology here in Taiwan but then previously the Ministry of Finance said oh so you're operating a parking lot and so you have to pay all the taxes and it seems like which makes it very uncomfortable but through sandbox people said if you through amongst on average every day you provide less than 8 hours per day then you're not really operating a parking lot and therefore not subject to the same parking lot regulations and so before we introduce sandbox which is the one stop that everybody can apply here and they will find in this industry there's many more actually the NCC can give you an experimental 5G band for communication and things like that anyway people enter here and then there's sandbox laws in various different ministries and prior of engaging the smart city innovators prior to the sandbox phase 2 phase office hour system the current public service when they see an innovative application they have 2 choices they can take a couple days and reject it it's very simple everybody knows how to do it or they can take a couple weeks and reinterpret the laws and regulations to make the innovation they give it a room to have a push quite some work and so by default by default reaction they kind of just reject those innovation proposals this is what consistently happens especially around the continental system law here but starting this year with the sandbox we're seeing a drastic change because when a new application comes they can either take a couple weeks and interpret it so that they can operate or if they reject it then it enters the sandbox and they have to spend a year with it and so the current public service faced with this choice almost always choose the interpreting things so that people can get away with the experiment so we're seeing a drastic change on how the current public service receives innovation and so it's a kind of smart city that I think is driven by new innovations given a chance to prove and I personally tour around Taiwan to meet people where they are and how exactly their experience has been with those social innovations this is quietly and for example people can teleconference in from Taipo and when I visit the 12 ministries related to social innovation are in the social innovation lab near the local market and seeing through my eyes so I'm like an investigative journalist or whatever they see through my eyes how the local people is reacting to those new innovation and when the local people ask questions they must answer immediately or at least after two weeks after each meeting and everything is transcribed everything is published online so previously if they reach out to single ministry ministry A they can say oh this is ministry B's business B can say oh this is C's business but because of everybody is in the same room they don't tend to do that so they will confess among themselves and figure out some way to actually make things work to those social innovators so I think this again is a way to let people to share their feelings without taking individually four hours of train to Taipei to give their 15 minutes presentation which is loose off the context this is a contextual way to do smart city governance I hope that answers the question any follow-ups yes so very quick is what are the initiatives that you are taking to in terms of the smart city security because obviously smart city has to utilize a lot of data in terms of personal data or just like open data what's been done in terms of security of not preventing the system or the smart city impact or the information that either the IoT devices from your personal phones or smart vehicles being used like that yes that's a great question so just for the record the question was about what measure has been taken to impronse cybersecurity of especially IoT devices like cameras and to protect it from being hijacked by malicious actors I think that's the question for example in IPCAM actually we do have a security certification that basically requires for the IPCAM to actually this is not a draft anymore this is already done it's kind of out of date but anyway this gets the idea across we have a cybersecurity act cybersecurity for information and communication act and it's going to take place next January first next year and as part of this act it makes sure that in all the different government agencies even municipalities and local agencies and critical infrastructure and so on there are dedicated cybersecurity people white hat hackers that work with the government and in my office I have already been experimenting with the to be passed cybersecurity act by having certified ethical hackers working with my office and making sure that the office software that my office use personally is an open source platform for self-housing web apps and so all this is free to use for all the government officials anyone who has an email as in G-O-E-T-W can use the chat room which is rocket chat which is like Slack file storage which is like draw box path management which is like hello hack md or either path for document editing there's an online spreadsheet as well either calc which I wrote and things like that and so everything here is open source is auditable and we work with white hat hackers over six months they go through it line by line and they have like three CVEs for minor vulnerabilities which are like metals in their trade and we make sure that they are paid well that all this is in public and that we partner with other digital nations there's a group called digital nations previously digital five now digital seven but they're just going to call them digital nations now that agree to share these open source technologies so that we don't have to spend too much effort to reinvent the wheel but can instead pull our resource around technologies like Sasselor that has a proven cybersecurity auditing history and also I think of note is that because we encourage the cybersecurity hackers to kind of do penetration testing way before the malicious people do we set up a sandbox and just invited them to work with us it enables them to contribute in a way that is visible so that they don't go to the dark side which always has more cookies they don't go to the dark side they remain in the light side and that we make sure that they're part they're seen as part of our defense in depth design that's all the including smart city but not limited to smart city all the government projects starting next January will allocate five percent at least to those white hackers to do penetration testing auditing security proof by design privacy by design and things like that and this is for the largest public projects the smaller projects must allocate six percent the smallest project must allocate seven percent of their budget for cybersecurity and so we make sure that there is an ecosystem for thriving white hackers so that people will study cybersecurity in Taiwan can find very good employment and also special status so that again they don't go to the dark side that's the answer are there any follow-ups? Yes please do Related to what you said about the foreign government has to answer the same question over and over again to media or to I don't know so how are you doing with the education like with people so how do you tell like all the people that you have all this information there that they it's free to use because currently like in my country we don't have that kind of stuff it's just far away far to away from us but here I see like you have all these resources how do you like educate people that to go there and find the answer that it's already been done it's already been resolved? Yeah so Google that is the standard answer we make sure that everything is very easily searchable so that for example in my website the public digital innovation space we make sure that all my blogs or projects and things like that are easily indexed and are like puppets by Google when you search for the right keywords and I literally publish everything that I'm imparted so in any even internal meetings that I am a chair of I publish the entire transcript after the public service and all the stakeholders who attended edit for about 10 working days and so this is not your average government transcript this is basically exactly what people have said and exactly how and when people have said it so this is a shape like this and so you can see everybody saying thanks and so this shows the policy making context now we kind of hijack the SEO by giving every utterance its own URL its own page so that every sentence that anyone said in any of the meetings that I'm a chair of and gets its own URL but then it's in context so you can also see it in context sure that when you Google for things the right utterance shows up so this is the first line the second line is that we work with the civil society that comes to your community for example so this is both Taiwan I'm sure some of you may have heard of this project mentioned somewhere so this is both Taiwan again this is a go zero project it basically takes whatever information that's the central election committee have published which you correctly pointed out that the data is all there but why should the people care so the go zero community basically take whatever open data that people care about and then you can find I don't know a counselor we're in the north I guess we're in Taipei City and we're in I'm sure and then you can see all the people running for counselors here and they make it kind of fun by showing a complete record of their previous campaign donations how exactly they're spending the money how much votes they missed or did not miss which other positions they have worked on and they also agreed or disagreed which particular policies in their city council and so on and in general just make sure that it is an interactive fun experience to learn more about your city counselors and make it engaging and by the way I'm not particular to this particular counselor if you refresh it actually shows randomly a different order so that a different person now becomes the counselor that's shown first which again it changes into a different order so it's not partial to anybody so in any case we rely on the civil society to indeed gamify the system to make it into interactive games that people will find interesting to engage and we use another example which is a hot topic nowadays which is real-time clarification of misinformation and so again the executive one which is the administration's homepage we make sure that whenever any day at 7am we see that there is misinformation spreading around there's a rumor about something that we perhaps know something about then within one new cycle usually within four hours or so the government will the responsible agency will just contribute their version of the facts they know so this is like piecemeal getting people to get into the habit of not spreading misinformation by the way but rather wait for a couple hours and then we come up with our answer but of course civil society may then come up with their answer as well they make sure that this is like a play by move by move dialogue instead of a rapid spreading fire or things like that but I mean not many people go to just having this information out there is not very useful so again because there are people not staffed or paid by the government works on an interesting gamified bot in the instant message system line and the line system basically as I said is end-to-end encrypted so people really don't know and this is not gender bias by the way if you refresh attention to a different relationship every time you see a pattern here so basically you add this line bot as your line friend and whatever you see a rumor you can spread to it and you can reply to it and then you will send it to a co-created fact-checking system and get back to you like whether this is misinformation whether this can be approved and things like that and this is all public you can see everything is already like but you can see what is trending nowadays in line usually this is you know people don't drink this with that or things like that even if we're pretty close to the election still food and medicine things are still dominate the current spam arena and anything I mean I won't show it for too long otherwise people suffer collateral damage but what would I say here there is an active and vibrant suicide that makes it fun to just make sure that these things are collectively fact-checked and that people can also fact-check and there are some personal feelings that are neither right or wrong and so again just by engaging people and making sure that people can engage in a way that is maybe just a few seconds just by sharing something to a line bot we see what's trending as rumors or misinformation and if you have a couple of minutes you can look at it fact-checking and maybe contribute a hybrid leak or two and if you have a couple of hours every week then they have actually face-to-face meetings every Wednesday and to work out all the rumors and do more in-depth fact-checking and things like that so basically the civil society the social sector takes care of everything that is relatable to people and making it fun and as a government I think our duty is just to make sure that we don't lie to ourselves if we do we correct it as quickly as possible and we make the clarifications in time and we make it in a structured open way without any copyright or license restrictions so that the civil society can use it as soon as we publish the data but the last mile is in the social sector of the civil society ok, people are ok moving on we're in the age of the forest industry revolution we'll see a fellow world economic foreign minister which gave rise to artificial intelligence machine learning, blockchain and big data how do you visualize the fifth industry of revolution that was a great question personally I think so I'm going to speak personally on that note I have a power button tattooed in the back of my bank and it kind of symbolizes what might take on this thing I happen to think that at a moment we have collective intelligence which we already talked for an hour or so about collective intelligence we touch a little bit about artificial intelligence or machine learning or machine intelligence but we did not spend much time talking about how to bridge those two together in a way that is what we now call extended intelligence meaning that instead of an individual human individual machine or whatever we feel that we're part of a larger system and we do participatory design in a way that is not just designed for users but rather for the entire ecosystem and now I understand that this is all very abstract so let's just there is a website that I am part of it's a bunch of people Joe Ito and people from IEEE the person who did GDPR and things like that and it's a loose bunch of people called globalcxi.org the Global Council on Extended Intelligence and this is our vision for the fifth industrial revolution and it includes three basic parts versus intelligence and autonomous technologies inspired by principle of system dynamic and designing that is participatory the second is to reclaim the digital identity and then finally think outside of GDP rethink our metric for success and these three are very deeply entwined and we're basically just writing recommendations after recommendations for for example how UK should work with employees that are AI powered to not manufacture addictiveness but still can bond usefully with children and how children's privacy and concept means and things like that so very interesting topics and these are the people who we're working on and so if you want a complete picture review please look at it in globalcxi.org but usually I don't use that many words and so I will just read you an poetry so two years ago when I became the digital minister I had a compact not a contract with the central government here there's three working conditions that I already alluded to first is location independence whenever wherever I am in the world I am working in a capacitive digital minister that allows me to work anywhere in the world and working with Taiwan instead or in or at Taiwan so that's the first thing location independence the second thing is voluntary association I don't go to the minister of defense and say tomorrow you're going to open up your process that's not going to work I only work with voluntary people and so I approach at most one person from each ministry and they together the 22 people forms my staff but they all get salaries paid by different ministries so we're a little multi stakeholder community within the national development and the third thing as I alluded to is radical transparency we'll make sure that whenever we're doing a policy making we get a feelings of people and using machine intelligence really to get what people feels about for example self-driving vehicles we send people this kind of this is called PolisPLL.is open source surveys but the survey are written by fellow citizens so you will see a sentiment around a particular emerging technology by a fellow citizens you can agree or you can disagree and as you agree or disagree and this is already clearly transparent by voluntary association you see yourself moving like an avatar moving among the clusters of people feeling the same way but then after answering a few yes or no questions you may be inclined to share your own sentiments for other people to resonate with or not but one thing you cannot do here is there's no reply button so the trolls have no place to play and you cannot make it at home in attacks or based on cat pictures or anything like that all I can do is contribute more feelings for other people to resonate and so basically just by holding the space of dialogue we always see after a few weeks people agree to disagree on a few divisive statements but they focus far more time of this other consensus statements trying to refine more new and more eclectic ideas so that people can collectively deliver those shared goals and common goals what we call collaborative learning when whenever there's emerging technology this is remarkably different from normal social media where the picture is like the other way around the more people talk the more they become and we design the spaces so they can converge instead of diverge over time and through this method we did the regulation around Uber's sharing economy quote-unquote in Taiwan around platform economy we did all those regulations that was using this methodology just by gathering people's consensus and so this is the kind of collaborative learning that I'm alluding to and AI is a facilitator it is a space it automates the way of a lot of those chores but at the end people feel that we're part of something and that can collectively design the kind of future that we want to bring about and so two years ago when I introduced all this around the world the Taiwan government wanted me to be the digital minister to work with people inside I wanted to kind of popularize the system and they asked me for a job description and so instead of a long job description I just wrote a poem which I'm going to read to you now before moving on to the next question and goes like this when we see Internet of Things let's make it an Internet of Beings when we see virtual reality let's make it a shared reality when we see machine learning let's make it collaborative learning when we see user experience let's make it about human experience and whatever we hear that the singularity is near that is always remember that the plurality is here and so this is literally my job description and this is the kind of work that I'm bringing about you may or may not call it the industrial revolution but I do think that this moves quite a bit the existence scope and the WES and the cost before the industrial revolution five people says how do you define with reliable and with data the amount of information available on Internet is huge and too much resource would have been assigned to classify it now this is a very top-down hierarchical thinking it used to belong to editors of the encyclopedia Britannica and also Incarta and also other encyclopedia and we all know that they get supplemented by this crazy anarchistic collective called Wikipedia and so the answer to this question is that we don't classify it any tree like classification any taxonomy is going to fail spectacularly because as I mentioned there's just too many emerging things for people to silo and any existing taxonomy so instead of taxonomy what we're now doing using all this acknowledge that just mentioned is what we call focusonomy is a real world where focusonomy focusonomy is hashtags focusonomy is ad hoc chatroom groups focusonomy is a mental disadvantage out focusonomy is a distributed ledger that can have a soft fork or a hard fork basically focusonomy lets people classify information in a way that doesn't impose a set order the kind of information out there but instead of relying on the free flow of bi-directional information to make sure that people can build upon the intertextual ality of the information at heart so just think Wikipedia and you have an idea of what kind of intertextual ality that I'm talking about and so whether something is reliable or not is not objectively judged is not entirely data-driven it of course connects to our own lived-in experience as human beings but we can use the data, use the information out there as excuses to gather around to form communities to have a conversation, to have a lecture like this and things like that and basically make each of these information a reliable way to get people's attention to focus on each other instead of detracts us from each other and this is what I mean by instead of virtual reality let's make a shared reality if people just reinforce our opinions in a field of bubble and so on at the end of it the bubble would just contain one person and one very isolated person but if we make all the data and all the information social then the social fabric itself will make sure that people trust each other and rely on each other more treating data or people as nouns or as entities we tend to think it as verbs and the relationships that a life inhabits as as kind of vehicles of the living relationship now this is a very anonymous view but if you come from a Austronesian or indigenous origin that when I was in New Zealand I had a long talk with the Maori people there that is actually the natural view of things and they even signed their company law to give a seat to a river and they think this is perfectly normal the river can have a board a seat in a board there's people from the crown and from the Maori community speaking for the river the river can take damage the river can sue for harming done to it and things like that it gives a river person food and so if we can extend the boundary of what we think as legal person then I think this kind of reliability expands much more because we can circle around even environmental data not as some code numbers but as a projection of a living being a river god or whatever that speaks to people and this is not a familiar view for many people learning in a more reductionist or realistic upbringing but in Taiwan with the dominant religion being the folk house religion this is perfectly natural and so this is the kind of world that we're taking on the information available and reliable social data and the question is is big brother watching you and as the big brother watches you you also watch back to the big brother and and I mean that it's true right there's a word for it actually it's called susveilins it's a very wordy word there's a real word it's been around for quite some time there's a wonderful picture we can read it just explain the concept very well I don't even have to explain it so susveilins drawn by steve munt's 60 year old called her illustrated surveillance versus susveilins steve munt is also part of the global council extended intelligence so basically steve munt has been wearing these things around since 1998 or something and basically this is making sure that the accountability goes both ways this is making sure that whenever something happens there's sufficient amount of corroborations from different angles to making sure that there is a shared reliable reality around things this makes things much easier actually nowadays with Instagram and things like that that people are bringing a camera around that can kind of do what steve munt did using expensive technology which is part of the norm and we really are living in a world of susveilins and people are generally establishing social norms boundaries and so on for example in our collaboration meetings people have to first agree everyone to get live streamed and because people holding the camera is not being filmed this creates a power asymmetry so we always prefer for example a 360 camera in the middle of the room so that it doesn't privilege anyone or if there are multiple angles they can be stitched together it's a videogrammetry so that people can relive the experience when we design the room design the system we make sure that people share equal power of susveilins instead of being dominated just by the person holding one single camera so the singularity of the camera is the problem the plurality of the camera with the sufficient discussion deliberation of the social norm is less of a problem and we are totally living in this world now so if you feel watched by the big brother you can watch back and this is one of the civic tech companies it's called Watch Out so it makes sure that it's just called Watch Out and it makes sure that it watches for example all the different legislative hearings all the debates and things like that and feel free to support Watch Out because they kind of enabled this possibility of susveilins in a way that empowers independent journalism and encourage independent journalists so it is a fertile grassland for the civil society which I'm sure is why they call it the Watch Out there's five people asking how to battle fake news from spreading all over media and so nowadays fake news is well so both of my parents are journalists like professional journalists I never used the f word fake word myself to refer to news this is not just out of filial piety but also because I think this word is very unhelpful it describes two very different things it describes a journalistic mistake a real journalist making a piece of news never the list contains this information because they, you know, get rushed by their editor to publish a story or whatever but it's still journalism it just contains this information or it can refer to something else entirely some maybe malicious maybe not organization spreading this information under the veil of looking like journalistic outputs while not holding themselves to any journalistic integrity and indeed just mocks the journalistic layout of that message now this we call disinformation fake news may refer to journalistic misinformation or even refer to disinformation and when I talk to Mayor Ko and Jane Taipei he thinks it refers to neither of these two things he thinks fake news refers to a real piece of journalism but published with a misleading title he thinks it's fake news so it means very different thing to many different people which means it's very unuseful and helpful in the front of journalism when we talk about disinformation or misinformation and so first I'm going to use the word myself but feel free to continue to use it I'm not going to censor it right or not that kind of society now I think that this question refer to disinformation that is to say intentional spreading of information that is that the spreader even knows to be wrong at least the first one the spreader knows to be wrong first I think of it in terms of an epidemic of a virus of the mind kind of like flu or influenza so you don't actually negotiate with the flu because it's not in the same category they're just not human beings so it's like spam it is something that is created because there is economic or political incentive and I still remember in 1989 or 2000s there's a bunch of people working spam wars myself included things like that cool project names decided to combat spam but at the end spam did not become that large a problem but it's not because one single government has any draconian law or a single technological invention has been done or that people have secured email servers of the internet or that people have flagging spam as part of their habits or that people have used larger email vendors such as Gmail or Hotmail it's a combination of all these spam each factor increased the cost of spammer by a little bit and decreased their expected return by a little bit and at some point it doesn't pay to send spam anymore and then we don't see spam being sent after that much and so around this information we're going exactly it's a multi-stakeholder picture we're working on email literacy starting next year basic education the teacher is going to be non-authoritative any teacher of any kind need to discover emergent information on the internet talk with the student discuss how they frame it what kind of agenda the information sender is trying to get and things like that and basically teach critical thinking in the basic education curriculum and that is the real fix I think for the next generation but still for this generation we're also working with the co-fact bot which is being adapted to WhatsApp and I think many other misinterpreter or whatever forms and then there's also the talent fact check concentrate and other independent verifiers increasing journalists the integrity of course real-time clarification from the government and things like that said we're improving the ecosystem so that when people see the basic information it would naturally be that their first expectation to respond it with it is real or not so this is actually very useful even these four words by itself is very useful social innovation because if you see something that engage with the part of your brain that enrage you that want to spread our rage it does help if you must type something in return it does help if you type question mark is real or not because then everybody takes a deep breath and actually does have some mental room for source tracking for verifying for comparing different sort of things instead of being hijacked by the emotion that associates with the picture there's many other devices and tools that we're helping developing to tone down the emotional load and stress social media on people and things like that but at the end I think it's up to every individual to think deeply and listen deeply around all the different sides of a public issue like the deliberation that I just talked about was air quality, was Uber was whatever once people did listening deeply to people we become immune to PR agenda around that particular topic and that I think is a real cure and the question nowadays is that people educated in the previous regime before the Marshall look has lifted were raised in an environment where there's one standard answer is filled in a certain way is written in a certain calligraphic style is spoken by certain rulers with a space before their name and things like that in Taiwan so it creates kind of a backdoor to their minds that the virus of the mind and the memes and the disinformation kind of piggyback on and this kind of media literacy for adults raised in the Marshall era that is also something that this kind of inoculation device this or that kind of media literacy can really use help intergenerational solidarity so basically having people armed with the COVAX thought or whatever to explain very patiently to their grandparents that not everything printed with the photo of who she is spoken by who she or things like that and I think that again is a multi-year project that we will eventually prevail we have some an hour left has information become the most important currency nowadays no I don't think so I think the most important currency nowadays is trust it is the most scarce resource mostly because in the early days of the internet people have this theory of swift trust if you see someone on the internet using the same keyword as you use you tend to trust that person immediately and start working on projects together that was the internet in the early 90s and people created the whole theory of swift trust how people trust people random strangers over the internet and start collaborating and trusting the intimate details of one's life and things like that that was the early days of the internet so it turns out that swift trust is possible because of a psychological mechanism called projection or here we translated as nobu feeling in a head field whatever nobu so it's a projection of course could be a very vivid it's what this stuff the dream is made of so it's very vivid it feels highly personal but it's often wrong and you see that even nowadays with a live stream or with a sky car or whatever if the resolution is 720p or less you don't see the micro expression of the person talking you don't really know how they feel about this particular thing unless you're watching it on a 4k or 8k video so again in a low resolution or mid resolution all the micro expression is lost and we end up filling in those micro expressions with whatever we project on that person a very famous case happened the day before the previous presidential election there's an actress that filmed a particular film that makes everybody project very different things on it and actually maybe helped the actress I won't buy a larger landslide than she already would have won for that particular election but had that film being filmed in 4k it would not have the same experience it would not have the same effect the whole effect is born out of projection and so because now people are gradually becoming aware that internet social media relies on this kind of projection there's kind of a detachment people are generally becoming aware that this is like selling addiction and addiction to elemental projections and so people start to go the other way around that is to say a large distrust of any information that people receive from any media channel whatsoever and so that makes trust become scarce and sometimes people want to recover it through algorithm saying blockchain governance the math guarantees this property of the system and you need to trust the math but not everybody is a mathematician that's the main problem or people say A.I. will make unbiased decisions as long as you feed the big data and sample data it is trustworthy more so than any person on the other hand it doesn't have to correct this so basically the old text-based normativity of what people read on news or so on the trust level is declining this is called democratic recession by the way but the newer normativities the code-based ones build on blockchain or whatever automated systems and database ones build on machine learning or whatever has not yet gained legitimacy in a way that can replace or even augment the old text-based normativity so that means that there's no social system that's scalable at the moment that everybody regardless of background or ethnicity or cultural background trusts so I think that is the most scarce resource and that is what we need to be working on and this is the currency nowadays that we are improving what is the most impressive recent digital innovation there's so much of it um yeah I don't even know how to do the game but I think at this particular moment I would still say that the very fact that the internet is still not that the internet managed to not organize itself and not taking over being taken over by people insisting on centralizing the internet itself and so on I think internet governance itself the society that runs the internet that managed to stay independent despite all those nationalistic agenda to take it over or fragment it remains the most impressive I mean it's been around for 40 years or so but in the early days it doesn't suffer so much from the attack the malicious actors the cyber war the state actors trying to organizing it and it's the one but nowadays the internet itself the governance of the internet itself is under unprecedented stress but still the internet governance still managed to hold on in a way that still invites everybody to join any stakeholder can still voice their concerns the core internet standards are still done in a way that is not exactly that is still cause of their requests for comments instead of succumbing to any sovereign nation with an army and a navy so I would still say that internet protocol itself being reinvented many times over hardened secured after Snowden switched massively now in Taiwan to the version six of the internet protocol after the exhaustion of IPV4 resource those very basic claims that are largely invisible are actually requires constant struggle to keep open in a way that is not being captured by any particular interest state actor or multinational cooperation so I would still say that internet governance the society itself is the most impressive and still with the reasons just the two decades digital innovation does the ministry live in position change my mindset and original thinking and how meaning that I become a copy of myself or something no I still think I do a lot of things in any case I think that the position affords me kind of a unique perspective as a conservative anarchist working with a governmental system the last time any anarchist took a ministry opposition I think was during the Spanish war or something so quite some years ago before the digital revolution I mean we do have anarchistic political politicians that mostly writes poetry like me Brigitte something from the Icelandic pirate party is a very good example but Icelandic pirate party I mean she did not as far as I know become a minister so far I'm still the only one doing this but there's many and these around the world that are calling themselves radically central centrist or conservative anarchist or politician now so we're a bunch of people who basically see politics as something that is undergoing a collective reimagination that we're insisting on never commanding anyone or taking orders from anyone and we've always done that in the open source and open cultures and some of these and want to push the envelope and see how far the political system can go tolerating and working with and struggling with people like us who insist on radical transparency and of course there's some push backs for example I don't get invited to any military drills whenever there's a military drill I just take a day off so I don't know where the bunkers are because I cannot touch any state secret you see because of radical transparency this surveillance also gives in to you know the government itself and so I basically say any top secret any confidential information unless you know you want to make a big situation please just don't send it to me just please just bypass me so that is kind of a compromise I have to make as additional minister for radical transparency but then on the other hand the Korean public said this loves it because previously if things go well the ministry can auto credit and if things go wrong they get auto blame and this is a pretty bad idea for them so they don't tend to talk around much about the innovation that they're making and the worst case they just make a few innovations and they get shut down by the minister but because of the in the drafting stage the FOIA law the freedom of information law doesn't allow people to publish drafting stage information the people never know the context or the why of policy making but because it's part of my three compact I say you know every meeting that I'm chair is required for people to know so I just publish and then now the public service can see oh they have very good ideas they're under their own real name whenever they see people complaining about the work that they do their instinctual response can be something other than defending the minister because the minister hasn't been defending instead they can just invite people over so for example there was a petition last May that says our tax filing system online is explosively hostile to its users I think that's the right translation and the e-pedition is full of negative energy I'm going to spare you the content but because we have a team of participation officers or PAs embedded in every ministry they just talk to those emergent people that's about to go to the streets so the minister of finance I think within 36 hours just posted a global invite to everybody who complained about the tax filing system saying just by virtue of you complaining publicly you're now cordially invited two weeks after to the ministry of finance and we can co-create the tax filing system together and the depth creates a kind of almost magical effect before that posting 80% of petitions was like calling the minister of finance to step down or blaming or a lot of ad hominid attacks or whatever the invitation 80% of which become constructive criticism people start donating their expertise and things like that because they know that their voices will be taken in to the co-creation for jobs which is live-streamed and people can participate over the internet as well and this is the petitioner and he's so angry because he is a user experience designer and so he's an expert in this kind of things and he just cannot take for example there's an explosion of words so barrically confusing I don't know how to translate this or that last year the tax filing system at the end of the user journey there's a little mascot that pops up that thank you for the contribution to the society some of you may know it and then people pointed out you know I don't feel well finding tax already so please don't try to make me feel better just shorten the experience and things like that and all of this we don't harmonize the words that people put forth on the internet everything is collected in this kind of shared user journey import and we use the standard user journey, agile development, co-creation or some facilitation methods to invite all the people who complain into co-creation and now this flips around to ministry, public service relationship if this things go wrong it's all my fault because nobody really is doing this but if any of this goes right then the current public service lets the people who petition see how professional they are and also learn from the professionalism from the people who complain about it this year we made this become this which is of course much better but we can always make design much better if we spend enough budget but this has two unique points first the budget for this is actually negative because some person during the co-creation workshop pointed out rightly that we waste too much computational resource by preparing for the same computational resource every day during May which is a text filing period actually only the first two days and the last two days requires this much computational resource because that's when people file taxes anyway so we use elastic computing clouds with the technology to make sure that we don't spend more than we require during the text filing session and that's a massive amount of government budget and we use only a fraction of which to run the workshop so this is a negative budget sexist story and this year I think the approval rating for this system is 96% or something but even the remaining 4% of people don't get to the street because they know that if they come back to the channels that they already do trust with the participation offices their ideas will be taken into account in the next year's text filing system and so again this system is not just this it becomes the social object around which the people can have a real conversation about so I mean my role in it is just to absorb the risk really if things go wrong it's all in fault but on the other hand it's all those people who complain making the co-creational policies so it doesn't change my mindset I'm still seeing myself as a channel as an amplifier of the collective intelligence but I think it does allow me to view things from the perspective that involves scale of participation that's previously very difficult to do as a independent researcher or as a civic hacker or even as a consultant with Apple or Oxford University Press it's very difficult to find people who feel so passionately angry about our product and service so much so that we can harness their collective intelligence into co-creation this is a unique position that can attract like the lightning rod the collective you know emotion and then creative potential of people which is the same thing that's right so we have yes we have a call up yes I have a question about this is possible in Taiwan I mean as you pointed out on the freedom of expression website yes the civic this is possible for Taiwan in 2018 but I mean for example how could you or what suggestions would you make for countries which have problems with freedom of expression because I think all of our societies have this same thing that where we as a collective we want to express ourselves and improve everything you know but if you do this in Guatemala they will try to shut you down you know so I want to know what suggestions you have for the rest of the world right easy question isn't it so I think the answer is 3-fold I can answer as an individual I can answer as Taiwan's digital minister and I can also answer as kind of a poet as someone who just try to frame discussions because you know a poet just like a philosopher we don't hoard information a poet that holds information the bad poet doesn't get remembered so I think I can answer in 3 different levels as an individual civic hacker I do work personally still secure communication tools digital education that assures people of secure communication in the situations where all they have is individual mobile phones that use bluetooth to connect to each other and there's no reliable internet transport because when people occupied the parliament in Taiwan that was the first few days and we did provide communication support even in that adverse situation where there's no reliable outbound internet link available so as an individual civic hacker we are still working the mesh networking self-organized like the secure scuttlebot which is weird name but which is like Facebook but it operates in a way that can be disconnected or connected only sporadically things like that so we work on technology that enables self-organization and making sure that people can still do activism even if they are in a hostile regime where the connection with the outbound internet is unavailable or generally unavailable since storm is actually one of those technologies that runs perfectly well on your Raspberry Pi or on your laptop and can still power group where even though you are shut off of the outbound internet so that's as an individualologist as Taiwan's digital minister my role is mostly proving that opening up this much space to the civil society actually doesn't harm the legitimacy of the government that it sometimes recovers the legitimacy of the government that sometimes makes people trust the government more just by co-creating tax filing or the healthcare experience or whatever experience people trust each other more and therefore also the legitimacy of democracy more and as we spread this story I think it makes a lot of sense for not just the digital nations that developed democracies but also people who are kind of torn between whether we go more authoritarian or whether we go more democratic a clear example and some ready made tools that doesn't charge them license fees that can nevertheless be used to improve their democracy and that is actually this year we added digital governance next to agriculture, technology medicine or whatever to our ministry of foreign affairs a list of exports and so to anyone who may or may not be the official diplomatic ally of every democratic China government and anyway anywhere in the world as long as we work on the same system regardless of your diplomatic status I'm happy to help both personally and in my official capacity to increase the legitimacy of the democratic governance by exporting this system and we work with various other nonprofits and foundations and various other international organizations to do that and even with the UN we don't have an official relationship with and nevertheless appearing as a robot to many meetings so one of which is live streamed many more and it's not live streamed and working on curriculums and so on together so that's my official capacity and as a poet as someone who think about things I think our main export really just like the global council on extended intelligence or the global future council which is sponsored by the GSMA or the UN SDSN the Sustainable Development Network which is powered by people who think a lot in Vatican all they do is think a lot very deeply about things I mean they are a very good ally and also to talk and participate in the Vatican hackathon actually and I think we ally with people who think very hard about these kind of things and create new powerful narratives that makes it attractive for people to think about fellow citizens as fellow citizens and not as quote travel makers I'm quote and I think this is only possible if we show that it is a natural tendency for people to antagonize people who don't look, who don't think who don't speak or whatever like each other and so this is the kind of narrative we're now making is through efforts like Como Boys which I highly encourage you from very different countries and backgrounds to participate we engage with global sojourn process like Mozilla that basically allows people around the world anybody to donate their voices and you can listen to people recording and press yes or no whether they actually spoke those utterances correctly and there's many many different language communities and here many of them what we call low resource communities mean that they don't have sufficient cloud to convince Microsoft or Apple to do collection for their community and societies and at the end of this year we're going to pass the National Languages Act which makes Taiwan a place with 22 or 23 official languages and all the indigenous languages there are a lot of them and everything it become official languages and any school can teach calculus or physics or whatever in any of those languages and the Ministry of Education must provide sufficient database for anyone to learn anything in any of those languages and a lot of machine learning work that we're now doing is making sure that a few people who can teach physics or astronomy in Amis or in Panza, an indigenous language gets an AI boost to automatically transfer learning that corpus into Sakilaya which is very closely related to not quite Amis and things like that and through this kind of solidarity we can make sure that people feel that they are keen to each other living on the same island and not because of that this indigenous nation only has you know 50 thousand active speakers the other one only has 5000 active speakers there were somehow we are superior to one another because using digital technology we can fluidly translate between those different cultures so that's I think I have two more minutes any last questions yes I was talking more personally in the sense to understand how much strain how much stress because it seems like social damper you said that when things go well the honor is for the ministry when things go wrong is that there is your own responsibility so how do you find your work interacting with the other ministry because of their reception is there any kind of stability or they accepted your work wholeheartedly because it seems to me it's very innovative what you're doing it's very transformational any transformational activity like transformation and leadership ensures a lot of personal stress so what's your motivation and your goal yes my hobby is trolling again I wrote a blog about this in 2009 so it's at least 10 years I've let the world know that my hobby is trolling again and trolling as you know that will make toxic comments on the internet so it's my personal hobby to engage with trolls and whenever I see anyone mentions me by name and write 100 words that are ad hominem attacks trans misogyname or whatever I engage with that part of this person maybe it's 100 words I pick out the 5 words that are constructive where they review something of their own experience and focus on those 5 words and make a complete reply sometimes a video reply sometimes a type reply to those 5 words and to make the entire social media know that I'm willing to spend an equal amount of attention but only if it is a constructive part and the non-constructive part is as if I don't see it at all and the trick of doing it is on the question so the trick why am I and how am I doing it is that I see a certain word maybe it makes me feel upset or angry or whatever but instead of you know replying it which is a visual to visual memory I use cognitive behavior theory trick which is accept the visual stimuli and create a stimuli in other modality which smells really good or I play some music that listens and that feels very well and so I also create a non-visual stimulus that is pleasurable and associate that visual stimuli with something that is pleasurable in other modality and it creates a new memory that is nevertheless part of long term memory because it's a new stimuli and so through this CBT trick which is actually more closer to ACP but I mean this is also a psychology class so anyway so by accepting this visual stimuli and responding it with another sensory stimuli the next time when I see this combination of words I think of the pleasurable experience that I have associated with that so after 10 years of practicing troll-hacking pretty much any name calling or any word whatever it is on the internet triggers a happy memory it's literally impossible to offend me with words now or with imagery or whatever because any visual stimuli I just pose it out this way and so then I get to Vegas and I get to respond on the substantial part, the constructive part and more often than not the troll gets reformed I literally invite them to the social innovation lab and I sometimes just give them a hug because the trolls are like this because they crave the attention that they don't get from the real physical world because they don't give each other I don't know if they don't receive enough hugs or kisses or whatever they don't get caring enough so they wake up feeling very empty and they figure the only way they can get attention is by writing toxic words on the internet which they do get attention by people feeling upset and shouting at them but on the other hand this is transactional this is not a relational like I said data is a relational so by the next morning they wake up to still feel very empty and it's a different set of people they offend and a different set of people who give them the kind of junk attention that they crave and the things doesn't go well for them actually it's a mental illness and so just by focusing on the authentic part of their utterances and engaging in a full modality often with a recorded video people will learn that first they can get attention if they reveal something authentic about themselves and second the internet really exists as an invitation as a medium for people to meet physically and give each other a hug and once I give them a hug they always just get reformed they try to be pretty decent people which is building their own and I think that is the kind of trick that just motivates people together together around the social innovation like this and my true motivation really is that when I was young and I dropped out of high school I also felt very lonely not many people in my neighborhood care about the neuro-society or hermeneutics or whatever things like that and then I discovered the internet and the community was willing to engage me in an authentic way and people who offer to fly me to places and offer their home for me to stay and things like that and I'm just glad that the internet has done to me when I quit junior high school and I think this is making the internet by and large a better place thank you so much and I should say now you see what an innovative digital minister we have here in Taiwan thank you so much for such a great sharing