 Boom. What's up everyone? Welcome to simulation. I'm your host Alan Sakyan Super pump to be talking about holistic mental healing. We have Jonathan Tony Ola joining us on the show. Hi, Tony Hi, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me super pumped for this episode It was awesome meeting you at the consciousness hacking party that we were just both that yeah a couple weeks ago And after striking up a great conversation to you I was like this used to happen and pump for this those don't know Tony's background Tony's a graduate student at California Institute of Integral Studies CIS focused on psychedelic therapy trauma integration and developmental Psychology and you can find his high-existence writer profile in the link in the bio as well as his Facebook profile link All right, Tony, let's start things off with one of our favorite question ask our guests What are your thoughts on the direction of our world? Big question, yeah I Think it depends on what you're reading and what your intuition says I mean if you read Steve and Pinker the world's getting better and better. We're on an upward curve, you know and if you read someone like Chris Ryan or Derek Jensen For what's going or the news for that matter, you know The world's not doing too good but my intuition Tells me that we're a caterpillar Going into a cocoon disintegrating into the chrysalis Hopefully be reborn in something more beautiful What do you think some main principle that we need to embody for us the most? Effectively fly like that butterfly Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think we need to process our trauma and confront our shadows Mm-hmm. I think a lot of the reasons why we have the crisis the many crisis that we have right now is because of Disconnection from nature. Mm-hmm because we're disconnected from ourselves me and so Dive into that work that personal work figuring out your trauma Figuring out what's blocking you from connecting with other people in the world around you Dealing with that head on so it's almost as though then we're born as this Gorgeous gem that can express itself creatively and bring beautiful fruits into the world Yet there's some sort of like maybe like a Dust or some sort of stuff on the gem that makes it like harder to shine So the idea is that you kind of have to like polish it off to polish yourself Well, I'm not sure I've Are you familiar with Charles Eisenstein at all just very recently. Yeah. Yeah Well, he he talks a lot about Civilization and you know the the harm that it's done to this planet, but he sees it more As a journey a necessary journey So although we come into this world perfectly perfect beings the descent into Chaos and having the dust to come on her is part of the Overall journey and it's necessary part Yeah, yeah Supposed to be a hard game, right? Yeah, it wouldn't be interesting Interesting otherwise. Yeah, you like We always make the joke like you come and you like immediately know that you come from source And you know your north star and like it's super easy to get there and everything else around you Just the cake walk and be like this is boring But then when all those things have chaos involved in them it becomes more fun And that's why apparently there's a long line of VI the long list line of people that want to come Souls that want to incarnate Yeah, we're the lucky ones I Let's talk about your journey. Mm-hmm. Who are you growing up and how did you get interested in what you care about today? Sure. Yeah, so I grew up in a small island in South Carolina Hilton Head Island Grew up in a immigrant household my family's from Brazil and Had a pretty you know standard normal suburban upbringing But I was always very curious about the world and always asking questions, you know as kids do But I kept that curiosity with me for up until my adult years and So in high school I read a lot of philosophy and Read a lot of psychology and one big triggering event for me was the death of my best friend in high school How do you pass? It was a car accident. Yeah but so that event Kind of like shot me into this deep dark depression and asking deeper questions about death and the meaning of life and And that was a very challenging time And then one summer during college I Tried psilocybin mushrooms and that totally blew open my mind and Maybe come to terms with this death and a lot of the questions that I was grappling with at the time about meaning about death and life and So what were those realizations then? That fundamentally we are Okay Hmm, and that there is purpose and meaning to our lives And do we create that purpose or meaning ourselves on our journeys or what is the fundamental? That's a good question. So yeah, I've been grappling with this notion of fate and free will. Yeah. Yeah, we just create our own purpose I think it's probably my sense is it's a mixture of both. Yeah Do you feel like it's one big artistic expression of creation that we're all in Yeah Yes, as Carl Sagan I'd say we are the universe experience itself. Yeah. Yeah Absolutely, okay, so then yeah take us past the psilocybin experience. Sure. So after that experience I I struggled to make sense of it and integrate it and Decided to drop out of college where I was going to USC at the time and Spent some time in Colorado Just reading a lot diving into Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle and just really trying to make sense of what happened and eventually stumbled across CIIS Found out that Alan Watts was a professor there And my heart everything just clicked. I was like, that's where I need to be And so I planned Accordingly and made it happen. So Okay, and that's how you landed then to do your undergrad studies there. They had they had a bachelor's completion program Yeah, so since I dropped out I still had enough credits to Be accepted and finish within a year. And then how did you? So this is a CIIS is such an interesting place Yeah, the professors they're very interesting like you just said that like Alan wants and whatnot But then also the disciplines there are super multidisciplinary and then that's actually what you got your Bachelor's in this multi-disciplinary studies interdisciplinary studies interdisciplinary studies. So then Walk us through that process. Like how did you get to pick what you know, this is a very important thing Actually, actually, I would like to really plant a flag and how important this is Because I agree Just like is this we're just we're we're carving ourselves Into these ruts of like I'm going to only go for econ or only psych or only CS or whatever and it is It's disheartening sometimes because You know a lot of people in life Succeed when they combine two disparate fields together or three or four or ten And then you get a more robust world view and it actually makes you a better Dialectic with your family your friends co-workers people online. Yeah, anyway, there's so many good reasons Why yeah, why don't you speak about this interdisciplinary perceive? Yeah, sure. Yeah Well, I think you you're absolutely right But that takes a lot of work and time to dive into different aspects of knowledge and reality And I think a lot of people are scared of The uncertainty that comes with that because you know, if you just pick econ or engineering or business, let's say You have a pretty clear path in front of you right if you're just cherry-picking about you know philosophy and this and that and that There's a lot more uncertainty there But I think moving into the future it's going to be a crucial skill, you know our world's becoming much more complex and You know, it's not just a matter of us becoming multidisciplinary thinkers. It's a matter of Combining these experts in siloed disciplines together to form a multidisciplinary collective intelligence. Yeah Yeah, and you were as you were speaking you would also remind me that as soon as we open up more positions in the post study period of people's lives that initial study period when we open up positions that are for Interdisciplinary thinkers and doers and creators then that'll make it like more like you have a clear track Like when you say I picked these five disciplines and then yours like damn, that's a good set of disciplines get into this Position that we need help with yeah, yeah, like that. I mean a lot of As far as I understand a lot of companies and Silicon Valley want You know to hire philosophy grads. Yeah, they're just so well-versed in a bunch of different disciplines Yeah, and it's also becoming more and more important to have philosophers and ethicists Aligned with the bio engineers and the neuro engineers and the AI engineers and watching devs all this type of stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah Let's talk about your journey with spirit So Tell us about it. I really love a relationship Okay, how's so yeah, so I grew up Catholic I went to Sunday school first communion the works, right? Committed Catholic growing up and Once I started questioning Catholicism and exploring atheism a bit more. I just had so much resentment towards religion and anything that could be considered spirit and then eventually when I had a psilocybin experience I found out what the meaning of God. Yeah, it was. Yeah, I Was shown What religion is supposed to give you yeah, which is a genuine mystical experience and connection with the divine And ever since that trip You know I have moments of despair and doubt, you know, but by and large I have faith that spirit is guiding My life in the world at large Mm-hmm. So what does the connection with the divine feel like for you? Mm-hmm Sons of deep peace mm-hmm And as I mentioned earlier about one of my insights for mushrooms is sense that fundamentally everything will be okay. Mm-hmm Interesting how does one balance the Peace of everything gonna be okay with this What we just were talking about with this need for philosophers and ethicists to be paired together with these exponential technology builders You know, there's like kind of like a you got to have a little like fire under your ass to like do that Yeah, yeah, yeah, because if you're just like I am at peace. I am at peace Let me just go off in a mountain and how does how does that work? How does that balance? That's a great question? I Don't know if I could speak to it in words, but I do I do have this impulse to Make the world a better place and fight for justice and love well at the same time Cultivating that sense of peace that I know Is it at root? What we are You take us take us to a like a basic decision like you can either choose to Do something related to your hustle to bring change to the world for the five-hour chunk of time Mm-hmm, or you can choose to like go take a hike by the ocean, you know, mm-hmm. These are hard decisions They're very hard. I Wish I can give you a simple answer Prescriptive you just do this. Yeah Intuition's been guiding me in that regard Figuring out what the next step is when is it time to act when is it time to retreat? Mm-hmm Yeah That's that's been cultivated that intuition has been cultivated over the years. Where do you feel intuition? Just like my belly button belly button, right? This is like a gut the gut feeling yeah, and I I I start with that and I How does it feel filter it through? How does that feel the intuition? Yeah? Yeah Well depending on what the decision is or what the question is Sometimes into it intuition could be a sharp constriction telling me don't do this Other times it can be yes. Go forward. Okay, and that's a very more like euphoric. Yes, exactly And then where does so where does that travel through you or you're saying it's traveling through somewhere? Sure. Yeah, it's I definitely filter it through logic to reason and reasoning. Yes And if those things align, okay That's my north star. Okay. Yes. Oh interesting. Yes, and then when there's a Non-aligning disconnect. Yeah, then I need to take more time. Take your time And then this is kind of like how you can take your life on this Where you feel really connected with spirit guiding you but at the same time you're still Making these decisions with the combined sense of intuition plus reasoning to decide and you can be patient when you need Right. That's really important. We'll be patient. Mm-hmm. Yeah, patience is in short supply nowadays I want enlightenment in a five minute video If you guys aren't in line by the end of the video, you're doing it wrong. Oh, yeah This I grew says is so well that we spend like 12 years learning a language, but we want enlightenment in five minutes It kind of puts in a perspective like Yeah chill out and invest the time into Working and evolving your consciousness over time Yeah, and at the deepest level there was no rush, you know, Jeff Brown says the soul doesn't know a thing about deadlines. Yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah, interesting at the same time though. It's like within the north star there is some sort of like a I Do have Some sort of goals that I want to bring to the world during this north star journey So technically I don't want to maybe I want to get one of the goals done by the time I'm 30 instead of my time I'm 60 and stuff like that. Yeah, I think it's important and the example you bring up is to Really connect with that intuition instead of the conditioning that tells you I need to have X before I'm 30 I need to have Y. Yes And then what about your We talked about this a little bit on the journey with omniscience So that's a bit about your first lake south side of an experience Tapping into that. What and what does that omniscience? You said it feels like peace that like all is In the direction that it's going it's like along the Dow this path the way Happening. Yes. Well, I can't feel like it can't feel like Sometimes the journey is not so pleasant Yeah, sorry, but so what was it takes a lot of work Yeah, just so just looking for more a little bit more about omniscience But we kind of touched on that and then you mentioned this a little bit earlier But a lot of the indigenous wisdoms are pointing towards our disconnection from nature being the reason why we have so many of the Love lenses and how that you said that for like that first principle that we could do to be a butterfly Civilization is by tuning more deeply inward And also by tuning more deeply with nature letting that tune us like a fork. Mm-hmm. Let's let's do The relationship with trauma and this holistic mental healing Sure, yes Yeah, well Regarding holistic mental healing trauma is one piece. Okay. It's a very important piece I would say are we all born with some sort of either like ancestral trauma? I would say so, okay Or we get some trauma within the first like a couple months or years of being child or then within our teenage years There's always some I mean it's impossible to do one guy who goes through life without accumulating trauma. I Would call bullshit, but I mean Stan Groff says You know the birth is a trauma Interesting. Yeah, and and a bliss at the same time So trauma and ecstasy You just yours like that. It's just trauma Yeah, well, I guess it can be both I'm thinking in terms of just the The constra being safe in the womb and then this Constriction and birth into this chaotic new environment. Ooh, especially as a baby. That's like a very traumatic Whoa experience and Stan Groff has written a lot about this people when they have All atropic breath work sessions they can oftentimes Access these memories from birth and the pain and suffering that they felt from birth. Oh my goodness. Yeah Just from leaving the container of the womb into the chaos Yeah, like people can go back and like remember that and he says You know, a lot of people have issues with like constriction they process that trauma in the holotropic state and issues resolve Hmm, it's incredible. Okay. So yeah, so tell teaches about these processing trauma techniques Yeah, and these so that's only one part of the holistic mental correct. Yeah Well, there's a lot of different ways to heal trauma One of the most important pieces is to feel safe to find a safe container to where you can process Trauma a Lot of times you'll have to have Someone supporting you or guiding you. It's very difficult to fully process your trauma without Having it short-circuit because you just can't do it on your own So with you know psychedelic therapy MDMA is really useful here because It gives you that sense of safety, you know deactivates the amygdala which is responsible for your fear response It heightens activity in pre-fertil cortex. So that combined with psychotherapy the safe container and the guidance support All very conducive to healing trauma Reconnecting with your body is very important when you're traumatized You dissociate from your body. The body is a dangerous place Hmm, right So any modality somatic practice that helps you re-embodied yoga breath work different forms of exercise massage, you know Okay, so Could for those that may not have like access to a psychedelic psychotherapy. Yeah It's something like Like what Ori does with holding space is that? Can we find like maybe a friend or a relative or something like that? How does that work for trying on trauma integration? Yeah, I mean I'm Still learning a lot about it, but my sense is that sometimes if Your support system Isn't Why is it knowledgeable enough the trauma it can re-traumatize you if it comes up and it's not processed properly You can re-traumatize you so it's important that whoever is there to support you You Know what they're doing. Yes Okay, so if we have like an experienced Healer that we're sitting down with then someone that can also Help us realize that we ourselves are the ones that heal ourselves not like a bear a guru or something Yeah, but right so the basically the better the person that we sit down with the more we could even Potentially get away with not needing that like a psychedelic Psychotherapy or stuff like that some personal some people it's like hell. Yeah, let's do that for other people It's like what else is there that I can try as well. And so it's cool to see the different Potential paths that one could do for this. I think it depends too on the severity of the trauma. Hmm. It's a very severe trauma. It's best to get some like proper support But there's many traumas where you can just chip away gradually on your own through those modalities that I mentioned Yeah, there's a really like I mean really simple ones like ones fear of like swimming pools or You know, just like can you look at a swimming pool? Just look at this. Sure. Yeah, can you look at it? You know, you just like start like titrating yourself to like put a finger in exactly Yeah, yeah, voluntary exposure to what you fear. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, that's it in manageable doses Titrated voluntary exposure TV Exposure, that's great That's actually I would say a really big principle of it. Okay Alright, so then What are the other aspects of holistic mental healing? Yes Yeah, so I would say Diet is a big one. Oh, you know, very fundamental things proper hydration sleeping But but diet specifically a lot of Diet is very muddy waters to dive into, you know Everyone's biology is different. So it's it's really about exploring and experimenting with what works for you Some people can have gluten some people can't you know So getting that in check is important It's kind of like feeling Really tapping deeply into how you feel after you put stuff in your body Intuitive eating intuitive eating. Yeah, practice and like Harahachi boo like eat until you're like 80% full or so Don't overeat right like a main principle, right? Yeah intermittent fast intermittent fasting is a massive one Don't just be like constantly eating things all day long, but like Just have a meal at noon and a meal at six or whatever and then just wait until the next day Mm-hmm, and like and again, some people can't do that. They're metabolism interesting love for it So, okay, so that even that principle of intermittent fasting is could only be good for like 80% of people I don't think right. It just depends. Yeah so Yeah, and then Hydration you said yeah, so the water is also one of those things where it's like certain people are like two cups a day Others are eight cups a day. Maybe I'm like running a shitload in the heat and so I need more water Mm-hmm Again Taylor specifically. Yeah, to you. Yeah depends on your exercise and everything intuitive drinking intuitive drinking Yeah, and then also, you know Relationships is a big one having nourishing fulfilling relationships Finding work that you find nourishing fulfilling The environment is a big one that people often leave out, you know the the spaces that are around you more broadly society at large You know, I think we have this spike in depression and anxiety and mental health issues It's not because we're all genetically predisposed to it, right? There is something happening in the broader environment that is contributing to this epidemic that we see It's why we in many ways why we left downtown, San Francisco. Yeah, it's just not as conducive to spiritual growth and Mental health. Yeah, you know, there's pretty Classic analogy about the bad or good apple in a bad barrel, you know Yeah, you can't be a tuning fork in the matrix for so long to be able to go and and Grow that the strength of the tuning fork by letting nature tune you better Exactly, and it support you and into the direction of that you want to go in I mean if you're constantly Using your energy to fight and swim upstream You'll get burnt out and exhausted. You need an environment that supports your highest potential highest calling What percentage of us that's massive an environment that helps you get to your north star and what percentage would you? allocate hypothetically of Metropolis living to depression and anxiety Yeah, I'm just gonna throw out a number. Yeah, I'll try afterward too. I'm gonna say 89 no 80 80 tonight. I don't know. I think there's something my god Maybe you're right when this is over. I'll probably or maybe You know, you might you might be right. Yeah, it might be that high. Yeah. Well, I just think that the the lifestyle of City life It's so fragmented and it's so difficult to find nourishing community. Yes, and Space and time and nature. Yeah, everything is hustle hustle bustle, you know So it's it's challenging And urban environments. Yeah Damn. Yeah, I like how just straight up you are with that. Yeah. Yeah I Mean we you listed also like you know diet like food as another one of these that could be a massive contributor as well When we're eating fake foods were much more likely to experience mental health issues. Yeah, then we're eating my connection Yeah, absolutely. So there's like there's gonna be a lot of variables to crunch but the urban concrete jungles that we live in and the way that Then how that further structures the way that we have community and these healthy relationships and all these other variables that we're talking about Yeah, versus actually putting your hands in the soil growing food all this type of stuff. Exactly Mm-hmm What do you do for a healthy relationships like let's talk family let's talk Intimate partners, let's talk friends. Yeah, what do you how do you do that for yourself and how do you recommend others? Sure, sure. So that's shifted a lot over the years But again, I think one big answer is dealing with your trauma With regards to family I had a lot of resentment towards my father and many other members of my family and It wasn't until I was able to process that fully and grieve and come to terms With that that I was able to re-enter relationships with them that were much healthier and Same goes for friendships How do you get your family to grieve with you? Yeah So hard to crack family is very you know Ram Dass has like what if you think you're enlightened spend a week with your family That's such a good one. Yeah, I mean family is the hardest one. I think You definitely need space and time away from them. Oh, yeah, so there was a great comic it was the the the monks Having their last test at the monastery and it was like now for your last test You must go and sit with the family over. Thanks And then the monks just sitting there at the dinner table trying to like be meditative while there's the chaos It's a very humbling experience You think yes, and then like Buddha. Yeah, okay One week with the fam. Yeah, go do that. Yeah, right Okay, how did you get to the grieving with the fam? How'd you open them up like that? Well processing my own trauma with a therapist, but then having done that I was much more capable of Bringing up issues between us in a very compassionate and calm manner. Yeah, I wasn't projecting I wasn't blaming or You know demonizing them for what they did. I was Okay, at that point I've I processed the trauma and the grieving and so that invites them To be more open and vulnerable Instead of being on the fence Oh, I love that so so Approaching our families in a more In a way after we've ourselves have looked at ourselves in the mirror and worked on our own Honest true trauma that we need to integrate ourselves and then we kind of approach them with a more compassionate Angle not in a not in a way where we're trying to project some things some sort of change they need to do But just to ask a question and to be kind and gentle and loving that's been totally Working for me as well, and I know many others so that's that's great to hear. Yeah What about intimate relationships and friends? So, yeah, I mean similar principle there is Definitely certain experiences Related to friends that were traumatizing in the past and for a long time that Blocked me off from cultivating deep new friendships Same goes for intimate relationships if you don't heal a broken heart you don't have the capacity to enter a new romantic relationship So short answer again process your trauma. Yeah, how would you heal? Broken heart after a Yeah, it seems like the one of the important things that have learned is just to do as amicable of a job as possible in Relationships that that split up whether it be, you know intimate or even like, you know business related and whatnot just Be as loving and amicable as possible Easier said than done sometimes, you know, it's like I said if you have Harboring resentment, it's much harder to be loving Right, but if you've if you've processed your trauma You you're much more likely to be at peace and you can part ways more amicably Mm-hmm, and then where does also on the holistic mental healing? Where does the But where does where do other basic things like sleep or exercise? What did those kick in how do you how do you handle those? How do you recommend others to handle those? Sure. Well again, I'd be intuitive sleeping I love this just the few I'm gonna have intuitive protocol Yeah For me, it's different, you know, I exercise two or three days a week Depending on what injuries I have it shifts. So I like running a lot of play soccer But it's definitely Incredibly grounding. I mean if I go two weeks without exercise, I can sense myself With brain fog and being moody and it's not good So yeah, I think again very tailored and specific to individual needs and capacities And on and on a sleeping side as well I got a nice mattress. Yeah, that's a big key. Yeah. Yeah, there's a good book I haven't read it yet, but I listened to the podcast Matthew Walker. Yeah, why we sleep. He's on fire. We love him Yeah, yeah, he's he's great And that that really blew my mind about how important sleep is sounds. Yeah Very crucial fundamentals like makes it makes a ton of sense. It's like, oh, yeah I've lived 26 years and like what I learned today. I have to integrate with the 26 years of memories Like that's why we sleep. Yes, it's defragmented. Yeah, it kind of like makes a lot of sense Yeah, I mean you're going saying if you don't sleep. Yeah for a long time. Totally. Yeah, so There's also like tons of simulations that we run about During sleep so like we're constantly running simulations and dreams. Yeah Never heard of I'm some simulating tonight. I'm simulating. Yeah. Yeah, enjoy your simulations Yeah, yeah on the way to bed. Have you ever lucid dream? Oh, yeah. Yeah lucid dreams Amazing. Yeah, I've done it a few times. Yeah, I don't know how I did it, but I wish I could figure it out Yeah, there's like massive keys such an easy one. It's just like looking at your hands I was just gonna say the easy one is just to do things like think about yourself in control before you go to bed Like also don't think about negative shit like think about positive things and try and like manifest your destiny into the world As you're like going to bed like be thinking about how you're building and like what you're working on and stuff Or like if you really want to go and like Like go and like planet hop like to different star systems are like whatever you want to do Just like really just you want to go like in the bottom of the Mariana trench. Whatever you want to do But then like if hopping right? It would have hopping You're going to bed while you're Thinking about that and being in control and then the higher propensity for that also occurs, but then right? Yeah, there's a lot of Yeah, that's that's that's a big one. No other other core areas for Holesic mentally I Think we touched on the big ones, you know, I think I mentioned connection to nature. Yeah, but that comes with healing trauma I think yeah That's a big one And then what about our own Journey like we were talking about this a little bit before the show started But like these first couple principles like the first principle you're born It's like remember we all come from source. The second principle is what is your purpose? Why'd you come here? What is your North Star and how can you most effectively endeavor towards that? Yeah, do you how do you feel about those two as like first principles and this notion of North Star? Yeah, yeah Well, I really resonate with the North Star notion and As well as coming from source as we're born, although I don't remember what happened before But in terms of finding your North Star Notice what you're excited about what makes you come alive And pursue that What do you spend a lot of time researching listening to and being interested in? Yeah, and there's also the notion of a key guy. Have you heard of this a key guy. It's a Japanese principle a key guy Yeah, okay. So it's Four concentric circles, okay, and in the middle is a key guy. That's your that's north star. Okay, so it's what you're good at What the world needs what you can get paid for? And I'm forgetting the fourth one Yeah, what you're passionate about Those are yeah, those are awesome. Yeah The North Star is right in the center of those. Yeah They're overlapping. They're overlapping. Yeah, they're concentric. Sorry, or they're Concentric meaning completely embedded within each other. No, no, no overlapping. Yeah overlap. Yeah, okay Yeah, so that's how I approach the North Star. Yeah, that's good and Also, there's got to be like a little bit of vigilance with Like this notion of like what are what are you like enjoying doing because we can like catch ourselves being subscribed to certain Maybe media sources or certain activities that we think bring us enjoyment And they're really actually extremely detrimental to our psyche and mental health, etc. So it's like yeah Yeah Deprogramming yourself deconditioning It's important. Yeah Yeah, there's this idea of like false resonance, right? Uh-huh. So you might think you're resonating with something. Yeah, really just it's a wound attachment. Whoa, you know Bird hard Gunther. Yeah, I had him on show twice. You did. We love him. Okay. Yeah Yeah, he has a great article on false resonance. Yeah, you guys should check out Yeah Yeah, yeah You know may go do it a third time going down to so Cal tomorrow. So nice already in touch with him. It's a good point How about spiritual bypass Mm-hmm. What is that? Mm-hmm. How do we avoid it? That kind of has a little bit of like that false resonance Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. Yeah, so the notion of spiritual bypassing is Using spiritual ideas or practices To prematurely transcend the more difficult messy human side of life So difficult emotions difficult issues Obligations in your life An example being You are neglecting your daughter And You justify it by saying I mean, this is a pretty extreme example I don't think this is actually the case, but you justify by saying it's okay. Everything will be okay You remember I was saying like fundamentally everything will be okay. You use these absolute spiritual principles to Bypass the more relative truths about the nature of our lives in the world. Yes. Yeah So it's often the case when it comes to grieving if you Let's say Lou's a loved one. I mean, this was the case in my life when I lost my best friend in high school Spirituality was a crutch that I used and I'll be at a necessary crutch for a long time, but eventually It sabotaged my growth and what I really needed was to process my emotions and the and grieve Yeah, instead of attaching the spiritual ideas This this one's nuts because it makes me really reflect more deeply on my own life trajectory and my own instances of Have I really been authentically working on myself and not just bypassing? thoughts like that and then Also just like on a on a level of everyone's, you know spiritual journey It's you know, how well are we facing these relative truths? Versus just trying to bypass them. Mm-hmm. This also reminds me of what you were teaching about with You called it the spoonfuls of cosmic juice. It's so funny. It's like yes, people are kind of like Not taking their time to integrate a mystical spiritually developing experience and instead they're just Diving right back in right back in yeah I mean it's it's it makes sense why because When you have a mystical experience or a peak psychedelic experience, you might enter a very blissful state You might feel totally connected to yourself and others in nature and you think ah, okay This is where I want to be but then it wears off and You think how can I get back there? so you constantly go back for that spoonful of cosmic juice and Eventually it becomes poison. Yeah Yeah, we're lying on something exogenously to Get you to interconnected with source is Recipe for disaster. Well, we'll not even Exogenous I mean you can do a flotation tank. You can do you can be addicted to breath work You can do all sorts of practices that enable you To to bypass integration to really learn so you're constantly getting that hit of Bliss from whatever practice or methodology it may be instead of doing the hard work of integration Applying what you've learned from the experience embodying that Deeply yeah before moving on to have another peak experience or a new you know, whatever so that's such a massive principle That's another important one to flag Really do the integration Focus on that. Mm-hmm something I need to get much much better at to Yeah, I'm spending a lot of Time on Having different Conscious evolutions and then I just need to have more time on just really reflecting and integrating. That's such a key It's where I know I'm doing a lot of writing on it or maybe recording a video on the subject that kind of stuff Which I'll turn on processing that way. It's very very useful. Yeah. Yeah, that one's really useful You familiar with the right hand path versus left hand path kind of like You need we fall from grace from source and then the idea is that okay? Like we got a reconnect to source right? We've been mentioning that and so then one idea is this like right hand path Which is this like pure path of like meditation and sincere self-work and yeah Yeah, the left hand path is like I'm gonna do drugs and I'm gonna do BDSM I'm a sex drugs and sex drugs or a curl. Yeah, we're thoughts on that hmm Yeah, I Think it comes down to intention and Awareness You could have you know, you could be participating in a right hand path in a very unhealthy way just because You might be meditating and using these pure methods, let's say to reach enlightenment doesn't mean They can't be toxic You could spiritually bypass by just meditating every day instead of dealing with things You know you should be dealing with and same goes for the left for more obvious reasons Yes, I think it comes down to yeah intention and how you're utilizing Practices from both sides Okay, I mean sex tantra you can use tantra in a very healthy way to To Spiritually grow music, you know doesn't have to be all Toxic And then how about This Conversation that we had at that consciousness hacking event this notion that is it possible that more people will heal Mentally and holistically faster and more effectively around our world can we increase the level of consciousness around our world faster and more effectively by helping people meet their basic needs and We see it Being proposed in a multitude of ways one of the ways is this basic income that is being proposed to run little trials of around the planet and Then people are countering that and saying what about universe of basic assets about basic asset ownership What about the North Star thing giving people money or assets is cool But like what about North Star's like to like the stuff to have something to wake up to and be passionate about every day But it's that easier to find if they have that little bit of like safety So they don't have to worry about food and shelter. Yeah, walk us down your thoughts sure sure exactly what you were saying It facilitates the process of finding your North Star because your attention isn't scattered trying to meet your basic needs and also having the psychological security of knowing If I choose a different path in life than the one I'm currently on I will be okay to a certain degree and That gives you space and time to really dig into your own curiosities and passions that you might have otherwise neglected because of you know 95 dad and job or Yeah Then What about like on like a simulated level like What happens with this Redistribution of assets or of wealth like under just a simulated level like run the simulation out a couple of years Does it seem like that? There's still a good way to incentivize people to want to achieve their dreams and earn a financial success But not feel like there's some sort of like a cap or a heavy tax on them But that there we are still really taking care of the community our our neighbors are most vulnerable people Enabling those North Star journeys to be more effective. Can we really balance those out? Well With the Basic assets you mean yeah with like a balance between people still feeling like the economic redistribution of wealth and assets is Simultaneously yes helping those most vulnerable that need those those North Star journeys more effectively but also doesn't put some sort of like a An inhibition on people to achieve Right, right, right. So Yanis Verifakis. He talks about this a lot He's a Greek finance minister, but he talks about UBI is much more Much better at liberating people because it provides a foundation Whereas most welfare provides safety nets and that's a very easy to get caught in Right There's a lot of perverse incentives that comes with a lot of the basic assets In terms of when you reach a certain financial bracket, then you lose any of your benefits, right? So it disincentivizes people from working and pursuing Different things in life, but with the UBI you get it regardless and you can apply it Whatever way you want gives you more freedom Damn, it's gonna be crazy to see what the United States China And these other economic powerhouses around the world decide to do with the automation age and wealth and equality Yeah, it's just gonna be really interesting to see what happens. Yeah the facilitation of the North Star journeys is critical bringing people most meaning basic needs Because that those creative fruits get to be expressed to all of us and shared by all of us, right? Two questions that we ask our guests on the way out of the shows. First is are we in a simulation? I Don't know. I think that's very similar to is there a God question. Mm-hmm. Okay. Why why do you say that? Because if we are then who is the simulator who is who created the simulation must be some kind of God figure it just yeah, I Don't know it to me It's it's not as relevant to my my own life whether or not It may soon become more relevant to all of our lives once we have the power to run our own This is true. Yeah. Yeah, that's gonna be come way more relevant with computational capacity and Immersive experiences and virtual reality is all that kind of stuff. It's just gonna be crazy. Yeah, we're already running our own little Simulated experiments of all of all different sorts, but when you can do it on like a planetary level and mm-hmm How did they discover language? How did they discover the internet? You know, you're like and just be able to watch how people engaged on those What is the most beautiful thing in the world? That's a good one, yeah Man I want to say music I like what Jordan Peterson says about music He talks about all these different layers coming together and aligning There's something deeply resonant about that for me. Yeah reminds me of divinity. Yeah, everything coming together And like the symphony that is civilization and all this as our notes the symphony of life. Yeah, yeah of life. Yeah we want to Play orange tune our instrument and the music together. Yes Tune the instrument and play the note play the music altogether. Yes That actually brings us to the gem thing, too It's like tuning it is kind of like getting the dust and stuff off and then playing it is bringing it up Having the light shine through it Sorry, it's been such a fun episode. Yeah. Yeah, it's been great. Thanks so much time. Yeah, super fun Thanks for coming on really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for all the great work we Is such an important topic? Holistic mental healing and all the components that you broke it down into thanks for doing that and doing the work and Hopefully it resonated with other people that have been tuning in. Thank you everyone for watching. We greatly appreciate it We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode and topics that we talked about less What you're thinking Have more conversations with your friends families coworkers people online on social media about Holistic mental healing all these little subcomponents we talked about have more conversations about go and take Control of those aspects of your life more vid vigorously and bring them to fruition And check out the links in the bio below to Tony's profiles check them out up support him support us support simulation Our links are below support the artist entrepreneurs the spiritual leaders Educators that you believe in support them. You find our PayPal patreon cryptocurrency links below Also Shout out to Ori Shapiro for producing. Thank you very much. Ori And go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world. We love you very much Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you soon