 Ladies and gentlemen, we're ready for the next presentation, so it gives me a great pleasure to introduce Paul Burns to you again. Paul Burns is with us from America. What part of America, Paul? I'm living in Florida, though. Florida? You know where to find them. Paul is going to talk to us about the plan O'Burn of Leicester as defined by its DNA. Now Paul spent 30 years doing intelligence work much of the time in Latin America and later as a private investigator. He's been involved in genealogy and genetic genealogy for many years and his plan O'Burn and Burns DNA project is one of the largest on Family Tree DNA and probably one of the first ones to start as well. Well it's January 2005. I wasn't one of the first but it does go way back and the project is one of the top 100 of the 8,000 I think it's surname projects that they have. That's fascinating. Maybe it's 8,000 surnames, I forget which. Well Paul is going to tell us all about Clona Burns so I can ask you to give you a give Paul a warm welcome. This lecture concerns just one portion of the project which I described yesterday. It's the largest portion of the burn, burn, burns is three different spellings B-U-R-N-S-B-Y-R-N-E-B-E-I-R-N-E that we have in the title of the project that we have many other similar phonetically similar surnames tested as well. I put a chart of the whole project on the back wall just not that I'm going to point to it but just so so you can see the great diversity of it. All that on the top all that purple that's the that's the Clona burn of Lentster and 94 of our members are in the core group of that clan. If we include the other Haplu groups that is the people who really were part of the clan but are not members of that core group who did not have the the the SNP indicator that designates them and I'll get into all this were included would probably be about 33% of our total product. Now oh first let me introduce Richard Richard just raise your hand please. He's co-administrated the project and he lives in Wexford and he joined us last year as well he's been in the project for some time joined us as co-administrator and it's a great help to us because he's here in Ireland when I'm back at States of course and our other co-administrator lives in United States too but Richard keeps his supply of test kits handy if there anyone in the room who's a burner or similarity and wants to test YDNA see him please. Now we are a YDNA project only as I said and though I get frequent requests to join the project from people who have a burn in the maternal ancestry we can't really help them just because we don't test and the only advantage to joining the project is to have your your marker values yes to our values added and analyzed by us and added to that that big chart that we have. I have to explain where the clan came from or at least where we think it came from before I get into the DNA. There's many myths about the origin of the clan of Bernd or better to say the the I've also the Lagan and I've been corrected recently the Lane line lion I guess it is which the clan was a part. Legend associated the name Lester with the Lane Peninsula in Wales and while others let's see how this thing works there we go others have opined that the Lester tribes including the Oberns probably came from the Dumnoni who started out in our Morica back at BC times moved on to Devon now let's see yeah here we go there and then spread up the Irish Sea some settling here this is Potomies map of about 250 AD I think it is doesn't yeah right here Dumnoni and while others move further up and settled in Scotland and we do have some genetic association with some of the Scottish tribes especially the a group called the Bades but anyway just recently there's been in fact the past couple of weeks one of the experts has come up with a new SNP that connects the clano burns identifier which is called Z 255 with another group called Z 253 which is pretty much it's pretty certain that that's a Irish origin so now that throws that whole thing into question and we're going to take a couple of months before we really know if that holds fast then it will show that the Lester groups through the Irish origin and not of Cornwall I guess you say or French but anyway about 400 AD I think this is fairly well verified by history a two tribes moved up from Osiris into Lester one was called the E-Chensileg and the other was called the E-Dunlange the E-Chensileg state in the southern part there it is there southern part of Lester and eventually became the McMurray's the Cavanaugh's Kinshala's and I don't know what a certain other tribes as well well the Dunlange went for the north and I'm not sure it's even named on the map and then event later on about 700 AD split into the E-Wurredegg the E-Fuelan and the tribe over here the Dunjata there it is we're only concerned or I'm only concerned with the E-Fuelan which is the parrot group of the clan of Urn it was based around Nace in North Lester while the E-Murredegg was a little further south and that eventually became the O-Tools the the E-Fuelan provided a great many kings of Lester in the early days as well as you know tribal kings and was quite powerful in Lester politics up until the time of the battle of Clontar when it was pretty much decimated by Brian Baru and his forces now it was the it was the E-Fuelan that really led the opposition to Brian at that battle not the not the Vikings is a legend would have it but anyway so many of them were killed at the power then shifted to the E-Chinshala in the in the south and with Dermot McMurray and you know that story I'm sure the E-Fuelan lands were taken over by the Normans that Dermot brought in about the year 1177 1178 and many history say that the Normans force the E-Fuelan up into the Wyclows but the truth is the research now has it that E-Fuelan up into this area that the E-Fuelan that a faction of the E-Fuelan known as E-Brand after a king of I think the king of Lester as well named Bran lost out in an internal political struggle in the E-Fuelan and was forced up about 1052 thereabouts to settle around Ocriss I'm not sure they've done the map probably not Ocriss Ocrim and Shalala in the south of the Wyclow and that's where the clan of Byrne really began this is a map to one of the members drew up Vel Byrne who was at one time the chief of the E-Chinshala clan and the clan is a grew it was formed about 1200 AD the clan as it grew divided into a junior branch and a senior branch senior branch is called the Croque Brana and the junior branch was at the part of my pronunciation of Irish terms but the reason it was kind of a late form clan about 1200 but it survived long after many of the other most of the other clans were destroyed or subdued as a better word to say by the by the Normans because of its isolation in the Wyclow mountains and the difficulty of the the Anglo-Norman forces getting up there to put it down to conquer it this for example let some of these slides I showed yesterday if those of you who are were here then the battle of Glen with the Lord 1580 is quite famous when they say about 800 Anglo invaders were were killed by the by the Lentzter forces up in the hills now before passing on to the DNA aspects of the of the clan I want to point out a couple of my major sources for what I know about it this is a book by a man named Emmett O'Burn who is quite an authority on the clan has written this book and written many essays as well on war politics in the Irish of Lentzter 1156 1606 he's the current elected head of the the clan and also a series of books there's my name on the cover but really it's by Daniel Byrne Rothwell it's it's there's been three volumes published and two more volumes are going to come out it's it's quite a the last word and what we know about that particular clan I'm not out the clan incidentally I'm Northwest Irish Richard here however is now the my association with the clan though began with my great grandfather who wrote a memoir about the year 1900 tracing himself back five or six generations he lives in County Sligo but he said that we descended from the clan O'Burn of Lentzter through a Jacobite cavalry officer named Patrick O'Burn who fled from Wicklow well actually fled from the Battle of Lactrum in Galway in 1691 from north to Sligo and settled there well as I spent about 20 years 25 years trying to verify that and I couldn't and eventually when I have myself DNA tested I discovered I don't know where he got the information because it wasn't true at all I did early on when I had myself tested in January 2005 I I tested a Valburn who as I said with the time was elected chief of the clan and he was probably the first member which in the year 2005 by the end of the year we had just nine members of this clan O'Burn tested and they'll I found I found it of the nine that seven of them had surprisingly close DNA so I thought right over that that early that we might have a clan profile and it's to my surprise is later on it held true and as more people joined us by the end we had ten members at the end of the first year and the project itself grew to about a hundred members at the end of the second year and right now we have about 375 but if I said only about 95 are this clan O'Burn the burn model that we first tested and which proved reliable was later adopted as the Lenshter model because it seemed to apply to other Lenshter surnames as well and today they call the Irish sea model because I some association with the debate ease and other surnames across the across the Irish sea in the other side I showed this again yesterday the see this this is the burns it's not too much interest to the clan O'Burn because you see very few bird be you are in us in this area which is the the be wire in the other hand that this obviously very much concentrated in in Lenshter there are some some other off the supposed offshoots they thought they were offshoots which I'll mention a little bit later that turned out not to be a Donnie Gall group a monahan group wealth group and I thought well anyway the burns where I come from right up in there we the story was that we were from the from the the way close but we are over the burns but obviously we weren't and the brains who are a small part of our project but we do have some brains who seem to tie in to the clan O'Burn and they are in this area down here I don't have any brains up in here and I don't know what they are we have a group of brains over here and Kerry but they are of a different DNA entirely we're talking about SNPs SNPs and STRs I'm trying to make this as non-technical as possible but this is a chart of the human race by SNPs SNPs occur much more rarely and it's not mutation than an STR mutation so it's much much better for for tracing answers deep ancestry now the a I think more as you mentioned a figure the other day I've been carrying 125,000 years back to the origin of half the group a I may be wrong on that but anyway as the as time went on down the thousands down the Millennium's the the step map kept enlarging and large and large and large and two he got down to R1B at about 80% of Irish or R1B and the clan O'Burn being one of them this map just shows the portion of R1B that is L21 there's other portions and this map has actually changed in the last couple of weeks the whole field is advancing so fast but it's just to show the there's about 200 major subclades under L21 as I said 80% of Irish or L21 the only portion we're really concerned with in this lecture is right here and the clan O'Burn is right right there on this this portion of the chart it doesn't mean it's a position on the chart that it's the most the lowest or the most recent is just one of many actually goes back pretty far up it should be up here for this sort of arranged by by age now this is the way I chart the the marker values when a test comes back in there is an L21 model up here in the gray and if this is a largest portion of the clan O'Burn and if they all were had no mutations at all this would all be a sea of purple just just purple but different colors show the markers that have mutated and as you can see there are certain ones that are common over here over here to to the clan O'Burn and what if we get a new result and showing four or five or six of these the same mutations the ones that we consider part of this when we placed in the model for the for the clan then we know we placed the person properly early on I start using the software to help out here and it so became apparent this is the type of software called fluxes that I used to use years ago that I could identify some sub branches of the clan O'Burn by their position on this particular type of software this here's one here here's one here but that the there was a big core big main group and that seemed to be everyone seemed to be very close in genetically and that became the eventually the core group of the of the project of the plan now here's here's another phonetic chart I found this much more useful in times by a man named Howard retired astronomer and you can actually in this one without my interpreting you can see the the way the program identifies families and going around there's one right there here's one down here and so on so forth this just shows the portion of that previous chart were under Z255 which is the kind of the identifying step was the identifying step and in time of course we discovered branches of it the clan O'Burn and the most of all of the 95 that I mentioned 94 members are in this particular one right here and lastly this chart by Alex Williamson is based mostly on big why testing and full genome testing and we were fortunate enough to get I think it's six it is at seven one two three four I think six members of the clan O'Burn to take the test and this shows all the various mutations that they have down here is a burn burn burn burn when now there's a group of wins in South Lancaster I'm sure that's where he comes in and burn and then another one over here another burn doesn't seem to tie in as closely as these do now these these are where they all come together these six are under Z16950 that's the name of SNP and four of them are under SNP here that doesn't have a name because they cannot individually test it it's too flaky and I'm hoping they'll that they'll be rectified because it seems to be close to RIN 300 years later perhaps and so on back to Z255 which is way up there now they've been able to put an age to well they're figuring the way they do it is they figure there's an average 150 years between SNPs and using that let me go back here using that they count the number of SNPs up here to the common denominator the common SNP and from that these of these people were in the present of course taking an average birth year 1950 or so working backwards 150 percent they figure the age of that and the age of that and the age of Z255 itself as well this is showing Z255 3700 BC the main group of those four was at about 1100 BC AD and the same with these others as there's a little bit of difference but let's say they're both about 1100 and the age of the SNP they Z16950 that encompasses five of the six and actually more because I individually SNP tested three other project members so we have eight who tested that so we have a very good indicator in Z1916950 and then up above well the then that that odd one this this one over here who is Z255 but it's an older branch of the clan he comes in higher up about 300 years earlier I think it's right there yeah well 200 you two SNPs earlier well I took Bill Howard's chart which is STR based and divided it into major families and those red arrows show the six people who tested big why and these blue arrows show those three individuals that I tested with why why so just for the Z16950 and it all fit very nicely together and my family seemed fairly well identified by this and that one who tied in much earlier obviously here is not a family this line was way up this this is not quite doesn't seem to fit in that portion there this is a timescale going out here and the timescale the gold line is Z16950 and it seems to fit that this is that this is SNP based well this is STR based but it does fit in very nicely in time and the blue line which is that lower SNP that encompassed four of the families also fit in well with Bill Howard's predicted time to the near to the common ancestor of each of each group this thing doesn't want to turn off okay but that's the core group and that's they have a single primogenitor the 95 members of that core group but they're not they don't all of the clan will burn there were many others in the clan who tested did not test Z255 and some actually test haplogroups that go back thousands of years well some of them are Viking we have about 10 people in the project who whose ancestors lived along the coast perhaps and the mostly haplogroup by one and the ancestors probably settled their 800 AD 900 AD and of course they after a couple generations they didn't know that they were the center from Vikings and when the clan was formed in 1200 AD they were just swept up given the surname over and nobody knew until they tested recently in last October just a year ago we had a recruitment drive and in the Weclos is mostly Richard's work and my other co-administrator and they recruited 42 new members it's just to show you the diversity 32 turned out to be in the core group the haplogroup Z 255 but 10 10 had different haplogroups in time these are people with a surname burn who who live in Lenzter and who as far as they knew their ancestors that always lived there too but 10 of them is fully 20 one fourth had different haplogroups one is an N222 at Northwest Irish the F49 private is very close to 222 was just above it there from Wexford this is a Brian Baroo and he's the third one of the project and then an R1A which is mostly Eastern Europe and J2 which is Eastern Mediterranean or North Africa and then some unknowns for unknowns we don't know what their what their background is but it backs up that the clan was geographic and in nature and not not all primogenitor now again this is a slide I showed yesterday there's there's many groups in Ireland that think they descend from the clan Obern and DNA is showing that they certainly do not we that's my my family up there in Slago there was a group in Mayo that believes that the DNA shows us not from Lenzter and not the clan the Danygal big group of Danygal and then over here in Lout and Monaghan there are several groups that whose oral history is that they are where people sent up to AD O'Neill or the O'Connell and we're given land and return and settle down in those areas but as I said they are a different haplogroup entirely so that that story is no more accurate than is my family history I told this story yesterday but I'll tell it again briefly because these people are Z255 they are a member of the clan Obern of Lenzter that I was approached a while back by a man in New Zealand some years ago now named Valdez a Mexican name he's called Elbornis no I get concerned a man named Elbornis who was a local politician and ranch owner who surname was Burns he came from Minnesota but his father had migrated from from Waterford supposedly and he impregnated his servant girl who had a baby or that's what the man who approached me said he said his servant girl was his great-grandmother she had a boy baby boy baby boy baby so so Joe Joe Valdez was asking if DNA would help prove that this Burns had done that and I said we can certainly try we tested his DNA and he was a perfect match with a man from New Zealand whose ancestors had migrated from Kilkenny to New Zealand three generations early he was 67-67 match and the man in New Zealand who incidentally moved to Washington by then Washington DC had been in touch with a man who occupies Clara Castle or at least farms a land around Clara Castle in Kilkenny and thinking that they were related and he agreed to test to he's 67 6667 to the other two so obviously his theory was was correct and I think all three were happy with the story now not the joke and do much with the information I don't think he's interested in the law so he just wanted to know okay well that's just to summarize what we've learned I've learned a lot just preparing this lecture whether DNA has determined the clans origins not really and not yet but we are in the process and I think sooner than later we're going to be pinned down whether the clan does come from the do do know me whether it's of Irish origin or whether it came over from Wales or whatever and has DNA verified the the e-brain moved originator that is that they moved up from in a tribal dispute in 1052 to the southern Wicklows it's hard to say again there there are brains in the project one of whom is present in the room and it let's spend all we can say right now is that we haven't disproved that that that theory and thirdly is DA helping to separate the senior from the junior branch well probably not I think the two branches are more political than they are separated by by bloodlines they haven't had enough time really to develop separately and there's been probably a lot of intermarriage over the years since they they're not that far apart geographically and lastly is DNA of assistance and separating families and determining MRCA well that's what we're working on right now is trying to do just that it's divide the the clan will burn into family lineages by paper trail it all has to come back to paper trail tracing and I wish we had some better paper trails as some of our members think they can go back to the 1500s but but not everyone accepts that now Gerald Corcoran just last night was saying that what we need across the board and in why DNA is some some it's a very solid pedigrees going back thousands or more years if possible that we can then match the mutation rates and finally decide whether this 150 years is accurate or not I don't agree with the 150 years but I don't have any evidence yet if the mutation the average mutation was a hundred years apart then those dates that I put up there on that previous screen would change drastically and would be more in line with what we know about the the clan's history and what we we believe we know about the clan's history but you know until till more people test there's no way to really say I'm hoping that the Corcoran's and the other families maybe some Lentzter family can come up with a better pedigree that we can use as a gauge so thank you very much for listening thanks very much Paul anybody have any questions for Paul we generally use family tree DNA for these type of surname projects because it is the only one of the companies that has the infrastructure to support surname projects so family tree DNA would be the one to test with they are downstairs and you can get a DNA test today so one for your brother or one of the male members of the family or one for yourself as well and we have a question down here from Kathy a comment and a question the comment is that there's a lot of genealogical material in the book of Balmote and the book of Lechim and both of those are now up on the web and there are groups in which exist which are doing palaeographical transcriptions of these and it seems to me that that will be very useful for groups like yours to be in touch with them and ask them to actually transcribe some of the material I'm not saying that I don't believe in accurate ed degrees yeah that's a catch the other question is what do you mean by clan what's your what's your working definition of plan well I really don't have I it could be a sept a clan a shell that there's all kinds of terms and I as near as I can find out they're interchangeable I've asked people about that now I call the the old burn of Roscombe and I call them a sep because I read somewhere that that means a smaller unit than a clan that a clan is larger but if you've got a better definition of clan I'd love to have it well I don't but I agree with you that all these terms are used very loosely and it seems to me that if we're investigating with DNA you need to be have more use them more precisely than that historians have tended to do yeah I wish I could but I mean one of the big distinctions for example between Canada Scotland and Ireland is that a clan in Scotland can be everybody in a given area so when you did your math that's what I that's what I'm saying I think the clan will burn as geographic rather than Patrick Lenial that they don't all descend from the same man well most of them do but not all well you see when you look at Irish families you don't get a pattern where you have an entire valley an entire area of however many acres where everybody has the same surname it's not an Irish except in some places in Donegal yeah so an Irish I mean the word clan just means family or children but an Irish clan is not the same as a Scottish clan yeah so I think as you get more and more precise in terms of the DNA you're going to have to ask the historians be more and more precise in their usage of words like this because otherwise you're just it's just confusion yeah in this case the clan always had an elected leader as far as I know a chieftain so to speak a would you call it a shock and I guess I would define clan there's other groups known as the shill which is I think mean seed of doesn't it and mentor which just means well again nobody has studied I mean if you look at sorry I don't want to hold here but the word winter it turns up in the 11th century and nobody has come up with what it first appears in genealogical material in the 11th century nobody has defined just means it means a modern Irish family nobody has defined what it means in the 11th century so there's there's there's a lot of work to be done on this I mean your map is a map of the early map that you had there is a map by Alfie Smith and F. J. Buren that's basically what it's based on yeah but that's what they're doing is they're taking 12th century genealogies and the records of Angkor-Norman settlement and they're following 12th pedigrees written down in the 12th century which say father to son to son to son inheritance going back at a guess so when you say it's historically proven or historically agreed to AD 400 that's reconstruction by modern scholars from a 12th century genealogy there's no 4th century source that's based on yeah so this is what I was trying to say yesterday the history side of this is much weaker than some of the arguments that are being presented here would suggest prior to the Norman arrival whether or not lots of places where the land was controlled by Chieftains who had the same surname and people adopted the same surname that had the same land we can trace families we cannot trace the lands that families owned in any detail apart from saying they're west of the Shannon they're east of the Shannon they're north they're south but when you see a map that map is based on taking the names of people and assuming that asking you about that you said what's the definition of a plan yeah it says it's a place where the usage of the land was controlled by people that adopted the same surname but you need to know what the land is then and I'm telling you don't count the names probably speak to that no they can't okay we have references placenames in material from 650 on and some of those placenames are replicated in modern town land names some but we've no death we've no at the moment we've no dating criteria for all Irish places we don't there's a theory that most of them were invented by 1200 but it's only a theory and when you look at kingdom boundaries the kingdom boundaries a lot of them are recorded either in Anglin Norman documentation associate with the names of families or it's recorded in things like Keating where they just say from the river Shannon kind of froze up on me it's very big okay and there's lots of other family's interests first it's not it's simply all it's saying is that the control the family leader but it's not saying there wasn't other population whose mother from other families living in that area related question because we're seeing in your study poll that there are a lot of burns who don't share the same haplotype haplogroup is that correct yeah as the core group now a lot of this might be due to NPE's non-paternity events out of wedlock and illegitimate birds for example but the other one is secret adoptions and of course that comes back to the ancient Irish fostering custom but so this is a kind of a general question to the audience to what extent do we think that fostering into the core group was responsible for the differences in the haplogroup assignments we see to the members of the court plan of burn I don't know I thought about that Mars but fostering was strictly the upper classes wasn't it and you think they would know who the child is to be returned to the child was was was lent lent or given to to some other tribe or some other family to raise of course to educate and so on but then they always go back then to the to the to the their parents eventually the parents tribe anyway they should do but of course if they were men being fostered they go back at 17 so they could have less traces of their passing in the foster family well that's true yeah well that's that's that's another very good point because of an NPE if we want to call it that occurred 2,000 years ago then that particular snip has been passed down through all the subsequent general male male descendants of that that man and if his name was anywhere along the line if he was living in the clan area that was the area that was dominated by the clan then his name became usually will burn or a tool or whatever the chaston's name was with with no memory whatever I mean who knew about such things back then I think the the key point for me would be exactly the same as the previous one raised is what is this definition of a clan in genetic terms I think you can make it rigorous by saying what you did and defining it as a geographic entity the problem then becomes that the phrase membership of a clan becomes much more fuzzy because you can bet your bottom dollar there's almost no one alive today who is a hundred percent descended from that geographic region especially not people from other countries and other parts of Ireland yeah because everybody migrates and everybody's gonna be a huge mix of everything else so then the problem is what where do you draw your threshold arbitrary threshold and say above this percent of admins reports and we're gonna call you a member and if you're below you're not a member anymore so I think it's this word membership that is yeah it's what we've called science of false dichotomy the thing is they wouldn't know they wouldn't know that they came from different lines I think they were the same as a neighbor or the guy in the next valley and so all what the name oh burn you know yeah all descended from a single primogenitor but and what surprises me is there's so many 95 our do have that single primogenitor right yes I mean that's amazing although you do on the other hand you have these people who have wine you need to yeah over the world who still call themselves members so that's as well I mean there's there's probably a way of making it at least a useful thing to say but there needs to be some kind of threshold defined and as soon as you as soon as we get more sequences from geographically targeted areas yeah you'll be able to say things like this based on admins proportions we have a question down here from John and from Jared we'll take Jared first and then we'll go to John okay I tend to agree with captain's comment as the historians and the geneticists should work closer together reminds me of the old Oklahoma musical the Kalman and the farmer should be friends right and you know we have a very very big corpus of ancient genealogy in Ireland we've lost many of our mountain records of course but we have this very large corpus of ancient genealogy you know it looks like the great book of genealogy from the pervish there are about 20 other excellent sources all of the animals in each valley and all certain zones for the challenge would be to get them digitized first online indexed so that then I would return the question and say how can we effectively do this because you know we are our phylogenetic tree is expanding at an exponential rate we were in the middle of a SNP tsunami and all we need now is the ancient records to be able to link to. Would it be helpful you know for all people to do the conference next year to talk specifically about the texts and the evidence of the texts so it's not just me pontificating in the corner but that there is actually a spread of people yeah would that be helpful. Absolutely. That's a great suggestion Hathi thanks and a great point Jared as well it's great to see that some of the ancient genealogy's are being digitized and are being available online but for everybody with a certain study we need as many as possible so we can really do some proper analysis. Comments from John. So we'll be a comment first of all apologies for not being here earlier I had to feed myself. First point in relation to adoptions there were adoptions in formal adoptions even in modern times early modern times if a couple had no children of their own and their brother or sister had a large brood they often gave them their children. Sure yeah. So you had this and then they would adopt they would take on the family name, people take the old family name for convenience. The second point is the surnames really didn't exist much earlier than the normals right here. No. People were called you know John the son of red the son of so old. That's right. And then they were also called by their occupation. My name is an occupation. Swordsman. So there were many swordsmen the sons of whoever was a broken king. So the definition of a family. Families didn't need surnames because there were so few of them anyway. They stayed in the same place and in my opinion I don't think it matters about the level of precision that you give to a land that lived in a particular patch which was very slightly in time. It would be nice if you could define this otherwise but I would expect that because of the absence of surnames and the patch would be a bit different. It doesn't really matter very much. Most people know what you mean when you say it's land in grey or wherever you choose are on the mountains and they had to move around. That's all I want to say. That's what I said before is that I'm really surprised if our main indicator was 550 AD for the clan. That's where the 94 95 probably come together most of them anyway that that they they all are the same. They are the Z 16950. Because you think it would be so many adoptions and other illegitimacies and what have you down to 15 letters of 1500 years. That's a very lot to be said for the women of Lentz. Thank you so much for an excellent presentation. I think you've thrown a lot of light on what it means to try and reconstruct a clan. I think we've had an excellent discussion with the audience as well. We've learned a lot. We've actually made a step forward now as well towards digitization of all the ancient animals and I think that's a really great step forward. So can I ask you to all thank Paul Burns for his excellent presentation. Thank you. You want to take this off. You're muted now. We're safe. We're in the clear. Well done.