 Welcome to the Monday, July the 18th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. We'll let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Eric, don't forget to pull your microphone closer to you for introductions. Eric Gilbertson member. Martha Smirsky member. Meredith Crandall staff. Steve Everett member. And at this point, we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures. Okay, so I am going to be sharing my screen here. A lot of the share screen is more for somebody who might be watching over orca and want to log in. There's some tidbits for other people as well. So if you're watching this meeting via orca media, you can participate in tonight's design review committee meeting using the zoom link shown here on your screen. Or you can dial in on your phone, landline or sell and put in this meeting ID number. If you go in via phone, you'll be able to hear everything that said and you'll be able to participate verbally. You just won't be able to see the share screens. If you're still watching on via orca media, that'll pop up on that screen as well. There might be a little delay, but it'll still work. If you have problems accessing the meeting, please email me at mcrandall at Montpelier hyphen vt.org. I will be monitoring my email throughout the meeting. For those attending via zoom, turning your video on is optional. And sometimes if you're having issues with your sound, turning video off will help improve that. For everyone attending, please keep your microphone on mute. When you're not speaking, this will reduce background noise. And please reserve the zoom chat function for troubleshooting or logistics questions. If you have a question or comment about an actual item on the agenda. Please raise your hand either physically or using the raise hand button on your zoom toolbar. And then when the chairs recognized you, please make sure to state your name for the record. I think most everybody here is involved and sort of an applicant in one way or another. But if you know for people for applicant occasions that have multiple people representing them, please do make sure to state your name when you're speaking. If you have any just general members of the public on tonight. In the event I do get noticed that their members of the public who are trying to access the meeting and can't get in, we will have to continue the meeting to a time and place certain. I'm going to now hand the meeting back over to the chair. Thank you. And members have had a chance to look at the agenda. Do I hear a motion to approve the agenda. All in favor of the agenda speaker names. I, Martha. Steve. So the agenda is approved. And unless anybody has anything to add, we can go to the first application for eight summit street on our applicant Timo Bradley. He's on remotely. Okay. Go ahead and describe your application for us and clarify where eight summit street is summit street. If you're heading on college street south towards Berry Street. Just as you're crossing over the hill. It's a right hand turn. It's just a very quiet little street on the south side of the college. So I'm going to go up against the college parking lot. I think it's, I'm sorry, I remember the name of the hall there. I own with my wife, a duplex, and my parents actually are our tenants, and it's the garage in question is the one that they use which we actually happen to have two garages. It's the closest to college. And the problem currently is that there's, there are two doors, both of which are fairly narrow. And my mother, you know, who's honestly getting a little bit older is, can't. There to drive into it in the winter. And likewise, they had my honestly I was hoping my dad would take care of this. He wasn't available tonight. And I'm having to be thank you very much for allowing me to be virtual I'm here in Quebec City actually. Anyway, they had a contractor out to look at the garage door specifically and the rails that are there are too, too old to rickety to outfit with an automatic door. So what they want to do and of course, via them I like to see this happen is to exchange the two doors that are, you know, about eight feet wide with one door. And hopefully, I gave basically all the information I had to Audra and hopefully you, you have it there. And so the idea would be to, to remove the central post between between the doors currently. And this is a sort of a basic structure staple plate trust garage. We're really pretty certain that there's really no, no weight bearing issues there with the front we should should be able to do it. The contractor who's going to do the work is Bob Clark. He certainly is an experienced guy, and we'll know after when he when he gets into that process, you know, is there a structural issue or not the inside of the building is actually sheathed with plywood. So I think there's this certain amount of ruggedness. And this is just something that my parents really want to have done. And so I'm hoping. And looking at the pictures. It looks like it's a race panel. There looks like four sections tall, but it says no windows so I'm assuming the top panel is solid as well. So I'm hoping, and I'm sorry that we didn't actually get a print out from the garage door company. They're hoping to have to actually have not to have raised panels they like this. They prefer the smooth. And they're actually, I think hoping to not even have windows in it, which is a change from what is there currently. My father to be totally clear they're paying for this. But you know if the if the desire was that they put on race panels that they'd be willing to do so. And so there's there's certain definitely flexibility on our end. So it's just the door. Say again, how wide are the existing doors existing doors are, I think both in the eight foot range. Eight feet feet. The same thing with the post in the middle. No, he said he's going to take he's going to take the post they're going to take the post out post is going to come out he said it's not needed structurally. So what they what they could do if they need it, if they need the structural strength, they could add a header above it. Yes. Yeah. And in fact, I think, but if there's a if there's dresses up there you may not need the structural strength than any way for framing. You could always put a header a 60 foot header across that space for the 16 foot door. Yeah, that's that's correct. I spoke at length with Bob about this. And, you know, I we I think we just sort of agreed that we might as well put a glue lamb header in there. And, you know, I also know Chris lumber up, you know, pretty well and I think I know that he would hope to see that. And so I, you know, that's if that's a desire. You know, I just it just doesn't make sense to me to go that route. I don't I really don't think there's any structural issue like I said that the garage, that garage happens to be a staple plate trust system. I think it is the one that's below is not it's not she then it's open is definitely a staple plate trust so I assume that it's the same. It may not be and we'll find out when we get the work on it. Okay, you say that you're going to have windows or no windows. The parents desire is for no windows. There is a passage door that has a window in it. Likewise, there's a, you know, there's of course lights inside. So no windows and four panels. Hi, and again there would be a flush panel, not a raised or panel but a flush panel. So that is the desire. That's what my parents are hoping for a color would remain white. I believe so. Okay. It's obviously not an historic garage. Not with T 111, although it has its own special place in history. Anybody have any questions comments. Well, I can go through the criteria I will read down through for all projects exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The requirements and alterations to non historic and non contributing structures show respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings. And the remainder of that is acceptable existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height of besides, as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings in the facade of a building shall create a rhythm acceptable. There are features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable. All in favor of the application speaker names. Eric. Martha I'm a yes. And Steve says yes so the application is approved. I'm going to go back to Timo because they committee didn't make any specific recommendations or tweaks to the application. We will try and get the permit issued as soon as possible because we don't need your signature on the form. And can we just mail it to you. Okay. It's on the street that's that's perfect. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm going to log out now. I don't have a convexity to go look at so enjoy. Okay, good luck with your project. Thank you very much. Okay, bye bye. Next applications for 46 Berry Street TW Wood Gallery in Monteverdi music music school placement of new signage in a mural. I'm going to get two forms here because I had that the mural doesn't qualify as a sign so that's got an all project with the limited items to review and then the sign form. Okay. Someone here. Well, we've got three some ones so whoever I'm going to mirror that I'm going to speak first and then I'm going to let my colleagues in the room answer questions. Okay. Perfect. Thanks to Reese. Okay, so thank you everyone for hearing us this evening. My name is Teresa mijo and I am the vice president of the board of trustees for the TW Wood Gallery. In council chambers we have Susie Swanson, who is sitting right there raising her hand. And we also have John Landy who is our treasurer and trustee. And also is a treasurer and board member for the Center for Arts and Learning, which is where the gallery is located at 46 Berry Street, and I will be referring to Center for Arts and Learning is cow just in case you get confused. The Wood Gallery, as you may know is home to 19th century, the 19th century collection of Montpelier native and American master painter Thomas Waterman would a contemporary exhibition art space for Vermont artists and the holder of a historic art work from the work works progress administration era or WPA. And in fact the council chambers that you are sitting in our grace with WPA era watercolors which the gallery has on loan to city hall. We are here to seek approval for way finding signage to the gallery. Currently, there is only one sign for the entire building a Cal lawn sign on Berry Street that was installed some years ago. There's a small shingle hanging off that sign with galleries name on it. Other than that shingle there is no indication that TW would occupies half the building. Nor is there any way for visitors to know that the entrance to access the gallery is located down Monsignor Crosby Avenue. We cannot tell you how many phone calls we get from people standing on the corner of Berry Street and Monsignor Crosby Avenue GPS is in hand who cannot figure out quite understandably how to get to the gallery. This sign permit application is our attempt to rectify that problem with four discrete new signs and address marker as there is currently no street number on the building. Two signs above the entrance on Monsignor Crosby that announced the gallery's presence and our logo and our name and raised letters on the facade over the Portico entrance. In our application you will see renderings of each of these proposed signs. In addition, we are proposing a mural depicting one of Thomas Waterman Woods most iconic paintings of Montpelier, the quack doctor to hang in the Portico on the wall to the left of the gallery entrance stores again you'll see details of that in our application. We believe these new signs and the mural are critical improvement to the building, and they will help promote the gallery as a vital Montpelier cultural center both to our residents and to visitors to Vermont. Thank you for your consideration we will do our best to answer any questions you may have. Make sure you're near the microphone so that everybody can hear you. That was very well done. Very well said. Do I have to turn it on? No, you shouldn't. No, no, no, don't, don't, don't touch. Just scoot your body closer, keep the chair closer. So don't don't like touch anything on there other than maybe to bend the microphone closer to you. Sorry I could see Orca in the background shaking his head rapidly. I didn't help I use my mom voice so you did a very good. At least you didn't get a ruler across the knuckles. On the mural. Is that removable. Is it on the building or is it on some sort of other kind of the intention for I mean there is no mural there right now. The intention is to, you know, the building is brick and mortar, and the intention would be to attach it via little screw placeholders, not in the brick but in the mortar. Right. Okay. So it is done on either a piece of board or some sort of right. It's a composite material that the person and the company that's doing all the other signs is doing this one as well. Okay. Teresa, I'm just going to ask, could you hear Susie. I do. Okay, perfect. I'm just making sure that that's all working. Thank you. Some people's voices don't carry very well and so something to be really close to the microphone but you've got the right, right voice. You just tell me exactly what to do. I'm not sure if the color of the lettering is is an accurate blue, but I have a suggestion, only because the readability of signs has so much to do with contrast. If you look at the picture of the ground sign. There's a small picture of the ground sign there. Look at the difference between the Monteverdi sign and the gallery sign. May I ask a question, which are you talking about the shingle that's hanging beneath the center for arts and learning. This is the ground sign and front. That sign is already there. That's not a proper sign. I know that one's already there. I'm just suggesting, if you want the signs to be readable, look at the difference in the contrast between the Monteverdi sign and the gallery sign. Okay, so the both signs are already there, but you're just making a suggestion. You don't have to change that one, unless you address it up, but I'm just I'm just showing the readability is in the contrast of the colors. Now I'm not saying I'm not saying don't use blue, but use the darkest blue, you feel you can, because the darker you go, the more readable it is. I'm specifically referring to the new signs you're installing, the TW wood. There are blue doors underneath, but if you were to make that as dark a blue as you can get, it certainly will match the doors down below. It doesn't have to be the exact same color, even if you go darker. And then, in particular, that vertical sign, the proposed facade sign, the vertical sign. Again, if you've got a white background, make that blue as dark as you can, and it will be more readable from the street. So I just have one comment about that and I totally understand what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing, but I just did more of an explanation as to why we did it that way and that is, if we were matching the colors in the logo. Right. So, I mean that's if you were willing to stretch that a little bit. And again, it's only the suggestion for you, you don't have to but you want if you want to make the sign as readable as possible go with the darkest versus the lightest background to show you the most readability. Now, do we know to pass that on and again, you might be able to tweak the color a little bit and still have it within acceptable, you know, acceptably close to your logo. Right. We can actually make the logo color slightly darker and not make it look different from the normal. And again, I'm just looking at your looking at the ground sign and looking at the difference. Right. Again, the sun's going to fade it out over time anyway a little bit, but again, I'm just trying to make it. No, I understand and you're also trying to make it so we don't have to redo the sign anytime in the future, although we have. We're working with some folks that have said that basically the way they make this composite sign, they are very durable. And actually the lettering itself is metal, you know, so it should last quite a long time. The lettering stands out from the building of the lettering is raised. Okay, I don't know if it gives you the dimension of the lettering. I think it did somewhere. And again, I mean the font the size everything is fine. Just tweaking it to your benefit as much as you could within your, you know, color scheme or your logo. The terms of the amount of six and a six inch metal. They, so Martha was just asking about the amount of signage and they're well within the allowable signage given the amount of frontage that the building has street facing facade. So yeah, they're, they're just fine. I did quite a bit of research on that. It's almost ad nauseam conversations about Meredith is like, I hope she doesn't come back. No, that looks very nice. I had, I think having the street number there is really going to be helpful. And Trees wasn't joking when, you know, I mean, we have been thinking about this for a while I'm the newest board member so I can't say we haven't been thinking about as my understanding is, you know, a number of years ago we kind of started down this path. But, you know, in today's terms people put in, you know, things in GPS and you go down Berry Street and I think I know they're on Berry Street but there's nothing that indicates that it says it's 46. And because there's treats and it's a little busy because of MSAC next to us. It's just we want that ease of clarification. Yeah. So I think that'll be incredibly helpful. And plus, you know, we've done, we have a sign design assisting us and placements and how it looks and, and we were very careful to make sure that when people drive up. They clearly see, you know, this is the gallery this is the entrance not the front door, the front door isn't really a front door. Therese has her hand raised. Oh, I just wanted to add to what Susie was saying that we opted to put the number sign on the existing lawn sign and not the building because, as Susie just said, that front door is actually an emergency exit is not an entrance to either the gallery or to the public school or to the offices for the Center for Arts and Learning. It is simply, so we didn't want to confuse anybody by putting and putting it on the building so that's why we opted to put it where we did. Good choice. Yeah. Easy question. I'm assuming that the mural is going in the same kind of an alcohol for your entrances. Yes. It doesn't show up on the drawing of the old school. Yeah, I think it does, but it doesn't mind I don't know what maybe you get an older bird. Yeah, okay. I'm not it's not for the same mouth of the. Okay, yeah. That is the main entrance as you go down Monsignor Crosby Avenue or whatever it's called. It makes a lot of sense. Yes, right over where you just right over where it said St. Michael's school. I actually don't know. Yeah, it used to say St. Michael's school doesn't. Okay. Yeah. I'm a newbie to town. We have, I'm an old B to town. And I have to say we have some people on the board who have been on the board for many, many years and are very protective of the historic value of the building and so we have been very cognizant about trying to make sure that, you know, we are keeping. Making it look like a school but you know we realize it was just cool and all that. Any other comments, questions, anybody have. Then I'll go down through the criteria, and I'll do first for the mural exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings will be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing properties in the district. Removal of historic materials and that doesn't apply here character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship they characterize an historic building shall be preserved. There are no deteriorated character defining features. Treatments that cause damage to a start materials including but not limited chemical or physical treatments such as sandblasting or should not be approved. And again your placement of the attachments for the mural and the mortar joints is right on thank you. It's acceptable. The next thing building should be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use any new development shall be differentiated from the old but show respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. And that's about all that apply. So this is for the mural. All in favor of the mural speak your names. Martha I say yes, Eric and Steve says yes. So the mural is approved. Three to zero. And then the next area list is for the signs size location design color texture lighting and material of all exterior of all exterior signs within the design review overly district shall be compatible with the building and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable. Where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and sign bands on historic structures acceptable. As multiple tenants so shall be consistency and placement in size among all signs acceptable. Recommended the sign placement be centered over building entries acceptable sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining materials on the building acceptable in Masonry buildings fastener shall be in the mortar joints acceptable. Sign design color and typography shall respect historic precedence where appropriate and she'll be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable. Sign support structure shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves acceptable. All in favor of the signs speak your names. Martha I'm a yes, and Steve says yes as well. Just administrative. Yep. Oh, did I not do the workout on that one. You can get them to sign. I've got 10 here you can use. I can get one of your signatures. You didn't put any recommendations on here but you're here so they should have signature consistently. You don't want to sign here. And then here. Both. Both. Long over. Nice. Good play a little cut down on your phone calls. I'm going to ask for directions anyway. Susie's to develop to terrible crush on Meredith. She's going to keep that. Thank you. Unless you want. Otherwise. Once these are issued the permits issued will mail it. Okay. Okay. But we can tell our contractor to go ahead. Yeah. Really, really appreciated. Thank you for making this. Good. Thank you. You're welcome. Good luck with your project. Thank you. Okay, you don't have to stop now. I've got a meeting after this one. I'll be here for a long time. Hi. Thank you. Bye. Hi. And is someone here from Kellogg Hubbard or should we move? Nope. Jesse's here. Oh good remotely. There you go. Yep. Sorry. My computer kept muting me. Hi everyone. I'm Jesse Lynn. I'm one of the co-directors of the Kellogg Hubbard library. I feel like I should start off with a, an apology because we didn't, it didn't occur to us that we might need to go through design review for some of the benches and tables. So the benches are in place. You might have noticed them at the library. And the tables are on order, but I'll tell you a little bit of the backstory and then we can talk a little bit more about it. Okay. There were two funding initiatives that helped to support this happening. So one was a capital campaign that the library did called give the library a lift that we completed. And then we had a lot of funding to support different initiatives. And one of them was to create a new outside space for patrons to enjoy. And that's part of the backstory of the benches. The library was funded by the library. And one of the co-vide related grants that the Vermont department of library sponsored. Was a grant money for. All libraries to be able to create outdoor spaces. Because that was such a need during the pandemic. And has been a continued need for people who are seeking safe spaces to be able to use library Wi-Fi. And just to be able to enjoy books and enjoy being into each other. And so that was one of the things that we did. And one of the things that we did. The department of libraries and went ahead and started purchasing things. And then truly. Apologies only realized after that we needed to. There was a process we needed to go through outside of the grant that took a lot of time to figure out how to get. So in essence, what that does for us. So you'll see in the pictures in the packet for the library. So the three benches. They're different ways. We've worked really hard. I've worked really hard over the years to have the main street entrance of the library be sort of more of the traditional. Kind of historic. To kind of keep in line with that. So the three benches that we purchased match the two benches that have been outside of the front of the library for years now. It's kind of that more traditional when you're looking at the main street side of the library, the three bench, the two benches. And then the two benches. And then the two seating area sits to the left of that is tucked back where there used to be a peace park monument. I've been unfortunately fell apart over the years when we had to remove, but there was formerly a different sculpture in that area. So we had had this thought for a long time of making that into a space that. Would be a good space for book groups and small groups to be able to use on the side of the building. But we wanted to have the benches. We wanted to have a space for the library. And we have sort of a particular aesthetic that we're aiming for on that side. On the school street side, we're going for a sort of a more of a kid friendly. The school street side is kind of, is our primary children's entrance. It always with the addition being kind of front facing. It's always out of kind of a different feel. You'll notice this year we added adder on deck chairs that are very colorful. And man, we hear about that all day long. So we have a lot of people that are in use constantly. So in keeping with the kind of that colorful look, we, the tables that we were. Have ordered to add are also colorful. Primarily for use by families and for use for our children's librarians to be able to do programs. So one of the tables. Is an ADA accessible table. That would be used right off the walkway. For larger groups. And the other one is a smaller kind of four bench for like games, card games to be a kind of game, like board games to be able to be played or families to have picnics. So we were looking for things that are very washable, kind of colorful again to keep in line with this idea of kid friendly. But that would stand up over time to the. Elements and also the high traffic that we get at the library. And then the chairs, the adder on deck chairs will come inside in the winter and they're going to move to the back of the property. And then they're going to move to the back of the property. And then they're going to move to the back of the property. So most likely we're going to shift to the back of the property and lean them up so they wouldn't even stay. Outside all year. We're going to have to sort of see when we get them. But they're also, I mean, they're 300 pounds. But our idea is that with staff, we can move them at once we kind of get a sense of where they're going to work best. And then we could adjust them for programs. So that's kind of where we're at. That's, that was our idea and intention and kind of how it works. And then we're going to move on to the table. Are they full sized or are they child sized? They're full sized. So they will fit adults. And one, if you see in the picture, one has like the four benches around. So it's, it's set for a kind of like more picnic style. And the other one is, I think it's eight feet. But it's their ADA table. So it actually extends out so that a wheelchair can come up on the ends. So you've already placed, they match the ones that are out in the front on the main street side. Yep. Correct. Okay. Yeah, this year we, we haven't done any kind of a more permanent securing of them. They're just in place with wood. And the idea was to kind of see how they, how they work feel, see if the placement feels quite right. Cause sometimes you put things out and then you realize, if you shift it a little bit, you'll get a little more shade. Or if you adjust it just so, you know, you'll get a little more shade. So we wanted to kind of give it a year to sort of get a feel for. If they were placed exactly correctly before we think about whether we have to add. Anything to, to secure them more properly, but we haven't gotten there yet. Does anyone have any comments, questions about these movable objects. Yeah, it's, it's called into one of the specific things we look at for some of the things that we need to do to make sure that we have a good way to anchor them. I, they add around that chairs. I could say, ah, you can bring those inside it during the debt, you know, at different times, I'm not going to put those in, but these, especially the anchored benches, I couldn't find a way to improve it myself. Well, actually they're just sitting on skids. Well, right now, but the plan is to anchor them. Anchor them. If, if you do anchor them, a good way to do that would be to put some kind of a. A good way to do that would be to, you know, put them on some kind of. Either a slab or stone. At least that makes mowing. A little more. A little easier to deal with. Yeah, totally. We did that with the front ones. We actually had a donor who was so, got so disgusted with the dirt pads that inevitably get created around them that we put them, put granite under them. But now there's dirt pads around the granite. So it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I didn't really, didn't really meet the donor's wishes, but, but yeah, it was. Our lawn mower appreciates that. Okay. So anyway, there's only one of the criteria. Of the 16. That applies. And this one is for landscaping, screening and site furnishings. Projects within the design review, and the design review. And so there are two requirements in section 3203. Shall consider the following. Sight furnishings, including fencing, seating, and other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. Existing historic and contributing resources, such as street trees, fences, gates, walls, steps, gazebos, walkways, front and side yard patterns. and walls and fences should be compatible with the site and building and scale traditional materials designed that reflects the period of the building or compatible with the surrounding context, acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. There it is, yes. Martha, I'm a yes. And Steve says yes. So the application is approved. Wonderful, thank you all so much. Thanks for all your help, Meredith. You're welcome, Josie. I tried, I just, I couldn't find a way out of it. No, no, you're good. I should have, I should have thought to ask in the first place. So we'll, Audra's already drafted the site plan report that we have to do to go along with it. I've got to review that. And then we'll get this out the door to you as soon as we can. Awesome, great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. And our last application is for 138 Main Street, owner of Vinceluzzi and applicant, Sandy Vincenzo. Come up to the table. Welcome. Hello, how are you? You're welcome. So yeah, just make sure you speak into the microphone as best you can so that orca streaming in our recording gets it. That's an okay angle that way. I can see everybody. I've got a nod. I mean, is it okay if I take my mask off so I can speak more clearly? Okay. So I suggest focus on the door first since that's this application. And then give a brief, super brief introduction to explain the context. Yeah. Okay. And then just, and then I would say focus on the door so we can get that decided because that need to vote. And then the other things that you wanted to talk about we can talk about after this time. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. You're probably all aware and familiar with 138 Main Street which is definitely a landmark building and it's on the historic register. I know it was my father's favorite building when I was growing up. And I just found out that it has had a ballroom on the top floor and that the tower that goes up. Anyways, we did an energy audit for Vinciluzzi and Chuck Reese, who specializes in energy retrofits for historic buildings said that in the 20 years that he's been doing audits, this building was by far the worst of all the worst. He said it wasn't even comparable to the worst that he had done before. He in fact had to turn off the blower. He couldn't even get it to 50 past scales and he couldn't get it to stay at an even vacuum. So it's a seriously bad building which goes along with the incredibly high amount of fossil fuel that it uses every year. So they both as an effort that they had been planning to do for a while before oil prices went up but now it's made much more urgent due to the oil prices. They're trying as quickly as they can to get as many renovations as they can do this year. So the airlock had been an obvious thing to do first. That was the furthest along. That's what we're gonna focus on tonight. I just wanna be completely transparent and let you know that there's four other things that are moving along. I didn't wanna bother Audra today with an application, so hopefully. She wasn't here anyway, so. Okay, well, hopefully they will make it to you folks on August 1st, these other four but I just wanna be completely transparent that this isn't the only thing we're asking for. Yes, be happy too. So that is, and I'm happy to share pictures of you if there's timing you wanna look at them, we're happy too. Because we would honestly like your feedback on things like, so the first is that they're switching to wood pellets and there has to be a silo for that. And it also needs to be, the legs can be in the flood plain, but the pellet part can't be obviously. So that and then they're, wait a minute, let me just look at the cover sheet to make sure I get everything. They're also switching to ductless mini splits for the seasonal heating and air conditioning and not the entire building, but basically the top level and then some of the second floor buildings that have a lot of heat gain. So there are two condensers that they've been able to get down to. One will be on the roof in the back and the other one will probably need to be on the wall, the east wall that faces the, let's call it east, faces the roundabout. And I'm happy to show you pictures of that tonight. I had everything ready to submit the application. I was trying to get it in so you could at least be aware of these things, but I have that picture. The third thing is the front porch that we're talking about tonight. The ceiling is, as far as we can tell, completely uninsulated and there's a heated space above it. So those floors are very, very cold. And so we're asking to remove those boards from the ceiling. In the process, they probably will not be reusable, but to replace them with bead board of the same size. And right now it's painted black. So replace it and replace the color. And the fourth thing is in the process of the analysis, we had the engineer there and we realized that the windows aren't really in keeping with being in the floodplain. The floodplain's actually right, just right about the first floor finish floor level. I'm sorry, the design elevation is right around the first floor that the actual floodplain's a little lower. So I think we've got that right. So the windows the engineer has proposed that 11 of them may be 14. We're just that part we're working on as fast as we can. We'll have to be replaced with vents and then we would either break up or use wood infill in the windows, painting it black. Again, we would like, these are the things we really would like some input on soon so that we can try to get them priced out and get a design. We would like to be fully cooperative with design review, but for instance, we need to figure out with that pellet silo, if you would like it screened, would you prefer it to be black or green? Vince Luzzi doesn't care, he would like to do it. It's three meters tall. 10 feet. 10 feet tall, but it has to because of the floodplain be on a concrete base, so to be about two feet. So like 12 feet, but it's actually because the whole first floor is so high, the top of that I calculate will be less than the roof that's adjacent to it of the porch. So I think we can screen it. But to merit this point, what we're here for tonight and the reason why I'm here and hoping it can be decided tonight is because they won't put it through into the production line and we're not sure we can get the airlock in this fall, but if you don't have enough time to finish this tonight then it would go to August 1st, but we can't pay the deposit and get in the production line until we have an indication that it will be approved. I have done, that's tonight's is the airlock. Yeah, tonight is just the airlock. But any input you have on the other aspects will help them put together the next application. Yes. Is there a wood? Is there a... The airlock is part of the problem with that provision of other things. Well, it's just that I started on that first, like we haven't got the design for the pellet boiler yet, so we don't know the size of the silo. So I am putting in the largest silo because we have, there's not a lot of time, this is already the end of July. Since the application tonight is for the airlock, why don't we address that first? Okay. And then we can, at that point, we can ask some questions about the other part without sort of... I would be thrilled. I would be thrilled if we could do that. So... Actually, the location of the airlock is perfected. If you're facing the southeast direction, it'll become a solarium for that front entry. Well, back when Margot George was on, she on the planning commissioner design room. Anyways, back then, Vince tried to get almost exactly the same design through. And Margot wanted it to be removable seasonally. And now that it's really necessary, we cannot modify the front door, we know that. We can, for instance, take out the front door and actually we can put some weather stripping in it, but it's a double door and it's just inherently got some problems. For instance, it can't be locked. Oops, I probably shouldn't have said that. Well, anyways. So the airlock... At the time, there wasn't a way to make it seasonal, but now Portland glass can make it seasonal. So they've come up with some technique that the only thing that would be permanent would be a channel up in the ceiling, which is so high. Like I really, I can barely focus my eyes up there. It's painted black. These channels would be black. It's so high that... Anyway, so... And then I forgot to say this in the application, but there would also need to be some channel on the brick. And I'm trying to get that as close to the edges and as unnoticeable as possible. The rest of it can be removed, including the pin that would hold it on the corner into the floor. We have to drill a small hole into the floor. I forgot to say that too. I can't believe I... There wasn't any narrative in this and I just forgot to do that. So, and then we can replace it with a plug in the other, in the whatever seven months that it's not being used, a plug on the floor. So we think that it will have a pretty minimal impact off season. There are some mailboxes on that sidewall already and we're gonna put them all inside the airlock. So there's kind of a line already that would be there. Vince would like to put a keypad on that door, which would then require some kind of panic bar on the inside. The also the other issue is that the porch landing doesn't meet full ADA regulations for the doors. The door is gonna swing out in the direction of egress and it should theoretically have three feet beyond it, but obviously we can't... There's no room for that. So I've pushed it over to the side so that people can go out kind of at an angle and then come down the stairs. Chris Lumber has approved that. I've already shown it to him. So I think that's it for what I can think of to describe if you have any questions. I have some really basic questions. Is the building being used residentially now or is it businesses? There are three residential units in the building. One in the far back has its own door off the side porch and then two up at the top on the third floor. And what do these double doors open into? The grand vestibule. Okay, and all of the offices or spaces go from that grand vestibule. So it's basically an open space there. And then the stairway going off is also inside that vestibule as well. Yes. And it's a kind of a grand staircase. It goes up three stories. Okay. It's been wavered so it's not closed off. Okay. Is the material in the airlock entry or are they framed? Is that framed around the glass either? Yes. Well, we're gonna have to use plexiglass because it's removable. So otherwise it would be super heavy. Yes. They have a really hard one that isn't scratchy. Yes. And I submitted a sample. I hope you still made it to you, Meredith, of the black metal. Okay, I think Audra put that in the original file downstairs. Okay. I can run downstairs if anybody needs to see it. No, that's okay. It's okay. And then the door itself is metal as well, or is that a... So it's just metal and then this polycarbonate material. Everything's black metal or polycarbonate. So the actual airlock itself is see-through, but only completely. Only the structure is... I noticed that the frame is heavier on the door with the lock. Because of the lock. Actually... If I have been trying to get a code for the entrance door, it's a push button access code. If that could be, then maybe there doesn't have to be a lock on the outside. But right now it's proving very difficult because it's a two-door unit. And you have to be able to egress with only one action. And so you have to have a push bar. It's complicated, but right now... I just... No. Or the smaller we can make. I wish it... Well, that's why I have actually been advocating for no touch pad on the... Yeah, I could see. I think it'd be a good idea to lock that. I mean, otherwise it's gonna keep flipping in. They would be very visible, however, because the light stays on all night, but like, you know... Still. The... And Vince is willing to take it off for... Yes. I think we gotta, as part of this program, I said to Nate that it can be installed. And then I don't know what... Yep. He said whatever pleases you, it's desperate to try to get the building more efficient. That would be a real game changer for me, Sandy. I don't like the looks of it. I understand the reason why, and I understand that we all need to be a little bit more energy efficient, but it kind of breaks my heart to see this big thing in the front of this gorgeous building. Well, the precedent would be Vermont Mutual. Yeah. Yeah. What an idea of what percentage of savings, heat savings, companies going into the door. That door is a major contributor to the problems. It goes on, there's a big vestibule stairway and stuff, right? It goes straight up. Yeah. And the doors opened all the time. So, you know, in and out, it's a major entrance and exit. So I... I mean, I can't say that I like the idea of putting something there at all, because I voted against it when I tried before. But I think now that it's removable on a seasonal basis, and it is reversible, if somebody decides they want to take that off, it's not going to be much damage to the building and putting it up or, and even if you can just leave it, you know, the seats don't want to go on. It's not going to be much. In that, I should also say that I've specified that the screws can only go into the mortar. And also, I think you'll see that there's pendants on the arch around the door. I've specified that it's passed by it. And it said it won't move up on it? No, it's going up to the ceilings because it's going to be supported by the ceiling. It looks from the pictures that the entryway actually is arched, it's onto the porch. Yes, onto the porch. So like the entrance is, but the ceiling inside is... It's much higher. It's much higher. The ceiling's like almost a lengthy high. Oh, really? And that's where this is going to be flat ceiling? Yeah, we would put the black channels against the black wood. And... The other panel, one that's hidden behind the blaster is the third of the point. It's probably... Yeah, further. Yeah, it'll be between the door and the blaster. Yeah, it's well inside. If you look at the floor plan, you can see that it's well behind. Yes. Yeah. Yep. And it has to be this wide so that you can get in the door and I didn't want to get into the actual door trunk. Yep. What would you... What would there all gonna be? I'll be squashed into the airlock area. Stacked. Yeah. Well, you can just make a double row and bring the outside ones inside. Yep. That's pretty simple and straightforward. Yeah. I mean, the other thing, as far as, you know, attaching it to the mortar, they make a molly that accepts a machine screw so that if you've got three points of attachment, you could run three mollies in and then just leave them in the brick. And they're gray, so they disappear. Yep. The color disappears anyway. And then every time you take it off and put it back on, the machine screws go back into the same mollies. Yep. Yeah. And those we're thinking would be permanent so that it's not coming in and out even now and having to eventually be switched off. The other thing is the, when you drill into the floor to attach that corner, you can use the same thing. You take the screw out, remove the frame, and then put the screw back in, which is gonna be a little, you know, three eighths and quarter inch. It'll disappear and just put it in there, which maintains your... He actually had a sleeve that would stay there and then there's a plug that would go over in the summer. That works fine too. What would you, if you were proposing a season, what would you do? A May through October or the summer or to be off? Well, we had snow this year at the very end of April. So it seems to me the goal would be off first of May. Five, 15 to 10, 15 or 11, 15. But I mean, it's hard. Two falls, I just know because I have a garden. Two falls ago we had our first snow and we had heating season by December, or sorry, September 15th. And last year we didn't have first heavy frost until I think there was a second week of October. I don't think we, the problem with global warming is not that it's just easily just like shifting up. It's that it's more dramatic storms and more erratic storms. We just, for enforcement purposes and we have to just pick some days. I know that for the outdoor seasonal seeding arrangements, things like that around downtown, a lot of times October 1st is the end date in part for ability for city plows, things like that. And this is a different situation, but October 1st is a time when we're often looking. Could we do May 15th to October 1st? I'd rather see it May 1st. I don't know if we could take these very weak season. Yes, so in other words, your winter season when the airlock would be there would be 10, 15 to 5, 15 to May. Let's say that would be good. Okay, I get why we're doing it that way. I'd rather see it come off the 1st of May, but that's my feeling. Well, you still have cool evenings. Oh yeah, but we're not gonna be able to do that. That building sucks. How many gallons of fuel will that building use in a season? True. Right? If it's getting warm, they can take it off soon. It was like a crazy amount. What, four, 5,000 gallons? I think so. I'm hearing you, Martha. Oh, I don't know. I'm trying to find where I put that. So 5,000 gallons at $5 a gallon is $25,000. That's a nice, easy commutation. So up until 2021, they were spending at least $11,000 on oil a year. I don't know how many gallons. That's at about 250 a gallon. So double that. Yeah, they were using 250 a gallon. You double that to makes a nice round $22,000. Hard to have affordable housing in town when you're paying. Yeah. There's kind of numbers. So the recommendation would be that the airlock would be up from 10, 15 through the following May 15. And of course, if we have a warmer season, they want to take it down. Take it down earlier or put it up later. Or put it up later. That's certainly fine. And again, that gives you through leave season, which is usually the last week in September or first couple of weeks in October. Yeah, October 15. Yeah. Columbus Day. Just make sure you're at the mic, Eric. Columbus Day is the, I broke it. I think it was just the one with cover. Columbus Day is the, Lisa, you're gone by Columbus Day. I have, I don't recall seeing leaves of any sort of color after Columbus Day. Yeah. You know what? It still works without that, right? So don't worry about it, Eric. I'll fix it before DRB. Yeah. I think it still works. Yeah. You said it does. It just doesn't have the, like, a strong winds. But in the meantime, we're not allowing you to touch anything. Yeah. Sandy, are you going to be able to sign for Vince that you agree with the time period? Yes. Okay. Great. Any other questions regarding the airlock entry? Okay. I'll go through the criteria applicable to the application. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of historic materials. It's not applicable here. Character defining features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved, deteriorated, no deteriorated defining features here. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited chemical or physical treatments shall not be approved. And again, the attachments in the mortar joints is acceptable for this installation. Existing buildings should be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size, scale, architectural features, detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. Proportion, compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable. Rhythm, visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings, windows and doors and the facade of a building shall create a rhythm. Patterns of solids and opening shall be preserved to the extent feasible, acceptable. And lastly, windows and doors on historic structures. Character defining windows and window and door patterns, placement sizes, proportions and original features such as trims, sash and moldings shall be preserved to the extent possible. When preservation is not possible, such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind. Windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced but such replacements must be compatible with the building, historic building style, materials and architectural features acceptable. All in favor of the application for the air like entry. And again, the recommendation is recommended season for air like entry is October 15th through the following May the 15th. We make that a requirement rather than a recommendation. Well, it's you're recommending it be a requirement. So I'll put it as a requirement on the permit. Given that all in favor, speak your names. Eric says yes. I'll say yes, just with the requirement. Okay, and Steve says yes. So it's approved three to zero. Thank you. And you have a pen up there, Sandy. So if you can sign under Steve's name on this and that way, we'll be able to move forward on issuing that permit. I can give you about five minutes for questions on the rest but we're gonna have to all switch over all our technology to the meeting. Yep. So what I wanna just do, I'm gonna skip through the forms and I'll actually skip the length of the cover letter. As long as I get them all, they can go ahead and order. But that's what we're submitting for in advance. Right after you see the top sheet of the silo there is a couple on job sites, not my job sites, other people's job sites. One is black and one is green. And then I did a sequential view, walking down Main Street. You cannot see it at all from school. You can't really see it from over by the library and the Methodist Church. And you don't really notice it walking towards town. It's really towards the roundabout. And interestingly, there's only about 20 feet along the sidewalk where you can see it. It's behind, there's a tree right there. You'll see in the foreground. And then there's the side porch. And I thought Vince had a good idea that very commonly on side porches you see trellis going all the way up. That this would be a good place for something like a black trellis or there's a lot of black and then there's a dark green on the lot of dark green and gold. So I was thinking black trellis perhaps. And then the whatever color you think the silo should be it would be behind that a few feet. I would paint the silo black. Okay. Only because if you look at, I mean, a lot of outside recreational areas, thinking of ski areas. All the towers are painted black because it blends in with the landscape. Okay. The tree bark primarily black. Yep. Or gray, dark gray, black, dark brown. I mean, the dark colors will disappear. And if there's any landscaping around that the black will disappear with any landscape. How about the, well, so when this comes forward I'll be asking, would you like to see a lattice and maybe would you like the lattice to be green so that there's a contrast to it or leave the black, the lattice black. I would paint the lattice black and I'd put a climbing. Any kind of viney. Ivy or vine or something that can climb up the, and again, just depends. Okay. Although those tend to keep moisture on the wood. So I would hate to do a vine that ends up making the rest of the building. Well, a square lattice and pressure treated. Or they now make a square lattice and a clear or ASAC. Well, that's white, but I'm not worried about the trellis. I'm worried about if the vine goes up onto the roof then cause that's an historic roof. Okay. And then so item number two is the two condensers. So the one on the roof will not be visible to anyone from anywhere except for the apartments that are across the river. And I guess I don't know what to do about that. Can also screen the condensers with a lattice as well. Okay. Yeah, we saw that with the memory care unit further down when their applications they had to put it in the roof and they just did, it wasn't even just the kind of same kind of fencing they used for around their garbage area. So if you have, we're already using that kind of trellis somewhere else doing that or some kind of fencing. I actually tried to see if we could find a black condenser cause or dark brown because I thought that would go better against the brick as well. And we can still keep looking for that, but at this point it's like off white. Yeah. Sometimes it's the camouflage versus the actual physical screening. Exactly. So the front condenser, I don't know if you saw the, where I drew it on the photograph, it has to be two feet above the highest flood level. So my thought was to put it right next to the two meter or six meters that are already there and put it where it has to go. And Vince would be very happy to add a lilac bush or something in front of it. The built, and actually they make a stand that you can put the condenser on, but we've used the building mounted bracket. That's what we're planning to do is a bracket. Very inconspicuous. Yeah. And they worked great. It gives you the perfect spacing. Yeah. And actually we've enclosed one with lattice. It was mounted to the building and then we basically put a post in the ground and then attached the lattice in an angle around it. Well, that lattice would be in the flood plain. So we'd have to ask you if that's okay in Audra, if that's okay. But I think they'd be interested in that or something again, like, oh, I can pick that up. Like a lilac. Like a lilac. One thing I noticed when I was walking towards city is that that lawn between camera on, you know, the red brick building with the big columns and this building is that lawn in between is really kind of nice as a break between large buildings. And it's a very deep lawn that it kind of looks nice having it be the bare wall there. So maybe a lattice would be good in that that would just, you know, not be as bulky as a lilac. The fact that it's going to be something like eight feet off the ground when it's done, maybe seven feet, it means that that would have to be a good size shrub. The number, am I done with the five minutes? You can get like a couple more, but I've already got people trying to sign on to my next meeting. Okay. Because I tell them to try and log in 10 minutes early. The last thing was the floodgates. So the choice on the floodgates, oh, well, then the ceiling, do you think that anyone's going to have problems with taking down that ceiling for insulation and then putting the ceiling back up? It's going to be the same. It's going to look the same, right? If we can reuse the boards, we will. Same materials. My experience is usually the boards are just self-destruct with the, because it's tongue and groove. Now, as far as insulating above, would it be foam or would it be dense packed? I usually use, for cold floors, use rigid extruded polystyrene because it's the highest R value and it doesn't have to be netted. It can go in. If they use spray foam there, then they can't go the full depth and I try not to have a gap between the ceiling material and insulation because then it could condense on top of the ceiling material condensation and then ultimately rotted out because there's not a lot of ventilation in there. So my thought was fill the whole void. And the use, like all seasons, has a minimally expandable foam that fills the space but doesn't pressure the building material surrounding. It would have to be done in lifts because it's, you know, I don't know, we don't know the thickness of the noise, but if it's 10 inches, my thought is just take it down and do it, is fill the void and get it back up. As long as it's the same material, same style dimension material. And paint it in the same way. And then the thing on these flood vents, so the building got a grant after the 92 flood and moved up almost all the mechanicals and wiring out of the basement. So the problem now is that they didn't address the windows and what I'm learning is that they don't have to address the issue of those being basically portals for water to come into the basement. They are allowed to leave the voids there, the openings in the, because water would break the glass and go in. So they're allowed to leave that there. The engineer said it would be much better for the wall and the whole structure, if it ever did go to the hundred level or higher to have the flood vents in there. And then the other really serious issue is heat loss through that glass because the glass, it's hard to keep it from not cracking because it's so close to the ground. So the thought is to fill and he doesn't care whether it's with two by fours or with brick, but we thought that you might like brick better because some of the windows are filled with brick already. And then whether they stayed brick color to match the upper brick, because the base is granite or if it was painted black to look more like the windows. And then if it's two by fours, they would also suggest painting a black to look like the windows. There is already one window that was removed for the oil. So- Or just leave the windows, frames, fill it in with whatever you wanted. Don't try to match the brick. They're not gonna do that. So don't, you would rather have it filled with two by fours insulated. You would still read. Yeah, so they will read. And then we can put trim around it. That's fine too, to try to replicate the look, but the problem is the glass. Now, if you're filling it in, how does the vent work? What are they suggesting for vents? It's an insulated biway vent, bilateral bi-directional vent. So our thought is to put them in the upper corner so that the water can rise. It's really a last ditch effort because if the water only rises a couple inches, it's used to that much pressure, but as it goes up, it's really dangerous. Now, how big is the vent? 16 inches wide and eight inches high. I've got nine minutes before my next meeting. We're gonna have to wait and approve the meeting minutes the next meeting. Sorry guys, I've got people trying to come in. No, thank you very much for this time. We're really very much appreciated. You're welcome. Okay. Thank you. Well, if you start getting pricing on the woods, I appreciate it. Thank you. So we still need a motion to adjourn officially. I move adjournment. Did you want to approve the minutes or would skip it? We gotta skip it. I just don't have time. So all in favor of adjournment, speaker Nates. Eric. Martha. Steve. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you.