 REFINGF Millennium swings senseis국 Year 2017 – Invest Document form of the Assembly YMCA the committee has received apologies from Jenny Goldruth Before we move to the first item on the agenda can remind everyone present to ensure their mobile phones are on silent for the duration of the meeting The first item of the agenda is for the committee to consider whether it wishes to take items 4 and 5 in private Are we all agreed We are agreed Rwy'n edrych. Rwy'n edrych. The second item on the agenda this morning is to take evidence on the carbon accounting scheme Scotland amendment regulations 2017 draft. We are joined this morning by Cabinet Secretary for the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform, John Eiland, Deputy Director of Decarbonisation and Tom Rossin, Policy Advisor for the Decarbonisation Division. Good morning to all of you. Cabinet Secretary, can I invite you to make a short opening statement on the draft? Given that this draft SSI is of a very technical nature, I thought it would be useful just to say something about the background. It's also very useful to me to have the two technical experts here this morning as well. All of the emission reduction targets in the 2009 Climate Change Act are set on the basis of the net Scottish emissions account, which includes an adjustment to account for the operation of the EU emissions trading scheme in Scotland. The calculations which implement this adjustment are set out in the carbon accounting scheme regulations under the act. Until there is a new climate change act, the Scottish Government is of course committed to discharging its obligations under the existing 2009 act. One of the key obligations in this regard is the statutory reporting on annual emission reduction targets. For each annual target from 2013 onwards, it has been necessary to use routine sets of amendment regulations to introduce new provisions to the carbon accounting scheme regulations in order to allow for the next year's calculation to occur. The present draft SSI makes the third such set of routine technical amendments, which will allow for statutory reporting on the 2015 annual target to occur later this year. The draft SSI also makes two amendments, again of a purely technical character to existing provisions in the carbon accounting scheme regulations, one of which updates the definition of one of the listed types of carbon unit so as to reflect the current phase of the EU emissions trading scheme. The nature of this particular update means that the act requires the present instrument to be considered under the affirmative procedure as opposed to the negative procedure, which has been applicable previously. I am happy to answer members' questions, or perhaps more correctly, my officials might be better pleased to answer those questions. I suspect that members will be well off questions, so I invite members. Thank you, cabinet secretary. I have no particular issue with the SSI, but as you know, I have a particular interest in the EU emissions trading scheme, which you recall I have raised in the debate and I think I have raised at this committee before. I appreciate that that is not something you, cabinet secretary, have a particular lever of power over. Nevertheless, you will be well aware that the ETS is made up of the 28 EU members and the three EEA members, of which the UK is a member of obviously both. My concern is what happens if, during negotiations, we are no longer part of ETS. I have raised the issue, would you rerun the times model to include this, but this effectively takes the rules away from the game? Have your department looked at a scenario where Scotland would not be part of ETS? Obviously, the possibility that that will be the case is something that we at the moment have to live with. I have had some conversation with my Westminster counterpart. It is fair to say that, at the UK Government level, your thinking has not really crystallised around anything in relation to this particular area, so at this point we have not got a clear path forwards. Obviously, the draft SSI has to reflect the fact that the EU emissions trading scheme was operational in Scotland in 2015, and that does not change no matter what the future is. The EUTS will apply in 2015, will apply in 2016, will apply in 2017, will apply in 2018. The point that I think I am making is that we will be dealing with these carbon accounting regulations in respect of the EUTS for some time yet because, in actual fact, the time lag means that we will be discussing the 2017 situation in 2019. The fact that, by 2019, in theory, we could be out of EUTS does not mean that, in 2017, we were out of EUTS. Because we are dealing with that couple of years time lag, we are always going to be dealing with the EUTS at least into the foreseeable future. We cannot operate on any other way. Clearly, there is an uncertainty for the future in respect of that. Should circumstances change regarding the EUTS, then adjustments could, in fact, be made to the carbon accounting scheme regulations if required? What I cannot say is what they would be because I do not know what would potentially replace any EUTS. Final question. Have you considered asking your officials to go away and work up a UK EUTS system on the basis that it is obvious from next week that we are going to have article 50 triggered? We need to look at some form of contingency planning. I appreciate that you cannot look at the crystal ball and detect what will happen in 2019, but there is a strong chance that we could be out of the system because the current members, as the name suggests, are all EU or EEA. We are not going to be in either body in two years time. You are asking me to task Scottish Government officials to come up with a scheme for the whole of the UK. Is it possible that you could raise the issue with your colleagues in the UK and see whether a UK system is one that is viable? I have raised it, but they are currently not considering a UK system. Beyond that, I am not in a position to say one way or the other. It is useful to get that on the record, however. Cabinet Secretary, can I pick up on something on the paper? It says that the domestic aviation cap and international aviation cap are calculating a similar approach to the UK's domestic aviation cap. I thought that the rest of the UK did not count aviation emissions into its figures. In fact, I thought that we were the only country in the EU that counted aviation emissions. Could somebody clarify that for me? As far as we know, we are not aware of any other EU country who does this. As far as I know, the UK does not either, so I am not quite sure what the... As far as I know, we are the only ones that do. Can I clarify? The distinction here is between including domestic aviation emissions, which the UK does include in its progress to its statutory emissions and production targets, and including a share of international aviation emissions, which only Scotland does. Okay, that's a difference. Okay, and across the EU, most of the countries count their domestic, but not their share of international, or do they not count it at all? So, under the EU emissions trading scheme, emissions for flights within the EU are available for trading under the scheme. So, do you have a distinction between different types of international aviation then? Okay, right, thank you. Can I also ask when we can expect the Scottish figures this year? Well, as far as I'm aware, it would be the same as previous years, which is to say June. June. I think the normal process is that I would give a statement in June, I think. You're required to give a statement by the end of October 31st. But it's normally... Was it not normally being published? Oh, right, sorry, the stats are published in June. I think the statement can come later. Right, okay, so we can expect the stats... The stats to be... Before the summer recess. ...in June, yes, before the summer recess. Okay, thanks. And the exact date of those will be pre-announced the month before. Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Claudia Beamish. Thank you, morning cabinet secretary and officials. Could I just ask if there would be any concerns in relation to this affirmative instrument in your view in relation to meeting our targets? Is there anything that is altered in a way that would give us concern? No. Thanks for that reassurance. No, no, no, it doesn't. It's quite difficult to be frank to understand. Yes, it's very technical, but it doesn't change anything in that sense, yes. Thank you. Thanks, morning cabinet secretary. Can I just ask about back loading as well? Previous years has been a withholding of carbon. I think in order to make the ETS work a bit better and raise the carbon price. So how does that relate to this SSI that's being put forward this morning? So the methodology for determining Scotland's share of the EU emissions trading scheme cap for 2015 has been published in a technical paper by Scottish Government analysts. I believe that paper has been, sorry, a link to their papers are provided in the accompanying policy note for the draft SSI. The methodology for undertaking that calculation has not changed from previous years. It's been subject to stakeholder consultation and it's in line with the recommendations of the committee on climate change. Does that help? I was kind of wanting a little bit more of an explanation. I mean, I think previous years carbon targets have been met partly because emissions from heavy industry have been back loaded effectively. So I'm interested to know what the implications are for this year. Because I think the assumption was that there'd be more carbon coming onto the system later on because of previously withheld emissions. Are you actually asking a question now about how the stats will be made up when we get them? As opposed to these regulations? Well, I'm specifically asking about the back loading arrangements, the withholding of carbon in previous years through the ETS arrangements and how that is reflected or not in this years. This doesn't really change? So it'll be reflected in this year's calculation in a manner which is exactly consistent with previous years. What the current draft SSI is doing is setting out the cap side of the calculation. The emission statistics which will come in June will set out what actually happened side of the calculation. On the cap side, the approach which has always been taken is that there's a defined methodology which takes the whole EU ETS cap, which as you say has these kind of adjustment features within itself in relation to back loading. And then a portion's out to Scottish share of that. And the method for a portion's out to Scottish share remains the same as in previous years. So it will reflect the current situation regarding back loading through that same calculation. Any other questions? Okay. The third item on our agenda today is consideration of motion S5M 04481, that the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee recommends that the carbon accounting scheme Scotland amendment regulations 2017 draft be approved. There is an opportunity for a 90 minute debate on the subject. I suspect that that may not be necessary. Cabinet Secretary, can I invite you to speak to and move the motion? Can I just formally move the motion? That's fine, thank you. Do any of the members wish to speak? Excellent. Cabinet Secretary, do you wish to wind up? Oh, I would love to wind up. Yes, right. So I put the question on the motion. The question is that motion S5M 04481 in the name of Rosanna Cunningham be approved. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. The committee's report will confirm the outcome of the debate. Are members content to delegate the signing off of the report to the convener? Thank you for that. Thank you Cabinet Secretary and unit officials. It's next meeting on March 28. The committee will take evidence on the review of the protection of wild mammals Scotland Act 2002 from Lord Bonomy, the chair of the review. The committee will also consider the protection of seals designation of haul-out sites Scotland amendment order 27. As agreed earlier, we will now move into private session. I ask that the public gallery be cleared as the public part of the meeting is now closed.