 All right. This is a convening community call and it's Friday, March 25th, 2022. We're getting close to the end of March. That is just nuts. And it's lovely to have you here. I kind of want to hand off to Stacy to just sort of restate a little bit of the thinking that led to this call and then head back in. Well, the idea of this call was, you know, seeing so much energy around some of the subjects that come up on the OGM mailing list to see if there was a way that we could better organize and schedule those calls. But I really wanted to, I really wanted to get a better sense of what would work for you. Like what would, you know, what would, what would you find a value in terms of scheduling more help me out. And also, many of you have put in a whole bunch of effort to either shepherd the cats or add content or whatever like into OGM and all the affiliated groups. So I think I think we share a passion and interest in making this work better. And a piece of this is just about what would work well. And I will speak for Stacy for a moment and she will correct me because I will be wrong. Stacy values seeing heads and eyes and features and expressions over tippity tap tippity tap oops play more. And so hi Grace, we're just just getting rolling. And so I think that Stacy would love for there to be more ability to connect, I guess in the zooms because that's sort of our default medium at this point for for seeing each other's faces. But if there was a standing zoom that was open 24 seven Stacy would be really happy because then it'd be like, Hey, you go to the coffee shop or the bar and you see who's there. So that's kind of part of the part of the mix maybe. I don't know exactly how you that's not the craziest idea. It's not. It's not. I'm actually putting that together anyway. Well, there we go see it's done. That was so quick. Yeah, calls over. Yeah, I remember. I remember talking about about how GM should work like a year ago and and that notion came up. I think it's like the church, you know there are people who just want to walk into the church, even if they're bone there there's going to be one other person works problem is the drinks at the bar in the church are not very good. Well, we'll change that. Although, although I will say, I attended my aunts 50th Jubilee my aunt was a religious sister of mercy. And I've slept in a convent multiple nights because I visited her in Jamesville, Wisconsin, which also happens to be home to Paul Ryan, but let's ignore that for a second. That was before way before I knew Paul Ryan existed he was probably still a teen in high school at the time. But I visited and they had this 50th Jubilee and the party was in the rectory actually and we went to the basement of the rectory where there was a pool table it was basically a man cave. And then there was a table with a in the kitchen there was a table with a whole bunch of bottles of booze, and Father Max this very young priest walks in, pours himself a glass at like a tall boy of Scotch with a couple cubes of Scotch and like fills the glass and walks back out to the living room I'm like, Okay, the priest life is different from what I thought it was. Sorry for the air drinkers, they are drinkers needed to get through where they wouldn't be staying that vocation. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, yeah, I do think that if those of you who are complaining about the drinks and the food at your religious ceremony belong to the wrong religion. And my synagogue there was like, there were there a couple it was you know in Israel and there were a couple of people who are Brits and Canadians and Scott and like there was a whiskey contest every freakin like who brought the best whiskey it was. It was insane man. Oh I just got back from you know, it's good stuff. I've actually been talking, I was actually talking about Peter as you guys probably are aware I've been bringing my people over into the matter most. I had a telegram group and I completed this last workshop which I do these six week workshops. And if there's one thing I don't want to do is I don't want to be an online chat community manager. It was just not what I want to do. And every time the people like, Oh, but we're going to miss each other. You know, and I'm like, Okay. I'm going to have this discussion with Peter. And what I've been envisioning is a campus. And I'm looking at Topia now I this week's been really rough I'm in London. There being the I have a friend who's been through a rough time with his business and needs help closing it down and doing all that crap. And so I just like everything got shoved aside this week, except for like a really a lot of stout. That's the way you get through shutting down a business. Oh yes, I went to the public, I was the public last night and like I couldn't quite figure out like whose beer was what and I'm like oh I don't know this English pub thing and the guy next to me guys don't worry we're all out of practice. But let me tell you, every pub and everything was packed. Everything was packed. Anyway, so. So, I was talking about this idea of having a topia, which would have different areas of discussion similar maybe parallel to some of the threads on the matter most because they happen to run parallel to my workshop. And that my workshop would start to run on these kind of, you could learn each lesson at the, at the pace you wanted them, and then come at a certain hour. But that was our regular hour and sit at the table for the discussion you wanted. But at other hours I was thinking about them. There's a crypto commons group that has stuff in common with us the GM group and I was thinking I could have a little office like in the topia and I would just sit there all day, and have like closed office hours open office hours take my meetings there it's cheaper than zoom. And that's the difference. And have that be kind of an open campus and I really had envisioned that it would be an open campus for all of these different groups that like you guys and other guys and that. And just like the campus there's a lounge right there's the student lounge and you can just go hang out there, or you can go to the table for you know and you can announce I'm going to be having this meeting at this time and in this room. And really, I've really been thinking that that is. And the idea of the campus really spoke to me because I like doing these workshops, and then I like being in a position where people might come back and say hey, I've got a project I want to run it by the group. And then you guys have been really generous with me. Or, you know, I want to, you know, I want to do a few sessions just on whatever it is NFTs, because that wasn't a thing last year and all my graduates in my workshop. You know, there wasn't NFTs the first time I ran it. So we're going to do a two session thing on NFTs you know so the idea of like not that you're there every week but it's there's there's a continuing education you come in and come out and maybe make the OGM call which has a totally different nature of it. And yeah, that's what I've been envisioning. I mean, I don't know how many. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. I was just thinking and I don't know if this is possible, because there's so much going on and every time I go to OGM people are working on really interesting things. Anywhere that we can I know that we have these matter most and all this common stuff. Is there some virtual metaverse that we can park things in that we can put all of these incredible projects that people are doing and you can kind of pop in and out. I don't know if that's a crazy idea but is there something like that. Rob, do you mind if I answer that before going to you and then Wendy. So a couple things. So Pete's Plex newsletter watch and are you familiar with it. Okay, so just a month ago rough, maybe a month and a half ago Pete started a bi weekly newsletter where he goes around to the different projects he says what's new. And then he puts that all into a newsletter and sends that out. And then I chatted with him a couple days ago. And I was like, gosh, I sort of wish that was a webpage not just newsletter because if it was a webpage we could just go to it and see what projects are up and what's new. And then he said, yeah, I've been in conversations with several people, and it kind of needs to be a dashboard. So then that went back to conversations we've had over time about hey wouldn't it be cool to have like an OGM slash other projects dashboard or we could see what's up. And he brought up a prototype you had done an air table of course and we sort of looked at that and we're trying to figure things out. And I don't know where that's gone. But, but kind of forever I've wanted there to be a what's going on right now what are the standing calls and where are they. What what's up with all the different projects and also how do I join like if there's a project that sounds interesting how do I enlist. And we don't really have that. And it kind of needs to be done in some nice open fashion in the way that massive wiki tries to architect things etc. It's so interactive that we can actually yeah it's a digital workspace right that that has rooms. I mean there's a lot of metaverse stuff going on that. I don't know. Yeah. Rob then Wendy then Grace. So for me and I've started a couple of threads in the in the mailing list. I do like being on a call like this and talking to people but I have fairly limited time to do that and in particular I have a work conflict when the weekly call is on so I'm rarely on those. I have a couple of streams here one is the projects that Ingrid you're just talking about, you know, popping in and different projects and see what's going on. I'm probably more interested in this, the sense making, and I always am left with the feeling with these amazing people on these calls like, you know, and regenerative agriculture or on. You know, Ukraine and Russia and, you know, various topics. There are people that have, you know, decades of a head start over me. And I'm I look to OGM to increase my to try to learn about the nuances of topics that are not coming out in the main the main media. And so I would I would like one of these spots to grow a layered nuance conversation about topics X, Y and Z that we can all add to. And I don't feel like there's a great platform that that does that. In a couple of the chats I said it's like, Miro plus the brain plus, you know, a mind mapping tool or something something that's a sense of place that people know to go there. But you can, at least for me, asynchronously add to that that knowledge map, if that's what it is. So that's kind of where where I'm at. And you offered up a very nice beginnings of a proposal to build something like that that sort of is a it's a platypus between some of those different things, which is great, which could still be fit the rooms metaphor I'm not opposed to a rooms type, you know, metaphor. Wendy. Yeah, I have a lot I have a lot of ideas first I want to go back to Grace's point about a campus and and and Topia, I think I've only used Topia once as a participant, and I found it really fun. It's just really really engaging and fun spot. It's just a little bit friction full to think to like just the navigating to people talking together, you know, like how close do I need to be and who gets the voice of the of the room in the area and stuff is a little bit wonky. But in general it's so fun it kind of doesn't matter. I see that being like a really, a really cool step, or something to try out maybe for some OGM calls to see, see if, if that's something that the, that the community likes. I'm also hearing a lot of stuff about like to I'm starting to parse things in my mind into two different camps that I think sometimes get interwoven in conversation. One camp is the onboarding process right like I'm new to this community or I haven't been here for a while, I don't know half the people I've only met half of them I don't know what the other half are doing and somebody just said something interesting to me that all kind of falls in this onboarding how do I find out more information about X. And for that we need some semblance of a repository of you know that everyone was putting in the dashboard and then I liked what Rob said to but then there's the sense making part. How do I weave something greater from what I know already exists. And for me that's can be similar technology, right maybe facilitated differently or the flow is a little different or there's more either by the technology or by a person. But I see it being very similar and I started mapping out some stuff along that I don't think OGM is alone by any means and wanting this kind of it's what I'm hearing everywhere and every conversation it's such a sticking point, because we all get to know a lot better but the normal pathways to having richer conversations take a while, they take a long time, and it takes a long time for trust to build, and Jerry, who is in almost all the OGM meetings might know everyone and see how Rob and I should be talking to Rob and I haven't really met before so it takes us another nine months. How can we, how we can, we facilitate that. So that I recognize, oh no like Rob really has something that I should be talking to him about next week, like let me. How do we get to that, so that Jerry doesn't have to make sense out of that because as these communities grow and get more complex, Jerry can possibly be in the middle of all of that he'll explode. So how do we help that is what I'm hearing and then Stacy adds her piece, which is like, and all these rich threads that come and go, and, and don't find a home almost to get off the screen and into person to person so that the thing that needs to emerge or if there's a little tension around a topic, it can be get talked about instead of it exploding on itself or imploding on itself, and all those rich things that OGM is ripe for can can can take fruit flower sprout, whatever. Go ahead. There's been a number of times where I've been watching an OGM thread, and everybody's do you can sense that everybody's there because they're all typing their responses and I just want to be able to say, let's go to this room and have this conversations. And then we do get to know each other. And it's right there in real time and if you can't make it then the, the email is still there, you can still, you know, contribute there, and maybe continue it on. I'm Grace you had asked for the floor a little while ago. Oh, sorry. That's okay. You're still muted. I just, I have this really deep need to say that our AI sucks balls. And the whole language we're using to talk about this is fucking bonkers. Like, what are we talking about maps and apologies and directories. It's, it's an AI empowered news feed. It's a social network. It's how do I know that we knew somebody who runs a news feed. No, but you guys, you guys get it right. And that's what we're up against. We're up against money, which is, you know, my focus, like how do we create an alternative to money. And you guys can all be in the how do we make a living and I'm also in the, you know, like I got to make a living right, you know, and it doesn't. It's everything's fine. I'm fine. Like that's, I get, I've been having able to have the privilege to separate this work from my making a living work and it's very successful for me. But it'll probably merge pretty soon. And money is one infrastructure but the AI infrastructure and that net social networking infrastructure is really we haven't even begin in any of our conversations to have an appropriate conversation of what that looks like an appropriate conversation of how you do AI, for example, just to start is to say, okay, let's map all of these meetings we have who introduced who to whom, who gave whom feedback, you know, like, I know that, you know, I know that Rob gave me great feedback, Wendy gave me feedback, okay, you know, like who are the people and then did I integrate their feedback into my thing that, you know, they gave me feedback on not yet, but I am working on it. It's very challenging, really good feedback. And, and, and Kevin gave me feedback, right. And it's like, okay, now we know that this is a typical type of match right, and then Jerry had some feedback session who was in the feedback session there which of which of the feedback that Jerry wanted on his on his thing was useful to Jerry. Right. And then you've got, you get a couple of those right couple meaning like 100. The AI starts to understand how to give you the right matches. That's the conversation to be having not this how do we map it and, and, you know, not have Jerry's head explode. And briefly before passing the mic to Michael. What is now holo holo chain holo everything is a splinter piece of the meta currency project which Arthur Brock Eric Harris brawn and jump from Swan Nubel we're working on for some 25 years. And it doesn't even get to alpha. Well, the meta meta currency project which they were working on a lot covered a lot of the stuff you just said it was about how do you track value flowing through systems, you know, ecosystems human systems, etc. It ran really really deep and then, and then slicing off a chunk of that and trying to make that actually flight proof to be really really hard. As you just said, but, but yeah you're making reminding me of efforts to do this kind of thing it's it's non trivial but it's important. Yeah. I was going to say that that short of building. I'm wondering if there are ways to. You know I hear I hear what Grace is saying and I feel like that's what we're so many of us are building toward and, you know, already doing things in siloed and separate ways. And it's frustrating and I, you know, my broken record is can you just make a deal that we're all throwing our stuff in the pot, and you know, doing one thing but that is really hard in the world where people have to make a living and feel like brand and whatever, but I think one thing in the GM world that we could do that Vincent and I were talking about is like have more of a profile along the kind of a link tree model that that is a lingua franca among us that has the links to the things that we're doing and the at least the reputation areas that we feel we have something to offer in, and that other people could or could not, you know, endorse or add or, you know, just basically tagging ourselves and allowing other people to tag us in some way. And so there's at least some tether to like, oh I see this conversation going on matter most I see this conversation happening in an email chain. Who are these people. Let me see a picture of that person have I met that person in the meeting or not. What, what are the links to their, their thing, you know what's on their schedule of, you know, they, I mean it would be depending on how ambitious they are to be able to get with this, it would be great to be able to say, Oh, you know this person's a standing attendee of the weaving the world meetings. Oh, and those are happening at this time. Maybe I can join that. But, but I'm just, you know, putting out there as sort of a first step that we don't have just a little bit more of a digital presence for for each of us, starting simply, you know, so we can find each other. And the other thing I was going to say just on a more mundane note is the very, the very existence of a schedule for OGM and things OGM seems like something that, like, if it were, if it were, if it were put in a Google calendar, and I hate to say Google but you know, if it were put in some kind of calendar, and you could subscribe to that calendar. That seems like a pretty low lift. And you could decide who was, you know, who had the access to put items on that calendar, and who didn't. At least we'd not like their meetings that I was attending regularly and I don't know exactly when they moved to so I haven't been attending them, and there's no place to check. And so I don't go. And, you know, yeah. On that very last item just a couple pragmatic things early in OGM I created an OGM calendar and started adding people to the and actually the reason I like Google groups is that I use Google groups as an access control list. So I would make the OGM list, the Google group be the attendee to the calendar event. That turned out to, I don't remember the problems it caused but it was causing double entries and a whole bunch of feedback and a bunch of stuff that wasn't really working so I took it down. If I, if some black belt Google calendar user were to say, hey, here's the best way to do that. I would like jump on it and we could then share the calendar and it'd be great. I'd have no trouble with that at all. But I kind of tried and failed early on, and I'm not not good enough at that doing that kind of thing. But also this idea of who's in the room and what do they care about goes back to the first months of OGM. I've wanted this forever. And I'll say that Vincent and Prove are an attempt that's gotten pretty far down the road to solve some piece of that. Right. And I haven't been on the flotilla calls. But you know flotilla is trying to, yeah. Grace is saying this feels like flotilla and and I'm like, yep, we're sort of talking about how do we blend and merge the tools. And we're having a surprisingly technical conversation here. I mean, the tools and the platforms pretty quickly. Wendy then angry. Yes, I was muted. Yeah, I was just going to, I want to skip to angry because I've already had a chance to talk, but I just want to say very quickly that also a lot of this functionality art exists inside category trove and a lot of us already have directories there. I mean, I remember Grace mentioning at a recent flotilla call it, you know, could we get this more integrated, could we have more AI do I have to enter all my profile information yet again. And to me these are short term. When I hear that I'm like okay we have short term, we have long term and AI is one of those things for me that's long term, you know, and and I don't want to wait for some of the stuff, isn't that complicated. And we could get it easier and faster. If we're willing to compromise a bit on functionality and, and, and, and willing to deal with a little bit more friction. And I think category is already built out, and it would be an easy, an easy way to, to use something sooner. Anyway, I'll let finger go. Cool thanks. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm new to this and I don't know if this has been covered or not or how I got here but hey I just was thinking, is there what I feel like and I come and go in the in the calls every week so right I'm not the expert on this, but it feels like at the end of the week, we will just go back to another free flowing conversation the next time and there's no continuity between any of the conversations, and I feel like okay look I'm coming from a very like practical project manager perspective, but at the end we would have a follow up steps and I know this is really rudimentary, but we would have what are our blockers what are people needing what you know and I know we have the Google group where some of that is discussed. Is there a way to make it more apparent somewhere. And I'm just going to say I'm going to throw it out there. I remember about six months ago I said, I want to share my deck with a bunch of people. I sent it. And I didn't hear it was crickets afterwards I don't know if I went to people spam or what happened. It kind of made me think, do I bother people about this. What is the end goal of this group, are we, how are we helping each other because the conversation I mean it's a bunch of brilliant people, but if there's sort of no directive at the end, or what is our next concrete thing we're doing with this information or what are our blockers how do we help each other. I don't know if I'm completely off on a tangent or not right now but these are kinds of the things that I think about because I feel like there's so much knowledge and every time I go. There's so much potential but how do we tap it, you know. I agree entirely. And Michael, do you have your hand up from before. I did want to say, you know, to this this point of our overlapping flotilla. I, you know, I get that I'm trying to think of ways that we can. And this is what Vincent and I were referring to in this conversation we had something that isn't a trove slash category of Google groups of factor of, you know, massive wiki of this one thing. Oh, you should all go to this one thing. That's the thing, but rather something that was sort of flatter and more interoperable that that pushed you if there was something that pushed you trove there's something on factor that puts you a factor, etc. So, I just, you know, I do, we are overlapping flotilla but you know I've been going to flotilla for year and it's awesome and I love it and I come back every Friday, but we're not, we're not yielding anything interoperable and I don't mean this to be like alternative flotilla world. It's like we have to, we and flotilla still have this, I think short term goal of, and honestly, I'd say the plex newsletter is sort of one of the first things that sort of not it's, it's everything and nothing, you know, it's just a simple. Hey, this is this is what unites us this is what connects us, as opposed to, well I'm doing this and I'm doing that. That's all I know. I will dig up the, you just basically sign up to ghost, which is the service that Pete is using I'll find the link or someone else will find the link in grid and put it in the chat. And I put myself in the queue here because I wanted to add two things to the conversation. One of them is relative to what Michael just said about not one platform not one tool. And here, my short hand for this is the data from the apps, and I have an unfinished essay and in open in a tab in my browser that has too many tabs open, but it's called data is the new soil, because I can't stand the data is the new oil trope, I hate it, it involves hey, we should extract it protect it sell it off, like this this data, all these people's personal info is exactly where we're going to make a fortune coming up. We can't stand that. And if I flip it on its head and say it is the new soil, then hey guess what fertile healthy soil is the commons. And if we can figure out how to meld and match our data so that we have access control and privacy still, and yet, things that need to aggregate up aggregate out of this healthy soil layer wouldn't that be cool. So right now the brain has its own proprietary little data storage format. So does kumu so does mind jet so does whatever. We separated those things and when I was looking at the healthy soil layer through the brain, I would see things, you know, visualized as as brain links and so forth. But but then, and then if I curated a link that's talks about platforms, and then Rob came in and looked at that same link with a different tool, he would see any upgrades any any benefit I had brought to that particular node. And we don't have this in the world it doesn't exist. But there's some really simple ways of doing this. So I posted in the chat, kind of half jokingly that Derek Sivers wrote an essay sometime ago and he said, I'm doing a now page I'm tired of really long signature files and everybody's email. So slash now is like the you know in your in your root directory slash now is what am I up to now. So I picked that up. And I have a now page which I put a link to there which I don't update often enough I just updated a couple days ago. If the now pages are in markdown, they're roll up a bullet into anything you want as a profile manager or as a database or whatever. And if they had a little bit of metadata you could pick up you could hoover up any mark any slash now page that was registered with a directory or whatever, and that might work. And then the other problem is, lots of people want very different things in their profiles like, I don't want my now page to have anything you could go discover on my LinkedIn page because that's where I put my resume. And I just spent a bunch of time learning how to upgrade that it's now a good reflection of where I've been in what I've done professionally. Awesome. So that's one thought there and don't ask me ever to then enter that information again. So that's one thought sorry. And the second thought is, I have this incredible frustration all along through GM, and I think Mark Caranza has a to because he and I are the only two people I know who were busy during all of our calls, squirreling away what we learn what we see all the great nuggets all the great links off of our emails off of matter most. And I put them all in that place, and everything has a home, and it's a little bit messy but actually shockingly useful. And I can't play with anybody else in it because it's a proprietary tool and we still haven't built this next platform, but I'm busy doing that organizing from my little perspective, my little onto this vast world that we have together. And I wish that more of us could be doing the same thing with whatever tool they love into this healthy layer of soil. Right. And that and then tasks lists and project lists and project updates could roll out of the healthy layer of soil because it's basically a query on top of what you know exists out on the soil layer. And the analogy I use here is, when you click on a web pay on a link on a web page anywhere, it sends a message out to a to a bunch of servers around the world and says hey send this specific file over to Jerry's browser do that really fast now. And then my browser catches all these bits from all around the world assembles them and presents them to me really nicely. That's how the web works period. Why doesn't my brain work that way, the wet one, the non wet one the awkward one. Why doesn't this shared memory just let you have tuples and interesting information bits that that are in this healthy layer of soil distributed. And then, when I need to collect them up it says here's what meets the criteria you just asked for and presents it to me in my favorite view master view. And, and, and I love and Rob, my heart aches because I love the sense making part of what we do. And I feel like I'm busy on the side behind the curtain sense making as hard as I can actually. I think I blew someone's mind yesterday, because I had a call with Lisa SARS field SARS felled who's the sort of co co founder of system.com. She's done a whole bunch of different design things and system.com is a very, very og me initiative that has a map of issues and all that kind of stuff. And I think I exploded her brain because I started going a little too fast. Of course, you all know that I never do that. But I started going a little too fast through these things just excited about the possibility of what you know what what's what's at hand. But I'm not sure how to leap from from the little different separate efforts we have going now into this more integrated space where sorry I'll add a third thought, where we can switch from asynchronous to synchronous where we can figure out who to talk to and then send them something in their preferred method of communication where there's a place to hang out in text and there's a place to hang out in the zooms and topias or whatever that would be really a wonderful way that we can then find our way through to the people and the things that we want to know about. That's all I got grace than Michael. Okay, I'd love to stay on this call, because I love you all very much. And it's interesting. Are you drunk. Not. I am not drunk, but I am quite hungover. That's not. But, but the reason that I'm going to leave is I'm very stressed for time, because I've been spending all weeks porting my friend and I'm behind on my deadline, one, and to the outcome of this call is poorly defined. And normally I would love to be on this call because I just love chatting with you, but the outcome of the call is poorly defined. And it's not a good use of our time. And I would say that probably the best use of the time of this call right now is to clearly define what, what is it we're up to that's not flotilla. Who might take some stewardship and accountability because there's no accountability here. That's what's missing. It's like, who's saying I'm the one because I can tell you this campus is going to happen because I've drawn a line in the sand and I'm accountable for it. And I will invite you all into it and the, and the matter most, I moved into the matter most my people in the matter close because I knew somebody was accountable. And, and that's all there is, like who's accountable for what, in terms of what this calls about. And I can tell you it's not me. Have a great weekend everybody. Thanks, Grace. Good luck, helping your friend. Thank you. Mr. Christman. muted. You're muted. You're unmuting. Um, well, I, I concur. Perhaps less bluntly, you know, with, with what grace was saying about not really being sure what our goal is, you know, where we're trying to walk out of this meeting with or, you know, whether this is the first of a series on what exactly I didn't have a fair picture. And it's a great group. And the thing that I had my hand up for was just that I mentioned something in the text about this interaction we had on flotilla today. And I think it's really critical about putting information in simple spreadsheets for the purpose of it, yielding, you know, yielding files in different, you know, a CSV file that could be displayed in different ways on different platforms and with different effects of it displayed or left out and be therefore easily searchable and kind of, I mean, I think, I think the big thing that we're struggling with and missing here is that when I want to send you an email I don't have to ask what your preferred address is what your preferred, you know, email platform is and be also on that platform. My email, you know, or if I want to send you a JPEG or if I want to send you, you know, if you have an address card or an event item, you know, I can put it in my calendar, even if we don't use the same kind of calendar, and we need the dot profile and the dot, you know, information bit and the dot, you know, the formats that are interoperable that allow us to share information seamlessly whatever platform or on the way we can with email, and we don't have it. I would love to say, I take accountability for that, and I will take care of it, but you know, it's not for anyone of us to do. But I do want to ask the question of exactly, you know, of Jerry and Stacey, I guess, what are the objectives, so I'll yield to see Stacey as your hand up and Charlie which is going to say. Yeah, so my objective is totally opposite than everything that's been discussed, because I really, I'm my hand up. I'm really interested in the social component, I want to meet you people I want to talk to you about I want to hear your opinions more towards what Rob was saying about the sense making. I just don't want to sit at the typewriter and write these long emails and it's just, it's just not enjoyable for me. I'd rather know that we can come to the room and you know, again the threads on Ukraine the threads on sense making let's talk about it I want to be able to say what do you mean, why did, why did you do that Oh we did this here Oh how did that work. So, my intention was to really find out maybe even to two main things that at least the people here were interested in. And we could I had in mind, I was like envisioning some sort of like a panel discussion, where maybe we reach out to one or two people that are known to have, you know, more of an expertise in a certain area. And then I would reach out, I would be willing to reach out to them and see, you know, see when is good for them and then just advertise this call will be done here. So I just really wanted to know one or two things that you were interested in talking about, and then maybe gather six people to do it, and see what evolves yeah panel discussion on topics exactly. And that's where I was starting from just and sort of booking a call series. Yeah, is maybe a simple way of describing it. Right, but starting with one or two would have been fine and I just wanted to hear what people are interested in talking about no more technology I don't want to. You can do that upload till and all these other calls. I just want to know people. Yeah, thanks Stacy for bringing us back to the human connection which is where this starts and ends always right. So that made my brain going a completely different direction and now I don't. I think I need to think about what my next comments going to be so I'll pass the road. Yeah, I mean I like the, the continued push towards towards humanity towards getting to know each other and interacting. I guess my, my hope is some melding of the two, because I think in in the, in the video chats at one of the many people and Jerry does his best to bring people in facilitate and do whatever but I often feel like people are saying the thing that they want to say, even if it's out of the flow of the conversation. They have some point to get across some author to quote some whatever. And I forgot who said that the starts over week upon week I think Ingrid said that. I feel like I want some layers of context on a topic to build. And I'm interested in knowing whether people agree or disagree with certain, you know, let's say we're talking about Ukraine. You know, you know, I don't, I don't happen to think Putin is crazy. Well that opens a whole can of worms but I think he's crazy for different reasons that he's commonly said to be crazy for obviously anyone who attacks another country has some kind of crazy. But, you know, is the Russian military doing a good job or not a good job is does Ukraine have a chance of winning which was in some of the email threads and what does that even mean. I think those are hard to do in a panel discussion. So I want some amount of not just text, not just emails. I can't read the six paragraph emails that sometimes come out, but some something that has an anchor thought that then people can respond to agree to plus one minus one. So I think it's a tool that doesn't exist, but I'm sure I would find Stacy the panels, very, very interesting. I don't know if they would, I don't know if they would be lasting into the next month and the next month and the next month. But I don't know, a couple of different thoughts there. Thanks, Wendy, can I just add something real quick. Because again, there's different situations so when I talk about a panel it's like there had been one conversation about sense making and like Jerry and I were discussing two people that had these different approaches, and I said it would be really interesting to invite them to all because it's not just the call for the sake of the discussion. It's also to start connecting with other people, even outside of OGM so there's, you know, there's more than one reason in different formats for different calls. And I think my point is to have some, some fabric of all of that persist. Right. Yeah, and so I hear. There's a lot of value, I think, and people just being able to have pop up conversations, and I hear Pete Kaminsky in my ear going. If it turns into a really great conversation we want to recording and a transcript of that. Right, and that will, and that when the next conversation happens and half the group doesn't understand the conversation that just took place two days ago and like the happy hour. Zoom, open zoom. We're all going to feel like we're missing out on something, which is fine. If we structure it that way as we build community we can say, hey, here's, here's a conversation that began in one place and we think it's rich enough that we want to recap it and continue. So I'm not saying that that's bad to have like a hope and open happy hour we just need to recognize the fact that in some of those places. If we're encouraging more like group conversation that isn't facilitated or isn't isn't captured for repository that we we lose a little of the sense making that we have a way to wrap that back in should we want to. And I think that's just like the little note of a little flag to be paying attention to on that on that front and made me think, Jerry when you move to the Thursday calls being alternating people checking in with a topic. In my mind, I was, I was hoping or assuming that the topic days would not really be open necessarily open topics, they would like open for people to contribute topics. It would be more of a continuation, right, it would be the few people that are in more of the of the conversations in general, saying, okay, we're seeing this emerge, and we want to pick up from something that happened six weeks ago, and carry it forward, or we want it right so it starts to build and it starts to morph and it still has the ability to take a quick right turn. If something urgent happens or if there's something in the world that we want to talk about, but that that that there's a group of people holding on to or a group of people holding on to a thread that that weaves its way throughout the course of the year. I would find really rich and valuable. I would like it to happen around the better verse conversations, and, and, and things related to it, and I would, I would love, like a webpage that was a bit showed that thread so that for people who weren't familiar with the conversation they could, they could follow my mind thinking, thinking in the trove category world, I could see that being a project in and of itself that had its own, its own thread of events, you know, so that people could go to that page and go, Oh, there's like something, there's something bigger happening here and add in resources and add in comments and it could build on itself. That's kind of what I'm picturing. I also put in the chat in terms of an objective for this group. I can easily see this group say pulling putting together and I'm happy to facilitate this putting together a decision matrix, where we would put the features and things that we've been talking about today, as, as criteria across the top of the spreadsheet, and then there will be different platforms, or, or zoom chats or whatever the ideas are that we have down the side. And some are going to be long term and some are going to be short term and that can be one of our criteria is this is short term or long term kind of thing, trying to get something AI built like if we keep waiting for the long term ideal versions. I think I kind of snarkly. We have nothing like we keep waiting for the better version. And if we keep waiting for the better version, we end up not having what's, I think, obvious, but at the same time I don't want to make a decision that this to Michael's point that this is the best platform because it's not, but if a group of us go, this is you know what this is the best platform for the short term, and we recognize that long term. It doesn't mean everyone has to use it, but it's good for the moment, or we want to use this platform for this and this platform for this and that's what our community is going to do for the short term, and hopefully, and please make your suggestions and we'll consider it for the long term, right and so that it's not. We're not always waiting. My head is full. One thing. If, if my Patreon intake had another zero on it, or if the meta project had taken off and had funded our entire ecosystem so that there was some revenue trickling into each of us to play our particular roles in this broader ecosystem. Nothing would make me happier than to be spending a whole bunch of my time hosting or helping organize a variety of different threads on regenerative agriculture, the food system, all the, the, the Claus and Sam and everybody else conversation on wealth, money, value, how value flows through systems, what platforms are helping people do that it's that there's a rich beautiful conversation in the middle of which grace floated her documents about hey this is a project I'm trying to form up like is anybody interested right and the way we would be organized would allow us to go find those things and then say grace I'd love to help. How do I jump into a separate thread which is more specific that you host. It's more specific about your project and the thing you're trying to do. And I would love to see that happen and then behind each of these projects there would be a series of pages. It's like the Internet is just a series of tubes right. And so, you know, there'd be places for these conversations for the resources in a technical sense the way we were just talking about. I mean, we did sort of make some assumptions about platforms early on an OGM, one of which notably failed, which was discourse. And it probably failed because of me, and it was, you know, if Pete had his druthers there'd be no Google group. There would be a matter most server and a discourse server and I don't know what else, and maybe some other stuff but I'm not sure and a wiki actually, and we'd all be using obsidian to edit like wiki pages I happen to really like Google groups and it's unfortunately too frothy Rob tried bravely valiantly and patiently to draw us over into discourse and and it worked for a few people. I just never had time to make the rounds. So I kind of do the rounds all day long and that just eats my day from all the different platforms and all the different conversations and all the different projects. And the more anybody floats up a brand new project, which is a thing Pete loves to do. The more I get distracted by what was the name of that damn thing and where is its conversation and how does it fit into the puzzle. Right. And I get a little, I get a little freaked out when the number of things explodes. And at this point, I've taken my hand off the tiller so badly on my own revenues that I cannot in fact go host a whole series of new conversations, which I would love to host and curate. Because I don't I'm not interested in like between two ferns happening, you know, over and over again over time. I'm really interested in a thread that builds every time that makes things better every every time three minds get together and have a conversation that that is like digested mulched up and improves the shared assets that we have about that question about whatever the hell is going on there, I want that to happen. And we're not there we're not doing that. And it's frustrating as hell. But we keep talking around it and trying and poking at it right we're sort of nearby. And I'm really interested in going with Jordan to pitch a couple high net worth individuals and say hey would you pour $25 million into this particular tiller of entities. And I'm not sure that that would actually free us up to go solve these problems yet. I'm not sure. And I'm not sure we have any good decision model for hey let's you know read Hoffman's just dropped 25 million into the into the shared pot. What are our criteria for divvying that up and allocating that to projects how does that work we don't we would be in trouble in an instant there. Right. And so, I think this is difficult. And we're we're we are evidence that this is difficult. I love our intentions and each of us cares a lot about an overlapping set of principles and forces and things that that matter here. And I'd love to find our way towards solutions I'm not. I don't think I'm anywhere near as pessimistic as what I just said sounds. I think I remain a complete optimist and I think that if we, and my experience of the last two years of all of our conversations is in the free juries brain calls on Mondays for example, we break a bunch of stuff open that changes how I think. And I'm like, Oh man, I'm so glad we had that conversation I didn't know where we were going and then we we dissolved something in the middle. And my ability to explain something that that might fit together now is only based on slow and patient conversation in all these different places where we meet and harvesting and connecting and collecting from from what everybody else is coming up with. So, so we don't have the medium yet to actually do this together and I love us. I'd love us to have it. Mr. Grossman. Sorry, my mouse is working well it's hard to get to the end. What I'm going to say is not not as as lofty, but is picking up on what Wendy was mentioning about the subject. The topic calls or just the checking calls and and relating it to what Stacey and wall has been talking about about the live. This is a conference where we have a discussion that grows out of a better most thread or some group of us goes to a breakout room from meeting. I think, like, this is partly the tyranny of zoom, but you know, every meeting is pretty much like every other. It's in a tremendously different format in a sense that, oh, you know, this is this event. And I do wonder. And this is Wendy, I thought this is what you were going to say when you talked about the difference between a check in meeting and a topic meeting. I wondered if we could have topic meetings that really handed the floor to one person or one, you know, small panel of people to dive deep on a subject. You know, have it have it be more like I mean you see this in other virtual gatherings on the web. Oh, you know, Ethan Zuckerman is presenting to, you know, Doc Searle's group, like a couple of Mondays ago, I showed up for that, you know, you can send some stuff there was a Q&A, you know, I don't remember if there were breakout rooms or not that I've been to events where there were, but like that was a thing, and the fact that it focused on one issue one person and what they had to say was a galvanizing thing probably brought the following of that person who would not be, you know, maybe not an OGM person to this event. There's some cross pollination. That's a cool thing. And I'm just wondering if, like, that might be one sort of call. The general check in might be one sort of call. The 24 hour drop in when you feel like it are confessional thing. I like the confessional. What's that. I like the confessional idea that's great. I will send him to that. And you know what, bless, Stacey will absolve anyone. Almost. Almost all sins are forgiven. Except for those few. Sorry, Michael, go ahead. How many, how many hail Wendy's do I have to say. Okay, that was awesome. Like, lots. Yeah, yeah. Well, I thought the hail I thought that they like the market for hail Wendy's was going up and they're worth a lot now so you don't have to do as many value greater value. Anyway, so, you know, I think some greater contrast between the different things we're doing and having them, you know, it's funny you mentioned three Jerry's brain. I've heard that call mentioned, but I have no idea exactly when it is I've never been to one. And, you know, I would showed up. I mean, and would show up. I mean, it's, I could swear I've seen you among the faces on free Jerry's brain on Monday. Not a Monday, not a Monday. And it's a it's a, it's the only one of all these calls, at least the only one I know of it's kind of half hidden because the geeks would like to keep it at geek size and relatively manageable that way. But, you know, love to have you there. I think this is a free Jerry's brain channel and matter most right this minute, the call schedules and zooms are all at the top of each of the appropriate matter most channels. And that's, and that's about the only place where they are but that's where that's where these calls are currently listed. And then you said something along the way that I just want to reply to that's now flashed out of my head. Oh, so what you just described was precisely my intention with having grace lead us into the call about money. And just rewind 10 minutes and replay what I said a moment ago, and in a perfect world that would have spun off into its own thread of calls that would be focused around money wealth value, and would be building and would be building assets and would go off into the sunset doing stuff and I wouldn't necessarily be hosting or moderating it. There could be a rotating volunteer and Stacy's efforts are just figure out what do we care about and who's willing to step up and moderate a series of conversations about any of these things. I think and I think that was a piece of the reason for this call was like like okay what's on our minds and what will we step up to go host, and I'm trying to figure out how to do that and how to have us all happily do that because we're making sense together, and to stop having all these calls seem like they're the same. And my switching back and forth between topic and check in was actually an attempt to enforce a little bit of format shift on those weekly calls, so that they would be a little bit distinctive, and I find them to be different, but not sharply. You know, the check in format is a different thing from the topic format, and I tweeted differently but arguably from someone outside, you know. There was a photographer years ago who went around the world, and she photographed different cliques like she had London skinheads with their spiky hairdos and she had a bunch of other cliques. What was interesting was that within a clique. There was extremely little variants from the costume. Everybody was within the costume across the cliques the costumes were dramatically different. But the degree of conformity, even inside non conformist cliques was really shocking was really beautiful. I just want to highlight something else that Rob said he mentioned how like sometimes it feels like people just come there with something to say and whether or not it flows. And I just want to acknowledge that because that's part of what we I mean we have a need to be heard. And unfortunately, some people just get it in whenever they can. And if something were set up in a way that, you know, after listening to someone then you are encouraged to give your opinion you're still giving a piece of yourself. And that also connects to something that Ingrid had put about how we're not the same as we, as we present professionally, we should be. I mean, I want a world where we're the same wherever we go, and conversations and getting to know people is what helps us to move in that direction. We've run an hour, which is the time we had set up for this. I'm wondering if anybody would love to sort of recap where we are or your desires for this. Wendy you're welcome to jump in with what you're about to say but I just wanted to focus us back on. Is there an outcome from our conversation. So I just put in trying to categorize the best I could just the four different types of calls that I heard, which could actually be rotated every month. You know, and so that we're not just talking about one type we're talking about four different types or we could talk about doing two, two things together in one call just making it a little more structured that's another way to do it like the first hour is check in and then the, the half hour that follows for people who want to stay is a presentation on something specific right, which sounds a little starting to send a little Kiko lab, you know, that's the, you know, following that model. Yeah, give people hot seat. Yeah, I honestly think, you know, I'm going back to the matrix or something else, it's how do we, to me it's all these ideas are great, all the stuff we brought up is great. Which one do we want to take action on. Do we want to do something together as a group do we want to advance something sooner rather than later do we want to I mean the meta project and the money there I feel so much potential is there too but it will be it'll take a while. And, and I think it's struggling with the exact that that project in and of itself is struggling with the same things that we're talking about right this is not unique. So anything that I think we can do to help further evolve OGM into something that serves more people more regularly including Jerry and Pete and Stacy, who are at the core. I think we'll advance our experience potentially has the advance of has the potential of advancing our experiences in all the communities that we're taking part in so from my perspective it's time we're time well spent, because they're informing each other, these conversations and different in different spaces. I'm happy to continue to engage in this conversation if other people find it valuable. And I think it is important to start saying do we want to do we want to just talk about it and see what next week's topics going to be and agree together what next week's topics going to be, or do we want to really talk about a new infrastructure and how we're going to manage the entire community as a whole. Those are very different levels of work and an action. Excellent. Ingrid, do you want to say a little bit about what you put in the chat. I was thinking, because if everyone had to write what they wanted to discuss before and present it to everyone, then we wouldn't. And I know there's still, we could still have free flowing conversation but you would have to say, I'm going to talk about projects at our call. You know whether it's a presentation or whatever you thought about or the Ukraine or whatever it was, but then people could know what was coming, and then they have to present that, because I feel like a lot of the conversations seem to just go circular or people. It goes really off, not even into projects but just opinion and which is fine if that's what you want but it sounds like that's not what we want to be. I think just more focused is, you know. If we had the vaunted dashboard we keep talking about, then the check-in calls would be a matter of browsing the dashboard. And Rob would show up and say, yeah, yeah, I'll check in and then we would zoom over to Rob's entry in the dashboard which anybody could have seen at any moment, you know, 24 seven which had a paragraph that says this is roughly where we are right now. And then our conversation could leap like way forward and he could say here are the things that are blocking me here's a couple things that I'm stuck on, and he wouldn't have to re-explain the project, like none of that, right. And like Kevin Jones every time he does his checks in on the check-in thing he's like, I, you know, we're doing this project for and there's 50% of what he has to say is just a reset for the people who missed him or don't remember of what he's up to but if we were sort of moving the spotlight around that problem starts to dissolve and we then get to do a little more productive work together. So I'd love that. It becomes a thread. You know, yeah. It's a boundary object that the dashboard becomes this boundary object between our different communities, which is really useful. And I would love to be using air table or trove slash cattle and or whatever to do some of this I just don't know exactly how. There's something else that I'm interested in and it Doug Carmichael, he had mentioned, you know, if we looked at this like a mission, and I'm sort of wanting a play space to go where we say, All right, like just the way he phrased it you know we had to get rid of carbon emissions. So what will that mean to this and if we were just like, All right, well if this than that. Oh yeah but this wouldn't work because okay well what about if we did this. I'm not articulating it well but I'm looking for a play space where we can use our ideas and bounce them off each other. So there, there are things out there that do these kinds of things from world building games like SimCity and whatnot to the world game that Bucky Fuller created. Somebody has to have rift on the world game, so that we could actually like step into it and play with these variables because just sitting and having a conversation around it is really different from an environment that somebody is architected and can turn knobs and run a simulation that actually starts to make changes. There are business school simulation games where you do competitive startups and you compete for funding or resources there's a whole bunch of stuff like that that could easily be brought in as tools. We're sort of not using a lot of simulation or sense making tools in our conversations at all we're not we're not making use of what's out there. Wendy. Stacy I just want to clarify it did you really when you say play space I wasn't actually thinking game like it like technology and technological game spaces, I'm assuming you were not either. I was, I was like, basically we're sitting here. Okay people let's make a list. What are the six topics, you know what are the six things that we need to, you know, fix, you know just doing it. I'm like playing in the sandbox together and figure out. Yeah, correct. Yeah and to me that's that those are those conversations those topic conversations that you know whether it's about money, or it's about regenerative agriculture. I don't, you know it's it's subgroups I see them as subgroups of OGM potentially and just having an ability to, to say, like, I don't know how we decide this as a group right which I think is what keeps us from doing it but we say okay great. I mean, someone within OGM is going to help facilitate and this probably needs money right just so that someone can play this role. We're going to facilitate make it easy for you grace to hold meetings every week for the next four weeks, right to to gather people who are interested in talking about money at our have already gone through your course or already have some background to want to really play and start solving some of these things to come together for four weeks and see what you can do. Right, and see what comes out the other side and then bringing whatever the, the, the, the, the learnings are back to the regular group and then doing one of the weekly major presentations this is what we've been working on and this is what, you know, as a group. So I can easily see that happening I've worked in organizations where that sort of happens, except for that there's no there's usually not a very good feedback loop I don't see any problem with creating one though it's just we need someone who facilitates all of that happening, because as grace mentioned you can't have the time to hold those conversations and and be the one scheduling organizing repository and curating right it's just too much. A couple things that I'm going to have to drop off the call. So putting four of us in a room and saying how would you solve the energy crisis. Sounds like fun. And this isn't a critique of what you said I'm trying to figure out a really productive way to do the thing you said. Yeah, no, we're amateurs and we've got a couple ideas about this and that's great and we would have a fun time doing it. Two degrees from Saul Griffith I'm sure I could invite him into conversation I've met Ramaz Nam, there's a bunch of other people whose work on the future of energy is top notch world class really brilliant. It would be fun. And here I realized we're just talking about weaving the world and what I really wanted to do in the world is like, let's bring some of them in, let's then use some of our sense making tools to actually take what they're saying. And if it being showing up in a bunch of YouTube videos and PowerPoint decks if you're lucky. Let's convert it over into a shared space of knowing what we know and setting up better questions. So that, so that so that the question of, hey, you know, hey everybody solar energy sounds so attractive but when you make solar panels you have to buy unobtainium and blood diamonds. It's like, okay, good, how do we factor these kinds of things into an ongoing ever improving map of the issues that other people then start to use. And I think that that's possible but a lot of work and part of the reason I wish the metaproject would find funding and I'm happy to help is that we need that kind of that level funding to actually push through and start doing this kind of work. But I really want to do this kind of work I would be thrilled. I would be thrilled to be a Jean provocateur and sense maker in the middle of a community that is doing this kind of work together and splitting off into sub branches and coming back into conversations and solving stuff and making it better and not repeating the same conversation over and over again. Oh my god. Oh my god, yes, like that is exactly right that's exactly it from my perspective as well and so let maybe this group could create a project plan for that and present that to Jordan or right let's do that. You said you said using our sense making tools. What did you have in mind when you said that what are what are our sense making tools. Well, so right this minute I use the brain and I want to be using a different platform and we've made some progress in free Jerry's brain toward freeing me from Jerry's brain but not not we haven't completed that I can't I can't swing to a different open and collaborative but I want to. But if we had some funding, I think there's three or four things we could build that actually would let me swing over and climb on to that. Then anybody else who wants to play and help enrich the data soil could do that and they could do that from their own set of tools, because if we have a separate data layer, you know, a separate data layer to enrich then that actually works. I just add in. I've been connecting with Gary and his indie lab and stuff and I think he's advanced that a lot and that's my hope is that it's kind of the infrastructure that we need to create that kind of platform. Which one is that Giri Lagros. He's doing, he's doing a project he's called indie lab, which is an IPFS based hollow chain like and here's where my experience with technology is not going to let me describe it very well, but I saw a demo of it and it's it has the potential to do everything that we were just talking about. Yeah, it's good to have repo in the chat. And I've got a bounce so I think I'll pass the con to whoever of you would like to have the con past, but I have to be on a call in a couple minutes. I'll help wrap it up if you want to pass it. Thanks. All set. Yeah, anyway. I'm not sure what my train of thought but but I just feel like there is stuff right at the edges, right at the edges that's waiting now is it ready. Is it would it be ready next week. No right these are the long term views, and I do think that we can do something short term but this long term stuff. In the next six months it could be two years I'm not sure, certainly needs support funding support people support. And the question is, I think, it could be for OGM. Do we want to start being shepherds for some of this longer term vision. First we have to agree on what we would like to have a longer term vision of, and then it's a question of these project I'm sure we would get flooded with ideas which would be fun. And then we can make decisions right how do we and that's rife with a lot of issues. Would we want to do that that's, you know, anyway, that's exciting. I mean, someone has to kind of be a little bit of a dictator in some way because I don't know I think there has to be a focus lead. I don't think it may be a little bit too much. I don't know how to say it but like in the Dutch method it's the polder method where everyone has equal say so it kind of becomes then this amorphous thing right so who's going to make the decision that we're going it can't be sort of like 20 people. It really has to be is it Jerry, you know, what, who gets to say yes or no. Yeah, I mean, it has to be dictatorship that's a strong word but I'm just saying there has got to be a, you know, a strong vision and execution of whatever that is, you know, it is interesting that you bring that up, because to me that's where the decision matrix comes in I don't have a better example for it so I'm just going to refer to that where actually it is the the group just the group so let's say it's a core group let's say it's 20 people. I think that's a little high but let's say it's 20 people even the core group decides the features they decide the projects under consideration for the moment and it's a ever morphing document that then gets rated and each person gets a chance to rate every project as to its fit to the features and values that they want to see for OGM in this case, and then whatever projects come up with the highest score gets then read you know gets then discussed and decided that makes it much easier for people to see the value from the perspective of the whole group and set of the value just from my perspective, or the value just from the perspective who of the person who's giving the funding. Right so it is a tool that has been used many many times in other in other communities that has great value and helping to provide collaborative value based decisions that don't create conflict within the group. Would it work. I think under facilitation it would work facilitation from people who use it on a regular basis it would most definitely work. Is that something OGM wants to do that's you know that's that's a decision for for us to make. But it's it there is a path is what I'm just trying to give shine some light on the fact that there's hope that there is a path that those kind of decisions can happen, and I think it would be worth experimenting with. And I know people who could facilitate it. I'm happy to facilitate it on the on the beginning stages but I think somebody with much more experience facilitating it would probably be wise if we're if we're really going big with it. I'm all with it I'm sure I could, I could do good enough. And if the group was just five or six of us I'm sure it would be enough but if the group gets bigger, and the projects get bigger and the funding gets bigger it's wise to probably have somebody who's facilitated it. But anyway, just to respond to your concern which is an incredibly valid and important one. And that you usually the only way this stuff works is if there's kind of one person. Well, and also yeah, I mean, the thing about a document or a digital workspace with everything on it is that there's transparency and there's, you're able to actually see a decision tree. When we have conversations it just becomes. It loses its force. Yeah, yeah, so and I that's what I see when I join the calls, even though we love the sandbox Stacy and I think we can do that, even if we have some kind of directed way to do things I think we can still have the fun and the community probably even better actually, because I think who said this Michael about there are a few people that I see that are really the conversation every time. And they have great things to say but it becomes their three people kind of chatting and that's not the best thing probably best use of everyone's time. Yeah, and it's not advancing the conversation at all really. Yeah. So Rob, I'd like to have the conversation of is put in a mad man, if not, and if so, what would be the best way, and if not what would be the best way, because there is a need, at least for somebody like me to strategize to play to get to know people. So it does it you know I understand there's a lot of work that needs to be done, but building relationships is really important and to Ingrid, you know just to your point. I know that I've watched it with Wendy I've watched it with Jerry I saw it with Grace, how people just really were there to listen and help them with their ideas and I can tell you, it's because they knew them. Or when it's not that it's because they're really interested in that project. Right. Yeah. I'm sorry I'm going to have to go it's a little bit late and I've got to eat some dinner and stuff. Where are you by the way, where are you for them. So it's 930, but I don't know how I got invited but thank you Stacy, I love this group and I really want to succeed and thanks for letting me have a little tiny voice. Before you go Ingrid, I guess, let's just do a quick like thumbs up if you think another call and we'll be clear maybe upfront what we want to achieve with that call and see what we can see if we can take a step forward in some direction. And maybe Stacy I'd be happy to have a side conversation with Jerry you the three of us I'm going what's like try and hone in on what the objective is a bit what he would like to see happen for OGM. Does that make sense to people. Yeah, maybe there could just be a little piece, which is like the more human piece and I could just stay there. Because, I mean, honestly me even to be able to have invited Ingrid. That's what I want to do, because now we I mean I don't know who knew her before or who you knew, but I know you better now. And that's important. Likewise, I like that. I do. So, yes for another meeting or you're feeling like we'll just see each other at OGM calls. I think there's a need for this you guys please I think we I think we should. Yeah, I would say, I think it's going to not be good if it just keeps going on like this I think it's not where Jerry wants it to be I can sense his frustration but anyway, yeah. Right. I think we definitely got somewhere today. And we'll try again for another one and see if we can advance it some more. Is this a good time, or should I send out another one Friday. Yeah, I prefer not on a Friday to and there was another call scheduled about the book dawn of everything which made. I don't know if it's going to be consistent right now. Yeah, he didn't get. Well, and that was the thing like that was the kind of fall that I would like to be part of what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. So we're having a call about how there could be more calls like all we have to miss. All right, well I'm going to let you guys go to your thank you. Have a lovely day. All right, bye we'll figure out some other time. Bye bye.