 Okay, let me welcome you to this other new inspiring talk from our seminar series in Development Studies. I'm very glad to have all of you here and to us, Professor Jean-Marie Martins-Hallier on such a very, such a fascinating, challenging topic. I'm also glad we managed to include this in this series because I personally observed a growing interest from our students on issues related to environment, to political ecology and to political and social mobilization within this field. So much so that we now have our own master in environment politics and development in our department. So I'm very glad to offer you this talk and to see my all the new students happy. Professor Martins-Hallier will be engaging in a discussion of whether we can talk about global movement for environmental justice. He is a leading authority in the field of ecological economics. He's been professor at the Department of Economics and Economic History at the University of the Universidad Autónoma de Barcelona since 1975. He is author of numerous publications and academic articles in the fields of agrarian studies, ecological economics and political ecology. He's been concerned with particularly exploring the implications of ecological economics for developing economies. So this is of great interest to us. He's a founding member and a former president of the International Society for Ecological Economics and served as a member of the Scientific Committee at the European Environment Agency. He's also a director of the Environmental Justice A-Class. He will talk about this in more detail. We are also glad to have here Dr. Subhirstina from our department named Development Studies. He is a senior lecturer, trained as a historian and political sciences. He was written on Indian environmental history, social movements and small scale pictures in Kerala and the Malayan forest populations, as well as on plant-making civil society, Marxism and post-colonial theory, and particular on political subjectivity in relation to this possession. He has been a fellow at the Yale Institute of Agrarian Studies, a winner of the Bernstein Prize for 2013, and also author of one of the 40 best papers in the Journal of Peasant Studies. He is currently working on a book on Political Ecology of the Commons. We will have around 14 minutes talk. Then Subhirstina will engage in a discussion of the talk. You have around five minutes, Subhirstina. Then we will open the floor to questions and answers from the audience. Let me just remind you a few details. If you are tweeting, you can use SOAS depth studies and ESRC as hashtags. There will be some pictures being taken and posted on our Facebook page. There is a sign-up sheet that is being circulated, so if you want to leave your contact to be updated about not only the seminar series, but also other activities in our department, please leave your contact. For those who want to stay, that will be as usual a small reception in the subcommer room upstairs at the end of the talk. Thank you. Thank you very much. I hope this is going to be put in some web page somewhere because it's a bit long, so I won't have time in 40 minutes to go through all of it, the PowerPoint, but you can look at it afterwards. Also, as you see, there are several causes, because it's true that these environmental justice altars that we are doing cannot be the work of one person or two persons. It's a big group and Lea Tempe has been very instrumental in getting this going after three years in European projects, so we are all based in Barcelona. I'll explain because it is. Thank you. This is an article which is going to be published soon, I hope, without a question mark because I think there is indeed a movement for environmental justice in the world, and the question is how to show or to prove or to make it plausible the idea that there is an environmental justice movement at world level, and I'm going to use like two pieces of evidence, and I would be interested in your reaction to this, whether you are convinced by it. One would be the fact that there are so many ecological distribution conflicts in the world, and we are collecting many of them in these altars, but of course there are many more than we are collecting. There must be tens of thousands of social environmental conflicts in the world today at different scales, so I'm going to talk about these altars, and what the others does is explain here. We classify the conflicts, we explain what they are, and then we can select some variables and do some what we call tentatively statistical political ecology, and we are also trying to show in the future that the conflicts arise, at least the destructive resources conflicts arise because there is a change in the metabolism of society, for instance. In Argentina now there is mining, copper mining, for instance, and there was no copper mining before, so it's logical and it happens that there are new conflicts about copper mining, isn't it? This is what it means, and metabolism means the flows of energy and materials, this is what social metabolism means, or the metabolism of the economy, to study the flows of energy and materials, and then how the materials become waste and the energy becomes dissipated energy, isn't it? This is the metabolism of the economy, and a lot of these conflicts take place at the commodity frontiers, and if there are anthropologists here, must be some anthropologist, is a word coming from Jason Moore and coming from World Systems Theory, commodity frontiers. So metabolism and commodity frontiers are the kind of words which are, I'm not going to talk very much about them, but they are in the background of our work. So we collect these conflicts because we think that there is a logic to the growth of the number of these conflicts and the spread of these conflicts around the world. I said already that we do, we try to do comparative political ecology with a statistical element in it, and we also use, of course, second hand social movement theory, and we try to answer questions as the following, which I am not going to go through all of them, but for instance whether the conservationist movement appears in our samples of conflicts very often in alleles, or perhaps in in contraposition to the environment of the poor. For instance, defending mangroves, you can sometimes find poor people, poor women defending mangroves, and also perhaps the IUCN, but quite often this does not happen. The IUCN has nothing to do with environmental justice in general, I am simplifying it too much, but I mean this is what one would try to find proofs of this kind of a statement, and if we go to the bottom of this page, or here perhaps with the Chinese companies, one could do some network analysis of the companies involved in mining conflicts for leaders around the world, and building the Buddha pair, Rio Tinto, and so on, but also increasingly we could show that more Chinese companies are appearing. Of course, everybody who does this type of mining knows this, but we can have some kind of evidence of this and how they behave, and the last two last ones, I put them in red because I think we can ask and perhaps answer this question, how often are these extractive projects, meaning mining, but also biomass projects like oil palm for instance, or seam farming, or eucalyptus plantations, biomass conflicts, how often are they stopped, or first how often these projects become conflictive, and of those who are conflictive, which are conflictive, how often are they stopped? I will say something about this later on, and also we can have some statistics about how many, well we don't know how many, but I mean some figures about the very frequent deaths of environmental defenders. So this is the kind of thing that we can do with the others, and other people are also doing with other inventories of environmental conflicts. In fact, the idea did not come from us, it came from Okmal in Latin America, which is called the observatory of mining conflicts in Latin America, from grain with these maps or land grabbing, from the WRM on conflicts about tree plantations, and other groups around the world like Fio Cruz in Brazil, who already were doing maps, maps of conflicts. Of course, doing maps now is much easier than it used to be. So, and I'm going to do also is to discuss not only the others, but also to discuss these grassroots concepts of environmental justice, not those coming from the academy, like ecological footprint for instance, or ecologically an equal exchange, but a kind of grassroots conflicts of which I give some examples here. Environmental racism or environmental justice itself comes from the US environmental justice movement in the early 80s, or popular epidemiology or sacrifice zones, all these here are examples and later I will give a much longer or a bit longer list of terms, which in the last 30 years or 35 years have come to be used by different people in different places in the world, in different languages, and they are born from these ecological distribution conflicts. They are not born in universities, although they are used by researchers. They have been born, for instance, climate justice, I think there is a kind of bottom-down climate justice discussion by several people, but also there is a kind of bottom-up, so to speak, climate justice discussion coming, for instance, from Delhi already 1991 with the distinction between luxury emissions and subsistence emissions by Anila Garval and Sunita Narayana, from an NGO in 1991, so we'll find many of these and go to this later. And even a third point that we'd like to make, but there won't be much time, but I'll leave it here as a discussion, is about these possible alliances between these global environmental justice movement, which is, in my view, very large and growing, and the small de-growth or de-croissants, I don't know where this exists in the UK, but yes, prosperity without growth, to quote Tim Jackson, isn't he? The prosperity without growth movement in Europe or the US, the steady-state economy, which is Herman Delhi's way of talking about it, is there an alliance? Could there be an alliance? This, I think, is quite important in practice, whether north and south or north and the entire planet can move into this kind of alliance. So I hope to have three or four minutes on this at the end. This I have already explained. So I'll start with this. This is a photograph taken in 1982, 1982, in Warren County, North Carolina, and these people coming from the civil rights movement in the US are lying on the road to prevent, and successfully, in this case, but successfully sociologically and politically, to prevent these tracks coming in with PCB, with some kind of toxic residue they thought, and they are demonstrating in this kind of civil rights movement coming from, well it came from Gandhi through Martin Luther King, and the question is that this was seen in retrospect as one of the first, or perhaps the first, movement in which the environmental justice movement in the US came into being. Of course, there have been other episodes for a very long time of other people complaining against toxic waste or against extractive industries like the Navajos against uranium mining in New Mexico, but there is in the US an environmental justice movement, and this is the starting moment for it. But more or less at the same time, in the mid-90s, when he has books like Patrick McCulley writing this book against dams around the globe, and then being then instrumental in this international rivers network, and Ricardo Carrere, who died recently, and Larry Loman, who is very much alive, they probably spouted in the South with a subtitle which I don't remember, but the book is about all the complaints or many complaints around the world against eucalyptus or melina or acacia plantations. With the slogan, three plantations are not forests, which is still put forward by this movement. Of course, it's not a movement. There are many movements, and sometimes they get together and they invent slogans like that one. Also, I have noticed that more or less also in the 90s, Leonardo Boff, who was the liberation theorist, I quote him because I read him at the time. I think he was writing a bit secondhand, actually, but he's become more well-known now because the Pope, in fact, the Pope doesn't quote him by name because he's too controversial. I understand the church because he was expelled, isn't it? Brazilians here would know the story. But the Pope, in the encyclical La Budato Si, he quotes Boff without quoting him. So I did an academic paper or a thesis. People would say the Pope is not very careful with his words, but apparently, well, I mean, the Holy Ghost also takes part in all this, and I'm not going to criticize the Pope. It's a very interesting encyclical. And he says several times, cry of the Earth, cry of the poor, straight from Leonardo Boff, who of course got this from the movements in Brazil and Latin America in general, as the Pope himself. The Pope, I think I mentioned this later, he has two paragraphs in the encyclical on the ecological debt, paragraphs 51 and 52, again copying, taking notes somebody took for him of many discussions in Latin America without quoting the author's who would be from Chile or from Argentina or from Ecuador. So there are these connections between the environmental justice movement in the U.S. and all these world movements of the 80s, like Chico Mendes or the 90s, like Tensa de Uiva, another Ogoni people in the Delta, all these are part of the global environmental justice movement in my view. And this is a picture of the alder some months ago. Now we have more cases, we have, we're increasing about 40, 50 every month. And we have some articles published and this is one that you can see because this is very easy to get in open access, you can anybody in the world can read. And we have a second article coming up and so we'll have many more articles. And other people are going also to use the alders for their own work problem. So what we do is to get this commodity approach. I sometimes joke that this is a vulgar materialist approach, so in which we take this commodities and we classify. So these points here, the colors refer to one of these 10 categories and only 10 categories not to have overlap or to have classificatory doubts, isn't it? Each conflict goes into one of these 10 categories to start with. And then of course we can have a conflict on biomass which simultaneously is a conflict on on agrotoxics or bioprospection or fisheries. So I explain this not because it's the best way of doing these things, but after a lot of thinking about it and already about three years ago, we decided to have this classification. And for instance, we discovered later that how I discovered that realized that there was something called ilmenite which is a raw material for titanium, isn't it? And you take sand from the Madagascar, for instance, other places. And so this goes into mineral ores and building materials extraction and among these in the commodity called titanium, isn't it? So everybody, every conflict is classified in a way that we know where we are. And then we can, for instance, say, do indigenous people take part in titanium conflicts more than another, I don't know what would be the interest of this, but we can order titanium conflicts more easily or titanium projects more easily stopped than bauxite projects, for instance. Well, I don't think it's a very interesting question. And even statistically, it doesn't make much sense. But one could do this kind of analysis because we have everything nicely classified. And we drew a lot on activist knowledge, as explained before. So we did not invent the idea of making an address or a map of environmental conflicts. But these other maps are smaller. So we have the largest one so far. And we are thinking of reaching perhaps 2,500 conflicts in which we need more from China than we have now, for instance, because there are many conflicts in China. But we don't have the context to get them and from Indonesia and other places so that we have more or less something that people, we can ask people, do you think some important one, relevant one, is missing and then we'll put it on. So that's the way. It's more like an incomplete inventory, more than a representative sample perhaps of a population that nobody knows what the population is. How many conflicts are there in the world about resource destruction or pollution, isn't it? It's an impossible question to answer. So I'll go to some. So we can say which type of conflicts, according to mining or this as explained. Also regarding waste, isn't it? And inside waste carbon dioxide, excessive amounts of carbon dioxide. So there are conflicts in the world about reds or the clean development mechanism, but also about ship breaking gas in Bangladesh or in India or waste, domestic waste in many cities in the world. But extraction, transport and waste, this is what the conflicts are about, either extraction or transport or waste. And many of them happen or are terrestrial conflicts. Some are in water, isn't it? Water in tunnel waters or in the same. And some could be also geoengineering conflicts in the future, for instance putting sulphates, particles in the atmosphere to stop solar radiation. This would provoke, it is already provoking, other types of conflicts. We can also do studies of the companies involved and network analysis. And we can also do some more statistics like this, which is not being interesting here, but here it's more interesting who are the social actors complaining. So this is something coming from social movement, from Tarro and from Tilly and so on. We ask in the database form which are the actors taking part in the conflict. The companies on the one side, government actors, but also the social civil society actors. So we could here have a figure with about, this was in April, last, this year, April, when we had 1,300 conflicts in the database. And well, it's nothing as happens usually. It's nothing very surprising. The local environmental justice organization appeared in many of them. And then in decreasing number, one thing that one could comment upon would be indigenous groups, which I think they appear, of course, for instance, when we checked, fortunately in Europe they don't appear very often. So it means that the database forms are well done because I mean, for instance, I am Catalan, but you're not technically indigenous, isn't it? And you all are indigenous of some way, or most of you would be, perhaps you're indigenous of two or three places simultaneously, but I mean, people who can appeal to convention 169 of ILO or a divasis in India. So if you all say they appear in these conflicts, much more often that they appear in the population, in Latin America, in other places. Women is a strange category because of course, women appear in all conflicts in some way. And what we try to do here is whether women leaders of these conflicts are in the database forms. And as you see here, we hit about 250. And so this would be good for somebody writing a doctoral thesis or a master's thesis on women leaders in Brazil, for instance, or in Latin America, in this kind of environmental conflicts, a lot of the work would already be done in the database forms. And then you can, of course, do it better or even complain against some mistakes in the forms and so on. So this is what religious groups are most interested for. So we get pastoral data in Brazil appearing very often. And we get some Buddhist groups in Southeast Asia appearing in the database forms. And these are forms of mobilization, where the people complain, write petitions. This is very much what social historians have been doing for a long time, isn't it? The Cayede, the Doleans before the French Revolution, without computers, historians have managed to explain all this. So it's not the doing statistics helps proves anything that we need to know perhaps. But so we have all this, but also we could classify in a different way those which are a strong kind of actions like street marches or even taking up arms, we say here, or sabotage or occupation of buildings, and those which are very mild. And then try to explain or to correlate whether when people behave more, is there anybody from Colombia here? Nobody from Colombia. I was explained this in Colombia a few weeks ago. And for the Latin Americans, I was trying to find the word to explain acting in a strong way. And they said, they are strong people doing things, illegal things. So one could try to correlate these kind of more strong kind of actions with success in environmental justice or the other around, or perhaps we cannot find any correlations or even if we find it, perhaps we don't know what they mean or how to explain it. But anyway, this has not been done before. Nobody has had such a large number of cases and tried to see what the forms of mobilization for environmental justice are. But you don't need 1,000 cases, you can find more or less the same thing with less cases. So here are some examples. One example I would like to mention would be the last point here. There is a very nice recent article by Mariana Valter and Lady Urquidi in GeoForum, just published one month or two months ago, in which they discovered, so to speak, that in Latin America there is from Miscel and from Tampo Grande in Peru and then Argentina, has spread a kind of new institution of the local consultation, not with indigenous people and the Convention 169, but outside it. And sometimes with the effect of stopping the project, sometimes not. But this is something new that has a reason just without anybody organizing it, or perhaps through knowledge, through video films that have circulated. So this is something that somebody called Mélène France, one of the people called the productivity of the conflicts. You have these conflicts and then suddenly, or slowly, some new institutions appear or some new practices appear. And this is something I think also interesting for a study, for a thesis, to look at the consequences of the conflicts, not just for the conflict itself, whether the project is stopped or not, whether people get killed or not, and so on, but whether from this conflict all the kind of practices or ideas or slogans arise. And this is a very clear case that has happened in Latin America after Tampo Grande in Peru and Miscel in Argentina, that people know about it and in many places there is this trend to have public consultations which the governments don't like at all. And they say the constitution does not provide for this, but they have some political effects. You can read this article in GeoForum. They have done this with only three or four countries, so it's not that they have thousands of cases. On the outcomes, one could have a sort of moderate outcomes like the strengthening of participation or compensation, but one could also have outcomes which are different, for instance, refusal of compensation sometime, or negative outcomes, we call this negative, like displacement or criminalization of activists or repression, corruption, these are things that appear in the database form, so we can codify this and then we can have these numbers. And one number that I think fits quite well with the statistics published by an NGO called Global Winners, which I think is in London, and Global Winners, they have published the names, even of about 500 people killed as environmentalists, but not of course from the IUCN, perhaps there are a few from the WWF. These are the environmental defenders from the global environmental justice movement. They are not going to the World Conservation Congress, especially if they are killed already, but I mean, these are not the sort of people, they are not IUCN, Nature Conservancy, which they do all things. These people are sort of being killed because they are on the front line of these fights about destructive resources or against local pollution. And in about 12% of the cases, deaths appear. In some cases, one death, in some cases, two or three or four, and we are now sorry that we did not collect the names at the beginning, and now we are trying to put more names about it, because if not, who is doing this? Nobody is doing this. I don't think nobody is counting this, except for Global Winners, which they are doing. Another thing that we do in this form is to ask for whether the people doing the three or four people or the local activists or local academics or young scholars, and then the form goes up and then we moderate the form at the end in Barcelona, three or four people, and we put it in moderate means to correct internal or to go back and ask for more information. So at the end, when we put this on the others, we can count how many of these cases have been considered to be successes in environmental justice or failures or not sure. As you see, not sure, it happens quite often. 34% of the cases by April this year, and many are characterized as failures in environmental justice, but 17% of the cases are marked in the form as environmental justice successes. You can check this and see whether you can check this. For instance, if you are from Italy, you can take the Italian cases and very easily throw in the others itself, you go there and you'll click a couple of times and you will see whether Italy, which has about 40 cases, I think, or 45 cases in the map, so it's a small sample, but reasonably convincing, whether this percentage is higher than in the world or lower. Well, I would guess it's lower than in the world in general, isn't it? Because in Europe, people don't get killed so often, but sometimes they get killed and happen to remifress listening, isn't it? In France, in Sylvain, it's called fighting against a complain against a dam, or also, what was his name, Vital Michelon, a long time ago in France, also in a place where they wanted to do a reaction, a plutonium reactor, isn't it? In Cremalville, so that's the only two cases of French environmental defender skill, which I remember, but I don't remember everything, of course, so there might be others, but much less in proportion than in Peru, for instance, or in Colombia or in Philippines, for instance. This is about killing people, but about successes, you could also check whether the rate of success in environmental justice is higher in Europe or in Latin America, according to our forms. And of course, we have done some research on the consistency of the forms, and this correlates very well with projects being stopped. When a project is stopped, then it's considered to be a success in environmental justice, but it's not always like this. The first case I showed in the US, in North Carolina, people trying to stop the trucks, they failed, isn't it? And nevertheless, this was the moment in which the environmental justice movement started, according to the US, people who belong to the environmental justice movement. So it's not like this, that stopping a project is a success and failing to stop is a failure, is worse, but it fits together normally. So now I stop with the others and I go to this vocabulary of the movement of environmental justice and I'll go quickly through it and leave you to read through it, perhaps more than speaking, because you probably read faster than I can speak English, but environmental justice I have already mentioned. Those who don't know this, if you go to Wikipedia or anywhere, you will find environmental justice. You will find this is a philosophical topic, isn't it, about justice with future generations or towards species, but this is in philosophy, toward environmental philosophy. In sociology, environmental sociology and history, environmental justice is this movement which started in the US in the early 80s and with this content. And words like environmental racism or popular epidemiology belong together with this movement in the US. Ecological debt does not belong with the US, belongs with climate debt, which will be now discussed in Paris in a risk of loss and damage, isn't it? They are changing what was called the ecological debt or environmentalism of the poor, which comes from India and from Latin America more or less simultaneously in the late 80s. Food sovereignty comes from via Campesina, biopilacy comes from Padmune from Canada, but was used very much by Vandana Chiva and became popular because of her books, I would say, but of course very old and it goes back to the 17th century or 18th century Europeans stealing genetic resources and the knowledge about the genetic resources. For instance, for Chinchona Oficinalis, for Queen Nin, Queenine. Climate justice is part of the ecological or the movement for climate justice claims that there is an ecological debt from north to south and uses this. Of course, there are other people who are not activists like Henry Hsu, for instance, who writes about this, but this is the kind of bottom-up movement and water justice is used by people. And then this I already mentioned against eucalyptus, land grabbing is very old also, the fact isn't it, but the name is not so old and of course it's a name which implies some complain about it. For instance, the World Bank likes to call this land acquisition, which is much more polite, isn't it? So people are not polite when they are angry perhaps. So scabs comes from Europe, but they put it together with these words which to organize or to just organize, organize from the Ogoni in Nigeria. This is that if you go to this you will find a lot of papers and books written in the last few years about living oil in the soil or living coal in the hole as they say or living gas under the grass, another bad poetry like this. And which of course you are Nicholas Stern, who lives in London I think, he says recently one cannot take all the gas, the oil and the coal with the speed that we are doing, isn't it? And he's quite right. We have to reduce the speed by half if we want to avoid increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. This has not been invented by Nicholas Stern, the idea of living oil in the soil comes from Nigeria and from Ecuador. And we know the people, Nimo Vase, Esperanza Martinit, we know the day, the place where they started to say this in the 1990s and it has spread quite a lot with, for local reasons, but of course linking the local reasons to climate change. Traits of natures in the constitutional corridor, corporate accountability was involved in this in Johannesburg without any success for an international convention of corporate accountability, isn't it, which is something a bit stronger than corporate social responsibility. This comes from, I think, from San Francisco, critical mass for cyclists, this we're talking now to be about Delhi or Pune or Bogota, for instance, Bogota now they give uniforms to recycles and a bit of money every month and they go to the meetings of climate change and say we are helping against climate change. This is something they use in the States. I read in translate called this Jardinage Irbel which is but guerrilla food gardening and this is the last in the names in the list. These both come from Latin America and Latin Americans will know about this but this is quite strong as a movement and this of course comes from the indigenous movement around the world which has been making progress and this comes from India and these crumbs in Chinese and translated from China and there is a book by Ana Laura Wainwright who is a professor in Oxford in the Human Geography of China and she and other people are working on this. This means what it says here is small, relative, small towns, villages with all the industry who are as vestors or heavy metals and this has become like a name used also by the authorities but coming from journalists or from people. So I'm sure that in for many countries we could find other words like this and we put here energy sovereignty is coming up, sacrifice zones come from the States, ecocide comes from the Vietnam War but here in London polyhigans who is a barrister or used to be a barrister wants to have an international convention against ecocide but this started people complaining at the time of the Vietnam War and Asian, orange or the call for an international tribunal and so on. This comes from Italy as it is used and so I'm almost finished and before finishing at the beginning I said I would like to say something about this connection between degrowth and environmental justice because I am very much involved in Barcelona with other people including professor Giorgio Scali who is here in the room and who is spending some months here and so on the degrowth or call it as you wish prosperity without growth or post-vaccine they say in Germany because they think that degrowth is too strong perhaps or decroissance so this comes from decroissance in French isn't it that's why it started in France and what this movement says that we should not grow at all or degrow a little bit even if we the economy would degrow we would still use too much especially for an industrial and we would still go to the commodity frontiers to extract new fresh supplies because energy is not recycled isn't it so this is why Giorgio Scali wrote a book called the entropy law and the economic process energy is not recycled therefore even at the growing economy if based on the fossil fuels buddhists still provoke this kind of conflicts at the and we could discuss about the materials so there are many connections for instance in Naomi Klein's book about climate change this word appears bloqueria that she learned in Canada in the US in Montana precisely this but it's very similar to the idea of living oil in the soil in Yasuni in Ecuador or in Honiland or in the Niger Delta in general is also very similar to the idea of resource caps in Europe isn't it so and now comes an advertisement because I wrote this article which is the article today this book is my favorite article I have written much too many articles perhaps I mean too many bad articles or some bad articles but this is is not bad at all I thought it's a good article because tries to make these connections so it's not that some people in the north go to the countryside and become degrowers isn't it and and with Le Droit à la paresse to and so on and they do a little bit of our ecology and to put it like this no it's a very political thing because if you are preaching the growth in the north you have to be at the same time in favor of this global environmental justice movement which perhaps exists because they fit together isn't it people are complaining and this in the south because of all in all this conflict in the south and in the north also quite often isn't it because there is also mining in the north and for instance in Greece now this is if you look at the film now me Klein's film it almost starts with things happening in Greece isn't it because of the crisis mining is coming back so this happens everywhere and the connections are everywhere so these are the conclusions I think that more or less I said everything I repeat this is not original the idea of these alas other people have tried started to this and what we have done is to we have done it we are doing it we are going to go on doing it with other people collaborators we perhaps there is 100 collaborators around the world in the alas and what we can prove is that there are all these complaints and they are not only about distribution but there is a lot about distribution of environmental goods and bats this is why I call these things these conflicts ecological distribution conflicts they are not economic they are not about salaries or prices they are about who pollutes home or who is suffering because of lack of water or because they lose the land so it's not economic in the market sense of the world or even in a market sense of the world it's not about the Australian sense of the world if there are economies here it's about the environment isn't it and this was missed by ecological distribution conflicts are something that political ecologists study not political economists although they can they can do it if they want to but they are no longer political economies they belong they become political ecologists isn't it political ecology studies ecological distribution conflicts and the power the political power that makes things go one way or the other way so I think this is the end yes so thank you very much thank you very much professor for sharing with us this very interesting work now we'll have Subhir Sina giving us like a few comments on the talk and then we will open the door to your questions thank you thanks Jean for extremely wide ranging in the talk and also I'm amazed at the scope and ambition of what you're trying to do so perhaps you know let me ask some provocative questions to you precisely about the scope and scale of what you're trying to do and you know maybe perhaps some clarification in terms of how some questions could emerge from two of your key terms which are global and justice and in addition to that I want to sort of you know ask you some methodological questions particularly about the categories and so but before that I thought since there's a lot of bad poetry that you know Jean quoted I could quote you one from the American lifestyle environmental movement which went along the lines of when it's yellow let's be mellow when it's brown flush it down which was about conserving water in your toilet which was a big slogan of the American environment in the 1980s and 1990s so one on the issue of global you know what we saw is that there are myriad you know episodes and events of conflict over resources that you're mapped out but why would you think of them as global in the sense that are there any connections between them is there a consciousness of being global because some of them are networked and obviously some of them are not so what does it do to your project to think of them of all of this as a global movement for environmental justice rather than movements for environmental justice which are distributed across the world so that that would be one secondly I wanted to ask you also about the fact that there is a network social movements element to what you suggested is there anything to be learned from the fact that you mentioned Patrick McCully's work and work of the 1990s one could think of environmental movement networks of that age that also broke down for example if you look at the international fish workers federation it ultimately broke down because the Canadians and the environmental fishing people thought of fish as primarily a resource that they could exploit for income whereas a lot of fishing populations in Latin America or particularly in South and Southeast Asia thought of it as a defense of a way of life as well and that basically brings me to the question of different ways of thinking about environment nature and ecology different valuations if you like and whether or not there is a kind of an incommensurability between some of the some of them so for example you have in the Indian anti-mining movement against bauxite the movement of tribal people in the east of India who make the claim for justice by saying that these mountains under which the bauxite lies are holy mountains for us in fact they call them the law-giving mountains the nyan givi mountains and there is no compensation of a monetary variety that they would be willing to accept for those mountains to be destroyed so clearly a kind of valuation which lies outside of any kind of an economic or a market framework and in contrast to that you know claims for for example compensation when you look at things like industrial catastrophes like the ones in opal and so on and so forth which ask for more material things money long-term healthcare support and and the like so that's that's that's a second question whether in the wide range of cases that you're talking about on the question of how value are you value the environment there are not embedded incommensurabilities which actually would come in the way of there being something like a global with that and that also I think has something to do with the way in which the word justice might be complicated because whereas we can see all of these movements emerging from a variety of different places Latin American history both of dictatorships and the state forms that emerge after that but also of colonization and the social movements that one sees over there seem to be quite different from the Indian cases given our hulkulamid histories the legacy of Gandhi and if you like of Maoism and so on so there are these other surrounding you know issues which have a strong effect on how justice is articulated and it seems to me that from that point of view how one talks of justice is coded in a range of not just cultural language and those kinds of things but effectively political experiences political histories what the political terrain looks like and things of that sort so that again I'd like to on the methodological thing I mean just looking at some of the categories you mentioned the question of women in the sense that obviously that's one category that cuts across a number of the other if not all of the other categories that you put up there but also even there could be overlaps between categories like farmer indigenous poor and things of that sort so what how do you separate out categories to minimize overlaps or does it even matter in terms of you know what you're looking to achieve and I'll just close with one last question which is about you know I mean a number of claims for justice based on an ecological you know logic these days also come from the far right so for example if you look at the Indian case I'll just give you two examples discourses regarding rivers the holiest of the rivers being the Kamba are extremely closely allied with the Indian far right you think of it as a kind of holy river and so on and so forth and the other one which again has a kind of lifestyle component to that is the military movement against the eating of beef and in fact what is quite interesting is that the same people who otherwise are attacking people to death for that have now latched on to California vegetarianism and even the vegan movement in California as a justification because you know it takes a lot of water and feed in order for people to have a kilogram of meat and things of that sort so wouldn't you for example include that in something like a and one could think of several other examples especially the american wilderness movement or the unabomber type of manifesto where all of these things also have some kind of a fundamentally anti-democratic and also you know end up targeting certain popular segments of the population as enemies of the ecological values that they're trying to articulate so I'll just leave it for that thanks you have quite a few questions already we want to briefly answer these and then we go to the audience there's some from the can you imagine from the beef not exactly beef but please I remember that for Catalonia we have about 10 cases in California which is 7 million people and of course you know it comes in well and we have the case of the movement against bullfighting bullfighting is not good beef eating is much worse reaching and but in this case what you are saying would be could be why is this an environmental movement to go with bullfighting Catalonia is very much as everything in Catalonia nowadays is very much part of the nationalist movement because in Spain they like bullfighting therefore in Catalonia wouldn't want bullfighting or could have a lot of discussion you can go to a database form of bullfighting in Catalonia and see what was put there didn't like for myself so I don't know exactly what it says but would be like this something which is not really environmentalist of the poor or even environmental justice in this kind of class way that I explain it is more what it's more part of what is called is in the continent or in trans and spain the animalist movement for animal movement which is an intervention to know without religious overtones but nationalist overtones which you might say but it does not treat conducive before that so there are like fringe movements around the bark of the movements which is about for india and in matatra race at least as far as I know it's not only the human right because there are lots of doubts we can many cases when in matatra race because one of our collaborators is writing a thesis on this and she but there are large sums now in the Himalayas everywhere from 16 to and of course there are many complaints of different sorts of complaints I don't think it's only the human right that and our mother was also sacred more or less and it was not the human right which complained so there is what we have caused with a lot of people languages of valuation for instance the case in Odisha with Vedanta and then we have G. So in that case the company is the same Vedanta is Vedanta where it's in Sambhya in the I think they also have Iron Mining and Vedanta could become Riyakuto anyway or whoever is going to buy Vedanta into an infernance of power so the non-site is a typical destructive company the language is information that people are using whereas we would be in the NGD is many people are involved and you have global NGOs, local NGOs but of course the language of sacredness and indigenous rights has warmed the case in fact for a time being but there is no problem for what we don't we admit that there are many languages of valuation could that be plot is not obvious in fact this would be a case of refusal of compensation and using another language to defend what the territory or nature or all together with subsystems like before so NEMG that's what is not the problem the other thing whether this movement exists sometimes they're saying well all your objections are very relevant but if one thinks about the family's movement or the labor movement say one hundred for instance many of you would know where a boat cart comes from or some of you would know what comes from the labor movement in this country isn't it? a gentleman called as a boycott who opened the shop one day it was a channel strike or something like this and he was boycotted I hope not violent but nothing like that so the word boycott continues in France and in Spain and Chile everywhere in the world and New York so it comes from the labor movement in this country the word picket comes from the picket line in the side the word draft in French is described and it's used in Portuguese it was the same they imported the word because they imported the things and they they could have invented or used a Portuguese name but so there was at one point a kind of labor movement more or less international with of course many regional variations in the names and in the substance of course and the avatars took so I see it in the same way like families because it's very different and for this kind of a term is that in this movement in the environment there is no political or central committee or central organization so boys they can do it best and dislikes it very much when they talk to him because now I mean we can't say how do you can say that there's a movement with regional organizations what it's like with some of the foreign and I like it also and so well we cannot prove anything from words but in fact the fact that these words spread around means I think something and I think more or less but for the fishermen you're totally right right remember the master chair and he and so on this I don't know why it failed in the war but there are times to bring it up because the conflict is there it's over fishing and people complain in many places but the soup is not so clear that it's always exists okay now open to you we will collect three questions and then we will sort of from what you've started already answering or asking about free valuation because it seems like we were asking about were conflict successful or not whether it was relatively self-evident who was right and who was wrong um but you know I can think of two examples but I'm sure there are many more where you can have two different environmental movements who have different aims and are fighting each other or or at least it's not that clear cut who are the good guys or who are the bad guys but in Germany at the moment the um you know there's a strong movement um to get through the fossil fuels this is a long-term lane so you have part of the movement trying to increase wind energy to replace fossil fuels you have another part of environmentalists um fighting against that part of the movement to prevent and put in windmills up in the areas that they consider environmentally beautiful that shouldn't be destroyed um and they're both using each other of being um for some commercial interests of various sorts very different because just something that comes to my mind I'm just doing to explain my point in Kenya and Tanzania you have the Maasai people um trying to do a way or two to reduce the the area of the reserves for wild animals because they want the water for their cows and I think we need the cows more urgently than tourists coming into countries need to see antelopes and elephants so you again you have a movement protecting wild animals some of which are you know endangered extinction fighting movements for the rights of indigenous people so who are the good guys who are the bad guys here it's it's just you know there are always so okay what's your take on this which are part of the soft power component of the US government so it was what we're going to do research in this area here so I was teaching pretty quickly kind of climate change what's broken was that there's a very strong current in the US government abusing violence and movements funding them through a major network of international NGOs to impose industrial development in countries I would like to hear a few more words about this and what your research shows for example yet now it's the US State Department which is still involved in organizing resistance against them which then the government says well this is because we want to to limit the energy for the industrialization plans of the country believe we have to shut down railroad and road plans to connect the south to the north we're also the US government has been accused of being involved in mobilizing the violence and movements but would you say a little about how to distinguish between who is that to be who in this in this pretty good economy of reminding some justice so I came across this movement I did right after you recently and one of the things I read about was this Canadian economist called Peter Laker who is the revision of the scenario in Canada and how it has progressed I wanted to ask about that with other commenters if there's any possibility for us to see something like that well the last question is to answer Peter Laker and he works with Team Jackson many people wouldn't know Team Jackson around here as they also have prosperity without drugs so you could read that book I think the second mission is coming and I totally agree with this but this is not what matters in this on this question is that for instance in Jackson who is a very good ecological economist he does not go into because you cannot do everything right on the book does not go into this kind of opposition to to extraction and to pollution which exists in the world from these grassroots he doesn't but he could he could he said take into account this and and then the the gross movement would be reinforced because of all this you don't want for instance the growth means to produce less carbon dioxide one way of producing less carbon dioxide is to listen to what people in the South are saying in some places about keeping oil in the soil which is not something invented in Washington or in London but invented in the United States in the 90s so that's what the good answer is on the the question of whether these environmentalist movements are financed by the CIA or the equivalent whether I get seen enough in my life to believe almost everything about the Americans of power to put it or explain what they do but I think that they don't know what that is and it doesn't matter whether they are more of a red wing or a red wing for instance at one point the secretary of NATO who was from Denmark about two years ago came to London and in Chattanoogao said Putin is financing all the anti-trafficking movement in Europe. He said this isn't a look at the newspaper. It can be London. What's his name? A Danish name. Anascovastos. And at the same time people like so Putin understand Evo Morales or Correa or Evo Morales particularly or García Iñera is Vice President especially. They said it's the US who is financing the environmental movements so it's it's not like this at all it's movements that appear of people complaining against for instance the one study that people in this case in Bolivia that we had in the map so you can go and see the database form and this information which are the HGRs which were active of the indigenous groups and so on. So this idea that environmentalism is a luxury of the rich and that that the poor people are not environmentally rich is something which I think that is sample proof to show it's not strong. And so the Latin American government did say this what they say is that the Latin American left of the communist party was the goal for instance when they opposed these places where they were promoting industry against rural people and there are people complaining. It was not because the rural people were being financed by the US government to prevent industrialization of income. Although this thing sometimes so you hope to take it so I disagree with your well I don't know if you've seen yourself but I mean it's true that in Bolivia or in West Bengal or from the from other political corners some people tend to see that this environment of the poor is being financed by I don't know the article of Washington or Moscow or Beijing and it's not true it's not like this. So on the windmills I only answer the windmills because the windmills is true that many people who are environmentalists are in favor of the windmills I am also in favor of windmills but if you go to Oaxaca in Mexico or to some places in Oaxaca there is a company in India called Susan Susan big company called they are doing lots of windmills so the local people complain not because they are complaining because they are against the companies taking the land they accept that the wind does not belong to them which in itself is quite not who is the owner of the wind. Nerola has a point about this saying I did not arrange that wind don't sell to yourself Nerola we look for Nerola I did not arrange that but they accept that the wind is not property but the land they use the land for pasture or for agriculture the cases that we I know of a windmills complex in the south are about this the cases in Tuscany and so on about the landscape and then you have clearly this encounter between people worried about climate change and the energy and people more worried about the landscape. But in the south what people also worry they like the landscape but it's often about the land so but it's not that in general there is a conflict between but I think there is a conflict very often between conservationism and the environment of the world and in fact they would like to be this often this conflict and sometimes as I said in the case of mangroves one can find that it is a conflict but sometimes you are right there is a conflict between conservation and environmentalism or energy we know of our energy and worry about life. Yes I'm already gone from the UCL actually the part of the development unit and we do a lot of work supporting and documenting the environmentalism of the poor but I think I'd like your thoughts because I see a big contradiction between that and the kind of work we do and the kind of thinking around the growth if we are as academics inviting even for a two minutes presentation on the other side of the board we fly there and we have an environment and we have a personal and I say in my department at least a footprint that is thousands times bigger than one of the people we work with to make them more resilient to adapt them to climate change to reduce their own emissions and and thus as long as there is a budget we fly everywhere with it so I found these struggles and I was so happy to see that linkages between the growth and environmentalism of the poor but we haven't find solutions we are on that side of supporting the poor and under the same time justifying our kind of a crazy lifestyle. So what are your thoughts on that? Well I could explain quite a bit my actions but I mean yeah. Professor I really appreciate your work on making this atlas and also make this work but my question is about one key concern that was raised by the first question about who are the good or the bad guys but in the in the center of this discussion is the concept of justice and as you approach the issue of environmental justice well who is saying what is justice? Justice for one, justice for the bad guys, justice for the good guys and then I came on the on the issue of the state. The state is actually empty or was not tackled by in your presentation. These initiatives, these fights, these struggles are they against the state, are they against the companies and how and how then and who is the body who can say what is justice, what is right, what is not right in terms to judge these environmental initiatives. Actually this is pretty much my question as well as to say there is no central organization or agency then how are certain actors kept accountable for injustice in the country? So who sets the rules of what is justice and what is injustice and who is accountable and for what? Yeah well this could be very difficult questions but I think they are easy in a way because the environmental justice movement as it developed in the US and then became in my view became rather co-opted by the state or they themselves let themselves be co-opted by the state in the sense for instance Clinton gave an executive order recognizing the environmental movement and so on. So in the states these companies got not very strong but the movement started as a movement against environmental injustice and environmental racism as the protagonist saw it isn't it they said this there are environmental injustices because we are being polluted because not only because we are poor because but because we are black or Hispanic in greater proportion than in our area than elsewhere and so on and I think this same approach can be applied in many other places and in fact if you go to Mozambique there is a group which belongs to friends of the earth calling themselves justice the justicia ambiental in portuguese if you go to brazil they also use very often justicia ambiental and there is a movement in Carajás where the the iron ore goes for export no from exploited by valley company mostly what there was this is in Carajás it's not in Minas Gerais where there was this spill a few days ago a few weeks ago and they call themselves this movement because of the railway they call themselves justice in the railway justicia and hostility so the word justice itself appears very often in this kind of thing so who is right or who is wrong well this depends on a view that belong to a company like Rio Tinto you're seeing that these things can be solved probably by better corporate social responsibility actions or by the police perhaps or that which is the work of agitators there must be many different views about this the question that we are trying to do with other many other people around the world belonging to environmental movements of the poor is to make these conflicts visible and when you see these conflicts you could spend your whole life you know one single conflict trying to apportion right and wrong isn't it because they are very complex each of them but most of them but the fact is that the world and this goes to the back to the windmills why there are so many windmills because of the metabolism of the economy we could we we're getting too much fossil fuels therefore we're going to do something else the metabolism increases we go to the commodity frontiers or we export the waste and therefore there are conflicts about the use of the environment i'd never use good buys good guys and bad guys isn't it because it's not like this but there are people who are on the receiving end in general and people who profit from the from the use of the environment as a disposal place or a place to take the resources this is what it is for instance it's very clear with carbon dioxide there are people who like myself for instance who are producing far too much carbon dioxide compared to what would be the world's average tolerable to avoid further increases in the temperature and other people who if everybody lives like in india or Bangladesh the average i mean there would be no climate change problems isn't it it's like this if everybody would have the emissions of the average india i am not saying the rich india if everybody in the world seven billion people would have these emissions we would just start worrying about climate change but of course so that's what i am using the word justice in this kind of distributive sense regarding ecological distribution conflicts then there are issues of participation and recognition which have been discussed quite often but i don't know whether i am answering or repeating myself that i mean this is how we think and also another point that haven't made but perhaps should be made is that we are not into the issue of solving conflicts i mean partly because how do you solve 1600 conflicts around the world i have no idea how but also i think the questions are how to solve conflicts we just have to study the conflicts to study whether what the outcomes are and where these conflicts are really helping to have a less unsustainable economy so this is the what this conflict sometimes when you stop Vedanta in the EMG here you are stopping the mining of bauxite in the production of aluminum well i have nothing against production of aluminum in principle but perhaps there is too much aluminum being produced because it's very intensive in electricity the aluminum but of course you cannot go from one case to this but the historical logic so to speak of these movements locally as this was a question they are very local but they have networks sometimes or one can identify patterns and the logic they have is that they are helping to have a less unsustainable economy this is what i think can be said about them so solving them dependant sometimes they are solved by by killing people this is the truth isn't it or by exiling people sometimes they are peacefully solved but this is not the issue they should solve problems and not conflicts there are the questions you can get another round of so last week i i pulled my coaching to parents for the climate marches only two couple of hours later find out that they've been banned by the french government so this is very much like a current issue and one i would like to need to come in on both of these as a scholar could this be a symptom of other social conflicts frowning out and this is a fight in the struggle for climate justice and could this symptom be found elsewhere and perhaps even the worst instances being as results of these underlying distribution of conflicts leading to for instance conflicts on water conflicts arising from mass migration due to environmental degradation what is the threat to the movement of other yeah on this question of the corroboration well i mean depending what we are studying is that in the map is conflicts whether and people make allegations in fact one of the when we had this list of groups taking part in the conflicts which you asked we have farmers and indigenous people religious groups sometimes several are acting in the same conflict sometimes also the government not always for instance one could compare i am writing an article about this mining conflicts in Peru compared to Chile and i sought the name that in Chile the government the members of parliament and the kind of called the ombudsman and so on perhaps would take place more in Chile than in Peru because i know both countries well i think i am wrong in fact when one looks at the cases this is not but one could there are many participants isn't it and and they make allegations the people who complain say for instance they say that it's playing glifosate in soy plantations is bad for the people and it's bad for it's good for the soybeans and bad for everything else and including people so well there is a big debate about this the world organization for health recently said that glifosate perhaps was bad for people and produced cancer there is a big debate so we cannot go into the scientific debate of course if somebody would say that glifosate produces i don't know produces produce produce something totally some fantastic lie that they would say who would censor it or would go back to the people who wrote it and ask for clarification but if the allegation is more or less plausible and clearly feeds into the conflict we we leave it there we have had some complaints by companies sometimes including cement companies for instance in which there are a lot of complaints in many reasons of all because they are burning domestic waste sometimes with carbon credits even and the people who don't like the cement factories because they pollute before now they know that they are doing this that they tend to complain and there is a big debate so we go to some scientific journal if we can find it to see whether the allegations are are totally unfounded so one one criteria when we it's not myself we are a group of people as i tried to write the people we were writing for for the financial times perhaps but of course with the little bias against the companies but the the level of information or for Le Mans diplomatic perhaps for some a good newspaper more than this we cannot do in this form we cannot do a monograph for each case and there is a space for complaints and some people complain on both sides they complain and the other question was the March in Paris yeah no i mean not going to answer your question although it's a very good question how what they are mispronouncing here links with with with wars in the in the Middle East and and wars on the streets in in europe or so it's it's not because i mean i would like to talk to you about this but but i don't know more than you know about this i don't know i don't think that there is any reason to have wars on water because there is lots of water drains all the time isn't it in the world in general you can have water deceleration at not have such a high energy cost nowadays or perhaps with solar energy but people will fight each other for many reasons sometimes disguised as environmental reasons or sometimes disguised as other reasons but this is more than we can say in one talk and i don't have anything very profound to say about about this what i would do in paris which i also i am asking myself should i go to paris i was meant to be in paris and well i don't know i mean we'll see what happens it's not a joke isn't it because bombs are exploding around the place so so but i think it's true that is a distraction for other things which some people would say is more important what will happen with the climate than other things which are now being at least in the in the medium run but i don't know what to say perhaps you can come back and say something of what you said because you cannot ask somebody to solve all the problems in just one and a half even assuming that they were the book giving an encyclical isn't it he takes one topic at the time the last encyclical is about the the environment the last one about peace was i think 30 or 40 years ago and so so sorry because we kept him disappointing you right you know where you are i would think whether you go to paris or not carefully isn't it okay there are the questions we never find out wrong there to know we get uh regarding the data is there only uh the numbers of cases are those represents a country or how would they because i just uh check it and i found that Indonesia has 30 cases which i believe way more than that uh how do you like put these cases based on only famous cases that are being uh covered by the media and which most people know about or how is the data being generated here and represented yes we have been working on this since 2012 okay and little by little we have been and we it depends on whom we have on the other sites helping to fill in the cases for example you go to latin america colombia has more cases in the map than brazil and mexico and this is totally wrong in the sense that there are many more environmental conflicts in brazil which has uh what three three almost four times the population of colombia and the north of brazil is is a lot of conflicts on land or mexico isn't it which has three times the population of colombia the reason is that there is a group in colombia and somebody called mario perez this is the reason mario perez who started in barcelona with me and is a very hardworking person has managed to have a group of course in colombia there are now i think 110 cases how many there are in truth in colombia nobody knows but perhaps there are 500 or 400 environmental conflict cases which are worst reporting i don't think they are all emblematic or spectacular but if you ask the people little by little they would find but i think we are pleased with having 100 for indonesia is like china is a case where i know wali the environmental group friends of the earth and we are trying to get cases from indonesia and we have no minds to have but now this project is more more money for the next two years so we are going to get cases in indonesia if the local activists are willing to help and this we find happens always perhaps you yourself i don't know but it happens because people think it's a good idea i don't know what you think to make these cases visible but there is a country opinion sometimes saying you make it visible but also what with the police and the army thing but we don't use confidential everything that is in the forms is already known is already known and some people use pseudonyms instead of the real names but has been published the local newspaper and in the case of indonesia there is also a question of the local language which for you is no problem isn't it but if you are from barcelona it's so we have to get our act together and but there is no well perhaps you have some ideas there is no way of saying this map represents statistically all the relevant conflicts in the world we're going to work now from people who say like a review of an article a few weeks ago the reviewer said you are saying you you are missing a lot of mining conflicts in india so we wrote back saying please give us a list of 20 of the 20 most important ones that you think are missing so he did not reply yet is the way i don't know whether anybody has done this kind of map before in fact nobody but there must be other examples of this in many other fields how do you build up a kind of incomplete inventory out of which you can draw some conclusions but not other conclusions and all this is going to go through a peer review at the end if we publish this so we don't know what will happen there's something in the last one here i just have a quick question about how you choose which cases to actually include you talk about the importance of data but um is there a criteria because i myself i've worked on the grained database for land grabs on the most recent one that's yet to be published we have a new criteria where we decided okay we're looking at land grabs that are above a thousand hectares or that's how we've decided arbitrarily in some cases what a big land grab cases goes so i'm wondering i mean your your e-j out this was indispensable to the market their ad is really good but how do you decide which cases should go in which well i think we cannot answer in general i think we would have to think in a kind of uh sort of in Indonesia well Indonesia is very large many people many many many conflicts but if you take little by little a province that you know for instance is what happens with me with some places in the world with Peru or Chile or or Catalonia or even for instance we have a display in bed for the us this was done by Paul Mohai who comes from the environmental justice movement in michigan and they wrote to 200 people who had been involved in the environmental justice movement so it's a bit against white so to speak just to start with but uh and they said what do you think are the most important relevant emblematic cases in the us that we are going to fill in with a group of people students and some activists and we can do 60 or 80 that's what they said so they selected and people said different and these i think they have published these in environmental research letters an article recently and they explain this method we have not used the same method everywhere in Italy this same method was used to ask the committees they eliminated the activists and it's not so large a country so i think it's pretty complete what they did pretty complete in the sense of the conflicts which are there as people who the experts mean the activists or perhaps uh sociologists or good things they are the most important for Italy but perhaps some are missing for China or Indonesia we are very far from this so that's how we are doing it we're doing it little by little depending on the on the help we get and the money we get to do the moderation and filling in the empty spaces there is a big empty spaces from Pakistan to Morocco which we're going to fill in we know how to fill it in now with conflicts because there are many conflicts there are many conflicts from India about 300 which is little because India is many more people and some i'm very few from Pakistan so somebody wants to own a Pakistan must be paying for these others isn't it because they want to shop so this how we are doing it so this criteria that you are saying means that you know already the population isn't it you know all the cases of land grabbing in the world or what you call land grabbing which in itself is not so clear and you select those with the 1000 hectares well you don't know all the cases of land grabbing nobody knows anything so it's no it's not like sampling the population to see whether you're going to vote labor or conservative you don't you don't know the population okay we can then like draw this session to what knows thank you very much for participating for a very very important question let me invite you to our last session for this term which is next Tuesday we will have professor Andrea Cornwall from Sussex University on women's empowerment technology development and global justice for those of you who want to say that we'll be in our small reception in the subcommon room on the first floor thank you like