 Please welcome our speaker, Jean-Louis Horvillier, and let me briefly introduce him and he received his bachelor's degree with focus of soil science and horticulture from Texas State University, a wine maker certification from Texas State University as well, and he will be graduating from Rockhurst University in 2023, where he's studying his MBA with a concentration on management from Hullsburg School of Business. He has been working in the wine industry since 2016, and also with TheraVox Winery since the spring of 2019, where he will be sharing his projects from this winery. He's both a wine maker and vineyard manager for TheraVox and will further advance his wine education in pursuing the WSET, work with owner of TheraVox Jerry Esterhold to oversee and conduct this specific share farmer's renters project. Please welcome Jean-Louis. Thank you. Hello, can y'all hear me okay? Okay, so I'm Jean, nice to meet you guys, having a good Friday so far? Great, great. So like you said, what we did was we investigated the biodynamic production of American horticulture grapes. So we'll just jump right in. So this is TheraVox. This is the winery and vineyard that I work at. Right over here in this area, this is what I like to call the genesis plot. So the winery and vineyard was founded in 1996 by owner and proprietor Jerry Esterhold. So this is kind of where it all started. But even before that, it started back with Thomas Walney Munson and his work at Phylloxra. Raise your hand if you know what Phylloxra is. Okay, yes. So essentially Phylloxra was this disease that hit the, it was a plight that hit Europe, I think primarily French vineyards. And he found out when he take American rootstock and graft to European vines, you get this immunity to the disease. Lucky for us, he was this awesome grape breeder. I think he bred over, I'm free to number over 200 different American varietals. So that's kind of where it all starts. Of course, with other help with Charles Valentine, Riley and Friedrich Munch and George Husman. It's kind of like the founding father, so to speak, of where we've kind of taken off and ran with. So I like to say that if prohibition did not happen, there would be a chance that, it's arguable that these graves could be as popular or as commercially known as your mall bags, your pinots, your Cabernets. So what we do is just specialize completely on these American heritage graves. So it's kind of like the backgrounds. I can do a whole presentation on just what we do alone. But so in general, this area right here was planted in 96 and you can kind of see these little outlines. This is all in Norton. So we primarily plant Norton in that section. And then also in this section right here, and this entire section right there is Watumka. So Watumka and Norton are the two graves that we primarily focused on for this investigation. And go ahead and jump right in. So the investigation, the idea was we want to lower input of sprays, lower input in the environmental impacts, tractors, emissions and stuff like that. And as well as celebrate the diversity and generate this diversity with positive outcomes. So the focus was how do we limit our input within, at the same time, still maintain this positive quality to the grave. So as I said before, Norton's brief little characteristics, it makes us really nice and inky wine. Later I'll show you the different styles of wine that we make, but it's very productive in terms of foliage. Medium firm clusters, really dark berries. It does require cane pruning. So as opposed to spur pruning. So it's a little bit more tedious during this time of the season. But once we get to the point where we're starting to focus on the other grapes, oh, I didn't say this. We have about 60 different varietals of these grapes. So logistically there's a lot to do. So it's just this dialogue with the grapes this week. For the wine characteristics, you get this medium acidity somewhere in the world of sort of like a Merlot, like Italian reds, if you can kind of picture that. It does undergo malactic fermentation. So we do want that aspect to the wine. Make a red rosé, a port and a petnat. And the potential, the aging potential is really nice. I found that aging in barrel or aging in bottle or just however long it takes. Wine's a living thing, right? So it's always changing. But it's a very nice, pretty wine. Watumka, it's, so the unique thing about Watumka besides all of those characteristics, it is this very floppy foliage. So it wants to go down it, it air roots. So on the cordon, you'll actually see some roots actually establishing. But once you walk into the vineyard on harvest day, you get this huge whiff of elderberry flowers. It's just like citrus and tropical notes. It's just like this awesome grape. One of the downfalls is the grapes. If I were to look at them the wrong way or the wrong when hits on harvest day, they just shatter, they completely come apart. So whenever we're picking, we put our bins underneath and try to collect all the fallen ones. But once it's ready to be picked, it has to be picked. Otherwise, the one will force them to fall. Besides that, it does have a really nice, really it's probably by volume, our most popular white wine that we have. So the two volumes, the two highest and probably our most popular, that's why we chose these two grapes specifically. And so the picture that I showed you before, the pretty picture of the vineyard, this is the first half. So this was planted in 96 and these were planted in 2000s. So we wanted to focus on the west block and we took two rows of Watumka and two rows of Norton. And we decided to put chooses two rows specifically because if we're going to quit spraying, then we have to sort of create like a buffer zone with the surrounding rows. So that way, if we want to spray this section of Watumka, we can judge by how far the tractor, the sprayer sprays. And based on how far it gets to our best ability, we try to cut the spraying off completely. So that was the intention of the two areas. And you can kind of, it's hard to compare how those two rows perform compared to the other lots because of the micro climates and other reasons. But yeah, we'll just continue. So very first thing we did after we agreed to pursue this biodynamic endeavor, we wanted to see the baseline of what the soil is like. So background, the soil is low soil, has a healthy range overall. So the range of hydrogen compared to the hydroxyl ions there is a percentage, a good percentage that we can uptake the nutrients. So that was nice. In general, the soil is very nice. Like most places, I would guess phosphorus is pretty low. Phosphorus is hard to maintain if I'm not mistaken. That's the job of microals of fungi that can help produce phosphorus. Otherwise, you're fertilizing and taking phosphate and actually applying that problem with that is phosphorus is not as mobile. But it's certainly something we wanted to keep our eye on. And in general, magnesium, calcium, potassium and also nitrogen was relatively high. So we figured that this is about what the range of how much we needed to apply in the vineyard below. So like I said before, we started with the soil test and we did that through University of Missouri. So we started with the compost pile. And so what I did was I went to our neighbors to have horses. I collected a bunch of horse manure, put it in the back of our gator and added a bunch of green trimmings and some brown stuff and wanted to create this like healthy compost to apply back into the vineyard to kind of compensate a little bit for those lacking nutrients that we may or may not have. And the next step was we seeded Kentucky bluegrass, snow pea, red and white clover and put that in between the rows. So not underneath the trellis itself, but in between the rows where the tractor would be going through. And we did it with that little machine right there. We put the seeds mixed up in a bin and we just went ahead and did that and we added our compost. So the camping management, something that we noticed coming through was we did pick up powdery mildew as you can see right here. So it's not in the best condition comparable to everything else, but it's something that you would expect with cutting off spring completely. So I like to think of it as a sort of like organic shock, right? So these are kind of the pictures that we saw. The other thing too, with the interceding of the different types of ground coverage, notice with the weeding, it became very laborious to maintain trimming up the area where all the weeds grow. So about two or three times that season, we took a weed wacker and just try to eliminate the best possible. So that is one thing that we notice as well as the canopy being significantly denser. So like I was saying before, this is kind of just some numbers of how long it took for the biodynamic areas, the two rows per bridle. I like to show this just to show kind of like how much time goes in between it. And then for the Wautumka about the same, obviously with the cane pruning, it takes a little bit more time than the spur pruning. Anybody here familiar with cane pruning? So essentially at the beginning of, so you have your trunk and then you have your two cordons and with spur pruning on the trunk or on the cordon, these spurs will produce about ideally fist apart. And the idea is to establish a zone where the new growth can grow. So you have your grapes growing in that fruit zone. So instead of doing that cane pruning, we take the first two bull canes at the beginning of the cordon, we lop off everything else and we just recreate a new cordon every single year. So it could be a little bit time consuming. It takes a little bit more zip ties and we have to do it when it's about this weather. So we're currently cane pruning and spur pruning right now in the season. But bud thinning took a little bit less time and most of this labor was done between one to two people at any given time. So as harvest was coming, usually take bricks, pH and titrable acidity. So bricks is just the unit of sugar, how we measure how sweet the grape is and in turn what the alcohol percentage will be. pH helps us maintain sulfides and how to keep everything clean in the cellar as well as plays a part with acid. I didn't put the titrable acidity here because I typically won't, I'll test it every now and again, like as we get closer, just to have an idea of how acidic the grapes are. But for these purposes, I did not mention it. But yeah, let's just look at, so right here on August 11th, Watamka is typically harvested in September. So this is kind of getting up to that point. So as we're approaching or as we're in variation, changing color and establishing more sugar and more acid into the grapes, you can kind of see comparatively how it's gone down and how it's increased rather. And then harvesting Norton in August is pretty much an impossibility. It's just not even, it's still green at that point. So you can kind of see the progression. The numbers. So one of the notes that I wrote down was the non-bododynamic Norton had this acidity watermelon herbaceous tart, which would make sense because it still hasn't completed its variation. And it's hard to answer this question. Subjective, wine can be so subjective as well as the grapes because if I think something's great and you don't think it's great, where do we kind of meet? But in general, these were the tasting nuts that we came up with the sampling for the grapes. One thing all, as a prelude, Watumka was very similar. So keep that in mind. So harvest, I hope these pictures can be bigger. So in general, the grapes for Norton were kind of raisinated, a little desiccated, a little bit of PM, but the fruit quality was amazing. Tasted really, really nice. It took a little bit of time to sort out just because the weeds were so heavy and the canopy was so lush. Mind you, this is back in 2020. So this is still, we're trying to figure out what this experiment would be like. And I won't spend too much time on this section, but in general, after harvest, we ended up taking more, I guess like halfway through this point in time. We took note of where the soil was at and what the situation was. And back again in January of 2021. So sorry, the new year preparing for next year's harvest. So we did have a good level of pH where we could retain our nutrients, our health effects, phosphorus and potassium, potassium as well. So one of the things I found unique with potassium is we had good levels of potassium, but that translocation from soil, the root uptake into the actual plant. It just wasn't there. It wasn't, there wasn't much of that going on. So the idea was, well, how do we maintain that potassium to get into the plant and also get into the fruits? So that's something like these buffer things that help aid that. That's one of the things that we discovered with this. Phosphorus, again, relatively low. And it did decrease as we went along. Organic matter, we don't want the organic matter to be incredibly high. We like the level that it's at. And then the cation exchange. So the ability to maintain and hold the nutrients. So we saw that number and we were pretty pleased with that number. So we've now harvested the grapes. All the fruit is in, it's getting weighed and thrown into the crush or the stemmer. So once it's been crushed and processed, we took these original numbers. So for the pH, for the biodynamic, that's a really good number. We know that the pH is gonna increase when it spends its time in the cellar. The Brooks is also pretty nice, 23.5. So it's gonna have an ample level of alcohol. So ageability, complexity. So that was one of the nice things. The TA was a little bit high. We were hoping for somewhere in the nine range. So essentially what we wanted to do, but for the sake of the experiment, we did not add any tartaric acid. But the alcohol percentage was at a good range, 12.7%. Roughly you wanted to do 0.605 to get to what you expect the alcohol to be, but there are indissolvable sugars that are there. Biodynamic Watamka was very low in terms of, oh, I got those numbers, so it's true. The Brooks was 16 and the pH was 3.09. Now, the pH of 3.09 is relatively low, but it's not concerning because I know it's gonna rise. But the pH of 16 is low. That's really low, you know? So I think the TTB recognizes wine at 7% alcohol. So if it goes below 7%, is it not wine anymore? So yeah, one of those deals. So the way I made the red, I wanted to make it as, so going back to the original picture of the vineyard, we have the Norton East Block that was planted in 96, the Center Block 2000, and the area that we conducted the experiment was on the West Block. So in general, the East Block, we would take that fruit, process it down and separate that portion to make rosé. So we make a saunier and a sunny slope. And whatever's left from that portion, we, which is like this thicker musk that doesn't have a ton of juice in it, but it does macerate nicely and gets this inkier color. We couldn't do that with this side of the experiment. So lot two and lot three, so the Center Block and the West Block, we did an open bin fermentation post crush and press. What's that? And we did about two or three punchdowns a day to break up that cap and make sure we have a pretty line. And once we pressed it, we went ahead and added mallactic bacteria to it, or lactic bacteria to it. And we went ahead with the mallactic fermentation. After that, we typically add about 50 to 70 parts per million of SO2, just as a baseline. And we're pretty much maintaining 25 to 35 parts of SO2, which is relatively low. After that, we polish it with a K-100 filter membrane. And then we sterile filter at 0.45 microns and then off to the balling. Pretty much the same thing with the biodynamic crush. And with the white wine, this year a little bit of different direction with our white wine protocol. So essentially the same thing, crush, and then we went ahead and pressed. And that juice that we've maintained, we went ahead and cold-celled it for about 24 hours, added bentonite to get the clarity nicely. And then the non-biodynamic wine, we split it up into two lots. One was gonna be fermented on the skins to create the sort of orange wine, but that was destined to be a white port, or the other section was used as a control. And then comparatively the other lot, the biodynamic lot, same thing as I mentioned before, minus the port. So my wine consultant, his name is Clark Smith. He's a brilliant guy. He wrote the book on post-water and wine making. Sure, I have a lot more accolades to mention, but we'll just leave it at that. I sent him a bunch of samples that would confuse me, confuse him, so there is no way of us knowing what he actually received. And once I put the deciphering paper together, this is what we found. So remember I talked about a little bit of the powdery mildew, some of the faults in the grapes that come with the non-spring. That being a concern, we wanna see what it would be like with wine. And he actually gave the biodynamic, the double gold grading versus the other ones, which I found unique because that's kind of what you would hope to expect. And because we conducted this experiment within a year, it's impossible to kind of show how much progression the soil or the plants or any other factors within that time a lot. If we wanted to do this completely scientifically, I think we would need more years to kind of go through that. But this was a very surprising discovery. As I mentioned before, not a ton of difference between these two. Now mind you, when we take the Watomka and we approach bottling date, we like to have a little bit of residual sweetness. So this was just the driest version of it. And the reason why we like residual sweetness with it is because it gives so much more vibrancy and complexity and just a tiny bit of sugar just gives us this kind of reminiscence of what's like to walk out to the vineyard when you get the grapes at harvest. But I will say unbiasedly that the biodynamics seem to be a hairline better. I think the only difference between the similarity in taste was the alcohol percentage. I want to say the biodynamic was somewhere in the range of 8.6 alcohol where the Watomka control is like below that. I want to say by almost a point, I think it was 7% alcohol. So the takeaways. Less labor, that's nice. We like to work less. Less inputs, which is also nice. The quality of fruit. Looking back from 2020's harvest to 2021 and this past harvest of 2022, there has been a slight decline in the yields. However, what we've seen from 2021 and 2022, the quality is getting better. The wine is getting better. So there's that. And then like I mentioned before, you do have the higher percentage of powdery mildew or anthracnose or black rod, but essentially you're still getting that cleaner fruit. The other thing was the dense canopy in the weeds. That's something that's kind of hard to work around. Now, the other thing I'd like to mention is for this to be truly a biodynamic wine. Now, we couldn't add commercial yeast. We couldn't temperature control. We'd have to get demeter certified. So that's partly why. Jerry Isterhold, if I can go back. It's partly why we called it ethno botanical, kind of creating our own kind of brand with us sort of. So that's one thing that came out of it was just like this. There is a responsibility that we want to give, but I think one of the biggest epiphanies that we had post experiment was going back to what Thomas Wollney months and said, so besides being a great breeder and saving the French vineyards from Flaxhura, he was also a philosopher. And he talked a lot about dynamic agriculture. I think there are a lot of similarities with his philosophy and what biodynamic is aiming to do. So I was speaking to Jerry and wanted to get his thoughts on this kind of thing. Because we give a presentation and it's very lengthy and there's different categories that we want to be able to tackle. And this is something that we've been recently fixing up the past few months. And talking about it, it's just dynamic agriculture, it's not a fixed thing. It's not static, it's open-ended, it's a dialogue with the grapes. As I walk into the vineyard and I'm noticing things, like in harvest, for example, I can test the bricks, I can test the pH, I can test the titrable acidity. But when I taste the grapes, you get feelings, what are your thoughts and what does it taste like? And what kind of mouthfeel am I getting? Try to think about everything. The numbers could be right, but if it doesn't taste quite right, what I would imagine the wine to be like, then I might wait a day or I might harvest sooner. So I like these two quotes that Jerry had found kind of backpacking of what I said earlier. It's non-transactional, it's a dialogue with the grapes and it's very systemic. So it's a long-term fit between genetics, environment and culture. Culture mainly because we get, at the winery when we get visits, whether someone's from Napa or from Kansas City proper or someone from Texas or even Minnesota. One of the things that we keep getting asked is, you know, do you spray pesticides? Do you spray roundup? And as much as we don't wanna spray those things when it comes down to it, if we have Japanese beetles coming in and they're gonna wipe out our entire canopy, do you let them do what they have to do or do you act and try to, you know, sustain, you know? We all have to eat too, right? So there's this systematic approach of how we wanna create it. And because there are no end points with this, it's something that's gonna continually go on about the drive, so to speak, not the destination, but as we say, we're gonna continue to write the book on this. So as I was mentioning earlier, of Norton, the red grape, we make three different styles of red. In 2020, we made a Petna, a sparkling wine, and two rosés, one port, and now the ethanol botanical. So as a result of this experiment, what's nice about having a small lot, usually about 20 to 40 gallons, depending on the harvest year, it does make a great impact in our catalog of what we can offer folks. And one of the things that, season, one of the things that we're nationally recognized for our Norton is what we don't do to it. So for example, if I'm taking my Norton and I wanna age it, I'm not gonna put it in this brand new French barrel and, you know, get the coconut and the spice notes. I want it to be a neutral oak. I want it to be as, so I like to say I'm not the pianist, nor the piano, I'm the piano tuner, and Taravoks in Latin voice the land. I'm just really trying to give the grape and the wine the voice, not anything outside of that. So that's one of the beautiful things that we got out of the ethanol botanical experiment, as well as with the Potomka, make a white wine, a white port, and we discovered a barrel of wine that was, I had a massive amount of headspace in it and it had enough booze in it. It's the point where it kind of tastes like a sherry. So we're trying to recreate that. And then finally, the ethanol botanical Potomka. So yeah, any questions? Great. Yeah, so just. I'm talking to Nathan. So what were your principal practices? Oh, okay. So eliminating spraying, inter-seeding seeds, the green clover, white clover, snow pea in Kentucky bluegrass, adding compost, and the hopes were if we can improve our nutrient management, then the smaller micronutrients can kind of pull together and fight this immunity to some of the diseases that might be across. And as we learned, that was something that's harder to mitigate. So to answer your question. Yeah, so you mentioned the field spray that you did, the 500 and 501. Yeah, so if we go back to the section. So these two rows in yellow, we sprayed. But when it came to spraying, pretty much the length of the sprayer, if it were to hit, say four rows, we'd stop spraying those four rows as a buffer to make sure. But of course, with Wind Drift and other folks around us, you know, what do you do about that? So we did our best ability. And there was a significant difference between the neighboring vines versus those two rows. So we could see where, you know, powdery mildewers not affect your deeper into a tonka, whereas those rows were affected by it. Yeah. I'll send you an email. Cool. I'll send you to number four. Excellent. Great, thank you. Jen, I'm just interested to know, you know, moving forward, what's the future plan for Terrahawks? So for Terrahawks, as soon as we submitted that send button to send this, these results off. Jerry and I took the gator, drove down this little road and kind of thinking about what we were wanting to do for the upcoming harvest. We were saying, oh, we should expand it to two more rows. And then we started getting crazier and like, let's just do the whole block. And to the point where we're like, well, let's take the entire West side and go biodynamic with it. That's still something that we're curious to do and that we're aiming to do. But, and this isn't being a martyr, but being a winemaker, being a vineyard manager, you know, there's also excise taxes. There's also what does marketing look like? And we're a small, small crew. So we really want to do what's best for the vineyard, but also what makes sense economically. So we certainly do want to continue this biodynamic endeavor, especially if it makes higher quality wine. And we'll keep that going too because good wine makes the world go around. I was also a bit late. So where is your vineyard, please? Yeah, so TeraVox is about 30 minutes from downtown Kansas City, about 15 minutes from Weston in Zonarosa and about 15 minutes from the airport. Rolling green, oh, you probably didn't see the spectrum. You're really close here, yeah. So that's the actual vineyard? Yeah. So I just have a question about biodynamic versus organic. And so you said you had powdery mildew and you can spray copper, which is organically certified, but when you're calling it biodynamic or you're not able to even spray an organic material? That is something I have been curious about. Like what's the wiggle room with organic sprays to still qualify as a biodynamic name? But like I mentioned before that we're not, as of right now, we're not searching to get Demeter certified, which is a certification for biodynamic. But copper is a tricky thing because once copper makes out into the vineyard, then there has been shown proof that the copper does create some complications in the cellar. So though we do spray the surrounding areas of stuff that I'm spraying, especially for fungicide, if I see something that I'm spraying, something like a parasitic acid and something like an oxidator spork well, where it's parasitic acid and we're getting the other chemical, which is very low harm and it doesn't have this very negative impact on the grapes. But it's something I could spray the day before harvest and it's still healthy to consume for us. Yeah, it's a lot of figuring out and what we wanna do forward. So we're certainly open minded and continuing that dialogue with the grapes so we could figure out the right approach. I have another question or more. So are you finding a demand or a price bump for the botanical wine versus non-botanical do consumers really care? To an extent, I had asked this at a meeting that we're having in one of my case studies for my MBA we're talking about the conscious consumer and how is that affecting producers? And I think people are always gonna ask where does the fruit come from and how is it treated? And of course, like when I was at my undergrad at Texas State, one of the things I was so proud of is focusing on soil fertility, not this huge demands and being a cause to the Missouri River the Mississippi River dead zone but to be on the other side of that coin. So there has been, I would say for every 10 visits we have I wanna say somewhere between seven to nine times of the 10, someone asked, do you spray roundup? Do you spray this, do you spray that? And we're completely transparent. We say exactly what we do. And in terms of pricing, it's hard to do at the low end for the red wine. It's $27, but if something won best in class at San Francisco, which in the Midwest, that's huge, right? So we would price those up, but then it's a little bit on the because of how laborious it is in general. I wanna say the ethobotanical somewhere in between the $35 range versus the 27 for that purpose. Is that charging? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also we have two wine club releases a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. And prior to that, we'd never really put Norton into the wine club packages, but as a result of this Norton has been making an appearance because we really wanna share those because every block, the east block, the center block, the west block, I mean those three wines, four wines because the ethobotanical could not be more different from each other even though it's the same east, same process and everything else. So I just have a curiosity like the organic gardening organic agriculture is pretty universal. Everybody knows that, but when you say it's an botanical does your client customers understand what you're talking about? Usually no. And then that's when Jerry or usually that question gets asked when Jerry's in the format of a presentation. Now mind you, I have a great bandwidth of everything that's going on but what he would say about the, because he coined that term, I'm gonna let him define that. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Any questions here? Let's use a microphone so that recorded version also has this conversation on. I thought I heard you say during the takeaways that it was less labor and then at least slightly if not more better outcomes. And then when you were thinking about expanding you wanted to be careful not to expand too fast. And I was wondering if there were specific downsides to it that you, or you just wanna be careful about. Yeah, it's certainly the careful aspects. With the 60 varietals, the other thing I didn't mention is in this area right here in this area, so this is Cliff Ambers. A lot of those great varietals don't even have names yet. This section is also our seedling section. So with all the different, so we're exploring diversity, we're exploring with experimenting but at the same time the business model is it demands for a typicity. So if I make a red wine this way it can only, it should only get better but if I'm gonna abandon that red wine program to make a rosé then it's kind of productive to the business model. But to your point, there certainly needs to be a approach of if we just cut off spraying completely we can go from, I don't know, 10 tons to six tons which give us all a heart attack. But I think in the interim when we can slowly grow and we create this program of what we would need I would hope that the entire west block can be biodynamic that we can expand to the rest of the vineyard. So that's the hope, that's the approach. So the downside was it does at least temporarily reduce production? Yes, yeah. I think 2020 we went from 581 pounds like 486 this past year we had a rough time in the vineyard we had about half that and it wasn't a biodynamic Norton or Watumka it was the entirety of the vineyard. So 2022 is kind of like a put an asterisk on that on that year for that case. But yeah, the other takeaway I'm thinking about it we wanna continue so right here it's kind of hard to tell that's where our compost pile is. I've been really interested to go into our irrigation system that's right here and implementing a sort of a fertigation type of thing where I can just go ahead and if I have compost tea I can just go ahead and streamline that into the irrigation. The only trouble with that is our irrigation line works great here but this section is on that section can't be on so we'd have to turn out so logistically we can make it work but since that side of the vineyard the original the old vineyard all the irrigation is just there aren't any need for irrigation anymore so it'd be difficult to kind of go back and turn the water on but if it makes sense then I think we should go ahead and try to continue that. So that's another thing. I don't know if compost is not necessarily it might be a little more laborious to actually like scoop on a gator drop in the vineyard versus streamlining that into the irrigation line. So I think that might be a route that route that we're certainly looking at taking. So looking at the property it's pretty hard to tell but do you have any experience of herbicide drift? Yes. So 2-4-D Dicamba that's certainly something that I saw back in Texas when I was making one there as well as here. So you will see on the grapes, on the grape leaf this sort of like stretch marks it's almost to the point where imagine it being stretched to the point where it's less green and a little bit more white. So that's one of the results we've had. You can see in this section this was taken I think two and a half years ago so this section a lot more dense this section is still growing. Now we're at the point where it's pretty much all covered but one of the things that we would see down the rows is as a result of 2-4-D Dicamba the juvenile vines were having a tough time they were just so stunted. They were stunted with their production and that's something that wasn't great and on top of that with the drift that we received there's also the pregnant deer that are coming in wanting to eat the juvenile grape vines. So we did put up blue tubes but yeah drift is something we certainly get a decent number of.