 Hello and welcome to our keynote for day two of OAR by Domains21. I am absolutely delighted to be introducing our keynote speaker today. Jasmine Roberts is a professor of communication at the Ohio State University and is a renowned worldwide as an open education leader. Her advocacy work centers on creating a socially just academia as well as experiences of people of color, women, queer communities. You are very experienced in terms of a global presentation, so I know we're in good hands. I think this is going to be a highlight for me for this conference and I'm sure it'll be for many people too. Jasmine, it's over to you. All right. Well, that was that was a really great welcoming. He might hear my dogs, so sorry about that. So welcome to today's talk. I'm really excited to be here with you all. I've been trying to keep up with all the tweets and what have you. I really hope this event has been very informative. I don't know if we can, yeah, okay, I was going to say the slides. So even though I'm really happy to be here, this is actually my first time attending this conference. I do have to be very vulnerable with you all. I am kind of in a somber mood. So for those who have been keeping up, unfortunately with the news in the US, the killings of black Americans by police continues to really traumatize me. I really struggle with how public black grief has become and, you know, including the final moments of black victims of police brutality in that, you know, news and social media are releasing images and video of black people being brutally killed by the police. Excuse me. And so again, this is really traumatizing given the fact that black Americans suffer immensely from generational trauma and systemic disempowerment due to systemic racism, of course. And that is, you know, it's very rare that justice and accountability ever take place in these events. And so with all of that being said, I'd like to dedicate my keynote to Makaya Bryant, who was a 16-year-old girl who was shot and killed by police where I live in Columbus, Ohio, in the US after they failed to de-escalate a situation that she called them for help. Makaya, you are supposed to be here and I'm really, really sorry that so many adults failed you in this system. Also, before I begin my address, I'd like to go ahead and do a territory acknowledgement. I think it's really important to do this territory acknowledgement in this virtual environment that we find ourselves in, because I think that's a core component of, you know, what we're trying to do here in open ed, at least if we're trying to decolonize our work. And so the state that I live in, the US state that I live in, in Ohio, these were the original stewards of the land that, again, I live in the tribes. I find it ironic that I live in a city that, of course, is indigenous territory, and it has been renamed after a brutal colonizer, that being, of course, Christopher Columbus. And so it's my hope that these type of native land or territory acknowledgments will help us in our much needed path towards reconciliation with our uncomfortable global history. And throughout the talk, I am going to use black and indigenous scholarship, but I want to acknowledge that I am not, you know, extremely knowledgeable about the indigenous education and the specific issues that that population faces within, you know, higher ed. Excuse me, I'm more well versed in black feminist scholarship, but I still think it's important to learn from indigenous ways of knowing, of course, and to elevate examples of this critical contribution. And then also, I really do feel like sometimes territorial acknowledgments can come across as a little performative, right? There's so much that especially US universities have to do to reckon with how we still do to this day, benefit from the theft of indigenous lands. So journalist Tristan Autown and historian, I believe his name is Bobby Lee. So at the last two years, tracking how 11 million land or 11 million acres of land were taken from more than 250 indigenous tribes and communities to help fund land-grant universities in the late 19th century. In particular, there is an act called the Moral Act in 1862 that helped to basically create what we call like this massive transfer of wealth from indigenous lands to university endowments. And so essentially what we have here is, you know, we really have to think about how the financial success of universities in the US was paid by the expropriation of indigenous land and settler colonialism. We can see how, for example, my home institution, the Ohio State University, has actually benefited from this theft of indigenous land and expropriation. So it's really important to connect indigenous lands to the foundation of public universities in the US beyond a mere territory acknowledgement. All right. And then another acknowledgement that I want to do, but before I get into that, how many of you all will be alive in the year 2111? Anyone? Probably not, right? Well, oddly enough, the year 2111 is the year that Black or African-Americans will be free longer than they have been enslaved since they were taken from their homeland in 1619. And so again, our global history is not as decent as we want to make it seem out or seem to be, excuse me, and its modern legacies are alive and well today. So this is why I want to acknowledge that I'm the descendant of people who were enslaved, African people who were enslaved, taken from their homeland to work against their will on foreign land. I really feel like I gained my tenacity and determination from them. And so again, all of these acknowledgments that I spent the last five minutes doing, I feel like as a part of the social justice framework that I seek to center in my work. So in today's talk, what I really want to focus a lot on is again, the global commitments that open education makes and what those commitments look like during this time, right? We have entered a very different realm in education, at least in my opinion, a realm or an era that is somewhat painful for some of us, an era that causes us to address our personal and institutional trauma, right? I think it's also a period where it calls for us to truly heal and to realize the promises of education, whether it be K through 12, higher ed, things of that sort. And to that end, open education is certainly having to grapple with some of the same issues. And I've talked about this a great deal this past year, of course, with the pandemic going on. Open ed doesn't operate in some sort of vacuum, of course. So in this talk, what I'd like to do is again, talk about those commitments that we need to revisit, right? And center in our open educational practices. So what I want to more specifically discuss is how a socially just open education can in some areas address our global commitments and education, but also discuss how open might not be the most culturally or socially appropriate way to go about doing this, right? Sometimes, again, open is not appropriate. And also to put some things out there, I am approaching this from an educator standpoint. So I'll specifically be speaking to my educators in the live stream, but I think many people can benefit from this talk as well. So all in all, I think open education advocates and supporters alike really cannot shy away from the promise open ed. And again, that is that education should be communal, affordable, equitable, inclusive, and we can go on and on, right? To everyone, regardless of their background. So let's begin by talking about how, of course, COVID has fundamentally changed how we imagine education and our role in this system. It has certainly revealed and unfortunately, exasperated inequities that we should have addressed more intentionally and with more urgency pre COVID-19. And we also need to pay attention to the fact that there's so much isolation and anxiety and even depression going on within and outside of the academy. And of course, this is like exasperated a lot, you know, in the past year that it has, of course, before. And you know, as a side note, it really shouldn't take a global pandemic to sympathize, for example, with the modern legacies of systemic racism or to see our students, faculty and staff as human, right? But here we are. When we are talking about open education and what it means to really revisit those global commitments that we've made in the past and what that looks like during the COVID-19 era, it means for me, approaching things from a mental health standpoint. And I talk about this almost in all of my talks so far ever since COVID-19 started, because I think that's really, really important to center. And so what does this actually look like, right? And so for me, as an educator and someone who talks about open ed a lot and an advocate of such practices, this means or looks like teaching and leading with mental health in mind. And I think this moment that we're living in right now provides a great opportunity for us, especially for educators who are listening, for us to create a culture of wellness with students, right? And doing that will help to create pathways towards academic success, instead of us assuming that we know what's best for them. And so all of this includes like teaching and leading with empathy and mental health in mind, like I just said. And I think it's that's one of the things I really appreciate about OERs in particular is that it can potentially address some of these issues by its nature. The fact that many of course, but not all are designed with accessibility and cost savings in mind. You know, I also kind of wonder what we're doing to students when psychologically, right? And we're assigning course materials that are not accessible, whether that be financially or some other means, or are not culturally responsive, do not reflect their, their heritage, for example, or their culture's ways of knowing and producing knowledge. What kind of messages are we sending students in terms of who belongs, right? And who does not, especially those students who come from backgrounds that are not traditionally centered. And so also in revisiting our global commitments to open education, we need to do this, excuse me, we need to do this by centering the human approach and education. Our students and faculty are yearning for a human connection probably now more than ever. And I know I keep saying that, but it just this moment just seems so, so different from what many of us have experienced in our lifetime. And so I encourage those who are listening to really lead and teach with empathy. And I want to specifically talk to my educators in the room, in the virtual room, you know, yes, we have to get through our content and classes and managing our our health and trying to be encouraging of the wellness of our students that can be a lot to manage. It's very, very difficult. But I think, you know, obviously something to keep in mind. And this is another thing I say a lot in my presentations. And I will continue to say it a lot is that we are teaching students and not content. And what I mean by that is keeping our students wellness first and foremost, if we want them to succeed academically and just as people, right, take the academics outside of it or out of this conversation for a moment. And I think, you know, students will remember that more about your class and who you are as a professor when you prioritize their wellness as opposed to the content that you covered, right? You know, students are not just, of course, these knowledge buckets that we pour all this content into. And I'm glad to be a part of a community that an open head at least that realizes that these people are people, students are people. So the content, of course, will come, but radical empathy for students and faculty cannot and should not wait. And so the spirit of open ed, one of the reasons why I'm still in open education, to be honest with you, is that this community is really striving to advocate for inclusive education, which of course I think is amazing. But like any other movement, I do call it a movement or a field, whatever term you want to use, there are some things that we have to be aware of that maybe we're not aware of. These blinders, if you will, that are placed upon us because of the privilege that many of us, if not all of us, have in some shape or form. And so I talk a lot about the intersection between social justice, higher ed, open education in particular, and how open ed can be a vehicle to achieve a socially just academia. And so using a social justice framework as many scholars have called for, specifically in open ed, will help us to address these privileges more intentionally, help us to center our global commitments in open education and advocate for a more inclusive education during this COVID-19 pandemic. So my initial conversation, like I said, I've been in open ed, let's see, this is 2021, can't believe that I would say since 2016, so not very long. My first conversation about open education was not framed as a social justice issue, but rather a textbook affordability issue, which of course has social justice elements to it. But now that I've had a little bit more experience, I'm wondering if this is a problem, right? Would I feel differently about open education now? And more importantly, when I created an OER myself, would I have asked the right questions, which in turn would have led to more inclusive content and representation or representative, excuse me, of marginalized communities. So it's really my belief that when we're having these conversations with students, faculty and staff who are new to open ed, that we should discuss this from a social justice angle. And so all of this kind of leads me to a few questions that I would love to discuss with you all maybe in the Q&A, I don't have all the answers to these questions. But this is something that I'm constantly thinking about when I'm talking or writing about these issues, the intersection between social justice and open education and how it can help us to really center our global commitments. So the questions are, how do we make sure that people from marginalized communities are better represented in open education, whether that through open access, OERs, open science, things of that sort. How can we talk more to especially faculty and educators, how they can decolonize their curriculum. And I understand the term decolonization is not really well defined depending upon who's talking. And so we can also kind of unpack that if we have time during the Q&A session, what does that term actually mean to decolonize. And then last question that I'm really interested in. I know a lot of wonderful scholars are wrestling with this as well. How can we make sure that the global north isn't always writing for the global south in opening licensed materials? Again, like I just said, I do not have the answers to all of these questions, but I definitely want to try to find those answers with like-minded scholars and practitioners and what have you. So another place that I'm looking at in terms of when we talk about centering and revisiting our global commitments in open ed is correcting our historical narratives and discourses about the field and acknowledging that open ed or open education or at least the idea behind it is actually nothing new. And I'll explain that in just a second. The spirit of open education, like I said, the idea behind it actually comes from indigenous communities and black feminist thought. And there are other scholars who assert this as well. So I want to introduce Marco Cipherli Valencia and he's an open education librarian at the University of Idaho in the US state of Idaho, of course. And last year at the 2020 open education conference, he delivered this brilliant presentation. It was so good y'all. It was titled OER as intentionally engage social justice. And he argued that of course in open ed, we have to move beyond textbook discourses, excuse me, and obviously center social justice or social justice framework when we were talking about open education. He also talked about how there's very little literature out there that talks about this intersection, etc., etc. But the most exciting part of his presentation in my opinion was that he was able to connect open education ideologies and premises to black feminist thought. He essentially provided language, honestly, y'all, to something that I have been thinking about a lot. And when he presented, I fangirled, I'm not going to lie. Again, he provided so much language to thoughts and discussions I had been having with people, but I didn't know how to quite make those connections. I knew there was something about open education that I've already had seen or experienced prior to coming into this field because of a textbook issue or a textbook problem. And so he specifically argued in his presentation, I do have a quote here that I want to read from his presentation, that conventional histories and scholarly contextualizations of open movements do not connect open pedagogy to liberatory women of color feminist proxy and scholarship on education. So again, in other words, open education ain't a new in terms of its ideologies, you know, surrounding the role of the classroom in society in terms of interrogating institutional frameworks, policies and procedures, and even putting forth questions such as whose knowledge is reliable and centered. The idea of openness is rooted in black feminist liberation as Marco so brilliantly demonstrated in his presentation. Yet, those who are in open ed know that much of the credit in terms of defining open education and ways to think about this is given to white and or cisgender male scholars in open ed. And, you know, also I think it's these mostly white men who are considered thought leaders in open ed, although I am very hopeful that we are at this really interesting moment where I think that is really beginning to change. And so I want us to really pause and think about this question that I'm going to pose and that is what is to be said about open education when we can trace its practices and ideologies beyond current thought leaders. It's certainly not to discount their labor, but rather to call attention to the ease we have in assigning authoritative knowledge to white men without considering the immense contributions of people of color from both the global north and global south. So much of what we know now as education or open education, excuse me, has been talked about in a lot of detail and is beautifully demonstrated in the labor of scholars of color, particularly women of color. So this is one small but powerful way we can center social justice in open ed and correct or and correct our historical narratives about this movement. And as Marco says in this quote, and I'm just going to read a few parts about it or in reference to it, the foundational works of black feminist scholars like Bell Hooks, who I'm going to mention a little bit later on, and Regina Austin are both intellectual foremothers to many concepts and contemporary open practice. So speaking of Bell Hooks, if we look at this quote, for example, from her book, her essay, excuse me, teaching to transgress, she says, I celebrate teaching that enables transgression, a movement against and beyond boundaries. It is that movement which makes education a practice of freedom. And so I embrace these transgressions that she speaks of. This is actually really the anchor of my teaching philosophy as an educator. And so this same ideology that I think she's trying to put forth in this quote and in her her essay appears to be replicated in open education practices, such as open pedagogy, right, the practice of engaging with students as content creators through OER, and other open practices, rather than them just being passive consumers of it. So in other words, the transgression of boundaries that Bell Hooks talks about, both seek to both open pedagogy and what Bell Hooks is talking about, seek to challenge the role of educators and students, power dynamics in the classroom, and center students knowledgeable as valuable, excuse me. So all in all, what I'm arguing is that these ideas are actually not entirely new. And that we need to acknowledge this instead of packaging open education and whiteness and white saviorhood. We have scholars of color to think for already doing and continuing to do this labor. And I want to show you all some more examples of people who are doing this labor. So doctors Gloria Sneevly and Lorna Williams out of Canada created an open textbook bringing indigenous science into the fold with Western science. And I actually really, really like this because, you know, we constantly assume that Western science is the safest or most reliable. When we look at the health care experiences of people of color in the West, and again, the history of these experiences, it paints a different story, but that's another talk. As written from the authors of this textbook, they put, you can kind of see it here, the slide is a little small. When we acknowledge or when we braid indigenous science with Western science, we acknowledge that both ways of knowing are legitimate forms of knowledge. This is just one way that we can again, recenter global commitments and achieve a socially just open end. Some other scholars who are doing some amazing work, and I just want to give a shout out to those in Twitter or on Twitter who gave me some amazing recommendations, particularly scholars of color who are doing some wonderful work in the open education space. So Dr. Sherry Deckman, she's a professor from SUNY in the US state of New York. She created an open pedagogy assignment in which her graduate students created final projects websites for their final projects, I should say. And she did this because in a webinar when she presented about this experience, she argued that Black girl studies in particular is well aligned with open pedagogy ideologies. And she stated in this webinar that, and I have a quote here, yes, Black girlhood studies is situated in a tradition that interrogates whose knowledge is reliable, right? So I've said that statement before, and critiquing the things that have always just been done a certain way. Black girlhood studies questions the ways in which knowledge has been traditionally constructed and dominant epistemologies. So again, she had her students create websites, and you can see an example here on the slide, from one of her students, Kristen Miller, to make sure like these assignments were more accessible beyond the academy, which of course could serve as a resource for all kinds of educators and just people in general. Again, her graduate student Kristen Miller stated that initially when she was doing this type of work, this open pedagogy work, it was challenging, but I encourage her to think differently and to bring her lived experience into the work and to the scholarship. Really made her kind of question the notion of public scholarship and the value of public scholarship. A few other scholars. So Tuskeying Adam, she does a lot of work with talking about the decolonization of MOOCs. She has a recent paper out, excuse me, arguing that MOOCs should strive for all kinds of justices, not just material justice that we see here. And she does argue that those two should not be just mutually exclusive, that we can address all kinds of justices within MOOCs as well. And so I also want to transition to another group that's doing some amazing work, really, really good work. And we can see this group in particular that's made up mostly of scholars of color, that is the socially just academia group that I have the privilege of also being a part of. Some of you might have heard of this group and might even attended some of our discussions. So this project, which actually stems from Equity Unbound, I believe, led by Mahabali Zmora, excuse me, and Catherine Conan, came from after Equity Unbound held an inclusive citation webinar, I think it was last summer. And that was coming off of the heels of oh gosh, a lot of racial injustice protests that started in the U.S. but seemed to ripple across the world. So again, it's a group of scholars from across the world, not just the U.S., Canada, or UK, mostly people of color who are facilitating these discussions. And these discussions really seek to engage in an open network, really committed to dismantling, of course, oppression in education systems. And we also seek to discuss practices that get closer at centering decolon, excuse me, anti-racist practices and really trying to center that within our respective institutions. So I've just presented some really amazing work from scholars of color and I really encourage us to be more intentional about centering this kind of work. And so I'm noticing here that I'm running a little low on time, so I'm going to transition towards the end of my talk. So even though I've been advocating for anti-racism and social justice frameworks to be at the core of open education in order to sustain our global commitments, we have to make sure we are doing this number one with care. We have to be intentional about this and awareness of whether or not open is culturally appropriate for certain situations. So referring back to the 2020 OpenEd conference, one of the amazing keynotes there was, it was a really great conference, by the way. One of the amazing keynotes there was Jesse Lawyer as she's a librarian out of Mount Royal University in Canada. And she delivered, again, a very thought-provoking keynote and she argued that essentially the push towards openness or in that push towards openness, we sometimes miss some cultural context in that there are certain things that should not be open or we should have questioned at least, should it be open? For example, Jesse says that open access and Indigenous thought and assertions about information can emerge from a very similar impulse and these are literally kind of her words, the idea that something is being held from us, but there are important differences to consider. So open access argues for, you know, open to be unlimited to everyone for the most part. Indigenous thought, as Jesse pointed out in her keynote, argues that openness for those who are the rightful authors, inheritance of this, this information. And so she also asserts that we need Indigenous consultation when referring to open access and open education in general, if we want to use open ed as a tool to serve Indigenous sovereignty and let Indigenous people decide what happens to their information. And so in what ways can we apply this same cultural competence to other marginalized communities when we're trying to leverage open ed in the name of, you know, engaging in socially just labor and equity? And we also have to consider the differing risk of doing such work at open education depending on who is doing that labor, right? So particularly scholars of color who are often charged to do anti-racist work with their students, with their colleagues, they study social justice issues like myself are at a particular risk. There is an increasing amount of faculty members of color who are aggressively attacked for simply doing their work, right? Calling out the very systems that breed systemic inequities and discrimination. If you all are interested, Dr. Stephen Finley, Bico Gray and Laurie Martin authored an article, I would say about two or three years ago, I can't remember off the top of my head, title affirming our values. And in that article they discuss how faculty of color are particularly vulnerable in doing their work, especially if they write or research about, you know, race related or social justice related issues or talk about these topics in the classroom. I know they were talking about some of them have received death threats or violent threats in reference to their work. One professor reported that someone followed them up to their children's school. This was pre-pandemic but still and may threats to them directly in their face. You know, even I myself have been accused of a liberal indoctrination. I have a liberal agenda trying to brainwash my students. Sometimes they're not most of my students say that, but of course a small minority do, that I'm being too political, right? In my classroom I talk about social justice and the intersection between social justice and what I'm talking about in the classroom. And you know, what of course they don't realize when people make those comments about a liberal indoctrination is that, you know, politics is at the core of every single educational practice and decision that is made within and outside of the classroom. But my point being is that there has to be more institutional support and infrastructure around protecting scholars who are trying to do this hard work. Again, this is already a particularly vulnerable population when we're talking about faculty of color and to not protect them while doing this important scholarship in my opinion is an act of disrespect. It's devaluing their work and it's gross negligence. So we need to keep this in mind when we deliver an ask of certain groups. All right, so now I want to go ahead and transition to the end. So how do I wrap this up? You know, I talked a lot about recentering our global commitments and the fact that our commitment and open education is even more important now than ever in my opinion. We really can't buy into this idea that our work can wait until a more appropriate time. The historically marginalized are even more at the margins during the pandemic because of systemic discrimination and oppression. So those in open ed have to remain steadfast to our social justice work because of this. And you might see here a quote I mentioned at the beginning of my talk that you know how I'm coming to you with a very sober heart and mind and that this week has been particularly difficult for me because of the anti-black violence that we're seeing in the U.S. I felt a sense of hopelessness and helplessness that I haven't felt in a long, long, long, long time. And I started to question my work to be honest with you. But I'm reminded that for many of us in this open ed space, frustration and even anger with unjust systems and procedures brought us to this space, right? And that's fine, right? As I put there, anger usually sparks some type of like social justice labor or wanting to engage in this labor. But love, love of people and their right to equality education that will enable them to live their lives fully and abundantly is honestly what's going to sustain this work and is currently sustaining me in this moment. And just to go back to Bell Hooks one more time in her book All About Love, she talks about how and again quote all the great social movements for freedom and justice in our society have promoted a love ethic. The testimony of love is the practice of freedom. So again, we have so much healing to do. But I believe open education firmly rooted in a love ethic and dedicated to its global commitments can be essential in this path towards healing. So thank you all so much. And I think we have a few more minutes for questions. Thank you so much, Jasmine. Yes, if you stop sharing your screen now, hopefully you'll be able to see all the comments. We've got over 40 comments coming in. Please, everybody, join in with your questions in the comments on the YouTube channel. And indeed, I know Jasmine, you had a couple of questions there earlier. But I suppose just from my immediate reaction to this was, wow, I think you've given us an awful lot to think about around the context in which we're all in different places and the space where you are in at the moment. And I think one of the things I always think I'm always reminded of when people talk about anti-violence against, whether it's based on race, whether it's based on LGBTQ issues, whether it's anti-women's violence, I think that the anger that's coming from there is when those privileges are being chipped away. And it's when that is being surfaced, then something is going right, but it's so hard to stick with it, isn't it? It is. And I don't... Try not to get emotional, my goodness. It's just been a horrific week in the US. It really has. And I'm so sorry. It's very, very tough. But like I said, what sustains me is a quote from, well, obviously the love ethic that I was talking about, but also a quote from Michelle Alexander, who is the author of the new Jim Crow. She's a professor at Stanford University in California. And she also talked about in one of these webinars I attended, I'm like fangirling all these scholars here, but she talks about how social justice is a process, it's not a destination. And I think that was so powerful for me because I get a lot of questions even from my students when we talk about social justice. When is this going to end? When can we just be done with this? And that's always a hard question for me to answer because for me, social justice, and I can't remember who I was talking to, this person might even be in the audience, but I was saying essentially social justice, any type of social justice work, whether it's in education or other spaces, it is like a science to me, right? So the creators of the COVID-19 vaccine, for example, once they created the vaccine or like, okay, this is safe to distribute to the public, the scientists behind that, they weren't like, okay, well, our work is done, we're just going to retire, live on a beach somewhere. They're still doing really good work, right? And so for me, this labor is a lifelong commitment. For me, this labor is always going to be needed in some capacity. So there is not an end destination that I have in mind because this work is going to always be needed. And I think finding the places where you and other people can sustain themselves and finding that those places of love and nurture, whether it's conferences like this or conversations that we have in safe spaces or supporting each other in those open spaces, it's really important. I don't know if you can see into the comments there, Jasmine, the things that are coming through are just fantastic. If anybody has a comment or question that they want to ask. I know, I see here, Sonia, McCristi asking how do we start change? How do we start to change? I'm not sure what they were referring to, what does it look like? And that's such a hard, it's a good question, right? And it's also a difficult question because it really depends upon your institution and your background. So I'm kind of hesitant to speak for all situations. But I think in terms of where that change starts, it starts when you are tired of the same old same old. What does that actually look like? That looks like engaging with your community, right? There's so much power in communal work. That's why I mentioned socially just academia and some of these other groups that are doing really great work only because there is a communal aspect to it. And so I would really encourage you to get with your community and start thinking about what work makes sense for that community. And then Helen here, I see that they're asking, do we need alternative imagined futures? Though even if they are not exactly final destinations, the alternative is that we just do education better. Absolutely. I do wonder where this notion of like, I don't know. So on one hand, yes, we want to make sure that we are making progress in this labor, even if you're not into like the intersection between social justice and education, that's fine. I think there's a level of us that's innate as human beings that we want to make sure that whatever we're doing is on the right track. Maybe I'm not sure if I'm using the right language there. But I like what I think was Helen that said in terms of reimagining these destinations, if you will. And I think that's where that slide you had earlier, where you said we're teaching humans not content. And it comes back to that as a fundamental basis of the relational aspect of teaching, not about stuff, but about people. And at its heart, that's what socially just education is. And even getting that across is a really great starting point. Yeah, I mean, because I think that's the part of an unjust society, right? There's dehumanization at its core. And so for me, when I humanize myself as a human, I know that sounds kind of weird, in front of my students, it just changes the entire classroom landscape. It really does. I think as faculty, we have this image of like, who we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to show up in the classroom. And of course, that comes from traditions and policies and all that good stuff that don't really serve us. It's such a relief when you can present yourself as human. And I know that that is easier and more challenging for certain people, depending upon your context, right? So I don't want to make it seem as though, shame on you for not doing that, because there's a lot of context there that needs to be considered. And I've just noticed when I have been able to do that, it changes things. And for me, humanizing myself and my work, my labor, even just now, when I kind of tear it up, is an act of resistance against a society that is really hell bent on dehumanizing me as a woman, as a black woman. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there should never be circumstances where anyone feels they have to apologize for their emotions in a situation. Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to get here more to some other comments. I know we'll have one more minute left. I think the question around speculative fiction fiction was a follow up to Helen's question earlier about final destinations and imagined futures. And, you know, what are the imaginative ways that we could sort of visualize things different? That's a great question, too. I'm not sure if I have a good answer for that. My initial impulse is kind of thinking about who's doing the imagining, right? And yeah, still like what epistemologies are still being centered or marginalized with even within those fiction realities, I'm not sure if I'm being clear there, but that was my initial impulse. I'm not sure. Gosh, that's a question that actually kind of stumped me. I'm not sure exactly how to answer it, to be honest. I'm okay with saying I don't know, but I do want to say that, you know, that was my initial reaction. That lovely comment there from Francis. Thank you, Francis. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you. Yeah, I think there are, you know, culture wars are very much alive and well in campuses in various countries. Oh, yes, absolutely. It's not just the US or the UK. I think it's happening across the globe. Yeah, there's a certain amount of policing and gatekeeping that's going on around education at the moment. It's a very live debate. And I think, you know, equally, I suppose that's what you were talking there earlier about open education and, you know, the white men are seen as these, the origin myth stories around open education and stuff like that, that it's again, going back to Bell Hooks and pushing against those boundaries every time. Yeah. Well, like I said, I do want to thank Marco Sarfilé, Valencia, for putting forth that paper and that narrative because, like I said, it's something that I had been thinking about, but I just didn't know how to put that language into play. And so when I saw his presentation, I was like, Oh, okay. Thank you. It was amazing. It was really, really good. So I think something really powerful about that, that idea of having a language with which to talk about these things. And I think making that language something that other people we can communicate through, it's so, it's so important and sort of getting everybody to take ownership of that. Yeah. Absolutely. And even, you know, Gabby had put here, and I think you're, you're able to put that ownership out there because of the, like Gabby's pointing out, the notion of education for social justice as a labor of love, you know, I think without that love ethic there, you're not able to really take that ownership. Yeah. And with love comes vulnerability. And with that comes self care as much as care for others. And it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's all the themes within this conference wrapped up in one keynote. Oh, thank you. We've just got a couple of minutes left. I don't know, Jim, if you want to keep flashing up some of those wonderful comments so that people watching the video will be able to see back and some of the things we've got here. Yeah. I just wanted to point out someone virtually connecting saying creating open materials does not cost free. Yes. So sorry, I did not point that out. They are free to use for most users, but not free to create. Absolutely. Let's see here. Yes. Someone put Warwick language. No, I don't have all the answers. It just, I don't know. I don't like presenting myself as all knowing because we can learn so much from each other as pokey pokey as that sounds, but we can. We really, really can. Investing time in social justice work plus investing time in practices of care. How can we make this the bottom line of our pedagogies? Yeah. So I want to, and I know we don't have a lot of time here. I want to draw from Maya Hay. She's a PhD student in Canada, I believe. She talked about how in one of our social justice academic discussions how that's particularly challenging. I think what I can't remember who asked that question, but essentially it's challenging, right? Because we're doing this double work in the sense of the social justice labor. And then those who are working within these institutions, we have to get our degrees, our scholarship kind of conferred or validated through these institutions while challenging these institutions, right? So what Maya is saying, I think also kind of alludes to what I think Lou is saying in this question. How do we invest time in the social justice framework while engaging in practices of care? I want to draw from Dr. Angela Davis, another Black feminist, and she talks about how self-care for her is communal care. And when she unfortunately was in prison or in jail, excuse me, and she was obviously really going through it for lack of better words. I don't know any other way to put it. She talked about her self-care really came from the power from her community, right? And so again, I think in terms of the bottom line, our pedagogies, our pedagogies have to be communal in nature in order to really marry this intersection that I think Lou was talking about, social justice framework with practices of care. We've got a couple of last questions there, one from Daniel, Lorna. Lorna is talking about the labor of care as well, and Daniel is talking about foundations. Thank you for your fascinating reminders of the risk of openness. How do you think that these risks also urge us to rethink the foundation of how the digital public works? You know, it's another question that I want to think more about, partially because when we're talking about the digital public, my initial response is who are we referring to when we say the digital public? So I think that what helped me to perhaps better answer that question but I think in terms of like thinking about these risks and how it's related to the foundations of the digital public, I think it charges us to rethink the histories of the digital public, at least the way that I'm thinking about it as well because these histories continue to echo through modern times. And then Lorna asks, how can we work to ensure the labor of care and social justice labor is acknowledged and more equally distributed? Yeah, so that's a good question because in terms of social justice labor, it tends to be unequally distributed that being marginalized communities are carrying the load, if you will, of social justice labor, whether that be women, people of color, women of color, queer folks. I mean, the list goes on and on, those from the Global South. And so I think it's important to realize and to communicate to those who have said privileges, not just racial privilege, because I think that's the privilege that we like to focus on the most, but there's so many different forms of privilege. I think it's important to emphasize how we all benefit from social justice labor, from social justice work. And I think it's unfortunate that we have to essentially highlight the benefits, the what's in it for me, for individuals, but that is at least the most practical way that I see this labor being equally distributed by showing that we all benefit from a socially just society and showing, excuse me, how an unjust society really does not benefit all of us. Fantastic. I'm afraid we're going to have to wrap it up there because we're just a little bit over time. And I think just to end at that point around, you know, the work that still needs to be done in terms of amplification of the work that is being done already and joining the dots for people, sometimes it just takes a bit of work. But, Jasmine, thank you so much. It's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your time and for the preparation for answering our questions and getting involved. I want to thank everybody else for your comments and questions. I'll catch up on some of them. There's been so many flying by, but with our next session starts in seven minutes. So you've got a little seven minute break now. Awesome. Thank you all.