 Podcasts round table round. I don't know is it 124 123 or somewhere in there's a hundred and something once you get over a hundred Like does it matter? We graduated. It's a hundred. We're fine. All right. Anyways, I don't even know what I named this one I'm so prepared today. It doesn't matter. Let's meet the round table Co-host Dave Jackson welcome back Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting comm podcasting from the original birthplace of the school of podcasting in my brother's kitchen proving That you don't need a big fancy thing to podcast. Well, that's good. I thought maybe it was like a cigar bar or a gentleman's club Say I you were just at the lowest of your life and decide I'll start a podcast It's clearly gonna rocket me to fame and it'll put me out of this pull me out of this hole I get it makes a lot of sense and that was 2004 that was 2004 speaking of og Podcasters self-described og podcaster evo welcome to your first. I think it's your first round table. Yeah It's my first round table. Thanks for inviting me to be on the show Yeah, evo Tara and yeah, I've been podcasting for forever I run a podcast consultancy called simpler media podcast launch dot pro and a bunch of other stuff. Hi Welcome, welcome to me. What is you have a podcast? I got a couple. Yeah. Yeah, I do my daily podcast Pontifications, there you go. And which is now available as an audio podcast. I'm gonna take some credit for that Yeah, you should totally take some credit for that you Gary legal and a few others like dude come on Stop just doing this thing on video Which which made perfect since the time because my clients are businesses who aren't already listening to podcast it made sense But there's enough value that people like you. Thank you, Ray Impressed upon me that I needed to make it into a podcast. So I found a way to get into my work schedule So yeah, every every Monday Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday at roughly 9 a.m Every or a mountain time the podcast is available and people can watch me record it live on on Facebook on the Facebook live at 8 o'clock in the morning on those days 10 minutes fun stuff Yeah, this audience would definitely like it and you say you're the 40th Podcaster ever. Yeah, how do you know that? Well, so for those that have been around a long time So so Dave remember the days of podcast alley and you know pre-dating our friends over at what the the Apple iTunes have been doing So podcast alley was our first directory and the podcast I was the host of called the dragon page that launched on October 14th 2004 was Had an ID number of 40 and they were just sequential numbers that were handed out. So There you go. I'm gonna say I'm gonna say 40. Very cool. All right. Well, that's definitely some og or OP original podcast Yeah, I'm done with OP And then another new round Taylor Natalie welcome. Hi, thank you for having me I'm definitely the newbie and I'm kicking out here being around you guys because I'm like I've heard you guys I watched you guys so Thanks for having me and yes, I do have my podcast It's actually in English and bilingual now. So it's financially savvy in 20 minutes for those Spanish speakers It's been a set internet in 20 minutes and Yeah, I started doing this two years ago and actually before I even lunched and did anything I started watching your round table to get all that help that I needed and just kind of oh Every mistake I've made. I'm like, I could have watched this before and then not do it It's good to do those mistake. Those are good. Those are like trial-by-fire type things. You need some scars You need you're still here. That's the key. It's the test. Thank you exactly So I'm like, okay, and and you know venturing into the the bilingual sector as well So it's definitely been an interesting journey. You record. So you record the same Episode two times two times most of what most of my interviewees speak Spanish not all of them So I have to kind of change it up a little bit on the Spanish version But it's been actually really cool the fact that a lot of them have been out of their comfort zone, too Maybe their Spanish is very minimal, but I'm like, it's okay. Most people that are listening want to Make better become better in Spanish anyway So if you sound silly, guess what it doesn't matter because they're learning to so the Spanish was the English version or the Spanish version to add on Like the Spanish the Spanish version was added after and are using better numbers in Spanish I feel like that So the Spanish my very first Spanish episode got more than any of the other and that was the most nervous one I was because I was like my my sweet flu in Spanish and English, but if you you have a funny accent I'm from El Salvador originally. So everyone has different accents and my interview is from Cuban She was Cuban and she's like, what if we sound horrible or we forget certain words Was there so many words that we the translation and business in Spanish is completely different? so I'm like, you know, let's just swing it and I we're just gonna talk about what we know and Turns out a lot of people were just like that was awesome And I'm like, I need to do more of that. So the Spanish one was actually a much bigger audience than I could imagine So yeah, especially if you look at all these articles that are showing these countries that are Spanish speaking So hoping for the best Awesome. All right. Well the the the leadoff the title that what I actually did title this episode And that's really just a I just grabbed something out of one of the articles we're gonna talk about I try to make it it's a little click-baity, but it's how do you find more listeners in 2019 That comes from an article. It's Eric Newsman. I news him. I'm sorry. That's the audible guy Yeah, you know that name. Yeah, it is. He's writing a lot of articles seems lately for Neiman lab Anyway, some good stuff coming out of What stuff he's writing and this Neiman lab blog and it's he titled the year of the DIY podcast network There was nothing really new in this article. The funny thing is I found some of the stuff to be a Refresher of the stuff we've been saying for a long time and and I like the way he said some of the stuff But it's kind of like, you know, the haves and have nots are increasing He compared to I think this was the article we're compared to the music industry where everyone started and they were really doing for The love and then it pulled apart and then you've got you know these podcast networks And you that that feature and get featured all the time to get talked about where the independent seems to get left behind Or you hear a lot of people complain. Oh, you know, I can't get I can't grow my audience because I'm not In the Apple charts. I'm not up there. I don't have a chance. I can't compete against these big networks And and he's talking about how like, you know, most of the stuff That you would get out of a network as an as an independent is probably you're probably better off not being in the network And in fact, you can sort of create the network effect by gathering with four People that are like you like you're in your niche and using basically gorilla marketing techniques Which is something what we've been talking about podcasting forever, right? It's he's talking about how do you actually grow a show? He's I had never seen any any podcast really grow from more traditional type Advertising as opposed to really getting in there and mixing it up with your audience and where they're at So again, nothing new, but I liked some of the stuff He said and he did add a quote here says in order to capture a network's interest You need to be making some money and doing doing fairly well audience wise before they even want to talk And they don't make you money. They make you more money. They don't make you famous. They make you more famous, right? So which is, you know, important. You say, oh, I don't have 50,000 downloaders to get this advertiser or be on this network And it's probably just not where you belong in the first place So I found it to be an interesting article, but you know, I don't know Eva What do you think about networks to should independent podcasters be trying to join networks? You know, this is always a common question Actually, I see a lot of podcasters starting and before they have one show they want to build a whole network. Yeah Yeah, you know going back to the beginning of this we there were no big networks at the beginning the biggest network I guess was pod show right to go to go way back in the day and yeah, yeah, everybody quit their day job and but You know, I remember when we were doing this I was doing a science fiction podcast at the time and When we found out there were other science this is back when everybody was listening to everybody else And I mean that literally we every single person knew everybody else and then as more people were coming into the fold we started making podcasting networks, so the Chuck Tamasi from from Technorama he and his friends they started friends in tech and The science fiction people that we were part of we had a studio called Draco Vista studios And we created far point media, which was a network of other science fiction shows all doing exactly what this article talks about doing is you know trying to find and A grouping of people that makes sense together that we could run cross promotions on we could have guests on other people shows back And forth and kind of build out this whole way of doing things Of course when we were doing it There wasn't much of a network effect that the network effect was very small because every show had a relatively small audience We were doing one called slice of sci-fi that got pretty popular and that was probably the biggest science fiction show at The time but I think we were pulling down on it Maybe a couple thousand downloads per episode for a monthly basis, which is you know great It was huge back in the day, but what we found was that people Just because it was all within the same genre there wasn't all that much of a network effect going on there was some there Certainly was some it's certainly good to get exposure, but with the exception of the really big guy Everybody else had a pretty small Piece to come to and you know there's a limit to how many podcasts one can listen to so I don't know too much About it from today, but it reading that article was reminiscent of the past. I'm curious you did that Did you stop doing that podcast or did it just I mean like intentionally and why The one that was doing fairly well like compared to other things in the space at that time thousands of downloads was like yeah Yeah, right. Yeah, it was it was definitely good. It was definitely great Implosion from the inside. Okay, that's what this is what caused that to go away I'm curious because it made me think what happened to the shows that were the biggest shows early on when it was You know podcast listening to podcasters I mean did I'm curious did did bigger shows did networks come in did bigger shows come in and crush these shows or did these shows? It's hard to go for so long. We're we are not what 14 15 years old So it's only go some point some of those shows made it through we got the twit network That's part of the biggest network I can think that kind of went out and but it's still I feel still feels independent in its own way It's not like a traditional media even though, you know Leo comes from traditional media. So yeah No doubt it is, you know, the the the big difference is that Networks I think then well shows that the really big show some at Shum are still going whose dog is barking in the back Just wanted to make sure somebody was doing that So, you know some of the big show some of the show just still going on like like distorted view, you know Let's take let's take Tim Jensen show, right? So he's been going forever. And by the way, that show is not safe for anyone Nobody easily offended Terrible terrible show, but it's been going for I don't know 15 years now I mean, it's just really really running and there's you know Dan class to put that show for the bitterest pills on occasion Lance Anderson's been in and out of doing stuff Rock and roll geek show Evil genius chronicles, you know, a lot of these shows are still out there running I think the reason they didn't a lot of shows eventually went away because there was it was a lot of expense of Time energy and effort without any sort of path of monetization all of the networks today And let's talk about when I say the word all so the gimlets of the world the wonderies of the world You know these other big networks that are putting things together even maximum fun They're all doing it to make money. They're all doing it so that they get enough listeners so they can track advertisers No one was attracting advertisers in 2005 people were running ads Sure, great You know you're running ads for go-to-adding to an affiliate program But no one was really running ads to speak of other than a handful of people at great radio who got lucky with it But so there's a new reason for doing it today that we just didn't have back in the day Yeah, I remember Paul Kulga and I brought up the just the topic of hey I think we can monetize these things and that's back when like people man. It's my art man. You can't what are you doing? Yeah, that was a big divide at the podcast meetup group when the monetization would come up You would split though you want to split the room man. That was talking money was one way to do it And you know, it's enjoyable. I don't think that's any different today It's not So I'm curious Natalie as a new podcaster, why did you get into it? Do you see dollar signs or why did you start a podcast? No dollars? I did not think about the dollar sign at all at least not in the beginning. That's why she's still here, right? I'm like, hey, I think it paid for this No, I actually started well I started listening to podcast and then I was being interviewed a lot by podcasters and they'd always come up with the same Hey, we need to do a follow-up or great question I advocate on financial literacy and I just hey, I recently did a TED talk So all this stuff that has thank you and I've been doing this for a long time So I was kind of like, you know, why don't I just come out with one? A lot of people keep asking me the same questions that we can't really get into the you know The other interviews and I actually come across other people that have the similar interest So I came about just to try to at least target one person that wanted that answer and the nice thing about podcasting If you're not on video or even by audio is this kind of felt was a kind of way to connect with them And so by all means it wasn't like, oh, yeah, let's make some money off of this It was just kind of like cool if someone else in the other side of the world or the other side of the country Learned something within those 20 minutes. Then that's that's just awesome for me So I didn't come about that and I most podcasters that I seek that information or help from Came from that same background. They're like, don't do it for the money Do it because you know something and you love what you do people can and I think that a lot of Listeners will get that they're like, ah, this is just the sales or you know, or this is actually they're managing to put in an ad Which is okay, but they still are knowledgeable and you could tell they love what they're talking about whether it's about horses Or it's about video games, whatever it might be. So for me, I'm like, hey I might be a geek wanting to talk about financial literacy, but hey, I'm sure there's other people like that out there and guess what there is so Yeah, that's kind of how I started out doing that. Are you in a network or no, I'm not or thought about it I have been approached. I'm still thinking about it I'm kind of like on that fence too because it's I feel like it gets sucked into this now all of a sudden you have to be part of this Community that you really got a, you know, put more information on like I'm such a not anti-social media But it takes me so much time to get that and for me. I'm like, you know, it's just a few people listening I think that's kind of maybe not the mindset for most people But I just wanted to make sure there was those people that really needed that information Available to them. So I haven't and I'm actually going about that route to kind of like see how that would really benefit to get more listeners Or just to really hopefully have get better advice from people. I mean just being on this round table I'm like, oh, yeah, here's some cool idea that I need to start implementing Because you guys have been doing this for a while. So yeah, I would say that's gonna be helpful Yeah, it was a he says in the article joining an established podcast network makes sense only when your podcast has grown beyond what you Can do for yourself. Yes, and he talks it goes on again I like the description of the gorilla marketing which again is stuff we've said to do You know for years what she says here Let's see what he say gorilla marketing is tailored to those businesses businesses who Have to find other methods to grow and build right? That's us Yeah, not necessarily gonna be featured on the front of of Podcasts and you shouldn't even that let's icing on the cake if it happens, right? I don't think it's really aimed for that and when I'm talking about talking about independent podcasters here And if you're a business, maybe there's something to go for there, right big budgets or something. I don't know but He talks about instead of investing money gorilla marketing courage you to invest your time energy imagination information And it replaces expensive efforts with high-tech high-touch efforts And then what is some of the things because it literally made me think of Dave Dave you always had always through the years always the best gorilla marketing I'd work in the library, but it's not Well a lot of times I was bored at the time I was traveling around and I'd be like, okay, I'm in a hotel and I'm like, oh look There's a you know books a million or back then it was borders or whatever and I had had all these business cards It just had my logo and you know available in Apple iTunes and here's the name and I would at the time I'd go into like the weight loss section I had a weight loss podcast and I would it was weird because I would go in which tells you how long ago So I would put them on page 44 because that's how old I was at the time And that way if I ever went back to the same place if I went to page 44, I'm like I've already been to this place All right, so and then I know I would I had CDs made with just little snippets of my show For the musicians and I would drop them off at the Guitar Center and on the CD I had I actually bought a printer that could print right on these special CDs And it was like free music marketing tips, you know, and then I had my logo in that whole line yard So just in in both those cases, it's always go where hopefully your audience is and leave a trickle now The the business card in the book thing was just I'm bored and I want to feel like I'm doing something and he says that he's never seen really You know that type of stuff make a real impact You know, it's fun. You it's not no reason not to create swag and stuff like that for your podcast But they're definitely more More effective things you can do but it doesn't mean it costs money You know, you don't have to like dump a bunch of money in advertising No, you shouldn't you didn't do that. You know, one of the things to Going back to the beginning of this again So when I was running that well, I shouldn't say running it when when we started that very early sci-fi podcasters network I mean the great thing about putting sci-fi people get the most of the sci-fi people we connected were authors And I will tell you one thing science fiction authors know how to hustle They know how to go to conventions and and take a bag of books with them and work them and sell them And by the way, they're all terribly failing at this right It's not a good deal. But man, do they know how to hustle? So yeah, they're they're printing out swag They're they're making CDs and and you know putting little labels on the stickers on and writing things around so they were big about that You know for us for that network, I think the the value wasn't necessarily in causing the show to grow I think that was more of a byproduct what it was was being connected with other Like-minded people who were just figuring this out like everybody else's we didn't have any specs We didn't have any sort of guidelines. We all had to figure out like oh, I guess if we don't use You know a 44.1 kilohertz and we use 48 instead. We all sound chip monkey. Why is that would learn all these things, right? So Everybody was learning from everybody today, you know here in Phoenix. I've just recently now that I've moved back to America I've started the I heart podcasting in Phoenix Group on Facebook and the whole reason we're doing it is to get people who are in the same geography Going out once a month and having a beer together Sponsored by I heart no no no no is that I love so not I heart People are right now. They're saying oh my gosh. You're right. You're right meet-up groups Yeah, now if you're gonna join a meet-up group, that's not the one to join don't grab don't join the clear channel meet-up Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's been a lot of fun to trying to get together just local people So it's not really a network But it is it should become a network of people who you can reach out to for advice and assistance and help more than anything else You know, it's it's a new group. We've met like I think three This is our fourth time coming up in a couple of weeks and and that's a lot of fun to see how that goes together We'll never be a true network because none of the shows are related I mean, we're just all over the place, but having that connection. I think will lead to great things I have no idea what those great things are, but I'm convinced it's worth my time to say that's the venue Welcome to the club and I'm gonna go around and introduce you to everybody else in the room once a month I think I can at least do that Well, that's it because you never know who's in the room and I have one for the Northeast Ohio Podcasters meet up and we meet the third Monday of every month and I'm gonna say We may have had ten people once usually it's like six or seven, but one of those six people got me on TV So you never know, you know, it just it just he works for the local NBC I think it is and they were doing something on podcasting. He's like, oh, I got a guy for you And he calls me. Hey, would you want to go on this TV show and talk about podcasting? And I'm like talk about podcasting I don't know. Let me think about it. So we talk about we talk about monetizing our podcast and back in 2006 when I was also going to meet a group back in Virginia I thought yeah, maybe maybe all you know, it was really just it was a passion thing, right? But at some time in the back of your mind after a couple of years So you think oh, maybe I can extract in a dollar or two out of this cover some costs or something What I didn't realize when I was building a podcast is that I was actually Building a portfolio for my skills back then again, you talked about we were figuring this out, right? So someone said, hey, do I use 44 148 what happens? I don't know. I was getting those answers because we were doing it, right? So back then I met someone who had a job where they had started a podcast and become successful enough For they needed to hire help and for the last 10 years of my life I've been a professional podcast producers and pay pay me to work a full-time job producing a podcast So yeah, those groups can be highly valuable But you know it is it's about getting out there and actually not just you know putting an ad on Facebook But you should actually probably press the flesh To meet people and I know do you have a meet-up group in your area Nali? Have you looked into that? Yeah, I was just thinking about that actually I think that's one of the reasons that has gotten me Just continue doing this because you feel less alone all of you are mentioning the same thing whether you're doing it virtually Watching someone or meeting up with a few people I actually have three people that were professional podcaster before I started mine and my producer actually was already on three other Shows and so just meeting up with them or even having those calls like you know once a month Kind of like hey, what am I you know? What should I be doing or you know? What do you about think about this person that I'm interviewing or how should I change this? That really does help and I think especially maybe because I am starting out It's so easily to just want to quit and be done with it And I've actually have a lot of friends that did the same thing that they have great content But they got too, you know stressed out or whatever it might be and they didn't really have a community or someone else to Bounce back ideas and that's really what it is. I'm in LA So there's a lot of podcasters and it turns out a lot of them like it's that maybe their authors as well Author so things like that can help to just be able to you not only bounce back ideas We just kind of say you know what did this work for you because somehow for me it was it was great So what else can I do to build on that? So I Recommend everyone to do it because you just feel less alone and starting out It's I'm still only two years into it and I still feel like I don't know a lot at all actually have the time I'm like, what am I doing? I'm just picking up the phone or my laptop and I usually record in Locations when I'm at conferences and speaking and all that so it's not necessarily that I'm at a You know in a studio per se sometimes I am and it just makes the difference where there's someone else Oh, you know what? Yeah, that happened to me I recorded nothing nothing happened out of that because maybe something you know. Oh, yeah, I'm in LA the lights Can you see? Yeah, random happens and so I think for me it's helped me out a lot where I just don't feel like you know If I sound like a goof, which I'm probably doing right now I'm okay with that because I'm just I'm just learning as I go and I think other people that are listening that are probably going through the same Doubts or thoughts or that imposter syndrome. I think that can really help them just kind of figure it out So yeah, the groups are needed whether you're doing virtually or one-on-one I'm going to meet you know Even those conference calls that you have once in a while with their friends can can make the world of a difference Yeah Yeah, I mean we're not part of a network on this show this show isn't it's just I started it and then but we are doing something a Similar concept Dave School of podcasting. He's a co-host. He has just a few people who would be interested in this show Who follow him Daniel DJ Lewis the audacity of podcast Ward winning has just a few people be interested So we band together to start it to start a show another podcast about podcasting who the heck needs that well our communities enjoy Yeah, they enjoy it So we take a slightly different approach and we just literally have the discussions about what the heck is going on in a producer Podcast producers life and how do they accept those challenges? I mean, that's why it's perfect, right? Natalie you're here. You've been here for a couple years your new evo. He's the 40th podcast, right? So having that dichotomy I think really helps the community. So and there's a classroom Sorry, it's like a classroom watching you guys. That's what I'm saying like getting your email was like, oh my god Yeah, I've been watching you guys talk about certain things that I felt like I remember right before I even launched I was kind of like well, do I just speak or do I have someone else that I'm interviewing and everyone has Their own personality that comes out in it So I always felt like oh, you know Ray does this when he talks about like it's like just be straight up And then there's Daniel they who's always really funny I always feel like everyone has their own quirks and I think that's what allowed me to figure out like okay I can play with some of those tools and it really is a classroom, you know being able to watch I started watching you guys through YouTube. So it's kind of like, okay There's people like me want to want to learn before we even launch and then sometimes while we're launching We're like, oh, I need to go back to that video because oh they talk about the specific tool I didn't even think about using so yeah, it's it's like an ongoing learning It's interesting. You say you found through YouTube or maybe you didn't find but that's where you started watching And I just met we mentioned community name. There is a chat room podcast round table comm slash live It's actually a great place to hang out. So if you're into if you're in this group, you would enjoy it And I see so much going on in that chat all the time where people were most of the time They're probably just half listening to the show and they're talking to each other, which is fantastic, right? But you know, I'm curious Evo you started off with the YouTube But you said that it was because of your audience You thought I guess was consuming that way But I'm curious if you've seen how's the traction on the audio versus the versus the YouTube to me I didn't start on YouTube. Did you make that up? The pond podcast pond. Oh, thank you. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. All right. That's okay Just really I was in the middle of trying to go and see who's talking shit about me on that live group You know, yeah tons not surprising at all. So Yeah, so I started doing it with Facebook live Only because I have been resistant to to video, you know, so yeah 40th podcast forever, but I've had a dozen that I've been the host of over time My a good friend of mine here in Phoenix named Jeff Moriarty He and I did a show called the books and beer hangout Back in 2000 and let's call it 1011 something like that where we would get on Google Hangouts much as we're doing right now And just do a he and I would talk about you know, something happening in the e-publishing world Which we both happen to be in at the time and that was really it for video with me I had done podcasting but on the radio. So it was it was fun, but I kind of I kind of lost it I didn't I didn't have much interest in continuing to do that after he and I stopped Stop doing the show. So when I started doing the Facebook live thing again It was only because I wanted something to do Google hang a Google podcast had just something was happening on that and I wanted to say something about it But I didn't feel like sitting in and writing a 5,000 word blog post which I can do but they take me You know eight to ten hours to do and I just didn't really feel like doing that So I did it on Facebook live and people said hey, that was kind of fun. Do it again So I spend a few more times doing it here and there And I was like, you know, I think I can I think I've got something that actually works And so you know did it for two months and what do I like this is it does it working? I'm setting a time in the morning I'm doing a 10-minute show because that's about as long as I want to talk about something even though I could go much much much longer I want to keep it tight and constrained to do do I like it and enough people said hey I'm really liking this and even better. I got clients out of the deal, which was the whole thing So yeah, that's how it began. But you know, here's the problem with doing Facebook live videos or even YouTube videos Man are those Numbers sexy. Oh, you had 3,519 people view your video Yeah, then you look one layer deeper and you realize that that's less than three seconds and they watched it without the sound Terrible. Well, that's worthless. That is literally worthless just to watch me what? Mouth things that's for for less than three seconds. I didn't even get the name of the show app Not good. So that's when I realized, okay This is really only good for the people who do watch it live So I wonder if I could get a few more legs under but I'm actually making and do a real podcast But you then but you put it on you too. I mean I found on YouTube with that Yeah, I would I take those videos that I I still do this today. So I take the video I said I set my phone up I got my little trusty little iPhone right here I set it up on my tripod over there and I do my show and I still use Facebook live to record the show every day not because it's a huge audience but because having The camera in front of me Changes the way I talk like I'm talking with you three fine people right here We're having a great conversation because I can see you and there's a camera in front I know someone is on the other end if I sit down and just do a monologue show Which I did I did 11 episodes of a show called Evo's cult cast back in 2006 and it was Murder it was just torture on me to do it because it was me alone Yeah, yeah, well, that's true. I guess maybe you're right I guess it there's some some symmetry there, but it just wasn't good It wasn't my normal speaking voice. You know, I'm on stage a lot I do I do a lot of public speaking. So that camera really enabled me to have oh, that's right That's the on-stage Evo. That's the Evo when he was live on a radio show or when he's got people in the room with them Not just that idiot sitting in the closet somewhere. So I still use Facebook live today I now I take the video and it goes to Well, I so I trim the edit I trim it up because you know, you know what the good 10 minutes of it That goes on Facebook my Facebook page. It also goes I put it to LinkedIn Which is where I think I got all my clients from because having that's why it's less than 10 minutes by the way is if it's on LinkedIn is native and And I also Put it up on my YouTube channel as well. So yeah, so they're always there or they eventually get there But but by far I can tell you this by far right now way more people listen to the podcast than watch any Yeah, that's what I was curious about. What's the traction? Can I chime in too? For those that are thinking about starting their podcast and they're like, I don't have any ads I don't have any anyone actually wants to give me money to do this right when you were saying that I'm having the Visual of someone seeing you speak One of my very first ones first podcast interviews that I did were just audio I didn't do any video and then I started recording just because I wanted to you know, show that behind the scenes and One of them got maybe not even 300 views on you know, the YouTube video with it But from that one I got hired to that front in thousands of dollars or two because I do presentations on financial literacy and I look back and I'm like all because I did that because I like oh Yeah, we saw your face We saw your personality as opposed to just like you just said maybe in a in a in a bathroom doing this interview or whatever So for those that are just kind of like that may come out of it and for me it has helped a lot So, yeah, you just never know where you can make money from. Yeah, a quick question on that. What was your? Fracture better phrase studio like did you have fancy lights and a green screen and no So the very first one I did have a studio. I was lucky who had a friend of mine who has this recording studio So I said, hey, let's do a first interview and just kind of go about that And so that was really cool setup used all his work and then the two after that I did well most of them the two after that were at conferences So I started saying, you know what? I'm just gonna do it if we're doing it on the way to the conference or doing a you know If I get one-on-one with like this awesome person that I've been wanting to interview And they're like, hey, let's take a ride, you know to the conference together It's like a 20-minute drive. So I started recording it through Do my phone just something simple and then also with my little zoom right doing a little backup just in case the sound is horrible And it brings that authenticity and it also I think we're both more relaxed too We're not just like, oh my gosh, am I saying this right or am I focused on the microphone right in front of my face? So Yeah, kind of going back to that it I did I've had different scenarios and I don't necessarily always have a studio It's awesome when it is so I think the quality is better But also the reality I travel a lot across the country So I have to let people know. Hey, I'm driving through, you know, Iowa State And I have four hours to kill so I might as well do some you know interviews and I can well I know for my video I used to have a bunch of pictures behind me and I'm in the process I'm gonna hang a TV behind me and that way I can put whatever I want on that screen And I wasn't gonna do any videos because right now It's just a blank wall and I now have people going oh, I want to watch your videos because I'm dying to see The background change as you slowly put things in place. It's like, let's see what Dave's done to the back wall now I'm like really I'm like, okay Because I was really I like I wasn't gonna do any because it's just a it's a beige wall It couldn't be any more boring and they're like, no, no, this is cool. Now we get to see what you're gonna do with I'm like, okay, tune in tomorrow to see the Dave's wiped all the gum off the wall. It's like It's nice. You play with it. Yeah, it's interesting to to play around, you know I mean Eva you were you're talking about how your business clients were probably linked in right so they yeah Like, you know, it is again quality versus quantity as you're talking about video I think Natalie you reminded me of something that I I have a YouTube channel and I do Various things. It's a lot of tech audio video type stuff But I recently did a couple classes at creative live and I don't know if you have check out creative live comm It's really amazing. I've been watching them since the beginning and then they invited me be on a class and I was like, are you kidding me and it was about podcasting, of course and So as I'm talking to the guy, I'm like, how why would you pick me? Like, I mean, why did you pick me now would I have a little more confidence myself than that? Why did you because and I asked the question because I'm like, there's Dave. There's Daniel There's very there's there's a few four or five of us that have been doing podcasts about podcasting for a long time We're prominent. We know what we're talking about and you can pick from any one of them Dave's in the Hall of Fame for gosh sakes, right? So it's curious. How does one pop up over the other? You know in various things and it was YouTube in this case He said hey, I saw you on YouTube. It's like I could see your presentation style I could see how you talk and how you interact with you know, in that case a video audience So, you know, you just don't know what opportunities and Dave like you're saying when you go to meet up You don't know who's gonna be there. So you definitely think about your audience and who you're talking to And try out different platforms. There's a lot of debate. Should I put my audio only on YouTube? That tends to not do so well But I mean Evo you're talking about digging one layer deeper looking at your retention stats YouTube gives you excellent retention stats and we now get those in podcasting as well For through Apple podcast. So hopefully you're connected at podcast connect There's actually a way to do that now if you didn't have your I went through a big process You can change like ownership like it used to be like if you didn't have your email Signed up for you couldn't anyways, whatever it's there. So make sure you get that straightened out That's a different episode completely but you can see your retention But you know, you can try out YouTube you can see the retention rage You can see where people fall off But definitely I think experiment with different platforms and LinkedIn sounds like it's becoming an interesting place because they shifted a little bit towards content People are saying that's sort of an underutilized space at this point and it seems to be working for you Evo Yeah, I actually have a friend that works at LinkedIn and they they're launching They've been launching a few new programs. So they're they're definitely expanding and trying to you know Like obviously Instagram tip you guys know that they came out with the IG TV, which they're competing now with YouTube So, you know, there's their LinkedIn is another one that they're trying to compete with other Types of platforms that we can use and all of you mentioned you just said it you're like, oh, why would you want me? Well chances are to their they want a little bit more diversity sometimes or they just want what your expertise is and and I think for me That's been a that's been I'll be honest with you guys That's a huge challenge for me because I'm like they look at me and they're like she doesn't look like a podcaster She doesn't you mean so at least that's what I have my doubts maybe But it was also a reminder that I'm like well, there needs to be that representation, right? Sometimes it's you know, whatever your field is or what your expertise is There needs to be that that little niche and everything So I think a lot of these platforms like you know Instagram LinkedIn Are reaching out to people that are in those in those arenas already and then trying to give some of the expertise So yeah, do the YouTube video whether you said just the screen and no audio. I mean, sorry No visual that's okay too because for me actually that's how I found you I said YouTube Because in LA we commute everywhere you drive everywhere and it's like a commute is not 20 minutes If I'm five mile radius will take me an hour easily And so, you know, sometimes I just want something different before, you know, if I don't have my phone podcast It allows me to be able to listen to other things So, you know having that extra whether it's a one or two people that actually listen to it You never know who's on the other side wanting to hire you or you know, maybe collaborate with you my advice to people that want to think about doing the the video stuff is If it You have you have two options. Well, you have three options for video option one is don't do it at all But but option the primary option is go all in. I Mean enemy get serious about it multiple cameras get a switcher do the whole crazy thing go all in or Go very minimalistic I think those are the two sides because that if halfway doesn't cut it in video You're not gonna make a big splash in video if it's halfway And if you're going minimalistic then do something like, you know If you're hosted if you're hosted with Libsyn for example, Libsyn will automatically create a video and upload it to YouTube for you And that takes zero Effort once it's actually been done or you do something like I do where I take this board And it's behind me all the time and I write down Something right I write that behind me and that's my topic and it sits down behind there And it's super easy and it's that's it, but you got to be entertaining get to be two guys being talking heads for an hour that are Emotionless and can't no one wants to watch that so either go all in or make it the Simplest thing you could possibly do just to get a handful more do not if you're out there listening That's going oh man all four of these people are saying I have to do video No, it's not what we said What I what I said I tell you all time video is the thing to do if you find yourself with too much time like if you can That you've done all the content and all the marketing you can do and you're like ah, what else could I do then? Maybe consider a video, but don't add it on then I mean this is not created they ain't the rent we got three guys and a woman like talking heads I mean at least we're smiling once in a while, but this is not there's no play here The reason we started it this way is because Google created Google hangouts on air back in like 2010 or something yeah, and we I said hey There's an easy way to literally get just anyone anywhere into and then I record the audio and it's the audio podcast That's gonna get the real retention. Although the show does pretty well for a talking head podcast It does well relative to its audience. So yeah, this is super simple I would say this is pretty easy the way we are literally using this as sort of a conduit to get in guest And it works out great. So it is the it's the low the low bar now We try to you know Dave's got a fancy Dressing room like look behind him. I was going on there But you know try to spice it up it Evo and I've got you know nice microphones You like you're in the garage man with all the tools behind well technically I am in the garage garage studio Okay, I'm gonna my garage to my studio. So that's an homage to the garage a lot of people have that in LA for sure It's the converted studio. That's right. I basically I'm in Northern California. I live in a cottage basically So I said I miss, California. There's no snow. I don't need a garage My car doesn't need to go inside like a blanket or something like that's a studio space, but anyways I want to know what Natalie. She said I didn't look like a podcaster And I want to know I want to know what does a podcaster look like? Yeah, so Well, okay, so when I started listening to podcasts in college It was kind of like my degrees are in finance in a special business. So I always, you know I I always felt left out in a lot of my classes. There was very few women in my classes let alone people of color So, um, it was kind of like there's this This this stop behind I'm also first-generation college do this and those are things that automatically you're like, okay if you don't really look like me in certain industries and Um, and I when I started listening to these podcasts, it wasn't necessarily like, oh I mean now there's podcasts on just about anything, right like oh a blog or whatever Like the beauty channels and that's not me like I hardly were make-up, you know, that's it So back then it was kind of like, oh cool. I want to learn a little bit detail on this, right and So I always I always imagined and before this was before youtube video to watch the an actual podcaster speak like seeing you guys I would think of someone that's like, oh, he's got a studio Or he's you know, maybe in his engineering firm They haven't you know an extra space where they're doing this So it's kind of like maybe it was the illusion that I thought it was this really grand You know podcast studio not necessarily a converted garage or whatever it might be So and I expected them to be much older too. So I mean it wasn't necessarily I mean I've come across podcasters. Um, some really done that really well They're like not even 18 yet and I'm like no for me. I started thinking they were much older I've always had something so for me when I feel like I I maybe thought I wasn't the only one sounding like me And let alone the bilingual aspect of it. I just kind of felt I still feel out of fish out of water No, that's the cool thing is the fact that you don't the fact that you're not an old white guy She removed herself from this panel That's what podcasting So if you don't look like a old white dude, please get into podcasting. We need you It's funny You talked about you said, I mean I think we all did the same thing. I certainly did when I started when I wrote in or was it I sent audio I might have wrote an email to my first podcast I thought my gosh these guys they sound a professional and their content was great So I figured they must be pretty big right and plus even in the in the early early days people like you're on iTunes like what that that was mistress like just that alone gave you some cachet like oh my gosh you're in itunes You must be somebody right? That's why I started podcasting. It's like how did this loser that I'm listening to get into itunes And so this loser got into itunes But you know and then they read your email back and like holy cow and then come to find out later You know you you're in your episode 93 and it's they're on their couch in their uncle's apartment. You're like wow But you know it goes to saying I mean I think that also goes That is awesome I mean the opportunity that we have right is you don't have to have a million dollar studio A little care you can sound professional and if your content's great Um first impressions are a big deal even in podcasts I mean if people flip on your podcast and if it's just terrible like if it's just mumbling and you don't know what you're Doing is it they're gone and they're probably not coming back right and I'll be honest with you guys I felt I had um very low expectations of myself not that I have low self esteem But I was like you know what if it's that one person that's been wanting to have this question answered Uh through you know this interview done with that and so it was really um Something that I kind of felt like you know what if it's not going to be the greatest You know podcast episode ever especially launching your very first one. Um, I thought hopefully I can just get better from that So I think that's kind of where I came from that mindset I'm like I will do my best that I can and if it's sucky it's I'm sure I'll get better later on or hoping And I was thinking about this the other day because they were compared because tom brady's like whatever almost 40 now And they're comparing him to some old 20 year old kid and they're kind of comparing him side by side I'm like that's not really fair because He's been playing football pro football for years and I'm like but the fun thing is so if you're if you compare yourself to Somebody's been doing podcasting for a while and you're like I can't compete with them And I'm like well they've got whatever a five-year head start on you the good news is if you start now And absorb some of the knowledge the fact that they've knocked down some trees for you By the time you get to where they are in five years and they get tired of it And they switch to a new genre because they're tired of talking about productivity or they're tired of talking about Marketing or what and they do you're going to be the new person So I was like, you know, I think a lot of people go. Oh, I can't compete with that person I'm like well, maybe not now but in five years and you can you I would think you'd be surprised how fast you can compete I am blown away when someone comes in so I see this a lot in youtube and I do Video I do DSLR type stuff and every couple years someone will come in and I'll see this kid I call them a kid because they're probably half my age and They just put out videos like every other day They're high quality and within within months They're at the sony event They've been invited because they've got attention like it doesn't take much except just get in there and kick butt You will be surprised I mean if your stuff is good, you will bubble to that top really quick and you'll be a peer I mean again I call Dave my digital mentor a podcast mentor. I listened to Dave I a famous story about me getting in trouble at work or like written up because I wouldn't stop listening to Dave My one ear, but like you can't do that. I said I don't care I'm gonna get out of this place And you know now we're co-hosts. I mean and it doesn't take you know, it's been a long time But very quickly, you know Dave will you bubble up in my show and Dave all of a sudden mentions like hey Check out the podcast or studio and there you are you're rubbing elbows with the people you've been following It's not as hard as you think it seems Like something is way out of reach and I would say that it's not if you're willing to just go after it And and like Dave said a minute ago, right? He's got one foot in the grave. Yeah You know step up who's next? It's true. I think that's what it is. It becomes like this um the dream realized where Um, I just recently got a chance to interview godfrey. I'm like a big uh, oh, yeah Yeah, danipana. And so for me it's kind of like Or you just say it being able to to be able to talk to the people you've admired and learned so much from That's like, oh, that's the ultimate. Like hey, you know what? I have a podcast. Can I interview you and I think that's something I think for me that's the biggest um reward that comes from that because you're kind of like wow I get an actual one-on-one with you because I know the questions I'm going to ask you I know everybody else is thinking the same thing. So it kind of yeah comes from that too Well, and after talking to you, I'm definitely going to go buy risetta stone and learn spanish Do it Even if you think you're horrible Actually, um, because that's what I always thought, you know, I I grew up in LA But everybody has their own accents and the very first thought that I'm like, you know, if I really do this in spanish I actually convinced one of my, you know friends good friends to do it with me Um, I said, you know what? I'm sure we're going to get a lot of criticism on our spanish being horrible or english or vice versa Whatever it might be um, but at the end of the day I told him like I met two other people that that they're Spanish is their fourth language and I had no idea I heard them speak spanish and I go there Spanish is really great and then after the conversation He's like, oh, yeah, I'm indian. Um, I'm just learning this for my to be able to speak better with my employees And I'm like hold on He's not afraid to look a little silly or you know, or say something wrong that I shouldn't have an issue with that Either and I go turns out everybody just wants to learn another language somehow sometimes So even if it's learning one or two words a day, um, and might as well learn something, you know out of it So yeah, go ahead and start taking them classes Yeah, and I you know, I would think even harder than starting and catching up or being considered A peer pulling right up alongside another show you admire in your same niche is Once you get there like staying there, you're like, ah, you sort of hit this goal And then guess what you need to do it consistently over and over and over That's the hardest part. It's not getting there. It's hanging on And then like they in the USA like Those other people drop off. I mean it is amazing the number of podcasts about podcasting that have come and gone While we've had podcasts about podcasting, right Dave. I mean podcast about podcasting.com is a small list That I've assembled a lot of packs So really again, it's all about drive and and just get in there like now that you're saying and like I think you do what's the saying about like 90 of it is just showing up I mean really it is just do the thing when you're on the internet. You gotta just ignore the criticism You'll get more oftentimes more love than criticism It's hard to not ignore that one piece of criticism You'll dwell on it But if you're doing it you you are you're pretty successful if you're consistently doing it You'll you'll be great because you care about it. That's the key if again We don't coming back to full circle if you didn't get into it for just the money Which you'll leave quick because you'll find out oh All these things that you have to achieve that we're talking about take a lot of time and anyway All right. Well, we've gone full round table here where we we have thoroughly not covered any topic outside of the first one And we barely covered it So the key here is we are literally having what I developed the show was like imagine if we were around a campfire And we just had the same interest and we were talking. That's what we've done here So I'm enjoying that but let's try to get to at least Another article and Natalie you have one here that I was interested in because I think the supplies to everyone and we probably all have our personal thoughts about it and it was uh The how do you explain to your family what you do? Um, so in with evo, you know being op. Yes evo tell us what What the heck did you say you were making money? Well, maybe you weren't making money Well, did you wait? When did you start making money from? Did you ever make money from your podcast like livable money? I So I tell the story my money in podcasting didn't come Directly right that I didn't make me with I'm gonna be because of podcast Yes, right when I when I was asked to write podcasting for dummies back in 2005, you know, that was That was like, ah, there we go They'll they'll pay me a lot of money to write that that book with the yellow and black cover on it, right? Then they they said would you write podcasting practice or I'm sorry Would you write a second book called expert podcasting practices for dummies which is arguably the worst book title ever So I said yes for a lot more money. I would write that book too. So we we got to do that Uh, so that's how that became, you know, and and I because of my podcast I've gotten to do paid speaking against Speaking gigs and other other aspects lots of clients come from but I've never actually been paid For my own podcast I mean, I'm paid by my clients who pay me to help them get their podcast out But my podcast never was a revenue Generator even when I was running, uh, I used to run a network called pottyo books.com Some of the watchers and listeners might might remember we were we had about 750 audio books that were mostly recorded by the author themselves and then release as a podcast We was getting like 2 million downloads every single month That was across our network 2 million downloads per for the for the whole thing and that was awesome And I think we got I don't know six ad deals over over time, you know And uh, so so relatively relatively small. So no my my I'm a firm believer in that You can make money because of your podcast way easier than you can make money directly from your podcast So how did you so I guess Natalie? What is the core of this article? Like what are they saying? Because I'm curious how everyone sort of explains especially I like the article because it kind of gives you a little guide of how to explain it to your parents And I'm interested here. It will like how did you explain it to your like for me? It's like my immediate family I still don't explain it to be honest with you It's hard to your life What I the best way I explain it like give me your phone. Let me let me download the app for you Just kind of go through that, you know concept And for most of my family too, it's like the language barrier is another issue too My dad now listens at first. He's like, what is this? And he's one of those people that shows no Excitement not because he does it. He's not excited. It's just he has no idea what I'm talking about So the article just kind of goes through like, okay explain what a podcast is literally show them the app If that helps or download it for them, you know Subscribe to a couple of your favorite podcasts to help them just or something that you know, they would like But I'm interested how you really explain it to your you know, maybe family or friends Um, or maybe even potential clients on like what it is that you talk about during your podcast instead of sounding like Oh, you have another podcast like how do you explain that? Um, you know Well, I find I mean this time of year as we go to new year's eve parties or holiday gatherings and you meet strangers And the the question is always what do you do right in this one? What do you do? You know what I tell people I do audio and video production. I rarely it depends on who I'm talking about. I rarely tell them um Podcast that I produce podcast because it just Well, I'll be honest with you back when I started doing that 10 years ago. It felt a little Like you'd get a side eye like people thought that that was me playing around almost like saying I'm a youtuber people don't take you seriously like no, I'm at a I'm with grown-ups, right? And they're like, well, I'm a lawyer and you're like, yeah, I I do youtube be like, no, that's not and it's changed content production online has definitely changed but Um, there is a little bit There was a little bit for me a little bit of the amateur hour feeling that steve jobs moniker that he gave us Although it wasn't as bad as I think he was saying but anyways Um, but now I I do tell people audio video production because it does have a still has a little bit more cache But it definitely lands people say oh I get it there and actually they perk up But depending on who that person is if I know that they're the type or I say do you listen to podcasts? I say, yeah, I'm like, well actually, you know, I specialize in podcast production something like that but um, Dave you work for a podcast company and pretty much have been a podcaster forever Yeah, when people ask you what do you do Dave? Well, I I think what the mistake we make is we start explaining what it does and not what it is So and like if I would see somebody who's who's older I might say it's on demand radio, but that's a podcast. What about when they say, what do you do? What do I do? I do tech report. Yeah, you do see so you don't even yeah Why do you say is it just to avoid having to explain it or was there ever that feeling of ah feels a little It feels a little like I'm toying around in my basement type thing Uh, no because they're like, oh you still teaching I go. Yeah, it's just in a different capacity I go I now do I do one-on-one consulting teaching Via email and I go really for what and they're like and then the fun thing is I say libson and they go what and it's libsync wait the Liber Libercation one liberate you're a libertarian. No, it's libson And it's and then I'll just go it's tech support and I go. Oh, okay. That makes sense Most people don't say I'm a podcaster though But I mean most people can't most people can't say they're a podcaster for the profession, right? Yeah, because then the the It's always like oh, I'm a I'm a content producer and then the you know Aunt Mildred comes over and goes you're making any money at that. You're like, oh, here we go You're like you're like an actress in Hollywood being being your eye. Yeah Where do you weigh tables right? That's that's the question, you know for me I'm I'm I am the weird sheep of the family. So um my Both of my parents Were they worked for the government their entire lives and retired from the government My grandfather worked for the government his entire career and retired from that My sister went to college and went to dental school and becomes a dental hygienist and has done that forever I've got two other sisters that are both nurses actually have three half sisters Which means I have one and a half sisters because I can reduce fractions Um, but with me they've never understood What I've done in any of the jobs that that I have had You know I've done a lot of various weird things So my it's the easiest for my family because they have no idea and they're used to me not having any idea Well, I send them all copies of podcasts and redummies and they said I still don't know what the hell it is So that's fine. I don't get that but I've nowadays since I'm running my own Podcast firm where I'm doing strategic podcast consulting for businesses. Mostly. I don't say any of that I will see if the video works on this. Here's what I tell people when I meet them Can you see that? Oh, I like that. Yeah As high a little card. Yeah, it says hi. I'm evo. I launch podcasts And so when somebody asked me like just we were at New Year's Eve party over playing games with some friends And they had some people we didn't know so we're sitting there on a table You know, how do you know gary mendy? How do you blah blah blah then then so what do you do comes to me? And I said I launch podcasts and the lady said Oh I'm surprised the reaction was oh, hey, how do I get new noteworthy? Yeah, yeah watch out and this is not helpful because like for me that's like the Like cool cool to be able to say I do this full time through podcasting would be cool for me It's just another outlet, right? So for me, I'm always like yeah, I'm a bilingual speaker that interviews people That's the only way I can explain it to at least my friends and family that maybe aren't big You know listen to podcasts So it's helpful to hear that you guys are obviously talking about What you're expert in within podcasting and it allows you to sound not so um, it's kind of like when you hear people To say oh, I'm an influencer. I'm like really are you serious about like what is that? I'm a digital I was like I'm a digital nomad Sounds cool. I don't know what it means, but exactly. I'm like are you really getting paid for that? Yeah, so it's helpful to hear kind of like, okay There's there's a way that I can word it and I like that card. I do even I'm gonna use something like that. I like that Very helpful at work at work my title is actually media specialist doesn't say anything about podcasts because back 10 years ago They just we made it up There was no like there was no podcast producer It wasn't a job and it's funny because I see that job posting now and I talk to people all the time I say hey if you're podcasting you're you're the go-to people You know what you're doing You know you might be able to do this for an organization But podcast producer does not mean what I What I'm saying these days it's all if you want to be a podcast producer and you take one of those jobs online It means you're going to uh, you have to know how to put together a story and then like market It's all the npr storytelling types. All right Producer is a very different job than I've been using it for podcasts in the last eight years But what's cool is it is podcasting has become A job and there are more positions. I've seen I see opening up space But you know it is always like a totality usually any creative job is usually a totality of the things you do Right, so maybe you do some writing you do some speaking you have a product and you usually put that together So I think as a I think it's just a hard question as a creative right explaining to family Or even giving it a title or something like that. So my favorite was uh this summer I came over having a family picnic and I walk in and my cousin because you know That's what families do you make fun of each other and they're like, oh, there's mr. Hall of Fame And I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever and she goes, okay I'm gonna say it and I go. Oh, this ought to be good one. She goes What the heck's a podcast and I go and I go all right I go do you have an iPhone and she goes yeah, I go, okay Come here and then my other cousin goes wait. I got an iPhone and then I was wait Okay, hold on and like five people ran over that like like nobody wanted to ask me all these years. Okay So once it was like, you know, and I think if we all did that if we all took 10 minutes To show here's how you subscribe to a podcast and I'll go tell somebody sure That's really what we need in 2019. But but let me let me tell you this Let me share this story with you. So as I mentioned, I've got and my monitor just went dark on me So you're getting the no, there we are So my sister Then hygienist not the most technical savvy person on the planet My mother could not have had two different children had she tried Something in the 14 years between us went went haywire with her um So she comes up to me. We're at a bounce house so that her kids and the other kids are all playing around and she says so Tell me what you do with this podcasting And so I thought oh, this is an engine up. So we talked about it And I got about I don't know two words into it. She said, you know, I've been I've started listening to a podcast And I'm just blown away. She pulls out her phone And she shows me this podcast that she's actually listening to so I and she you know Went right into the phone went to the app and listened and here's last So It's working and I I didn't do it Well, like I'm calling her up on a regular basis exploring this tour explaining it to her It's the fact that people who don't who historically didn't get it Are getting it because it's becoming ubiquitous and that's awesome. That's great. I love living in, you know We're we're at in 2019 now Now it's probably a great time to change it to like on demand media. We shouldn't call a podcast No, no, I think I think netcasting has anyone brought up Before sounds like a great idea. Yeah, actually some twit right up that We do love you, I think some of us do We do I like the inside baseball Yes, very inside baseball if you're still watching let's let's face it like you get the joke I mean you're still watching listening an hour later to a podcast. Yeah, you got my quit your day job joke You got my twit. Yeah, okay. We're good. I'm running out Dude putting out that og on display Well, I mean Natalie if you have to run, I know you Did have a limited time so always feel free to say goodbye. Thank you in case you in case you see me bounce out But I appreciate it. If we want to try to do one more story. We might as well Who has who has the most interesting story on here? I'm curious Um Evo I didn't do one of your stories. We should do each of the guest stories So Evo you got the year in podcast. You always have something to say. So what's this about? Yeah, let me let me go only pull that article up there. So You know like the tyranny of choice was the takeaway you took you had here Well, so there's this there's this listing up here and it's on financial times financial times Website and I'm seeing a lot more podcasting articles about podcasting. So Uh about podcast in in weird spots, right weird spot. Yeah You know, I mean, I remember when the when the newspapers picked it up and you know You get occasionally at a local spot here and there But yeah, not financial times was talking about it other sorts of magazines and newspapers that don't typically report In on media this particular way are looking at podcasting and it's and it's always fun to read those articles because you know Someone got assigned this article and you can tell if they really didn't want to do it You know, there's just really really bad ones out there and in this one isn't that I'm not saying that But what I found notable about this one is it's you know the year in podcast never have our ears been so spoiled for choice and my big takeaway from it is there are 16 podcasts on this list 16 podcasts this writer for the financial times has said Wow, it's amazing and then it's a it's a very nice easy to read articles So if you're looking for content suggestions, I recommend reading it But what I thought would be fun to do here is I just want to go through a a yes or no With the panelists here So i'm going to start at the top and tell me if you not enough you know about this, but Did you or are you or do you listen to these podcasts? But I I know you'll recognize many of them. So the first one is dr Death from wondering how many people here listen to dr death No, no, I did I've got one. How about a button called west cork? Wait, is this listen to one episode or no, no, no listen to the episode. They like a sub lesson Yeah, did you actually subscribe to death and I'm the only one. Okay west cork No, never heard of it. Nope Atlanta monster. No, no I listened to a couple of episodes and it wasn't for me Dirty john No, I've heard of it. No, I've just heard of it. Yeah, I listened to that one. Um last scene No, nobody cereal heard of it One listener, okay only because i'm in cleveland and they did a whole episode on or whole season My wife my wife listened to all of the dirt of serials and it was she loves him a lot. Okay, so there's now we have three front burner No, no There's a show called explained by vox Today explained it's one of the new daily shows I have listened and it's in my pod catcher, but I don't listen that much. Okay. Got it. Okay. So that's so that's four Uh today in focus by the guardian No, no, okay I've heard um, maybe one, but I haven't subscribed. So no, all right. All right. So let's do the the bbc's beyond today No, no slow burn by slate No, okay. That's I actually listened to several episodes of that one. I and it's still in there. I just I haven't got to it again Um, there's one called. Oh, is it okay for us to say bad words on the show? You already put us a split So that's what's called. Fuck you very much That was a very interesting title. No, I didn't my dad wrote a porno I've heard of it, but never heard you guys have to listen. It's amazing. It is amazing I've heard it's really good. I have you and I listened to it together when we're in the car driving around But now we're fully caught up and so it's amazing. I saw a movie. So that's seven. That's coming out again Yeah, personal best Nope and no feeling is final. Okay. So that was 16 We had six not bad but that was kind of split across and and I think me more so than others because I've Because of what I'm doing right now and I have to kind of examine a lot of different things especially for For the new show. So my takeaway from this is There is that much content out there here here are things people are recommending to a whole new group No one on this panel I guess possibly with the exception of you Natalie You're probably the only one who is more likely to be quoted in the financial time since that what's your stuff is all about But this is what's being broadcast of financial time. So here's a whole bunch of shows that we Don't know a lot about some of which are very popular. Sure. We know about cereal. We've all heard of dirty john You've probably heard of Atlanta monster, but we're not currently consuming them The idea that there is this mainstream And there is a mainstream that are mainstream to podcast But I think that stream has gotten so darn wide. It's much more like the mississippi river If not an ocean, I think there's so much content out there, which is going to make it and here's kind of the point It's going to make it really hard for blockbusters to happen in the coming years Because there's just so much content and so much Really good content sturgeon's law applies 99 of everything is crap But that 1 of the 650,000 podcasts this year a million by the end of 2019 probably if it continues to go on the same Cycle it's going right now That's a lot one percent of a million is a lot of shows for really really good content that no one's going to be able to to stay on top of and that's Wild and great all at the same time. It's just kind of fun. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious What is The inability to have a is that good or bad? How do you see the the lack of a blockbuster? I don't know that I would use that dichotomy I I see there's some the the positives. Well, let's do the negatives first, right? So if there's not a big blockbuster, then it's hard to get people talking about one sort of thing And I get cereal is is our blockbuster, right? No, no. Yeah, cereal is definitely the blockbuster We've had a few others But I think that's okay because I think well you can have blockbusters within certain niches like there will totally be a true crime Blockbuster again, there'll be a lot of true crime blockbusters But if you're not a true crime listener, you don't really care. This is not the movies You know, I don't only go watch science fiction movies as much as I like to watch science fiction I'll watch anything that's a good movie We probably many people go watch all the Oscars even though it's not the genre they watch That's not going to happen if it ever happened. It's certainly not going to happen in podcast And we don't need you we're not a tv show or a movie where if it doesn't do well We don't get it again I saw I saw a clip of Paulie shore on the Joe Rogan show and he was he was lamenting the fact that he Is he's not an actor anymore. He doesn't get movies and he's like well This movie didn't do good and then that movie didn't do good and then I just I'm out of the business, right? Right, right. We don't need that Um, and I do think you know cereal was nice for the conversation It might have brought in people who were never exposed about guess your sister may have come in through that route Who knows right, right? But you know, Dave is a hall of famer in something most people don't know anything about right his own family Yeah, I would love to be a hall of famer in something. No one knows I was hoping I was going to get like a discounted the grocery store or something and just nothing Get nothing. I don't care nothing chinio Yeah, so I don't know you guys. I mean Natalie. Do you think um The do you think do you like to see? I don't know. Do you think we need this podcasting need a blockbuster? Did we need a cereal every year? No, you know, like I guess the the benefit of it is and yeah, you're right We're gonna have a lot more people creating more content, right, but I think it'll be I see it as being a positive in the sense where We're creating stuff that we want people to listen to because they're interested in the same things We are maybe or they're trying to learn something that you know, maybe we can give them that a little help or push towards It's kind of like when you look back at youtube or some other platforms that when they started I was like, oh, if you were in the first ones, you're awesome. You're you're you're gonna be most likely a big star, right? Now it's so saturated. There's so many people It's kind of hard to get but unless you type in exactly what you're looking for Then you might get that one thing that you're looking for and I think that's that's where I see Podcasting is going and I think there's another article similar to that where I like how they you just gave a 16 podcast And I'm like, I've heard of two or three of those that you mentioned. I haven't listened to all of them But I see more and more articles like that that are in totally different industries And they're recommending all these new different podcasts. I've never heard of So I think it kind of gives everyone a little light but granted you have to give a bad down to the hall of famers Because they've obviously worked hard and they've been doing this for a very long time. So I think The positive fact is that we're going to have so many different industries that are created and and probably they're they're going to be pitching Their top 16 is depending on what you're you know, what your industry is I'm spot-ified just recently did this program last summer where they launched it to help women of color Podcasters and they didn't expect it to have they had over 18,000 People apply for this program in new york and they were maybe hoping a thousand or so So, you know, all of a sudden you see people creating their content regardless whether they got into this program or not Right. So I think the cool thing is that we will see A lot more and maybe too much that we can't even handle and listen to but I see that as a good thing because you know, I think there needs to be a A lot more diversity in those type of industry. So I don't think so I think it'll stare away from having those top serials and and the ones that do, you know, get those Great recognitions. I mean, that's something that like still looked forward to like, okay Let's let's go back in here away, you know, what has even been doing since day one from his first podcast to the ultimate You know, it's where he is now. So I think that's helpful for people not just starting out just trying to learn more about podcasting Well, and they're kind of blockbusters, but it's it sounds weird It's a small blockbuster like I was talking with Lee Silverstein who does we have cancer And I was talking with Hailey Radke who does adoptees on and those are two groups You only know what it's like to have cancer if you have cancer and you only know what it's like to be an You know a person of adoption And and in Hailey's case, these are people that are actually going out And trying to find their parents and in some cases they find them and get rejected again And I was like, oh wow only the people that have gone through that understand that So when you find a kind of neat show like that or you find Lee with we have cancer That's a blockbuster to the person that has cancer because it's like this is the show they need at this time So but that show is never going to have you know a gazillion downloads. Hopefully not because that means everybody has cancer But yeah, yeah, I do have one one possible negative to think about this if in fact my Made up prediction that I just did with the movie blockbusters The potential bad for that is there are Certain production companies out there right now Who are investing lots and lots and lots of money? charging clients lots and lots and lots of money On spec as we say in the in the writing business in the hopes that It is it makes its money back It's not uncommon for highly produced 10 episode shows to cost upwards of half a million dollars When you listen to 20 000 hertz and the guys say they spend 125 hours On average on each episode 125 man hours On each episode They need some sort of a financial payoff on the backside blockbuster movies rely on ticket sales and merchandising and other sorts of licensing to make all their money back If there is no blockbuster opportunity or much limited blockbuster opportunity We'll see less bets At least we'll see less bets with the assumption that that's how the money gets paid back in the good part of that is Look, nobody knew about merchandising until george lucas made star wars, right? And then suddenly we've got opportunities there So if there is a lack of this blockbuster mentality because they can't sell ads against having 150 million downloads every day They've got to find another way to do that which which I guess is exciting Although the danger is that the that really good content may may go away Yeah, I think on the last round I asked if if we were better off if podcasting sort of just sort of failed and I think and I mean that these you know You get a blockbuster They put they put a hundred million dollars behind it and and it fails and then money doesn't come back into the space and They give up on it, right? This happens a lot Actually, people create podcasts within 10 episodes. It doesn't work. They say it failed Right. They say that that didn't work but um, you know, and is this bad excuse me is this bad for podcasting and I you know, there's never a concern from I think most of the people Who are watching and are participating in this round table truly independent? Um Content creators we will never hit a level where we're worried about money being pulled out Um, and we do it for different reasons and even if that reason is money We're not reliant on a on a big system that it has the opportunity You know if the big ads don't come if we don't get brand it doesn't matter We won't kind of get those anyways, right that yeah, so it does have a bad pr stance You know, I am curious from from a listener perspective Our blockbusters gateway drugs to podcasting, right? So I think I heard that cereal, although hugely popular Didn't really move the needle so much in podcast listening. How many more podcasts? Did people who found cereal become power podcast listeners after that? Did they jump off or did they just listen to cereal cereal went away and so did they right? So I'm curious does do blockbusters actually bring us new audience? um I would say in that case. I don't remember that many true crime podcasts Until cereal and I know it started a true crime podcast, but are people and you know, you know what people are listening I guess for hey guys. I have I hate that. I have to bounce Natalie You have to someone in the chat asking for the name of your Spanish language either one It's been us at all financial you put in financially savvy in 20 minutes financed Intelligent and make them and it just literally it's a translation and Spanish will come up and it so financially savvy in 20 minutes And the website's financially savvy in 20 minutes.com And all my social media handles financially savvy latina. So I could send you all that info too. Cool. It'll be linked. Yep Yeah, perfect. And thank you guys for having me. Thanks for joining us a surreal experience and trust me I'm walking away with like so I'm like, I gotta do that. I gotta do this So I'd love to chime in and tell you guys where I am a year from today. I'll be back Once around table or always around table. Oh, I thank you Thanks, and we'll wrap up here, but Dave Yeah, so we were kind of going back and forth and saying and saying that What were we saying you're saying? Well, we were saying a lot of shows were created But I guess they're created for a reason. There was an audience all of a sudden right for true crime Yeah, and I I know um, I helped somebody launch a true crime. She's actually a Private investigator and she was getting some really nice numbers. So there are people Listening to true crime stuff. So and that might have been the fact that's A genre we certainly saw this space sees Bursts of genre right at the beginning it was tech. Um, then there was the the comedians authors And when I went to pod con I had no I don't listen to fiction Uh, you know, so the welcome to night veils and and uh, and I was it was like I felt like Dorothy in black and white and open up the door and there's this I mean literally it looked like a bon Jovi concert There's like I don't know 1500 people in this giant room And these people get announced to come on stage and it's like the Beatles and I'm like I've never heard of any of these people But they had a really huge huge genre And you know the green brothers are going crazy And and that's when you had to get a wristband To see if you could be one of the 300 people to wait in line to do a meet and greet And I'm like that's a whole new level of fame in podcasting. So Yeah, I think there are these little bubbles that that We kind of just listen to what we listen to And that's what it's kind of fun is when you you poke your head in another genre and you're like, wait, what? Because Robert Sprieker always talks about I mean we need to grow the listeners, right? I mean there's enough content and if we're not growing The listeners and we need to spread into other niches other Areas of the globe there's all there's a lot of potential but you know, and I'm curious so I'm curious It would be nice. I think obviously I don't think I think blockbusters are a good thing for that reason Just for exposure alone. We know they're gonna get it, right? They're gonna get in the media if you're big They're not gonna you we're not gonna get in the media with a show that is successful But to a niche but like evo what you're saying You're seeing You know, I guess it really the blockbusters in their own niche pop up in the niche media, right? So financial times not very niche, but it does have a Group that they're speaking to exactly right. Yeah, there's they're speaking to probably I mean Well, like I said on this morning's podcast pontifications to plug myself If you walk up to a group of strangers today and mention the word podcasting Three out of four of them are not listening. Yeah That's the number three out of four people don't listen to podcasts So it's possible that big blockbusters when they come up will get Those three people who aren't interested because it sounds like an interesting concept and they can listen to audio They get that they can go listen. That's a great way to be exposed That to get to grow if not all of podcasting at least that one individual niche. So I I think that's I think it's Potentially dangerous that there may not be as big blockbusters, but if we do make blockbusters with in a niche then yeah, because You know right now, so Dave you just had that experience At pod con, you know, which is like going to any other con any con comic con dragon con those sorts of things I was in sci-fi for a long time. That's exactly what that world is like but Romance writers Huge and there's very few in the podcasting space right now just just to think of one right So there are lots of other bubbles which could Bring themselves into the podcasting world which would bring a whole bunch of new people Would they stay within that genre? Maybe I don't care, but at least they're into it and that's a good thing Dave I had I was something I had a good thought and then I was reading the chat, which is It is hard to do both things You never read the comments I know the comments Yeah, I actually have had good experience on youtube at least youtube specific, but um Yeah, I'm also again white male like you always get the comments You know it's I can imagine it's very hard to be you hear youtube as this sort of wasteland Of comments, but hey at least you get comments. I mean Try getting comments on a podcast show notes page Yeah, yeah, good luck. Do we even I mean Anyways, I won't bring up a whole discussion. No, let's not do this I'm talking about that on monday's No, you didn't you just talked about website versus podcast right or that podcast is probably better than your website Yeah, something the podcast is better for for a website, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so All right. Well, we'll start to wrap it up and uh, okay. Bye. We got to you see out here That would work for this show Again, no one's listening as soon as I said those words by the way I made a mistake there, right? I've cued the audience that they can just bail now. That's it So if I go look at apple podcast charge Yeah, it's nose dive. We could say anything we want at this point, right? And salt everyone that tuned in that's usually what I do How's that working out? No, I don't know Dave white Rob pissed off at me. I know why he's pissed off at me, but whatever Well, we can hash it out. Maybe live on a round table. Yeah, that'd be Hi, Dave co-hosts. Thanks for your high-paid Duties being Yeah, thanks for having me ray. I'm Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting find me at school of podcasting.com And evo, where should this audience find? Oh my goodness. Well, this audience should all be listening to podcast Pontifications.com I would agree. I mean that's a five ten minutes, man It also you can even say hey that lady that's in the little tube You could say her name and say add podcast pontifications to my flash briefing You can get the show that way, too So you can listen in your shower, which is what ray does But apparently evo has a I this is why I'm taking the cameras out of my house Evos hacking them and see what I'm doing the morning. Uh, you have a short format show Yeah, how's that? Do you think compared to you know, I mean we always talk about Actually there was an article in our lineup the winning get to and it was the how long should a podcast be in it It almost seems like a dumb question But um, I love that question as short as you can possibly make it is right answer. That's right So, I mean, do you What do you think about the 10 minute verses? You know, there's always discussion that long format does well and people don't want to have to choose again every 10 minutes But things with like flash briefing even though no one's listening on them yet I mean, I I chose a short format as I mentioned earlier because that's what fit on linkedin native video That was my initial thought Um, had I had I the option to do it all over again on and I guess I do Um, I would probably make it even shorter. I would probably go towards the the five minute Number, but that works because it's a daily. Yeah, it's more often, right? I mean, you can't it's very hard to get traction for a five or a 10 minute show I think yes, if you're only doing it on a weekly basis. It can't happen It can absolutely happen and then you on fogarty's quick and dirty tips network is is You know a shining example of that, right? But I think today with the media consumption continuing to increase and the people are wanting more content Short format works really really well. Everybody should strive to be shorter than you are today I think but it works for me because also there's a frequency angle that that that works out But it's probably a little bit too long for flash briefings, but nonetheless, it still works All right. All right. Well before we start a whole new roundtable over again We will we will take off but podcasters roundtable dot com slash guest if you want to sign up Potentially be on the roundtable if you sign up, you'll eventually be on the roundtable But there are people right now who are saying yeah, yeah, Ray. I've been on that list for years I'm sorry. So you should bug me again if you're still listening. You're the type that would so Let me know you're out there never hurts to send an email if you get Because you have to be on the email list to sign up to get the sheet to put you on the list Blah blah blah you'll see the announcement and you'll say hey actually want to talk about that We don't do topics anymore. We do news. So it's very easy to join You just bring a story you want to talk about we won't get to it. So you don't have to worry about it We cover we'll cover one story and then we'll just blab for an hour That's a format that doesn't exist anymore. Although. I hear there's a new blab alternative. All right See this is when I know to leave when it just keep rambling. Oh, you get punchy. It's time to go It's time to go. All right. See you next time wave. Goodbye everybody. Cheers Where's the stop button