 Welcome back it's still the breakfast and plus if you have care we have a very interesting conversation ahead of course must really introduce in a tease this morning the Nigerian Merple Association is urged to federal government of Nigeria to ensure the payment of a newly approved hazard allowance to its members within the next two months this is contained in a communique issued at the end of the Association's August National Executive Council meeting on Sunday in Gombe. The communique which was made available to the news agency of Nigeria of course copy of which we have in Abuja was signed by the NMA president Dr. Uche Ojima and the Secretary General Dr. Jirei Oinyekwelu. The Association further resolved to continue the engagement using every lawful means to ensure the payment of the set allowance a group set that it observed the slow progress made towards the implementation of the new hazard allowance and the attempt to exclude doctors in ministries, departments and agencies and those in basic medical for faculties and universities. It also said it had observed that some state governments have always shied away from complying with an upward review of salaries and allowances to doctors in state service. We're glad to say joining us discuss this all important issue of staff welfare in the health sector. Professor Ken Ozilo who is the immediate past president of the Medical and Dental Consultants Association of Nigeria and we also have the immediate former president of National Association of Resident Doctors with us. We'll try and get the full details his name later. I'm sorry about that mix up. Gentlemen we would like to say a good morning and welcome to you. I'll start with Prof. Prof please for those who do not know just so we can just start with the enlightenment what is a hazard allowance. Number two what was the former of the previous hazard allowance and what is a new hazard allowance? Okay thank you very much. Good morning once more. The thing to understand is that you know the salary structure in the health sector generally you know is divided into your basic salary and other allowances okay. The hazard allowance is one of those allowances that is meant to compensate for the risks and dangers faced by medical personnel in this case in the course of the discharge of their duties. You agree with me that you know in the course of treating patients medical personnel do get exposed to certain risks such as infectious diseases. I mean we all know the case of Ebola and then the heroic doctor at Daredevil who pay the supreme price to try to help the country contain this danger so it is in that time context is one of those allowance that was meant to upset that. Now I haven't said that in the past but before the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 the hazard allowance had been a class 60,000 naira per year which translates to about 5,000 naira per month for every worker. Now in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 it became obvious that the issue of the risks you know exposed that health workers are exposed to is indeed great and it was in recognition of this that government took the step to increase the hazard allowance. Now for two or three months or so government paid 50% of the basic salary as hazard to all the health workers and this was meant to encourage the workers as it were in their response to the pandemic. Now it was after this that government went into negotiation with the associations and unions in the health sector with a view to increasing the hazard because it became very potent and clear to all that a flat rate of 5,000 was simply not anywhere near adequate in compensating for the dangers the workers are exposed to. Now the negotiations on the new hazard allowance lasted a very long time but I think that sometime in December last year a new rate was approved. Let me seem to add that I was privileged to be part of the negotiations at some point as then president of the medical and dental consultancy association of Nigeria and in conjunction with the NMA the NARD other unions in the health sector it was extremely difficult to arrive at a new proposal in terms of new rates okay and to the best of my knowledge the demands of the NARD or of the NMA let me say were not met and neither that of the other unions but sometime in December last year a government came up with new rates. It is interesting to note that the NARD had actually opposed or kicked against the new rates because it was something that still fell far short of what was demanded by the NMA and other health workers but you know government went ahead anyway and brought this out. It is therefore a little bit ironic that at this point in time eight months down the line or thereabouts were still in a position where even that which was actually awarded by government has not been kept true by the same government. Okay so let's also ask Dr. Kane right there are you with us unfortunately we probably have lost connection well but my concern would be I mean just the issue that you have raised the fact that on the one hand government had agreed to or had said we're going to increase the hazard allowance and then on the other hand they're also saying that we will not we're going to face out you know payment of hazard allowance to doctors and what of you I mean what could really be you know the issue now this irony you say one thing you say another thing what exactly do you think might be the issue? Well I have observed in the past you know from the benefit of my exposure to the workings of government and its agencies that there is a certain level of disconnects you know between the agents of government such that often times you have one arm speaking in one voice and a different arm speaking in a different voice I do not think that this is good for any system and I do not think that it feels a confidence within the system. However what I would say is that I am aware that there's a circular with text that government has approved a new hazard allowance which I just spoke about I think that is commendable you know on the one hand but I also think that government should follow up you know by implementing that which it has approved. I am aware also that there are some it's been muted in some government quarters again of a plan to scrap the hazard allowance and all that I have to the best of my knowledge I have not seen any circular to that effect so what I think is existing or what is extant is the circular that we have and I would rather prefer to approach it from that angle. All right we will have to profusely apologize to Dr. Nebu is a John Uchiku who is a former president of the National Association of Resident Doctors. We didn't put out his name that wasn't a professional of us we sincerely apologize. So Dr. Uchiku are you there with us please do we still have you sir? Good morning and good morning to viewers. Yes yes and I would be present please Nigerian Association of Resident Doctors. Okay no more National Association of Resident Doctors. Thank you very much. Yeah thank you very much for that update and what what would you say to Professor position or his information to us that the NERD opposed this new hazard allowance? Exactly Prof has led the background to the negotiation that led to the increment in the hazard allowance. Previously as he said it was 60,000 Naira per annum which became a flat rate of 5000 Naira. Over time that agreement was in 2009 and then that agreement was also meant to be renegotiated after a period of time probably about three four years. Government has consistently shied away from that renegotiation or just as Prof said with the advent of the pandemic of COVID-19 it became obvious that that 5000 Naira is no more than able then all the health workers including the NERD under the auspices of our mother association Nigeria Medical Association went into that negotiation. Our position remained that hazard allowance should be increased by 50% of our basic salary. However you know negotiation is a gift and thank. Government had their own position we have our own position and when they came out with their own position if all fast shots below our own negotiation our own point of request and we actually as Prof said opposed it. However subsequently NMS said yes NERD we know you oppose in it but we can get this as a starting point and continue the negotiation and on that basis we agreed let's government not be let government not use the excuse that NERD opposed it and hide under that excuse and will not be able to implement what has been agreed with them and for the past one year we've been able to say okay pay the rate you've agreed why the negotiation continues which government has failed to pay. I would quickly want to add that we have a government that's been insensitive to the plight of workers in Nigeria not just doctors as which has been on strike for some months now so the working force is a completely and overtly neglected by government to with preference to the political class all in the name of political correctness. Hazard allowance beyond the issue of being exposed to some unwarranted infectious diseases while working in the hospital it also covers you for the period that you are not on duty and they just call you by 1 a.m that there is a patient on an emergency that you need to attend to and you have to burn your well leave your family within the wee hours of the night to go to the hospital to attend to this patient you're exposing yourself to hazard you're exposing yourself to insecurity so imagine a 5000 NERD compared to the over 5 million NERD there will be requiring of you if you happen to be kidnapped we are saying this has been unfair increase this hazard allowance and give an incentive is an encouragement is an incentive allow us is an incentive to boost workers a moral to remain in the country and keep working is one of the the factors that would hopefully prevent the brain drain that we are currently facing but if government is playing with it that is why we are having more doctors travel aside this country on daily basis three doctors are living in Nigeria on daily basis three doctors are living Nigeria or more than that all right so we feel at this point in time government should implement this agreement and if they are saying on one hand they are having an agreement with health workers and then on the other hand they are saying that they want to scrap it I think is political correctness that would not work because from our own point of view neither NERD nor NUMA is going to accept such such a political correct statement from government if they are saying they are not going to pay hazard then that means also they themselves should not also be receiving some allowances that they are entitled to I think it's high time we begin to question some of the allowances at the government corners these are the few things I want to add to what professors already said all right um let's get back to professor Ken Professor Ken are you still with us yes I can hear you clearly all right so I'd like to share your thoughts on this I mean we're moving deeper because I'm still within you know the medical uh practitioners or you know the sector as it is uh what would you say are your thoughts on the alternative bill uh that's the alternative medicine bill that's being proposed by the government we know that the uh Nigerian medical association has actually found that it very you know um profusely but but I'd like to share your thoughts on that well um I think that world over different um societies and different civilizations have developed their own indigenous local medical practice which some of which have been you know tested over the years and um some found to some level to be efficacious but but more to more to the point I think is the issue of acceptance by the people um that be the case I think those things some of them have been codified and regulated and um to varying degrees incorporated into the contemporary medical practice uh examples are bound from places like especially China India and um yeah places like that the story has not so far been as successful in Nigeria largely because of the difficulty or inability to standardize and codify the practice of alternate alternative medicine in Nigeria um indeed there is no doubt that orthodox medicine has its limitations and there is no doubt that it can be complimented I give you an example in China for instance um acupuncture is an established practice not just you know even in some western society okay it is an established um uh practice okay but like I said the practice is codified and standardized our experience in Nigeria has been that um there's minimal standardization with the effects that you know people um come up and make claims as to what they can achieve and what cannot be achieved there are no clear cut boundaries of where the orthodox ends and where the alternative starts and I think that in as much as it is good to have that sense that this is our practice this is what is indigenous to us this is what is ours we should also not in the name of that endanger uh our people to risks because from the point of view of orthodox practice I will tell you that um I've experienced I have a large amount of experience of complications resulting from badly managed cases um which usually start from you know this poorly standardized and poorly regulated alternative practice invariably ending up in a very bad situation in the uh conventional orthodox practice so I would like to look at it in that light I will not totally throw it away but I think that it's a great need for standardization and codification and that should proceed it in cooperation but just a quick one now just quickly I really don't know if you've actually seen the component of that bill but for the argument that the NMA has actually raised is that part of the components would be in conflict with the statutory functions of the medical dental council of Nigeria and you are an immediate past president of you know that association so I'm asking do you really think that this is a good idea okay first of all a quick correction there's a difference between the medical and dental council of Nigeria that regulates medical practice and the medical and dental consultants association of Nigeria put out past president uh so I think to the best of my knowledge the medical and dental council has the overall responsibility of regulating all medical practices in Nigeria and so if any new bill is coming up to um or that is in conflict with some of the um power of the responsibilities it already has I think that will be an issue but I think this is something that can be for the um enlightening I mean clarified by the medical and dental council of Nigeria okay doc doc before we go uh finally regarding the issue of um new hazard allowance the the the NARD had given had given an ultimatum uh to the to the federal government some time ago regarding this particular issue do you foresee um the NARD um you know kind of this threat to go on the strike you know following this uh two week ultimatum do you foresee the NARD going on the strike of course you know that this will cripple the health sector in the country looking at the uh the role the resident doctor has played thank you so much about permit me to briefly speak uh Lero on the uh traditional alternative medicine and complementary bill uh still going on the position of NME uh first of all I just like Prof has stated I would like to say that the medical and dental practitioners have had empowered um medical and dental council to regulate the practice of medicine as well as alternative and complementary medicine I would also want to add quickly that uh if you look at medicine we have the traditional medicine we have alternative and complementary medicine then we have the orthodox medicine which we call the modern medicine now every as every medicine practice all over the world is traditional in origin now while the orthodox medicine has been modernized standardized with international uniformity that is what makes a globally accepted practice the traditional medicine is still local we practice within a locality without any standard the standards are varied now alternative and complementary medicine falls in between is being standardized within a nationality within a nation and that is why it has gone beyond traditional medicine and has got into what should be regulated by the nation's own medical council regulatory council because it is still is a partial international accepted level it has a standard but that standard is still practiced within a nation now the motor and the cross of the matter where NME comes in is that we have a medical and dental council empowered by medical and dental practitioners are to regulate alternative medicine why are you creating another bill we without carrying the medical profession along in developing in developing this bill unfortunately enough this bill came from the federal ministry of health at the initial stage of proposing and this bill discussion on this bill they excluded the commissioners of health they excluded NME and when this bill came for public charity they excluded NME also in fact we had about this bill on the day that the public hearing was taking place so imagine what is happening this but you smuggle a bill into the senate you do a public hearing without involving all stakeholders and you don't want to enforce the bill in the country so what we are saying is that it is it is going if this bill becomes passed it's going to encourage quackery it's going to defeat all standardization of medical practice in the country it is going to all right Dr. Gochiko and Yabua say apologies because of time we will have to pull the plugs on the conversation all right so we want to thank and so it is just to add on to what prop has already said fantastic right uh presently a discussion is still ongoing with the government and then NME lead in that discussion and we believe who want to believe who want to agree that government is going to respond and make this payment within this time that we have given them but if they don't do that payment to be honest with you I cannot guarantee the decision the neck of the NROD will take and whatever decision the neck of NROD will take that decision will be to protect the welfare of the doctors and then to protect the health system in general and that decision will be to proceed on the strike all right thank you sir uh uh Dr. Yabua on Yabua say Gochiko join yes on Yabua is a general Gochiko is uh past president of the Nigerian association of resident doctors as they're now known and Professor Ken Ozilo is immediate past president of medical and dental consultants association of Nigeria uh we thank you gentlemen for joining us on the program this morning thank you all right we have a discussion up next of course um uh a second major conversation on the program tonight looking at the issues in the african democratic congress and of course um we'll have some guests to guests uh standing by for that conversation please stay with us