 Good morning, everyone, and my name is Claire Baker, I'm the convener of the Economy, Fair Work Committee. So welcome to this morning's event as part of the Festival of Politics 2021 that we're doing in partnership with the Parliament's Think Tank Scotland's Futures Forum. This morning's panel is titled How Will a Just Transition Effect Me? We are delighted that so many people have joined us online and have been opportunity for me to take questions later in the session. We're also very pleased to offer BSL interpretation for this morning's event and I look forward to your questions and comments. So this morning we're going to consider what is a Just Transition and how will it affect each of us from where we work to how much we earn, where we go on holiday and what we consume. How will Scotland's move to a next zero and globally competitive and sustainable economy affect you? And how will we avoid a repeat of the 1980s mass unemployment when market forces and a transition to de-industrialisation destroyed so many of our communities across Scotland? This panel aims to address these questions in the next 60 minutes or so and I look forward to your involvement. We are delighted that you're able to join us and when it comes to the question part, if you can put your questions in the event chat function and introduce yourself and let me know where you're based today, I will then be able to take your questions. I'm very pleased to be joined by our three panellists this morning. Dr Punam Malik, who is an entrepreneur academic business strategy leader and an investor in innovation and she is also head of investments at the University of Strathclyde. Professor Jim Ski, who is co-chair of the working group three of the intergovernmental panel on climate change and is also a chair of the Just Transition Commission in Scotland and councillor Angus Miller, who is chair of Environment, Sustainability and Carbon Reduction Committee at Glasgow City Council. As I said, there will be a chance for questions towards the initial comments from all our panellists and if you would like to make a contribution, put it in the question and answer box and if you give me your name and where you're based this morning, I'll get to as many as possible. However, I would like to begin by asking an initial question of each of our three panellists. We are familiar with terms such as a green recovery and no one being left behind and doughnut economics is now commonplace. What exactly is a Just Transition Commission? I noticed this morning that the trade unions and newspapers talked about the need for the Government to take radical action on green job creation and raised concerns that there is perhaps not enough detail on what a Just Transition actually means for Scotland. If I can ask the panellists to give their definitions and I'll come to Dr Malik, first of all, Professor Ski, then councillor Miller. Thank you. Thank you, Claire. Good morning, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. Lovely Saturday morning and I hope you are looking forward to this interesting discussion. As you said, Claire, yes, Just Transition and green recovery, we are all hearing about it, but there is also a little bit of a puzzle or lack of clarity sometimes in people's mind and if we could just break it down simply into terminology, for example. So as I see it, eventually it's an outcome. We want to achieve it for the society, for the community, for the public and our citizens. But it's also a process about how we do it, how we achieve that end goal where a transition to net zero is just and why by that I mean that it's fair, it's inclusive and it's taking people along on a journey where we achieve the target where our carbon emissions are net zero, but it's done in partnership, in collaboration with people so that certain communities, certain marginalized societies and businesses that have to make this change, this drastic change in their processes, in their practices is not in a unjust way to certain people. They don't suffer as you mentioned industrialization or 1980s time. Similarly, now there is a challenge about the energy sector or different sections of the society and what we are wanting at this stage from the government point of view, from the business leaders and academia and politicians all come together to say, let's plan this. And obviously Jim is going to come and talk about the wonderful commission and the plan report that is being there. But I think the critical point at this stage in everybody's mind is that how are we going to adopt it, implement it, and then monitor and say that the delivery was actually done towards that, what was said that we will do. And I'm sure we'll talk more on this. Thank you very much, Dr Malik. Professor Ski, could you maybe respond to the question? I noticed that Ross Boye, who is STUC General Secretary this morning, as it stands, Scotland's not on track to achieve a just transition. I know you're chair of the commission, so would you want to talk a bit about how we do get on track? Yeah, yeah. And I think Poonam has actually set it up really nicely by talking about both outcomes and the process. So when we were doing the work of the Just Transition Commission, first of all, there is no widely agreed definition of just transition anywhere in the world. We've got principles, but we don't have a precise definition. But for us on the commission, basically it was about looking on the bright side as well, looking about the opportunities that come from moving to net zero by 2045. Net zero of Scotland in 2045 is going to look a bit different from Scotland now. And it's about looking for the opportunities that come from that. But where there are burdens and there are costs to be borne, it's to make sure that these are distributed fairly. And it doesn't fall unfairly on particular groups of people, depending on the kind of jobs they do, or where they live, or the kind of lives they live. So the fairness thing is right at the heart of it. And one other thing that I would flag up, we probably identify, no society is perfect in terms of justice at the moment. And there are injustices in Scotland already, things like one tenure, fair work, which the STUC will be very concerned about, and energy poverty. And the Just Transition is an opportunity to deal with existing injustices as well as think about things in the future. If I might, just on the process side, I could quarrel a little with the title of the festival panel, actually. How will a Just Transition affect me? Because it makes citizens sounds very passive. And as though the Just Transition is something that's cooked up in government offices in Edinburgh. And that should not be the case. That's exactly how a Just Transition shouldn't work. It should, as Poonam says, involve engagement with people. And the Just Transition Commission made lots of recommendations about how to make this a properly bottom up and owned process, not something that's done top down. And the STUC position, completely agree, we are not on track at the moment. And that's why we need a Just Transition Minister, which we have now, and a Just Transition Commission to scrutinise what the Scottish Government does just to make sure that we stay in the right direction. But it's at the start of a journey, and we have absolutely not ticked all the boxes on this shit. Freely admit that. Thank you. And Councillor Miller? Thanks very much. I think in Scottish politics, often when we talk about Just Transition, people assume that as a byphrase for the northeast of Scotland because of the particular challenges that we have there around the oil and gas sector. And of course that is very much a warranted focus on that particular industry. But Just Transition is something that applies to all of our communities in all parts of Scotland. And as a city councillor for Glasgow, it's something that we are absolutely trying to put at the heart of the message and the plans that we have around the goals that we as a city have for net zero. Fundamentally, it's about recognising the link between social and climate justice and the fact that both of them go hand in hand. And that in pursuit of net zero and in Glasgow, our city targets for 2030, we need to ensure that all of our communities are included in that and are actively engaged in that. One thing that we often talk about in Glasgow, as a city councillor, is the fact that it was in Glasgow keen that James Watt conceived the idea for a separate condenser for the steam engine, which effectively revolutionised that technology and paved the way for the industrial revolution. And it's kind of not lost in me that it's only just up the Clyde a few miles along the SCC that delegates will be gathering to discuss the future of climate action globally. But of course we know that that industrial revolution left a huge legacy, a deeply damaging legacy for Glasgow, one that's been generational in terms of the impact of poverty, inequality, health inequalities too. And that's absolutely an experience that we cannot afford to repeat. So planning at this stage for that just transition and ensuring that all of the action that we take on climate action is tailored both to the communities that are least able to adapt, have the least resources to make choices, for example, that we're requiring people to make in order to move to a more sustainable way of life. And also including people and communities within the design of those very strategies, those very plans from net zero. It's very important, I think, as Professor Ski said, it's incredibly important that it's not something that's done to people, just transition, it needs to be something that we're giving people ownership over and communities ownership over. And I think cities and other local authorities in the Scottish Government or whatever bodies need to ensure that they're actively co-designing and collaborating with communities and giving them that sense of ownership over this whole agenda, otherwise it will become something that, unfortunately, is done to people rather than with them. Okay, thank you. I am happy to take questions now. People want to put questions into the I can pick those up and put them to the panel. But I'm going to start with those referring again to Angus's response. Angus represents Glasgow and I represent the Scotland and Fife. Fife is an area that had huge deindustrialisation with the closure of the mines and we had a history of mining villages in this area, where there are areas in Fife that are still living with the legacy and the social challenges that came along with the closures and the way in which that was managed. Professor Ski, do you want to talk a bit about where, in terms of a just transition within Scotland, how do we prevent regional inequalities exacerbating in other areas? I know that the north-east has already been mentioned, other areas that are set to benefit or how do we make sure that there is an equal transition? Yeah, and just to say, Claire, the very first meeting of the Just Transition Commission took place at the Coalfield Regeneration Trust in Concardin because we wanted to take a careful look backwards at how unjust transitions take place and we learned a lot from going to that meeting. So for me, the three big ticket items, the trouble is just transitions like the Heineken policy area gets absolutely everywhere around the system. But just to give you good priorities, I think Angus has mentioned it already, the north-east is an issue because of the dependence on oil and gas there. So that's one of the big challenges is the energy supply sector and where it goes and whether the jobs that have once been in oil and gas can move into other parts of the energy sector, particularly offshore renewables, but potentially also carbon capture and storage and hydrogen for the longer term. So these possibilities are there and the first ever Just Transition plan, sectoral plan for Scotland will be in the energy sector because of the priority that's attached to that. But when we did the Just Transition report, we really wanted to expand the scope of it. So I think the other area is housing and buildings actually where there's a very, very big need, you know, Scotland's buildings rather are pretty leaky in terms of heat. And there's an awful lot that needs to be done in terms of improving buildings, insulating the moving to heat pumps agenda, which is coming up as well. And that's a triple win area because you can get emissions down, you can address energy poverty and you can create more skilled employment given the kind of, you know, the deeper changes that will be needed to housing. And then the other area I would actually pick out is rural areas and the highlands. We do need to look at the question of land use and agriculture, you know, which is important in Scotland as well. Recommendations are to plant more trees, but there's also issues around, you know, protecting and getting recovery of peak bogs and things like that. So these will be important. These would be the three big ticket items for me. There's more, but these are the three easiest, I think, to get over quickly. Thank you. And Dr Malik, do you have any views on this in terms of any regional inequalities that you can see, where the challenges that we have in Scotland will be? Thank you for that, Kair. And I agree with the three areas that Jim has picked up. And in that, if I could just add, I would also say that while, and we need to look out and look for the risks, it's also an opportunity because there are certain areas, for example, Scotland has a wealth of natural resources. And that is where we could look at it, that certain regional areas which hadn't been looked at, so nature based solutions, and they are going to emerge for that, and the areas that are rich in those, they will benefit. And in that case, what we need to look at it is also not a simply challenge or something to worry about. It is something to balance with what assets we have, make maximum utilization of it, showcasing it on the world stage, the innovation that we have. So that we look positively towards that and move forward to say what we can make better use of, what are our assets, and how do we attract international investors, international funding into this area, so that we can mitigate those risks and manage our natural assets and solutions that are there. Some of the areas where I see Jim mentioned housing. So that is a challenging area because Scotland's target is if we are going to achieve net zero by 2045 at that rate, every three seconds a building and a house has to be renovated to make, and recently just day before yesterday on the TV, the announcement was for the grants for heat pumps. Now that a renovation of a house to move from the current system, it requires between 6000 and 18000. Now if I look for a particular sector, a retired people, old people who are living, would they really want to at this stage invest that much into renewing their sort of renovating their house, somebody who's in their 80s and 90s, how long they are looking at. So that is the good to look at it. Thank you, Dr. Miller. I had a little bit problem with your connection there, but I think we heard your contribution. Councillor Miller, you represent the Glasgow city and you spoke a wee bit about the action that Glasgow has taken. What kind of communication and discussion are there between local authorities? Is this mainly done through COSLA, or is there a dialogue around how the different authorities will approach this, and is there co-operative working across the authorities? I think that is a very good question. Obviously, there is discussion at a national level via COSLA on the different strands of action that local authorities can take and are within local authorities' powers. There is co-ordination at that level. The experience that we are having in Glasgow, and one that is a fairly new experience over the past five, six, seven years or so, is really looking at a regional level approach to much of that. We as a city have fairly tightly drawn boundaries for historic reasons, but we know that we are the centre of Scotland's only metropolitan region, with 1.2 million people or something like that. The city of Glasgow itself only has 600,000. We know that we need to collaborate and co-operate with other local authorities within our local area. Much of the action that has been taken is at that level. We are currently developing a regional economic strategy leading on that for the city region, for example, which will have just transition as a central theme. It is important that we have that buy-in and co-operation, but there is probably more that could be done to foster collaboration and sharing of best practice. We have tried internationally to see how other cities and areas across the world are responding to all of those challenges. We are working to build relationships with cities that are going on the same journey that we are. It would be interesting to see what the appetite is for greater collaboration between different cities in Scotland, for example. We have that through the Scottish cities lines and other fora, but there is potentially more that could be done as we start to get into the implementation phase. We have a question from Arlene. She says that most Government businesses are focusing on net zero targets, but should there be a higher focus on carbon negative targets, particularly in order to reduce emissions? We have talked about Scotland as a target of 2045 for net zero, but should there be a higher focus on carbon negative targets? There is life beyond 2045, although at least for some of us. By the time you get to that point, you may well be looking at every country that has reached net zero moving on to get to negative emissions, to compensate for other parts of the world where there are still emissions in place. Even when you get to 2045, there is still a need to pull carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, because there are some sectors that will continue to emit greenhouse gases in 2045, and they need to be compensated for by the removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Looking at the Committee on Climate Change's guidance on what 2045 might look like in Scotland, and there are different ways you can tell the story, there would still be emissions left from agriculture, mainly because of methane rather than carbon dioxide, which is also greenhouse gas. If people continue to fly, it is very difficult to make a flying carbon negative, and that would need to be compensated for by the more nature-based solutions that Poonam was talking about, which in Scotland essentially would be planting trees and probably better management of peat bogs. That was what it came down to. That is what the picture would look like. Even before 2045, we need to start looking at carbon dioxide removal technologies, which might indeed be scaled up beyond 2045. Dr Malik, in relation to that question, do you think that the net zero target is the easier for people to understand what it is we are trying to achieve, but where does the carbon negative agenda come into that? Thank you, Claire, for that. As Jim said, hopefully what we are aiming for is life after 2045, where if we have met our targets, we are net zero, but the population keeps increasing, and new ways of evolving. Fifty years ago, we would not have thought, or a hundred years ago, we would not have thought that we will be in this situation, so we are preparing for what we know today. We do not know what is around the corner, and environment is not within anybody's control. Humans and animals and living beings on the planet do contribute to it, but that is why it is called nature, because there are natural changes that can happen, and sometimes it is the result of human activity, and sometimes it is beyond our capacity. It is the question of, as Jim was taking an example of nature-based solutions, but it sets our target. We are targeting for something that we know and want to balance, but it is to be ambitious and using science-based targets, so utilizing what is available, what is known to us, and monitoring at the same level, and probably not being as reckless as has happened, because sometimes we say that we are in this situation because we drop the ball. We became ambitious with our growth, with our energy usage, with our consumption, and if we become, I mean taking the example of doughnut economy, we are talking of green recovery, because we used too much of the planet, something that was not ours to take, we took, which is why at the same time, when we are moving towards 2045, and we are saying that let's make it neutral, but in what about offsetting something that we don't even know is happening, or naturally changing, as Jim was talking about the methane production, or there are various other changes that might happen, so to balance those, we need to also have innovation going, which will be providing solutions for that, but the science-based methods that are monitoring, reporting, and changing, for that we need to set that ambition higher, so that we are definitely needing beyond that life, and not only making it easier, I agree with Arlene that we need to be thinking about our ambition for negative, so that we can offset for any unexpected changes. Thank you, and then Councillor Miller, would you want to respond to Arlene's question? You are in a situation because you are the elected member who is on the panel this morning, and every four or five years we all face election. How do you jump views on how you get some continuity and on-going commitment, regardless of who is running an administration? I suppose to respond to Arlene first of all, I think it can be confusing for the public, and following on from what Dr Malick was saying, I think it can be confusing for the public when we talk about net zero to communicate what that means and what we are actually looking to achieve. I think the question is a good one in the sense that perhaps it would be worthwhile for us to stop talking solely about net zero and start seeing it as two sizes of an equation, so one is reducing our carbon emissions and greenhouse gas emissions as far as possible. We know that there will always need to be some residual emissions, as Jimmie outlined, and the other side of the equation is carbon sequestration and capture and those nature-based solutions. Of course, when we talk about net zero, that is about balancing that equation, but there is nothing to say that we cannot go beyond that. Cities, by their very nature, by their density, have been able to move a little bit quicker than the country as a whole, and that is why cities such as Glasgow and Edinburgh, for example, have 20-30 targets, because the density of them allows them to move at pace. Between 2006 and 2018 and Glasgow, the carbon emissions of the city have dropped by about 41 per cent. Those are, of course, the low-hanging fruit, and now we have significantly harder work to do. That shows the relative pace. There is nothing to stop us from continuing that journey and to try to promote that agenda beyond. On your question about the continuity, I think that one of the key things is ensuring that there is a sense of political leadership across the spectrum. Historically, climate action until fairly recently was seen as the preserve of Canadian parties globally. Many different parties from across political spectrum would be rather uncharitable and would often pay lip service to it. In recent years, we have seen a real emerging consensus about the urgency and the scale and pace of change that is required. Continuing to develop that consensus will allow us to ensure that there is continuity, depending on what political party is empowered in any given level of government. It is worth saying that, certainly in Glasgow, our recent climate plan sets out how the cities want to get to net zero by 2030. We have received unanimous and consensual support from across political parties represented in the council. Having that kind of political leadership and consensus building is very important, but it is sometimes easier said than done. We have a question from Gary. He is asking what work has been done to assess the most vulnerable groups and communities who will be impacted by a transition to a net zero economy? What can government, both at national and local level, do to incentivise community groups to create new assets such as local energy hubs? Can we go to Professor Stee, first of all? My microphone was not off at the start, Professor Stee. Yes, I can see that they are just being muted now. They will not try to censor me. It was a really good point, because it was a point that we very much picked up on the Just Transition Commission phase 1. The evidence that we had available for that work was very, very limited, and a lot of it was quite anecdotal. We obviously know that people who completely depend on electricity rather than gas for heating or paying more at the moment were concerned about people in rural communities and the general question of income inequalities. For that reason, one of the recommendations that we made to the Scottish Government that they have said they have accepted completely is that we need to do much better monitoring of the way in which the kind of climate change policies are affecting specific groups of people. We are looking at working with consumer agencies in Scotland to develop indicators that would help us understand better what the impact of policies are on particular groups. Not only to do that in the rear view mirror, but to anticipate when new policies are coming in that Just Transition principles and the question of equity and fairness are built into the policies right from the beginning. I cannot claim that that is a problem that has been solved, but it is a really good question and it is absolutely on the agenda for the new Minister, Richard Lochhead, and the Just Transition Commission as it goes into its next phase. Thank you. I am afraid that I seem to have lost Dr Malik, but hopefully we will have her back in the discussion soon. Councillor Miller, will you be able to respond to Gary's question? You are still here, Dr Malik. I will let Angus answer first, and I will come back to you. You talked earlier about the importance of community engagement and involvement. Can you respond to Gary's question? What can we do to incentivise community groups to create new assets and use local energy hubs as an example? What can we do if we are trying to empower communities to take action? How can we incentivise them to support that? Thanks for that. One of the main things that we need to do is ensure that there is support for capacity building and that we have the structures and resources in place to allow communities to take ownership and leadership. Too often, when we talk about community empowerment, there is a sense of communities being able to step in to move things forward, but we need the support structures and resources in place to allow them to get going on that. I think that resources are the number one thing for me. Often, community empowerment, because we are the level of government that is closest to communities, falls on us. There are financial challenges that affect all levels of government. We need national resource that is focused on building capacity within communities so that local organisations can develop and grow iteratively. One thing is that, if you were to take that proposition to the city or to communities and say who wants to start up an energy co-operative or whatever, a lot of people would walk at the idea that they would not see that as being a route for them because they would see it as being challenging and they would not know where to begin. I suppose that having community action and building capacity iteratively over time so that groups are able to go in new directions and take on new projects and develop organically with the support of their local community is key. You need the seed funding and the resources that are beginning to support that and then the capacity building resource to help develop organisations and local communities through that journey. Dr Malik, are you still in the discussion? Yes, I am here. I think that we do have a problem with that. I can hear you. If you could respond to Gary's question. Maybe we are still living through a pandemic and many communities are struggling with the effects of that and most of our voluntary sector and community activity is still geared towards that. How do we support people in the just transition, the net zero journey, when at the moment they are overburdened by the impact of the pandemic? Yes, thank you Claire. If you can still hear me okay, I would like to say that there is a lot of intelligence in saying that if we want to go fast, we need to walk alone. If we want to go far, we need to go together and that is the key here that as pandemic has shown that unfortunately it was the marginalised society, society is already living under the burden of low-income poverty or diverse sector groups that they have lost a lot of jobs, women, diverse ethnic minority groups and it is not that anything is targeted. It just so happens to be and similarly that is exactly the point we need to look at it that when we are expecting society or a community to make change into their habits, asking them as I was talking about they use electricity which is expensive and people have to make choices if they are earning below a certain wage or even living wage, whether to eat feed the children or to use heat the houses. In that case, what is the solution that we are offering if we are expecting our citizens and our communities to come along with that? So for the government level, there has to be a policy in place which is what we are here that there is a framework and policy, but then what grant support is available, what is messages communicated to the community so that they think that they are a party to it as initially we started with him saying rather than being done to them, are they feeling powered and wanting to change voluntarily but think that it's a choice that I can make as a citizen and I am part of that change because I'm contributing towards a bigger and a better world but where my voice is heard. So in that engagement is required, efforts from policymakers are required and then it's the question of businesses to develop those innovative solutions which are not bank breaking, which are not at the cost of eating food or heating the houses. And in that case, I would say education and communication, working in partnership with the people and collaboration are the key point, otherwise change when it is done to people is never resulting in that. So we have learned a lot from pandemic, people already are feeling the brunt of it. So that's why this question of green recovery when we are talking about recovery, that it is a healthy recovery for the society, happy recovery for the society, but the additional word green is because we are not going back to the usual good old ways. And as we know fast food is cheaper, there are cheaper flights, but what is the result if we are trying to people to make choices where they go for a locally made food or fly or travel in the regional areas, even with electric vehicles or take buses, then we need to make sure that regionally those solutions are available. Somebody, I know Angus was talking about that Glasgow and Edinburgh can put faster targets because there is a better transport system, possibly there are more ports for electric vehicles. What about people who are living far away want to make those choices but have no solutions available? And that is where the responsibility of government and the community organisation and councillors and business come to join together and provide that alternative so that people can make informed choices. Thank you, Dr Malik. I'm keen to receive other questions from the audience. If you'd like to put them in the Q&A, I'll put the questions to the panel. I talked about political consensus earlier. The comments are from about the need for public engagement, because you need broad social consensus as well as the political consensus. I'm about to change to an electric car. I don't expect to get a gold medal for doing that, but I've been quite surprised that the people who have said to me have given me negative reasons about it, making me think about doing the right thing. They haven't brought into it. They're not convinced that that is the right way to go. If they were arguing that I should be using public transport, but they're actually arguing that I should be sticking to a petrol car, how do we increase the public consensus and awareness of the personal impact, as well as the differences that we expect to come from corporations and from government? How do we go to Professor Ski first, as you, the chair of the traffic transitions commission, and how do we build a broad social consensus? Just to say, my sister's just brought an electric car as well, so I know people who move her. It's very interesting that one of the more social science observations, when you get a new trend like electric vehicles coming through society, there are the early adopters who pick it up and demonstrate that there are advantages. An electric car will be cheaper to run initially. It's obviously cost you money, but it's going to be cheaper to run. There are all sorts of other things, like the acceleration on electric cars is rather nice as well if you're into the Jeremy Clarkson bit of the vehicle side. When early adopters pick it up and they talk to friends, they talk to relatives, they talk to colleagues, I think that's when you spread these messages organically that it runs through. It will become increasingly difficult to acquire petrol-driven vehicles, and electric vehicles become the new normal by a social process rather than top-down, I think is important. On the broader point, on the Just Transition Commission report, we placed a huge amount of emphasis on the question of public engagement. The fact that this is not a top-down process, it cannot be a top-down process, otherwise it won't have consent. We picked up on positive examples, like the Citizens Assembly that was run and that reported about the same time as we did earlier this year. That was very positive, as people see climate change up close, as it were. It tends to get them engaged behind the topic and get there, so education and these processes will be important. The other thing, just going back to the last question, it's not an area I'm expert in, so I'll confess that, but we placed a huge amount of emphasis on the question of local authorities and community-level engagement, because they're closer to people than the national government in Edinburgh or in Glasgow. That, I think, is really important. One thing in general to flag, and it's more about resourcing, if we compare ourselves not only in Scotland but in the rest of the UK as well with other parts of Europe, for example, local authorities here enjoy less autonomy than in many other parts of Europe. They're reliant on money coming down from the national level. That has implications for cutting off resources, making things difficult. I hope this is music, Tangus' ears, but we really need to pay a lot more attention to the financing at the local authority and community level, so that people have the autonomy and the ability to take action in a positive and constructive kind of way. Thank you. I'll come to Councillor Miller next. Gary is also asking about what are some of the examples of behavioural change, not technology, but individual change that needs to come from citizens. I've managed electric cars, but I recognise that I'm in a position where I can afford to make that switch. That's not the position that lots of people are in. Where do you think behavioural change needs to happen? What are the challenges that you see in Glasgow and where do we need to shift people's behaviour? I think that the discussion around electric cars is a perfect one. Even if we were to replace every car that runs on fossil fuels with an electric vehicle, that would still be significant carbon outlay. It still wouldn't get us to where we need to be in terms of net zero. We need people to be making fewer car journeys full stop. Moving to cleaner technology is, of course, absolutely vital and welcome, but we need people to be pursuing active travel, and we need people to have access to affordable and good-quality public transport, so that the way that people move around the city or around the country can change as well. Of course, I appreciate the discussion that is quite different in a city context than the more rural areas. Dr Malick was reflecting on the particular challenges around mobility in those areas, for example. In a city like Glasgow, we need people to choose new modes of transport. Some of the things that we need to do to get to that space is to make sure that the infrastructure is there and to have active travel infrastructure. Absolutely. The Scottish Government's commitment to invest in active travel is very welcome. That will enable us to encourage that behaviour change. You see the chicken and egg situation, where some people say that they cannot cycle, because there are no cycle lanes in my area, for example, so putting in the infrastructure is a build-it-and-will-come type of thing. We know that, even before climate focus, other countries that have shifted towards active travel on the continent have seen, as they have put in the infrastructure, massive uptake in people who are walking and cycling. I suppose that having that investment will be absolutely key. The other thing that Dr Malick touched on is food. We have food deserts in Glasgow, in many parts of Scotland, where there are simply not affordable, accessible options in terms of healthier and low-carbon food. I suppose that, first of all, mapping that to understand where that exists and then working to try and address that. There are some fantastic community projects in Glasgow and elsewhere around the country. Food pantries, which are bringing affordable, healthy and less carbon-intensive produce to areas that require that kind of service, ultimately needs to be a fundamental systems change with food retailers, so that it is not essentially the third and charity sector that is filling a gap that exists. We need a fundamental change in terms of how the supply systems and retailers work, so that they are embedding that thinking, so that people have the ability to make those choices and to embrace that behavioural change. We cannot expect people to change their behaviour if they are going to break the bank to do so, especially when we are talking about the legacy of inequalities that the just transition agenda is so focused on. There are a number of things, but the Government, at all levels, needs to make sure that we are empowering people, that we are putting in place the infrastructure in whatever context that is, so that people have the ability to make those choices. Thank you. Dr Malik, you dropped out for a little bit, so Gary is asking about behavioural change, what do we need to see from people? He points out that most of the UK's current net zero transition has been achieved through the use of new technologies, which is how we have made most of the progress so far. However, when we get to the more or as challenging areas of individual behavioural change, and I wondered if the pandemic, we are doing the pandemic, you know, when people work from home, there are fewer car journeys, people aren't flying anywhere, is there some behavioural change that has been forced through the pandemic that we should maybe actually try and hold on to? People were doing much more local shopping, you know, those types of examples. Thank you for that, Claire. I think it is a wonderful question from Gary, because that's the crux of achieving any change. It's the people who make the change, and not the technology or the meetings or emails, as has been said. So attitude change, I would say, is a marathon, not a sprint, and we cannot achieve it overnight. But if it is conveyed properly and people start to realise why that change is needed, that's when the whole-hearted change happens. So you are a spot on in terms of that the pandemic has shown us a mirror. It has in a lot of way changed the society's habits. I suppose it was a forced change, which we had to adopt. And in a way, what Gary is saying here is the technology that we had to use technology to connect back and to deliver the solutions. But the byproduct of that or after effect of that was that the carbon usage went on. If we are looking at the earth overshoot project numbers, then we have made progress by two months in terms of the carbon reduction in journeys and car travel and shopping habits and local supply chain, as you all pointed out. And the question then comes is that why do we need to use the other way of life? And it's simply there are basic factors to it. Sometimes it was cheaper. For example, for supply chains, we let it go. We just went for the simple options because the money was the priority. And then we forgot to calculate what are the after effects of it? What are the side effects of food or clothing or an item travelling thousands of miles across? And it is with the education and the awareness that people start to realise that, do I really need to look at that 50p? So which is why that carbon miles, if it starts to be printed onto the items, whether it's the food item or the clothing, then people will start to realise. And like we are looking at calories now, do people need to be aware of how intense, I mean, BBC has done some interesting programmes where they are showing that if people realise, then they make a different choice because it doesn't matter what you're choosing as long as it's affordable. So that's the question and what so far one point that we haven't touched is the young people because we have touched on that the elderly are affecting because there is a limited source income. They have what they have in pension or in the bank, so they have to make choices between what they food or heat. But the younger people, they are more aware in this particular area, for example, and that's a good behavioural change because they have skipped a generation. They have not had some of those habits which we were utilising as a consumer. And they are making conscious choices, I suppose, for certain travels or the mode of travel, whether it's the cycling or the walking, they are more green aware. But what can we do to make them even more positive towards that rather than feeling that they need to drop certain habits? And in that case, the issue will come. How are we preparing them for these jobs that are required in future? And that's where the skills agenda will come in, preparation for the jobs and the options that are available. So if there are better solutions available, they will choose those better solutions. Similarly, Angus was talking about the transport. Yes, transport can be challenges in the distant areas, in the sort of regionally distant areas where there are no EVs or electric points for people. You make an example of wanting to make a car, which is electric. But the question is, after 250 miles, you will have to be charging it. So if you do commute either for work or to go and meet people where you require that, then there is a choice between a daily travel or a long travel and then people make that choice as long as the country has enough. Similarly, for food choices, do we really need something off season? Can we not eat something? And coming from a society where food wastage is considered, I was born in India. And as you say, that we always used to eat seasonal. Do you really need to preserve the food to eat it at a different time? Is there a shortage of food? So those are the choices we make. And pandemic has shown us in supply chain that everything which needed to travel thousands of miles just because we let go of our manufacturing facility. So from putting my investment hat on there, I would say we need to really have a take a look of what are we producing, our medicines, our life sciences equipment, as the solutions are available. And those innovative solutions, we need to look at how we strengthen, do we have a plan B, and then when those solutions are available, behaviour changes do happen. Thank you. Thank you, Dr Amalik. Can I just ask Jim, the answer that Dr Amalik gave, she did mention young people and their futures. How does the Just Transition Commission look at issues of generations and dimension skills and the new sectors that will be created that possibly weren't even aware of yet? How do we make sure that young people and that generation get the opportunities from this? Yeah, the Just Transition Commission report actually produced, we produced a green recovery report at the request of the government middle of last summer. And we identified a set of hot spots and areas where there were particular challenges that were created by that sort of wicked space between Covid, you know, getting the Just Transition agenda going. And young people were one of the hot spots, basically, that we recognise there. So we really did pick out that challenge. I think the question is going to be there, you know, do we get the right kind of skills training and education in from the beginning? And in our final report, as well as sort of mid-career training from people who are going to need to change from one part, the energy sector to another, we were also very concerned to make sure that the skills and the education was built right in from early years to kind of prepare people, you know, for the kind of labour markets that would actually be emerging. If I might say just on the Covid thing, just responding to Poonam, we've all been agreeing with each other so far. So maybe to introduce a little element of challenge on it, we found some difficulties with Covid there and the transport area, because the use of private cars has bounced back, but the same has not happened for public transport. And that's a big challenge if you're thinking about ways of getting people to move around. So we were very concerned about rebuilding, building trust in public transport, especially given the fact that Scotland can actually build electric and, you know, hydrogen fuel cell buses. We've got that local manufacturing capability with Alexander Dennis. So I think that this question of public transport as well, we need to think very hard about the recovery from Covid, because it has exacerbated existing inequalities rather than winning against them. And that I think is a real challenge for us. And I do think we'd be too realistic. So I've done my job, I've got it going because Poonam's got her hand up again for a rapid response. Thank you, Professor Ski. We are running a bit short of time. So what we're going to do, I have a final question from Duncan, which I'm going to pose to Angus. But Angus, if you can make any closing comments in response to the question as well, and then I will invite other speakers to give a closing response as well. So the question mark from Duncan is around local authorities. Are they looking for, looking with energy companies on making green energies available, such as a hydrogen network? Is this anything that Glasgow's looking at? And if there's any other closing comments that you would like to make, I'll take those just. Thanks for that. Yeah, I mean, I think it is something that's very much on the agenda, and there are discussions, you know, certainly in Glasgow's context, I'm not sure how much I'm able to see. But there are discussions on going about, you know, about exactly this, and in terms of, you know, the supply of hydrogen. We've recently, you know, we've got our council fleet strategy. We've, you know, we've recently invested in hydrogen refuse clutch and trucks, for example. And, you know, there's a discussion on going about that. But, you know, in terms of the actual supply of that and how we make that more widely available, that is something that is actually being considered as part of, you know, as part of, you know, that whole agenda. I think the final comments, I suppose that I would make, and just to touch on something that hasn't been, sorry, that has just been, that I haven't had the opportunity to talk about, but just the kind of skills agenda in particular, I think it's absolutely key to, you know, to do anything we can to ensure that we've, the working across a government, public private sector, colleges, universities, you know, to make sure that the skill system that we have is fit for the changing economy. And I think that is going to be a real challenge. We in Glasgow have got, we're developing a just transition skills action plan that's being authored by Professor Alan McGregor from Glasgow University. And, you know, he's convening all these different stakeholders. But I think the challenge that we have is that the skills system is, you know, typified as being quite supply led rather than demand led. And, you know, we really need to, I suppose, re-engineer the entire way that we're doing it if we're actually going to, you know, kind of get into a position where we don't have, you know, a skills gap and, you know, huge numbers of people unable to participate in the new economy. So I think, I think cities and other local authorities need to be, need to be driving that agenda. I think partnerships between different levels of government as well as, you know, as well as the public, sorry, as well as the private sector will be absolutely key in that. But I think that's the, you know, for me that's one of the key challenges that we have and one of the things that we need to get to grips with sooner rather than later because it's not going to come easy. Thank you, councillor Miller. And I'll now go to Dr Amalic and then Professor Stee. Thank you, Claire, for that. So as I was saying, I agree totally with what Jim said, but I would also like to disagree that, yes, Covid has shown us that public trust has become less in public transport and whether that's because of health reasons that people are worried and they are not clear about the public transport safety on the other hand. But I think the other aspect of that is that certain vehicles which are running on traditional fuel tend to be much cheaper available options. So the question is that it is a question of government working in partnership with the new modes of transport which are available and accessible to people. And we did discuss the hydrogen fleet and from Alexander Dennis that's available, it was run as a trial in Aberdeen. And Angus was talking about having that possibly for Glasgow. A major cities will be able to use it. What are we thinking about the regional transport areas? Otherwise people will eventually make that choice that if there is no easily accessible transport, yes, I will choose my good old car and travel to either the station or the city and then go around. So if we are expecting behavioural change, then we need to be providing alternatives that are socially just and adoptable for people. And I think that would be the key for us in future because from the point, the other point which we haven't discussed even though part of green recovery is utilising 50% of the population is the women, as I mentioned in the diverse group. They were the other unjust part of the society that suffered more than the regular and that is because of maybe the care responsibility. But what we want to do in the green recovery and contribution to GDP is that we have seen entrepreneurs which have taken these challenges and started their businesses, what we need to enable these that to utilise the newer solutions, the innovative solutions, we bring them on board. And I agree when Angus says that it has been supply-led, but as a board member for Skills Development Scotland putting another hat on, I would try to say that what we are trying to say is that the universities and colleges work with businesses because for the green jobs, there is no solution there, there is no job there, we have to create that. So what do business need, how can we work in together and that would be the future where we can utilise our assets but provide the solution in partnership with those who need it and that would be the real green recovery. Thank you, Poonam. Jenna, if I come to you for some closing comments. Yeah, just to say it will continue this constructive debate with Poonam later as well. So I think we are going in broadly the same direction. But just to say, the very word transition suggests change. So it is really about a journey and we are only really at the start of the journey on this and there is an awful lot more to be done right across the spectrum. So I think the two things I would pick out is that one thing that has come out with some of the questions, we do need more analysis and understanding and science of certain aspects of it so that we can monitor progress and understand whether we are going in the right direction. And then the second big thing is engagement and this theme has come through as well from everybody. This has got to be bottom up and it has got to be owned, otherwise it will not succeed. And just a final kind of thing, I mean, so far I am the only member of the Just Transition Commission for the second phase. I hope by the time we get to COP26, I think at about 10 days time, I think we should be able in a position to announce a bit more detail about the direction and how it will actually be taken forward. Because I might say, I mean, it is right that we should be very humble about our progress so far because that is the way you drive it on. But people outside Scotland have been very impressed by what is going on. I have done so many talks in Brussels virtually, other parts of Europe, North America, etc. about what is going on in Scotland. People are hugely interested so we need to keep dug in. We have made a good start but there is an awful long way to go still. Thank you very much, Jim. I need to bring it to a close now. I would like to thank the audience for coming along and sincere thanks to Professor Ski and Dr Malick and Councillor Miller for their time this morning and their contribution to the debate. And also thanks to our BSL interpretation team of Helen Dunley-Pass and Heather Graham. Thank you very much for your contribution this morning. Can I remind everyone that there are also other events this afternoon, where our fast fashion event starts at 11.30 this morning and later on we have, this is not a drill, a discussion on climate action and there is an in-conversation with the scientist Dr Suzanne Simard at 7.30 tonight. The festival runs on until Sunday evening. So thank you once again for taking part for a very interesting discussion this Saturday morning and hope you will engage with the festival in the remaining days that we have. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.