 My name is Rula Halaf. I'm the editor of the Financial Times. And our session today is about defending Europe's United Front. As you know, European nations have been remarkably united over Ukraine. Most countries have been steadfast in their support. I looked up the Eurobarometer for the autumn of 2023, and the polling shows that the public support for helping Ukraine is also holding up. 72% agree with providing financial support to Ukraine. 61% support the EU granting candidate status to Ukraine. But, and there is a little but here. As we know from recent coverage in the FT, the EU aid package to Ukraine has been held up, and while European states have made strides in increasing and pooling resources for collective defence, they haven't had their own target for the production of artillery rounds. Now I'm delighted to explore these questions and others with a wonderful panel. Andre Duda, president of Poland, thank you for being with us. Mitra Kuleba, minister of foreign affairs of Ukraine. Thank you for being here. Katalina Novak is a president of Hungary. Great to have you. And we will later be joined by Andre Plankovic, I'm hoping the prime minister of Croatia. But until then, Svistiana Tsikhanouskaya is the leader of the Democratic Forces of Belarus. President Duda, I'm going to start with you. Would you say Poland was certainly one of the strongest supporters of Ukraine, especially in the first year following the invasion? But more recently, I've heard some comments from you describing Ukraine as a drowning person. Did I get it wrong or is that really what you said? And what did you mean by that? First of all, I have to answer this question in the following way. The fact that we stood, we have stood with Ukraine since the very first moments of the invasion, but not only, please remember that just a few hours before the invasion, together with the Lithuanian president Mr. Lito Gitanosnausera, we went to Kiev precisely in order to support, in this symbolic way, being fully aware of the fact that probably, just in a few moments, Ukraine would be attacked by Russia. The information was reaching us by different channels. But a few hours before that happened, myself and President Gitanosnausera went to Kiev and we talked to President Volodymyr Zelensky, supporting him politically, morally, demonstrating also at the same time to the people of Ukraine, because that was extremely important to us, that they were not alone in that difficult situation. And indeed, I felt huge responsibility to act in that way as President of Poland, as President of the neighbor of Ukraine, that is number one, number two also a state which, as a matter of fact, speaking about historical relationship with Russia has got a very similar past to us. Our history in this respect is the same, we can say. Both our countries for hundreds of years, both our nations were oppressed by Russia and we in Poland know perfectly well, looking from the historical perspective, what Russian aggression means, what Russian occupation means, what Russian enslavement means, what it means to be deported to Siberia and what it means a Russian terror, what Russian terror stands for. So in that respect, Polish people, it is not only about Polish authorities, but Polish people do understand the situation of their neighbors from Ukraine perfectly well. That is why exactly right after the outbreak of the war, people in Poland opened up their houses and massed to refugees from Ukraine. They went to the border. They took people from the border to their private cars, people whom they have never seen before, to give them help. They were also putting their houses, their apartments at the disposal of the refugees. They shared whatever they had, precisely because they understood what it meant that somebody was fleeing Russian invasion, because they understood what it meant that somebody wanted to take shelter. And for the very same reason, let us remember that back then, perhaps Ukraine would fall within three days, maybe within seven days, Russians would occupy Kiev, and then after a couple of days, it turned out not to be true. A heroic attitude of President Zelensky and his colleagues, his team, as well as the heroism of the defenders of Ukraine stopped that one would imagine unstoppable march of the Russians. And I think that was quite obvious. Ukrainians started to ask for support. They started to ask for help. And that is why, in Poland, among the top authorities of our country, actually right after the war started, we decided to donate to Ukraine more than 100 tanks from the warehouses of our armed forces, the tanks which could be operated right away by Ukrainian soldiers, because we had those tanks in our warehouses, the post-Soviet Iraq tanks. And that help was donated to Ukraine right away. And that, indeed, was the first significant military support that we provided Ukraine with. And in a sense, I'm proud to say that this opened up or started a whole wave of military assistance that reached Ukraine after that. As a matter of fact, over the period of almost two years, we have donated more than 300 tanks from Poland, including several Leopard tanks, the state-of-the-art tanks that we had at the time. We were also the country which, that was the thing that was said back then, we headed that so-called tank coalition. So we spearheaded the idea of donating state-of-the-art tanks to Ukraine. All the time we have tried, and we are trying to support Ukraine, but we also keep calling upon the international community, and I believe this is my fundamentally important task. We are calling not to stop this help and aid to Ukraine, because it is quite simple. If we consider the potential that Russia has, both in terms of the economy as well as the population, if we look at the differences in the number of inhabitants living in Russia and in Ukraine, and also if we consider the potential, the size of the armies of Russia and Ukraine, it is obvious that Russia is crushing Ukraine with all those indicators. And the fact that the Ukrainians are able and have been able for two years now to stop consecutive waves of Russian offensives, the fact that they are able to repel the attacks, and they are even able to regain at least part of the territories occupied by the Russians, this demonstrates, on the one hand, an incredible determination and heroism of the defenders of Ukraine, and an absolutely incredible will to survive, not only as a nation, but also as a nation with an own sovereign and independent state where they are going to decide about themselves. And the second thing, the second point, and the second thing, it also demonstrates that this international support has allowed Ukraine to survive all the time, because indeed there has been a lot of international support provided, but it is needed all the time. And the war fatigue, something that we have been talking about all the time, is a very dangerous, very risky phenomenon, and we have to try and prevent it. War fatigue. I think so. I think one can say that. Perhaps it is not very much politically correct. Maybe some people have got concerns or are afraid to say it out loud that this is the case. This war fatigue is visible. I will give you a very simple example. Ladies and gentlemen, just look at the information programs at news in your countries. Where can you see information about Ukraine? So if you look at the news programs in your country, where can you hear about aggression against Ukraine? In most cases, this information is not provided whatsoever. One of the things that I found really remarkable is that stories about Ukraine in the FT are still the top-red stories. I see no fatigue whatsoever amongst our readers. But let me turn to Minister Kuleba, because you wrote in Foreign Affairs recently that there were growing defeatist voices on Ukraine. And yet, your own armed forces commander has described the war as a stalemate. Well, he shared a message that was largely overlooked in the same piece. Everyone focused. It's just a matter of focus. Everyone focused on the word stalemate. But what he also said, and that was the main point of his piece, is that Ukraine needs more weapons and more sustainable deliverables of weapons in sufficient quantities to move on with the liberation of its territory and eventually winning the war. So it's really how you look at the issue, whether if you believe that the glass is half empty, you focus on the word stalemate. If you believe that the glass is half full, you focus on providing Ukraine with more military assistance in order to make our forces capable of pushing Russia back. And we proved that we can do that. In 2022, we liberated a large part of our territory, 50 percent of the territory that had been previously occupied by Russia. In 2023, we pushed Russian Black Sea fleet back away from our territorial waters, that allowed us to restore the grain corridor that does not depend on Russia, that can function independently. And 2024, of course, the priority is to throw Russia from the skies, because the one who controls the skies will define when and how the war will end. And that will require providing Ukraine with planes, which are underway, F-16s are underway, long-range missiles, drones, and Ukraine significantly ramped up production of drones, and, of course, electronic warfare. So if all of that comes, we will continue winning and we will continue liberating. But, you know, we are fighting a very big enemy, a powerful enemy, an enemy that doesn't sleep, so it takes time. Do you agree with President Duda that there is war fatigue? And do you think that Europe and the U.S. are in this for the long term? I haven't heard any official, neither in a meeting nor in a private conversation, who would say, listen, we are tired of helping you. So when we mention this word, war fatigue, we should clearly kind of define this term. And if you ask me, are we tired? Yes, we are tired. Of course you are. We've been fighting for two years. Are we giving up? No, we are not. It doesn't matter how tired or exhausted we will be, we will keep defending our country. So it's absolutely normal for a human being to and for a country to get tired, but it would be abnormal to stop defending yourself or helping us. But do you feel under pressure to start talking about peace? I know that you have a... No, we don't. I can save some time. No, we don't. Okay, well, that's good. Okay, we can move on. President Novak, Hungary is one of the 27 EU member states, but we often find ourselves wondering what Hungary's position is. I know that you have met with President Zelensky, but what your prime minister says and does is concerning, I think, to Ukraine and to a lot of other European states. So do you agree with Viktor Orban's veto on using the EU budget to help Ukraine? Can I also use my mother tongue? I'm just kidding. I will answer in English, of course. No, no, I will speak English. No, no. I'm just kidding. And first of all, it's my first time in Davos, so I'm still getting used to the traffic in my first place. And for example, last night I couldn't even make it to dinner, and this time I can assure you that Swiss trains are in time. So I actually took the train to get here. So first of all, thank you for the invitation, and thank you for speaking about this topic, because I think that even if we sometimes experience just referring back to what President Duda said and Minister Kulaba, if we speak about the potential of war fatigue, and I think the way we can do something against it is that we keep on speaking about this very and maybe most important topic for now in our neighborhood. And I also have to position us because we geographically are also in a quite specific situation given the fact that we are direct neighbors to Ukraine. And not only that we are direct neighbors, but we also have Hungarian nationals living on the territory of Ukraine. So I can also say that we are not only indirectly but also directly hit by the Russian aggression and the war in Ukraine. And I think that this conversation today also gives us the chance to concentrate on what we agree on, because I think that the most important elements are not even questionable. But for the first moment on, I can even refer to my integration speech two years ago when I already there made it very clear that I condemn the Russian aggression and we have to make it clear all the time who is the aggressor and who is the country which was invaded by another state. And we should also make it clear that Russia has crossed the rubicon by this act. And we should also make it clear that that is what we have been doing in the last almost two years. We should make it clear that this is a no-go zone, so that something like that cannot happen. And if we want to try to preserve our post-Second World War desire for peace, then we also have to clarify that war is never the solution and aggression is never the solution. And we tend to forget that Andrei Plankovic is also here representing Croatia. So it doesn't mean that since the Second World War we haven't experienced any war on the territory of Europe. Actually, we did. In fact, in our southern neighborhood as well, for ten years it lasted. So unfortunately, this war is still ongoing after two years of Russian aggression and still we don't see the end. Do you believe that Ukraine can win? I think Russia cannot win. And that is the most important. We have to reach that that Russia cannot win. So for Russia not to win, do you think that the EU package should actually go ahead? Because Ukraine needs it. I think that we further have to support Ukraine for sure. And I can assure you that Hungary will further be supporting Ukraine. That's a positive message. How do you feel about that? Well, I firmly believe that Ukraine's membership in the EU, Ukraine's existence as a friendly democracy is in the best interest of Hungary and all Europe. And Hungary is a very close partner. We do talk. Sometimes we have different positions, but in the end we sit down and discuss them. Most importantly, whatever the kind of discussion we have, there is always a solution in the end. And the last European Council, when the decision on opening accession talks was made, just proved it once again. And I will be seeing Hungarian Foreign Minister recently. Madam President has been visiting Ukraine. President Zelensky spoke with Prime Minister Orban in Argentina in the end of the year. So we are absolutely focused on finding solutions, and I'm sure that we will find them. Prime Minister Plenkovich, what's your assessment of European unity? And to what extent do you think it will hold for the long haul because this war, as we know, is likely to last? First of all, my apologies for being late. I came yesterday even on time for dinner, but today it took us half an hour. Seventh year in Davos. My apologies, but a few points. First of all, big greetings to all the colleagues who are here and friends. As someone who knows Ukraine very well, who has been working with Ukraine on Ukraine for many years, I firmly believe that we should be persistent in assisting Ukraine in such a dire situation, facing Russian aggression now for two years. My analysis is that first year from the Russian posture was seen as an issue of denazification of Ukraine, issue of questioning the identity of Ukrainians. Then as the war involved, it was from Russian posture, a concept, are we fighting a proxy of NATO? And now what we see recently is actually the debate of the posture evolving into the new concept of the new world order with an entirely changed balance of power globally. And in that context, I think we should see what are our choices. I said immediately in spring 2022 at one of our European Council debates on Ukraine that we need three elements that Ukraine wins. One, the motivation, heroism, sacrifice of Ukrainian soldiers, people, and motivating leadership, fighting for their existence and freedom. Second, is continued assistance by the West, both in terms of military assistance and in terms of financial assistance. Otherwise it's very difficult for Ukraine to be left alone. And third, to make sure that we in the West resist the internal pressures happening within our own societies due to the consequences on our economy, on our energy situation, our social situation, on inflation as one of the ramifications of Russian aggression against Ukraine. So far I think we have managed. That's why this debate on the revision of the multi-annual financial framework, I think we should see it very technically. What are we basically doing as the European Union? Just at the moment where we would have been anyway been debating about the revision of the current MFF, putting into a formal structure what we have been doing anyway for two years. And that is on a monthly basis, transferring funds to Ukraine. Now we want to do it systematically, 50 billion, 17, 33, in order to have some sort of perspective. Whether we shall do it within or without the classical budgetary framework, I think it's a secondary issue. The issue is that we help. This is essential. And I think that is actually what is going to happen. It would be very good politically if we could do it in the framework of 27 altogether. But if we don't, I'm sure we'll find a legal and a technical way to do it and ensure this consistency of assistance to Ukraine. Svetlana, Belarus is in some ways another front in this war and in the used response to Russia. How do you rate European unity? And do you think that the opposition has benefited from the greater Western recognition of Russian aggression? First of all, I want to remind how the fate of Belarus and Ukraine are intertwined. We in Belarus fully understand that without free Ukraine there will be no free Belarus. But also without free, independent and European Belarus there will be constant threat to Ukraine, to our neighbors until Kashenka's regime is in the country. He will be puppet of Russia. Belarus will be balcony to threat our neighbors. So that's why a victory of Ukraine is of extreme importance for Belarus as well. And that's why we are asking to give Ukraine anything they ask, anything. And when you ask about fatigue, maybe I'm so deeply involved in the situation in our region where I have to protect Belarus, I have to fight together with the Belarusians against Kashenka's regime and Russian subjugation. I think that we don't have right to feel fatigue because when I feel about the words of fatigue I think, look, tell these words to Ukrainian soldiers in the trenches or Belarusian political prisoners who now are being tortured in prisons. They are continuing to resist so we should continue to walk together with them as well. But of course I understand that Belarus is the weakest point, weakest link in Putin's war. Now while Kashenka is there, Putin is using our country as a playground, they are using our infrastructure to keep threats threatened in Ukraine. But when we get rid of Kashenka's regime, when democratic government will be installed in Belarus there will be the best way out for Belarus. It's the best help for Ukraine. That's why we have to keep coalition of countries who are supporting Ukraine and have to develop comprehensive strategy on Belarus. We need pressure on the regime, support to people, accountability for Kashenka's crimes and also commitment to future. I want here to underline sometimes the undecisiveness of the democratic world. You know, Kashenka committed many, many crimes. Crimes against humanity, he hijacked the airplane, he orchestrated the migration crisis, he is kidnapping Ukrainian children from occupied territories to Belarus. And we need special investigation for the crimes. Why international structures are working not so effective than they could do. So I believe that with consistency and decisiveness we can get Belarus out of the war with the help of Belarusian democratic forces and thank you to our strategic partners in supporting us. Do you think he's been strengthened by the war because he's now part of the Russian front? Lukashenka now is very fragile. Maybe it seems differently, you know, from abroad, but he feels fragile. He haven't managed to persuade Belarusian people in his legitimacy, he's illegitimate in the eyes of Belarusian people. He's puppet of Russia. He can't solve, he can't decide anything by his own, you know, in Belarus. But he needs political support of Russia and he will fulfill all the orders of Russia. And our task is to make Lukashenka toxic to his own environment and to weaken him through sanctions and through accountability. I want to switch to another topic that is very important to European unity and that is what happens in the US elections. I know everyone, you've probably all had conversations already about anxiety in Europe over the possible election of Donald Trump. President Duda, are you worried that a Trump election will reopen divergent views in Europe, which is what we saw last time around? First of all, ladies and gentlemen, first of all, I always repeat, it is the American people who decide who they will elect as their president. Just like all our societies, all our nations make their own decisions about who will be their president. If there is general presidential election in our country, things differ. Sometimes there is general presidential election, sometimes not, but if it is a general election for president, then it is the nation who decides, it is the people who decide who their president will be. And any kind of intervention from outside, I think it shouldn't take place. So saying what will be better for the United States, or speculating who's going to be the president, what's going to be better, from the position of the politicians, I'm always careful about this. But what I can tell you about my approach to the United States in my capacity as president of Poland, I believe as follows. Euro-Atlantic bond. This is an absolutely fundamental thing. History has taught Europe and the United States, not only Europe, but also the United States has drawn the lesson, and I always stress it because I also communicated it to consecutive presidents of the United States. I have already cooperated with three U.S. presidents, with Barack Obama, with President Trump, and today with President Joe Biden. And I always stress in my conversations, this is a relationship which is, which pays off both ways. If there is a war in Europe, the United States, if there is a big war in Europe, the United States, and that was demonstrated in the First World War, in the Second World War, the U.S. has to come and fix the thing, support Europe, so that Europe regains its peace. People die in Europe, and people, U.S. soldiers die. So this is not good for anyone. So the best thing is to keep cooperation of the time to prevent war, so that we're able to strike the balance, the security balance, which is so badly needed. It is absolutely clear to me. So strengthening the Euro-Atlantic bond is the fundamental thing. And here I believe that we should be working on it, no matter who the President of the U.S. is. The United States should be working on this, no matter who governs in Europe, and Europe should be working on it, no matter who is in power in the United States. That is my personal opinion. Now, speaking about Polish interests, I think it is the duty of the President of Poland always to have as good relations as possible with the United States. And it doesn't really matter from which political party a U.S. President comes, whether he or she is a Republican or a Democrat, or maybe there is some other political group in power in the future. It is the interest which is non-partisan, if you look at American internal policy or if you look at any kind of ideas. The most important thing is security, strengthening your Atlantic community, and this is the rudimentary, the basic task. That is why I'm observing the U.S. elections very calmly. I would like these elections to run in a very calm and peaceful way. Of course, I'm most worried and concerned about such developments as the unrest which we were able to see after the last U.S. elections. That is a situation where we can see that potentially a stability in the United States can be upset. So this is something that we can consider dangerous. But if we are seeing a normal democratic process of yet another election, of course we will have to welcome any election that is made. That is true. We, as European presidents, we who do not vote for a U.S. President, we have to accept any choice made by the U.S. people. We have to accept every choice and we have to try and cooperate in the best possible way. Well, of course, also demonstrating on our side the will to cooperate, but cooperation on the basis of mutual interests. So both parties have to be the winners. It has to be a win-win situation. That is why in the run-up to the Polish presidency of the European Union in 2025, in early 2025, Poland will take over the presidency of the European Council. Among our priorities, which we have adopted and which we want to realize during our presidency for us and for the whole European Union, we decided that our priority will be the strengthening of the Euro-Atlantic unity. So what we are saying is more Europe in the United States, more United States of America in United Europe, more common interests, more common economic relations, and also more common relations in terms of security, in the area of security. Other priorities that we have on our list is to admit new member states including Ukraine, Moldova, Western Balkan states. And another priority is energy security of Europe because we believe this issue is most important. But the first priority is security, security, and more security, both economic one as well as military security. And the key here is the Euro-Atlantic bond. And in terms of economy, as far as I'm concerned, this was demonstrated by COVID pandemic when the supply chains from Asia, from China were broken, when there were problems, that Euro-Atlantic bond indeed demonstrated how key it was. And I have no doubt whatsoever that we have to boost it. This is number one. And number two, we have to build our European potential in terms of economy. But as far as security is concerned, then the Euro-Atlantic bond is absolutely of fundamental importance. You're a diplomat, so I expect a diplomatic answer, but I can... I will ask anyway. Are you calm? Always. Say more. Listen, we've learned, we Ukrainians, we've learned how to survive and prevail in any reality. Whatever the choice the people of America will make, we will work with that reality, and we will be finding solutions that benefit our country, but also transatlantic security and global security as a whole. Frankly, I'm more concerned with what will happen on day one and further on after elections because it really matters that the United States political system remains focused, that America will not drown into domestic fights, spending resources, political resources on fixing entirely inter-party discussions and issues because America is important for global stability, and America will have to remain focused on global issues, and Ukraine is one of those global issues. So when it comes to names, I mean, we have experience. President Zelensky had this short period of interaction with President Trump while he was still in office, and there were different moments, but we should all remember that it was actually President Trump who sold us the first lethal weapons. The javelins. It was not the Obama administration. His Trump administration issued the Crimea Declaration to make policy into irreversible policy, the policy of non-recognition of illegal annexation. The first patrol boats, Mark VI and Islanders, this program was cleared by the Trump administration. We started receiving them to reinforce our Navy. So we have to respect the choice of the people of America. We will remain very realistic, very focused, and we will be finding solutions because there is just no other way for us but to find these solutions. Let me bring the audience in. If there is a question, I see a hand there. It's a question for Minister Kuleba. The counteroffensive didn't really work very well. So my question for you is, do you expect to be facing questions not so much from international supporters but from Ukrainian society as to what is the path to victory and how you would define victory in 2024? You know, the landing of Allied forces in Normandy in 1944 did not end very well immediately, right? And the Ardennes counteroffensive of the Nazi Germany was pretty successful. And no one was asking this kind of questions back then because everyone realized that there was an evil that Allies were fighting against, that war consists of different battles. And if we remain focused on the struggles and battles which were not as successful as expected, then we will, of course, help to proliferate defeatist voices and we will reinforce the Russian message because it's the Russian message. It's out there that you see you cannot beat us on the ground but I made my point earlier before. We defeated them on the ground in 2022. We defeated them on the sea in 2023 and we are completely focused on defeating them in the air in 2024. So let's focus on winning the war and not on finding arguments which I find artificial with all respect on why we cannot win the war. Excuse me, can I join to that as well because I think it is important that we also study the experience of the First and Second World War, of course, but we have to avoid to find ourselves in a Third World War. So that is just something that I would like to emphasize that actually NATO is not at war and the European Union is not at war for now and I think what we have to avoid is that militarily also getting involved and also avoid the escalation of the war. So we have to support Ukraine in its fight in its protection of its homeland but I think what is so precious for us I'm also a mother of three children that we live still in a peaceful country and we have to keep our countries safe. I think we have to keep all our countries safe and try to do our utmost in order to avoid the escalation of the war. Of course in the meantime means that we keep further supporting Ukraine in its fight. Go back to my earlier question then. Do you think that Ukrainian victory is important for the protection of the rest of Europe? I come back to my previous answer when I say that we have to make it clear that aggression is not a way. Aggression won't work and that is why I say that Russia shouldn't win before. That's why I'm saying that Russia should not win this war and cannot win this war and I think that is what we have to keep in mind and we have to support. You can have a frozen conflict and you can say that Russia hasn't won this war but a frozen conflict would be very bad news. I don't think that this remaining five minutes enable us to find a solution to the war but I think what actually Ukraine is working on is the peace formula. Ukraine has put on the table a peace formula Hungary has also joined. All of our countries actually are there at the table. That's what we are working on because our ultimate goal should be at the end of the day peace. We should keep that in mind. The question is for now how we can get to that but we shouldn't forget that and I don't think we can solve this in five remaining minutes. Let's try anyway. Who else has a question? Yes, go ahead please. Thank you everybody. You've mentioned that the United States a lot during this but no one's mentioned the other global superpower. What's the role of China during 2024 to solve this crisis? I would like to take it. Well I think first of all when it comes to the United States since you said you wanted all of us to comment I think Europe needs the United States involved attached to the values and principles that are basically freedom and democracy and peace and that's why I think whatever happens in the elections in November we have to strive for an engaged United States regarding the assistance to Ukraine. I'm not saying it's an immediate effect on the level of support to the European Union but any change will politically have some sort of repercussions. This is how the world works. That's why I think we need this commitment but at the same time European Union should really strengthen its defense capabilities and this is I think a development that all of us have understood and all of us are clearly engaged. My country which is one of the smaller countries has increased its budget over the last seven years in terms of defense spending more than 100% just to give you an idea and the capabilities whether it's in our air force or our land forces or our marine it's being something that is a part of the normal and well understood and in the social terms accepted investments. When it comes to China I think our key element is that China remains out of the conflict when it comes to Russia's aggression against Ukraine and that it remains an interlocutor of the West in striving for peace. This I think should be our main objective and I think especially in the context of the attempt of a new world order with the bricks with different poles creating a globe that has a rather different structure and shape than it had let's say 10, 15, 20 years ago and one final point current Russia's aggression against Ukraine it's not only two years this is the second phase of the process that started 10 years ago and I think we should understand it in such a way it's a well planned situation where the state of play in terms of current situation in the field is that we have two more Ukrainian regions being temporarily occupied this is where we are. Once with China to come in on China in particular do you have any contact with China do they do discuss Belarus with them? Actually we as democratic forces don't have communication with China because at the moment somehow supporting the Belarusian regime though the Chinese are very pragmatic and they stopped many much cooperation with Belarus but nevertheless but we see that dictators tyrannists in the world they are making coalitions and it's a huge threat to the democratic world you know when sometimes I hear that we shouldn't be involved in this war in Ukraine we have to keep our country safe it's propagandistic narrative Russian narrative that it's not your war it's Ukrainian's war let them fight this issue themselves but I suppose that one day if we let things to be like this the enemy tyranny will knock your doors and what you are going to do many years of appeasements and attempts of eradicating dictators they haven't worked and half measures on the harm of the situation because I see now some countries on the one hand they are condemning the war on the other hand they continue to trade with Russia they are creating loopholes for trade with Russia so it should be stopped Are there any other questions? Okay then I would like to ask about European defence and maybe President Duda do you need champions do you need companies to actually merge and create European champions because one of the problems that we've seen and not just in Ukraine is the lack, the shortages in munitions in particular but not only munitions how do you resolve that long term that we are living in a much more complicated world war is back what do you think? This is a very serious problem and I would say even a shameful problem suddenly it turned out suddenly it turned out that in our European storages we do not have enough reserves to even defend Europe if there was a serious aggression whatsoever that we should tighten cooperation within the European Union inside Europe speaking about the production of ammunition and also in terms of developing new armaments also I believe that European cooperation in construction of for instance a European tank or in developing European aviation at the EU level absolutely should be tightened and joint projects from our perspective are very much welcome the production of ammunition indeed is an element which is much telling as a matter of fact there are still shortages of ammunition of course there is a problem what standards we are sticking to the NATO standard ammunition and the post-Soviet standard ammunition at least in the beginning of the war Ukrainian was using that standard the majority of such ammunition was used so if we look at the reserves of ammunition they are running out, they are being depleted the older type of ammunition we almost don't have it anymore but still we are having a shortage of NATO standard ammunition and looking at unfortunately deteriorating security situation in Europe and looking at the threats which we are discussing here today on the one hand there is a threat with Russian imperialism unfortunately I believe it is still growing all the time on the other hand we have mentioned China in our discussion and we hear that we do not know what the outcome of the presidential election will be in Taiwan which happened a couple of days ago what kind of situation would be there we were discussing that all of that demonstrates that being ready and maintaining readiness to respond should there be any kind of aggressive behavior not only towards us directly we are helping the preparedness for that and our preparation to do that today is indispensable so absolutely economic cooperation industrial cooperation in this respect at the EU level it is something that we should be doing absolutely well as President Novak said we have not solved the Ukraine question but I hope that we have been able to contribute a little bit to the debate for B thank you so much thank you very much