 Thanks once again for coming to a special meeting. This one will be dealing with structures and government We have two main presentations this evening before we do that though, we'll have a Prove of the minutes from September 22nd It's been moving seconded to approve the minutes any comments or discussion Okay, all in favor Anybody opposed? Okay, the minutes stand approved. We will get right into our discussion Government structures first of all I'd like to make a correction on the second amended agenda the resolution 240 it should be 240 08-09 because that was from our past council Session this was Given to us in March so that's from the different council. So if you just change that 0 9 to 0 10 to 0 8 to 0 9 Okay All of them in right windflash. It was the chairperson of the committee on Committee for special forms of government or forms of government. He will give an overview to the group here We'll have questions from the council, but also questions from the public as to our statements or comments about it So this is the one where we were talking about city administrator and the city manager government Thank You madam chair is this on then yes, it is good Good evening If you recall the end of the last Council session towards the last few weeks of it a government structure committee was Created for the point of two things really and that would be looking at a city administrator form of government as well as Looking at corporate council. Do we stick with a? An elected city attorney or to go some other method that way unfortunately as our overview showed we only had five weeks to tackle both of those questions the Committee agreed that we would start focusing on the city administrator position first and then if time permitting look at the the city attorney position And unfortunately though with five weeks did not have time the hope was that the committee would be Reactivated by the new council this council to further discussion on those points that we have not accomplished this point in time Furthermore if you and your reports the appendix brings a lot of information that was out of the purview of what we're looking at in terms of City administrator, but a lot of the information ties in directly to if we're going to change the form of government from the top down The bottom forms of the structures the ward Representation versus a city-wide representation and so on like the school district would have would tie into that as well So that's important information there That report information came from the white papers from the greater Sheboyin committee and was voted unanimously by the committee to add to it, but it was not as Discussed as much as the administrator position would have been so really the focus today is going to be on Professional city administration straighter position But I'll be open to any and all questions regarding the entire report that the council has I do believe that the report is online For those of the public that would like to look at the full report I think there might be copies out there already as well to take a look at Skipping the resolution that's attached to it for now on this first and second paragraphs We really kind of highlight the reason what what was created and why? Again back in February 11 2009 we only met five times that was every week that we had the opportunity to we were giving a Drop dead date that we had to respond back to the council by which we did meet that date But again, there's a lot of factors a lot of nuances of city government that need to be discussed Not just within the city attorney position, which we didn't cover but within the city administrator position Really what we're coming out with there was a recommendation that we move towards that direction But as you'll see that does not necessarily dictate the actual form of what we recommend That'll make some sense as I move forward and in the findings There's really two forms of city administration the city administrator And the city manager While the name sound often familiar people tend to use them interchangeably in fact in, wisconsin They're not interchangeable. They are two completely separate forms that we can examine The first one is the mayor slash city administrator form of governance that we discussed and that would involve Having a mayor position having city manager administrator position as well as having the elected council as well The addition as people would see would actually be the city administrator as is As added to within some kind of table of organization It is the fastest growing model of municipal governance that people are cities are changing over to that for many good reasons But it involves the installation of a professionally trained manager to assume the responsibilities for the day-to-day Operations and serve as a fixed point of accountability for service delivery What that means is that that it's a chief executive position It would be the executive director chairman of the board It would be ceo something of that nature where the buck stops here There's one place that that would be going to furthermore than for the Public's viewpoint is there is one person that is the ultimate decision-maker as well That's if contacting with the city governments you get to a certain point like the answer you can keep moving up He's eventually nowhere that that that ends But the responsibilities the day-to-day operations the responsibilities are actually dictated by The elected officials still on one hand the mayor's is in charge of the policy Responsive to the public when there's the public dictates a change of policy doesn't like the way things are being operated The most powerful option they have is the vote and so in terms of policy Do we raise taxes do we lower taxes? Do we do redevelopment projects do we pull the line redevelopment projects? That is still ultimately decision of the public through the elected officials through the mayor who's in charge of policy the greatest Responsibility of a city administrator is to not be involved in creation of policy their position is to recommend policies is to Give input on reasons why policies may be good or make bad May give information on the experience in other localities following the same policy, but it actually is not in charge of dictating that policy It is the council who then sets the roles and that would actually go through Solid agreements is who would go through that process of dictating who we want and what recommendations we need what requirements We need for that position what the salary is and go through hiring process through civil service So we're very much in charge of what that person would do on a day-to-day basis But they're there that position it would be responsible a committee for it the council for the activities of the day-to-day But not for policy and that's that's the two things people ask why do we have a mayor and a city administrator It's because those two things need to be separate public needs to be heard And that is through the elected voice of the mayor and through the common council Dan Thompson was the person that we had spoken with he given a lot of information He is with the league of the Wisconsin League of Municipalities And was able to give us good information on which cities have which forms of government and they're briefly listed in the report 24 cities I think that's actually to be 24 major cities larger cities with a full-time mayor and no administrator much like we have here nine cities with a city manager and no mayor which we'll talk about later and Four cities we have a full-time mayor and full-time administrator and then 24 other cities with a full-time administrator Part-time mayor and these are cities like Wauwatosa Franklin Oak Creek West Bend. These are the nearby positions that would have a Part-time mayor and a full-time administrator As I stated the creation of that is actually by local ordinance and and the responsibilities are given by the elected officials here for that person and That's important point that I don't want to gloss over too much is that it's the positions created somehow within the Responsibilities of the elected officials to create this position not to create the position to dictate how long we hire a person for or Responsibilities of that that's up to us What we recommend for the responsibilities of a city administrator and how to judge the performance of a city administrator is on the success in the bullet points below directing supervising and coordinating the day-to-day activities of all municipal governments and services the preparation of the annual budget for submission to the mayor and to the council the The mayor would still be responsible ultimately for the presentation as our city code state for the budget The city administrator would act in concert with the mayor to write that budget Implementation of all actions of the council and carrying out its directives as the council changes policies or creates new policies It is a responsibility of that professional to then go ahead and know the best way to to make those changes within city government review and Should be again make recommendations on policy issues for consideration by the council This would come from the experience of the person or the The groups that the city administrator to be associated with what's working in other cities would it work here? Are there new ideas that we haven't even heard about that being successful elsewhere? That person as professional will know that and be responsible to communicate those ideas to us as well We're responsible for providing regular updates to the council on community on matters of interest Again, if that person hears things that as elected officials were not Communication must come forward to to the mayor and to the common counsel and the response for doing so not keeping that secret It is you know, we ultimately we are that that positions supervisor and providing complete and factual information about local operations including pros and cons of alternatives and the long-range consequences of decisions as we've probably all experienced at times in the heat of debate Sometimes we make decisions that we look back later on and go was that truly the best one or was it truly not the best one? Having a professional who it's had experience elsewhere Who's had the education elsewhere and who knows other city administrators elsewhere would be able to say this is a great idea I know where you're going with that. However, be careful because this may occur We currently have that in the legal aspect with our city attorney But there may be policy aspects that we're not aware of that we'd have to follow through with You know state laws that we're not aware of or so on We talked a little bit about how the mayor of the role is in the community that has a minute administrator And I'll skip this portion and allow people to ask questions later on about that role if anybody does But there is the appendix there that the city attorney Stephen McLean Highlighted what's actually in the city code. What is this the role of the mayor if we were ever go to? Former government that does not include a mayor We'd actually have to change our city code to change those opportunities Which is not the recommendation of the the committee the government structure committee our recommendation is to keep a form of mayor And so those duties that are spelled out and attorney McLean's appendix would still need to be functioned by the mayor But ultimately As I've stated already, but the qualifications salary that's up to sovereign grievances, which is up subject to the council And subject to mayoral mayoral veto quite frankly So there's a lot of layers there that that the position created is responsive to the desires of elected officials who Should be responsible to desires of those that elect him that the people in the city of Sherbrooke again But there's a wide variety of wages. There's a wide variety of requirements that we could ask for as stated in the report there the Wisconsin tax Taxpayer alliance report a salary range of forty-four five forty-four thousand five hundred two hundred ten thousand for city administrator positions my experience in in attending classes My master's degree in public administration For city our size would probably look at me on the 45 to 65,000 But if you wanted somebody with who had ten years of experience who's been in big cities of the size who has You know that qualifications be prepared to spend on the high end of that But again, we'll talk about our answer questions regarding Does that pay for itself or does not pay for itself and the recommendation of the committee is? By making structural changes in the former and our current former government We can save that money and it would probably be a very short-term return on investments When you if the right person is hired in terms of finding the savings and in terms of paying basically for their own way Ten year of office is a local option. You know instead of we could create a position for five years We could create a position for three but Currently the city of minutes the city shawagon department has our point for five-year terms And so we'd recommend the same pattern as well And in most communities the administrator is an at-will employee serving at the pleasure of the council And that's the important thing there that if we have someone that does not necessarily Meet our perception of what a city minister should be doing or is not meeting our guidelines as an at-will employee It's it's Instead of a contract employee something that we can terminate that point in time And that I'll definitely defer in terms of the employment law to a city attorney if Any questions about that but that's our experience is the cities that come across that you're free to move on and free to point somebody else the second form of Local governance that we studied was the city manager versus the city administrator city manager form of local government This is different than the city administrator in the sense that this is actually in the Wisconsin state statutes of what the responsibilities are and How they're going about appointed it really takes away a lot of the control of the elected officials in in the locality in Sheboygan to dictate how this person It should act in their day-to-day operations, but duties they should follow And in fact then the state codes state statutes show that it's that city manager becomes v One and only chief executive officer. There is no mayor and as a chief executive officer It's a position that's not responsive to an elected body as well So our recommendation is not to go with the city minister position and there's other points there as well But we still feel that we need a position if we're going to have someone who's being a chief executive someone still needs to be Responsive to the elected people people of the city On the third page, I'm basically skip on down to the very specific recommendations of the government structure committee and that is to To not recommend the city manager, but rather to Recommend a city administrator position one that can be created by the government as is specifically for these very specific duties duties that we feel that the City administrator should follow through and as preparation the annual budget we talked about Recruiting hiring supervising terminating governmental staff something currently within human resources Advising the council on matters of operational importance and carrying out council directives Providing complete and objective information to the council Developing an annual action plan and this is a key one as well the action plan it goes both ways One it sits down with either a committee a set forth or the entire council sits forth every year with the city administrator position And that is simply to say what is the goals for the city in that particular year? And what is the goals the city has for the city administrator in that particular year? And as such that two-way communication then one allows us to make sure that we have the right city administrator in position But two then every department had knows what our goal specific goals are for that year Right now at what happens to the government is generally our budget is becomes that action plan which means that we Run all year to create the funds that we're going to spend But really no long-term plan on how we're going to spend them And and so we end up with a silo effect each department is independent They get their portion of the budget they operate within that portion of budget But there's no long-term document or even annual document that that breaks the silos down into that this unified city government So that the council can see how our things proceeding throughout so so it's one way of Once the budgets pass every department looks at their budget and says okay, this is what we got It's it's a broader term now we have their budget, but now it's how is that using for the city's goals of that year? Which is I think a much higher Level of the executive operational than we've been operating under since the city has been around And of course the coordinating the preparation of the annual report as well the key things about that the duties are Without being political because this The government structure committee was created under a different mayor than we currently have right now So I don't want to speak on either one of the two mayors that are that are with us right now It's not political. It is a search for a a More advanced professional the person is going to have at least a master's degree in the findings When we talked about it was that we don't elect the chairman of a board of a private company We don't have a popularity contest to dictate Experience we let experience dictate experience we let experience to dictate salary And we let education dictate the kind of person that we're going to have and that's the kind of thing We're looking for is and for the ultimate chief executive is to have to meet certain requirements Now that's not to take anything away in the sense of the mayor position That's why I don't want to speak about either former Perez or current mayor Bob Ryan because it's not meant to be political It is to be actually be a support tool for the mayor the mayor then can focus on the policy changes What did I get elected for what did the public say when they elected me? What did I promise and how am I going to deliver those promises? I think that there's no greater power than to add to allow The the elected officials to go ahead and pursue those goals and not have to all of a sudden try to become a master degree educated person In the time that they're trying to lead the city through with their policy changes So the government structure committee really found it as a resource for the mayors and not a replacement of the mayors but rather to to take away some responsibilities And give them to and I create more responsibilities for what the mayor was elected to do and that is to make create policy and like policy So we felt strongly that the administrator should have broad-based training in specifically municipal management Certainly within the private industry there are you know people with masters of business administrations and Highly educated a lot of experience as well but I can tell you from experiences that from Working towards my masters of public administration that while many of the same ideals of leadership of Budgeting and finance are the same the actual knowledge of the laws within you what you have to what you're operating municipality versus a private industry Negotiations are a little bit different So we specifically while you could use somebody with a private masters of business administration We recommend definitely someone with municipal management experience Furthermore someone with municipal management experience. You can look at their history. What did they do in the past? We're the successful in the previous municipality. Why are they moving forward? and There's history there that we can use as a city of our size we would become a destination for somebody that is Looking at you know either getting moving their way up in the life or taking a large responsibility So I think we'll have the opportunity to be a much pickier about who we hire and we can definitely look at the history and say I know what you're saying, but your history doesn't show that And so we definitely want municipal experience but they also can provide consistency and that's another word that we talked a lot about is Well policies are meant to change and are meant to be responsive to the will of the people And I think Bobby gonna test to this in your first day in the office He said down at the desk. It's an empty desk or a phone. There's a computer and you've made all your promises to people How do you start? And you know, it's a tough decision for us as all the persons as well. We have the same thing as we come in You know, I've heard comments of wow. This is not really what I expected Well, no one really understands until we sit at these desks and understand what it is We're doing and and follow that learning curve having someone that's consistently in that office day one The American come in there and say this is what you've I heard you say the people This is what you want to do hear the tools to go do it from day one That person can be out there. There is no learning curve in that aspect same thing for them for the ultimate There's gonna be a resource for us as we sit down To to to use to further advance our policies as we were elected to do Develop strategic planning models and that's that's something as well again. We talked about the Annoy report. This is more of the long term Right now. We're undergoing a change within the capital improvements program And that's one example of changing the strategic program For how the city's operating the past but how we're gonna do it in the future as well So the administrator will definitely have ideas and experience in making those changes as well And the long-term leadership and again the leadership isn't necessarily to be This is their city. It is not it is the elected official city They report to us as well, but however the leadership that can be provided is Again through their experience, but more specifically to their knowledge This is how we want to accomplish something. How do we accomplish it? We'll always have a resource to go to who will understand the broader scope of State laws the broader scope of municipal governments has the education at it in that field and We'll be able to provide that leadership that we're looking for The next is the role of the mayor and then the appendix appendice. I believe is how you say it That we can either go through people would like to if I haven't bored people enough Or I'll take questions this point in time to see if If I've covered everything in detail Thank you very much all the minute when flesh is a very thorough Presentation and I appreciate the work that was done on the committee this there was also all all the person van der wheel and Heidemann Sorry, you see he's up here. So it sounds familiar, right Joe? So we'll take questions now first of all we have some questions from the council and then we'll go to the general public and Alderman born Alderman Rindfleisch Can you tell me What the implementation? Schedule would be when we could do this. Do we have to wait? Depending on whether we decide we're gonna have I'm assuming you're talking about a full-time mayor with this administrator Or would that be something to be decided and when could we implement this if we Wanted to we'd have to wait till the next election. What what what are the timetable the The the first part of that question regarding part-time versus full-time mayor I think that's a decision of the council in terms of if we move forward with this policy or not because ultimately you have to pay for that position and If full-time mayor we have a highly paid full-time mayor position In place right now. Where'd you go to part-time mayor? You could make some adjustments to that as well the changes we could implement the Structural changes we could say this is the direction we're going to go to and create a timetable for when the Solid agreements is is finished with their report on what the job recommendations should be when Recruiting should should be complete one recommendation should be done when it should go to civil service and so on But the actual change if if any change we could do it right now quite frankly We could have a city administrator right now, but we could not change the The city-statuted roles of the mayor or change the mayor's salary until the next election So we can make the changes depending on for the after the next election But again if we went to the city manager forum, which we don't recommend that we'd absolutely absolutely have to wait until I've you know, we have to complete it before so we knew that we weren't having a next election because we're going to Have that position instead But any change to that salary or so on any candidates need to be aware of that change coming forward You can't do it mid-term but again because the city administrator position is created within the council We can structure that in any way we want within city codes We could do it tomorrow if you know there are enough votes And funds to create that position as long as we don't change the roles and duties of the mayor Did I question? Thank you Thank you very much I'm sorry great presentation a couple questions though This the city administrator model would would free up a mayor To promote the city to be in a much more visible marketing role and the day-to-day management would fall to the city administrators that That's a proper assessment, you know for example on one hand the city administrator could be in in Madison gathering information for The operations of a city for changes in law, but the mayor could be in Madison promoting us the mayor could be in front with businesses You know asking to relocate and and a trust of the day-to-day operations is being complete yet And you probably not gonna have an answer this question, but if of cities that have shifted To a city administrator model Can you make some observations about? Economics, I mean have they been more successful in Recruiting businesses to the community have they been more successful in Keeping a handle on taxes. We get are there are there some hard evidence that this model has been effective from the business perspective There are probably information out there Unfortunately the five weeks that we had that was one area that we had to we researched the roles of other cities But not necessarily How much they cost what their salaries were specifically and the end results of that that would be something though that the committee would Hope we reform the committee so we can answer those questions in more detail. Thank you Thank you In regards to the city administrator is there anything written in the statues as to How many of the council has to vote to let's say remove him if they were dissatisfied with his work I Guess some degree I'll answer the question to my best about ability, but I'll allow the city attorney if I say anything wrong to correct me, please but position is created by the council and For removal that's something that as we're creating the position as we're moving forward We're gonna have to create that we're gonna have to say, you know, I would hate to say it just you know a You know without cause or with anything else to remove it, but it should be responsive to you know to us the city administrator does report back to the council and to and specifically as well as to the mayor however though Creating that position you want to really should have that's why I talked about the job expectations the job duties annual goals Well Personality conflicts may occur if we have very specific duties that need to be accomplished are not being accomplished. That's fairly easy Because we can say, you know, here's your annual reviews. Here's what we ask you to do You agree to them every year. You're not meeting those criteria. We need to move on And that's something that we have to make sure that what before we create that position. We're very strong on our expectations. I Think you indicated that they work under our contract at city administrator Or is it not a year-to-year? That's up to the council to decide if we do a five-year contract Or if we do an at-will type of employee My recommendation would not necessarily be an at-will employee because you probably won't get the best of the best You know for people relocating bring the families here what have you they're gonna have some expectation that They're going to be here at least for a period of time as long as they meet their goals I see you scroll back to that might answer that question correctly Yeah Okay, okay, I know you're going through a member of the committee who did probably more more research than even I have done So I just want to make sure that imagine that correctly. Thank you Thank you madam chair all women reply shouldn't some of the documents I've read and some of the things on the internet I read where some cities have some conflict arise between the city administrator and the city mayor and or the mayor and policies and who administers what and How would the council handle these conflicts and would there be clear-cut guidelines set up? The guidelines are the responsibility of the council is set up up front and To make sure the question is always going to be who do I report to you know if I have a mayor if I have City administrator, who's the ultimate decision maker? The short answer that is the mayor of the council are the ultimate decision makers and in terms of policy decisions Definitely the mayor for overall for the city But because the city minister reports to the common council In most cities, but again, that's how we created up our recommendation would be to be very clear about Who's responsible for specific duties? However, be careful though if we're going to require the city administrator to be responsible of day-to-day operations We should really empower that city administrator to then be in charge of the day-to-day operations And if we create ways around that you're going to take away the power of that person to actually do the day-to-day operations That we're asking them to do but that's that's us as we set forth if we go this direction to set forth thing These are specific duties to do so for example police and fire commission That that's something that the state has statues for that that the city administrator has to be aware of those boundaries The library commission same thing states sets up various Commissions that that there are going to be boundaries set up for there So for the rather boundaries that we either want to impose or not to impose it's up to us to do so So if there is an unforeseen conflict the council could be the final resolver of that one thing we talked about in the In the committee is in dealing with the situation is actually forming either like an executive committee That could be at the immediate respond or to a problem So if there's a conflict that comes up instead of calling all 16 people here There's a very smaller committee probably much like our sex sexual harassment policy where there is a smaller committee that responds first immediately to anything And so we would recommend doing so Having that committee being the mayor the council president at least those two people because that's you know One who is in charge of the city policy and two who's in charge of the other elected officials here so, you know in terms of who actually mediates that I'd I recommend a Again documenting this before we create a position saying this is who will meet at any discussions if nothing's clear Based on these guidelines, they'll make the decision and the decision is final and just one other item I've had several people ask me and perhaps they don't understand the system really But they ask will I be losing any portion of my vote? Well, I will my vote have less power will I have less say so about our government and if you hire a Administrator who is doesn't work out. What's the removal process? Can we hire? Can we unhire him in the middle of? his contract Terms of the vote power if we went to which we do not recommend the city manager position Yeah, I believe in a way you do because you're taking away the executive position of the city from the elected office to the appointed office and one that is That operates underneath the state statutes, so it's much more difficult to create policies on a city administrator position under a contract you would have to be obviously with cause and that again would be within our annual reviews Our annual plans things like that that we sit down and discuss with city administrator If these things aren't being met, then you can certainly do so if you leave it and that will employ then there's greater flexibility but the information regarding the who's in charge and the executive committee and You know who reports to whom actually came from Adam Payne as you know, the county has a very similar situation They don't elect a mayor directly. There is a chief executive office Which is in our case would be the presidents of the County Council and then there is an appointed County administrator with Adam Payne He was one that actually recommended that we that every year we sit down and we create These procedures create these goals So one the city administrator knows what is expected and can follow that plan year to year and to the city council can decide if The city administrator is effective or not or needs to be removed year by year because you know It's very clear of what our expectations are. Thank you any questions from the general public here Yes, mr. Mark. Yes, please Thank you, madam chairman First of all the very first thing that I noticed is this This report was just you by June 30th. Oh nine. I don't know what the hold up was This is very important The reason I say this is You know when you make a document like this and then your form was behind it This Doesn't sit well The city an administrator I agree with the city manager Should not it's not shouldn't not be recommended a city administrator Which when my hometown which is about 120,000 people has worked well for us And the way our elected officials are elected in this city is a popularity contest You don't have to have any education Or you have to be as a resident of the city You can get elected come sit in the chair somebody let's take you to the office And we'll guide you through the procedure One of the all I'm gonna ask how did we ever get Where 85% of our budget goes for salaries and benefits for our employees Then I'm gonna give you a little history when I first moved to this city And we had the first full-time mayor who's demo mutes And as I toured this council and the city hall I asked him about Having five or six employees out of the same plant Being elected as all of them He said yeah, that's that's it's a little problem You can load a council up And that those are all union people two others all of them became mayor for our city But it was kind of a loaded council This is why The city administrator I think is a good idea Because you have to have high qualifications for it Uh The experience would be a definitely a plus We elected a mayor one time that we had to create A job for a city employee to help him Run the city That employee became the highest paid employee of this city We eventually abolished that That position But that's sad In my estimation I think The council still if I'm right, uh, if I'm reading you right, uh, Ottoman Redcliffe Is the council still dictates to the city administrator What the goals are and direct him Or actually mandate that he do carry out their wishes, right? Okay, so he he becomes a ceo Of the city we still have a part time or full-time mayor that runs the meetings. What have you? Okay, but the council still Has the reins. Am I correct? That's correct. Okay. Thank you very much, sir Thank you Just one of the popularity contest winners Fellow popularity contest I've always been kind of concerned about the finance department under a city administrator as being Kind of our check and balance throughout the city on everything And do you have any models where that is that is a separate function? under under a city administrators setup you mean still having a finance director In in existence and city administrator in existence as well as we're looking for independence of the finance department In some structure that you guys I know you didn't have that long to look at every single one of them Just wondering if anything pops into head. Um, nothing specific But it comes down to the fact that as we create the position Within statutes within policy here, we can create that separation Amongst that position as someone that could be a checks and balances as well The big thing is is when we do set up a system though if it's Stands outside perhaps norms and we're looking for someone a very specific Backgrounds a very specific history and their experience is a little bit different than what we're looking for We may not get the best candidates for the area So I don't know per se if that's standard if we still have the chief You know the the finance department or not My my expectation would be that we'll find that most cities who have it still do have a finance director as well, but I that's again something that the the committee if recreated and if directed to move forward with some recommendations specific recommendations I would recommend that we add to that as well to make sure just exactly how does the rest of this The structure look and how do we kind of define who has what power who reports to whom and that's something that that's important And that's why the government structure committee was I think was amply named It wasn't the city's administrator committee It was the government structure committee because all these questions from from ward voting on up to structure of Table of organization to management level and so on these are all things that one would do in a private business as well You would have structured who reports to whom who has checks and balances power And I would definitely recommend doing the same thing as well. It's not a free for all You'd have to have very something strict and guided everyone can fall back upon and say I understand this But this is how I read this interpretation and then implementing some kind of Of review committee Kind of arbiters arbitrates any of those discussions any of those disagreements that may come up Okay, um, we're according to the agenda. We're giving 40 minutes to this presentation. It's 40 minutes now Um, is there anything else? Okay, me or susha Come up please You're gonna get tired of seeing me up here pretty soon. I'll be here next week also in front of the council on a different issue Um, I was not a member of the committee Wish I would have been but I thoroughly agree with their findings I in the no, this is years ago, but I had worked with city managers I had worked with administrators and I find that the administrator form of government Is definitely the way to go for the city of sheboygan our size City managers you've written off. I think that's proper There seems to be more conflict in cities that have city managers between the council and city manager So write that one off city manager is out of the question. I think city administrator All you need is one more vote than the next guy or next woman That's unfortunate, but that's the way the system works Right now we have a system just like that However, I've got to tell you that the with the safeguards built in for hiring a city administrator This is definitely the way to go along with that You must now I know you're gonna think well, it's a hundred thousand a year 120,000 a year We can't afford that and a mayor full-time mayor I say you go to a part-time mayor Which is still elected by the public You couldn't even go to less alderman cut the number of alderman in half And those savings alone May make up the difference now if you cut out the administrative assistant Which you really don't need Underneath administrative under the new proposal you again save Possibly 70 60. I don't know what they're paying these days, but Administrative assistant is not necessary You heard Mr. Inflash talk about Being involved in the negotiations This man is not only Knowing the city management form of government But he also knows about negotiations and would be in on negotiations So again, I don't think we'd have to Job out some of our negotiations that are being done right now. So again the savings I know some of you are thinking just of savings, but it goes beyond that You're going to get an experienced person in that position With the master's degree, whatever it is You have to consider that I've worked like I said with all types of administrators city managers And I have found and you're going to find that in your Documents the old ones when we had these people in town some years ago That the most progressive cities had city administrators You don't need both Maybe the bigger cities you do But a city of sheboygan size you don't need a full-time City administrator and a full-time mayor. There are still jobs for the mayor to do Not only cutting ribbons and shaking hands, but he's going to run the council He's still going to have the veto power That is all still built in now. I know you're going to have to have possibly a charter ordinance change If you go to a part-time mayor So then you vote on that, but I think it's important that you have those thoughts in mind You just don't create a city manager And our city administrator and then and then stay with the full-time mayor That's duplication and it's a waste of taxpayer dollars Thank you If there are no other questions or comments, thank you very much Flesh and thanks again to the committee that put in five weeks of hard labor on this Thank you. We'd like to take a break of maybe three or four minutes. The next group wants to set up So, uh, we'll just take a break and people can leave the chamber if they want for just a few minutes Okay, we'll get back here At 10 to Not ready Just uh, I didn't know we were we're being recorded. We are being recorded. I didn't think we were So everyone alderman, please clip on your microphone or something to get it close to you So the sound carries and I think maybe we need the lighter to off Can you see the uh, yeah, can you see what you need to? All right, okay Mayor ryan's going to leave this present part of the presentation. We'll try to keep to 40 minutes again Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you everybody Um, I'm bob ryan. I am the mayor also the winner of the latest popularity contest This is something that we've been working on For approximately the last four months and what this is is a new table of organization um Basically trying to come up With a with a new model, uh for the city This is this is what we're facing right now Um And and what what we plan to lay out this evening We have our current challenges the underlying logic of this Our suggested changes and the benefits of the change of this table of organization Some of our current challenges, uh, right now we have eight departments reporting directly to myself And that basically takes my attention and and spreads it across a a broad range of operational strategic And strategic aspects of the of the city So basically what we have is strategic tactical and support functions are the are the Three functions of the city and those are spread amongst our various departments in the city What this does with all of our individual departments, which alderman rinflash alluded to With all these individual departments we develop a silo effect Where all individual departments are focusing on their their individual goals and objectives of their own department And we do not have a lot of uh Cross departmental interaction And we do not find a lot of cross departmental synergies and efficiencies Because basically everybody is operating on their own This is A a a version of our present Um table of organization. This is a simplified version of it. We have The mayor and the common council On the top we have both elected officials and City departments that uh that meet uh that basically answer Two commissions parking in transit The library And the water utility all have commissions We have the city attorney the city clerk and the municipal court are elected officials In the city itself, uh, we have a finance director treasurer We have a human resources and labor relations director A planning endowment development director a public works director a city assessor An it director a police chief and a fire chief And all of these individuals The way it is laid out right now answer directly to the mayor and the common council What we are looking to do is to create a separation between the strategic tactical and support functions of the city This will basically improve Cross departmental efficiencies By by having Basically going into three directors in the city Three directors one director in charge of strategic functions technical functions and support functions The idea is to develop a long-term strategic plan, which we have been working on in the city And to realize cross departmental efficiencies and synergies And basically to improve our response time to citizens alderman and city employees alike through many many months of uh of work and Trial and error. I should say This is what we have come up with What we have on the top still are our independent Committees we have the elected officials, which is the municipal court the city clerk and the city attorney What we have in the green in the dark green boxes are our standing committees the city attorney Answers to the law and licensing committee We have labor relations on the top, which I will discuss at a moment We still have our three departments that are independent Departments that are either utilities The library parking and transit they uh, they all answer two commissions What we are looking to do in the city here is we have the mayor and common council that hasn't changed We have a director of administration and finance Underneath that director of administration and finance. We have the city assessor The human resources manager. We're taking the human resources position Changing it from a director's position to a manager's position The the main goal of that is it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a director with two employees If this is this is truly a management position not a director's position when you have two employees under you We have accounting under administration and finance Which also has purchasing and risk management And we have it we had present there previously. We had an it director also We have the we're going to change that position into an it manager Answering to the director of administration and finance And in the same respect that person presently has four employees Will probably never have more than five or six. It's more of a manager's position than a director's position We have our director of development In our development department. We have economic development tourism City planning and zoning and building inspection falling under city planning and zoning The idea of building inspection under city planning and zoning is in order to Rebuild a lot of our aging neighborhoods. It's going to take some zoning changes Right now we have a lot of rundown rental properties We're looking to Basically change the way that we do business in our building inspection department And to to to clean up our inner city To to bring back our neighborhoods and this is why building inspection is going to fall under the zoning department The director of operations and this is the key to this to this organizational chart We have the director of operations under the director of operations. We have The fire police engineering and all of public works The director of operations the fire and the police chief the the goal of the director of operations will be To find synergies between the fire department and police department. The director of operations will not Will not set policy in the fire and police department the fire chief police chief are ultimately still answerable to the mayor and to the fire and police commission. However, when it comes to operational aspects, when we have a fire department and a police department that are a block away from each other, their headquarters, presently, we have in our fire department, we have a mechanic that is also doing all the snow plowing at the fire department, we have a police mechanic down at the city garage. We have right now in the police department, looking at possibly having to hire out snow plowing, or get public works to do the police department. There's still the sidewalks that are in question because we no longer have municipal employees that are doing the janitorial work that used to do the snow blowing and all. It will be the director of operations task to find synergies between those two departments, not with how they do fire protection, not with how they do police protection, not in criminal investigation, but in the operations end of the functions. Engineering is another department that is falling under the director of operations. Presently, engineering is under development. Some people believe that it belongs under development, other people believe that engineering belongs under public works. After considering this, long and hard, I believe that engineering belongs under the director of operations. Engineering has two separate functions. One function of engineering is development and working with development, working with city planning. The other aspect of engineering is working with public works, maintenance engineering, and working with the public works department. If we put engineering under development, then it turns into development engineering. If we put it under public works, it's public works engineering. The idea is to keep it under the director of operations so that it can be shared equally between and where needed between development and between public works. Also, we have public works under the director of operations. We still have Bill Bittner, the director of public works. However, the director of operations, his main function being to find synergies within departments will be to come up with a plan for public works to gain efficiencies in public works. Our public works department right now, as we all know, we have a lot less people than we used to have. Public works has taken a huge hit over the last four, five years on personnel. We need to take the people that we have in public works. We need to get some maintenance programs, et cetera. Director of operations will be tasked with assisting public works and finding those synergies amongst the department in order for public works to run more efficiently. As you can see, the lines drawn from the different directors and the different departments answering to the standing committees. If you look at the key, we have the standing committees. We have the departments in blue reporting to separate boards. We have the elected positions. We have the new position or functions and basically that is the director of operations. And we have, I cannot read the last one, the related positions, or retitled positions, rather, I'm sorry, retitled positions being the director of administration and finance presently. That is our director of finance. Our director of development is still our director of development, obviously. So when we look at this, basically this is not a model that has been used extensively in government. This is not a government model. This is more of a business model. And if it works in the business world, I believe it can work in the government world. The city administrator's position, which was offered to you again tonight, could be something that the council elects to do. I was elected to be a full-time mayor. I've been the mayor for six months. I will be the full-time mayor for another three and a half years. You know, I'm sure people are wondering who's who in this whole scheme of things. Terry Hansen is presently our director of finance. Terry has proven himself in this city with his knowledge, with his experience. Terry will become the director of administration and finance. Perfectly capable of doing the job if anybody has any doubts, you're more than willing to question that. Our director of development is Paul Adenders. Has been our director of development. Will remain our director of development. Our director of operations, rather than going out and putting out a job notice on that, my intention is to promote from within. We have an individual in our city that I have come to know and respect greatly over the last six months has helped me out immensely. And that is our present city assessor, Dave Lutsky. Dave's background is not in being a city assessor. Dave had never been a city assessor until coming back to Sheboygan. Dave moved back to Sheboygan for a reason because he grew up here. He had not lived here in 30 years and he wanted to come back and he took the city assessor's position to do that. Dave's background is in engineering and operations. Dave has been in the corporate world, started out at GE. His most recent job has been with Walgreens, running Walgreens distribution with somewhere around 1,200 to 1,500 employees under him. He is well-schooled in the field of operations. I have come to trust Dave, to know Dave well. Dave can move from being our city assessor to move into the director of operations position. Our city assessor we can promote from within. Our city assessor's department, Dave has taken that right now and through technology, has eliminated two positions in that department. Dave can basically go from city assessor to director of operations. We can promote from within on the city assessor's department and just hire one more person in the city assessor's department. So to me, this makes a lot of sense. What this will do for me personally is this will free me up on a lot of the operational aspects of the city. This will free me up to do what I campaign to do and that is to develop the city, to bring business to this city, to work with our companies, to preserve our, to preserve businesses and to go out through our economic development and bring jobs to our city. That is what I've done in the past is the business world. That is what I am good at. That is what I enjoy doing. Will I still have a pulse on everything else in the city? Yes, I will on a daily basis. This is something that I ask for the council's approval on in order to move the city forward. This is nothing that has happened overnight. Like I say, we've been working on this for four months, maybe more. We've been the mayor for six months. This didn't happen overnight. This makes sense to me. And I welcome any questions. Alderman Hanna. Mayor, would you be opposed in this model to having the director of operations report to one standing committee, perhaps the finance committee and looking at this, just kind of. I would not have a problem with that. Truthfully, the director of operations will be working hand in hand with the mayor. That could be something that as far as, yeah, and I see that right now that administration and finance goes to the finance committee development does also. I could see the operations. That doesn't disrupt your workflow? No, it doesn't. And truthfully, in the operations, and I will be working on a daily basis with the director of operations. I'm not sure who had any light on first. Alderman Bowers. Mayor Ryan, do you have any anticipated increase in costs? The director of operations will be funded independently by the departments under the director of operations. Going to this model, we will actually on the human resources manager, we will save money from what we used to pay the director of human resources. On the IT manager, we will save money from what we had paid a director of IT. Will the director of operations get a pay increase above what the city assessor is making right now? I would think so, but that would be up to our salary and grievances committee. Thank you. Okay. Alderperson Montemier. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Will we have job descriptions for these three positions? Yes, there will be job descriptions for the positions. I know that one concern was the director of operations, especially with the fire chief and the police chief. Before this is passed, obviously there will be job descriptions that will be vetted by the salary and grievances committee. Thank you, and one more question. Now, the assessor, unless I don't remember correctly, does an assessor for municipality have to meet state codes regarding education? Yes. I thought that was a special thing. Do our employees, other than Dave Lutsky, have that special? Yes, we do. We have two employees that have that education. Okay, because it's a special something, a degree or qualification or- We do have, we do have two employees, I believe now that are both qualified. Correct, Dave? Yes. An assessor to certification. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Alderman Wongaman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Mayor, looking at the chart up here, I see where each position is listed as manager, manager, manager, but we get down to public works and he's listed as a director. That is because we presently have a director of public works. It has always been my policy, okay, in my own business life. If you have somebody in a position, the worst thing you can do to that person is demote them. If we have a director of public works, if somebody does not want that director to remain the director of public works, in my opinion, if you're going to demote that person, you might as well fire them. Because if you wanna demoralize somebody in their position, go ahead and demote them. I would rather see somebody fired than demoted. So in other words, people like the police chief to fire chief, their wages would stay the same? Yes, they would. And are there any other people who are now directors who would become administrators? We have right now, we have the HR manager, obviously the city assessor, promoting from within from the city assessor, we can save money on that. The IT manager, which was a director, will be the IT director will become the IT manager. But those two positions are open right now. Other than that, we have our director of development is already a director. Engineering, we have a city engineer who is a department head and will remain a department head. The managers are still department heads, however they are not directors. I had a constituent call me today and she expressed great concern with the director of operations because we're looking at some rather technical positions such as police chief, fire chief, city engineer, et cetera, et cetera, so forth. This director of operations, am I correct in assuming that what you explained before is that he would not really interfere or maybe interfere is the right word, but actually try to run these departments other than- No, he will not run the departments. He will find synergies between the departments, which is something that we've been looking at at city hall here right now. It is why we moved building inspection from the third floor down to the first floor. And then we have city development coming right next to building inspection because building inspection is under development. The director of operations job will be to find synergies within those departments to work with those department heads to work alongside of them in developing these synergies, not to do their job. Apparently there's some great concern among city employees with reference to that question is, are we gonna get somebody running our department that doesn't know what he's doing? No, because the people running the departments are still running the departments. That person is there to find synergies between departments. Very good. But that was the deep concern that some city employees have expressed. If we look, we still have a fire chief, we still have a police chief, we still have a city engineer, a director of public works, a director of development, we still have a city assessor, HR manager, IT manager. But thank you. Alderman Hanna. Yes, mayor. Tell me about the labor relations box. The labor relations box. This is one reason why we are going with an HR manager. What we found in HR, and this is something that we've seen over the years, especially in my short time as the mayor, HR is a kind of a Jekyll and Hyde type of position. You have your human resources end, which your human resources and your benefits end where you're the good guy. And then you have your labor relations end, which you're the bad guy. And one day you have somebody in front of you and you're having to do something for them in a two human resources capacity. And the next day you may be sitting across the bargaining table from them. And it's a very precarious position for an HR manager or director to be in sometimes. What we are looking at right now, especially with where we are in the middle of negotiations with our various departments, with our various unions, is having that labor relations position as a separate portion. And right now we have Tom Rice, who is a contract employee in that capacity. In the future, Tom will be going through this entire labor negotiation. We're not going to switch midstream. In the meantime, we can hire an HR manager, allow Tom to continue in labor relations. In the long run, which I have talked to the city attorney, but this would be way, way down the road, we now have an elected city attorney. As long as Steve McLean is the city attorney, he will remain an elected official because he was elected to do the job. In the long run, we may have a director of legal services that could be the city attorney and also do the labor relations farther down the line. But that's another thing about this. This is not designed to take our present leaders of our city, to take our present department heads and step on their toes. This is designed to assist our present department heads and to move the city along to basically try to streamline things. Okay, Alden and Boren. Thank you, Madam Chair. I've been in on some of the discussions earlier this year on this concept, and I really like the concept, but I think the thing we're gonna have to nail down some of the concerns that Alderman Wongam had is an airtight job description, so everybody knows who's reporting who. I also think salary and grievances, I like some of the previous presentation by Alderman Rindfleisch, some of the qualifications, educational requirements and experience that were in that position. I think salary and grievances has to come up with qualifications for this position, and also ultimately what the salary is gonna be. But I think job description is gonna be very, very important for this thing to work. And that doesn't only go for these three positions. We are presently redoing every job description in the city. We have a lot of job descriptions right now that are dated from the late 80s and early 90s. These are job descriptions before anybody ever heard of a term called Windows. And we have our present acting HR manager has directed all department heads to basically rewrite all job descriptions and bring them up to date. Is there any input from the people that are in the back? Either department heads, employees, citizens, questions? Paulette, have you come up first? And do you wanna use, maybe she wants to use this sound. You wanna use this one? Okay, this is a better mic maybe. This one she uses, Mike, it's better. Thank you. Is it on? Yes, it is, but you speak louder, I think. And yes, this is a little bit difficult for me because typically I support mayors and their decisions and their policies, and Mayor Ryan already knows this, that on this one we did come up with somewhat of a compromise, but I'm not in support of the changes that are proposed to be made in particular to my department. And I have a lot of different notes and I'll try to cover as many as what I can. I think one of the things that stands out is engineering has been in planning for approximately two years. And that was a new change. I would say that it was quite cutting edge, maybe like this in the state of Wisconsin. I've talked to a couple other communities that very much like the concept of having planning, development, economic development, engineering, building, inspection together. There are a lot of synergies in those divisions. It ends up becoming a one-stop shop for both our citizens and our developers. I talked to a developer today and I haven't had a lot of time because I haven't had a lot of information on this, but the one developer said for him, you know, it was a good thing. Probably the one hanging up was when we didn't have a city engineer for a while and Ryan Sasma, our city engineer is not a department head. He's actually a manager in the department. So that where he's reporting to the director of operations, just so you know he's not a department head. There are a lot of different functions that cross over between our divisions that I think create great efficiencies. One of them is just the sheer fact that we're developing the city, we're building the city. We have grants that we write, grants that we administer, grants that are funding, a lot of the infrastructure that you are seeing today in the city. And without that cooperation and that working together, I don't think that we would have that. I don't want to get into, I want to just talk about the structure and not necessarily people or persons, but to have to go and the mayor knows this, I've talked to him about this, for me to have to go to a director of operations to get to Ryan and to the staff, I don't think is very efficient. And I feel that if there's, let's say communication problems, maybe either with a new director of operations or the director of public works, we can work that out and make that happen. And as far as a return on investment, our return on investment is the building of our community and getting this one stop shop. Now that we're immediately adjacent to building inspection, even in the few days that I've been in the office, I can't believe how nice that is to have that closeness and close proximity both from a staff perspective and a client perspective. And we've just had this two years with engineering. And I think if Steve came up and talked, Chad came up and talked, Ryan came up and talked, it's like it's really been working very nicely. And I don't know that, we had like any new department, when you're restructuring them, you may have some bumps in the road, but I think that we've been working through all of those and working very, very well together. I wanted to be democratic. I had both Larry Hill-Blink in building inspection and Ryan in engineering talk to all of the employees. And I'll be honest, all but one thought, you know, okay, maybe I'd be okay with a different structure. Every other one liked the structure that we have. And they've all been willing to work and to change. And I think the mayor's right in building inspection, we really need to get out, look at our properties, focus in on that. And I don't think that there's any issues with doing that. I strongly believe in that. Oh, I'm sorry, why don't you? Hold on a minute, Gisha. Thank you. I think this is a really great structure. It's not innovative, because it's the way virtually every successful business runs. But to apply it the way it was done, I think is great. I like the team setup. I particularly like changing from directors to managers when you have a nice managerial team at the top. I think that's incredibly efficient. Something that maybe hasn't been discussed and actually, not to pick on Paulette, but she was up there. And that's accountability. I was not for, for instance, using what Paulette described, all these departments underneath the director of development. There's no accountability on any of them. I don't care if you're Donald Trump. You can't be, and I've said this to Paulette, so I'm not talking out of school either. You can't be, you can't spend 100% of your time on development, which is what this thing does, and run three other departments. You just can't do it. I don't care who you are. And I think that's an issue, frankly. I think this promotes accountability for each of these departments to do what they were hired to do and what they do best. And to find the cross synergies on expense sharing and things together. I know people don't want to move who they report to or who they don't report to. They probably have various reasons for not doing it, but that would be the case anywhere. And if we never did that, we would have 20 people working in one department that we don't have any longer. You can't, it's great input, but this was also four months worth of input from a lot of people that put this together. So I think the advantage actually over this with the city administrator position is this is less political. These are actually people managing. And I know city administrators get political. You can talk to Adam even at the county. It gets very political for him. These don't have, this team of management doesn't have it, doesn't have politics. As far as breaking up departments and realigning them, I think that will promote accountability. Either we have our streets cleaned or we don't. Either we have development or we don't. And we can't have them cleaned our streets because I've got three other departments that report to me that take my time away. These people will be focused more on their positions. And I particularly like, and this is the time to do it because we have so many openings. I really like this going to managers instead of directors. Because as people know who get involved with the city, we just have directors. We have deputy directors. And then managers that are eat those deputy directors. There's a, it's like a multi-layer cake. And this really cleans that up. I think it's a step perhaps toward a lot of the goals that were presented by Elder Person Rindflesh. I think it meets a lot of those goals and kind of tailors it to the city. So I think that's, I know you guys put a lot of work into it. And I think it's well thought out. Okay, are there, okay Alderman Hanna has one more statement. Thank you. I completely agree with Alderman Born that this hinges on strong job descriptions and delineation of reporting structure in particular with the director of operations with those groups that are underneath him. It's, there's going to take, it's going to really take some craftsmanship to get that, to work, to get the synergies. What I'm particularly pleased with is the way that I think our standing committees work very well. And the way that you have woven the standing committees into the, into the organizational structure I think is real important. Cause I think that, that really helps with communication and reinforces and checks and balances. All right. Thank you very much. We still have some comments. We're coming on an hour and a half and this meeting and we have a schedule or the agenda said, you know that we'd be wrapping this up in 90 minutes. So we have some quick comments. Yeah. Do I, so there's two people that want to speak. Is that, do you want to do that yet? Okay, Marge, do you want to come up first? Well, no one will hear you if you don't want to be recorded. Use the microphone please. Yeah. Yes, please. I had three questions for the mayor. The one thing is that you said that the city assessor will become your operational person. Okay. And that somebody from within would be promoted to the city assessor. And then you had mentioned something about a hiring of another person but I thought a hiring freeze was in place that we wouldn't be able to hire anybody. Am I correct? Yes. Yes. No, it is not. Thank you. The hiring freeze is in effect for the entire city. Okay. Okay, however the council at any point, it's not like since we've had a hiring freeze in effect, nobody has been hired. Okay. If you know what I mean. Okay. If we no longer have, which we've already eliminated a couple of positions in the city assessor's department. If the city assessor is now to leave and we promote them within, I think then we're up to three positions in that department. Obviously, at some point you have to get, if that person is moving up to city assessor, we're going to have to hire another person with an assessor's two license for that department. Okay. Question number two, what is gonna happen to our deputy directors? If you're gonna have all of this, you have like David Bebel, who's deputy director of public works. What is gonna take place with him? The only deputy director out there right now is David Bebel, the deputy director of public works that I'm aware of. And that would be something to be worked out in the department of public works between the director of operations, the director of public works and the deputy director of public works. Okay. Question number three, when you are putting some of these into operational director or manager, whatever you're calling them, that they're gonna get raises because they were gonna get more responsibility. Now, Paulette Enders, who has taken on a lot more responsibility and she has gotten raises concerning this, are you not gonna take money away from her? I do not believe in demoting people myself, no. Okay, who would have, I don't know how to put it the right way. The director of operations will be basically funded by a portion coming out of every department under that director of operations. Okay, as far as Paulette Enders goes, the director of development, she will remain our director of development. The only thing that is leaving the department of development is engineering, which we still have a city engineer and always have. Okay, and if I may answer the question regarding engineering. Of course, the development wants to keep engineering under development. Public works would love to have engineering under public works. The way I see engineering working most efficiently is to have part of engineering working on development and part of engineering working under public works on maintenance engineering. This is what makes sense for engineering rather than having, if we give engineering to public works, then development's going to say we don't get enough. We give it to development, public works says we don't get enough out of engineering. This is the solution. Okay, but since you're taking away those responsibilities that she now has. She will still have responsibility with engineering because a lot of engineering will still be working with development. Okay. And public works will also be working with engineering. So where does the operational person come in then? The operational person comes in to find those synergies to get those people all working together and to gain efficiencies. That's the whole idea. If we didn't need efficiencies in the city, why have a director of operations? If our city is operating so efficiently now, if our operations are so efficient, we don't need a director of operations. I get it to you, there's not one department in our city that can not become more efficient. That is the whole purpose of this. Why can we not do that then without an operational? Because right now we have a bunch of silos which was the TO before this. So what you're saying is some of these department heads are not doing the jobs that you want them to do? No, they are all running their departments just fine. The director of operations will find synergies between these departments, which is not unlike what we're doing in city hall here moving people around that people are going to be working together. And thank you, Marge. You are more than welcome, Mr. Mayor. Okay, one more statement from Lee Montemire. I'll try to be brief. Okay, thank you. Madam Chairman. Mayor, I'm not opposed to change. I think it's great. What I am opposed to is I haven't seen none of these documents that you have some place. I don't know where they came from. The public doesn't- What documents would that be, Lee? This table of organization that you have here. That's it. Okay, what I'm saying is it's kind of hard for the public to say in 40 minutes you want to make this change with 10 minute discussion. Lee, this is an initial presentation. I know it's a presentation. I don't want to debate with you, okay? What I'm asking you is to hold this, at least 30 days so everybody can see what you're trying to accomplish, okay? One of the things that I do have a problem with is the engineering taken out of the redevelopment directors thing because if you remember one of the things that happened to our city, when we develop other lands on the south side on the west side is we develop all that land, put in 15 inch storm sewers, they needed to be twice that size. That's what happened when you don't have the right place, you know, the right peg in the right place. You could have done this, we could have done this, not your fault. I'm talking about their organization many years ago. This is what happened. That was a big fiasco there. You have to agree on that. That's the reason I'm saying that you ought to hold this for at least 30 days, come back to the committee of the whole, then try. Okay, Lee, if I may answer your question, we are not looking to institute this this evening. This is the committee of the whole. This is not the common council making this decision tonight. This is a presentation to the public and the committee of the whole. This is not a decision to be made tonight anyway. But you asked for an approval, that's the reason I'm asking, I'm saying that you should hold this. I'm here to present this. The committee of the whole can not approve this. They cannot, the common council passes it. I'm not here to base her. Okay, thank you. Mayor Ryan, did you wanna finish something up? Yeah, if I may say one thing. I can see some people's reservations with this. What we have to remember is change is not a four letter word, change is not a bad thing. Change must happen in order for progress to be made. And this is, like I say, this is not a fly by night operation. We've been working on this for many months. This has taken many different forms. And this is what we've come up with after approximately four months of work. I believe in this, I believe in 100% in it. I'm willing to stand behind any questions that anybody may have. Because I believe in this 100%. I think this is the future of our city. This will give me the ability to do what I ran to do, which is to develop the city. This will give us the opportunity to become efficient, to become operationally efficient in this city, which is where we need to be. We can't continue to operate the way we are because we're gonna hit a brick wall. We're not going to have any more money next year than we had this year. We're going to have less. And it looks like an 11 will even have less. Between now and then we have to find the efficiencies to get this city running with less money. We're going to have no choice. So we have to remember the change is not a bad thing. This is designed to do just that. To gain efficiencies in our city and to allow myself to concentrate not only on that, but on the development of our city for our future. So that's about all I have to say and thank you for your time. Thank you, Mayor. Our job as a group on the last part of the agenda, it says recommendation to the common council. Does anyone have some idea that you want to put forth on some idea of how to work with all the information we received this evening. It was presented this evening and it was discussed. How we want to go forward on this. I do think we do have to respond to it. We can't just say it's very nice and go home. What is the next step that we feel we need to do as a group either sending something to council or putting something in a committee or something else. I think we need to bring out some ideas. I think all the person months, we are might be first on this. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think Alderman Rindfleisch requests that we start that committee, continue with that committee. I think that's a good idea. Okay, and that's regarding the study of the city administrator recommendation. Do you need a motion for that or what action would you like for that? We could have a motion right now because that's been requested of us to. Yes, please. I would like to do that. We're behind the schedule on that. So we're making that motion. Yes. Alderman Sirk is seconding the motion to continue with the study on the development of a city administrator structure, city structure, government structure. Any discussion on that? There's a person second on that. Yes, Alderman Rindfleisch. Thank you, Madam Chairman. As past presidents of the committee chair, just a bit of information that the committee does not actually exist. It cannot just be reformulated. We actually have to create the committee, create what we did in the past to the structure who was on it. Did we have public people on there again? Who's the people on there again? It could be a similar document simply saying, create a document saying the same people if desired. I don't know if the same committee members are interested or not. The other thing though is the name of it really is the government structure committee. If this type of structure is in place, the change as the mayor said is not a four letter word. The great thing about the city administrator of the government is that we dictate what a city administrator is. And if the council decides to go in this particular direction, there's a reason not to. It still falls within what we're looking for, professional management. But to echo some discussions in the past that we definitely need to make sure that the salary agreements are active in that process because those job descriptions are going to be absolutely key. What are the requirements? What educational background do we need for each one of those positions? What are the salaries going to be? So while I'm definitely not opposed to recreating that committee, I think it's up to the council to decide what is the structure of the committee. But I would definitely ask that we add some members of the mayor's office, the salary agreements committee to do that as well. And I think that might be an appropriate place to refer this table to. I guess the other point of order is that while we have a document under number four, which is resolution 240809, there is no document to be referred according to our agenda. Whereas I think though that really isn't a difficulty if we create a place, a resource to discuss this either to salary agreements as it exists or a new government structure committee for this to go to. But I don't think we can really take action on this presentation. We can simply make a recommendation to the council about a broader, the one document, file it, do whatever on 240809 and create a committee to hear those changes would be appropriate. All right, are you making them? Well, we have one motion, resolution on the floor right now. So we can't do another one yet. Alderman Gysher. Thank you. Just an idea, we do have a committee in place for this kind of stuff or for things like this that I think contains every standing committee chair which would encompass your salary and grievance stuff. And that's the strategic fiscal planning committee that we wouldn't have to recreate. It's not like the committee is gonna go through all the same data that the previous committee put together, that data, that work was done. We have this and that might be an all-encompassing alternative that already exists and is in place to handle things like this. Just a thought. Alderman Boren. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm in full support of this rather than the city administrator. However, I think it's very important if we're gonna send it to strategic physical planning or salary and grievance, although the chairman of salary and grievance is on strategic fiscal planning, but it's ultimately just super important that we nail down the job description and the qualifications and the salary range. That's the only thing, I think it's great the way it's set up, but we have to nail down those things by either the salary and grievance committee itself or strategic fiscal planning. Are you talking about this? The resolution is not about this. The resolution is about the city administrator. That's about this one here, the first show. Well, I can speak to that. I'm not gonna support going to the city administrator form of government, but I will support this with the caveats that we gotta nail down the loose ends on it. Okay. All right, speaking to the resolution, that's on the floor. I thought we had a motion. Well, I mean a motion, yeah. Speaking to the motion that's on the floor, we're discussing the motion that's on the floor on Alderman Renfleisch. Do you have something, is Alderperson Kittleson have something about this too? You were first, I think. Okay, Alderperson Kittleson, how about the motion on the floor? The motion on the floor. I guess I'd like to hear it again. The motion on the floor is to is to follow through and continue the study for city administrator to develop as they have on their resolution here to develop such ordinances and salary scales and things that are needed for this position. Sure. To assign it to a certain group. And would we want to send that to the strategic planning committee for further study? I don't think that was the motion. No, they didn't say that in it. This is just a comment saying that. But that's not the, but Gina, I think that her motion that she disagreed. All the person, Montami, or you want to repeat what you just. Because that particular committee did so much work and they knew how far they got and they knew which questions they were not able to explore in which, and they needed more answers on some of the things. I would, my motion is to recreate that committee with as many as those same members as possible because they would know where they left off and what answers they should be looking for. To continue that study. Yes. Correct. Okay, and that's not as far as I was mentioning. Okay. I would second that. Well, it has been seconded. Okay. We're just doing this discussion on this motion. And you have something to say. Please, I'm going to vote no on it because I think strategic fiscal planning is the place to be. I think that's what it's for. It's for strategy. It's for fiscal planning. And it contains all the elements that all the person Ryan Flesh mentioned that's needed, and others have mentioned needed to come to some sort of conclusion. The data is already there on the stuff. I think that's where it belongs. That's the only reason I'd be voting no on it because I think it really does need to go to strategic fiscal planning. All of them in reply. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to respond to the questions before, regarding strategic fiscal. I think if the committee decides to analyze and implement this, strategic fiscal is definitely the place to go. I mean, decisions have obviously been made. We're looking at how this works, opening discussion to see how to make this works. I think it's most appropriate that way. However, if we are to continue city administrator position, there's just one thing I want to point out is when we create that position, it was felt that it was vital to have public input. Some representatives of our greater society within the city, to research and study this form, structure form of government. That is obviously one thing that strategic fiscal would not have is public input. Outside of public speaking on that, we actually had committee members that were responsible for gathering information as well. So I'm gonna vote yes on the motion to create the government structure committee. We're free, we have no budget. There's no expenses to the city for our time to be on that committee. Because beyond just the city ministry position, if you look at the appendicitis that are in there, there's a lot of other areas that we can find savings within city government, within the elected side or otherwise as well. We would definitely like to pursue those goals as well. Plus, will be a resource that there actually can be citizen members on that board as speaking as well. However, if the direction, if this committee desires to go this process instead, while I still like to see the city, the government structure committee back in form, I think you are right, strategic fiscal can weigh the merits of this, really two separate issues, I think. Okay, all right, where time is moving along here. Alderman Bauch. Thank you, Madam Chair. Couple of thoughts. One is there are probably two different timelines here. I think this mayor has asked us to approve this plan so that he can execute it while he's the mayor. This will help him execute his plan as mayor more efficiently. So I think that whatever we need to decide and to learn more and for the public to learn more, we should probably put this on, and I don't mean the word fast track because it's a done deal, but the decision-making process for this should probably be put on a fast track. Whereas I think we probably all need to learn a whole lot more about the implications and stuff that great work, by the way, Eric, on that, your presentation. That's great stuff we need to be learning. I have great confidence that if Alderman Ryan Fleisch reconstitutes that group, they can learn enough so that on a different timeline, we can implement that. We've got Mayor Ryan for the timeline that we've got him and that gives us some breathing time on this other plan. So a couple of thoughts. One is, I think we as a team can move this forward faster so this mayor can get his work done with this structure. And two, Alderman Ryan, I ask Alderman Ryan Fleisch, if there's anything, any guidance he would want from this body about what is it, what are our questions, what would we want him to bring back for us to be able to actually make decisions on whether we would want to move forward with his plan for the city administrator. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, thank you. Alderman Born, okay. Mayor Ryan. Thank you, Alderman Bout kind of spoke my mind there. Obviously on the city administrator, if the council so chooses to go that route, that is a long-term objective. This, I do not want to be tied up for six months as people are throwing around city administrator. If the council chooses city administrator in the future, that would be up to the council. I'm looking to institute this in order to do my job. Thank you. All right, let's keep house here and on the motion to move the city administrator further with further discussion and a committee with public input to be structured. All those in favor? Okay, roll call vote. Okay. Yes, yes, Alderman Wynne-Flesch. Are you there? Yeah. I'll just respond to the questions that were posed to me. Claire, frankly, there's a lot of information that the government structure committee could look at. I think if we vote to restructure that committee to look at those questions, we do need some guidance. We had very specific guidance last time around. At this point in time, it's probably not the opportune place to discuss that. What I recommend is if committee does this committee does decide to recommend to the full council the restructuring of that. The committee's restructured. We bring back ideas to the full council for approval before we move forward. Otherwise, we can be discussing for years and not getting anywhere. So yes, we would need that. But if the council votes that way, we'll, whoever's on that committee, I'd say recommend come back with ideas about what we'd like to discuss for approval, so we're not wasting our time. Second of all, echoing the comments, change happens all the time. This isn't a debate between one form or the other form, quite frankly, and I think people are feeling that way right now. We're doing a city administrator or we're doing this. That's not the case. The government structure committee is looking specifically at making those synergies and efficiencies that the mayors are talking about right here. Is this the same structure that the committee recommended? No. Is it a structure that fits many of our recommendations? Yes. So one doesn't have to be for or against either one of these issues. It's if you're looking to make some changes, go ahead, let's make some changes. If we're looking at long-term changes for generations beyond, we can do that as well. Because as Bob mentioned, we have a full-time error regardless, it's for another three and a half years. And so changes can't be made anyway with what the government structure committee will be looking at. So we can do both is what I'm saying. Just a policy order though, again, because there's no document under number five. I would ask that the chairman of the strategic fiscal committee simply announce a date and put it on the agenda since we really can't refer a document. That would also save some time because there is no document to refer to the council that we could start at any time. There's no referral of a committee. Because there is no document listed on the agenda. So that can just be simply created, put on the agenda and discussed. Okay. Let's, can we get the motion going on the city administrator and then let's do the TO and then we can talk about how we handle that officially or legally or whatever we need to do. So let's have a roll call vote. And this is to recommend to the council to forward this document back with the resolution to be followed through with a special committee appointed. We call the roll. Yeah. Form. No. Volk. Aye. Bowers. Aye. Gisha. Aye. Hannah. Hydeman. Aye. Pat. Aye. Kittleson. Aye. Tyunus. Aye. Montemayor. Aye. Blind flesh. I have to vote. Sir. Aye. Vanderbilly. Aye. Who? Aye. Wongaman. No. Thirteen Ayes. Two Noes. Okay. Carries. Okay. Alderman Gisha would like the floor. Because I agree with that, that's why I changed my mind. One is long term, one is short term. I'd like to make a motion to refer these documents and under six, I think we have all the cover we need on the agenda. These documents to the strategic fiscal planning committee for further discussion and possibly bringing something back to the council. Vice documents, we're speaking of this TO diagram. TO. Correct. And that's all we have. Okay, it's been moved and seconded to refer this back to the council. Well, no, the strategic fiscal committee. It's hard to say that. Yes, it is, for their development and study. Any discussion on that? Wonderful. Let's take a roll call on this. Okay, and I would be to refer this to the strategic fiscal plan. Vote. Aye. Bowers. Aye. Gisha. Aye. Hannah. Aye. Kott. Aye. Kittleson. Aye. Playunas. Aye. Montemayor. Aye. Ryan Flush. Aye. Serp. Aye. Banerley. Aye. Hu. Aye. Wongaman. Aye. Thank you. Born, I'm sorry. I was trying to do it like Sue Richard does it. I just forget. Don't quit your game job. Yeah, right. Okay, 15, aye. Okay, I think we've literally moved some mountains maybe tonight. No, in terms of the future of the city, I'm not sure we're moving in some new directions. So I think there's nothing else. So we'll adjourn. Motion to adjourn. Okay, thank you very much for all your time.