 Hello and welcome back. Those of you who have made it back from lunch, we've still got plenty of stragglers but we're going to get on with it. I know you've had a packed and busy morning but similarly this afternoon it's going to be full of debate. So starting with democratising the economy plan to take control. We have got a slight change to advertise. Sadly it's Liz from the Centre for Thriving Places, it's Paulette. Thankfully Emily Cork, Head of Memberships at Cooperatives UK, is stepping in to the conversation. She's joined by Sarah Longlands, who's the Chief Exec of Clared. We've got Ollie Wilson, who is just starting Beyond the Music Co-op. We will be joined by the screen from Andy Street, the Mayor of the West Midlands. I'm going to hand over to one of the best moderators, I know no pressure, but over to John Robb. Thank you everyone. Thank you Rose. Good afternoon everybody. So let's get going with the panel. First I want to ask you Sarah, so can you explain Cles and how much more democratisation the whole process of it. I'm into a bit of demystification here today to understand what these terms are and what roles they do. And also the upsides and downsides of all these things as well. Thanks John and thanks to Cooperatives UK for the invitation this afternoon. It's really good to be here and I'm really looking forward to hearing some of the questions and debate after. Cles is the Centre for Local Economic Strategies, we were set up back in the 1980s and we're based here in Manchester. We are a champion for radical economic change through local delivery. For us that's about economies that generate good lives for people, for place and for planet. We talk a lot about building wealth for communities, building community wealth. We like to think of ourselves as one of the UK centres for community wealth building in the UK. We do work across the UK and especially in Scotland and Wales at the minute. I think where we start from on that journey around community wealth is that too many people feel at the mercy of the economy. It's something that's done to people rather than with them. I was in the social care session just before lunch and you really see that in something like social care. That extraction of wealth from people in order to fund profits of big capital. What we want to do, what we try to deliver on the ground is to get wealth flowing into communities and not relying on outdated ideas like trickle down or property development where money gets locked up and frozen. But it's about getting the economy back in the hands of people. It's about a generative economy. It's about money circulating in a place. It's about ethical business practice. It's about using the wealth that we have got and we've got loads of wealth in this country. Using that wealth to really do much, much more. For example organisations that have their base or their foundation in a particular town or city. What can they do to really ensure that they're raising standards that they're leading by example? For example paying people a decent wage, giving people a proper contract and putting that money back into a place. That's what we're all about. We were talking before the panel and you were saying you live in Bolton. Any Boltonians out there? It's like a lot of towns. The centre of Manchester is booming and you can feel the energy here. But those surrounding towns and going further and further out, there's a feeling of being disconnected. The ideas that you're talking about here, do people know about these ideas? Do they know how to access these ideas? And so how can they access these ideas? Well, I think, I'm happy to admit that it's still a work in progress. I think people instinctively, when you talk to people in Bolton, people instinctively feel that something has gone wrong with their economy, that they don't feel that they have a sense of control over their own lives. And that's not really surprising because when you look at the challenges, the real pain out there, particularly in Greater Manchester and places like Bolton but also Oldham and so on. People find it really struggling to pay their rents, they're struggling to pay their energy costs, they're struggling to get good health and social care for their family. I think people instinctively feel that there's something that's gone wrong, that is not working right and that they have very little control over it. They don't know almost sometimes where to turn to deal with it. And I think that sense of being sort of disabled from the system is something that, I think you see a lot in places like Bolton and I think it also asks big questions of democracy and devolution as to how we can use new forms of democracy to really involve and enable people a chance to participate in the process. How would you like to see these ideas get to people? Would it even be something as radical as making part of the education system? Potentially. I think politically we've lost a lot of the, what we need is opportunities for people to have the conversations for activism to emerge and I think we've lost a lot of those opportunities. So I think there's something about political education definitely. But I think there's also all the stuff that the co-ops movement do as well where you're actually demonstrating to people we had a challenge, we had a problem but we got together, we made something happen and we're doing it for ourselves and I think there is something powerful about that example rather than someone like me or MP or something you've pontificated and I think it's more about people actually helping each other and showing that it doesn't have to be like this. There are alternatives and if we support each other and we work with each other we can make stuff happen but I think that's difficult at the minute when people are dealing with a lot of pain in their everyday lives. I mean when you take these ideas out to people, I mean I guess imagine at first people go oh I didn't know this kind of thing existed and then there's the next question how do I do it? I mean what kind of information do you feel has to be taken to people? Well I think there's, I guess part of it is just awakening that sense that people can do something. For me it's all about agency. We were just talking about this before we came on about it. You think back to the Rochdale pioneers, what gave them the kind of gumption to go ahead and set it up to make it happen, to raise the mummy and we were talking about what we thought might be behind that but it's something which gave them the agency, the ability to do something about the challenges they face, not just sort of sink into a sense of hopelessness about it but actually to get out there and drive and strive for something better for their families and their communities and I think it's about giving people a sense that it is possible showing examples of where it is going on and also giving people the opportunities, whether it's in community centres or it's in the pub or it's in shops, giving people a chance to actually meet talk about this stuff and awaken that sense that it doesn't have to be like this we can do something, if we do it together it's going to be even better. Celebrating the successes and demystifying the process. Yes, exactly. So what do we need to make co-ops thrive for them? Well I think following on from what Sarah said is very much, sometimes it's scary and sometimes we need to, I think you're going to come on and talk about your new co-op, it's not always easy, it can be daunting. In what kind of ways? Just because it's a lot of unknowns. It's a lot of unknowns and I think some people are maybe used to having had things done to them or for them and this is very much about taking responsibility which can be really empowering but at the same time really quite scary you are taking responsibility for something. You might not fully understand what that means and so I think in terms of what makes them strive it's exactly what you were saying it's about you're not doing this on your own this is a collective endeavour, you're coming together to do something that's going to improve not just your lives but your community's lives your members' lives and I think we were just talking earlier that often the people that want to set up co-ops they don't know how to run businesses but they understand values, they understand that they have a problem that they need to fix but we almost expect them to be business people immediately once they've set up a co-op and so I think in terms of how they strive it's not doing this on your own, there's lots of support out there and it's recognising that you do need support Cops UK and Clairs and lots of other organisations have got support there's many of them here today, co-op development workers and practitioners in the community at grassroots level that can provide that support and I think it's about sharing those stories and principle 6 in action which is co-operation amongst co-ops and offering that peer support it is about demystifying the process and helping people to see what the benefits are going to be So like a co-op of co-ops, co-operating Yeah absolutely, that's when co-ops work best when they co-operate with each other, when they support each other when they share their stories and what will work well for them and not so much then the next person is going to make the same mistakes Is that a seamless kind of process or is it like anything in life with human beings it stops and it starts, bits work, bits don't work Yeah absolutely and I guess in terms of which ones strive it's the ones that can actually carry on and keep on taking it forward some won't be able to do that, it will be too big for them and so yeah I think it stops, it starts you have setbacks but I think that taking back control over your own lives when you feel like it's all been taken away from you and doing something for yourself and for your community obviously that's often what helps you to get to where you need to get to I was saying you know when you speak to people they're thinking of setting up co-ops do people feel like they can't do it is your lack of confidence in the UK? Well I think number one is not enough people know what a co-op is and so they may be not immediately thinking I want to set up a co-op it's I've got a problem or my community's got a problem or I want to take control of where I live, how I work and they might not immediately think that of a co-op they might not even know what it is and so in terms of say the ownership hub or the business support programme that COPSI K runs that is very much about making sure that people know what a co-op is if you think it's for you then what the process is that you actually need to go through and specifically with the ownership hub is about concentrating that support in an area so that you can really see that difference because once you've set up one in an area then you'll see another one and they do become a thriving place So what do you mean by ownership hub? The ownership hub is a programme that we COPSI K runs jointly with Employee Ownership Association is designed to stimulate co-ops say by concentrating support for co-ops in a place we've been running one in South Yorkshire we've recently launched one in Greater London and I think we're going to have a video shortly where we're going to be announcing that the next one will be in the West Midlands and that will focus on creatives and culture that historically co-ops thrive around creatives and culture because these are people who want to take control of their lives their own, the provision of their services and so on The video we're talking about is Andy Street, the West Midlands Mayor and also you've been helping there to get that set up on you so do you want to explain that now before we go to the video? He can't be here because he's on his holiday I don't want to go to the video Do you want to go to the video and sort of debrief afterwards? Okay cue the video Hi there Andy Street Mayor, the West Midlands here and delighted to be able to say a few words for the co-ops UK Congress in Manchester I thought that you would like for me to look at the bodies, the spirit of the co-op in the civil bank as well so my mother-in-law is a youngster and of course my personal stream is of understanding the through the employee ownership piece of John Lewis perhaps the biggest social enterprise in Britain where I was lucky to be the boss for a number of years so it's deep in all of us here I'm also really pleased to say that it's not yet finally confirmed but I'm fully expecting the cash that we've kept wealth gains yes an underspend can you believe it about £70m the underspend on our games some of that will be being used specifically to support the social economy something we've long wanted to do in the West Midlands have a specific fund I'm optimistic that we'll finally confirm in the next few weeks so I hope what you take from that is our utter endeavour here in the West Midlands to be part of your goals, ambitions, values I do know that the heart of what you do is a better way of doing business thanks very much for all you do to lead them talk about the weather in Manchester it's like a hurricane so he's set in the scheme of the West Midlands do you explain what he's actually doing there and your role in it I've never been so pleased for subtitles in my life the ownership hub we have excuse me already in South Yorkshire and Greater London and the West Midlands one it's very much about connecting existing support that is already within that place so the local authorities business advisers and it's focused on setting up or converting organisations to employees owned or worker owned primarily but also looking at how you can bring in a wider stakeholder base and so it's about offering training, advice and networking for those organisations and concentrating that in a place to see what difference it can make when it's in one place is this all over the West Midlands or is it a city centre thing only or is it going out to the outlying towns or what's... Rolls is doing this it's all over the West Midlands yeah, yeah, yeah cos I think that's really important we've got to get these ideas outside to the people needing them absolutely and you really it should be to the people that wouldn't ordinarily get involved in stuff like this wouldn't even think about it for them so it's really important that there's a real diversity in terms of the people who are involved in it and that's why it's so important to make sure that we're not just coming in as an organisation or a programme and telling that area what to do it's about working with the infrastructure that's already there to enable this and to provide funding and the support so in a sense they're telling you what they want and you're facilitating it or helping to create space to make these things happen and it's again the same problems you get to these places and people don't understand these ideas or how they work or even there's a possibility to do things in a different way yeah, absolutely and that's why it's so important to be able to concentrate in that one particular area they can learn from one another they'll hear the messages in different places so they won't feel, as I said earlier as alone as if they're doing it themselves I think it's a much more collective way of doing this and I think, I'm sure you see it with Clairs as soon as you do something in a place and it's concentrated you stimulate the people who work the people who live there to make change, to do things differently and that's what we hope the ownership hub in West Midlands will do This is not the first you talk about the scheme of a place you've reset up like this South Yorkshire, that's about 18 months in I think So how's that going, the process 18 months down the line, is it getting results? It's getting results in terms of it's generating those conversations and those discussions we've been embedded within the local authority which again means that we're not just coming in and then moving out and nothing changes we're going in to the local authority we're working with their business support workers we've been working with Sheffield Card Development Group the Card Development Workers in the area to be able to look at what's the current support and then what can we bring, how can we add to that So yeah, really it's still early days I guess but the greater London one will learn from what we did in South Yorkshire and I'm sure the West Midlands one will learn from London too It's interesting because obviously Andy is a Tory mayor so this is not part of political is it this is just a good idea that can work in any environment Absolutely and as Andy said obviously he was involved with John Lewis which is an employer-owned organisation and as I said earlier the employer association is involved in South Yorkshire within the ownership hub and in the others so no it's not part of political and it's demonstrating the values and the difference it can make when you involve your employees and your wider stakeholders in the running of your business Would different political affiliations have different takes on what they would want from a co-op movement or is it basically they see the sense in as a model for anybody like we said it's beyond ideology I would like to say it's beyond ideology Cots UK is you know we are not party political and so we will work with we will work with the Conservative Government we'll work with Labour mayors we'll work with anyone in terms of ensuring that we get the right results for those places and for those areas that's what's more important and it is you know when we're talking about privatising economy it's around it's about the people and that's who we need to be fighting that support to and not getting caught up in all of the politics that goes alongside it Also not just politics but different cultures so Ollie you're setting up a music event bringing back a mansion like a back in the day you have Europe's leading music conference showcase event which is called In The City and now you're bringing back well created a new one called Beyond The Music with a co-op model it's an interesting twist isn't it? Exactly yeah so yeah picking up the legacy of something from the 90's that was done very well here in Manchester but built on demand basically for the music industry they need a forum to debate what the hell's going on it's an existential crisis at the moment from an artist's perspective the industry just completely doesn't work also from demand from the city of Manchester for something like Beyond The Music that's happened we launched a couple of months ago at South by South West first event here in Manchester this October three day international music conference and a joined new music festival and yes as you say John we're incorporating as a cooperative you know we want to forge new alliances in the music industry the music industry is a place where people usually don't really talk to each other but we're finding through the cooperative framework and actually we can bring people together and solve some of those really big strategic issues that the music industry is facing at the moment I mean do you think is the music industry a reflection of ways society is as a whole or has it got its own specific problems different problems I think so yeah because a lot of the stuff you were saying Sarah I'm like yeah you could copy that and paste it into the life of an artist or somebody working in the music business you know it just works for the few people at the top really and certainly from an artist perspective the whole system needs a reset so it's definitely mirrored going on in life in any kind of strand or lateral of our life and you know there's demand for change so we're introducing the cooperative model into the music industry this has been done in other places with labels et cetera but there's not been a conference that does that yet and it's been really really interesting actually you know as I said we have our first event this October so we're everyday speaking to lots of different stakeholders in the music industry and there's actually a lot of mystification around what a co-op actually is and we're actually having to be very very slow with people in bringing them into an understanding as to what a co-op is and what we're trying to do it's totally bizarre but I went down to London last week and spent a couple of days doing lots of meetings and the comment that came back to me and I never said this I never used these words but people are like I love this, it's this non-profit event it's gonna da da da da the not-for-profit thing coming back to me so I think people have a perception of co-ops as just being a generally good idea and akin to a non-profit but they don't really understand what it is or how it works Can you explain that in the context of beyond the music the idea that it is not not for profit is it obviously people get paid don't they you'll say you go to London and people think you're doing some kind of charity Well people in London don't understand not for profit anyway do they, the whole content has to be honest sorry anyone from London here but yeah to explain the concepts of a non-profit in music of course everybody gets paid especially artists need to get paid and everybody who's working beyond the music needs to get paid but the profit above and beyond that is gonna go back into our digital programmes of which we have three which is gonna foster the next generation of Manchester music legends and also support grassroots venues around the city region I mean you've done a lot of work as well beyond beyond the music company you know working with people on the streets and stuff like that so and those ideas I guess you picked up there are influential what you're doing here now music has to be joined on to the real world don't it I suppose so but I've always been a socialist from birth really so yeah you know I've run a socialist enterprise for the last five years called Peace Meal we turn waste food into amazing meals for people in need in Manchester sadly we shut down a month ago thanks to the energy companies but we'll be back for the winter and yeah it does inform what I'm doing with Beyond the Music I'm not a big one for private profit and running off to my yacht in a weekend you know I think that we need to reinvest in our cities and particularly in music when people do reinvest in their cities the effect is enormous so a really great example is Patrick Records in the 80s and perhaps not the 90s they probably broke by then but certainly 80s they pay their roses to the city a current example is Michael Addex who's H's manager he runs NQ Live which is a management company they do really well based in East Manchester I should say they do really well the last few years and they went and bought a big school house and converted into studios and they now employ dozens of young people in Manchester in the music business so I think the cooperative model is so powerful in music because it's just like any other industry at the moment it's centralised and all the money's at the top NQ is a brilliant example of how music actually works I mean of course there's employing people, some powering people giving people hope outside of normal circles they've gone right into East Manchester which is normally ignored quite a lot and actually got into the youth there so I think they're a great example of how to do a model kind of right so that's part of the process of what you're doing here as well isn't it Totally and you know the mad thing is being an artist or being in a band or running a club now you're in a cooperative anyway but it's just like an informal cooperative so I think that we're shouting about that and opening people's minds in the music business hopefully they can formalise these informal cooperatives and you know pave the way for new business models in Manchester and further abroad How would you formalise an informal cooperative would you actually say look we're a co-op this is how you do it, is there a process of structure? Well we're in the process of doing it at the moment ourselves actually and anybody who wants to do that to give Emma or Rosa's shout and the guys at co-op UK and they can guide you through it I mean it's a really interesting process I love the fact that you can make it bespoke to what you want to do and your business it's just interesting explaining it to major record labels and trade bodies who you have a great conversation with then all of a sudden you know their lawyers on and say we need to read through this how does this work so you know I'm trying to make people understand what's going to happen here in Manchester in October is an experiment they've got to come down and they can control it and make it what they want it to be maybe it's going to take us doing one to show people and maybe year two it's everyone's going to jump on not to say we don't have you know quite a good amount of co-op and we've got some members on board already so we've got some great partners on board I like the idea of it being an experiment because you don't know and you'll find stuff out as you're doing it you know we've found the pros and the cons there are better don't work as well aren't there or better hard to get around to make to work as I'm sure we'll find so yeah I don't know just looking forward to October and if we want to give people in the music business this platform and whether they use it or not it's up to them if the major labels fail to use it then I know loads of independent labels and up and coming artists that will and perhaps that's the way that things are going to go I think in a sense they already are there's already a breakdown in the business into different models all the time isn't there just which one gets the upper hand isn't it it is and I've got to be slightly diplomatic because we're hoping that all the major labels are going to come to our conference in October but totally I think it's but I think it's just really it's just really empowering isn't it and the further the cooperative model comes along the more and more it's going to be adapted in music I know the co-op is powerful across the board but I do think that in music we're one of the industries where we're super close to our product because it comes from the end of our fingers or our vocal cords so I actually think that the music industry could be a really good place to develop the cooperative model and any other kind of revolutionary ideas that are coming out in the world at the moment so Jay is Jay Tane here Jay is a roving mic around because Jay you've been involved in the campaign by the music venue trust to buy back the venues from private landlords and now the mic is on its way and adopting some of these ideas that we talk about up here in a grassroots level isn't it you know basically in the venues in all the small towns or whatever all the small towns up down the country apply these ideas in a practical sense for those who don't know the music venue trust charity formed in 2014 to protect support and improve the UK's grassroots music sector which those grassroots venues is about 950 dancing around a thousand across the nations so my main role is I'm in MVT's emergency service so when venues are faced with challenges they tend to come to me and my colleague Sophie or one of our other national colleagues and we try and kind of stop them from closing or kind of fix the problem they've got one of those big problems is 90% of the sector has got a private landlord and they're generally 18 months away from a rent review and that thing's only going in one direction so understanding that but also understanding that when these venues were largely pieces of community work anyway that they often didn't realise it the campaign was to put a community share offer together to buy back some of those venues and put them into community ownership and so we've just raised two and a half million quid, nine of them we're in the process of buying nine of them now I think we'll probably have the first couple over the next few weeks warning greater Manchester the snug in Atherton plenty more in the north west and so that piece of work is going to do a series of things it's going to bring their rent down and it will be the landlords and that thing's immediately going to be more reasonable it's going to put those venues in a more sustainable position because in amongst that process they're going to stop being limited companies they're converting to CICs and the moment they become a CIC things completely changed relatively easy to do it can open up to reduce business rates in the right circumstances reduce that on ticketing certainly opens them up to more funding they it can open up to access to things like the Crown Commercial Service or their energy bills which at the moment is beyond landlords is probably the second thing that's going to bring these people down to reduce energy bills through mass procurement through the CCS but also I think there was an educational piece of this work because a lot of them were those businesses anyway but running as a limited company the sector's got a 0.2% profit margin and any money they did have they reinvested they weren't joining only on a yacht they were improving access they were improving their production they were putting it into programming and so I think there was an educational twist where we were starting to say this is kind of what you are already you are pieces of community work so Ollie do you want to pick up on that those ideas I mean obviously you know Jay you work with Jay on these ideas already of owning the venues I think it's a great idea it's kind of to me it's like halfway between the two isn't it I think it's great I mean it's just a great example of direct action at the moment and making a change however it needs to happen and it does need to happen because if they don't own the venues the venues are going to disappear bottom line so I love what music venue just does I love Jay and I love Mark as well they're fantastic and yeah without them these venues would probably be getting knocked down so yes it works in a couple of different ways here not only is it the fairest way to propagate the culture and the music to own it yourselves also it's practical isn't it it's actually a better way of running a business yeah it is totally and I think also I think there's obviously loads of benefits to the cooperative model isn't it but at least you're not in it alone and I think a lot of people who get into music can do it almost quite casually and end up doing stuff on their own or doing stuff unconstituted and I think a co-op is just an absolutely amazing amazing model because you're bringing all of your community on board and to be a part of it I mean Sarah so the music world's one thing isn't it but it's just actually relates to the world that you're involved in as well so at least some of these ideas where they work or you're working in with that work towards music as well I mean I don't see why not I mean I think there's something that you said there already about that we're not being alone and I think a lot of the time we do a lot of work with local councils and getting them to think about the idea that they are not alone either that they are, they've got other partners at the local level that they can and should be working with to try and make things better for people so that could be about using the land and assets that they have to to really make sure that the benefits of that land and properties actually go back into communities rather than just being sort of siphoned off or perhaps making those land and assets available to organisations that want to set up co-operatives and one of the ways in which we're hoping to kind of develop some of those ideas further is a new project that we've just launched actually where Claes is going to be working with co-ops UK with the new economics foundation and with the center for thriving places in three areas across the UK the north east south Yorkshire and the west midlands actually as well and in that project all of our individual organisations are trying to make a difference on these issues and trying to support the social economy but together we I think we feel we can make a much bigger impact to tsunami if you like in terms of tidal wave of change in places by kind of co-operating together and helping to really get the investment get the support and get the buy in and I suppose grow the model at scale if you like and that's a brand new project which we're kicking off just in the last few months I like what you said there I think it's a bottom line here it's not about siphoning it's actually putting the profits off it's actually putting it back into the community if you think of the organisations in the places where we all live there's council spending money hospital spending money colleges even people like the environment agency are spending money but how can you use that money to support cooperative development to support decent jobs for people to raise the standard of what people can expect in their place rather than just thinking about the end product and you'll get kind of the lowest price if you like what can you really buy for that investment that's already going into a place and kind of really make them at work to support the kind of social economy OK so I'd like to throw this out to the floor a bit I mean the ideas of co-ops and communities really important but what's it like practically doing setting up a co-op is it easy is it hard and how much does it interact with the community anyway are these just fancy words or is it actually part and parcel of a community does it empower a community does it inspire a community or is it sometimes feel like a completely separate thing is there anybody want to interact Hi I'm with Lee Spinner's Mill CBS Lee Spinner's Mill is a grade 2 specialist in building over in Lee for those of you that know Lee it's next door to, oh yeah, Wiggum and he's started redeveloping the mill kind of just not really knowing what to do we've now got 64 tenants in there and one of the things we've recognised is that we need a better model we've already got co-operation happening within the mill the tenants are working with each other the learning from each other, the developing but we've got another mill to develop and we want to do that much more with the community focus so hence establishing a CBS that's the fundraise from the community as well one of the difficulties we've had is chasing funding and that means we've got to fit with what the funders want not necessarily what we need or what our community needs so hopefully the CBS model will work in that way it is about that democracy, it's about providing what people in Lee need not what external people think we need so that hopefully will what we end up with it's a problem finding the parts of funding or understanding the language of the funding both I mean for example we can get big money from Heritage Lottery but Heritage Lottery are obsessed with the outside skin of the building we don't care you go and ask the people in Lee what they need and it isn't a nice shiny building what they need is work, training, employment so you end up jumping through hoops to try and get that funding because it means we can use some of that funding to help with the structure of the building which means we can then operate inside it but it is often the funders don't get what we're after the funders kind of have their own objectives and it ain't necessarily fitting with what we want so we need to get that to mystified and we need to get them speaking the language of the people don't we they've got to start listening to us with all due respect we're the experts we're living it day to day we don't need the experts coming in telling us also technically the funding is ours not theirs good point I mean Emma is that something the co-op could get involved in I mean obviously you are involved in it but is this something that you can get involved in further to get those people to actually listen to people on the ground to actually do positive schemes yeah and I think in terms of the ownership hub I think that's something that can actually enable that because we are working with organisations already in those areas including the combined authority there's no reason why that shouldn't involve funders as well and I think on a local level it's about making sure that funders understand actually the impacts that they're going to have in the community rather than ticking those boxes and we've had this for a lot of years and the co-ops wouldn't be eligible for certain parts of funding and that's some work that Co-op TK has done over the years to make sure that funders do recognise co-ops and that CBS is being eligible and the impacts that they can have but yeah I think it's definitely something that we could do more of and working as well through the RAP programme as well I think but yeah I think it's about funders recognising what the impacts are going to be in those local areas maybe less so about whether it takes some boxes on a form so better communication and people listening yeah better communication and understanding in those areas where the applications are coming from what is needed locally in those areas because I think generally if it's a national fund then it's a national application process in a way and so then you're not able to to put some of those nuances that you have in your local areas and what that area really needs and who's involved which can then mean that you're making an application to get the money rather than making an application to get money that's actually going to have an impact in your area very good point said and I think with the co-op it sort of plays into that as well because co-op is about local areas it's about it's not about central funding it's about the understanding of local needs and local solutions yeah absolutely and people trying to do things for themselves and it makes it very difficult to do something for yourself or as a group of people if you've got external forces that are putting unnecessary barriers in the way that actually stops you then from doing what your local community needs and it's the local communities that know what it is that they need as you say you don't need other people coming in and telling you what to do and how to do it it's about people coming in and listening and again with the ownership hub it's not about coming in and taking over an area it's about coming in and listening to what the needs are there and then being able to provide the support the funding and the guidance that you need to enable that to happen is that something that's bold as well is there a sense that people don't understand the make up of the town biggest town in Britain and what it needs and it's own sort of specific needs do you mean people as in citizens the people there don't seem to understand what they can get and the people who can give it to them don't seem to understand what they need to give to them ultimately it's about power isn't it there's a sort of power imbalance there example there from Lee you're having to kind of go with a begging ball all the time to get money from external organisations who aren't based in your area and perhaps need lots and lots of information to be able to understand and then to make a decision on whether to give you the money or not so I think that feels like a sort of heavily centralized system which costs you a huge amount of money in terms of the process and everything else and there has to be a much more efficient effective system of getting financed organisations who are trying to do this work on the ground of sheer determination to make things better for each other it's not like you're making loads of money so there's something about recognizing that and maybe there's something that organisations like ours and co-ops you can do to try and get some of those points through to people like the lottery fund to try and make the case for decentralizing this money and getting out much faster decentralizing the money that's a good term well thanks to that for the question from Lee near Wigan arch rivals he had to mention that is there another point or a question from the floor over here a few years ago we got a pretty good working group together of the neutral and cooperative trade associations to work with the treasury on a number of things one of which was to try and simplify incorporation of cooperatives and to make funding more straight forward so I'm just wondering with an election coming up whatever the outcome is going to be within the next couple of years what should we be asking for now in terms of and demanding in terms of making it easier especially to form and grow cooperatives and secondly to find that to designate that funding and make fundraising easier Emma well I was just hoping that James right our policy officer was going to be in the room and he is not but I think you know there's a wide breadth of things that we could be asking for in terms of policy asks but I think it's something around parity a lot of the time in terms of do you get forgotten and left behind so it's not even about it's parity and better things you know employee ownership employee owned organisations for example they have particular tax breaks I think in terms of wider worker owned organisations we could also be looking at whether or not there's any financial benefits and opportunities so I'm actually bringing workers together to own their own capital that actually has on the economy is massive but there aren't really those financial incentives to do it so you know Robin's going to have the whole list I think in terms of what we want to be asking in terms of a general election I think my point would be it's about parity understanding and education around co-ops as well in terms of the impacts and differences that they can make and I think what we were talking earlier about devolving some of that power down to local areas so that they can take control over what they need rather than that kind of centralized power I mean what you were doing before do you think it's changed the situation do you think the model you were trying to present do you think it needs updating or is it the same problems as when you were doing the report last time it's very long journeys but it is still a lot more difficult to get a co-operative incorporated is to get a company incorporated for example like you can do a company in 24 hours and we do not have yet those sorts of government sponsored pools of co-operative and mutual capital that you get for you know for lots of other schemes so British business bank for example does not have a mandate to support co-operatives and mutuals whereas it does other businesses so yeah we see great opportunities the question is trying to get it over the line are you optimistic yeah of course there was a question over here I think yeah this table here hi I'm Lenny I'm from system at night we're a music venue or trying to be a music venue in south east London I'm structured as a CBS and I guess it's kind of following on from your point about funding is needed like all kinds of funding but I feel like specifically like big capital funds that are willing to take risks on co-operative projects especially like new projects but also like there's just not enough funding for like early stage projects to pay the people with the ideas to actually do them like we got as much support as I imagine anyone could get but of all the different funds that we've been offered there's lots that are able to pay for consultants time or for like specific bits of work but there's not really any money to pay us and it's been a full-time job for two years and we're still not trading we still don't have our staff on salaries it's just like taking bits of money where we can get it from different fund raises and stuff I feel like that just creates such a barrier to new co-ops existing because the only people who can start them at the moment seem to be people who've got the privilege of free time to put towards that so I feel like that's a really big missing piece of the funding landscape is just being able to pay people with ideas to take the time to develop it Is it a model that you know the venue itself is it something that would eventually make money if it got into a position where it could make money or is it just something that's very difficult to make money out of I mean as we heard from Jay like running music venues in general is tough but like our financial model demonstrates that yeah we can be financially sustainable and the long run once we're up and running but it's just such a high barrier to get there especially in a city like London where property costs so much I mean we've been incredibly fortunate that our local council in Llesham have given us a building rent free for ten years which is like amazing that never happens but it's a derelict building it's going to cost us half a million to bring it back into use so we're instantly having to spend that huge amount of money up front like where's that going to come from we've been fundraising for two years and we've got just over 300k of that money now but the longer it takes the more we're depleting our funds so we're just constantly chasing our tail trying to get money in to do it I mean Ollie what do you think I mean I would say you have to call the solution off the back of your hand but music venue this sounds like it's difficult, it's hard work but it's amazing what the council has done there it is it just took my breath away and that turns into sounds like oh my god Lucian council did what that's absolutely amazing for me that's what community wealth is about council saying we've got this venue why don't you use it because we're not using it getting the wealth out into the community but I agree it's very very difficult to start off any business let alone a venue in London good luck I'll see you there as well next time I'm down what kind of things would someone have to do to make it work are you open now no I think raising 300 grand is pretty impressive actually that's really good but you probably need to raise even more to open a club you need your community don't you and that's where co-op comes into it if you take subscriptions or have memberships lots of people interacting with what you're doing it sounds like you do have you got a co-op model you're running as a co-op yeah if it's society and we've got just over 900 members but the problem is it's really hard to engage with members because doing so uses up a lot of our resources and when you don't have a physical space it's a lot of extra work just to be engaging with your community so we're in this weird space we've got all these people and all this money and we're trying to get it going but it just feels like we're in limbo for the time being what's the actual hold-up for it to start is the building not finished yet or? we haven't even started works on the building because we need to get all the money together do you need the money to make the building so legally usable is that what the hold-up is? at the moment it's totally derelict so it's going to need 350k worth of renovation but also we can't pay ourselves enough to work as much on the project because we need to so it's like our time is diverted you've got 900 members some of those can help you just get the thing off the ground I don't see all the squats and things no, and they do the community have been amazing we've had support from all different kinds of people with different skills and experiences but it does just take a few people driving it full time and we're trying to do that but we can only do it for so long and we can't pay it properly I think you should definitely persevere we're not going to start we've been out for two years I might be able to hook you up with some people that would be great I'm just saying as well Lewisham Council has given you a derelict building so I will be going back to Lewisham and saying to them look, thanks for this, this is brilliant but it's not just about giving us offloading a derelict building to us we need a building that we can actually use we want to tell good news that you've given us that building but we need quite a lot of money to make this usable so thank you but where's the rest of it Believe me that conversation has been happening for a while but the will is really there from them to help in every way that they can but they just haven't got the money there's just no pots of funding available to them but if you've got any advice on keen for that conversation going I'd love to take you off on it That's a really great example of the practicalities of trying to do this talking little slogans and ideas but actually doing it hands-on is a completely different thing I've only got about two minutes left but do you want to make a quick point? Thank you, really interesting a great discussion I think the discussion today so far has been around communities of geography a bit like the venue we just talked about interested in any views on communities that have no geography possibly virtual communities and whether there's a role for democratising that as well That's an interesting idea I guess it goes back to you Yeah and I think there are examples internationally of organisations that have done that where they come together online if they're freelancers or if their members are all around the country around the world I guess and I think as well cooperatives they play to that because it's not necessarily all meeting in the same room it's people coming together who have the shared values and are coming together collectively to meet a common aim and so yeah it definitely doesn't have to be a physical building or an asset it can absolutely be those kind of online communities as well I can't think of any examples I don't know whether Glen or Hannah can do that who work on the ground with co-ops but you know Bicycle delivery co-op There you go Absolutely Taxes Well thanks everybody I think the clock's been us so thanks to the panel Rose Thanks so much we've got that legislation review Robin's touched on it, we're gathering right now the cooperative and mutual manifesto our prospectus that we're going to put in front of all the prospective governments there is a session at 1.30 tomorrow about that if you can feed into it but if not Robin can talk to you all day long about this and would love to hear what you think needs to happen because Lenny's just explained it really well and Ollie's touched on it the wills there but it's not easy for lots of reasons so thank you to our brilliant panelist Sarah Longlands, Ollie Wilson Emily Cock and John Robb for the discussion