 this episode 78. Today we're going to talk about anxiety and depression. This is a really popular topic in our community. I shouldn't say popular topic. That's probably the wrong way to describe it, but it's a topic that is near and dear to many people in our community. We're going to talk about some of the facts surrounding anxiety and depression and how they relate. We're going to talk about some of the myths. We're going to talk about some of the urban legends. We're talking about that super common fear of becoming depressed. So yeah, we'll have a lot to cover today for sure. I even have notes for you today, which is a little bit different than I usually have on Recovery Monday. Let's put the chat overlay up. Let's see who is in the room. We have 12 people. Hopefully everything is working. I assume just somebody give me a wave or whatever. Let me know that you can hear me. You guys can chat with each other here on the side of the screen. You will be able to see your chat comments in real time, which is always great. Hello, how are you? First comment comes in from Twitch. Welcome, Twitch. What a big deal. Hello, Germany. How are you doing? Caitlin is here. Kathleen is here. Hey, Charlie, what's happening? Bethany is here. Good to see everybody today. I'm guessing a lot of the depressing comes to the thought of anxiety staying around forever. Yeah, we're going to talk about all of those things for sure. So there's a whole lot. Enberg, how are you doing? What's happening? So yeah, we'll wait for some folks to show up. And we'll get into the topic for sure. Just a quick reminder that if you're coming from my Facebook group, Restream doesn't show me your name. It'll just say Facebook user. So just, if you want to say your name, if you comment, that's totally fine. That's just a technical thing. Nothing we can do about it. Hello, Carol. How's it going? Reese, what's up? Cool. Everybody's filing in here. I suspect we might be heavily attended today because there's no holidays or anything like that going on. And it's a pretty, like I said, a pretty big topic. So Amy says, guess who didn't feel dizzy at work today and had a really good day? You're very welcome. Thanks for your advice Friday on the Zoom. You're very welcome. I told the anxiety to do it's worth. Worse, I know that's a thing for you. So good job practicing that. Hello from the Facebook group. Again, can't see Bonjour from Wales. Hello, Wales. Can't see your name because of Restream, but hello, welcome. Congrats on the Vogue shout out. Vogue, correct? Vogueing. How weird is that? Like I am the last guy in the world that should ever be in Vogue Magazine. I'm not in Vogue Magazine, but my podcast, The Anxious Truth is in Vogue Magazine. And I just am getting such a kick out of it because seriously, like I'm the last person in the world that Vogue Magazine should ever have any contact with. But anyway, it's pretty cool. And thank you so much. A lot of people are reaching out and I don't know, it's fun. Anyway, so, hey, Sammy, what's happening? And so let's get into this. Let's talk about anxiety and depression. There's 40 people here. I'm sure more are going to show up. That's pretty normal for us. Let's talk. I actually have some notes because I want to go over them with you guys. So you're going to see me read the screen a little bit. I'm trying not to be rude. I'm sorry about that. But let's talk about this. Before we get into it, I just want to say one thing about depression. So depression, in a way, it's a state of feeling, right? It has a lot to do with how you feel. So it's really highly subjective. Like, don't let anybody tell you, you know, that you don't feel the way you feel. We should never invalidate anything that anybody is feeling. So you might be feeling low, you might be feeling down. You might actually be depressed. That's possible. But just remember, it's really subjective. And I'm not here to try to convince you that you're not depressed. Maybe you are. Don't know that. And we don't want to invalidate anybody's feelings or anybody's emotional state. But we do want to sort of be accurate in the way we describe the idea of depression. Now, you might hear terms like clinical depression or major depression or major depressive disorder. I think that's what most people are worried that they are going to develop, like I'm going to develop that kind of depression. And I'll try and keep an eye on the comments, by the way, if you guys want to like, you know, yeah, me, that's me. How many folks in the room are worried or preoccupied or afraid? Not that you are thinking that you are depressed or have developed clinical or major depression, but you worry that you will develop it. Incredibly common. If that's you, you don't have to say it if you don't want it. You can be private. It's okay. Just know that I, that's one of the things I was amazed to learn that so many people in this community harbor that fear. I am always scanning. I'm always worried that I am going to develop depression. Even though I'm not depressed now, I might not even feel sad right now, but I am fixated all the time on my mood to see if it indicates that I might be becoming depressed because I'm terrified to be depressed. Now, if you have lived through major depressive episodes before, I get that nobody wants to go back there, right? Like I've been there. I don't want to go back there for sure. And if you have lived through it before, it's perfectly understandable that you might be a bit hyper vigilant and, you know, you don't want to go back there. So I get that. That's totally understandable. That's not wrong. So let's talk about it a little bit. The fear of depression is sort of a, it's a, it's a fear that an anxious mind is going to latch on to, right? So if you fear depression, you will tend to be involved in analyzing your mood all the time. If you're in an up mood, which can even be an anxious mood, because that's sort of up in this strange world of an anxious mind, not so bad. You're not worried about depression. But if you feel neutral, right? Which sometimes people will describe as empty. I don't feel anxious. I'm neutral. I'm flat. And therefore I'm, I'm worried what that means. Or if you have a day where you're feeling sad or a couple of days where your mood is low, you're feeling unmotivated. You're feeling lazy. You can't seem to get involved in anything. You're just having the blouse that comes, also would become interpreted as, uh-oh, I'm developing depression. An anxious mind will say, see, see, that's depression. That's depression. And you better do something about it right now. But that isn't really true, right? That isn't true. Could it mean that depression is, is maybe something that's developing? Sure. It could mean that. I'm not here to try to convince you that you will never become depressed or that you don't have depression or never did at all. But note that an anxious mind that's afraid of this will automatically declare it's coming back. This is a sign. Everything is a sign. Any negative affect, any negative mood, anything that's not happy or elevated must mean depression, and it's going to freak me out. So, um, that's actually really super common, right? In the end. So don't feel bad if you're labor under that because you're definitely not alone. So many people in this, so many people in this will say that they fear being depressed. So let's talk about, let's give you some sort of facts here. Uh, facts that you can go on. I do not mean to say that only a diagnostic manual or only official diagnosis can validate your depression. That's not true at all. But this is one of the cases where diagnostic techniques and diagnostic manuals and statistical manuals, diagnostic and statistical manual is that's why they call it the DSM is helpful because it lets us gather data and we could start to see trends over time. So to be depressed with what people would call clinical depression or major depressive disorder, there are quite a few criteria that have to be met. And again, I only say this so that you can maybe get a little bit more objective view of what we would mean when we say you have depression, right? You have depression that feared state. Oh no, I have clinical depression and I think I might never get out of it. There are quite a few criteria that have to be met. It's not just I'm sad. It's not just I'm in a low mood. It's not just I'm not motivated. It has to be persistent, right? So usually we're talking about multiple weeks where there's things are present more often than not. It has to be sort of a shift, a major shift from how you were feeling before this started. It has to come with a bunch of symptoms and it kind of has to cause a significant amount of impairment or distress in your life. So it's not don't confuse I'm kind of sad or I'm feeling discouraged because I've been stuck in my anxiety or I'm having a low mood for the last couple of days. It's been a bad weekend. Don't confuse that with this means I'm depressed. Again, it might I have to be realistic. I can't say, oh, just shake it off. But don't automatically say this means depression. Okay. So keep that in mind to actually be clinically diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. There has to be a lot, right? It has to be a lot going on there. It's not just I'm sad or I'm low. So if you are in the habit of the minute you experience a low mood that lasts one afternoon, you start to go into depression, depression, depression, know that that's not really it, right? So you have to be careful about that. And then the other thing here's where the twist comes in, right? So many of the symptoms that would come along with like diagnosable depression are going to look a lot like symptoms that you are already experiencing as part of your anxiety problem. So if you're Googling like crazy to try to see if I'm depressed, if I'm am I getting depressed, does this mean otherwise, you're going to freak out even more because some of those diagnostic criteria that would say yes, you're depressed is going to sound a lot like what you're already experiencing because of your anxiety, the agitation, the sleep problems, you know, all of those things, the disruption in your clinically significant disruption of functioning, your anxiety may already be doing that for you. So you have to be really careful because your anxious mind is going to look at that and say, look, here's evidence that I am in fact depressed when that might not be true. So it's kind of a cruel twist in a way. And also, it's important to understand that, hey, Leila, good to see you. So it's important to understand also that feeling down because you are dealing with anxiety may lead you down that road. That's true, but that by itself wouldn't necessarily be say, well, that person's depressed. Well, you're discouraged, you're sad, you're disheartened, you're feeling a little bit frustrated or whatever it happens to be, because while I've been struggling with anxiety for so long. Yeah, that's true. But we also don't want to pathologize a normal human response. Like if you are having a hard time with anxiety right now, if you're struggling with that, you will likely have some low mood because of that, right? That's allowed. It's allowed. So what I would urge everybody to do today is figure out, kind of figure out that whole, or at least put your brain around the idea that like I'm going to experience varied emotional states. I'm not just an anxious person, I'm a person. And my struggle with anxiety may trigger low moods, it may trigger sadness, it may trigger regret, it may trigger grief, it may trigger feelings of loss, it may trigger anger, it may trigger a bunch of different things. First order of business is to accept that I'm allowed to feel all these things, and to not hit the panic button, because I have certain negative emotions right now. What can I do to allow them to feel what I have to feel, to express them in a healthy way, right? And then let me see what I can do to try to move through those. When you discover that you can't do that, or it's persistent, or it just doesn't go away, or those negative thought patterns get louder and louder and they kind of get you in a rut, depression is often driven by those absolute horrible negative statements like, I'm never going to get better, I can't, I'm worthless, I'm broken, no one loves me, I'm unlovable. These are common cognitive patterns that repeat again and again and again that will fuel that depression. But first and foremost, recognize I'm allowed to feel all emotions, like humans are allowed to feel all emotions, they don't automatically mean depression as we fear it. And sometimes I just have to know that I'm allowed to be sad for a few days, because I'm just sad. You're allowed to be sad, believe it or not. So that's kind of a thing. So one of the things that we hear, I talked about, we wanted to address some of the common, like preconceptions about anxiety and depression or myths, if you will, or some of the stuff you just see passed around on social media. How about this one? Are anxiety and depression two sides of the same coin? How many people have heard like, oh, it's just two sides of the same coin? Well, sometimes, like I had a doctor who said that to me back in the early days of my experience, two sides of the same coin. And I don't even know what that means. My only interpretation of that would be, well, they're extreme states, right? So anxiety is sort of an extreme state. I'm guessing at an interpretation here. Oh, I've got to turn up my screen blanking software. Hang on. Let me do that. Yeah, don't blank until tomorrow. So some people might say, well, whereas anxiety is an extreme presentation sort of in a higher energy state, well, then depression is an extreme presentation in a very low energy state. So they're the same. They're just two sides of the same coin. I don't know about that. You hear it all the time. I think it just becomes sort of an automatic kind of catchphrase that people use. And I don't know where it comes from. And I don't even know if it's necessarily valid. We really have to look into that. But the biggest problem that I have with the phrase, they're two sides of the same coin is that it will lead anxious people into thinking that depression and anxiety automatically always come together. So let's stop for a second and ask a couple of questions. Like how many people in the room have heard the whole like, you know, oh, it's two sides of the same coin. How many people have heard that statement or been told that or how many people have been led to believe like you, anxiety and depression always come together. If you have anxiety, you have depression. If you have depression, you have anxiety. And the other one that I'll throw out there is how many people have been told you cannot be depressed and anxious at the same time. So feel free to chime in if you want, because that's another one that I hear that is just like, who came up with that? It's impossible. I've heard, I've heard people say it's impossible to be anxious and depressed at the same time. Don't know about that. Because to be completely honest with you, some of the diagnostic criteria that would lead you to be diagnosed with, you know, with major depressive disorder certainly looks like an anxious presentation. So I don't know about that. You can't be, I've heard, hear about this one. I have heard, if you are agitated, I might have this backwards, this blew me away because evidently this was a trained clinician, that's all I'm going to say, who told this to a patient. And that was if you are anxious, if you are agitated in the morning, then you have anxiety. But if it's at night, it means you have depression. Can you even, like, can you even believe that a person was told that by an actual working clinician who stood by that? Like, no, no, no, anxiety only happens in the morning and depression only happens at night. Like, I can't even believe that that was a thing that was told to somebody, but it was. I mean, I don't think that that person was making it up. So I think it's important to, you know, sort of recognize these things. I've heard, so I'm looking at the comments, two sides of the same coin, definitely heard this. I've been told that I completely disagree. How about anxious depression? Like, yeah, anxious depression is kind of a thing. You can be diagnosed with depressive presentation, like anxiety, general anxiety sort of can come times with depressive symptoms. So can major depressive disorder can come with like an anxious presentation. So that whole, like, you can't be one, you can't be anxious and present. I don't know about that. So there's a lot of stuff that swirls around that sometimes I think, again, not because we can talk an anxious mind out of its fear when we'll get to that. But it's important to also work from reality. I think sometimes in this topic, because depression and anxiety are such common experiences that so many people will run up against in their life at some point, I think everybody kind of feels like they can be an expert on this. I'm not trying to invalidate anybody, but and then things just sort of get passed around on social media. And then if they get set enough, they're sort of true. But just because they're set enough doesn't necessarily mean they're true. So sometimes we have to take what we're reading with a grain of salt, about especially if you are terrified about depression and you're constantly searching to see like, am I depressed? Do I have depression? Do anxiety and depression always come together? You're going to hear a lot of that stuff. So does depression automatically appear with anxiety? So if you have an anxiety disorder, are you doomed to automatically become depressed? The answer is no, absolutely not. You are not automatically doomed to become depressed. They do not automatically come together. Will you be more vulnerable to that? Yes, you are. Because when somebody with say major depressive disorder, if they are officially diagnosed with that, there's a lot of co-occurring disorders or we call them co-morbidities, panic disorder, OCD, eating disorders, substance abuse issues, GAD, borderline personality disorder, like depression often does come along with other mental health issues as to anxiety disorders. But that's not news. And just because there's an increased risk for a depressive state, if you are dealing with anxiety disorder, doesn't mean it's automatic. It does not mean that at all. Doesn't mean that it's automatic. I can't say that enough. But a lot of times you'll hear that, like I heard that they always come together. They come together. Well, they can appear together. There's an increased risk of them coming together. But it doesn't mean that it's automatic. Again, remember that anxiety is going to impact your life. It's going to impact your mood. It's going to impact your behavior. It's going to impact everything. So sometimes you might be up here. Sometimes you might be neutral. Sometimes you might be down here in terms of your mood and your affect. That's going to happen. That doesn't automatically mean like, well, you're becoming depressed. As always, if at all possible, you consult with your in-person help for this, like a guy in a podcast on a YouTube channel cannot diagnose you with depression. Of course not. That can't possibly happen. I can give you this information. But of course, always consult with your in-person help on this. But just be careful about making those leaps into like, well, it automatically comes together. This is interesting, because there's some interesting things that come up when you sort of look at this stuff. In the case of major depressive disorder, it is more likely for women to have co-occurring anxiety disorders. It is more likely for men to have substance abuse disorders. So it all happens. But when you really get down into the numbers, it's like, well, okay, I see what's going on here. In the end, there's a lot of, this sort of speaks to like the therapy speak trend and like, well, we see little snippets of data here and there. Then we drag them into Instagram and turn it into Insta Therapy and Therapy Speak. And we over-generalize, we misapply these sort of things. Just be careful about that, because you could be fueling fear that doesn't need to be fueled. Here's another interesting statistic that will look at another little bit of fact that I can give you that might help you, because again, it doesn't wipe out your fear and it doesn't wipe out your worry and it doesn't fix your depression if you are depressed. But 12 month prevalence in the US for major depressive disorder, about 7%. That means about 7% of people, adolescents and adults in the US in a 12 month period will possibly develop, might be at a point where they can be diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And that's a lot of people, but it's still only 7%. So keep that in mind. Again, a lot of times an anxious mind will just assume I'm doomed now and my odds of depression are 100%. It's not true even if you have an anxiety disorder. It's definitely not true for the general population. Again, some of the most common mental health issues in the universe, anxiety and depression, but it doesn't mean that it's automatic. I can't say that enough. So let's see what the comments are and then I want to get down into sort of dealing with depression, because a lot of people ask questions about, well, you know, is depression, do you float and accept and all that stuff. So I want to talk about that, but let's see. I get it on and off through my life. Okay, so a lot of people do. And you know what? Once this is true that once you have had one say major depressive episode, your risk of having another one is higher. That's true. Again, I'm going to give you good information. I'm not going to lie to you, but I'm going to give you information to walk, to work with you. So that is true. But again, it doesn't mean it's automatic. My doctor told me it goes hand in hand and anxiety. Again, that's an over. My doctor said the same thing. My doctor gave me the two sides of the coin argument. Is it not true? It's not a lie. It's not an outright lie or fabrication. It's just a gross oversimplification and maybe an exaggeration. And honestly, if you're dealing with an anxious person, I think you have to be really careful with the way you describe these things. Telling an anxious person that depression and anxiety come hand in hand. It's not entirely incorrect, but it's not a very sensitive, contextually sensitive way to deliver that data. So important. I'm pretty much recovered from panic disorder, but I'm scared I'll get depression again this winter. Some people are more susceptible. That's true. So Kathleen's talking about depression over the winter. Some people are more susceptible. We've heard of seasonal effective disorder, that sort of thing, where your mood gets lower in the winter months, when there's less sun and the days are shorter, it's colder. Is there an increased vulnerability to that? For some people, there might be. It's true. But I'm worried that I'm, we're going to talk about that in a second. What do I do if I'm worried about getting depression? We'll talk about that in a second. I have depression that has come from anxiety, 100%. It rolled into depression after six months of having anxiety. Well, sometimes it's the, I am now, my anxiety has me pinned down, right? This is really common. My anxiety has me pinned down. I feel like I can't do anything. My life is really small. My life is really tiny. And now I start to believe that narrative, that I'm incapable, that I am never going to get better, that I'm weak or I'm broken. What's the point? Nothing works. Like nothing works. It's a big one. So sometimes that will lead to that whole, like my anxiety caused my depression. Again, does it make you more vulnerable to developing diagnosable depression? Yeah, it does. There's no doubt about that. Again, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to give you accurate information here. But often you can sort of pinpoint it down to that. So in most common interpretations of anxiety, it's your anxiety, I'm sorry, I have depression. Your anxiety, your depression is driven by repetitive and recurring and persistent negative thought patterns that aren't necessarily accurate, right? That I see the comments like desperately trying to get me to confirm that it comes back or not, or it's genetic, like, it's okay, relax, we're going to get to that stuff. So that thing is like, well, if depression is fueled by those negative thought patterns that become persistent, but are also somewhat, we would say irrational, not to invalidate them, but they're distorted, like you understand cognitive distortions, they're magnified, they're black and white, they're all or none, they're mind reading, and they're often involved with the senses of I'm worthless, I'm never going to get better, I'm weak, I can't handle this, I'm broken, nothing works for me like I was saying, those become, start to become ingrained and you begin to believe them and act in accordance with them, which would kind of confirm that my anxiety caused my depression. So I think it's not as simple for people in our situation to just say anxiety causes depression, anxiety and being pinned under it and sort of staying pinned under it is a little bit, so you're already more vulnerable to develop that, but if you stay pinned under it for a long period of time, you're probably even a little bit more vulnerable for sure, because it's that sort of stuff is going to pop up and then that can become habitual, again, habitual patterns that start to fuel that depressive state. So you have to be careful about that. It's hard, you don't want to be in a position where you say, well, I have an anxiety problem, I'm powerless over the anxiety because everything I do to try to stop it, manage it, keep it from happening, doesn't work, which often doesn't work, then I start to feel hopeless and weak and powerless, and then that leads into those those cognitive states that fuel that depressive state. So you are not powerless over it. And again, this is purely, purely anecdotal here, I'm not, this is not anything I've studied, I have no data for this, I can only tell you in a very large population of people that the people who are most vulnerable in our community to I've developed depression are the people who tend to struggle the most with moving forward in recovery. And sometimes it's just because they're pointed at the wrong target, like I'm trying to do all these things so that I don't ever panic so that I'm not anxious, that's not accusatory, it's just this seems to be a pattern. And what that tells you is you are not 100% powerless in this situation, you have to be really careful, right? You have to be really careful about declaring that this is all entirely beyond your control and you're powerless against it and it will victimize you forever. That's a tough place to put yourself in, right? So let me keep going here, I see a lot of people are, let me look at more comments for I keep going here. Mine was recovered then depression was recovered, yeah, it comes back for unknown reasons, that can happen, right? So, like I said, people who have history depression are more likely to develop it again on a recurring basis. Sometimes we just can't pinpoint what it is, like I'm not anxious anymore, but I still have recurring bouts of depression, that can happen, that's true. I depression that empty feeling I now fear coming back, but if I act, but I act now, this goes on the screen, this goes on the screen, this is awesome. Thank you, Charlie Wax, I appreciate it. This what Charlie said, I fear coming back, but now I act if I feel it coming, the little things matter, we're done, that's it, mic drop, we're out. Charlie's going to take over the rest of the video because this is gold right here and I'll explain why, I'll tell you why I say that. I'm fearful of depression, I'm pregnant, so sometimes I lack the energy to be productive, which makes me anxious, so I become productive as a real, what do you do when you're safe to behavior is something that is actually functional, but not do things for the right reason? I won't let myself rest. That's a big question. I won't let myself rest is the answer to the question. I won't let myself rest because if I rest then I don't feel productive and if I'm not productive then I'll start to get into a low mood, which then means that I might be depressed, so I have to keep moving, so how many people feel that? I have to keep moving so that I don't become depressed. That's actually some faulty thinking too, because if I stop it means I'll feel my low mood or I'll feel some mood or I might feel emotions and that might indicate depression. That's tough, so you have to practice not being productive. If you're driving yourself into the ground with fatigue because you're not going to, because I can't rest, because if I don't, if I rest it means I'm lazy or not productive and then I get anxious, but it also means that it feels my depression, you have to practice taking breaks. You're allowed to rest, like you have to rest, everybody has to rest, so that's a tough one. Let's see, I love your thoughts on taking medication, but still getting the credit. Feel like I'm getting the credit and it's just a tool. Big win is I'm coming up to MedSoli. You know that I'm not really going to spend a lot of time talking about medication here. It's an option. It is an option for everybody and everybody gets to pick it. I hate, hate, hate, hate weighing in on that. I can't weigh in on medication because you're allowed to take it if you want to take it. It's a viable option for a lot of people, so I don't like to give my opinion on that because then it sounds kind of like, okay, we should probably delete that. Vicki probably shouldn't put your email in a comment here, I think, but that's all right. I think in that situation we have to be careful about if I weigh in with an opinion or say anything about medication, it often gets sort of twisted into thinking that I either endorse or condemn medication, I just don't. I just don't. It's really an individual tool, individual choice. My doctors always say I was depressed when I was anxious. Oh, Carol, that's actually really common to be completely honest with you. Sometimes they get so mixed together that they can't tell the difference. I was depressed when really I was anxious. That's actually more common than you think, so you're not alone in that. I learned that fearing anxiety was feeding it. I also learned that fearing low moods fit into this. Put Bethany up on the screen. I learned that any fixation on a feeling magnifies it for me. Remember what I said before about you have to recognize that you're in a challenging situation with anxiety and it's going to make you feel all kinds of things. That is so important and it speaks to what Bethany is saying here in the comment because the idea that if I do feel things, I'm going to interpret certain feelings as catastrophic or harbingers of doom and now I have to fix my feelings so that I can be sure that they don't turn into depression, that's a no win for you. That's going to make things a lot of times worse because then you can't fix them and then you get even more freak deaths. I know you're even more anxious about what you think are depressed feelings that you can't fix. You try even hard to fix them and it doesn't work and you got a big fire burning. So it's important to recognize I'm allowed to feel all emotions. I can't put a fence around it and say sadness is off limits because I think sadness equals anxiety, which equals depression, which it does not, doesn't. Okay, I felt depressed because I felt like I had lost so much time in life to anxiety. See, that's a pretty common thing. I'm just I feeling regrets. I'm feeling like I lost time. I'm feeling grief and loss. That's kind of common. That's going to happen to all of us. Let's see here. You did make it to a live. There are rows. Welcome. Why do we hear people say that depression is a disease or illness whereas people talk about anxiety like a disorder? Don't know. What do you think it is? Like, does it matter in the end? Is it an illness or a disease? Is depression a disease? Is anxiety a disease? What do you think it is? Like, I'm not sure that it's that important whether or not somebody else calls it a disease or not. That's just me, but you get it to interpret any way you want. I was just feeling low thinking anxiety was now my life and I was going to miss out on everything. Okay, so let's put Terry up on the screen too. These are really common things, right? I was feeling low thinking that anxiety was my life and I was going to miss out on stuff or look at what I've missed out on. So that's going to lead to some low moods too, for sure. Let's see here. Lack of motivation was my thing. Sure. The fear of depression is so real. It also feels into the fear. What if I get too anxious, I get too depressed? Let's put some on the screen. Here is the ultimate depression fear. I won't say the ultimate because I'm sure that there's one or two here that probably go neck and neck, but this comment right here is kind of the ultimate like depression fear, especially for anxious people. I will get so anxious that I lose control and then I'm so depressed that I'm despondent and that means that I might do something that I do not want to do. And yes, I'm talking about self-harm in that situation. We have to be able to say the words, right? Because even in something like this, if I try not to say the words, I'm afraid that I might hurt myself. I'm afraid that I might take my own life. Are those words triggering to you? That's common. It's very common. That doesn't work that way though. It doesn't work that way where like suddenly your anxiety overwhelms you and tips you over into some depressive state that makes you do a thing you do not want to do. That is not a thing. Even anxious people who do not suffer from depression have that fear. I used to have that fear too. That anxiety will make me do something that I absolutely do not want to do to myself, but it doesn't do that. It doesn't do that. Let's see here. This is good. I think most people with depression fear they are developing a more severe mental illness. I think this is a very good point too. And it also plays into the idea that somebody that say has like panic disorder, oh no, I was also diagnosed with GAD. Yes, and it makes you feel like now I have two diseases or disorders. Oh no, now I have depression and depression is worse than anxiety. These diagnoses are just a snapshot of what's going on in your life right now. So that's a better way to look at that. And the diagnosis can be helpful in terms of getting you help or deciding what to do with it or like recognizing patterns that you are part of in a bigger population and those patterns can help you or help your help your helpers help you. So look at it that way. The diagnosis is not a let me tell you what's wrong with you. It's more like here's a snapshot of what's happening in your life right now. And this can inform what we do to try and help you. So it's really important to not get too hung up on that stuff. I'm developing a worse mental illness. Let's see. They completely, okay, this is pretty good. Let's put it all up. They completely different both suck in their own unique way. I see no lie here. They 100% do. 100% do. I would not, I would rather be anxious than depressed. Having experienced both throughout my life, I would rather be anxious than depressed. So they do, they both have their own unique forms of suckage. There is no doubt about that. I've heard that fear and excitement are two sides of the same coin. You know what? That's probably more accurate, I think, than depression and anxiety being two sides of the same coin. I'm going to keep going here, but then I want to get down to give a fear coming back. I don't want it to come back. Let's put this up real quick. I'll try and get to the end and I'm going to talk about how we deal with depression or strategies for dealing with depression. Do you ever fear coming back? I don't want it to come back. Like I said, I'll take anxiety. I'll take panic all day long over depression. So I don't want to be depressed ever again. Do I fear it coming back in the way that I obsessively or compulsively scan my moods or my affect or I look at my emotions to see if I'm becoming depressed? No, I don't do that. But also I have enough experience with it where I know when it's sort of coming on and the comment before from Charlie, I act when I feel it coming on. That's me. So no, I don't think I fear it. I just certainly don't want it. That's for sure. Certainly don't want it. Let's see here. Let's keep going. First time live. Watch a lot of your videos and they helped. Good. I'm glad they were helping it some way. Welcome. Does anybody have feeling one day you can see out of this in the next day like it's never going to end? Yeah, that's actually really common, right? So we always say recovery is not linear. So some days it feels like you're a world beater and it's getting great and like I'm going to beat this thing. And other days it starts to feel cloudy again. You're going to feel a little depressed, a little bit down, a little bit discouraged, like all of those things that this is a normal part of the process. It would be great if we just went up, up, up, up, up, but it doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, but you're not alone in that many, many people will feel that way. Let's go. Don't some people just get it purely because of genetics, genetics. Sorry to start that out there. Is there a genetic vulnerability to all of these things, anxiety, deport, disorders, and depression? Yeah, there certainly appears to be. It's a vulnerability. They don't get it because of depression. So it's because of depression. It's really important that we be careful about how we say that. Genetic seems to mean that you are more vulnerable to developing these problems than somebody who doesn't have it in their, in their immediate family, right? But it doesn't mean that you will develop the problem. Again, there are so many factors that come into play here that will determine whether or not you ever develop any particular mental health issue, be it anxiety, depression, or any other thing. So in this situation, you have to be careful. Like, well, it's just genetic. I'm going to be depressed because of genetics. I'm more vulnerable to developing that because of genetics, but it doesn't mean that I am going to become depressed because of genetics. That helps. Not sure if it's true, but I recently read that more people are seeking help for anxiety, disorders, and depression. It's possible. It is certainly possible. The word anxiety is everywhere now, for sure. Oh, it's Super Chat. We never get Super Chats. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. I'm going to donate that. I save those like Instagram sticker money or badges and the Super Chats, those of you who do that. It's not a lot, but I'll send that money over to the Anxiety Depression Association of America. So thank you. I appreciate it. Yes, you can have a genetic disposition, but it isn't guaranteed. Thank you, Vera. I appreciate it. That is correct. All right. I think I'm getting near the bottom. So is this something I have agency and influences, or is it something that takes control of? Okay. So let's get to that. Learning relate to... This is going to be... I can't keep up with everybody. All right. So we're 35 minutes in. Let's get to the last part of this, which is people always want to know, what do you do with depression? How do I deal with depression? Okay. People often want to know if the same rules apply, like the clear, weak stuff, the floating, the accepting, the willful tolerance, the surrender, the acceptance, all that stuff. Is depression the same? Well, to a certain extent, there's an acceptance-based, I think, component to it, because it's like, well, it's here. I don't want it to be here, but it's here. So I'm not going to try to pretend it's not. I'm not going to try to magically fix it or cure it. I'm not going to try to do something special that manipulates my brain or my diet or something to try and fix my depression. There is a certain level of acceptance there. I'm experiencing a thing here that sometimes human experience. But depression, from my point of view, now, this is echoed by a lot of clinicians. Not everybody does it the same way, but depression is also one of the most successfully treated mental health conditions we have. And treating it with a combination of cognitive behavioral therapy that does get you in touch with those irrational thought patterns, I'm weak, I'm helpless, this will never end, this doesn't work, it's never going to get better, there's nothing I can do, I have no agency, I'm powerless. Starting to recognize those thought patterns and understand that these, just because they're so loud and persistent, doesn't mean they're true. And then behavioral activation. So when Charlie Wax before said, I act when I feel it coming on, he nailed it. So for me, I'll give you my own personal experience here. For me, I know that then it's time to not sit on the sofa, even though I will start to lose my motivation or my mood will get persistently low, or I'll start to feel like I don't want to do anything, I start to lose interest in things. That is, that's not just I'm sad, or I'm having a bad weekend. That's different. And I know it's different because I've been down that road and you'll know it's different too when you get there. For me, that's when I know it's time to get up and start moving, challenge myself. Historically, I might use the gym, I'm going to lift a little heavier, I'm going to run a little faster. I tend to use physical challenges for me. I don't want to do those things. I don't feel like doing those things. I have no motivation to do those things. But I know from experience that I have to act as if I want to do those things. The worst thing to do with depression is to just sit there and try to think yourself out of it. There is an activation component there and how you deal with depression. So it's not a passive just float and accept through the depressive feelings at all. It's no, I have to act while I'm feeling this way. Sometimes that act might be I'm going to go out for a run or I'm going to take a long ride in the mountains because that's what I love to do. If you can, sometimes it's literally just I am going to get out of bed even though I just don't have it in me to get out of bed today. I'm going to have to drag my rear end out of bed, brush my teeth, brush my hair, wash my face, get a glass of orange juice, maybe eat a bagel. I don't know. Like I don't feel like eating but I'm going to have to anyway. In the darkest days, those were for sure the things that pulled me out and often our people will say, yeah, that's what I had to do. I literally had to start by just taking care of myself again, even though I didn't want to. I had to challenge the thoughts that said, don't bother, don't bother. Nothing works. It doesn't matter. I have no motivation. There's no meaning. These are the statements of a depressed person. There's no meaning in this. I don't feel connected to the people around me. The world has no color in it or no meaning to it anymore. Those are the words of a depressed person. In that situation, I've got to move even though I feel that way. In terms of how do I deal with depression and air quotes, is it an accepting issue? Well, you have to accept that you're in that situation for sure, but I do not. My personal opinion, I'm going to align with the clinicians that are taking a more activated approach or activating approach to dealing with depression. We're going to shoot at those irrational thoughts. If you ever read the book Feeling Good by David Burns, like the Depression Bible or has been at least for many years, again, very dated, he does a really great job of talking about those irrational, distorted, magnified negative thoughts. But these days, we would say, yeah, that's cool. You've got to be aware of that stuff. But then that has to inform some action, which means I cannot, I can't just sit here and try to talk myself out of the idea that I'm broken or worthless. I can't because at that point I have to start to move. I'm going to have to get up and take a shower and get dressed, maybe sit out in the sun for 10 minutes. If that's all I can manage today, but it's better than just sitting passively and trying to think your way out of your depression. So that's a very broad brush, right? If you're getting help with depression, you'll likely find very similar strategies from almost any clinician that's dealing with depression, right? Some will take the approach that we have to dig and dig and dig to find the cause of your depression. But many understand at this point, like, no, there's a behavioral activation component to that. We have to start to challenge those negative thought patterns. And especially if you've been pressed by anxiety for a very long time, those negative thought patterns start to take hold there. Especially if you're stuck in your recovery or you've been trying to somehow find ways to manage your anxiety and you can't because it doesn't work so well. You have to recognize, like, oh, that's right. I'm starting to believe what's in my head that I'm worthless. There's no point to all of those things. And I'm going to start to challenge those things, even though I don't feel like challenging them. And even though I would go to the gym and lift a couple pounds more than I did last week, normally it'd be like, yay, but on those days it would be like, yeah, whatever. But I did it and over time it would start to lift me out of that. And that's kind of what we start to see. So behavioral activation is really important in that situation. And it can be small. It's okay. You just can't sit passively. So no, do the same rules apply? No, we do not passively float and accept and try to float through depression and those feelings. We get up, we move, we challenge them. That's a very simplified 50,000 foot view, broad brush view, but that's that's the difference here. Like we would not just sit. You don't sit with depression. You sometimes you do because it's always going to be with you, of course, but generally speaking, you don't just sit there and passively hope that it goes away or passively just try to try to think those those feelings away. Kind of tough. So let's see what else we have here. I like I'm going to put this last comment up right here. Morning routine was super helpful in my depression cannot agree more. I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of the morning routine for both anxiety recovery and depression in in my most depressed times, that breaking the habit of opening my eyes in the morning and just laying there. Honestly, you know, I can, you know, you guys understand how it is. This is not anything I'm not I'm not embarrassed by this, but in those days that might open my eyes and I would literally lay there for hours and hours and hours just laying there and like I had to break that habit in the worst way. So I started some days with just like, I'm going to get up. I'm going to put on something and then I'm going to brush my teeth, wash my face, brush my hair. And then if I want to come back to bed, I come back to bed. And then once I was at least up, then I would be like, all right, let me go into the kitchen and get myself a glass of water. That's good for me. I should drink water, right? I was literally doing stuff like that. It made a difference. The morning routine is important, very important. Helps get moving. It's a big deal. This is good. Depression to do list. A basic simple checklist of basic self-tested tasks. Yeah. And when you're in a depressed state, a truly depressed state, not I'm sad and I'm afraid that I'm going to be depressed, it can be really hard to even think of things to do. So that's a great little checklist there. One good depression checklist is drink, drink water, brush your teeth, comb your hair, put on some, put on a shirt. Like those are okay tests to do. It's all right. Be super careful about this. Like really trying to technicify this, take a metacognitive approach to the thoughts, just challenge the thoughts. So when everything in your depression says like, there's no point in doing this, forget metacognitive, get metacognition, get up. Like I have to get up and do something here. I'm going to have to fight this. So in a way you can look at it as fighting. Some people, you know, I'm a big fan of saying like, we're not slaying anxiety. We're not anxiety warriors. But when it comes to depression, I'm a little bit more likely to adopt that warrior stance because you are in a way standing up and sticking your chin out and putting your chest out and saying, I'm doing this, even though you're telling me not to do it. So don't worry about overanalyzing whether you're taking a metacognitive approach or not. It's just act, act. I don't mean acceptance of commitment therapy. I mean do stuff. Again, very broad brush here, right? It's what I can do in a YouTube video. Yeah, this is a little bit of a, I mean again, broad brush, right? A little bit of a simplification, but this sort of applies. Like get up and live your life no matter how you feel or think is kind of one of the principles. Can't argue with that. It's true. Let's see here. This is really interesting. Vera, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this. I think having debilitating anxiety and panic disorder is fixing my negative thinking patterns and ironically improving my depressed days. I'm assuming this, and you could feel free to comment again if you want to clarify this, but I'm assuming you mean that the work you're doing with the panic disorder is actually improving the depressed side too. And I would agree with that 100% because the techniques or the ways that you would start to work on exposures or meet challenges or drop your avoidance look very similar to what you would do to activate yourself in depressed states to not get stuck in those loops or obey those thought patterns. Okay, thanks Vera. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. That makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. I'm seeing a vitamin D here, a vitamin D conversation. I'm buying all the vitamin D. Let's see here. Is it bad that I'm prepping from my went to depression with getting my vitamins and diet in order, scheduling activities? No. No, you know what, Kathleen, you're allowed to take care of yourself. Like I don't have a problem in any of that stuff to be honest with you. Is it bad that I'm prepping from my went to depression? Vitamins are good for your body. Like everybody should be well nourished. Like having a good diet is a good thing. Like scheduling activities instead of sitting on the sofa for four months in the cold is a good thing. And if you like your daylight lamp, have at it. That's fine. I'm a huge fan of that stuff. If it improves your mood and it makes you feel better and it makes you more functional and more than anything else, if it feels like you are doing something to take agency and take care of yourself, big thumbs up for me. So it's not a problem. I go for it. If that stuff works for you, I'm a fan. Let's see here. I think with depression or bad anxiety, sometimes it's just one day at a time, which is very true. Amy, thank you for pointing that out. For sure. Let's see here. Yeah, see, there we go. Thank you for sharing this, Kaelin. I appreciate it. Kaelin, Kaelin, I feel like when I challenge my depression instead of sitting with it, I am able to get past it. Yeah. And again, that is my MO also. Like I know what to do when it starts to happen. Okay. So I'll put this up on the screen. Of course, you don't want, so afraid I will want to end. So Christine, I know that you don't want to, like you're very being very clear here. And by the way, if you do want to, please, please then you have to reach out. So if you do, there's a very big difference here. If you actually have a plan, if you want to do that, then you reach out for help immediately, like immediately, in person help. But in this situation, I'm afraid I might want to do it is an incredibly common fear in this community. I promise that you're not alone in that. Many people in this room, there are now 68 people in the room. I guarantee you there's at least 15 other people who have been afraid of that at one point. I do not want to harm myself. I do not want to die. I want to be here, but I'm afraid that something will happen that will make me do it anyway, will make me want to do it. It is incredibly, incredibly common, Christine. I promise, I know how scary that thought is, but it's still just a thought and it can't hurt you. Even though that's super, super disturbing. I get it. I used to ask for people to hide the scissors and I would hate to see the knives in my house and I did all that stuff. So I get it. It's a bit of a sensitive topic for me because those were tough days and I know that it feels so important. That thought feels so important, but I promise it won't make you do a thing you don't want to do. We start to care when somebody begins to say, I think I might want to do this and I'm going to start to make a plan and I'm going to look to see what my opportunities are to harm myself. Then we care and then it's time to get in-person help right away. But if you are just afraid that you might somehow snap and do it or do it against you, well, that's not a thing you have to worry about because it doesn't happen. I promise, I promise you're okay. Hang in there, Christine. I know that's super scary, right? You know why that's really scary along the topic of depression? And that's one of the things that people most fear about depression. I think I'll get depressed and I will lead to that ultimate end game, which is of course scary. That's very, very disturbing thought. So it's natural to be really disturbed by that. And people will say, well, of course I should love to live. I should not even think about that word. The word suicide should never even enter my mind. So it's like we've constructed this ridiculous expectation of ourselves that I should never even consider anything or think about that. I should love life so much. And then when it does start to creep in, it freaks you out. So I get that. But your level of freak out doesn't indicate is not equal to the level of danger. High level of freak out, still a little of danger. I promise, right? Doesn't match. Let's see here. Yeah. Say thank you. I appreciate you sharing here because it helps everybody feel a little less alone, right? I definitely in this, in my experience, I'm scared that I will feel suicidal. I don't, but I'm afraid that I will get like that. Sure. So there's either the, I'm afraid that I will somehow instantaneously in a moment snap and somehow become instantly suicidal and do something horrible. Or over time, I will slide into the pits of depression because I'm sad today. So I'm going to project in six months, I'll want to kill myself. See how that anxious mind kind of works that way. I've been sad for three days. I've had a tough weekend or I, you know, I'm feeling a little, I'm having a hard time finding motivation, do my exposures. So I'm going to project six months down the road to the point where I'm actually suicidal when I kill myself. That's what anxious brains do. Let's see here. I'm going to put this up. This is important that we do this. I go through, I have told myself, if I get to that point, I actually start thinking of a plan. Thank you, Don. This is very, this is good. This is a good way to think about it. I have told myself, if I get to the point that I actually start thinking of a plan, I will call 911 or drive myself to a hospital. Thank you, John. That's a, that's a good plan. Right? You know, you don't want to. And if I ever did, I will reach out for help. That's a really good answer to that thought. I appreciate you sharing that. This, I appreciate too. Thank you, Kalen. Isn't the thought, what if I decide to hurt myself and turn into a penguin at the same level? It sure is. It sure is. Even though turning into a penguin is something we will laugh at and say, well, that's, that's impossible. That's absurd. But what if I accidentally or unwittingly decide to hurt myself? Oh, I love it. I don't listen to the podcast anymore. Let's put that because I like that. I'm kind of depressed. I don't listen to the podcast anymore. And so what Kalen is saying is correct. Believe it or not, what if I decide to hurt myself against my will and what if I turn into a penguin really are the same level of danger? They just don't carry the same level of emotional significance because no one is emotionally invested in the idea that you might turn into a penguin. Nobody fears that because you know, it's not true. But just because the other thought comes with a lot of emotional charge to it, we would assume that that must mean, oh, then it must mean that it's more likely to be true or it's a dangerous stuff, but it's really not. So it's not that we're trying to like minimize the fear or the disturbing nature of those thoughts. I'm not. We need to acknowledge that it is all listen, all of this stuff, whether it's disturbing harm about disturbing thoughts about harming yourself or just the fear of depression or not wanting to become depressed again, all reasonable things, right? Emotions get triggered, feelings get triggered, memories get triggered. None of this is a crime, but just be careful about getting trapped in the idea that like, well, just because I think I'm going to be depressed or because I fear depression, it must mean that I will or I'm buying, not buying into, but I'm misinterpreting all the data or the information that I'm fed on social media and that's making me feel worse about it. And if you do find yourself in a depressed state, it's, you know, accept that you're there and you got to do something about it. And then it's a more active approach. So that's how I can basically sum up today's video. It's those things. We spent 52 minutes getting there, but I think it was pretty good. And you guys are really good today in the comments section. I absolutely appreciate it. Let's see here. Well, hang on a second here. They're so scary because they feel like they are urges. No, they're so scary because you're afraid they will become urges. And I think that's super important. You don't want to do it. So you do not have the urge to do it. You're not afraid of an urge. You're afraid that a thought will become an urge. If you listened to the podcast episode he did years ago with Dr. Martin Seif, he came on the podcast first between the two of them, Winston and Seif. He came on first. I don't remember which one it is. If he just search for it, Martin Seif, you'll find him is the first one. He addressed this specifically. People will think that those thoughts, because they are emotionally disturbing to them, they have to worry that they might become urges. They do not become urges. So you're not worried about an urge. You're worried that a thought will become an urge because it has emotional significance to you. Again, if you thought, like, what if I begin to love blueberries? What if I want to eat a blueberry? Like, if you don't like blueberries and you had to thought, what if I want to eat blueberries today? Like, you wouldn't worry that that would become an urge. I don't know. I guess maybe I'll have, maybe I'll develop an urge and eat a blueberry that I hate. You wouldn't worry about that urge. You only worry, but you know that it won't happen. But you worry about the urge that the thought will become an urge because you're charging up emotionally by the thought. So it's important, right? So I know it sounds like semantics and it is, but it can help us navigate a little bit better. All right, guys. I'm out the door. I got some stuff to take care of today. Thanks for hanging out. I appreciate it. Every other Monday we do these on YouTube and on Facebook and in the Facebook group and even on Twitch. So hello, Twitch. Thanks, Twitch audience. All two or three of you that are here this week. The best way to come back and watch these or even to comment on these probably on my YouTube channel. So if you're not subscribed to the YouTube channel, go do that. There's a whole playlist called Recovery Monday. I will see your comments. If you comment on this replay for sure, and I'll answer them on Facebook, it's hit or miss. I honestly don't know. So, yeah, we'll be back again next Monday and then not next Monday, the Monday after, and then next week we'll do an episode of the anxious truth. And what are we coming up on disordered on Friday? Don't remember. Oh, Friday is disordered. Podcast to do with Josh is about maintaining momentum and motivation and recovery, which is another pretty popular topic. So check this out at disordered.fm. What else can I tell you? That's it. We're out. Thanks for chilling, guys. See you next time.