 Welcome. This is the Education Committee and the Mont House of Representatives, and we are delighted to have three people here to help us hear more about the final select committee report select committee on higher education as some of us remember we worked really hard on creating this committee last year. And really looking forward to hearing thoughts on this report. So I'd like to first welcome Joyce Judy back to committee and please provide us your testimony it's always nice to see you. Thank you, thank you chair web and thank you to the entire committee for asking us to come back and and talk with you about our final report. As I, the way we're thinking about this is I'll do just a few very brief remarks, and then I will ask Brian Prescott who is who has worked so closely with us as as a consultant, and he will walk you through some of the changes and talk to you and also about some actions that this committee might think about in terms of legislative initiatives, as we think about the future of public higher ed in Vermont. And then Chancellor Zanatni will talk to share with the group, the act, all the work that has been going on in the system as a result of the plan. So that's that's our, that's our sort of thinking. Just as a reminder to this group. Our process we, we, we did an RFP, and we worked really closely with the joint fiscal office and I just want to say that it's my was one of my first experiences working really closely with the joint fiscal office and I can't say enough really good about them they worked really closely with us and were tremendous support so just a big thank you to joint fiscal and especially Joyce Manchester she was just incredibly invaluable. But as a reminder, we had the, the, our committee had three deadlines that we need to meet one was we need to produce our first report our initial report in December. And then we prepared a second report for early February, and then our third and final report came out to all of you in early April. And I hope you've had a chance to read them I'm sure you memorized all almost 200 pages of it but we'll give you a pass if you missed a few pages. Okay, I have to say on as chair of the group I want to thank you for your part in helping to put together really diverse and committed committee, because I think one of the things when you start out as as a chair of a group of people that you have not worked with before you oftentimes wonder what is their level of commitment and are they going to attend and all of that I can say that this group met regularly from September to April. And we had nearly perfect attendance at every meeting. And so that says something I think to the folks that you assembled but also to the urgency of the topic, and how important it is, it is to reminders. I also want to give a special thanks to one member of your committee representative James who was very actively involved and I will say her counterpart with Senator Bruce was. They were just really, really strong participants and you know I've been around long enough to know that this isn't always the case. And so I just really want to thank them both but especially here today representative James for her willingness to dig in and really ask a lot of thoughtful questions and be a really active, active participant. But you know this group, our intention with our reports was to really figure out how to set the guardrails for work going forward. What's important for us is to make sure that we kept at a certain elevation to provide the guardrails, but not get down into the management and making decisions that weren't that weren't appropriate for our group and so I think that I hope you'll see the balance that Ryan shares, and then what Sophie will share that it I think you're going to find that that work really complements each other, and that this our report was really to provide direction, and to provide forward looking in a broad sense, but then allowing the Vermont State Colleges Board of Trustees, and the colleges to really take that, and really make it and put it into practice. So I hope you're going to see that this report laid out laid out a plan, and that how it's being implemented in part there's a lot of work going on now, particularly also with with the support of the legislature in terms of helping the Vermont State Colleges really chart a path that hopefully will be financially sustainable but also equally important that serve Vermont and Vermonters in a way that is really important going forward. So will that with that I want to turn this over to Brian Prescott and again another thank you there is, you know we put out an RFP for for a consulting consulting firm and the National Center for Higher Education Management Systems, you know was put in a really solid proposal, and I have to say it has been a true pleasure working with them and I think that they would also say that I think they know they wouldn't say this I will say that that they went above and beyond what was expected and what the RFP asked them for asked us and it just has been amazing Brian has been in front of many many different groups in Vermont I think he also, even though it's been zoom I think he feels like he has lived in Vermont, just virtually, but he's made himself available and I think you, he's been here all the time and I think you'll agree with me that it's been really nice having out a set of outside eyes, look on Vermont situation and really help us think through some things with through a different lens. So with that I will turn it over to Brian and ask him to sort of walk us through the changes, but also what this committee should be thinking about going forward. Thank you very much and welcome Brian Prescott it's nice to see you again we look forward to hearing your testimony. Thanks very much and thanks Joyce for those kind words as usual. It's been disappointment that I haven't been able to come to Vermont in person and see you all three dimensions but we're doing our best under the circumstances. I'm not going to try to talk for too terribly long and yield. Most of the time to Sophie into questions from the committee, but I would start by saying that Joyce to be a favor by reminding you all of the timeline that we worked under so a lot of at the select committees. So thank you for your encouragement and because we also felt it important to get as much work done as early as possible. What you'll hear from me is that there weren't a ton of major changes to talk through between the report we submitted to the joint fiscal office office in February, and the, and the April one. I want to go back just a step and say the, the vision here the select committee and the work that we did is trying to think about a vision for the Vermont State Colleges and for public higher education in Vermont that not just puts Vermont State colleges on a financially sustainable path, but also better serves the needs of the state overall as those needs are evolving with time with demographic changes and so forth. So I think that the select committee articulated some ideas about how the Vermont State Colleges should become more nimble should should be to generate more relevant programs at the same time that it's that it's putting its financial house in order so at the end of the day you get a set of institutions that work work for the state better and also under a business model that will will be will maintain its success in doing so for the time period in the future. I would just remind folks just that referencing my comment earlier the big picture of the of what we produced in the report this April is not substantively different than what you saw in February there are some changes I'll articulate them but the executive summary the top level were largely unchanged there were some some adjustments here and there, but I'll just go through them really quickly that there's no time to waste that missing in the policy sort of infrastructure in the state is a set of objectives for the Vermont State Colleges and for public higher education that the Vermont State Colleges clearly need to transform and and the select committee put forward recommendations as pretty far back that unifying Castleton NVU and Vermont State Vermont Tech College, Vermont Technical College into a single accredited institution was the strategy that seemed the most that by the according to the data conversations would be the best solution possible and that would include a redesign of educational delivery, new programs and expanded target audiences for the work of the Vermont State Colleges. It would also include important administrative consolidations to achieve greater efficiencies. There is a recommendation that you've probably seen and debated at length around strategic funding requirements for both for transformation and for ongoing improvements and in affordability and capacity. And then finally that the state consider adopting an affordability standard that that really helps the legislature monitor how things are going around how well students are able to afford especially low and middle income students are able to afford college in Vermont. So there was some new content in the in the final report that that relative to the February 12 submission I'll just quickly outline those. One is that there was a substantial reorganization of the of the document and particularly around the data exhibits which we supplemented, but no substantive new findings related to any of that this is all data that we'd had from earlier but just needed more time to integrate it in a way that told them clearer I think more straightforward story. A big chunk of the new content was related to implementation steps. So once we got through February and had the recommendations in place we we worked with the select committee to identify the entities that needed needed to think about what what steps would they be taking in order to pull the the the whole project across the finish line as it were. These implementation steps came we included milestone dates for some of them, particularly for the Vermont State College Board and Chancellor's Office in order for the legislature to be able to perceive progress towards the goals because this as we've talked about as a multi year process and those milestone dates and implementation steps as they relate to the Vermont State College system were closely aligned with the metrics that were negotiated between House of Props and Vermont State College Board and I see Representative Fagan has joined us I know he was involved in those conversations. So there were also some implementation steps for the legislature and I'll get to that just a moment, but as well as for the governor and and for the business community. We also return to the subject of the physical spaces and we we felt from an external point of view that there was some ambiguity in the authority that the Vermont State College Board has to dispose of property physical spaces. So we we added some language to talk a little bit about that. And then finally, a new recommendation was that we recommended that the legislature expresses intention to create a requirement that financial aid form completion be part of high school graduation requirements and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment. Now for the legislature. We identified some things that that could be helpful for how said and the other parts of the legislature to take up as as this goes forward in addition to the funding issues that I think has been pretty much rightly so the focus of a lot of the activity that's happened. I would note that these items are captured in the second in the new implementation steps section of the report and they begin on page 107 of that final report. The first and some respects most important among them is for the legislature to adopt some policy objectives that will guide funding by the state and the Vermont State College System Board for distributing state funds and resource allocation. Generally, right now the the policy objectives are relatively missing and as far as we could tell and so we. We urge the legislature to take that up and I think with the last time I was in a peer appearing at this committee representative James outlined a strategy for doing that. Going forward, and, and so I am I'm expecting that that that's still part of the discussion I would just add that there are some ideas that the select committee used as as as established some policy objectives, and use them to establish criteria for evaluating the impact of this report that provide a potentially useful starting point for that discussion. The second item in that section is the need to clarify the authority to dispose of physical property in order to give maximum flexibility to the Vermont State College Board to make effective and efficient use of physical spaces. The lack of clarity I think in here and I'm not a lawyer, but you know as we look at it, it, it, the statute gives the state college board, the authority to own real estate and must protect preserve and improve and promote the use of that property and it may acquire hold and dispose of property, but it is not authorized to close any institutions and so there is some question as to the degree to which the Vermont State College Board may be able to to to, at some point dispose of property that is that has debt obligations on it, or would would be like the last piece of property on on a campus and what to do about the campus site itself. I'm not suggesting that the closure is part of the discussion, but I'm just pointing out that there is some ambiguity, I think in the in the in the statute that the legislature might want to consider taking up and providing the State College Board with greater clarity in that regard. The second one is this FAFSA requirement, and initially we suggested that the select committee articulate a recommendation that the legislature impose a FAFSA requirement for college for high school graduation that is to say, in the middle grade, high school, high school, 12th graders should have completed a federal financial aid and state financial aid form. This is a thing that is becoming more regular among states there's, there's three that have that in place, one has passed a new FAFSA requirement this during this this current session. And with the changes to the simplification of the of the federal financial aid form, at least one of the legitimate major obligations is weak, major objections to that gets weakened a little bit. There is some evidence that doing so increases the number of students filing FAFSA learning about college opportunities and ultimately enrolling, but there's a lot of implementation questions that are are in need of being answered. And so we recommended that, or the select committee adopted a recommendation in the April report that wasn't there in the February report that the legislature expresses intention and encourage a study of how to implement a FAFSA requirement in the coming years related to that and when I say FAFSA I'm talking about the free application for federal student aid, but I'm also suggesting that the that the state financial aid form be included in that as well. The third, the fourth out of five total things I'm going to mention here is the adoption of the affordability standard and the expectation that the legislature require and review monitoring reports around affordability that would be produced by the Vermont Student Aid Commission going forward and and so we are and there's a there's a there's a great deal of detail related to what an affordability standard would look like, and I can talk more about that if you if you wish. And then finally, an area that we thought was important to raise, but we're unable to resolve in the select committee was what to do about post secondary career technical education to adults and adult literacy education programs that exist in Vermont but are highly uncoordinated across the state. So, in 2019 legislature passed Act 80, which authorized a study to examine workforce development investments. And then that my understanding is that that report got table due to coven and the challenges associated with that they were very close to signing a contract to have that report done but ultimately it was deemed to be a lower priority than dealing with cases that came to workforce development around coven and another things. We, we encourage you to, to resume, return to that topic. This is a topic that deserves some some focused attention, and to the degree that it. I think that the legislature takes it up again I think that the recommendation we made is that it should carefully assess the possible role that the Vermont State college system would play in that arena and with what funding support. It would require in order to do that well. So those are the things that are new or that's my sort of prepared remarks around what's new in the April final report relative to the February report. I think I'm turning it back over to, well I'll turn it back over to the chair to determine whether or not we want to move forward with Sophie or if you have questions for me at this point. Thank you. I'm almost inclined to hear from everybody in the, in case the Chancellor answer some of those along the way so I'll hold question please please everybody hold write them down. And we'll get to them shortly. So, welcome back, Chancellor Sadatni. Nice to see you again as, of course, thank you for having me back yes. And today I was just reminded I just received a delivery of flowers today is actually my one year anniversary of being appointed as the interim chancellor for a few days so I'm here one year later so. I appreciate you having us back. And my understanding is what you're interested in hearing from me is really what the response has been from the Vermont State colleges to the select committee's work. So again we're really appreciative of all the work that NCHEMS did and the other members of the select committee. We were very happy that the recommendations and support for the report was unanimous. I think this speaks volumes for the work that went on and the recognition of how important the Vermont State colleges is to the state and the importance of figuring out a path for us moving forward. So, just to quickly recap where where we are right now within the system. We had five to six weeks of public comment back in in January and February for people to respond to the initial report that the select committee put out. We then had a listening session with the board after the February report came out, at which the board did receive considerable feedback from a wide range of stakeholders both internal and external. And then there was a full board meeting on February 22nd. And at the February 22nd board meeting, our board moved forward with adopting the key recommendations from the select committee's February 20, February report. And again, as as Brian indicated, the key recommendations have not shifted since that time. The primary recommendations were the administrative consolidation system wide, and then this common accreditation and common leadership for three of the institutions so northern Vermont University, Castleton University and Vermont Technical College. The board recognized that for the transformation that this would entail for it to succeed. We were going to need to continue to receive that the recommended funding from the legislature that set forth in the report that this is a multi year process. Also, it would obviously be contingent on net she the New England Commission on higher education, our accreditor approving the change which you know we, we will be doing going through that substantive change process in the next year or so. And also that the pandemic is somewhat under control hopefully and everyone gets vaccinated and we can return to something like normal in the fall you know we've been in a very strange year. This past year with with the way we've been teaching and the burden said that's put on everybody. There are a lot of initiatives to support transformation that are already underway. Some of these date back to the to the fall, but I did want to run through all the steps that are currently underway so the creation of a single general education core curriculum began that work began in the fall. It's currently working its way through our faculty assemblies. We're cautiously optimistic that that that will get resolved. Again, we've got four different faculty assembly so it's you know we've got to work through the process that we have for faculty governance, but it looks like we're on on track to get that resolved. We've also been looking at an expansion of the virtual library that currently exists at the Community College of Vermont and Vermont technical college and expanding that system wide. There's been some work on that the decision was made that really to move that forward we need to hire a Vermont State College system director of libraries to really lead that project. And we're in the process of I think the position is already being posted but we're moving forward with that we have a committee of folks from across the system, including, you know staff and faculty that are involved in the libraries as part of the committee on that. We also are currently working with an external consultant on evaluating our academic program array. So again we've got, you know three different institutions. We have to figure out how to bring them together. There's a lot of duplicate we're not a lot but there are some duplication of programs, and we need to figure out how to how to deliver the education we provide in a more efficient way. So we've been working with an external consultant and with our academic leaders. We've been bringing the academic leaders to faculty leaders in to that process the data has been shared publicly it's available on our website. Faculty leaders have met with the external consultant and there's a town hall meeting happening tomorrow for all faculty to participate ask questions of the external consultants. And they'll be, they'll be preparing a final report that will go to board committee and then to the full board. And then we also expect the faculty will be working on this over the summer as well so we're still in the early stages of, you know, figuring out exactly what that will look like but we're getting to, you know, to creating the structure we need for that work to move forward. One of the recommendations that came out of the select committee report was, was really the, the importance of having professionalized project management as we move forward. This is an enormous undertaking and I, I think I realized day by day how enormous it is and how it's even more enormous and more complex and perhaps I had thought it was. In the process of looking for and hiring a director of transformation projects. We've had interviews with two finalists this week already we have another one tomorrow we're anticipating making that decision shortly. And that I think will really help bring some of that professionalized project management into the transformation work that we're doing. We're also looking to hire a president for the new combined entity, and we will be issuing an RFP to retain a search firm to help us with the hiring of a president for this new institution. And that will be happening within the next few weeks. In the meantime we also have created a number of system wide working groups and cross function working groups. Most of these have been meeting regularly for the past couple of months since the board's decision in February, and some of the areas that are meeting our marketing folks admissions, development and alumni relations registrars financial aid accounts receivable workforce development, and there are some others other groups that are also working together right now career services and then it working with facilities and public safety to think about issues, you know it issues related to that. At this point the different groups are identifying the timelines that must be met, in order to obtain the common accreditation that was seeking by July of 2023. They're looking at the sequencing of projects within their particular function areas, and then what's going to be involved to align our business processes policies and procedures as we move forward. So coming out of those groups, we do have an RFP that is going to be going out. It may be early next week, but looking for market research on possibilities for a name for the new combined entity, as well as the branding and all the other information that that's you know to create the identity for this new institution. We will be looking at seeking public input on the name that's obviously going to be a very big issue, a very contentious issue for many people. But we're again we're trying to make sure we're involving as many stakeholders as we can with that. Our workforce development group, they started working together back in the fall when the legislature created the workforce initiative using some Kersak funding. They came together across the system to implement that, and they continue to meet after that workforce initiative, which is useful because in House Bill 315 that just recently passed into law there was the workforce initiative 2.0 in that. So they're looking for ways to work even more seamlessly together a way to streamline the registration system, provide an orientation for applicants so when they sign up for courses. They're signing up for things that will be most beneficial for them and best meet their needs. So they're they're already moving forward with that. Our IT information technology is working on a number of projects, including a unified system wide help desk, redesigning our portal. They've also been regularly meeting with our data management system vendor to facilitate and redesign and streamline our business processes because again so much of everything is driven from the IT and so we need to make sure that we have as a really solid foundation for all the work we're doing as we move forward. One of the other pieces of strategic financial plan is something that our business affairs council is working on and that's scheduled for completion in the fall. We are also constantly working on our communications plan. We're currently providing updates we've started doing that every two weeks. To all faculty staff and students. We meet with senior leadership teams at the colleges very regularly. We have a website up that contains all the transformation documents resources opportunities for providing feedback. We've done a series of student forums we have another one next week. We also have monthly meetings with union leadership just to make sure we're trying to keep everybody on the same page and understanding what we're doing and where we're going. A couple of other recommendations that the select committee had was that the board of trustees work with a coach or a consultant to help them. You know get through what will be very very challenging work moving forward. And so the board has already acquired the services of Jim Page who was the former chancellor of the University of Maine system, who had done a report. He was an external consultant for the Joint Fiscal Office last summer and had done a report on the Vermont State Colleges, and the board has already started working with Jim Page and has been engaged in a number of development services with him. And a number of development activities and those are continuing. And then the other one of the other implementation recommendations that was in the select committee report was the board develop strategic priorities with metrics. And that was something that the board has undertaken and did complete that work actually in the fall in developing their strategic priorities and the metrics to be used. You know, in connection with their strategic priorities. So that's really an update on where we are right now in response to the work that's been done by the select committee. So again happy to answer any questions I do know representative James had also been interested in what's happening on the Senate side with funding and I can address that too but I thought maybe now maybe be more questions in terms of the select committee, the report and the progress that we've made. This is so very much appreciate hearing from all of you this was something that was very important to our committee last year, and making sure that we had a voice and how you would move forward and setting up this select committee so this is this is very meaningful to us. Okay, there's quite a list of things to do that I'm looking at I'm looking at some of the things before the legislature and I understand. I just want to check in with our own member who is also on the select committee is my understanding that you, over the, you are planning to work on something that to bring for us maybe I could ask you and and representative Fagan to help us. We're not prepared to draft that right now let me just put it that way. So just reaching out to to our members on the select committee. Yep, that's that's correct. Think that I see his lips moving. Representative Fagan and I will be working over the summer to get a bill together and get everything kind of neatly packaged and brought to the legislature for next session. Peter nod your head if you good excellent okay great thank you. Thank you so much for coming to me and Chester's easy. There's always down there that are my favorite places in the world. Sounds good so we'll be taking a look at all the, all the recommendations and sort of marching orders for the legislature to begin on. So I would say start on page 107 of the final copy of the report, and those are the things we'll need to take a look at, and get into legislative form so I think that's going to be a great project I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's helpful to include someone from the Commerce and Economic Development Committee as well as they have spent significant time on workforce and I know I was hearing about act 80 and how that got stymied and I just want to check with Representative Jerome do you know is there further progress in that area at this point or is it. It was put on hold and we have asked that it be completed. Okay, great. I think it's in some legislation that we that we've asked that it be finished. Thank you. Representative Austin. Yep. Thank you. You know I'm just looking over right now. I'm just going to take a look at the next sheet for the American jobs plan that is coming down from President Biden, and looks like they're I mean it's just noodles of money coming for workforce development post secondary education, paying for colleges, 38 years, this is nationally for workforce development I just hope when you're again I think it's a new context that we're now looking at maybe some of these recommendations in terms of funding or workforce. If you, you know I just hope over the summer, Representative James, you know that when this does, you know when it becomes the guidelines and everything become clearer. You can kind of look at what the goals are and look at what funding possibilities, there are there's a lot of possibilities for workforce development and certification and construction transportation caregiving and manufacturing clean energy. So it'd be just wonderful if the colleges. I mean I just, you know, it's very simple to me to just say if the college is just kind of aligned with some of that those, you know, the workforce options. It just seems like it's it would be a good match. I know it's much more complex than that but I just hope that that will be taken into consideration. I'm going to just check in I'm assuming Joyce Judy and Sophie said that you are well aware and working on. Yes, I will certainly be paying attention and keeping fingers crossed that it makes it. Yeah, the legislation moves forward. And that could be could be a real gift to help us do this transition and represent a pagan. Thank you Madam chair so I've got to go vote on another bill I'll just make this short one of the interesting things about governmental accounting is that almost after the fact we can swap funds out. In other words if the if this bill if you know I was listening last night and when he said talking about the Pell Grant for example it sounded like doubling it. So I think that of the Pell Grant would would make, you know, would make CCV. I'll just use CCV as an example, probably free for most students whose families are in the $75 $80,000 a year area don't need to be explicit now the point I want to make is this. The funding that we might provide to to CCV to the state colleges and CCV using general fund for example, we can back that out and and and insert the federal funds when the federal funds become available actually with federal funds wouldn't flow through us they would flow through Department of Education but because those funds are applied to the institution and the general funds are no longer necessary for that purpose we can back the general funds out so. The person like I've said in the past the person who invented governmental accounting probably was the you know it was just brilliant but might have been a little. I might have tried to play a joke on all of us and we're still putting up with it so I got to go vote on another bill not not education but another bill so I'll be right back in and if you're still here great. That's really my video often do this. Good to know representative Fagan thank you. You're welcome. Are there other questions for the people that are in our committee representative James. Brian, there's there's Brian. Brian, I think it might be interesting for folks on the committee to learn just a little bit more about the affordability standard I know as a select committee member that was a new concept to me and I think it's really interesting. I just want to try to be brief. The, the idea behind the affordability standard is that they're that in most states and I would put Vermont in this in this bucket as well. Affordability is sort of in the eye of the beholder and if there's any consensus about affordability it's generally that it's there isn't any college is unaffordable and it's getting worse. There, there isn't a very straightforward set of metrics around which to to equip legislators as they're making resource allocation decisions. How to how to think about affordability and often the students themselves as as vocal and as powerful voices they may have. They don't have the resources that that institutions often do in the legislature to talk about the needs of the institution and ultimately, we want to make sure that that the combination of funding patterns leads to affordability so the affordability standard that we like to use relies on primarily on current income and funds that that students and their families have and accounts for all of their costs of attendance including living books and supplies and you know sometimes transportation expenses as well. And then the core of the standard is that students ought to be able to afford their full costs of attendance by working an amount of time that does not that is not so that it distracts from their progress in reaching their educational aspirations. So for a full time student, we tend to think of that as about 15 hours a week throughout the entire year. 48 weeks a year another way to think about is 10 hours a week during the during the nine month academic year and full time during the summer. And at the prevailing minimum wage, and then all of the other costs associated with enrollment would need to would need to add up to the cost of enrollment that they won't, but the degree to which that gap remains is a better measure of unmet need of practice that we've done, and it allows for and the other piece of this that that I think it's important to reflect on is that because the next thing after the student work contribution sets the amount that a student self help component should be able to account for the families contribution the parent for dependent student the parent contribution is next that creates progressive picture of funding, and then all state federal and institutional grants are accounted for the remainder is what's left over that must be funded somehow oftentimes students take out loans to get that. Sometimes they work to two jobs or they work 40 hours a week while they're trying to enroll be enrolled. In order to cover the those gaps, and we believe that that that that states who use this sort of very straightforward practical approach to calculating what that what that gap is will be better equipped to think about how for students at different levels will be better equipped to think about how to allocate resources to the institutions that most serve them and to the to the financial aid programs that that really target the populations most in need. They're better able to do that than they would be in the absence of that kind of information. And so we've articulated the affordability standard in the report and urge the legislature to use it consistently year over year to evaluate how well that's working for Vermont residents. Thank you. Good question. Anyone else. Stephanie Stephanie true representative room. Thank you chair is it appropriate I asked question, even though I'm not a member of the committee. You are you are invited to participate. You are a member. I would just like to hear a little bit more from Brian on the plan of folding in the adult career technical education infrastructure within the Vermont State College system is something we've been talking about for a long time in our committee and like to hear your perspective. So in in working on that project, or that part of the part of the project, we, from an external point of view, saw that Vermont has an unusually distributed, I will say, approach to trying to deal with the career technical education programs in the state, particularly for the adult populations. And by by distributed, I mean that that each of these 17 area centers has some portion of it. But there isn't any, there's not a lot of data to allow us to understand how much of that activity is happening and what kinds of programs and and courses is that happening. Are they meeting statewide or local needs or are they responding to tuition paying. Students who need things that they're they're more interested in, rather than what would be helpful to the populations who can't afford tuition but need actual skills that can that can translate into jobs that are productive in the economy. So we identified that problem, we talked with members of the select committee about how best to address it, but because the legislature that the state has made commitments around workforce development activities in a variety of different ways. We, ultimately, did not make a recommendation as precisely how the Vermont State colleges should go about engaging in that topic, but rather that it deserves this deserves some significant study. And it, because the way in which this stuff happens, what's missing is a is a dedicated funding stream to ensure that it actually does meet the kind of needs that the local communities and the local and the state have for that kind of programming. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you. Good question. Anyone else. We will, I have to say that I hadn't quite gotten to page 107 but glad to know that that's the place that I started. Yeah, exactly. I think that is probably the best place to start right now, then go backwards. I'm pleased that there'll be more work over the summer to figure out how we can move forward with the legislation our part in this process. And I'm sure we will be wanting to hear back from you in January, as we move forward. I'm glad for those that studied the, either the initial report or the February report on the joint fiscal office website as a red line version of the final report so again if, you know, if you're short on time that's sort of quick way to see what changed between the February report and the, and the final report. Thank you. That is helpful, having, having actually fully read the other one. Okay. I think we can break them very much appreciated this update. Thank you so much for your support and especially chair web and representative James, because this is really important work for Ron. So, thank you. It certainly is. And good luck to all of you it's been a pleasure to work with you. Thank you for your work, Brian. Okay. I think we can break. I don't have anything for us this afternoon. I have word that both of the bills that were in appropriations have passed out 11 zero. So that should be then on the notice calendar tomorrow and on the floor on Tuesday. So, really thank you so much for your work and appropriations on that. I'm sorry we don't have representative Brady here because we hear that she just set a new standard for bill presentation up in appropriations. I, Madam chair, yes she did she is extraordinarily knowledgeable about the bill that she would she would be reporting we asked for a high level overview actually she figured that we would want a high level overview she did a wonderful job. And, and then we talked about the, the, the appropriations that the single appropriation that is embedded in it, but why it's important.