 I thought it was a pretty good time. Oh, OK. Yep, this is Harvard already interested in psychology. So I am a Harvard person here out of Daytona, Ohio. It's a special college for Wright State University in Daytona, Ohio. And apparently, my day job, I do Harvard already for the purposes of exploitation. After that, it's pretty redacted because it's a good contract that I would be interested in. I can't go too much into that. My secondary job, I freelance with my own company, Augmented Economics, and there I consult serving other DOD contractors. And both there, I just do front-of-war bearing and radar kind of just consulting. And the FPGA work, and then it's a design verification test of PCBs. So most of my background actually came from my design work at a previous internship, where I actually worked on an ordinary board and was testing out the signal of pegardine with DDR4 RAM and trying to verify that. That was quite an eye-opening experience because it's like a combination of RF concepts and just high-performance, multilayer PCB and just melting that all together, making sure nothing interferes with each other and making sure the data gets from point A to point B with any problems. Very eye-opening. Didn't learn that in school. And other times, I do audio electronics and hamburgers. So one could say that my life completely revolves around electronics and that sort of thing. Anyone going to take the hand test after this? Good job, guys. So it's really fun hobby, and I really enjoy it. Yeah, so if any of you guys are on the East Coast or are willing to travel off, last month was the Amy Hammond Show, which is the book I'm going to say, world's biggest citation-needed camera radio festival in the world, I'm going to say that. And it's pretty cool because that's where a lot of radio manufacturers reveal their new radios, and also there's a lot of really cool engineers there. So yeah, so this is a workshop. So I think I originally sent this out as a talk, and I would turn into a workshop. Yeah, especially for just 15 minutes. And the other part was, since I gave a talk similar to this in Portland, I didn't want to. I try to stay away from recycling slides and keep the content fresh and spicy. I think the only person I see it here that was applied in previous times, Joe Graham, is a very prominent person, partner person. And yeah, so here I'm going to be once again promoting PCBRA, applied at KT. It's a fantastic book, highly recommended. There's literally no other book like it in hardware version engineering, but there's hardware version. And the best part is it doesn't cost like a text book. It's just like $40 bucks on England. And Joe Graham has a chapter in there. It's pretty cool. So I'm going to talk a little bit about tools, and then hopefully I'm going to just answer some Q&A. Any problems with PCBRA, I'm going to just kind of learn. So yeah, this is a table that I thought was very appropriate. Presentation codes. Yeah, in KT's book, he kind of goes over the possible security measures that designers can actually put in for their circuit boards. And most of it is just obfuscation, but there's some other hard-core things. I don't think it's actually very good. I haven't seen it yet, but designers bring encryption ships and their products, which I wish they would do that because I mean, in IIT devices, they read everything kind of wide open. Sometimes they don't even do this work. Yeah, so it's open screen from all labels initially. They usually see the slope screen out there, and they'll put a nice JTAG label on there, and it's wide open. And so now, the one thing I have run into is this. It's a hidden routing using ASIC. So some of you guys might have, if you're happy to, might have followed the arcade hacker, which I think he is, for example, I don't know, experienced this, but I think recently he found that there was a ASIC in there that's been just rounding signals through this header that, or it's only a lot of people thought, if you plug in something there, it just killed the board, but apparently it's just gonna be a signal and it just routes the signals through the ASIC. It was kind of interesting, and it's kind of amazing that that's one of the only few things that I can refer to that actually implements some sort of like pretty good hardware versus encounter measures, they definitely wanted to protect their IP in that board, but while doing so, they made it, there's a quite a time with them working on the videos. There's a real-time clock out there where there's a battery that keeps the memory intact, and that'll last for so long, and I think that's why it's such an emphasis. I'm trying to read a lot of what you guys are saying. So here again, I've got a bunch of PCDRE, which is a fantastic book, so let's go right here. And the check is 2479, a very applicable for hardware expectation, which I know many of you are probably interested in. There's some really great strategy tactics for your RE challenges, and chapter four is five, you're brand new. There's a nice overview of JPEG and advanced hardware, at least. I like the book that they actually go, he goes over a secure JPEG, which is only right now just in a proposal stage, like it's just a concept. But it's kind of interesting to see what the manufacturers are looking at, to try to open some JPEG hardware just because, and then one of them is actually putting crypto or a key in there, so you can't just put it in there. So I'm going to send that yet. The only thing close to that, of course, is manufacturers using their own proprietary tools that are JPEG-like and can be quite expensive, ranging from hundreds of, you know, the sky's the limit, and the chapter three, which kind of hits the point of this talk, is many overriding, which, that hits a lot of key points and hardware designs, and some piece-to-piece diagrams, lay out this way, I want to basically look at that. We use a lot of trade-offs and compromise in big-life designers. Sometimes those compromises can actually lead to some hardware vulnerabilities, just like, at least, I mean, JPEG was just leaving things just labeled and white with it, and it goes over to some of your typical power supplies and holidays and animal work, you know, so, that, when you look at a board, you don't go like, whoa, this is really complicated with a board. I mean, look at it, break it down quickly, and try to figure out how it works. Tools that I typically use, my Sariac station, I have a lot of, I work really high in HACO, I work at Sariac station, and then I always have the, like, AAAD, which is a very good general group for Sariac, and, yeah, having a nice hot-hair river station, which I think what he mentioned, he was in this morning, and it's very important, and having a microscope to look at things. Has anyone tried the other SMD challenge? Wait, not in the YouTube, you haven't tried SMD challenge, right there? So, I think tomorrow they're gonna do some, like, drunk soldering or whatever, so, the SMD challenge, I actually have a misery at this one, which goes down all the way to over 1,000 or more, which is really small, but I'll pay as much as I can, so. Supposedly, I think, actually, after every component is soldered, you take a drink, or like a beer, eventually, yeah, I don't know how many people are gonna get into that, only two or one. I think someone was saying that, that one, somebody was actually getting better after every drink, so I got this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so. This is definitely a problem I face in work classes, so I just drink, I consume cookies, and honestly, caffeine, so my hands get, quite jittery, and like, on average, I'll be sorry, like, over 4 or 2, so, sometimes I wish I didn't have an alcohol-bed beverage, I just want to get some of those good. Soothe the nerves. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah. I'm making a phone call, but actually not a phone call. Cause I actually, yeah, even over 4 or 2s of a time, you know, you can probably see that there are pills. You guys do them pre-handed, but they are still quite easy to lose, if you're not careful with your tweezers, on the squat, it's easier to get there, more into the, into the, just, well, into your carpet, where no one did not, or anything. And yeah, and that's gonna give a multimeter, like, I really, I'm a really big fan of the two multimeters, just because of the really fast continuity tests, and everything, and just, this thing is going to work. I don't know if any of you guys have the Harbor Freed multimeters, which I don't use literally anywhere, because one of those, I actually blow up them with my hands, as well, I've been suffering for a very, very long. Mine was like $12, so, yeah. I mean, they give those out for free, in most, sometimes, so. So it looks good. Yeah, I love them, yeah. So, EEB Block has a really nice video on where he actually shows that it's actually more of the probes that determine how fast your continuity test is, so, yeah, even if you have, like, yeah, like a $10 multimeter, you can actually make the continuity test a little bit more accurate and better, by just investing in some good probes, so you usually just want really sharp ones. And, yeah, be careful with those, because, yeah, there's times where I'll just poke myself on the edge with my fingers. Well, three times, like underneath my fingernails, don't do that. Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah. And so, with ultralayer boards, where there's hidden traces, or hidden signal along the traces, not very hidden, so, interlayers, really high-parted traces, obviously, for the service, because you can't see them, you know, but we usually hidden by, like, ground planters or something. And so, a wide-out vest is some connective silver, a stretchy fabric, so, that's the thing, that's the fabric that you're probably buying that ain't approved, or a smart punch for wearables. It works wonders, you just clip your 1,2-meter multimeter, and then you just kind of brush it around, unpowered the board, yeah, just get them powered the board, obviously, otherwise it'll sort of slip out, but I'll just have it, like, hooked up, so I want to, like, signal wire, and then I'll just, like, search around the board, and then, yeah, I've saved a ton of time instead of waiting for X-rays from other people, so, what do you mean? It's not even with signal traces, so. Does anyone have the awesome, particularly words? I don't know. Yes. So, this is arguably one of my best reverse engineering tools, because, on the ruler there, they actually have this nice reference with all the pitches that connectors use, and so, when you want to, let's say you want to, yeah, find a J-tire you are for it, it has a very small surface mount connector here, and instead of just, like, tediously wiring, stamper wires, and the breaking ledger, why usually I like to do these two words is just, oh, this, end up sourcing the connectors, put this down on the board, try and compare which pitches, find a connector, and then some cables, so, see if my device wants to be necessary. Yeah, that also has footprints for many various components, so, it's quite nice for real, so, identifying through the surface mount points. So, yeah, having to compare with Linux is nice, we're back, because, if you needed the DD-A image from a SD card, like, or, you know, a SD card, it's really nice to have this, you know, instead of people in those windows not having support for some of those file systems. Like, yeah, yeah, so, because most of the stuff I do, I'll be extracting PGA EMMC chips, and then wiring 40 gauge, or, sorry, 40 gauge wire cables, and then routing those out to a SD card, because you can actually read most of those EMMC cards inside the SD card with just one data line and a clock, and come in line, just a nice step. Now, NAND flash, which is sometimes mixed up with, you have to, on some of those chips, you actually get a controller chip, which is not typically the source, or you have to use, I think it's the FT232H chip to actually, to actually get more complex lanes out, and then we get, you know, chip. So, yeah, anyway, it's purely learning, it makes that practice a lot easier. Just, I just have that chip extracted, and then we just say it's running, and then we'll, hopefully, if it's like two big, it'll just get a nice image. So, having the test equipment, such as a logic analyzer, like a salier, or some people might work like to call it a salad logic. I think it's a salier, for some people, it's pretty cool. So, we made the practice a little way out, right? Yes, yes, so this one, I think, is a $1,000 one right here, but they have a very gratuitous student discount, so they actually get this for having a friend, so that's what I do. And, yeah, having a nice power supply that covers pretty much up to like 36 volts is typically recommended, unless you're working with any logic. Isn't it discoverable? It's from, yeah. You know, like the Surrey? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, like the Surrey has, of course, it's a, it's a two-challenged scope, and it also has some logic analyzer features. It's a lot cheaper. And it's software-portable. Yeah, the software is really nice. It's very intuitive. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, the salier software is still kind of pretty nice. They've just now added, I think, real-time support for analyzing logic signals, so it's kind of a nice feature for a very expensive tool on that. And, but yeah, I highly recommend the, you know, the Surrey discount. It's a really nice all-round purpose tool. And as you'll see in this case, since I flew all the way from here from Dayton, it's really compact. It's really nice to travel with. I mean, I have a ride well at home, which... It's almost like a Raspberry Pi everybody. Yes. And you can also run a Raspberry Pi like this. You can actually run the software with a Raspberry Pi. Yes. And we'll put the hardware on the same, so... Is it fast enough? Like the... Yeah, oh no, so you just, like, this is by the USB tier as a Raspberry Pi, and you can still run it. So, if you have the Raspberry Pi test screen, you can have a really nice portable, like, test-equivalent workstation without, you know, actually connecting it to your PC and using that case there. Yeah, it's really convenient. Actually, on that one, you can, like, break it, you know, use it. And you still don't use it, right? Yes. Which, you know, she has, you know, like, a hundred dollars off the app. Very nice. So... I actually worked on a project. I'll show you guys instead of talking about it. So, this one actually uses the... was the Electronics Explorer board, which is their, like, higher-end test instrument that has a 4-channel scope, and it's, like, all fully integrated under a board. And that one, well, before they were required by... the National Instruments was pretty cheap with the students' accounts, so... let's see. Yeah, this was really nice to try out for a lot of people here. So... Yeah, here you have, like, a 32-bit logic analyzer, four-channel scope, two-channel arbitrary waveform generator, and triple output power supply, a couple of voltage references, a whole meter in there. Oh, and it's working so quick. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. So, a project I did in a hack-it model was actually the springless and the nice Helikin case, the Helikin style-cat case, and it's whether I was very high-end by screen or as very high-end, I was able to run that all off of there. And so, here's the... SMD challenge. That's the misery edition. Yeah. Yes, we can run that out for time. So, what was the other... should we have to say, like... what's the... Okay. Yeah. So, that's a nice tool to have. Yeah, so... Oh, yeah, compliant testers. So, you've probably seen these maybe on L-evolver or eBay. So, these are some $20 compliant testers. Like, kind of sliders, inductors, capacitors, resistors, and a couple of semiconductors. So, I'll tell you what the pinout is, as well as some characteristics, like the beta and other things that are important to the transistors. And so, I also wanted to use a work which this one's a little higher-end, but this is a dedicated semiconductor analyzer. And so, this will save me quite a few times because there are weird packages, like six pin-soil packages that will have dual transistors on them. And, like, initially you'll think, oh, it's...it just looks like a typical integrated circuit, animal-integrated circuit. Maybe it's an op-end for something. But you look up the part number, there's nothing remotely close to being an op-end there. So, if you just, like, hook up three of the leads to all part of that six pin-soil, then you'll find that... Oh, okay, there's a BJT there or there's a MOSFET on the same die. That always...at least in my case, has narrowed down my search area when I see it coming in. So, you just pick up the part code on, like, an SMD codebook and we'll use it on top of there. And then having some debuggers and programming tools, like dedicated ones, can be nice. So, for example, like, I have Admiral Ice Debugger and Programming Tools. That's kind of nice for extracting more easily from Admiral devices. Oh, yeah, sure. I should probably, yeah, probably pass some of the stuff around. Yeah, so, for JTAG, of course, there's, like, open-source solutions like the Blackmagic Pro and then Joe Graham's JTAGulator is one of one of those devices that's really nice for finding iDefine JTAG ports. And I think, what's to call it, but there's the shit graph that can do some of the same things. Oh, yeah, there's also the bus pirates. This is, like, too much of a race cycle. Yeah, yeah. Do you have, like, a e-mails out there? Not quite. Thanks. This is exactly what I did this time. Suggestions as well. Yeah, so, I'll probably put this on a Wiki somewhere, but, yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, one of the ways you can find me is probably, you know, business branches. But, uh, you're just, like, trying to, like, try some Google and you'll probably find me that's very, very hard to base that at the end of the day. Yeah, so, some parts and consumables are really nice to have in the lab while you're reverse-engineering something. There's some, uh, small-vamory related stuff. Like, some of the really thin stuff is really nice, because, uh, if you use, literally, big diameter ones, then it'll just have a nice big solder block that eventually will kind of bite you later when you try the soldering. Or, um, it'll just kind of ruin your iron if you just weld the soldering. Oh. Yeah, so anyway, um, yeah, having a nice range of woodwork blocks is really nice for the very ordinary chips. And, uh, you get chip brick, which, I think, was too quick. Uh, you don't want to use too much of that stuff because that's low temperature solder. It'll get all over your board if you tilt your board. And, um, could ruin your day if you're trying to start the chip. And, uh, having some tap-on tape is really nice for, uh, securing things down or making sure your jumper is much short when you're, uh, breaking out, uh, the J-type this directly from. Or, UR pins from a microcontroller chip. Because there are cases where, uh, debug port was, uh, not nicely labeled or you can't find it. It's just getting, except if you expect the chip or just wire it to, uh, to a directly important point. And so, uh, having a nice purple alcohol to clean things up, like the flux is really nice with some, uh, Kim-Tang, uh, Kimwise, which is like the nolint wipes. Uh, you can also use microfiber plots as well. And, uh, I think as long as you use, uh, ESD scrap, you should be okay with, yes, although I haven't really killed anything yet. Anyways, has anyone ever killed anything with ESD? Yeah. Wait, how did you do it, bro? Uh, video card. Oh, okay, oh, you did, oh, you did to a video card? So you were making a, you were building a PC? Uh, well, it worked my PC out of, but yeah, that was, that was, uh, yeah. We had actually damaged a tiny SOP-23 microchip pick. Demiso was being used for power-up, and the system was starting to behave weird, like, what is going on? Because you can't really troubleshoot it. And we de-capted and saw there was like an actual ESD damage on the die. But we wished that on any of you. Yeah, the worst is that, like, yeah, in that case, when you have used SOP out of your board, and the, yeah, the game is ruined and only the time is ESD. Yes, and, uh, okay, guys, don't buy the wireless ESD straps, uh, I actually saw those on sale at MicroCenter, uh, which is really like, they're like 20 bucks at MicroCenter, and I just, like, went that home. Yeah, and I hope this is a joke, this is a gag, they can give to someone, but hey, at least there's the 10 big old resistors, so it's the most important part. And, uh, you have having an assortment of passives that's very typical, uh, resistors that don't care for passives, so I think I have in yeah, so that's a resistor book, so that one's specifically the 0603. Having that, it is really nice just so that if you're replacing parts, or um, you happen to lose one of those service mount parts into the ether with your presers, you will have a nice assortment of them. And, uh, you can easily source the 0402s, the 0603s and the 0803s and 126s for one ear, for the other ear. And then, like, roughly around 30 bucks. It's just a nice thing to have. And, uh, having nice assortment of adapters So, to that, that book is 35. Yeah, yeah, like, it's like, a thousand, I don't know if there's something like that they, excuse me, that they advertise but, most of them are like this sort of, they're like all slide, and then these are the resistors and the passives. Yeah, most of them are actually combined like resistors and the passives and resistors. It's a great value to my hands. So adapters, pros, pros and headers are really nice to have around because you want to easily connect things without, uh, directly sawing wires that is, uh, yeah, as much as I like to talk myself into, uh, saying, oh, like, it, once you wire something out it'll be fine. It'll, no, it's gonna break. It's very likely it's gonna break. So, just having, using it as, uh, made connected as you can is really nice. So, yeah, having various amounts of pro, or different types of pro, like the, uh, Sparklin, uh, standard pro board, so, you'll see it in this grid. These are all, actually all just, what is that, uh, appropriated so you can just snap those into nice pieces and, uh, it's really nice for, uh, breaking stuff out and, you know, pour adapters and that. So you just get a good, you just imagine more. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, I think it's like a 60 by 60 grid or something, or no, it's a rectangle. So it's like 60 by 30 and that 8 points is really nice. And then, uh, so, and I said with the component analyzers, they're probably going around. Yeah, so what I typically like to do is if I run into, like, bizarre, like, sought, uh, 363 packages and that's what they are, like the six pin ones with, like, two transistors and all, typically just isolate them on this kind of, like, uh, service round pro board and then just use this to, uh, identify, uh, so. Is that a logic problem? Oh, no, this is a semiconductor analyzer, so it'll tell you what, uh, uh, what kind of transistors are in the devices or a diode or a LED. It'll even give you a pinout, because a lot of those still have, like, the base, um, oh yeah, it'll just have the pinouts mixed, uh, completely from, like, the diagrams. So we have to, uh, it's nice to have that. All right. Oh, that's okay. What, what does the IR work on that device for? Oh, on, on this? Yeah. Okay, so, um, it's an extra feature, you could, apparently, you could put your remote control with that. Yes. Okay, I don't know. It's pretty cool, like, it actually works, but, um, it just, it just makes me wonder, like, why? But, hey, maybe that's, like, another kind of, like, optics line. Yeah. Which, yeah, shout out to Jay Grenadier. The optics line. Thanks, guys. I'm not even paying them. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, yeah, uh, oh yeah, it probably grabs them into this. So, um, as you get deeper into this, if you, if you do run into, like, uh, systems with crypto modules or various encryption items, there is, uh, as Bonnie said, it's wearing the chip whisper, which is a pretty cool side channel analysis tool. Um, it's, it's kind of crazy how you can use all, like, those kind of statistics to extract the keys. And, uh, it's really cool. I highly recommend it. That's, uh, so, yeah, I'm trying to stay away from my side phone slides, but, I have a few more things to say when I do this. So, um, yeah, when you're, when you're a designer, you have to realize that, uh, a wire is not just a wire anymore. It becomes a, um, how is this done? Or, what? Yeah. It'll become, it'll start to exhibit properties that I could visualize in a, in a series, so, yeah, you can get all sorts of design techniques from that if you don't play out your board properly. So, if designers put in a lot of effort to make sure that a lot of this stuff is mitigated for, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's all about optimizing board performance and reducing those properties. And, uh, it saves time and money as well. And, uh, yeah, just knowing those rules to reduce your time in design already, because, uh, there's a lot of cases where you'll see that maybe, uh, you'll have two lines where there's a digital signal and, uh, there's a resistor in between. So, you can't quite use a continuity test. It's kind of, like, just, like, on the board. It'll, it'll, like, the multimeter will actually show that, oh, like, there's 120 ohms here, but it won't start beating. And, uh, if you, if you use the method of, uh, actually, like, clipping on some of the leads on that, uh, on a part and it kind of just using the connecting method you'll sometimes find that, oh, it goes into this resistor and then that resistor, the other end of that resistor goes into another chip. Because, uh, one thing that they try to do is kind of, uh, slow down the edges on those digital signals so that, you know, get, like, spurious R-app signals. Because, uh, that SCC doesn't like that. Or, you don't want other traces on your boards picking that up. There's crosstalk and other various things. Yeah, the biggest help for anything with hardware design is, uh, layout rules and layout reference designs. And, uh, as hardware reverse engineers this is also very useful because, um, typically, uh, you'll see that the part, well, I see, exactly, matches some of these layouts. It's like, um, and, uh, yeah, it's because design engineers don't want to take you all risks. And, uh, even with, like, something like JTAG, it even has a finite distance that it can run at. So, uh, less than 5 inches. So, that can, on a bigger board that could probably reduce your time and try to find a board that the JTAG board is. Because, uh, that's a signal that runs around 20-bit or so. If you properly lay that out, that could easily, um, that signal probably wouldn't make it to the connector in the only way to board correctly in 20-bit periods. Yes, your traces become low-passable degrees. So, yeah, there's all this stuff in data sheets, really good stuff, just, like, uh, hey, make sure your dumpers are closed, make sure your passers are closed. And, uh, it's, it's amazing because a lot of the board designs look at a word they'll, exactly the popular reference design is like, wow. Um, it's, it's not that designs were not creative or anything, it's just that, it just saves so much time and, uh, avoid, avoid so many problems to the limit, like, just sticking with the reference layout. And, yeah, some of them will actually give you layer by layer, like, so this is actually from a text minister in this data sheet. I think, uh, I think yellowing devices also does a good job and, yeah, it was, um, kind of, that's the same slide. So, in the meantime, anyone have any questions? Have you ever seen components embedded in boards? Either, either physical components or the, the board substrate and, you know, materials being used? I wish I could say yes, like, because it would be really cool to see one of those, but, no, uh, I think, yeah, the other thing that KT points on as both cases is that that is a very, uh, that's, that's a very good countermeasure against hardware use, actually, embedding components within interlayers. So, like, you'll actually have, like, all these passes or integrated circuits, like, actually within, like, your board. So, as I was saying earlier, I used, I worked on a four-layer board at one point. It, uh, created a security level. That's definitely a good place. Yeah. What's, what's a security clearance? Yeah. I can't say that. I can't say that. You can try, though. So, with all the stuff you've, all the stuff you've seen is mostly that, like, the table of obfuscation of stuff from the, the CPC, yeah. Um, so, actually, let's get back to that. So, how do you, how do you eliminate a four-layer board? So, um, so the whole thing was, I actually, I actually got to talk with a lot of those, uh, field applications engineers and, uh, sales people. It's kind of how they assemble those four-layer boards is they'll do that actually in the back room. And, uh, they'll just, like, you know, put down the epoxy and just, like, build it up layer by layer. So, the interesting part is, I learned is there's no warranty for that sort of thing. So, if one of your boards is, like, just better on arrival, then, yeah, you're out, like, it's not the fault. Like, 10 or 8 grand at that point. Your design rules are totally different. What kind of tools are you using? Uh, there I used, uh, metagraphics, like, uh, pads and, uh, I worked heavily with, uh, hyperlinks, uh, signal integrity and car integrity tools. And what's the driving, um, um, choice to, um, what's the driving, uh, the bend decision that says, oh, we need to do a 40. So, obfuscation or is it... Oh, no, so, that's... Is it element filters or is it... The interesting part is that a lot of things, like, that are that complicated, uh, typically obfuscation is, you know, once again, like, the last thing you think about, but kind of, like, unintentionally you do so. So, like, uh, which is, like, it's a benefit and a disadvantage for a retired reverse engineer. Like, it makes your job hard to return a reverse engineer report, but, uh, in this case it was, like, almost like a 2,000 pin, like, Xilinx Ultra Scale at PGA. So, um, yeah, doing that, like, kind of, double-sided, your typical double-sided, four-layer board is not possible. There's no way you're going to break out all those, uh, signals out. People at HackerCon are more and more like, oh, let's do a PGA. Yeah. What tools are they going to use when they really want to get serious about using a high-density device? Like a high-density device like that. Ooh. So, man. Software? Hardware? What kind of tools? X-ray. Yeah. Yeah, X-ray. Yeah. So, I think the one for when we got it down or I was just like, you know, sending back and then they did end up servicing it but for, like, a pretty hefty fee that I don't know about, it's probably a lot, you know, for spending minutes. Oh, it is the main thing. So, um... The metagraphic stuff is really... Oh, yeah, it's like... I know. Yeah, it was like... Uh, you'll see it and with all the things I said, it's like $80,000 or something for a year? Yeah. Yeah, annually. It's like crazy. I mean, it's highly doubtful that in the topical world we will end up ever doing a board that complicated, but... Yeah. Like, I think... Yeah, so most of the things like you get to do in Kaikai Ego looks, I mean, what, max, like 10 layers, I think, typically. Which, even at that point, yeah, like sourcing up bad and everything is pretty expensive at that point. So... Yes. Yeah, so... Yeah, I haven't learned to any embedded components, but that's also mentioned in the book as a countermeasure. Most of the time, I mean, yeah, like, it's more like a design position sometimes more than it is a reverse engineering countermeasure, because it's just convenient to have some of those components embedded in the board. Well, at the same time, yeah, it's like a countermeasure. I hear about it all the time, but I've never actually seen it. Yeah, like, I mean, I think the only time I've ever heard about it was like in school, because we're right next to Air Force Research Lab in Dayton, and I've heard that there are boards there that do implement that kind of technology, where like they actually will put embedded components, and like literally circuit board surgery is a thing when you're trying to service one of those, if like one of those embedded components goes out, you actually... I think I've heard that there's methods where they'll like, yeah, they'll X-ray the boards and then they'll like try to find a drill point and then they have to like reassemble the board like layer up from there. It's like, it's just like, it's so ridiculous. I really wish I could see it. Could you film screen that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so this is actually a table that's pulled out from the book, but yeah, these are some protection levels that you might run into. So I mean, most of the things these days they weren't to probably don't even go as far as three. Like four and five basically is where like the manufacturer will like implement crypto or something. Or like one of those embedded boards where I think it's actually like components. With that said, yeah, Joe, I guess the thing that I guess was embedded is we did have this like special, I think it was dielectric back to like a capacity between, yeah, so some planes, but other than that, I haven't run into any like actually definitely beyond the FR4. Yeah, for sure. How are you able to figure out that dielectric? Like, are there markings on it that are just like, that looks different than FR4? Yeah, it looks different. Yeah, I think there are some composites. Yeah, Roger says, yeah. Yeah, that looks very different. Yeah, that was stuff like thinking like the top layer of re-run, so like Roger was doing some like very high speed internet as well as some of the RF stuff. But yeah, I mean, at this point level five and, yeah, so four or five typically that's like your, the people who attack those kinds of things are like you can stay around laboratories or these organizations and so yeah, that kind of goes more into what actual things. So four or five, as I said, they're crypto or they're like super complex A6 where they might implement some kind of tamper-resistant tech. Yeah, so things like this where you can clearly see where analog and digital kind of are demarcated here. There's literally like a split through this thermal pad and you'll see it kind of over here. You're talking about like isolation. Yeah, isolation. Yeah, and the book is fantastic. It almost like that I think it's chapter three made over and it just kind of puts you in that reverse psychology of being like a design engineer you can easily use those concepts that are in your literacy framework because I mean, I think yeah pretty much you think if you read the book you won't really get a certain point the same, you won't be like whoa, that's really complicated and be like oh I see power supply, I see the analog section, the power section. Which book? This one. Oh, yeah, the PCB already. Oh, I don't know if you were wondering how to do this. Is that on Amazon? Yeah, that's on Amazon. It's 40 bucks, something like that. And the cool thing is that if you tell the author you block the book he'll give you all these other cool resources like actually like SMD for both comprehensive and some Vizio templates and like full previews and the cultural protection. And yeah, unfortunately there is no e-book copy because the author doesn't want to be subject to piracy or anything. Yeah, I wasted a lot of money for it. So once again like here he goes over this in the book but typically what a lot of designers will want to do is between like different planes they don't want planes to overlap because it'll cause some of the capacitance and some of your signals will be couple. Which is really bad because the awareness is some really undesirable effects and it'll be a very tough debugging. It sounds the same as mine. Did you make the slides part of the study? Or you started singing? Well, this is from a previous presentation. Yeah, because a lot of stuff like overlaps. So, yeah. This is a cool book. Yeah, it's a fantastic. Yeah, there's a lot in the book like this. So other links Yes, there's that. Finalize. Yup, there's the book. I'm surprised with your tools that you didn't go over anything box-town type of tool. Oh, box-town? Yeah. Like a purely good ejector. Like a single ejector. Yeah, so Bonnie mentioned that this morning. I think even like with like the H field it grows. Yeah, like once again, it's like a specialized tool that you can it's nice depending on your application. So far, I haven't run into a problem where I actually made it to use it. Yeah. So for the conductive test, what are the things that I won't go down with the book really well? And bring it and then using it kind of with a brush. Yeah, like a brush. I used to be a man who actually made specifically a brush. But I guess they stopped me with the Waitech SFD hand. Like 5 or 5 years. I mean, I don't know why they would discontinue such a great tool. There's probably not that many people doing reverse engineering. So they're specialized. Yeah, title. Yeah, so Yeah, really I want the stretchy type. Because that's what all of your other books and crannies and also any pads design. I happen to have Yes, I used one that was not stretchy and so the problem with padded is that if you try to push it down on certain pads or you just brush it you won't make any contact. You won't get that nice like those pads or sometimes you might have to clamp the board before hand with some isopropyl to get some oxidation on.