 someone as thrifty and frugal and maybe even cheap as me, was willing to shell out harder money to make a difference in her life and her profession than I knew other people would as well. So hi, Ms. Dina. Welcome to the You Are Well, Your Podcast. Thank you so much, Kyla. I love the podcast. I love what you're doing with it, and I'm a listener too, in addition to being a guest. Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So I was really excited to speak to you because you and I interacted a lot on LinkedIn, and I was like, well, let's talk about what's going on with you. You have a really fascinating story, and would you share some of the details of your experiences with career and law school with the audience? Sure. I actually think I, not to brag, I think I'm the perfect guest for this show because my career is a demonstration of what you can do with a law degree in many instances. So I started out like many lawyers do, going to law school by default. I didn't know why I was there. I just knew that I wanted to be in a profession, I wanted to make a good living, and after putting myself through college, I found that I couldn't even get a job that would pay enough where I could move out of my college apartment and get a car. So I had watched my father struggle raising five kids to make a living, moonlighting, and all of that, and I really wanted to be in a solid profession that paid really well, or so I thought. So I went to law school, and I didn't know anything about what would be involved in actually practicing law. I hadn't even been a Perry Mason or a watcher of TV shows about lawyers. I never thought about being a lawyer until I graduated from college and really couldn't find anything that would pay a decent living to a person with a liberal arts degree. So there I am like many people starting law school without a clue as to where it's all going to end up or what I'm going to do with that law degree. So I just kind of followed along Kyla, like a little salmon in the stream, doing all the things the professor said to do, doing all the things my fellow students were doing, and following the conventional wisdom, I clerked for a litigation firm and I took a job there without really thinking about whether or not a person who doesn't like to send food back in a restaurant should be a litigator. I just wanted a good paycheck and I had been encouraged to go to law school because I was articulate and intelligent, and those things are not really how you spend your life when you're practicing law. So I started working in a litigation firm and I was pretty unhappy from the very start. I thought maybe it was the firm, so I changed firms a few times, verified that I hated litigation, and then started a job search that was just like throwing a dart in the dark because I had no idea what I was looking for, I had no idea what I was prepared for, and I had no idea how to position myself for anything except what I was already doing, which there were plenty of firms that wanted to hire me to do exactly the same thing I was doing, but that wasn't what I wanted. I understand. I think it's so funny that you say just following along like a salmon in the stream, right? Because you're just like, well, if someone pushes you, they give you that nudge, you're like, well, they can't be wrong, let me just try it. And so I also love your example of as a person who doesn't even like to send back food, because litigators do not have to be really confrontational, but as a part of the job, you are advocating for another person, you're going head to head with the other side. So I could see how being a little reserved, a little demure would be a difficult trait as a litigator. You don't have to be arrogant or obnoxious, but you have to be able to face somebody in a deposition, in an oral argument, and do and say the really hard things. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to challenge you here. Have you learned to send back food? Oh, yeah. You don't care for it? Oh, yeah. Okay. I still don't enjoy it, though. And that's the point, you know. Yeah. Well, that's good, though. That means you're not just yelling at anybody. No. Because you have started your own business, achievement by design, LOC, where you coach other lawyers, you coach executives, you know, you have to have hard conversations with people during that, right? That's right. One of the competencies to be a coach is direct communication. And you have to be able to call somebody on the story they're telling themselves, their self-limiting beliefs, the things that they expect will happen when they have no idea. You have to be able to push back and say, what evidence is there for that? How do you know? Yeah. So would you credit that to being at the litigation firm? Or was that something that negotiating and going back and forth that you learned in law school? Well, I would say that that skill really came from my coach-specific training after I decided I was going to change careers and become a coach. But I do want to say that before I did that, I found happiness in the law when I didn't think I would be able to. I was so miserable being a litigator. I was applying for all these jobs and couldn't get them. I didn't know what I was going to do. And I hired a career counselor. Coaches weren't really around then. Coaching is a more modern development, thank goodness. But I hired a career counselor who helped me discern my values. And the next move that I made was really strategic. I became in-house counsel at the school district of Philadelphia. I took an enormous pay cut from what I was making in private practice. And I was never happier as a lawyer in my life. That led to a fairly equally long career in public service. I went from the school district of Philadelphia to become general counsel to another school district. And then I was general counsel to the Office of Open Records in Harrisburg, a state agency that was created to resolve people's public records disputes. So I did a lot with my law degree. I see. I remember reading in your biography that you practiced for 25 years, which I thought was interesting because you were like, I hate it being a litigator, but are you including being general counsel for state agencies in that? Okay. And I've never heard this before. What do you do as general counsel for the Philadelphia School Board? What was a typical day like? It was fascinating. It was one of the best jobs I ever had because I was like the red phone to school principals, assistant principals, guidance counselors. I have a pregnant teenager in my office. Am I legally required to tell the parents? Okay. I just had a complaint from a parent that we're having graduation in a church. Is it okay to have the graduation there? So that's an establishment clause question. Whoever thought I'd get one of those after I graduated from law school, right? So I loved being in house counsel at the school district of Philadelphia. And it was really like being in a law firm. It was a legal department and we had we had contract lawyers, we had labor and employment lawyers, we had special education lawyers. We represented the school district when it purchased buildings, when it entered into vendor agreements, food service contracts, transportation. So the school district had a very robust in house counsel and I loved being part of it. Yeah. And I never would have imagined that. But just hearing you say it, I'm listening. I'm like, yeah, that's a contract. That's a contract. That makes sense. That makes sense. So do you think there was any relation between being underpaid and having the most fun ever while practicing law? Do you think there's any kind of link there? Well, I sure wished it paid more money. That would have been nice. And the thing that really made the difference for me was having a more reasonable work life and not having not having demands on my time that were 24 seven. I actually had a partner say one one time to me, I was I was talking about something I was doing in my free time. And he looked at me and he said, free time. You don't have free time. Your time is mine. And I thought, mm hmm. No, no, that does not work for me. And that was my first start to thinking I private practice is not going to be for me if that's the attitude, if they think I'm going to work all day and then be out all night trying to get business. No, I have to have free time. Yeah, I'm shaking my head here and I'm agreeing with you because I remember seeing that exact scene in every, you know, legal movie, right? You have the partner standing over you barreling down and you're like, get it done. I want it done yesterday. And you're like, oh my gosh, my gosh. And I remember seeing that and I was like, oh, I can do that. I'm really organized. I'm on top of it. I would love that. But to your point, you had no free time. And then when you had a submission, they thought it was there. So when you're in house, it's a completely different demand than when you're working. That's right. There are aspects of living with your client that can be challenging. But the best part about it is that you really all are on the same side. When I was at the school district, we were all on the side of kids. So being on the same side makes a huge difference. Years ago, I interviewed Michael Bain who created the Penn program for mindfulness. And I was interviewing him about practicing mindfulness and how it could help in a stressful occupation like the law. And he said, I can't think of a more stressful environment than a courtroom. And I said, really, what about an operating room? And he said, well, in an operating room, you don't have somebody going around and taking out the stitches that you just put in. You're all on the same side. And that made sense to me. Litigation is really stressful and it's a win or lose proposition. And the stakes are high. And it helps when you have people that are actually with you as opposed to opposing you at every step of the way as you're trying to do your job. Yeah, absolutely. Being on the same side is really important point because litigation is all about being opposing sides. So, okay. So you mentioned that you hired an executive counselor because coaching is a new term. What was it that made you look for that? Was it really difficult for you to find an executive counselor? It was actually a career counselor. And it wasn't hard because it was somebody that I knew. Luckily, he had been in the office of career development at Temple Law School when I was there and had gone off on his own to start his own career coaching counseling firm. And I contacted him. And this is an example of how miserable I was. I wasn't the kind of person who spent a lot of money on myself. I was very frugal and thrifty. And when you get to the point where you're desperate, that's when you really figure out what your values were. And I thought, I'm going to spend money right now on figuring out what I'm doing with my career because I've been spending my wheels for years. I've been sending out applications for years and I'm not getting anywhere. I'm still in a litigation job and I hate it. So I hired him. His name was Murray L. Wood. He has since passed away. But what he did was he put me through a values assessment. And he had me identify what my top values were because that's why we do everything in life, Kyla, our motives, values and preferences. And when we're acting out of accordance or alignment with those values, that's what makes us miserable. So he helped me see what was important. And he helped me make that decision to move to the School District of Philadelphia because taking a pay cut wasn't exactly something that you expect to do when you're on the career ladder. You think you're going to be going this way all the time. And one of the things that I learned then and that I helped my coaching clients with now is sometimes you need to take a lateral step, an interim step, maybe even a step backwards, because now you've figured out what you want to do and you're going to have to take a little bit of a reprieve from charging forward. And sometimes people really need permission for that. To leave the law, to take a pay cut, to do something that they love, they just feel so unsupported in that endeavor. So misunderstood. And I understand because I had plenty of naysayers when people heard that I was going to leave the field of law to be a coach. Well, first of all, what is that? Soccer? Rowing? Right. I'm short so they never guessed basketball. No one knew what I was doing. And so the idea that I was going to leave such a well-established profession for something nobody had ever even heard of seemed pretty crazy. Yeah. But I knew how much it had helped me. I'm the walking advertisement for what I do. So I knew if someone as thrifty and frugal and maybe even cheap as me was willing to shell out hard earned money to make a difference in her life and her profession, then I knew other people would as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really good point because I'm very frugal. I'm extremely frugal. I only started podcasting and doing a little bit of YouTube because my husband brought all this equipment and he was going to do it. And it sat there for like three months and I was like, if you don't touch it, I'm going to do it. And I picked it up. And I was like, well, at least we're using it now. So I'm so glad to hear that origin story. I was kind of wondering how you got started podcasting. And do you mind telling me why you went to law school? I don't mind not at all. So I went to law school because I always loved to advocate, but I didn't know was advocating. I just was cheering for the underdog. You know, I always was like, if you're being picked on, I'm coming out of the side and I'm like, leave them alone or hey, what's your problem? I just love to do that. And I am a middle child between two brothers. So I was always the bossy one. And that was really my training grounds for being the advocate, right? Like you're picking on the little brother. I'm telling you to stop. You're picking on the big one. I never had middle child syndrome because I was the girl, right? And so I was just like, well, I'm a special butterfly because I'm the only girl. So I never had a problem with speaking out. And I always was, you know, supporting whoever was in trouble. I was right there. Like, let me take care of it. I was curious because so many people who describe going to law school use phrases like, I ended up in law school, you know, I wound up there like, whoops. Yeah, no, it was very intentional for me. I remember I got out of undergrad and I wanted to work because at the time I was just obsessed with working. I think if someone had told me I could have done like going to school to be a chef or something else, I would have because I just wanted to work. I just wanted to work, but I kept thinking about law school. And I was like, well, let me wait another year. And I kept thinking about law school. And I was like, I'll give myself five years. If I'm still thinking about it, I'll go. And I was still thinking about it. So, well, that's a great decision. You've had a lot more data than I did. Yeah, it was a very intentional decision, but that doesn't mean I didn't stumble a lot after school. And so let me take a quick break here to mention if you guys are watching, this is Kyla Denayo. I'm speaking with Dina Lefkowitz. This is the You Are a Lawyer podcast and thank you for watching. And if you're listening, we'll keep rolling with the episode. So, Dina, I mentioned your comment about being frugal or maybe even cheap because I think self-care is a luxury and I know it shouldn't be and I'm working really hard to have it not be, but I, similar to you, would be like, I don't need to spend time on myself. I don't need to spend money on myself for what? If I have food, if my family's around, I'm fine. And so, how did you finally, I don't know, reconcile or get over the fact that, you know, I got to get help. I don't care if I have to pay for it. What was that final breaking point? Desperation. Okay. Really, at that time, Kyla, it was desperation. That's what it took for me to take care of myself at the time. My body was falling apart from the stress that I was under. I was, I had pain in every area from my feet to my, to psoriasis in my scalp. I was having one stress-related illness after another. So, for me, it was a necessity to get out of the stressful occupation of civil litigation. So, spending the money on the coach was almost like going to the doctor at that point in my life. It was so necessary. But that did loosen up the purse strings for me. Once I started to see the difference that could be made in my life from spending some time and money on cultivating myself, I stopped thinking of it as self-care and started thinking of it more as self-improvement. Like I took Michael Bame's eight-week mindfulness-based stress reduction program at the University of Pennsylvania. I spent that time and money on myself because I wanted to learn how to control my emotions a little bit more. I was still practicing law, by the way, when I became a coach. So, I did both for six years. So, I was a coach, I was a lawyer by day and a coach by night as I built my practice, as I built my expertise, as I built my offerings, as I wrote and became a thought expert. I was, I was trying to straddle both worlds for quite a while. Yeah. And did you stop straddling both worlds once you were sustaining yourself with your coaching business? Well, not really. I got to a tipping point is how I saw it, where I was going to have to start turning away work if I kept my full-time job. So, even though I didn't have a full roster of coaching clients when I quit my day job and hung out my shingle, I was on a good trajectory. And I thought the only way I could really fill the practice was to quit my job and create that open space. So, that's what I did. But the first year, I didn't make what I was making as a lawyer by a long shot, by a long shot. So, let me just track here. Your litigation salary was different from your salary as general counsel. And then even the salary as a coach was different from that. So, Yeah, I have to say, you're making it sound like I was on a downhill trajectory. I know. And I'm sorry. You kept saying liberal moves. Yeah. As a business owner, it's not a salary. It's your income. So, yeah, my income took a dip when I became self-employed for a brief period of time. But now it's back up to where it was when I was practicing law. Excellent. I'm happy to say. Well, great. Very, very great. And so that's an important thing for your listeners and viewers to know that there might be a lean period as you're making a career transition or transformation. I'm in the transformation business. And I see this every day that a fruitful period often follows a fallow period. And that's the way growth happens in nature and in careers too. Yeah. And that's a really good point. And I will remember that for myself because I'm in my lean period right now, but that's okay. I'm here for you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. So you mentioned that you were working with your career coach. He asked you to identify your motives, values, and preferences. I have to ask, had you ever considered your motives, values, or preferences when you were in law school or looking for a legal job? I'm sorry to say no, I had not. Okay. I hadn't given it even a moment's consideration. What's important to me? What do I like doing? How do I enjoy spending time? Kyla, I really didn't know my values until I was in my 30s and I was already a lawyer by then. Now, if you had asked me what's important to me in life, I would have said the same thing. Most everybody says family, health, money, but when you really assess your values, you assess the order in which they're important because we can't have everything in life, but we can have everything that's important to us. So narrowing it down to what really matters is key. And I went into the law thinking money was the most important thing because I grew up with a lack of it and I experienced a lack of it. But once I started making a decent living, I realized I didn't need to be rich, wealthy. I just wanted to make a living that would support what I wanted to do in my life and the things that I wanted to have didn't have to be a lot. I didn't need fancy cars or a million dollar house or any of that. And then also what would allow you to have free time that nobody else can control? Yeah, that's right. Okay. So Dina, let's discuss your book. All right. Your own court. Great title. Thank you. Really great title. And there are a number of different chapters in the book, which are really great. The one that really jumped out at me was curate your career. And the other one hone your soft skills. So would you share a little bit about why you wrote the book and something about those chapters? Sure. Well, I wrote the book to help people that can't necessarily go to a career coach. This book is not just written for lawyers. It's written for anybody who wants to have a career do over. Of course, it was published by the American Bar Association and it is targeted to lawyers. But I've had people read it who aren't lawyers and said they got a lot out of it. So I wrote the book partly as a reaction to the pandemic. I do a lot of speaking and presenting and networking to support my coaching business. And things kind of dried up when shutdown happened. And all my speeches got canceled. And I still had things to say. So I decided to write a book. Okay. And I wanted to take a person, the reader through pretty much what would happen if they decided to invest in coaching, assessing the situation, you know, figuring out who you are, what you want, what matters to you, what occupational preferences you have and those sorts of things. The soft skills part came up based on my experience and the experience of my clients. A lot of us graduate from law school really not prepared to do client development or client management. And that point was making quite made quite strongly to me when I made a client cry once. Now you've met me. We've been talking for a little while. You can probably tell I'm pretty nice person, I hope. Very sweet. But this defensiveness came up in me when I was a young lawyer because I didn't really know how to handle myself when somebody pushed back. So we had just been assigned a judge on a case and the client called and she was also a lawyer and she had some opinions about the judge. And I was like, nope, this is what we're doing. And I took a pretty forceful tone with her and she stumbled. And then she cried. And then she hung up. And I was sitting there trying to figure out what to do next. This is the worst part of the story for me. She called me to apologize. Now, I was the one who should have apologized. I didn't listen to my client. I steamrolled right over her. I didn't show her the respect that she deserved. And then she called to apologize to me. I'm not proud of that story, Kyla, but I tell it to demonstrate that even a nice person who's trying their best to do a good job isn't necessarily prepared for the kinds of environments she'll be in when she becomes a practicing lawyer responsible for maintaining the client's faith in the process and belief in the system and all of those things that the rules of professional conduct tell us we're supposed to do. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, being a lawyer is stressful. You have another person's livelihood, reputation, all of this stuff in your hands. While you're also working to maintain your own livelihood and reputation, it's a really tough job. And so I love that you pointed out the soft skills that were important as you are a lawyer, right? For you to win in your own court, you need to realize, oh, I could have addressed that better. Oh, what else could I learn? You know what I mean? How can I approve? And by the way, I could have gotten fired for that. I mean, that client could have called my boss. She could have complained. And it could have been either a negative career moment or a derailing career moment, depending on how my firm decided to handle it. The things that derail a career are usually based in personality. So understanding yourself and learning how to get along with others will take you way farther than you could ever go without investing in at least in learning your soft skills. And people might think, oh, I'm outgoing. I'm an extrovert. I don't need soft skills. Well, those people can be just as damaging as somebody who's silent and doesn't speak up. Yeah. And I love that you're addressing that in your book because in your example, the person called you and let you know. But a lot of times when you hurt someone, you disappoint them or whatnot, they may not even tell you. Oh, that is so true. And they might vote with their feet too. They might just leave a great point. Yeah. So, Dina, is there anything else that you would like to share with the audience about being a career coach, being an author and enjoying your life right now? Yes. I would like to say it's not too late for you to have a great career. I hear people say that to me at every age. It's crazy. I've had 30-year-old say, oh, I guess it's too late to do what I really want to do. And I want to say to you, it's not too late. I became a coach in my 50s. I wrote my first book at age 60. Wow. And I'm now a published author and who knows what I might do next. Yeah. So that's what I want to say. It's not too late for you to be, do, and have everything that you want. I love that. That is a great ending to this episode. Thank you so much, Dina. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye.