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Yours would now at hand and you've done a fairly straight. But first and foremost how's things? Life's alright, could be better. How so? But, eh, better hours and stuff. I thought there was such on that whenever. But as a whole, life's better than being caged behind the fucking door, yeah? How you enjoying Glasgow? Brilliant. First time I've been here, brilliant. Just like a dirty version of Manchester City said though. Is this the first you've been out in Manchester? Yeah, as far as I've been is in a cave. Before we get into everything Dan, I'd like to go back to the start of my guess. Get a bit of information about you, where you grew up, how it all began. I grew up in Manchester. East Manchester, Clayton, Newly, from them areas. Started off in life with twin sister and two older sisters and mum and dad. Mum and dad separated when I was round about seven. Me and my twin sister and my two older sisters stayed with my dad. My mum went off with a new fella. Two, three years into their relationship, we had twins to this man. And that's where the story started. Ever at school? Yeah, I missed the last year of secondary school. I had no interest in school really. I appreciate learning in them days. More interested in motocross bikes, more than anything else. I had a brain, about the car crash when I was 15. 105 mile an hour car crash. Turns out I had a bit of a brain injury, head injury. That never got sort of discovered until 18 years later sort of thing. So, yeah, my mum's relationship with the fella, Rocky from the word go, you know what I mean? Being a seven, eight, nine year old kid, you'll really recognise it. You know what I mean? But as you get a bit older and older and older, you start seeing it and you start realising the cupboard door hasn't broken, smashed a light in or anything like that, you know what I mean? So yeah, my mum's relationship with Rocky, with her fella, but on the other half, my dad, best man you could ever wish for, brought four and six kids up, my dad, which his arse off, died 60 years old, right out of blueberry cancer. So that was a massive loss to my life, you know what I mean? Missing all them years with my dad hurts. So yeah, I grew up with my dad, with my four sisters, me, I won't class them as step-brother and sister, but brother and sister, simple as that. They lived with me, my mum and dad, with me, my mum. Then I get to, my mum leaves this guy out, think I'm around about 14, but from 14 to 18, stroke 19, he's still going around giving my mum a crack. He's threatening to take Sally and Scott to Scotland where he's from, unfortunately. He was threatening to take the two twins to Scotland and probably capable of doing it. Reckless guy. He kept on beating my mum from, like I said, another four years after they broke up. Mum used to pull the police in and say, I'll be alright once he's sobered up, someone and so on. Had a bit of a rep in the area, a bit of an hard guy. Known locally, fun enough as mad jock. Had much imagination in that one. But yeah, he was a bit of a vicious guy, you know what I mean? And I was just like an 18, 19-year-old kid getting on with life. That was it, basically. Were you violent beforehand? Or were you running out of prison before? No, didn't lead that type of life. Been in trouble with the police, car related and stuff like that. One wound in charge, got someone breaking in my car. They got a crack. They went mornin' to the police. Criminal long as their arms anyway. But got six month probation or something stupid, like no prison sentence. So never been to prison before this life sentence. No violence apart from that. Section 20 wound, I think it was, like say, serious, but not serious enough to warrant a prison sentence. But had a car crash when it was 15. The oldest sister seemed to be the only one who recognized there was a change in me. More snappy, more volatile, more standoffish, that type of thing, went back down. So, 19 question. Like I say, he's been smacking me mum around for the last four years. Police have done nothing about it. I'm getting a bit old, I think it's my responsibility to look after my mum like I've done with my sisters and so on. This 19 question. The other day, my mum's out with her, my sister's and her mate. And his package trick used to be, he'd cover up my mum's house, no answer. He'd automatically presume she's out with the daughters. They're waiting in the garden when she comes rolling home at 12 or whatever. Give her a slap, whatever. So, early on in the night, I overhear my mum talking and he's been around, giving me my mum a slap, that type of thing. And I just, aw, I just thought, I'm gonna get me my mum that night in the taxi. Simple as that. As I am doing so, my mum just gave a flippant remark and said she's even had to cheat to fucking move there. Me and my mum. I pulled the taxi over. Taxi driver was moaning. Me and my mum got out of the taxi. Mum didn't want me to go in front of him, making things worse, but she was trying to deter me. Simple as that. I want to have none of it. Me and my mum took off. The taxi took off because you got sick of waiting. Me and my mum went, I didn't think it'd be in the house. I thought I'd wreck his house, piss him off, whatever. Giving my course to have a pissed off with me rather. Me and my mum sort of attitude, you know what I mean? I'd say 18, not thinking clearly. Drink as well. Play the part, got to have. Entered his house. Have a confrontation with him. So it's going me in English, boss, did you not leave him? Stuff like that. Goes to smack me. I smack him, he falls back into a chair. Goes fucking berserk, picking him up, his hammer. And sadly, yeah, being a death with it. Fond an ambulance because he had no intent to go around in anyone. Had the intent of standing up for himself. He was a confrontation there. But that was the last thing I'd be mind. Like I say, clouded with drink as well. 18-year-old. And not putting any spin on it or any blame on it. But facts are facts. I did have some kind of brain injury, so that did cloud on me brain operated, so I think, you know what I mean? So that would have affected me. Even like medication. I had some medication, I was on for a damaged wound. Shouldn't have drank with why she should have been on him. So things like that. I don't know, I'm not putting a spin on her blame. Had me from day one. I did kill the guy and done. End of, you know what I mean? So please say to me, mother, do you think it's your son who's killed George? My mum's a staunch woman, my mum. You know, simple as that, right? He's on the, on your side, my mum would put you up all day, James. Right? So please have just said to me, mum, do you think it's your son who's killed George? And my mum has said, no, Scott's only eight years old. Or seven years old. Left me right out of the equation. I get nicked three days later or something. They went, me must have presumed, right? She knew all about it, blah, blah, blah. Nick me mum with manslaughter. I didn't even enter the fucking house. I know people who've stabbed someone to death and got done for manslaughter. How can my mum get done with that? So my mum gets done with manslaughter and perverting the cause of justice or something like that. Mum's in jail. Barely my, she got two twins of seven years. Eight years old the day I got arrested. There was. So she's been taken away from them. Then they get the most shittiest legal team you could imagine. Burton and Copeland solicitors. My macca. Somebody right down the river gets me a QC. Enricus. Enric, Richard Enricus or whatever you called. Lord. Don't know where the fucking Lord. But I met him once and he said, open and shut manslaughter case. Blah, blah, blah. Simple as that. He'd be home in about six, seven. You're okay. Go on court for trial. You get me to one side so be struck a deal with the ACPS. You plead guilty to murder, your mum can go home. I'm happy with it. But I also consider myself as not being in cell mind of making that judgement as well. Considering the injury what I started to realise they had a few years later. And what I mean by that is I told the court when you nick for someone serious, you get interviewed, court appointed psychiatrist. I told him of a serious car crash and all he put in a report was Mr South was home with a serious car crash, brain damage, question mark. But it's too late in the day to chase anything up because the case goes in front of the crown in two weeks time. Now, when a Dr Peter Pratt examined me 18 years later for a pro report, he was gobsmacked that I've been in so long due to the circumstances and stuff like that. And he said that interviewing me for like say four hours like he was getting paid for. He said can he interview you all week sort of thing and he did and to load a test and so on and so on. And his basically findings was I would have been suffering from brain damage from at that area at that time and it would have around about three years to heal. And in that time it would have been volatile etc etc. I wouldn't have been in sound mind. I genuinely thinking probably the law and I spoke into some people in the law and they've all said that would have been diminished responsibilities if that would have been known. I could have walked free for like two years for that. So pleaded Gille, this is where I think the judge was wrong, judge pressed. He was shocked. He was absolutely shocked that one minute I'm going not Gilly all the way from day one going not Gilly for murder simple as that. The moment I've got a court trial, I've changed it. He was gobsmacked. What he should have done is stop proceedings, got everyone downstairs and said yeah what the fuck's going on? What are you promising? You know he's changed from this to that. What he did do is he wrote in a statement saying which is there saying accept there was no intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. He said he's had it for eight years. That eight years made nothing. Ended up doing 29 years. I don't think there's many people who've done 29 years who've gone out and planned, plotted, schemed to do a murder where the judges wrote that and they've done fucking 10, 15 years less than me. That blows my mind and it does make me better but I won't let the bitterness get in the way because like I say, that gentleman in you today you've had an easy ride in your life. You've turned a corner and that's what I'm into. I mean nothing's going to defeat me simple as that. See when you came out of that house did you know he was dead? Yeah. Straight away? Yeah. And what's going through your mind then? Once you know you've killed someone? Yeah. Scared. You know? Thinking fucking off, just kill someone. That's a start. Getting caught ruining your own life selfishly. It sounds you've just took someone but you do start thinking about yourself. You do. Automatically. It is. Yeah, not good. Knowing your life is going to be getting switched off for a very long time at any moment. And it did. You know what I mean? In that time, like I say, I went to jail as a kid, as a teenager got dumped into the adult system and which was one of the best things could have ever happened to me in the sense. Landed at Foursawton as a kid. He threw me on the worst wing. Got in Beirut. Met some of the best people in my life there. You know what I mean? So that set me in good stead and I only said it recently to someone. They didn't take me under the wing. They had a lot of respect for me as a young age. And they did look after me without realising it. You know what I mean? These was like, you know, London lads and Ya Ya Ray lads and stuff like that. Like I say, met one Brendan Dowd. Beautiful Irish guy. Beautiful man. You know what I mean? So I've seen a lot of lifeers who are in for domestic crimes, domestic murders. Never go to a dispersal. Cat bees, cat seas and these type of thing. I had decades in the dispersal system getting bounced around the dispersal system even though I had a tiny tariff. I was never going to get out on my tariff because it was still a cat-a-ing shit where you couldn't get pro, that kind of scenario. You know what I mean? What was it like for you when you've done a murder? You've got a leave sentence. You're late in prison when a door gets shut for the first night? It's hard to explain it because it becomes the norm. Right? I've had people say to me, how the fuck did you get through it for years? I can't even explain it myself. And I said to me, mate, day old one day, he said, how did you get through it? And I said, the belief that's something nicer come out at the end of it. Still not come yet. Well, I'm waiting. But that's the belief what got me through it. So I'd say whatever shit came my way, I have had the hell of a lot of shit. Segregation unit, so it wasn't the best-behaved prisoner, but it wasn't the worst. But you've also got to bear in mind as well, I'm in a fucking nut house full of craziness. No control of the system. Dispersal systems. Early 90s. Run by the inmates, I think, you know, ain't done what you wanted. But it was a good life as in the best she was going to get. A mad life. But I'd rather do an army sentence in the dispersal rather than going down to these poxy-cat cities any day of the week full of mugs. Yeah, yeah, man, iris. Iris meaning you can share the fucking cell with someone because they bullied them or some bullshit. Iris where you're getting fucking carried out from your cell every 28 days to another cell or move them all up from jail to jail. But if I could have done my sentence in dispersal all the way through, would have done there all the time because of the quality of the people you was around, even though you are around some fucking monsters and some fucking proper shit kickers, you are around some of the best of the lots I've ever met. And that's the easiest way I can describe it. So seeing you get an eight-year tariff in your mind, how big a sentence do you think you would have done? I thought I'd do about 12. I thought I'd do about 12, mate. Yeah. So how do you get an eight-year tariff and then spend 30 years in prison? Were you doing damage inside? Yeah, here's an example. I was in one jail waiting to go to a cap day. Some little shit kicking in, mate. It's going to get going in front of the judicator in two days' time, like the outside judge and get extra days. He's gone in there saying I'm going to escape. All right? Don't need to escape. I'm in a fucking poxy jail going to a cap day in a few weeks. I'm hoping to go to a cap day. He's acted on it. They've moved him out of the jail so he don't go in front of the outside the judicator. So in four days' time, he's out, he's gone home. They've moved me to full-sorting all over again. Got there. Person, security governor. I said, do you remember me from years back? He was a security governor now. He said, I can't believe what the police have said and the other jail have said. I don't have you out of here in no time. Spend another six years there. Four years, five years there. All this shit like that. Then you can't get parole. Then you're going on a parole here and try to defend yourself. What? No one. You know what I mean? I've been in stripes a few times in full-sorting and places like that when I was a young lad. Yeah, nearly had that out of there. Me and someone who was interviewed, we was thinking of it. We would have been on our way home, you know what I mean? Then they'd sign me up with someone over an IRA file escape attempt. But I mean, that's what I'm doing. I'm back down on the block for a fucking year or something now for that. That's doing me wish I was part of it. I mean, we'd have been home. But yeah, notes in the box and little shit things like that. And when you're going for parole, nitpicking, nitpicking over bollocks. He won't go to work. So what? Try to be a wing cleaner and go to the gym every day. You know what I'm saying? He won't work. Or he's just told a screw to fuck off. He's having a bad day. Or he can't let him out. That kind of shit, you know what I mean? And here's the thing, right? I went on a parole hearing for a son. A psychiatrist for the parole board, Asia King, she was in a wheelchair. She was a cracking woman. So fair. First time I met her. A judge and the parole board guy. They armoured the parole board at the prison service, made him look so stupid. A psychologist. He called out lying. He said, I've asked you sweaty questions. Are you going to lie? You know what I mean? Told you straight. Told me lie for office. He was just sat in the fence. Fucking with me life. And then nitpicking. I told her to fuck off one morning. Because she's left the door wide open. Some bullshit lies. She's, give me a right, right. You shouldn't be going home. Because the back's left even two minutes. Wait to fuck up. And the parole board hammered the system. Amid it. I'm going home. I'm going home. I'm going to be the first inmate to go on from a disperse or there's a life off. Got to me in the view, you know. Prisons said, oh you've got to stop the interview with the parole area now. Because we've been on it nine hours or something. So the judge said to me, don't worry. We're going to come back in six weeks time. Everyone's going to be the same. All we're going to do is interview you. Your interview. Your evidence comes up to scratch, which I think it will. I think you'll be having a different December. Come sick me parole area in six weeks later. Brand new parole area. Everything for them lies. What the prison service said about me. They've just brushed them up and give evidence in a better way. So I got knocked back again. So I wrote to the judge. The same judge who was on the parole area in six weeks earlier. And I basically said to him, if I don't fucking get out of my next parole area. I'm going to commit any fucking type of crime. I'm going to go to court. I'm going to say this is what I've done it. I'm going to have loads of convicted murderers who've been out. We've done atrocities. Sometimes worse than me. We've done 10 years less than me. They're all going to say, can't you blame him snapping? Don't I go through that role? You knew I was going home that last time. Some span I got put in the work somewhere. Everyone was shocked. Even the screws coming off my parole area. They said, you've got this. You can have the board what you had smashed it. I didn't mean that. I didn't even praise my scene. Has anyone ever put a page on the back? I said, what? He said, not being in shoes lines. I said, nah. He said, I think they're remarkable. Well, you've got through this, that and the other. Next minute, cats in prison. Moved to a DC cat then. Buckley all, which was a good thing. Because as soon as I went on. So all my parole areas up until going to a cat's say was seven hours, nine hours. Wrote that letter to the judge saying I'm pissed off with your underhanded what everything's been done. I'm going to expose him. I'm not going to say no shit anymore. Because I'm saying listen, I've done 28 fucking years for folks sake. Eight years out of. I know people have done a 15 year sentence for an armed robber as an adult. Get out, do two contract killings and do 10 years less than me. And don't start getting me fucking started on political. You know, IRA goes and blows an old teller put over here. Got nothing against the IRA whatsoever. Met some of the beautifulest men in my life who are the IRA. Point of making is this. Fuck about politics. Someone's gone out and killed five people in a bombing campaign in this country four years before before me. He says 30 years and I said fucking over double. Where's the injustice in that? Where's the old disproportionate that is? And that's what eats away at me. How hard does that when you see people who've done worse than you doing 10 years less than your 15 years less? I'm glad they've gone out. I don't mean these pedophiles and shit like that. Fuck them, they can rot, they can rot. And all your fucking glasses, they were just selling people out just to get fucking lower sentences. But the people I've met are like your armed robbers and your drug importers and stuff like that. Even killers. Some of the people are the best, nicest people I've ever met. They've just been caught up in a circumstance like me. You know, I don't class myself as a bad cunt. You know, I may be someone now who can justify. I had a father in my name one day in my pocket and I chased after a bloke who had just lost two grand, dropped it and I chased after him and chased after him like fuck to give it him back. I had the best day of my life in that good karma. I started learning that as an adult. Because you've got to remember, I lost all my adult life being in prison. All my adult life has been spent in prison. Being told what to do, when to do it, sort of shit. Or rebelling against it and then just being spent years down with segregation units and stuff like that. No bed and all that carry on, you know what I mean? So, yeah, some of the best people I have met with quality people, you know what I mean? You've took a wrong turn. What was it like your first year in Christmas doing a life? Horrible. Horrible, you know what I mean? I had a girlfriend recently when I went to prison. That broke up, that type of shit. Which was expected anyway, obviously. But, you know, everything's brand new that first year. You know, you're going for my nice house with a fucking toilet with a fucking, a cell with a pot. Slot note back then. Slapping out in them days, you know what I mean? No radio, no electrics and stuff like that. So, bare basics in them days. So, a lot of people never experienced them in prisons, you know what I mean? I'm glad they did. So, yeah, Christmas just comes and goes, you know what I mean? But, yeah, never thought I would just spend that many Christmas in jail, though, way. But, never lost sight of getting out, but I started getting into the attitude where, fuck you, if I don't get out, I'll be alright. Nasty cunts or orges. But, that one had got me nowhere, because you can't win the system. No, you can't beat the system. You can't beat the system, you know what I mean? And I've seen so many good people die in the system. You know, like I was watching Summit Live a week and all I'd say is in my eyes, you know what I mean? We couldn't even make Charlie Sosa. I had some good times with Charlie, man. And he got a big one, got another big one. I don't know what happened, but he called it a day. I believe he killed himself. So, yeah, I've met some really good, beautiful people who, yeah, breaks me out. Breaks me out. Do you see a lot of suicide then? I've seen a fair few, yeah. What that is, especially? Like I say, the one that always sticks in my mind is, I'd say I was a young lad, and kind of like Desi Cunningham, beautiful man. You know what I mean? If you went out with him, you'd get all the birds. Stop, lad, staunches, you staunch, come from a staunch family. All his brothers are staunched. Don't know his brothers, but there's a, he used to cook for me. He used to make me some lovely meals. Yeah, I think he was doing an eight scene or something. He was like 18 months left, and he killed himself. So, don't know the circumstances part, right? But yeah, that sticks in my mind that because I always seen if anyone like that can do it, you'd have him in your corner. All day long, you know what I mean? One staunch guy. So if someone like him can do it, someone who I thought was so strong you could just do the sentence. Like I say, at the end of his sentence as well. So if anyone can do it, like him, we're all vulnerable in that sense. How many deaf NGOs you've been in, Dan? Oh, I bounced around about 35 or something, bounced around everywhere, so I think for years, you know, blocks of block and that type of stuff. But it just becomes the norm, doesn't it? What's the most pressing you've been in? Forrest Bank. Forrest Bank. Who's that? Salford, Manchester. What the shit's all? Private. Corrupted his cunts I've ever met in my life. So if you're swearing, by wearing there where I was a pretty cold, poor, a madhouse. Corrupted as they come, bringing drugs in, phones in, screws. Now if you're into that, sweet, but don't be writing fucking reports saying keep me in prison because I'm up to no good when you're fucking doing it yourself and using that uniform to justify it. Don't be doing that. And yeah, listen, I'm seeing 22-year-old screws who haven't got a clue who was working in Sainsbury's six months earlier doing a report on my life and not giving a fuck. One day, there was a lad who was cutting his neck in his cell, about 19-year-old, cutting his neck right over to a screw, said, yeah, go and get him out, she went. Fuck him and busy. I said, open the door, go and speak to him. No, because everyone will want that then. So there's no compassion for you. But obviously, there's some good offices in there. Obviously, I'm not going to tie everyone with the same brush if I'm not stupid. But as a prison, as a whole, what was your shit all? How did you go on with the screws? In there. In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? Well... 10 years I'd say. 10 years of being... I don't want to say loose cannon, but I also wouldn't say bad enough to justify spending years and years in jail. I don't mind Mr. Meen as 20 in prison. I'm all up together. You're waving more in six-week in jail, out there, now if there's schar� you don't exist. Getting a knock back for parole because you saw some fucking bell and officer to fuck off. Don't justify keeping me in for another two years. for two years, not in my eyes anyway, but yeah, mud one. Behind the 80s, 90s, like the Scrooge World, we used to kickfuck at you in the 60s, 70s, did you ever feel that, did you ever get any beats from them? Yeah, all the blocks, like I say, you're also on blocks, along that and block, all in places, you know, strange ways they didn't fuck about with your forest bank, they don't fuck about with you, they wrap you up, I've seen a bunch of people in that block opening someone's legs and booting them in the bollocks while he's wrapped up, shit houses, you know what I mean, big gym eds, big gym screws all muffed it up, firm-handed going in over some eight-stone weakling and beating fuck out of him, shit houses, so I don't like that, no. What's the best, pros in your brand? So, let's say Buckley Hall as a prison as a whole, best dispersal opinion, what I said, full sign, they all have the times, they all have the times, you know what I mean, long line, long line would have been the best dispersal in the 90s, early 90s, freedom done what you wanted, got paid in silver done what you wanted, really what you wanted, it wasn't a matter of control jail, it was, long term it's don't want headaches, don't want the wings getting spun, all the usual whatever they're doing, getting found, do you want an easy life, you know what I mean, these ain't dickheads, so as a jail where you could just have a decent life, chill out, not have any aggravation with the screws, stayed away from you, we stayed away from them, I'd say long line in them days, yeah, but as a prison to get like, just get your head down, like I say, I can't class long line as the best prison to, as a whole, to get out from, but for me I'd say Buckley Hall. What's the longest you've spent in a block? About 18 months in one go, a few times in them stages, yeah, Gareth Block was in there for about a year, shit Gareth was in there for about a year, no daylight, are you just, are you out, you get full sudden, when he used to get thrown down at his strongbox, he had like no wintery shit like that, throw you in there for fuck it all sorts, you know what I mean, a body belt in the early days as well, which was outlawed, you know, give you a beating, that was the old block and the new block, yeah, all that one meter rule, and I like bullshit seeing it's a door open, if you come within one meter, it gives you the right to jump all over you, I don't know when at one week, I don't walk around with a fucking ruler, you know what I mean, I only know sooner meters now because of COVID, you know what I mean, but, but yeah, you know what I mean, I'll tell you once, right, it was, it was Christmas 91 and I mean full sunblock, black and blue from the screws, it was a black lad from Geoffrey of Keith Knowles, we had loads of ease, we had loads of ease and we gave everyone a knee on one condition, smash fuck out yourself, to sink the toilet a lot and we did, we fucking demolished that block, you know what I mean, the strongbox got demolished and they come in the next day, all the mufti gear, all the riot screws were all mops, not shields, I said he changed his tactics, he came in and levied fuck out him, you know, but that was a good sign that, that was a good sign, Dave Armani, he's just coming with his name, can't believe I've come across, he was there I think, yeah, we just wrecked the block, but I was eight, I wasn't sweaty, 21, all right, got levied, I always remember being in a body belt, black and blue, the governor came in with all his posh fucking mates from the low clouds in the state with the posh wives, New Year's Eve, I didn't even know it was New Year's Eve, I remember going in that body belt before Christmas day, that's all I remember, the next minute with New Year's Eve, the bells in York was ringing, I had a little cry to myself, I thought all my family would be thinking, I'd had an N8, but at least it'd be all right, I'm tucked up like this, like a fucking chicken, black and blue, and I had people looking through my spiral, I always remember the governor said yes, yes, yes or something, is this how you look after Peter Farz and he went yeah, I was f**king fuming, lay there, black and blue, full of my own s**t in peace, I remember clearly that day, yeah, and I've been there for f**king, I've been there for days and days and days, but you get through it because it just becomes the norm, and I'm not big hardcore, if I f**k nothing, I've met some right, brutal, hard motherf**kers in jail, and whether you're them or me, you just learn to deal with it, suppose, you know what I mean, didn't want to be one of them people who hanged himself, killed himself, a way to get out the other side, you know what I mean, because I didn't want to give him the satisfaction because I knew some of them would, some people out here would, you know what I mean, but definitely some people out there in jail would have, so I didn't want to do that, and I had always that belief, something better would come out of the corner, every time I went for a prog, I'm not back, not back, not back, for the most bullshit, you know what I mean, so that becomes the tiresome, then you start losing hope, and things like that, then you just, I don't know, human being, brain, powerful thing, I suppose, my brain just sort of never died completely sort of thinking, you know what I mean, I like to say I've always met people in a fucking worse situation than me, like I say, when I went back to Folsom the last time, met two lads who was the Outlaws who got Nick for the Elze Angel killing on the motorway about 15 years ago, Simon and Trot, Trot are dead now, best is peace, and I say what one of the nicest men you have met in your life, beautiful men, Simon's still here, thank God, and right to Simon, beautiful man, landed on Seawing, was it Seawing in Folsom, and they come at me and said, them scoops have just been talking about me, I said, why is that, was you shagging a bird in there in the night, why are they, one's married to the fucking fuming, I just laughed off, and they made me on meal every day, then Salford kid Ricky Smith come round, he's like, sort of like, he brought me a ball of nailed maize round, but the Outlaw brothers, they brought me a meal every day, looked right after me then, looked right after me, and Trot died cancer, so yeah, people are always worse than me, you know what I mean? I've had so many people on the show where they talk about being friends with serial killers, mass murderers, fucking mad bastards, because when you're in there, you forget actually what crime they've done and I've hung around with people for some years, I haven't got a clue what they're in for, just taking through the eye, but yeah, I've sat there, one was called Roy All, he had some from Scotland, the butler, yeah, remember, you know, Roy Fanteidi calling from Scotland, the butler, you have to research him, Roy All I think he's called, but he'd dress up as Arabs and he was loading the manor, as the manor in the pot or whatever you call him, knocking him off, killing him, proper dangerous fucker, but it's a look at him, he's not a little old man, you know what I mean? So yeah, you've come across the worst of the worst, you come across some ban pox and a lot of them should be mental hospital, not a lot of them, but a lot, some should, and they are just a dumping ground, they are. Who's the man this bastard you've been on with? No way would I say it's Charlie Bronson, no way, lovely guy, Charlie, done me a pain in years ago, I dumped it near the bins, I said someone must have robbed it, they were a fucking killer, they won it, you know what I mean? Well, I took it on the visit to give me my mammy, mammy, I ain't fucking going on with that, you know, should have kept it. A few grand now. Yeah, but he was funny him, first day I met him, I say met him the first time in nine, nine, nine full-sorting, something that ended me mate's bed, I didn't know who he was, I said, yeah, fucking butch up, mate, you know what I mean? But me and him, ate it off, he'd come in my cell every morning, can cook breakfast, couldn't fucking, I'm not a minding person, you know what I mean? And yeah, started sleeping on the bed, on the floor, like Callum, because the first year in jail anyway, had no bed anyway, never on a bed, taking it off, giving you back up fucking eight o'clock at night, if you got, then you've got a re-adaptive sleeping on the floor all day, so I said keep it, you know what I mean? So he did, that was my second night in that, he took my bed off, man, first night in, I had a bed, next morning, he opened the door, I said, take your bed out, I went, you what? Some scarf, screw car, Peters, if you're alive, I hope you're fucking in pain, horrible man, he took my bed off, man, and that night I thought it was gonna come round and give me back, he didn't, I thought I'm not asking for it, so I went, you know, bed for a long time, on and off, on and off, so I shit, then I met Alan, Alan Lord, I mean Alan just ripped my bed frame out of myself, and he smuggled a sleeping bag from the courts, high security prison, my ass, my boy fucking brought a sleeping bag back, smuggled that in, and a camera, he was fucking taking photos of everything, all the security, he was doing what we wanted, so I was sleeping bagging, I just went, fuck, he's with the bed, and when I'm down on the block, they'd say, take his bed off him, the screw, I say, but he hadn't got a bed, the governor would presume him, hadn't got a bed frame, but I've got a mattress, and I didn't have no fucking demon jacket as a pillar or something, you know what I mean, but yeah, just a carrot, be good, you can't have your bed and all that lot, and I think the prison service ain't gonna swallow this shit any longer, years ago he had no tellies, and now they've got a teller with shit channels, these are used to fucking everything on the button, on phone, anything they want, so that TV ain't a carrot anymore, it's fuck all, take your telly off you, you can have it, fucking ITV too and all that, fucking reality shit, and that fat Gemma Cummins and people like that, don't watch shit like that, you know what I mean, so that ain't an incentive anymore, that teller, the systems are just getting worse and worse, rehabilitation is just another made up word, like he said on Shawshank Redemption, now it's the rehabilitation whatsoever, as soon as you get out of prison, they give you 47 fucking quid, I was gone up and I got 62 quid, and said hey, off you go, then you don't get no benefits or whatever for fucking six week or whatever, how the fuck someones gonna survive, I was lucky I had a few decent people in my life, but what happens to people who ain't got nothing, they're resorting to crime straight away, surely all these contracts, who these prison services get, they're earning fortunes, I know in Buckley, all the thing they made to my 18 grand a week, building pallets, putting pallets together, he was getting 18 grand, not fucking inmates, they're getting a tonne of a week each, give them 100 quid a week, gotta work for it, gotta fucking, but they save 80 quid a week, Johnny gets out after four years with that much, Simon gets out after 10 years with that much, they're gonna value that money, they're gonna respect it, not gonna go and swander it like they've just robbed it, because they've worked their ass off for four years, five years, they're gonna deposit it on a gaff, driving license and so on and so on, that's how you can change crime, not letting someone out after fucking 10 years or 30 years with 46 quid in his hand, things start giving him, sparse walla, and he vaps on the system, stay away from crime, drugs and violence, oh my god, hypocrites, every fucking house they've offered me, he comes with all three, one house of probation service give me, but me, police have come round, looked over my shoulder and went wow, got your gaff looking smart, who's got your this, I said probation, you meant to realise where you're living, I said no, crime and drug hotspot for the last 13 years, HMO six flats turned into a big old house turned into six flats, crime, rids and drug dens in the biggest way, so if the probationer fucking deeming that fit for you, where are we going wrong? How's big Alan Lorce, I've had Alan on, I show you, like a big gentleman, obviously I know he'd done a murder when he was a young kid, but I can only judge people for what I see him now, I say he was a big gentleman, I know he was ruthless in prison though, because he'd done the strange way right, he was a big fucking unit, like how was he in prison? most nicest guy you've ever met, I say that very easy, he wasn't an anvil in jail though, he was an anvil if you fucks him over and the screws was coming on him, but I've never seen him having an argument with him mate, maybe a slight disagreement, but I've never seen any violence of Alan ever, and he'd done a 30 straights, no far off either, I think he did, never seen Alan be violent, seen him punch a door once and put a right fucking dent in it as well, and that was a steal though, never seen Alan be violent, never seen him be threatening to screw with anyone like that, or anything mate, Alan is, British way, so wrong to keep that man in that length of time, you know what I mean, I like to say he was like me, a kid 18, 19 year old, all right, totally different types of crime, man was you know a violent crime from the word of murder, it was you know a robber and it went wrong type of thing, but I'm so glad he's still the person he is, I'm so glad of that because yeah he's a strong man, he's gone through hell of a lot, I don't know half the stuff that he's gone through, I'll be only himself knows that, but for him to still get out and have that bounce in his step and the desire, I say he set his own gym up, I think he had an issue with that, I think he got a recall at some stage and he lost things like that, another system kicking you in the balls, ripping everything that's decent out of your life, but yeah, on on the note as Alan, beautiful man, beautiful and I'm glad I hope he gets everywhere he gets in life, hope he's got a cracking moment in his life, hope he's got all that, yeah. Were you ever involved in any of the rights, pleasant rights? Been in a few, in a few but never been nicked for him and stuff like that, I'd say was in one in a full song. What's that adrenaline like when there's no one going to kick off? Is that you're playing the only piece of fucking where you feel as if you've got one under the system, you know you're going to get fucked for that, but does that give you a sense of freedom where you've took over the fucking prison hall or whatever that has you've done? Yeah, like you say you know what I mean, she is like a pack of wolves and would be a pack of wolves and that was the best thing about being in them dispersals. In them days everyone was staunch, everyone stood by each other, fought with us and were coming for your sort of attitude. It ain't like that anymore, now it's run by all the Muslims and all that shit. Ain't good, you know what I mean, the the makeup of the prison service now is so different, the dispersal systems, so what they once was. Now, you know what I say, love terrorism and all that shit and turning it a terrorist, should they say go get them all on one fucking wing, I think, so they can't, because you see in this, I was down the block, I bit his right piece of shit, slagging the Muslims off left right and centre. The moment we got put on the wing, a week, he was walking around with all the fucking gams on, right, shit's else, all they did it for was, because it feels safe, because they do back themselves up, they do look after themselves, that's what we've missed, that's what we've lost. Used to be like that. The staunchest people I've seen in prison was the colonies in the Scoutsers, by far. Yeah, I'd say that, yeah, definitely by far. Scoutsers are mad bastards, aren't they? They kind of live a city within their own city, kind of hanging out over there. Right, so Manchester, I like Glasgow Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, London, all tough bastards. I've come from, I've come, I've met top lads from all of them cities, you know what I mean? And I've met some top lads from like little farming villages who've- Big farmers don't give a fuck, man. Yeah. Six feet farm, he's drawn. These people who think, all right, farmers from some side must be a Bill and then he's smashing millions or whatever, ain't that daft? But, yeah, fucking hell, yeah. Scoutsers, I love the Scoutsers always say this, like, I don't know, man, it's just something about them, they're just- The staunch. In this day and age, like, everybody's weak, like, the men are weak, becoming weak, they're almost little snitches, they're all fucking, feeling sorry for themselves, like, the Scoutsers are just different breeds, Scoutsers suck me out with me mate, Nick, and me mate, Sunday, and I'll report, all right, goodnight, home on me, you know, meet somebody to fancy restaurants, put fucking money on the bar, listen, we had a night and a half, staunch people, and when I got me pro, when I got me pro, the morning was going on, I waited for about 40 minutes, because there's a Scoutser called Peter Clark, he's got an older one called Steve, both blinding people, top of the tree, top genuine men, and Peter was on the phone, and I waited and waited for him to get off his phone, because I wanted to say to that, so you know what I mean, that was the quality and our respect to that man, Peter. I remember when I did get room release, the life of officer coming dead happy, got news, got news, I said, just read the fucking answer, just want the answer, yeah or no, and she went, yeah, and she was dead happy, she went, all right, you like, over the moon, and my only response was, 20 years, over date, over due, that was my only attitude, told nobody on the wing, until I told my mum, yeah, told my mum, and that was a long over due, for my mum that, you know what I mean, because she feels to blame, she never said that, and I'd never say that neither, and I'd never even think of it, but as a mum, she would have thought, if I had never met him, blah, blah, blah, so she probably felt bad, so that was the first person that told my mum, so she was made up, but like I say, four short months after getting out, my mum dies, so that was a killer blow, you know what I mean, and I wish my life would have been better getting out, as in, more things put in place for me, rather than being off his shitholes, rather than my mum seeing me living a shithole, rather than somewhere like Darren's on his feet, now, blah, blah, blah, so she had a few concerns over me, probably, she wouldn't let on, my mum died unexpectedly, the same day, the royal king, Charles's son got married, four years ago or something like that, but that turned into a strange day, the day my mum died, because my mum's called Dan, sat in St Ann Square in town, Manchester, I'm upset, Klein sat there on a bench, five women, total strangers to each other have come over to me, asking if it was alright, and the first girl who was there, said to the others, don't need yous, he's got me, got talking to her, I said I've only spent three months, four months with my mum, and I told her why, and at that moment, I didn't care if she just walked off thinking fucking on, killed someone, got off, she said to her, I did 15 years, I said, what, good looking girl as well, Demi Moore, dressed smart as hell, and she said yes, she had a fight with a bloke, got stabbed once, done 15 years, which I think was wrong anyway, because I know plenty of people stabbing someone eight times, 27 times, and doing sexes, you know what I mean, made an example with her, me and her got close, only at the middle life, a short space of time, she died in a car crash, rest of soul, you know what I mean, July 19, 2019, and I got recalled the next day, got a three month sentence, I'm in Manchester City, so I know, and all I want to do is go and get a photograph of Zara, go and light some flowers, that's all I want to do, and I've got a poxy little blade, and when I say a blade, that big, that's really fucking folded open, and I've got to walk in the shop to get a photograph, and I thought I'd get it after my breakfast, don't want to carry a photograph around, and the police have got the drug, grabbed some kid, he's dropped some spice and some weed or whatever on the floor, didn't make me for it, because I got in the way, that got dismissed, ended up getting three month for a poxy blade, the judging court said, don't want to send me to the prison, serves more purpose, blah blah blah, does more damage, got three month thinking I was out in six weeks, it's really fucking three month in jail, so you're always going back with step, and that's just not because of that charge, that's because of a charge what I've got done 30 odd fucking years ago when I was a child, and I'm always going to pay for that, and that's that's the stinking block, you know, I get done for something now, I don't just get done for that, they got all recalling because he done something in 1980s, I don't think that life license should stand, I don't, I think you should have a period of say five years or something, then no matter what you get nicked with from then on, you only go back to prison if it warrants a prison sentence, not because you got probation officer picking the phone up saying recalling because she's seeing your parts up in the car with someone or someone who's up to no good, doesn't mean I am or you're missing an appointment, I've been threatened with recall a few times, missing an appointment, it's not deemed necessary to recall you that this time, what, because I'm missing an appointment, you're fucking pedophiles messing with kids going, don't even get probation for folks saying you want me or that's a prison, because I'm missing an appointment, how can I progress in my life, having that hand you know, feels like you're living your life on eggshells, and that's not the way forward. How many times did your appeal get rejected for release? About 12 times, most of the time I couldn't go for parole because yeah how many times did your parole get rejected? About 10 times, about 10 times yeah, and how is that every two years? Every two years, but here's the thing, this is why I ended up doing some many years, so I'll say for instance, when I'm the first in November now and I get a two-year knockback, by right my parole hearing should be first of November in two years time, that's when the process starts, so it takes nine months then, so you've waited two years, then it takes another nine months for the reports to get written, then a date's got to be set for the parole hearing and someone won't be able to be available, so I would get put back another three months, then another three months, I waited once, 22 months for an answer, a parole answer, which was a KB, a knockback and the knockback started, from the moment I got the knockback, I've been waiting two years for the knockback, so really it's four years. So see when you get 10 rejections for your parole, does you ever think you're getting out? No, as many times when I thought I'm not gonna get out of here, you know what I mean? Was there any cases similar to you, who was maybe doing a 30 or a 40 stretch for something? Look, Charlie Bronson for instance, 50 odd stretch he's done for a robbery and I know he's caused fucking havoc and he's took people hostage and he has been a fucking nuisance, but I believe the man should be let go now, give a guy a chance, he could be out for a day and then straight back in, he could be a disproportionate system is that you can let an IR rate service that would just come and kill five people and probably kill many more, maybe, I don't know, yeah I knew it and keep someone in who's never killed anyone, 40 years, yeah someone out after 13 years for killing, you tried to kill our Prime Minister for fuck's sake, where's the justice in that? It's so one sided and the government say we don't deal with terrorists, why the fuckers, you know what I mean? Senior, I didn't know the jib I think, fuck it, the jib I think, what's the point in doing a few times, shit and then take your own life or whatever, obviously when your mum's still alive she's probably kept your life at points, but was it at a time when you thought what's the point anymore? Yeah a few times where like I said you're in pure despair because listen you've been down them segregation units with absolutely nothing is designed to destroy your soul, I've seen people who've never been covered from it, I've seen some people who were really staunch and out and like an empty cell in the dead anymore, the shell just empty anymore so it has done some brutal damage to him and it does and it doesn't happen just to the weak, you know what I mean? Like I said, mentioned someone there who was a staunch and had proper quality man, he took his own life, so if it can happen to someone like him, it can happen so yeah it's been moments where it's been pure fucking despair, but I just don't know what they've been in me to keep me ticking, I don't know and I've had a few people say to me who were proper hard lads said and I couldn't have done what you've done, it got to that stage where it just became the norm and if I can't explain to you how it feels to have done 30 years, I can't explain it, it goes right over my fucking head you know what I'm saying right, the other month I was in this fucking apartment and I thought should I go out, should I go out, should I go out and I thought fuck it going out yeah, as soon as I got out pissing down and there's most of it weird yeah, big deal, don't take any classes, so smoking a bit of weed and I was thinking why the fuck have I come out and I looked in the shadow of the window and thought yes I'm free and I had a right good night when I wanted to see something on my own, load of fucking stupid mad bars, transvestites there, every fucking walking life, had a right good night, had a drinking session with these fucking five lesbian girls from Solford, had a right good night and I thought yeah I'm free and it was a good feeling, it was the only time I've ever felt like that, any time when I got out I just took it like a pinch of salt, I didn't stand there going wow this is bright fantastic and even when I had my very first escorted day out, I only had one or two of them, didn't have own leaves and stuff like that like anyone else, never got that, I had a day out once with my life officer Claire and I was with her for an hour and she said you know something, you've never been to Darby Town Centre, you're giving people fucking directions, I said I know, she said it seems like you've been in 20 months, not 20 odd years, she said you're not re-built, you're not institutionalised, you don't need all that muddy cuddling, but I don't want all that, didn't want all that, don't want to go on for the weekend and keep looking at me, watching, going back, my attitude was you fucking dump me in the deep end, throw me in, throw me out of the deep end, you kick me in, kick me in, throw me out, don't want that day here getting a taste of it and the day there, that's just, that's just slowing my life down that, going back to jail and having a taste of it, don't want all that and I didn't, so I'm glad I didn't get that and they were saying oh we can't leave religion so you've had own leaves and this and that, don't need it and she said for me on a pro report you don't need all that shit and I didn't just wanted to be get out and find out myself because the system, we don't know how you can respond to this and we don't respond, we don't know how you can respond to that, well how do you know until they do it and here's another thing, what are you supposed to say to me on pro-learns, we're finding it too hard now to release you because you've been in too long so we're going to review you in two years time, so I used to say but then it would have been in even longer What was it like when you got your parole, do you remember the feeling after 30 years? Yeah, like I say, me life officer, I went in the pro-learn mate, every pro-learn I've had to struggle and battle and prove and prove in a powerful way that you are lying, I've had the best legal teams and best psychiatrist on me pro-learns and stuff, arguing with some two Bob trainees straight out of college, arguing with someone who's been in the job 30 years, so I've just got the right people at the right time to attack them and prove them wrong, but I've still not got nothing on me last pro-learn, soon as I sat down I got told there was a I got parole, then I started saying oh you might even need me case, let me still say fuck you know, you've got it, I said hold on, but I don't see anything change from that 18 month ago, so if it was deemed not that dangerous enough to be released 18 month ago, the only thing I've done different is moved prison, it makes no sense to me, I've not done nothing different and I sat and took my coat off, soon as I walked in there, you went to ask me some question like where you going to live when you get out or what do you mean you've got your release, well fuck you now, I mean sat down, be emotional, no I wasn't, I wasn't numb, I wasn't apprehensive, I wasn't thinking all fucking scared, wasn't anything like that, I just thought don't know how I'm living in my head, all my life, how hard is that like doing a fairy stretch, but people have got your life in a piece of paper where they can sign it off to get out or they can keep you in just like a caged monkey, how hard is that knowing that people are terrible and just they've veiled off that a little bit, how many people have been in the system and been knotted off and things like that, where a piece of paper's been signed and they've been sent to these hospitals and just been forgotten off, feeded like cattle and people like that and that's gone on. I know people who never went for psychology reports in case they got knotted off, just left it, just fucking left it to try and get a cat B, can't see, just stayed in double cat A, double cat A, can't you? In Parkhurst you'd always be called creepers or something, the fucking dots are there who run the hospital, believe you used to fucking run around the forest naked, that was the rumor with a mask on and he was nutting people off left, right and fucking, sent their name, so I've never been in fear of that and but I used to always fear of having nobody, having no family, he got no communication out there with no one because then he can do what the fucking one, who have you got to tell, who's listening to you, no one, so I always had like my sister and someone like that, so that was good, always had a lifeline out there, but there's so many people who have just got faded, faded away, you never see him again. See when you got out for the first day, what was it like being with your mum that that must have hit you like a ton of blood? My younger sister picked me up at Salle and like I say, it was her biological dad who over murdered, how did, what did she say about it? She came on my crawl every once at Salle and she said to the pro board, I think it's disgraceful how long my brother's been in, my dad was a nasty man, blah, blah, blah and you're just ripping our family apart, keeping my brother in any longer and yeah, the right attitude against that, the pro board and she told me, she told me, I asked, he had another daughter and the probation service got in touch with our Salle saying this other daughter wants to get in touch with her, so they agreed and when our Salle met her, she said, how's your dad doing? Has he got kids married and all that, and our Salle said he's still in prison, she went what, still in prison for that and that was his own daughter, so yeah, I am bitter that I've missed out on wife, kids, all that type of stuff, because I always get so they'd make a good father, I'd piss poor father because they'd just sign me around the finger, you know what I mean, can't say no to him, but yeah, that hurts in a sense, if I think about it, that does hurt, but I mean a lucky place in the sense that you probably agree with this, I've seen that a lot of people who've done a long time in prison, even five years in prison, 10 years in prison, 30 years in prison or whatever, and some of them have got out and they've made it as in states, had anger and stuff like that, and some of them have just turned to drugs, defeated life of just nothing, you know what I mean, I've been to business skills and Google garage doing business skills and stuff like that, I want to go down that business line me, you know what I mean, I've missed out on having a business career or any career spending 30 years in my life, you know what I mean, so yeah, I'm lucky in the sense that could have been a person who never comes out, never, you know, just hibernates and just can't, and got conversation and anything like that, the other day I sat there with fucking four Irish girls having a fucking bottle of wine, didn't even know them, they said no, he invited me over, so yeah, and I told them about what we was doing, and they didn't bat an eyelid of what I told them, and I'm not fucking ashamed of what I've been in prison for on evil, I'm not, I will tell someone, I've been the first person yet, I've been in prison for this, and I'm not ashamed, I've not gone and killed someone just for the sake of killing them, or killing them because they support fucking a different religion or different football team, or because he's got a prison uniform on or a cop uniform, nothing of the sort man, you know what I mean, so I'm lucky that I've still got my head about me, and I've still got desires and dreams and yeah dreams and say the word is, don't know what the future holds in that sense, really don't, see when you get a fairly done, and then you come out, what's the biggest change you've seen to society? All fast things I'd say, but I jumped in a car straight away and drove it, and that didn't put me off at all, where you used to get fucking sick of people, remember once I was in a jail and I'd been in six weeks, six weeks, and he's had a day out, and he came back going, oh everything's so fast and all, fucking hell get a grip, in six weeks, I didn't stand on the pavement going wow and all that lot, I just got in the side of it, and loads of people and on that said, looking at your dad and just, no one would ever guess, he'd just done 30 years, he self switched on and you're modding, you dress well and up to date and stuff like that, so yeah, I wasn't apprehensive crossing the road and dealing with money or anything like that, nah, there's nothing like that, you know what I mean, one apprehensive getting out, one fearful of anything, yeah you're not a fucking crapple, do you know what I mean, but there's some people who do big sentences and end up doing more shit and they're because of fearful of coming out, I've seen it, I've seen it, yeah, I can't understand that, I can't understand that, a driver have a life out here, then a life in there, you know what I mean, horrible world in there, it is, you dress it up, we've just had a beautiful breakfast this morning, beautiful, right, that's just a fucking dream in prison, it is, you know what I can say, me walking down that road one night piss went free and I just looked in the window and I thought I'm free, go wear the fucker one, you lose track on that, you do, you really do lose track on that and that's an horrible thing to lose, but like I said, there's so many people who are not going to ever get them chances, but this is my life, not theirs sort of thing, do you know what I mean, if I had my way I'd fucking have them all on, but I don't, so I've got some good friends in prison still and I wish I could see them get home, you know what I mean, some of them might, some of them might not, it hurts me that in a sense and I tell you what, when I got, when I was moving from full-sorting and I had a bit of a tear in me, I, leaving me two mates, Simon and Troy, I did and they said to me the nicest thing, because they're doing 35 wrecks, right, 10 into it, eight into it and like I said, Troy, Troy died, rest his soul and I was like gutted that I was leaving them, knowing I'm not going to be able to speak to them ever again and he said hey listen, no wise you was rotting in them blocks and fucking going for your pure shit, we was outside having a right good fucking time, short term now and that meant a lot to me that, you know what I mean, it did, because there's two men who might never come up, might never come home and they was wishing me that from the bottom of their hearts, you know what I mean, so leaving people behind like that soft as it sounds, it's in a sense because I've got that chance, you know what I mean, so getting out wasn't apprehensive of anything, I wasn't scared of anything and I didn't even see it as a big adventure, I was just looking forward to getting, getting on with, getting on with it, a better life, I'd say, more educated, I'm a man now, not an 18-year-old, wild young kid off and out, I was in the state, because that's what I was, you know what I mean, but no serious offending, selling drugs to your kids and burglaring your house and shit like that, never done anything like that, you know what I mean, so I'm 53 years old now, don't feel it, still fit like, train every guy I haven't trained for a while, been boxing and all that shit, all the bit white colour boxing and all that, but yeah, training has been the key for me, that's the best drug in prison, because you know what I say, you need something to get through them lonely fucking horrible years and I've seen this, people who've not sucked drugs in prison, they've got also damaged, they have, so yeah, I'm 53, I don't feel like I'm 53, especially when I'm training, it does keep me head in gear, you know what I mean, I've got a big super bike, I'm lucky for us to get it out next week, yeah, I don't know what the future holds, I've not sort of tried and worked that one out, but yeah, I want good things in my life, fucking right, I do want something to show for my life, I say, all my sisters have got children, they've got something to show for in their lives, you know, I don't have that, so I don't use that as, I don't think of that even, you know what I mean, it's home sometimes when I'm with people and they see me with kids and their kids, their kids or strangers, kids come in the room and they owe me money, because I'm a big kid, you know what I mean, they owe me money, and we have a lot of fucking life, got my little niece, a little motocross bike, none of them are happy over it, like, but it should be like that, but yeah, I don't know, I don't know what the future holds, like I say, I've never thought about going down that book, doing a book, I don't even see myself as, I've got a story in me for fuck's sake, because I don't think anything's particularly special about my life, my story, it's just another fucked-up sort of story from the British justice system, but one of many. Because you have lived it, that will not feel as extreme, but you've done 30 fucking years for killing your mum's abuser, like, I don't condone violence, but I condone that, thinking of your mother, I would die for my kids, my family, I would kill for them, no fucking, no blinking an eye, no fucking problem, but this is the society we're in, like there's too much people getting away with shit that should be getting big sentences, pedophiles, sex cases, people's harming kids getting out, on fucking community service, harming more kids and then getting 12 months, do you know what I mean, like, they should be getting the big sentences, obviously you've done a lot of shit in there, but it doesn't warrant doing a fairly stretch, but how do, what's the worst thing about being in prison, Dan? Straight away, having your freedom took your choice, but, you know, being a fucking adult and looking back, the shit what you've got to put your fucking family through, you know, I must have put my mum and dad through shit, brothers and sisters and shit, but not only just the shit and the loss, but spending all them years apart, I've not seen my sisters have a life, they've not seen their little brother have a life, so just having them things took away from you and all the possibilities what I could have had in life, I haven't got a clue what my life would have been like if I never went to prison, I haven't got a clue, I might have kids, big dogs, big divorce even, but I don't know. You did? Yeah, and I could have, yeah, so try not look too much into that sort of thing because it puzzles me sometimes, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's right, yeah. But like I say, when anyone asks me about how you got through it and that, I don't have an answer or maybe you do have an answer but I just can't explain it, I don't know. It's mad, like I've got friends from Saltford, Manchester, they're mad bastards as well, they're wired up wrong, they're fucking, they're mad bastards, solid stones, go to work with them, they would be there in the heartbeat, if I needed them, they'd be there in the heartbeat, not that I do, but I know how fucking tough they are, like the Scousers, like the Lindeners and fucking the Glaswegians, like there's something in the water where you go, the fact the whole of the UK is mad bastards from the top to the bottom, it's a tough fucking nation, like it's tough bastards, yeah. You said it's tough fucker from up here, Bob Carothers. Yeah, Big Rob, yeah, passed away as well. Yeah, another one, you know what I mean? Yeah, he was tough man, the Krillers. Yeah, you know. He was friends with Paul Ferris. Yeah, another gentleman, you know what I mean? Another guy who's had nothing but shits in his life, but look how he's fucking flourished, got nothing but admiration and respect for that man. You know what I mean? Don't know the guy, what a tough guy he is, you know what I mean? No people have met him and know him and that. But yeah, like say, I've had a very strange journey, met the most strangest people in the stages, circumstances, and my sister said to me the other month, you know, I had you there, said to me, if any of you could regrets, I can answer that straight a fucking way, I can do it straight away. I said, no, I've got regrets of missing time with my mum and dad, use my sisters, my brothers, my nieces and nephews and all that, like missing kids and stuff like that. But apart from anything else, no, I don't, because one, I could have only met these people on the journey what I was on. And some of the people I've met in prison, I've not met people as good out here. I've had people in prison do me more good in a week than I've had people on my life do out here. You know what I mean? Really good, true bond friendships, you know what I mean? Where I know for a fact, they will never fuck me over in any way. And the two strangers just come together at circumstances, so I've met some beautiful people in that sense, you know what I mean? So I would have never met them people, and I would have never swapped that for nothing. That's mad the cards people get dealt in life. Listen, I've had people on here who's fucking abused at six years old, amazing women, Sarah Sange, she killed her son's abuser, like just mad stories. It's mad to think the cars that people get dealt in life, like, would you change that night you killed your mum's abuser? Yeah, of course I would, yeah. Or would you kind of just, because you could have obviously killed your mum? Yeah. But do you go over that night and think fuck me in 30 years of my life? I never do. Maybe I'm wired up a little bit different, I don't know. Would you change that night though? Of course I would, yeah. Anyone who said no, I'd do the same, knowing the consequences of what you are going to go through, but not what you might go through. Anyone that'd have to be a filter to choose it, because, I don't know, 30 years out here, then 30 years in there, because I've done more life, I've done more living as an adult in prison than ever outside, you know what I mean? That's pretty weird to get me head round, but like I say, I could be a lot worse off, I could be a raving drug addict, absolute fucked, mental health issues, because a lot of people have got mental health issues, you know, years ago people had mental health issues, you've got to go and show up, you're mad cunt, you know what I mean? But like we said before, I have seen some really strong soldiers, some really strong soldiers, strange people who've summits happened in the brain, the less fortunate in me, and I'm here to, you know, start living one step at a time, so I think, you know what I mean? So I'm fortunate in that sense, and I'm so fortunate that my sisters and that see me like that as well, you know what I mean? I've not got a close family anymore, always happens when your parents break down, you know, my dad died 20 years ago, you know, unexpected, my mum died. So our family, so I've drifted apart a little bit, and it probably would have drifted apart more and quicker if my mum wasn't there. So glad my mum did get to see her boy come home, because that's what she wanted more than anything, you know what I mean? Do you think she stayed there like for you again? I reckon so, yeah, I do, and it was very strange, and my mum died, just killed over the next day when she was putting up for them royals, but the day before, she was adamant, adamant to see her new granddaughter, and took me over granddaughter out for tea. So I was like, she was adamant to go and do that to my mum for some reason, and she just killed over my sister found her, her and my mum's cup of tea was still up, so it just happened, you know what I mean? So I'm glad that I got out, because I don't know how it would have felt. That wouldn't have been a nice thing, would have fucked off, would have fucked off or something, you know what I mean? Would have been having it, not about for more years and shit. So I'm glad I got out, and my mum got to see that, see me get out, you know what I mean? Did you get out with your dad's funeral? Yeah, I did, and I sold him straight and fucking going, you know what I mean? I've had no leads, I've smitten for one man, and I've tried to fuck him about from going to his son's funeral. Yeah, yeah, I've seen that, and it's fucking diabolical, like that is just wrong, that it's fucking wrong, you know? They want you to be rehabilitated, you're gonna just be left with nothing but bitterness when you've been treated like that, asking to go to your grandparents, you're asking to your sons, and I went to meet dads, there was no problems whatsoever, no problems whatsoever. So, yeah, and like I say, it was a mark of respect for me dad, you know what I mean? I got up and done a speech and I said to the screws, these cuffs are coming off, I'm getting up and done, it's doing the speech, and it did, and I'm so glad it did, you know what I mean? Did you ever think about fucking off when they took the handcuffs off? Well, they did fuck off in 2003, I had six months off, got an escort, he'd visit home, blagged them, because he was moving me everywhere and I blagged them, and yeah, cut the cuffs off and left them sat there like they've come, shouting on the streets, how far do you bastard, and they took off and left them empty-handed, one of the screws went greater the next day, tough. How long you on there on for? Six months, and you wonder how you done a fairy? Yeah, I just got home in my life. Well, was it like you're skating for six months? It was great. What happened that day, talking through the whole day? Went to my mum's to see her, because my mum was poor like, and screws was paining the asses with me, going, taking you to the police station, if you want, use the toilet and all that, like, okay, no, I'm in my mum's house now, mum calls the shots, you know what I mean? So, went to the bathroom, cuffed up, mysteriously come off, you know what I mean? So we must have just left somewhere, he mysteriously come off, and I came back downstairs with him still on, attached, and when he went right, it's time to go, I said that right, I just went, go off, fucking bounced him out of the way and go off, I left him stood there, running around, fucking looking for the phone to use to phone the police, asking people if he's seen a lad from past, with handcuffs, one lad went in there and southward, did it, he went, yeah, he went now, we're not seeing him. Yeah, so I did that because I said, spent, I've done 15 years over tariff by then, you know what I mean? So, enough is enough. You know, how many times are you going to keep knocking me back and open, open, open? Listen, some countries you've got the right to escape, good on them, where's that, what, go and live there, you know what I mean? Yous have got better laws than us, you know what I mean? I think it is barbaric that you can go back to prison for some misdemeanorship, and where, where, where is the, imagine it, right? You've got a wife, kids, mortgage, you're on a life license, you get recalled for some shit, paying this, job logs are on the corner, you don't even get a fine for, but you're going back to prison. Your job's gone, your mortgage, you're paying that, she's out on the rear, you're kiddin' the wife, you've gone back to prison for some of what, don't really worry about the prison sentence. How can you start making ends meet and having a life, when everything's, yeah, living on eggshells, everything can be taken away like that, you can do something wrong without even knowing you've done something wrong, you know? Associated with some, recall your ask questions, but there's got to be a better way to punish you. Seem you were on the trot, where did you go? I had a nice little flat, and I was just going out to work, yeah? I was living totally normal, looking good with GTI, living normal, just cracking on with it, got pulled by the police, gave them a right load of fanny, I couldn't run, I had a big fucking dog with him, and I just stood there and gave him some load of bullshit details, he was asking me like, have you ever had your dabs taken before? I was like, what then? Fingerprints, all right. Anyway, producer, off you go. Me mate, it's just shitting it more than me, I just, I just got on with my life, I don't wear white to get on with my life, I didn't think like, well, I'm looking over my shoulder, just getting on with it. So you were actually living an honest living, you weren't out thinking, fuck it, I'm going to do a couple of robberies, fuck off, just living totally normal life, I don't believe. Did you change your appearance or anything? The photographs, what they had, what my man gave him, oh my god, looks him off Sesame Street, he was looking for Donald Duckus or something, not fucking me, nothing like me. My man went, that's the life, that's the life. I wasn't even looking for Charlie Bronx, you know what I mean? So yeah, I just got on with my life and I believe that he was a mention in the paper, I think a journalist done it for me, he was a mention like, you know, one here, blah, blah, blah, in the paper, dangerous. And someone pointed out to him, a journalist from the Guardian. And he changed it and said, apologize, he ain't dangerous, he's one of the dangerous persons I think. And even the police had seen me when I was on my toes. We could have had you a few times, you know. But we knew you weren't up to fuck all, just getting on with it, 100 million miles away and shit like that. So I wasn't no afraid in that sense. And like I say, same situation with Alan Lord and people like that. You've done no bad, bad, bad, but they just keep treating you like... Be so sure. Shit, shit, shit, you're getting nothing, you're getting nothing. Now I had, you proceed through the system, I remember once I went on a prowl hearing, right? He was going on over me, threatening to throw boiling water over the screw, right? I said it in a flippant remark, 15 years earlier. My legal team went, got no notice of this. When was it? I think about the last six months. 1994. My legal team went, you know, it was 15 years ago, I know. Going on about it, because he had nothing else to go on. So he was making a big mountain over that. How dare you threaten a prisoner? I said, no, I didn't threaten, didn't have it in me hand doing that. I just said, listen, fuck off. No wonder someone fucking tries to throw a bottle of water over you last week. You get it again. Something like that, flippant remark. 15 years later, going mad on me prowl hearing. And that was the prowl hearing that my sister came on and said, you know, it was my dad who died. My brother shouldn't be fucking spending this long in prison. And that's his own door for, say, you know, and I've never had anybody. I've never had anybody say, you're about to come for what you've done. Never had it. And I've sought to source ranges. Like I say, was in a really fancy art gallery doing business with them, buying some of it. And they all know me background and stuff like that. And I told him, I've never had that piece of shit. Never been treated like that. You know what I mean? So I just always had the intention of just getting on with my life and being a decent person, you know what I mean? And I have got some good values and good ethics, you know? Now, it's nice to be nice in it. And like I say, being in them situations in prison where everything's just volatile in a confrontation. I say the one nicest thing I recognise of being a free man is life can't be nice if you treat people right, you know what I mean? Seeing you were on your toes and you get caught, you thinking that's me fuck? Yeah. I'm never getting out. Yeah. Really did. Why did you not fuck off? Funds probably. Loving your mother as well? Yeah. Did you not want to leave her? That wouldn't have been the case. My mum would have said, go and fucking enjoy your life. Yeah. My sisters would have had that attitude. They would have. Only because they're thinking, when's my fucking brother coming home? You know, they're seeing contract killers and terrorists coming home after 10 years, 11 years. Their poor brother's still in after 20 years. They just wanted to see me have some kind of life, you know what I mean? And like I say, I'm not this person who's been in prison. This is my first time in prison. My first time. You know what I mean? So I wasn't a bad cunt where I'm just vicious, vicious, vicious. It wasn't the case. So my sisters would have had, my sisters would have been made up if I was abroad on my toes, living the life, living. What have? Obviously they didn't get to that. That and obviously I got out legally instead, which is a good thing. But I don't think I should have had to go through fucking 29, 30 years. I don't think it can be justified. And I would love some top legal people and stuff like that. Because when I was speaking to a QC Barrister, I got the Alexson female speaking to her and a show on her, that transcript where the judges said there was no premeditation to kill Harko's grievous body arm. She straight away said she looked shocked at a profession and she said, dad, that's not a murder case. So I would love someone who's willing to have a battle with the system, take my legal case on and get some justice and some answers. But the one's nicest thing I would like out of life, right at this moment, I've lost my mom, I've lost my dad, I've lost lots of other people. And said to me probation officer one day, I don't expect you to turn around and say to me, it's totally justified what the system has done. You've not done it to me, but the system. And I said, I just love it for you to say to me, wasn't just, it wasn't fair. And she did. And that meant a lot to me that. Now we're going, well, darling, I don't really know the circumstances of this and that, that, that. Don't worry about bullshit. I just want to hear you as a human being. You know what I mean? For your prison uniform or your probation badge or whatever. I just want to hear you. Do you think I justified doing that when you've got people doing this, this, this, this? And she said, now it isn't, darling. And that was good enough for me in that sense. So I've lost a lot, still got a lot to give. But it's like a home somewhere you could call home and start having a life and things like that, you know, set me business up. I'd like to meet an investor and put a bit of time into me and modiculate me and mould me into something better and things like that. Because I'm like a raw diamond, maybe, you know what I mean? Got a lot of ideas and love, get up and go. Just need that portion. Sounds like we all need, you know what I mean? You'd be surprised to watch these things, darling. If anybody maybe want to get involved, they maybe want to help you and give you that extra little lift in life to give you a chance. Yeah. It's all down to you. Whether you take that chance or you fuck it and go, do you know what? Nah, he's not worth it. But anybody, there's so many genuine people watch these podcasts and go, do you know what? He sounds like a good guy. I'm going to give him a fucking chance that how can people get in contact with you in case they want to offer you a job? But listen, give you that opportunity. If they got in such a way, give you that opportunity. Yeah, of course you can. They can drop me a message on Instagram, Facebook, email and I can pass the message on. First of all, make sure they're legit. Yeah. So there's a lot of chances out there as well. But there is genuine people out there who go, do you know what? There's a fucking job that people... I'd love that because that's all we all need in life, a peg up and no matter if you made it a fucking bullet proof or not, you still need a peg up in life. And like you say, he don't dawn on me sometimes of how long I've been away. Because sometimes I still feel like I'm 21. Fit. You know what I mean? I'm not. So a lot of years in life has passed me by. I remember once I phone the probation and I was pissed off, she was nitpicking over some bullshit. And I was just looking at all the business people in the offices, living life, going to work, careers. I had a bit of a turning me out and I said, you know what I mean? I missed out on all that. You know what I mean? And it doesn't... But I know I've got a lot more to fucking offer than what I've given already. I really do believe that. And I think that's the be all and end of it. Me motivation of getting out and digging deep. Because I say many times I've sat there thinking, I'm never fucking getting out here. Never. Just accept it. So I think, you know what I mean? Where I've seen other people who are not getting out. So they've just accepted it, you know what I mean? But I knew I had a lot more to give. I knew we had a slight chance of getting out. Remember once I bumped into Delroy showers who's a bit of a shot from Liverpool. And I used to say to him, I'll be getting out me. Don't you fucking bloody Delroy and he'd go. And when I bumped into him when I was out, he went, you know, nephew, he calls me nephew. I said, what? He went, I don't think you'd get out, you know. I said, listen, keep the faith mate. I knew it would. I just had to box clever. And I realised the pen was my ear and the sword. Because I started educating myself and doing things like that. Going through the right ways, going through the courts and stuff like that. That's where I was. I was beating the pain in the arse. I had everyone in court on my wing, taking them to the county court for this, like any of all. But I started doing that. And remember once my mate said to me, it was five to five on a Christmas evening. Tea time banged up. I banged up. Done me legal shit here. And I wrote. Screws come into my door every 15, so every minute it's checking on me. Next morning, he opened me up at half nine, half eight or something. Christmas day, our Christmas boxing day. And the screw said to the outlaw brothers, he's not moved all night. So they're just doing my only legal work. Just John speaks, didn't they work? You know what I mean? And that's what kept me alive, I think. Because I didn't used to do that side. I'd be back. All that. Going down that road, still a pain in the ass. It was more productive in the long run. And I think that sort of sort of kept me alive in the sense that giving me hope where I was doing something. But yeah, I would love to see some justice out of it, of course I would. Oh, God, yeah. I've never even had an apology. Saying, listen, he was a bit in excessive, you know what I mean? That'd go down nice. But I don't think anyone and on that concern around say, yeah, it's justified what we've done to this man. Especially when you're letting contract killers out after doing 15 years, 20 years, you've killed two people. And you've got to also bear in mind, I've not committed no acts of violence ever since my ex-offence. You know what I mean? Even though I've lived in a crazy, unruly, fucking mad house, you know what I mean? Where people are getting stabbed, fucking killed for a piece of salt, seen it, seen it. Nothing but violence. Uh, yeah, I've seen someone stabbed to death. Yeah, seen that. A few times, things like that. Uh, cooking fat thrown over someone. Deserved it as well. It's that one that I can't do that. So he was getting it anyway. He was an horrible cunt. But yeah, Melody's fucking head, mate. Melody's head. That's not sugar and war. This is something else. This is cooking fat. What's been on the cooker for fucking four hours. Like, nae palm. I've seen nothing but that. I've seen naughtiness like that. And yeah, how the other half live, eh? And I hate unnecessary violence. Absolutely fucking hate it. I hate seeing people having a confrontations over bullshit. Just leads to naughtiness, don't it? Like I say, my area's seen a lot of naughtiness where I came from. Like I say, notorious case 12 years ago. You know, Dale Cregan and that's the area where I come from. I know all them. No one is at the end of the day if it is there. It's just ruined lots and lots of lives. Lots of poor lads never coming home, ever. And some of them who have got 33 rex. The 33 when they got it, I had one of them say, fucking hell, dad, if I'm fitting self for you, it's you after I've done 25, I'll be happy. I said, you're forgetting, I got mine as a kid. 18, 19, not 33. Big difference. So lots of people who are fucking so far, my misfortune and me. And I say, at the end of it, he's not a winner at the end of it. It's just what a better life. I want people who will love to have a better life. And see some out on my life. I mean, like I say, I've never thought about writing a book. I've had people say to me, probation officers and people like that, loads of times you've got a book in you. I can, I can, yeah, like fuck sometimes. You know, I mean, I can, I don't know what it is, but I've never, I've looked at these people who write books and I've just thought, I can't understand these people who write books and that admitting shit from years back. I can't understand that. Got away with it, sweet, just stupid shit. Yeah, yeah, I killed booking Johnny Ninefingers six years ago, blah, blah, blah. I don't know all that. So I've never thought about a book in that sense, but I've had a lot of people say to me, you know, some of you have got a book in you and looking at that, I probably would like to be, if I had that chance, I probably would like to go down that road. Like they told me, they told me new to me this and maybe be a good book where it was, that's like necessarily a self-help book. Okay, I don't know if they work, but I'd like to see some positive revenue just being a crime book. Yeah, definitely. And that's the thing about these podcasts, that people get to tell their story and what happens as it gives them a new lease of life, gives them the confidence. Wait a minute, people like my story, people are sending me messages saying, unbelievable fair play to you for coming through it, like you're still here to tell the tale. You don't have fair history. I was never apprehensive at meeting you and we've said that this morning. Like I say, I didn't read anything. A couple of them have spoken on the phone and I knew, I clicked with you straight away, I knew you was a tough guy, you know what I mean? Never mind speaking to everyone in your city last night. Offer you be lines of coke and everything. Give me your phone number, you said, I said, what for? I'm going to have some coke. James's good stuff, I said, nah, mate, I'll be on form in the morning. I'm looking all the way back at some girl called Lindsay. She's spot on at Lindsay, she was good stuff. But yeah, I wasn't apprehensive at doing this. I knew that doing anything like this is different being, where you're being recorded and stuff like that. But yeah, like I've been told this morning, just be yourself in it and I'm not the fucking person, I'm not a perfect person. I've got a few flaws in my life, obviously, and we all. But yeah, I'd like some good to come out of my life and some positive and I'm so glad I'm fucking out. So glad I've got a chance to have a life. And I know though what's good to listen to being, that's in this sense, all these people who are doing whatever. Oh, they don't have to go through this shit, that's a go for it. You know what I mean? I don't wish on anyone, you know what I mean? Because you don't realize this when you're 17, 18, you just think it's you, you, you, you, you. You're paying for it. My mum and dad must have gone through a lot, you know what I mean? Never mind my sisters and things like that. So there's been no winners out of this. And like I say, I could easily be better, could easily be like that. But then there's going to be no winners than is there. I have got a lot to give. I'd like to be that cheerful, happy person. Like I say, if I can turn a new page in my life, a totally new page in my life. I don't know what that page is. You views will probably have more of an idea than that, than me. I don't know, that'll probably pop it will. Like I say, someone might be able to put me, you know, write, path and submit in a totally open new set of doors. And that's what I've found as well when I got out. Insultiate with criminals. I know lots of them. And I have had nights out with one or two of them and stuff like that. But no, don't associate in that life. But that's a good thing because to make changes, you must change everything, your whole outlook and life, fucking how you think, how you feel that you've done a fairly stretch. And like you say, you're still here to tell the tales, you've got something to give. I say I got out when I was doing Google business classes, come top of the class of that. And entrepreneur and stuff. I was in the room with some serious entrepreneurs and I came first, I think. So I was totally new, chapter in my life that I never thought if you said to me 10 years ago, you're gonna be like well into going to our galleries and buying really smart pieces of art and things like that. What? But when I go into these places, I feel so welcome and I can hold me home with them, you know what I mean? So at some stage I thought I was gonna get out and it was gonna just be a life of crime. So again, buckling the system, yet again, yet again, yet again. But I've got a different art and a different head to that. I ain't seen unnecessary violence and all that shit, what violence and the drugs, I ain't all what comes with that. Anyone in the right mind would want that, you know what I mean? Especially someone who's got kids, they'd see it as a different, I don't have that. But as a human being, it's, you know, it's effects in everyone's life. So what a better life for me. So he said they're getting out and being in that circle. You know, when I met up with my mate, he was a criminal. It's not a criminal relationship what we've got, because some of his mates or businessmen never brought the law in any way whatsoever. So I've been around them, good surroundings, because some good people and they're like, well-to-do business people. So I can hold my own in that sense, in that environment rather than just being in an environment full of ex-convicts, you know what I mean? And I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that. I thought I could only hold my own in that environment, because I've been in that environment so long. You know what I mean? I still call women miss when I'm in fucking shot. And when I'm with some bird or whatever, they look at me and go, you fucking div. Miss, I like it. I'm a prison officer, I am miss, can you open the door? So I'm like, oh, yeah, excuse me, miss. Yeah, but you're going to have habits from prison, man, especially when I like it for the time you've done. For anybody that's watching, Dan, that's maybe, I don't know, kind of struggling themself, that you've spent 30 years in prison, you've got through it, you're here to tell the tale. What advice would you give for anybody that's in the struggle just now? That's free. You know, I've never looked into that counseling side and shit like that. Right, I use that word, flick on that shit. I've never looked at that, right? And probably one reason is, in prison, you can't speak up and say you've got a problem. If you're doing it, a sentence, a big sentence, is used against you. Say like for instance, you was depressed. Soon as the fucking psychology gets to know you're depressed, don't fuck me, don't lay him out. Oh, it's going to kill someone. So you've got to keep it shut. And I was speaking to a mental health worker woman one day, nothing about anything, just got a conversation going. And she said to me, you've got to be suffering from PTSD and things like that. So I said, why? She said, you've got to have. You've been through pure nothing but ordeals. Then when I'm speaking to other people, like a doctor or a psychologist and people like that, they've all got the opinion as well. So I have seeked counseling, which is a first for me, you know what I mean? But it can't do me no harm. It can only bring me some good. Maybe open a different chapter in my brain. Maybe a light bulb might go off on me, as I don't know. But on the question, he's like, say, just getting out and drugs ain't the answer. Going out and getting, having a binge full of coke every fucking weekend and become every day and shit like that. That's not the answer. Trying to get a good home. Like someone said to me, the one guy we met, he was getting out of jail. First thing you need to do is get a good bird. Every time you get a bird, you fuck it up. All right? So you don't need a good bird. You need a home, a base. So that's everything people need to start having a life. A base. If in the prison service, probation service, this is where everything's fucking shocking. All these hours is what you need a guarantor for. Say Manchester, say 650, 650 quid. You can't get, because you haven't got guarantor. But you can get one that doesn't need a guarantor for, say, 650, which is a shit hole. You get landlords who are renting hours out to the probation service. So you've got one house full of ex-cons. I was at probation every day. Someone had to say, yeah, you lived in my flat once. I said, yeah, I had it there. Fucking never lived in it. Lived in it once, one night. And that's an house full of... So you'll see all your residents over a period of weeks sending probation. I don't think that's a good DNA. Having an house full of ex-prisoners all living together. I don't. So I think anyone getting in jail and living and getting out and having that life, being around that, I think it's coming out to work quite well. And these people who are going to get out and just think they're going to carry on where they left off, with their old mates and stuff like that. Good if it works out for them and they make loads of money, whatever, whatever, whatever floats the boat. But they might fall out on some, get out of jail and end up on an operation next minute, recall for some bullshit being innocent as fuck. You know, I say, try and not put yourself in that situation. Live your fucking life. Especially, it's hard to say live your life to someone who's just done like say five years because they probably don't know where I'm coming from. You know. But someone who's just done 30 years, 25 years or whatever, I think he knows where I'm coming from. As in someone saying it's the five years, you've had nothing but shit like in your life. This is a makeup break. So I say, I'm 53 me, you know what I mean? I've got all the worlds, all the fucking years and years left in me. My dad died at six there. Healthy guy never smoked and drank. So he can come at all of us. So anyone who's getting out, and they think they're gonna just fall back into where they left off, I think that'll be a dead downfall. Yeah. You know what I mean? How do you feel coming on today and telling your story? Very relaxed. Honestly, me, you, you've made me feel that journey that we had that made me feel good. You're especially what you've laid down for me, mate. Say what? Me and my friend, we've had a beautiful morning. Beautiful, everything. Beautiful shower like I told you. Beautiful, everything. And I wouldn't have swapped this day for anything. You know what I mean? And I'm prepared for anything me. As in you'll get some people on there, you'll cut me off like fuck. I really care. Don't care. I'll get someone who might like, some what I say, might not. Oh, I don't really care in that sense. Not come on to offend people. Not come on to say I'm the victim. But like a bit of justice, because it is lopsided and it is unjust and it is disproportionate and things like that. But yeah, so glad I've done this today. Because before I seen your podcast with Alan, I never thought about doing anything like that. Someone sort of mentioned it to me and it's just gone in and out, one in and out the other. But yeah, that's what I'm manning you today. Yeah, likewise, mate. Yeah. I'm listening for coming on and telling your story, mate. I thoroughly enjoyed that. I wish you nothing but the best for your future and for anybody that's watching. Get in contact with me if you can help Darren out with anything. We very much appreciated. I believe the guy has a chance. And like I say, mate, if you get a chance or so down to you, how do you take it or not? Would you like to finish up on anything else, Dan? I hope not offended anyone. Hope you've enjoyed it. I have. I've enjoyed meeting this man. And I hope you enjoy everything else, what this man does. And if anyone else has got any positive feedback on my life, what I can do, help me out, peg me up or whatever. Investors, anyone who wants to help me read a book, take the system to court, bring it on. Good, man. My pleasure. James, thank you. Thank you, mate. See you later. Thank you.