 People of the Internet welcome to modern-day debate tonight. We are debating was Russia provoked by the US and slash the West We have an extra special debate tonight produced in association with Dylan burns TV Dylan is joining us tonight as my co-moderator He will be the primary moderator for tonight's open discussion. Dylan. Do you have anything you want to say or are you even there? No, he's not there In the meantime, I will just like to say that tonight all the super chats will be going to a special charity for research for the terminal disease known as Kreuzfeld-Jakob syndrome So if you have any kind of super chats super stickers anything you want to say tonight Please feel free to send it as be will be donating 100% of the super chats to that charity tonight And that is linked in the description below as well as as well as all of our interlocutors tonight They will all be linked in the description if you'd like to let what you're hearing you can check them out as well so going first tonight we have Connor and justice causing swords with Destiny and Adam something and we will be turning it over to them for their 12-minute opening statement that would be Connor and just no actually Adam something and destiny going to go first So we'll go ahead and let them take their quick opening statements. They're not going to take the whole 12 minutes. So go ahead Adam Thank you So the west provoked Russia to war is the statement. We are here to debate tonight Destiny and I are here to argue against it while our opponents will be arguing for it surely But much like abusive spouses aggressive imperialist dictatorships and their supporters also love playing the victim And otherwise lie misdirect and gaslight The narrative our opponents will likely try to construct tonight is just that a world where pool russia the victim was forced into attacking Ukraine through circumstances created by the evil west At the same time they will downplay or deny every obvious Russian atrocity blame everything on Ukraine Shift the goalposts or maybe even pedal bunk conspiracy theories such as the u.s. Funded by our labs inside Ukraine I do not envy their position To better start us off Let's quickly review the Russian narrative regarding the invasion of Ukraine The original claim was we aren't planning to attack. It's just NATO fear-mongering Then we're only there for military exercise with believers And then we're taking we're taking Kiev and denautifying Ukraine by liquidating its leadership of drug-addicted bandera neo nazis And then we're only ensuring Ukraine's neutral status by demilitarizing it And then we want to take out the u.s. Funded by labs in Ukraine that produced anthrax infected bats and further bioweapons designed to target Russian genes And then we just want to secure the donbas and to protect locals from genocide And finally the current justification We just want to take out the Ukrainian ultra nationalist battalions As I said, I do not envy our opponents positions. This is quite the quite the position to to defend Any argument they'll attempt to make will have to be made From across the smaller and ruins of Ukrainian cities the mountains of death civilians and the ruins of hospitals In the midst of russian ochre city the abductions murder torture deportations and general looting All in all i'll be curious to see how our opponents will try to defend the indefensible Though I don't expect any good faith engagement from them obviously As the saying goes if it looks like a dog quacks like a dog denies it's a dog Demands you prove it's a dog accuses you of being a dog says your dog is a dog that your friend's cat is a dog And that all three aforementioned dogs are esophobic. It's a kremlin dog Thank you All right. Thank you adam something destiny. Would you like to take your six minutes for opening statement? And you're muted I'm sorry. Am I unmuted now? Yep Um, obviously I would like to agree with everything that adam said Oftentimes when I'm talking about the justification of russia's invasion of ukraine and whether or not russia was provoked I think that the lens is always spoken through a kind of united states and nato versus russia Kind of framing and I would be interested in how we can overcome The concept of ukraine's right to defend itself. I think that ukraine has a right to determine its own sovereignty I think that its borders were already agreed upon with russia And I just don't believe that there is any real provocation that russia can talk about when it comes to invading ukraine Um, yeah, that's all I got All right. Thank you so much and we'll go ahead and kick it over to connor and justice for their 12 minute opening statements Whichever one of you wants to go first All right, that would be me. So here we go Um Yeah, just one second here. Here we go russia's Russia's invasion of ukraine on february 23rd was an unjustified act of aggression Along with my debate partner condemned these actions as a citizen of russia a farmer in russia And a father of three holding such opinions is not exactly safe at the moment I have spoken out both publicly on my youtube channel as well as privately in conversations with friends and acquaintances Condemning the war even though such opinions are currently illegal to share and punishable by up to 15 years in prison So why would I who am against the war claim that the west is largely responsible for the mayhem now unfolding in the ukraine? I believe primarily that america's Disregard for the legitimate security concerns of lesser powers in this case russia's puts all of us at the risk of war and potentially nuclear annihilation But i'm about to present is the other side of the story a story of 30 years of western aggression of Broken promises and bad faith that if seen the other side go a long way to explaining the actions of latimer pudin and the russian state steven waltz professor at harvard university and leader of the realest school of thought and foreign policy said Strategic empathy is not about agreeing with an adversaries position. It's about understanding it so that you can fashion an appropriate response The war in ukraine is wrong But is a rational reaction to western antagonism if seen from the other side who want to live in a more sane world More peaceful world we need to learn from the mistakes of the past So as not to repeat them if you want peace with other rising powers in the world We need to look at our own behavior From the standpoint of the outsider This includes facing the uncomfortable truth the united states That the us led western world is largely responsible for the events unfolding now in the ukraine on february 9th 1990 as the soviet union teachers on the verge of collapse george bush senior along the secretary of state james baker promised michel gorbachev That if the ussr allows a peaceful reunification of germany under a nato alliance that they would guarantee no further nato expansion Then west germany france united and the united kings All signed on to this promise These western powers have been denying these promises ever since claiming that either they were never made in the first place or that these promises no longer count because it was not in writing to at least Deal briefly with the objections i'll refer you to the official records Which were posted in 2019 at george washington university's national security archive Where you can read for yourself in no uncertain terms that such promises were made by the highest officials in america These guarantees the hope that the west would not exploit russia in a moment of Vulnerability are largely responsible for the almost entirely bloodless dissolution of the soviet union december 26 1991 The ussr collapses the hammer and sickle come down from over the kremlin The iron curtain is officially a rent asunder Putin has been widely criticized in the west for claiming that the fall of the soviet union Was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century and although it cannot compare to the horror and bloodshed of either world wars With these exceptions it is second to none in human suffering and geopolitical significance In the end of the 20th century the decade after the fall of the soviet union is known by all russians As the stormy 90s the then newly formed government of russia hoped for help from her former adversaries Navigating the transition from a command and control centrally planned socialist economy to a modern market-based economy What she what she received was the shock therapy economic policies of the so-called harvard boys Which totally destroyed the russian economy instead of being a good sport after the peaceful peaceful conclusion the most dangerous epoch in history The harvard boys recommended the hapless yeltsin government Abolished all subsidies and price controls in the formerly completely socialist economy causing hyperinflation Destroying all available capital for local investment and use voucher schemes to hand over entire industries to criminal elements Which created today's oligarchs the consequences for the economy and the people of russia were beyond what most westerners can imagine The 90s in russia make the great depression the united states look like look like good times The country was devastated life expectancy fell by double digits russia lost over two million people to death of the deaths of despair migratory flight brain drain and hunger while the economists who were recommended by the united states By the u.s. State department wreaked havoc on the russian economy america also supported the chitchat and separatist rebels Factions in an ongoing conflict with russia. These are the same freedom fighters who made mass terror attacks deep inside of Of russian mainland in the budos hostage crisis the piramisque and calisar terrorist attacks The dubrovka theater hostage incident as well as the more well known mislaw and tragedy In each one of these events hundreds of russian citizens were taken hostage and hundreds more died Putin comes to power on 2000 and promises to bring order to the to the chaos of the 90s He dealt swiftly and decisively with the oligarchs and organized crime He reformed the tax code and rebooted the russian economy Regardless of the ongoing conflict with the chitchans supported by the by the usa Putin was the first foreign leader to call george w. Bush after the terror attacks of 9 11 and offer support He made good on that offer the beginning of the u.s. Invasion of gannistan Where he offered support as well as use of russian military bases in the area This olive branch would be rebuffed by bush era policies that would simply be a continuation of clinton era military escalation russia's began to see then and now continue to see Putin is the only thing that stands between them and the rapacious appetites of wild west bankers and marauding hordes of western sponsored murderous terrorists The real turning point though in modern u.s. And russian relations happened in 2008 The book rest declaration a set of resolutions concluding that the then nato conference Said that nato was willing and waiting to accept georgia and ukraine into membership 2008 william berms the current cia director was the u.s. Ambassador in russia in general of that year he met with the There we go My partner will now elaborate more So take it away connor okay Neither russia nor the russians are the enemies of the american people But the foreign policy establishment led by the neoconservatives at the end of the cold war Sees what they call their unipolar moment at the end of history to dominate the globe militarily politically and otherwise The policies which they have enacted have systematically brought us to the brinksmanship we experienced today Bill clinton and a quest for polish votes in the midwest and new markets for lockheed martin expanded nato This was fervently opposed by clinton's own pentagon chief at the time and the most respected foreign policy so-called graybeards among the Led among the men who led the previous cold war to name a few george kennan robert mac namara pal nitsa ambassador jack matlock Brent scowcroft robert gates Jean kerpatrick sam nun daniel patrick mornehan bill bradley and john warner susan eisenhower And 50 of america's most acclaimed foreign policy leaders including some of the above sign an open letter urging bill Not to go through with the planned nato expansion Since then both parties have continued both american political parties have escalated a persistently hostile anti russian foreign policy This began with nato expanding in 1999 to include hungary poland in the check republic Under clinton the us and nato waged an illegal war in kosovo against russia's allies the serbs The war was based on lies and began the new cold war We are hopelessly enmeshed in today thousands of people were killed the us bombed the chinese embassy in belgrade And nato supreme ally commander wesley clark nearly started world war three When he demanded russian forces occupying the pristina airport be bombed as well It has also set the precedents that have been invoked by president vladimir putin on more than one occasion Both when he annexed crimea in 2014 and when he began this current invasion After the september 11th attacks george w bush deliberately blew an opportunity for reproach reproach mont with putin acting on the advice of people like joe john bolton He tore up the anti ballistic missile treaty after it had held for 30 years and announced the us is moving defensive missiles to poland And radar to the check republic part of the bush policy was to place ages to shore systems at the Anti ballistic missile sites in romania and poland these anti missile missiles are fired from dual use launchers Which can also be retrofit with tomahawk cruise missiles that can launch Excuse me h bombs hydrogen bombs now the abm themselves whether they work or not began a new arms race But these launchers meant the us were sneaking medium-range missiles back into europe less than 20 years after the inf Treaty was signed roughly a decade after bush left office putin announced a whole new generation of nuclear weapons russia had developed And made it plausible that the us had completely lost this competition Though barack obama dung trump and joe biden have committed the us to a 30-year plan with an estimated cost of multiple trillions of dollars Now to revamp and modernize america's nuclear arsenal bush expanded nato to russia's borders Including uh bringing in slavakia, slovenia, romania, bulgaria, lithowania, latin, estonia Bush also promised nato membership to ukraine and georgia at the all-important bulgaria summit in april 2008 by july The us was conducting massive drills in georgia named immediate response and in august tbilisi had launched a war against russia in south ossetia attacking peacekeepers there on an eu broker deal Since 2008 two more wars in ukraine have been caused by bush's ill-advised declaration Which was staunchly opposed by paris and berlin obama ruined his own reset with russia He condom made a chomp out of dmitry medvedev at the u.n. Security council and lied about the west intentions in libya This practically guaranteed putin's return to the presidency when it was possible. He was even considering retirement obama also expanded nato further into the balkans over through the government ukraine Since cia pair of militaries to ukraine on an advisory mission to the front line in the donbas He had the cia training militants at a secret base in the united states They had deployed special forces to train Kiev's military although he chose not to arm ukraine obama set the stage for the current war obama also began the trend of diplomatic expulsions and earnest which was worsened by trump and biden Trump ripped up the inf treaty the intermediate nuclear forces treaty intermediate ranger nuclear forces treaty and the open skies treaty He expanded nato bringing in montenegro and mastodonia He also beat up the us presence in the baltic and black seas often sending warships to these waters He sent frigates to the baltic sea armed with medium-range cruise missiles Which reduced first strike warnings pushing us closer to brinkmanship and under trump more troops and weapons and equipment Were sent to the poland and the baltics There were myriad nato exercises off russia's borders as well He armed ukraine trump escalated far beyond the obama policy and bragged about it sending javelin anti tank missiles armed boats rocket launchers sniper rifles and morty kiev These weapons were sent to a government that had already launched a war against its own people Killing thousands biden picked up where they left off and led some of the largest military exercises in eastern europe since the cold war refused to recognize russian sovereignty and Crimea Further armed ukraine and drastically deteriorated relations with moscow leading to today's devastating war in ukraine All right, that looks like it ends the open uh the opening discuss uh statement So i'm gonna go ahead and just let everybody know especially if it's their first time here at modern day debates We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics And we want you to feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from And if you have a question or comment for one of tonight's debaters fire into the old live chat And be sure to tag me at modern day debates super chats will go to the top of the list and remember that tonight's uh Super chats will 100 of the revenue will go to uh research for crutchfield yacob syndrome So please uh feel free to send as many super chats and super stickers as you'd like And they will of course go to the top of the list and all we ask is that you keep it civil Attack the argument and not the person as insults will not be read that goes for the general discourse in the live chat As well our invaluable moderators are working tirelessly to elevate the conversation So please show them the debaters and each other the respect that they deserve and not a hurl insults and attacks at each other Our guests are linked in the description below and whether you're listening on youtube or via the podcast So be sure to hit the like button subscribe We have plenty more debates coming your way and with that I'm going to go ahead and kick it to dylan as he is going to be taking over and uh Taking charge of this for the open discussion portion. So dylan the floor is all yours Hi, I'm having a A little bit of connection issues. So if there's any problems, I'm sure cats can pick up for me, but Uh, despite uh, despite that, um, I'm going to just open it this way Does anybody want to start us off and we'll just I want there. I would love to start light yet Okay, destiny, uh start us off. Okay. So just I just want to ask like a random question. I guess, um there's like two Two broad claims that I find are made when we talk about Western aggression and the people that talk about western aggression. So on one hand people will say things like NATO expansion is the reason why russia is feeling the need to Uh invade ukraine or to you know, establish breakaway states or whatever But then in the next breath, I always hear people talk about like the school of realism when it comes to analyzing foreign affairs So i'm curious for both of you Let's say that NATO membership was not on the table whatsoever But let's say that in uh in a post janikovic ukraine where ukraine is saying we don't want the russian trade deals We want the european union trade deals and maybe in the future Maybe we can even join the eu if we are to believe like a realist would that stronger nations exert control and influence over smaller nations Wouldn't russia have tried to invade ukraine anyway turn them into another Belarus like even without NATO expansion could isn't that still plausible that that would have happened I'll take that real quick. Um, I think that you know many many alternative universes or alternative realities are plausible in any case, um, but the question here is What are the western countries doing? To make that less plausible or to live in peaceful coexistence with for instance Russia so russia has been attempting I think we have a pretty good track record established In eastern europe over the last, you know, 20 years that they're mostly interested in peaceful coexistence with their european neighbors The red line, I think the part portion of my opening statement that I did not get to In 2008 was that it was made very clear to the state department via the What's called the nyet means nyet memo that inclusion of georgian ukraine into nato was a Flagrant red line for russian security interests. So Would russia want to exert? Influence over smaller nations nearby. Yes, of course Just like we would like to you know, the united states would like to exert influence over smaller nations in its own neighborhood Would that have participated precipitated an invasion? I don't think so because military powers military expansion is Met with military expansion economic expansion is met with economic expansion in retaliatory scenarios I guess your points would be more salient if russia wasn't already engaging Or having been engaged for decades in aggressive military Expansion which is general fucker around his borders. So we have the invasion of georgia We get we get a puppet state in trend in transnistria We have the annexation of kramia and the war in donbass Also, like let's there's adventures also in syria by vadim it put in so russia is a country that very clearly Is not interested in peaceful coexistence with its at least with its former satellite states, right? So if and I guarantee you if the Baltics weren't in nato russia would have done the they would have done a fucking donbass in the Baltics Putin is a far-right leader. He's an imperialist, of course It's a sort of drunk on this russian imperial ambitions of the past And if you don't think that just from a realist perspective that he would try to restore his the former glory of his geopolitical pole Any chance he would get then I don't if you don't believe that I don't know what to tell you and then nato is there precisely To stop this from happening to stop russian imperial ambitions from from manifesting itself as they did in in moldavia Ukraine and georgia So I don't know where you're getting this from that that that like russia is is is uh Is after peaceful coexistence in europe, which is clearly not the case Yeah, also just to back on and then you're gonna just to add on to the end of adam statement So I do agree that it's we can't really make historical counterfactuals Um, like we can't see what would have happened otherwise But like when we look at why did russia initially invade ukraine in 2014 It wasn't because of nato expansionism and it wasn't because of the west It was because of the ousting of yanukovic Right, that was like the crimian peninsula was taken as a response to that So like are we really saying that? You know where there are no nato expansion ideas on the table like with that invasion have not happened I find that really hard to believe. I think that militarily I think sevastopol in the black sea is really important to russia And I think they wanted to take that peninsula and they saw an opportunity to do so Um, I don't think that nato expansionism had anything to do with it Well, they had to deal with the ukranians, uh, the crimian peninsula. Well, the sevastopol base Was on lease. They were allowed to have up to like 25 000 troops there They had 16 000 at the time and when the coup occurred the ukrainian Forces including three former presidents advocated that the russians be evicted violently from that base So putin ordered his men To walk out of their bases and seize the crimian peninsula, which they did without bloodshed What what is The russians were to be violently evicted from the crimian peninsula. I never remember any of this happening What what is the I don't like to do like the source source of the base, but i'm almost certain that that's not true All right, give me a moment Yeah, no, but actually actually even if even if that did happen Which I don't know if it did but let's if we entertain that it did happen Then why didn't russian soldiers just like protect their own bases if they want to evict them from the basis Then let them stay in the bases Plus at that point the ukranian military was like they had 3 000 deployable troops, right and russia knew this of course This was a result of decades of systemic rot Like what could ukraine even do against 16 000 russian troops? Like heavily armed well supplied russian troops in Crimea Nothing, so the fact that russians actually came out of their military bases and took over ukrainian government buildings in Crimea is you know, it's at that point the opposition to them supposedly About to be evicted from their bases is not really the reason there, right? Like it seems like they just like really wanted to get back that historic part of their empire Again, this is the krami is kind of counterfactual that we're looking for russia has a Prime opportunity to basically annex ukraine in 2014 if they wanted to you as adam something just pointed out correctly the russian the ukranian military was in no place to pose any kind of substantial resistance to the russian army back in 2014 and so Why if they're so hell-bent on imperialistic ambitions on rebooting the soviet union on Whatever adam something's afraid of why didn't they just annex the entire country of ukraine? Then then in there think is they try and they try the answer The answer to that is they didn't try the answer to that is that they did not go that far There was a western sponsored coup in Kiev in 2014 and russia proportionally responded by seizing Crimea Because the new regime in Kiev was putting their military bases and their presence in the black sea Was was threatening that so they did not try to annex Crimean adam something almost likely point to the donbask and lugansk wars that started in 2014 the separate separatist wars there Russia did support those militarily much like the united states supported the chichichin rebels in the 90s against russia Um, and i'm again not not justifying that but just in a real politic since they were they were destabilizing What they saw is what was becoming a hostile government to them and in 2015 when the donbask and lulugansk republics Asked to be annexed into russia russia denied them that if russia was on such a path of imperialistic expansion Why didn't they take over the ukraine in 2014? Why didn't they? Annex the dnr and the lnr in uh 2015? Very quickly. I can make one really quick request for adam. I'll let you i'm not even gonna sign out It's a really quick request if we could for this conversation Just because i'm a child if we could go like back and forth on like one or two points each that would be so nice instead of laying out so much Um Contestable stuff is what i would say i would appreciate it, but go ahead adam All right, so so the the questions are like why didn't if russia's imperial ambitions really are like sort of uh Really are the reality than why didn't russia annex a ukraine and then why didn't russia annex b donbask donbask and lulugansk So the first question why didn't russia annex ukraine? Well, they they were actually counting with the ukrainian state collapsing under Even the slightest the rest because the i mean it really didn't it wasn't obvious back then that the ukrainian statement will survive And russia was 100 percent put in was 100 percent banking on the fact that the government will will just collapse and then they'll just do The they'll they'll just give the donbask treatment to the whole country You know little peoples republics here and there and then the entire thing just falls back to russia eventually But oopsie daisy. They accidentally created a ukrainian national identity in the process Which has been suppressed for decades by soviets. So the what so the the the the donbask area is actually plan c Plan a was the whole of ukraine and then that of course wasn't about wasn't going to work plan b was the The so-called novorossiya project that's from transnistria all the way to the south coast odessa Crimea and then all the way till mario pol plaster donbas and maybe harkiv even Actually a harkiv as well that was plan b, but that didn't work either Only the east remained so that was plan c and the reason at that point the reason why didn't annex the donbask and los peoples republics Is because it was more geopolitically from a real political perspective It was far more efficacious for pukin to not annex these territories to use them as these sort of forward bases to destabilize ukraine And to keep this sort of questionable sort of contested buffer zone to eventually try and Sort of exert their influence back then federalization was was the name of the game Put in trying to try to achieve a sort of settlement where the the donbask and los peoples republics Will be will become part of ukraine Uh as in in a federal in a federation where the donbask and los regions have a veto in ukraine's foreign policy So as you can see that would have given russia Essentially control over ukraine's geopolitical course. So that was the name of the game. This is real politic That's my answer Okay, so I just I just gave oh go ahead justice No, I don't you go ahead go ahead Okay, so I just dropped in the article from the kia post and there's others too where they call to mobilize forces and to break the Harkiv pact which has that lease. I was talking about and to uh intervene now the issue with the donbask of course is you have Because of the history of the country you have hundreds of thousands of russian civilians living in the region And as justice said after they declared their independence Russia did not invade they sent in deniable clandestine forces to help them maintain their autonomy And there were attacks on the donbask a war was launched And as I said 14,000 people were killed and in the meantime the u.s. Government after overthrowing the government in Kiev After yanukovic decided not to take the eu association agreement There was uh support for that war political and otherwise And the at once trump came into office. He started arming the country and Since then it's become a major Security risk for the people in that region and it's also right on the border of russia. I'm not condoning Any kind of violence, but if this occurred in the united states say in mexico if russia had You know overthrown the government and launched a supported a war against um, you know populations there of you know americans on the border and they were preparing uh for you know a war with or even talking about um going in there and just evicting those people and killing them and reconstituting an ethnic ukraine That would be a something that the americans would object to because it would be a major violation of their security but of course this is We're sort of starting at The wrong point. I think that it's important to look at the past and see how this led. I mean again, you mentioned georgia now, unfortunately the issue is that the uh The war occurred after georgia was promised a ukranian membership by george w bush against the wishes of paris and berlin And the georgians were given military support and it's come out in reporting and in reports that They were receiving back channel assurances from people In dick cheney's orbit and they thought that they could count on american support and as just as pointed out the uh, they did Sir j. Lavrov had already told way in berns that this was a major red line and that And berns had told condolese rights that no russian politician conservative or liberal and everybody in the foreign policy establishment there From his sharp from putin sharpest liberal critics To the you know worst knuckle Most backwards knuckle draggers in the dark rhesus as the kremlin I think it's basically rhesus would ever accept this and they were concerned In ukraine for instance that a civil war would break out In the event that um the government, uh Tried to join nato and unfortunately this is What has been promised in successive regimes have attempted to do just this and um again It's in the backdrop of the war against the ethnic russians But why would a civil war break out over nato membership in ukraine? Because the country is largely divided. Uh, they're in the russian speaking regions in the south and the east These people were threatened by alternationalist forces who supported The eu membership and also have been trying to join nato this whole time If you look at people like salinsky and one of the big problems was they never gave up the promise Even when there were negotiations that could have removed that as an obstacle to peace and they never implemented them. It's two agreements that the the russians and the Germans and the french and the ukranians agreed to Yes, yes, so just just to uh Just with regards to your previous point if there was a civil war uh in ukraine If there was back then a civil war uh due to the country's nato membership Who would start the civil war against whom? Well, again the ethnic russians are being attacked this country has been Used as a way to invade moscow by western power The ukranian ultranationalists would start a civil war against the ethnic russians in ukraine if ukraine joined nato in 2014 No, they already did i'm saying that it was a threat to russia's security Okay, but how's nato is is good Yeah, just let me jump in right here. I think that the what connor's quoting is a A section from the from the nyet means knit memoir that was written by william burns in 2008 Where he said that he assessed that that might be a potential outcome. Um, i'm i'm not necessarily going to Stand here and defend that It may or may not have turned out that way and it's hard to you know understand what the then Ambassador the u.s ambassador russia thought was a potential outcome with all the resources at his disposal at that time To religate that at this moment. Who knows? I mean what what they were thinking about what he was what he was focusing on then I think it's also weird that like there's so much like hypothetical stuff from ukraine that we talk about to justify russia aggression But then we can't look at like actual russian aggression. Um, so i was curious So you you mentioned about like, um, you said that three former like ukrainian prime ministers came out to denounce the karkiv pack That the karkiv got packed or whatever like yeah three leaders came out and said it'd be a good idea to do it But when they tried this in 2013 it got shot down in the ukrainian parliament I read the thing that you link So this wasn't on the table that ukraine was ever going to go down and retakes the vassal and kick rush out And they weren't going to renew the lease of the base Um, the idea that that was a fear because there was a news article published that like some people were saying They should do it by three people that weren't even active in parliament anymore In the uh in the verkavna or whatever like that That's just unfounded right like imagine like just imagine that justification of invading a country because a year ago A piece of legislation to not renew a base got shot down. It doesn't make any sense I I feel like you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to Try to figure out like well, maybe they invaded because of the state out of that Like we can we know exactly why that kremlin peninsula was taken And it was because yana kovic left and it was because russia was losing control of ukraine Like that's a very easy like like that's like three steps from a to b to see exactly what happened Absolutely the new government in ukraine 2014 was fielding questions of not Of not or fielding fielding ideas of not extending the leases for the bases and also evicting the russians not in the 13 but in 2014 Under the new administration under the new administration. It was an imminent threat But really quick to jump back on to Adam's point. He says let's look at you know, real politics in in ukraine about You know how how things could have possibly played out and then he says, you know Russia absolutely did want to take ukraine. They were waiting for Uh, the ukraine to fall apart. That's an interesting story that has no basis in reality or that's what they just did We have no we have no ability. We have no ability no ability to prove that you're saying This is what was in the heads of of putin or in the heads of the russia I mean on the 24th of february. They tried exactly this again, but with actual military forces directly Like I don't like I'm sorry. Have you ever used like russia in ukraine 24th of february 24th of february 2022 is not 2014 it's a different it's a different time span. It's a different. Yes A whole different russia tried with proxies, but but just just really quick just really quick Let's instead of looking at some sort of, you know ethereal theoretically let's look at the reality of the situation You know based on the russians and americans Or the the western Play in this thing as the western the united states led western world Follows a policy of encirclement of encircling russia with active military bases russia Works a little bit in territories on its border You know and who is the aggressor here? Who's expanding military operations? Yeah, what is the new aggression that is the question? That's the theory. That's the thing that we have to look at What is the NATO aggression? Like i'm curious. Let's like let's actually let's play that thought experiment real quickly What what do we think? All right destiny? When was the one time when was the one time in the nato history when article five was enacted one time? For I mean we triggered article five for 9 11. What do you mean? We triggered we triggered article five for 9 11 to invade where? Afghanistan halfway around the world completely out of our sphere of influence Potentially a war that we didn't need to have fought Hold on. I'm sorry. Do you think they're triggering all nato countries? Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no wait. Can we just one point by point? Okay, are you trying to say that russia might 9 11 us and we'll trigger article five for that? Or are you trying to say that another country might 9 11 us and we're going to article five into russia? Do you really believe that's a possibility? I'm saying that as the united states as the western world says nato is simply a um protective defensive alliance It doesn't look like that from the other side. It looks like we don't have We can look at any missions. Just wait. Let's let's engage with the point. I want to hear this I want to hear the engagement with this point. Do you really think do you personally? Do you believe that there is any chance that nato or nato forces or nato countries are going to be attacking russia? It that article five trigger So you literally you want to engage with this because you because it destroys the entire argument You know, I will absolutely engage with this. I will absolutely engage No problem. Oliver stone has an interview has his famous, you know Multi hour interviews with budin where he brings up this exact point Mr. Putin, don't you know that nato is just a jobs program for the west for the most part? It's just corporate welfare, you know, we're this is never going to be used to attack russia don't you understand that and Putin says it may be that way it may be not that way but if you're looking at it from our side as country after country gets integrated into the nato system As rocket launchers gets placed as military bases gets moved closer and closer out of order We have to look at this again in a real politic Sort of way put it on the other side What if the it wasn't the economic system of the soviet union but the economic system of The western world that collapsed in 1991 and and that the war saw packed was integrating canada and mexico And putting military bases on the united states border would would the united states with the mondro doctrine in place Ever tolerate that why we I want to add up. You can do this, but I have to repeat the question one more time You'll never get an answer from this do we really think that there is a future where nato countries We already have nukes in turkey. We already have the three countries up in the in the Baltics Like is ukraine going to be that's the domino that we invade moscow through like is that really a thing? You think is going to happen that russia going to be invaded by a nato country Why are you just saying random? I don't care. I'm just curious. Do you think that nato will any nato country will actually invade russia? I don't want to go to a news poster. Yeah, what is it? In 2008 in 2008 Russia said very clearly that the ukraine and georgia were red lines for them just like Any country has to have it's things that it's willing to tolerate and not willing to tolerate Like for the united states, you know weapons of mass destruction in iraq or whatever Um, there have to be things that they will say are you know tolerable or intolerable and But do you but do you think nato will invade russia? It's intolerable But do you think nato will invade russia? It's Yes, it's a yes or no question. We're asking for the sixth time The answer is obviously no like we literally have of course not we've got a phone set up Why are they expanding all the way up to russia's borders? Why are they doing drills? Why are they ripping up arms? Why would they do that? Why would they put dual use mistletoe in romanian poland? Why are they doing the largest military exercise is I would love to answer that. I would love to answer that. Why are they sanctioning russia? Why are they saying that they're happy? Okay, okay, please both. Thank you both. It's okay. Adam is wait. Wait. Okay. I love answering things And it's not like america is a long progressive. Is my is my mic not on can no one hear me? Okay, sorry Okay, wait Can anyone is my mic actually not working? I can't tell if it is or not. It's working. I'm just playing walking It is working. I guess I just I can tell okay So you guys were talking over each other. So I I and nobody heard anything. Okay, so this is what I'm gonna do I'm just gonna have Adam something ask the question and I'm gonna have connor respond and neither of you talk over the other Adam if you think he's not answering the question, you can just repeat it right after he finishes answering. Is that okay? Sure. Okay. Adam. What is the question? I was about to actually answer the question connor asked the question Oh, it was connor asked the question. Okay connor. Thank you. You asked the question But short in the short form He's muted Okay So what why doesn't it why does need to expand or something like that? That was the question Yeah, why are they ripping up arms treaties? Why are they constantly doing massive drills in russia's near abroad? Why did they Unilaterally and by in violation of international law attack kosovo and why Are they Promising george and ukraine nato membership when they know that that could cause a war Because the russians have said that it would be a direct threat to their security And they would be forced to decide whether to intervene particularly in ukraine ukraine has been invaded by western powers several times including You know by the nazis So why why is the Favorite because they they were promised that nato wouldn't expand. So what would they why would You have to i mean explain why they would break that promise Okay, so the your your your original question was that why does nato Why does nato keep expanding around russia and and like, you know, of course So, uh, if you look at this one from a real political perspective, of course Like why does russia invade all these other neighboring countries around it, right? There's not there's not much peace it seems in the former imperial sphere And so it makes perfect sense that countries would democratically vote to join a defensive alliance against while neighboring And an aggressive imperialist power such as russia and dude, like there's georgia. There's transnistria. There's ukraine Like shit gets fucked up around russia. Like everyone can see People i would say people with with the iq of a room temperature can see this right So if you're if you're a voter and if you're like, hmm, should i join nato or not like Huh? Well, so we have this neighbor russia, you know, it keeps keeps like fucking invading its former subjects in trying to subjugate them again I don't know. Should we should we join nato? I guess we kind of should like that's that's the response Right, that's why people voted in all these countries to join nato And if if russia perceives this as a threat by the way, that's russia's problem. Okay. I also want to add on to adam Yes, everybody. I want to add on real quick to adam too because this question gets floated a lot um this idea that like well, what if russia were to start bases around Mexico, what if russia were to create bases inside canada or cuba and they were to start staging missiles there Like that would be pretty egregious. I admit what if the united states were to try to recognize like independent regions in mexico Or canada and send fucking troops into those countries to begin civil wars in those countries with mexico or canada Like we would like the united states would have to take um like pretty unprecedented aggression against its neighbors At least in the past 30 years in order to like even begin to have a conversation about what would it look like If another country were to like come in and like set up shop in some of these countries because united states behavior Towards the countries that neighbor it are no we're near comparable to russia behavior against countries like maldova or countries like georgia or countries like ukraine And the reality is on that destiny is that the united states doesn't do it with its neighbors It's doing it halfway around the world in russia's backyard things like that like the war in syria like uh, you know the the That's not true US troops were in syria democratically elected governments in What us troops were in syria? Wait, you said what us troops are in syria the us didn't have ground forces in syria There's a small contingent of us troops there however, no it's roughly a third of the country the country is under uh sanctions israel bombs it virtually every week That's not that's not true to be comparable to what russia is doing russia has like their entire military Well, why did russia go away? They have a base that's they have a met a base on the Mediterranean there and the americans going back They didn't baited they did not do that for years It wasn't until demascus was threatened by a terrorist groups that were aligned with al qaeda in the islamic state That's what happened and it's because and you can read about it in the new york times If you want it was called operation temper sycamore and the cia and its allies were arming terrorist groups In an attempt to overthrow the government of demascus Sure, we can talk about arming terrorist groups in the united states almost certainly fun No, but then they went into the country and carpet bombs cities And now they occupy a third of the country and it's still undersigned United states occupies a third a third of syria right now. Yes But roughly a third What who do you think controls the oil in syria? I don't know American And their Kurdish allies it is my oh wait all the Kurds that the trump threw through another bus right the trump Broke up all the recent relationships with right after like do i'm saying that they're still there I'm i'm i'm that's it. Look. I mean turkey. Yes. Is it got a lot of problems there a natal member And yes, they're acting aggressively in syria The russia invaded fucking syria to prop up Assad right before he would fall And then why why carpet carpet bomb? Yeah, because because Assad is a is a useful idiot is a dictator who's who will then be turned property Actually syria under Assad the dictatorship It's Saudi Arabia was uh attacked like that I don't fuck. I don't fucking care. We're talking about in this case. I guess well, that's the problem adam That's exactly the problem saying that I don't have I don't have genocide in Yemen because syria doesn't like the houthis Saying that I don't ever care about what saying what I don't even care about what, uh, With the united states in the context in the context of exactly comparable situations in exactly comparable situations Yeah, is exactly this problem. We're talking about having you're right. You're right We're clarified and I should have clarified in this specific debate. I don't care about that because that's not what we're talking about right Why not because this is wait a minute So the u.s. Can kill hundreds of thousands of people in Yemen because this is a what aboutism is what you're doing No, it's not what about is I want to clarify. Hold on. Yes, we can be critical of the actions of plenty of you brought up russia's interventionist Syria, I believe it relatively early in this congress. We can we get it is okay to criticize Even the actions of the united states, okay, but to try to say that the actions of the united states are the same as russia here Is just not okay. No, no, no, no The american government has been responsible for much more killing My lifetime then russia has okay, okay, so You're too you're yelling over each other. We're gonna have destiny say You really want to compare the death connor connor Okay, yeah, we're not talking about death tolls. This is like a two-year-old's why not I'll explain if you let me finish my sentence. Okay death tolls is not what we talk about when we're trying to figure out like You know, is is a how about aggressive wars? Okay, how about the concept of invading a country and trying to Territory So what parts of like iraq and afghanistan or syria or libya has the united states broken off and and have like No, they just killed they just killed exactly My hundreds of thousands of people Is part of a regime change. Okay, so This is what we're gonna do because it happens every single time. We're gonna different. You can kill as many people as you want Okay, this is what we're gonna do So both of you are just yelling over each other and nobody can hear anything. Wait, look at cosy and so Okay, so both of you are just yelling and nobody can hear anything So what we're going to do is we're going to have destiny says say what he wants to say and then we're gonna have connor Say what he wants to say in response to that. Okay, and neither of you are gonna say anything while the other person is talking Okay, destiny you go first Okay, hopefully I can finish my statement Okay, if like if you are on this panel expecting either me or adam to defend The u.s. Invasion of iraq or the u.s. Occupation of afghanistan for 7 000 years I don't think either of us are gonna do that I think that there is plenty of criticism fairly there to go around for the united states government for a foreign policy However to try to say that the united states made this mistake Therefore russia ought to be allowed to do the same thing or that i didn't say that are you fucking serious No, i'm not justifying where russia's doing i'm saying that I'm not gonna be able to finish Okay, what russia is doing is unique and that russia is sending their armed forces To another country in order to one seize territory like they did with the crimian peninsula To annex it and take it as their own and then two to break off parts of the country So that they can be independent states that they have a permanent peacekeeping presence in like like they did with abkhazia and south odesia and georgia like they did with transnistria and meldova These are not things that the united states does now if you want to be critical of us involvement in place like in iraq and afghanistan That's fine I'm pretty sure every single person in this call would share with your criticisms But to say that one it's the same as what russia is doing is false and two to use it to justify russia's aggression is ignorant That's my well. I'm not using it to justify Aggression i'm saying that there is a pattern here where there are responses both russia and the united states are are Governments that are led by men who are willing to wage wars and do things that none of us would do So knowing that and knowing that they are the two largest nuclear superpowers Why would you support a policy that makes it much more likely that they'll come to Uh fight each other which is actually what's happening right now. I mean look at look look you don't have to defend what the russians are doing but they're talking about Uh defending themselves With nuclear weapons nato talks. I'm excuse me the u.s. Talks constantly about how they're and they are they're defending ukraine helping them kill russians Uh, you're talking about that was a brick breaking your changing borders So real quick to jump in on destiny's point mr. Connor just real quick here to jump in on destiny's point I'd like to jump in here for half a second is that he says that you know America the united states the west doesn't do things like russia does they don't break away pieces of countries They know they full fledged invade annihilate other people's armies overthrow their regimes And occupy for them for 20 years. They don't ask them to america. Sure They set up puppet democracies that have absolutely no will to rule outside of their western puppet masters So to say that that you know russia is way worse in this context than the west There's just no like the step to stand on but again like connor said we're not defending russia's actions in ukraine what we're saying is Take a look in the mirror and see that bombing country after country overthrowing country after country talking about regime change in Uh, the so the former soviet countries and actually talking about regime change in moscow funding non-government organizations that are focused on doing things like that is behavior that antagonizes and causes escalation conflicts like what we see in the ukraine and to not be able to see that Is to not be able to see past the end of your own nose With this you're kind of actually stripping away agency from russians and putin Because what we're implying here is that you know what the west does you know russia russia is like It's like a cornered animal without with no sort of a any any thinking skills that they're just gonna instinctively respond to what the west does so the only says completely on the west and and russia's behavior and putin's behavior will depend entirely on on what the west does this is incorrect You you brought up the i think connor brought up the the the the the nuclear nuclear weapons point Currently look russia it was current russia is currently the first one to threaten nukes and the last one NATO and and biden's response has unilaterally been do look look just Restrained it's very responsible. Don't say that. No. No. No, and then putin's like hey, by the way We have this brand new icbm. Huh? We just tested it. Hey, by the way You know, uh, you the western support to ukraine threatens nuclear war You know if you don't want nuclear war, then perhaps you should perhaps, you know Then perhaps believe it putin should stop threatening with fucking nukes, right? It's the same thing the same thing with with the with uh With the war in european peace, right? If you if you don't want war if you want peace Well, then well, we can talk, you know for five hours about what the west could do or russia could just pull out a fucking ukraine Right. So the reason why russians are dying In ukraine is because russians are in fucking ukraine, right? Like this is just I feel like we're talking next to like talking past each other in this a bit, but Adam i'll respond to your point right now. Um, the The the whole idea that my position or our position my position in particular our position in general Is denying russian some kind of agency is ridiculous on its face because uh, if we were talking to a russian audience If I was talking to a russian audience, I would be saying look this war is completely unjustified Here's the reasons and here's what we should have been doing otherwise What what I actually already have done on my youtube channel and you know, so far so good The fsb hasn't showed up for me. That's wonderful. Um, but when I'm talking to an american audience What we're looking at is what are what is the west's policies that that that are responsible or have led to this Not that we're denying agency in russia russia should not have invaded ukraine That's how we started this debate shouldn't have done it But if we can't see that Unilaterally getting out of nuclear nonproliferation treaties unilaterally Extending the borders of our military influence in eastern european and former soviet countries that these kinds of actions Aren't antagonistic to the local power, which is russia in that neighborhood is Yes, okay, so so one point at a time So, uh, the a major recurring point that I see here is that is that nato sort of expanding around russia is somehow a threat to russia This this is not true What goes on in the inside those sovereign countries borders is those sovereign countries business Just like how when russia brings its military next to ukraine's borders and you know, just like has them there for months According to syga love it. It is russia's business. What russia is allowed to do inside russian borders. Same thing NATO countries or like a prospective nato member states even it is completely their business what they what they can and can't do within their borders Implying otherwise would be huge huge hypocrisy Unless your unless your actual point here is to is to downplay Russia's wrongdoings and sort of overplay the west So what countries do inside of their own borders? I agree with you is largely up to those countries However, it's completely up to these countries No, not completely. There are externalities just like for instance defender 2020 One and the the large-scale nato exercise inside of ukraine that look like Buildup and to which russia responds with buildup on ukrainian borders. So you have to do do you think they're One question one question adam real quick. Go ahead. Go ahead missiles in kuba is putting missiles in kuba in the 60s Is that just you know everything? It's it's just people inside their own borders doing stuff like no, of course not Things that you do inside of your own country or inside of the countries of your allies have externalities and to not admit that is to have an autistic vision of the world Okay, so that was the direct that was a question directed towards adam something So I want adam something to respond right because it was directed towards adam Sure. So if we talk about nukes, that's it's absolutely a different question. I agree with you However, putting troops into within a country's border. So we're not talking about nuclear forces. Just regular troops. That is Of course a different kind of animal, right? So what if if a country decides to once again join nato, they're free to do so and even if and if uh, if nato nato allies decide to have a military exercise inside ukrainian borders I mean, that's that's also fine. And so in your world Then then then Based on what you said, you must believe that russia Russia had seriously thought that there was a realistic risk of nato invading russia, right? If they were really so afraid of the exercises within ukraine The nato exercises which then triggered their force build up like if they if russia would if if if we even put in thought that you know nato Uh, like if you thought or like if you thought that there was no chance of of nato invading russia Then they wouldn't use this as a justification for russia's to build up on the border if you're following me So I'd like to work with adam and then i'll kick it over and i'll kick it over to connor and destiny And i'll and i'll show up because i'm i'm i know i'm taking a little bit too much air time here But here's the deal russia. I do not believe that russia legitimately believes that nato in its current construction will invade Russia that's absurd on its face. No russian politician actually thinks that the reality is that russia understands what unstable governments Happen when the so-unit collapsed it immediately immediately made small countries large nuclear powers like ukraine and kazakhstan for instance, and there was an entire Period of time in the in the early nineties, especially when we were like are we going to have new Nuclear war between small countries because they have been armed by the the militaristic expansion of the soviet union russia looks at that and says People's in europe problems in europe if there's military bases all along the russian border Who knows what happens around the so the idea of geopolitics of looking into the future is saying Not what would be done exactly today under the current construction of things But what could be done with these tools in the near to The the the near future the now 10 years down the road 15 years down the road And that is something that they are responsible to doing just like Putting missiles in cuba just like You know for instance the build-up of the german army on the polish border All of these things are legitimate security concerns and again not to see that is the prerogative is the how to say the The the the great prerogative of the west which are in special of america Which sits atop of the geopolitical order at the moment to not take into consideration These the legitimate security concerns of lustre powers is our prerogative and we do so at our peril Sure, and that's why ukraine relinquished nuclear weapons in exchange for its territorial integrity guaranteed by russia and we see What that amounted to so okay, we're going to throw it over the collar Absolutely, just like libya in the united states Connor Has there ever been a history Sorry, I threw it over to connor cheese gotta cut you. Sorry connor Okay, uh the u.s Uh routinely particularly under trump and it continued under biden fly strategic bombers within less than 13 miles of the russian coast in the black and baltic sea They have placed Frigates and other warships in the black sea in the baltic sea that carry nuclear weapons okay, um The also the discover, you know When the schultz government came to power before the war started There was a question about whether or not these co that the new coalition would be willing to continue to host american nuclear weapons And stoltenberg said that if they decided not to he would deploy them further east to eastern europe countries That are in nato So this i mean when you say nuclear war is unthinkable The americans or the british or the french would see it very differently If somebody else was doing these same things to them and we know that because of the history of the cuban missile prices and i mean I mean i would just i mean and also again if you're talking about ukraine That you know again overthrowing governments is also illegal and if you're talking about You know again, that's what i mean i don't understand So if the americans do that and then they and also of course When you say that ukraine the idea that ukraine People say ukraine won't join nato. Why should the russians believe that if if they perceive a security threat here And let's say hypothetically ukraine does did eventually join nato and they were attacked. What would they be able to do? You know it's it's it's it's if this If the shoe was on the other foot Um, I think you would see things quite differently and again not defending russia But why do this if there is a nuclear war if Putin's an absolute madman Then why provoke him and the russian people like this if a nuclear war happens? Are you just even though we agree that it's that would be horrible? I mean are you going to rest assured that you were correct that that moscow is is uh, Or is run by an evil right way to say right wing dictator if that's the case then why provoke them like this Why yes? Yeah, but then why okay That's why do this and you could also argue that people like, you know, george w. Bush is I can I can I can answer this very quickly Sure, I can answer this very quickly. So what you're advocating for here is appeasement, right? So, you know, not appeasement I'm saying yes it is Let me let me let me answer please i'll explain i'll explain i swear So uh, so uh following your logic, you know, put in if if we are afraid that put in is a madman who might press the red button Right? It's it's unlikely. In fact, I don't think it will ever happen. But still Um, then, you know, why why are we getting involved in this? Why are we? Why are we trying to you know, stop putting? You know, otherwise, you'll just you'll just uh He'll just press the button and then and then we all we we can rest assured dying in in in like nuclear fallout That we were correct about our convictions, you know So so why why try to stop put in and risk nuclear war and why try to confront put in as he tries to sort of Uh, basically grind ukraine into nothing, right? Okay, so then what so then we have established that nuclear threats Or an instant sort of btfo button, uh for the west, right as far as putting is concerned so then what if after ukraine put in shows up at the at the uh, you know in like estonia The Baltics basically and says hey by the way, uh, just give give me back these countries I saw restore my former serious influence. Otherwise, uh red button guys. I'm about to press it. I'm going to press it So, you know, if following your logic, this this leads to an endless cycle of appeasement where we back out back out back out Um Because because we don't want to risk nuclear war, uh over, you know What like over ukraine or the Baltics look look how tiny those countries are are you fucking kidding me? Like nuclear war over a fucking estonia. Just let put you in heaven. So this is the logical consequence Well, I but this is you you didn't say that but this is the logical consequence of what you're advocating for I also think that's the case. I think it's being realistic And yeah, I think that it's not well, I mean have they I mean don't you I mean Don't you think that uh, this is unnecessarily provocative? I mean, why do that? Why carry out this? Everybody does military exercises russia. No, no the russians do not do the equivalent of to the americans Literally did the united in february was literally scrambling jets as fucking russia is like flying Like military bombers and shit like off of the coast of fucking scottland like this Just just just two days ago. Just two days ago. Is there just two days ago russian jets violate actually violated swedish airspace So, yeah, and I mean russian jets have violated turkish airspace On the way to syria, like china does military exercises north korea Miles, I mean it poses any effect. They've already said that they're going to deploy We should probably let destiny finish. He was waiting very long to say his point people Yeah, people do military exercises all the time. Okay, probably so that they don't end up in a situation I specifically said we should let destiny probably so that their military doesn't end up completely Antiquated and unable to do anything like what happened when russia attempted to invade ukraine And has failed miserably to make the kind of progress they wanted to people do military exercise all the time We can't say that we can't do military exercises because if we do we might provoke one country to invade another What you're talking about is absolutely appeasement like I'll ask this question a million times And I'll never get a Straight answer Do we ever see a situation where nato is invading russia or retrospectively has there ever been a situation ever Where nato troops have fired on russian troops? Like this doesn't happen You can't you can't fabricate this hypothetical security concern and then use that as a foundation for invading a country Because you think that there might be some kind of construction of nato in the future that might possibly represent A threat to russia that is unique with ukraine joining nato even though we've already got the Baltics Even though we've already got turkey like it just doesn't make sense We're on so many levels of abstraction here to invade the very real occupation of a country that it totally betrays ukraine's right to have its own sovereignty and its own security interests Okay, so again the cuban missile crisis kennedy threatened to Essentially burn the world down now again with nato They are backing forces in ukraine. Whether you think it's right or not that are that where russian troops are dying And yes, ukranians are dying too So, I mean, why why would you you're threatening at what point does it become not? uh wise to push this issue so much with a power that has 6 000 nuclear weapons And has feels encircled and threatened and willing to launch this kind of invasion when they knew the consequences What would happen why why do that now? Why do the americans seem to want to see why do certain nato member states? This has come out in washington post and elsewhere Why do they want the war to continue and not end too soon? Okay, so wait connor so so let let me get it straight russia the biggest single nuclear nuclear power on the planet feels threatened and unsafe and cornered Yeah, they've been they've been encircled with nato countries and military equipment and bases and bombers and missiles and troops So I I like it. I like it when I like it that that that when this comes up Then then then then then like russia's russia's nuclear arsenal suddenly doesn't matter at all right Otherwise, but but but when it comes to ukraine when it comes to us protecting ukraine There is like oh wait, dude, dude, like russia russia has nukes and you know, russia has nukes has it means nuclear weapons There's like those are nukes and then but when it comes to like, you know, oh russia is feeling threatened It's cornered like once again stripping russia of its agency i'm not saying that i'm saying that they have the Then suddenly suddenly there's suddenly Then suddenly we forget about the nukes Huh, I haven't forgotten the nukes at all. Something can we just admit that no nato country is ever invading russia? It's not going to happen. Oh, there's no reason to believe that What so why if they were? Yeah, go ahead. Okay mutually if the uh powers Look if the regime in washington was really concerned about mutually assured destruction Which I hope a lot of them still are they would not have launched this war where they're trying to literally Isolate weaken and cripple russia in a proxy war We haven't launched the u.s. Didn't imagine If the country becomes destabilized and impoverished and they are field They do feel they're pushed into a corner and they do feel like they have to defend themselves They have made this clear that they will do that so why don't think that's what Against being attacked. Well, who's attacking them? Well up until I mean again, do you had uh Who's attacking them? No one's attacking russia. That's the point russia. Who who's attacking russia connor? Who's attacking russia? Imagine if when the americans invaded iraq. No, no russia now Don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't give me ira. Don't give me afghanistan. Who's invading russia now? Who's it? Who's threatening? We don't even attack russian troops when they're not in russia There's Okay, to your point They're not invading russia because of mutual leaders or destruction, but they are They have started a conflict now where there is This was look kudin invaded ukraine. No one's questioning that but this came after 30 years of nato expansion eight years after the government in ukraine was overthrown and then turned into a nato outpost They are acting to prevent ukraine from being bought into nato and from a threat what they view as a threat to their security rightly or wrongly I think you could make the argument that with the constant military exercises look ask How do you how do you think the russian people perceive all of this wait wait wait? Okay, so why is ukraine joining nato a threat to russia the single biggest nuclear power on the planet? Because ukraine has been used as a way to invade russia for centuries We can't we we speak about what the security in europe We have to be smart and we have to talk about it from 91 to today You can't compare an invasion of russia from 200 years ago to today Well, my history is really bad, but I don't think we had nuclear weapons 200 years ago The general way that army's function around the world was completely totally different Again, when you say well russia was invaded through uh ukraine in the past That's true because of the geography that's not going to happen today And you would well you haven't admit as much, but I think any reasonable person would admit as much If we wanted to invade russia, we wouldn't be thinking like well, jesus like we're we don't have ukraine as part of nato I guess we can't do it like They're in a proxies with russia completely right destiny is absolutely Destiny is absolutely correct when he says that we need to take into consideration the history from 1991 to today What happened in the 90s in the russian um Foreign policy the united states supported the chetchen breakaway rebels who did massive Incursions into russia took hundreds of people hostages on four different occasions Killed hundreds of russian citizens and we're like, you know what? We're the good guys. Don't worry. It's all good We you can we can have outposts on your borders and nothing will go wrong The people that we decide to support invade your country kill your children like in beslan and you know what? It's fine. Don't worry. We're the good guys. Everything is fine My understanding is that that chetchen there was never any foreign us support for for any of that the civil war stuff That was going on in russia. Is that actually is that a thing? Like yes Absolutely A met with a leader and talked or were there actual are there were no us troops there were the actual arms or anything Transport or was it just like? There was cia backing And saudi arabia's back Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah, by the way, so but like hey guys Just one second. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait The the question was asked what it was then he said cia the new was objection I think he should be able to clarify what he meant by cia. He's a firefighter. It's nothing. That's what he meant to say Connor could you do you want to clarify what you meant by the cia? There is uh There was a congressional task force launch that indicated from and there have been various intelligence sources that have said that that was the case And the americans were also supporting the russians fighting the chetchens at the time. It's a very uh Sorted history, but there's several sources if you want to check it check it out I wonder I wonder what I wonder why the chetchens were kind of upset at russians though Imagine defending russia and i come right No, i'm not defending them. I'm saying this was provocative Yeah, okay, so but but dude like if if if okay We had one terror attack on i11 in the united states that then launched a 20 year war in afghanistan Where we turned where we turned that country over again and again and again Imagine if mexico with the support of russia had invaded texas And taken hundreds of people hostages on four different occasions over the course of 10 years This is not an allergist hundreds and hundreds of people had died It would be analogous and it is a good counterfactual to think about this is what we're trying to say uh adam Is that if you do not Try to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. You are destined to repeat the errors of history Okay, so this is not not not analogous because okay, can you answer me this question? How come chechnya was inside like russian slash slavic borders? How come they got ended up there? Are we going back before 91 are we going back before 91 and talking about the And the imperialist russian history Are we going back to soviet era adam and talking about that or we're talking about from 31 Because if we're going back to the soviet era adam adam if we're going back to the soviet era Remember that the united kingdoms the united kingdom japan and america invaded russia There was a us Okay, wait, wait, okay, uh cas don't don't mute justice I was telling adam to quiet down because adam asked the question. I want just to be able to finish responding Did my response get mutilated Yeah, accidentally. So could you can you uh, all right, so one more time if we're going back to If we're going back to the soviet era, uh history here and we're not Restraining ourselves to 1991 and from then on Let's talk about that the united kingdom japan and america invade post saras russia And the united states has a military basis as deep into russia as central syberia Krasniersk, which is analogous to russia having had military bases in the 20th century in Denver like this is insanity. We don't want to go down this road Uh, dude, uh, yes, I don't think you I don't think you want to go down this road because like for example in the second world war The u.s. Gave massive support to the soviets against the nazis so I So there isn't such a clear antagonism between soviet russia and america like the the way you think But anyway, the reason why I ask a question about about the chechnya The reason why chechens were kind of kind of up idiot russians is because of course chechens are also victims of russian imperialism And uh, of course, we have all seen We have all seen what happened to the chechens. Of course drosny was fucking level just like moriupol Just like just like essentially raised to the ground of everyone's fucking murdered there Of course chechens the chechens chechens rebels did have support Internationally early on in the conflict But as their methods got more brutal and brutal that's international support evaporated over time Um, but otherwise this this doesn't of course excuse, uh, russia's, uh, sort of essentially genociding of the chechen peoples And then appointing fucking, uh, kadirov as as as a emperor supreme of modern-day chechnya so This is why this is this is this is why it's also the result of russian imperial action Which has a very long and very rich history They've looked they've always been doing this they've been doing this for fucking hundreds of years And the same thing with ukraine simply georgia Same thing with the chechens back then same thing with the politics, you know It's just this this continuation of this one big russian imperial project. It's very aggressive It's ethno nationalist by the way The reason the reason why all these satellite states have russian minorities is because they were fucking forcibly forcibly Moved in there settling there and the local population was essentially culturally genocided That's why that's why bill russia is at this point is basically 99 percent russian If there used to be a bill russian language, there used to be a bill russian culture It has been systemically eradicated by soviets as far as i think russia's in eastern ukraine as well Yeah, exactly. Exactly. More than hundreds of thousands of russians living in. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So If we're gonna go back to the 1800s and talk about russian imperialism Let's go back to the 1800s and talk about western imperialism I don't think that that is very productive for this conversation But I am glad that you brought up the western support for the soviet union against the fascists in world war two Which of course is an undeniable historical fact Which makes it even more ironic and strange Which makes it even more ironic and strange that the united states in the west is now supporting the ukrainian government Who has serious nazi sympathizers and serious fascist problems in its coalition That that is governing coalition right now nazi that's a justification for war, but it is ironic justice Dude, you did not want to get into this, but okay fine So russia is current like ukraine is currently headed by of course a jewish president russian native speaker as we all know The ukrainian jewish community is is supporting him and is anti russian at this point Of course the the ukrainian far right Like a one one seat out of 450 in the ukrainian parliament Also, if we if we want to if we really want to talk about sort of nazi influences, of course The Wagner Wagner group and and all all the other paramilitaries in philip russia are very lately very in the far right far writers and nazis also back during the day even even during the heroic days of of of the Of the of the great patriotic war as russian scotland the second world war You know people people back in the day were trying were being demoted or fired from from the government because Being too jewish that was a time when the the russian government was trying to rub up to hitler's germany And i have a quote here because i knew this would come up let's see when Stalin replaced litvinov with mulatov because the former was too jewish And i quote the soviet government intended to improve its relations with hitler and if possible sign a pact with nazi germany As a jew and an evolved opponent of such policy litvinov stood in the way and so Stalin got rid of him so the soviet union and also today's russia has a Really rich history of cooperating with nazis whereas ukraine seems to be the has a huge jewish population It seems to be the least anti-semitic country in europe Based on statistics, so you can so you can gesture at the far writers in ukraine And this has this has been going on since by the way since fucking 2014 But it doesn't make it, you know any more true than it is. Yeah, which is to say it's not adam Knowing that some of your your own influences that you claim as influences on you Like shan or triple arrow, which i'm i'm glad for that You should not make the argument that ukraine has a jewish president. Therefore they can't be not these it's ridiculous because You know having followed the channels that i just that i just noted that one of the greatest How to say one of the key arguments of holocaust deniers Is that well, you know, there were jewish people serving in the nazi army. Well, you know, there was entire jewish battalions in the nazi army, so That i i agree i seriously seriously seriously infantile argument to make and and i agree with you And i agree with you that because of course if i if i only base my argument on like oh Hey, look, you know, you you you you couldn't can be far right? Look, you know zanowski is jewish, so this would be like me saying oh look There's no racism in america obama is black, you know, yeah However, uh, if i didn't i didn't just Notice how i didn't just base my argument on like hey, look jewish president btfo got him no There's a whole range of other factors that i brought out Zalinsky being a russian native speaker jewish president is just being one of them, right? Also this also i don't think you you want to bring this up that much because uh, sergiy loverov just came out and said that Said that, you know, uh, you know, even though zalinsky is jewish, you know Hitler also had some joy in him. So, you know, that's why zalinsky is an answer something to that effect So careful with what you say because the chances are like russian propaganda has already tried to Bullshit its way into our Zygast with it. So also piggyback piggyback on enemies like Thank you when we talk about like they're being like a ton of far-right presence in ukraine This is literally the most concealed far-right presence of any country in the entire world, right? ukraine was the only country in the world besides israel to have a jewish head of state and jewish prime minister at the Same time the far-right party the swabota one that adam mentions they have one seat in parliament They have like 15,000 members across like a 40 plus million population country And if you really want to make claims like this there is so much far-right fascist stuff that exists within russian borders in a country That's like authoritative like authoritatively Authoritarianly controlled that has to run like at the behest of it when you talk about like the Wagner group Nobody seems to bring that up when you talk about the russian imperial movement that literally sponsors foreign terrorists that have done attacks in other countries Like sweden the idea that if you really truly care about some fascist or far-right element existing And then you've got to go to like ukraine and get a fucking magnifying glass out to find out like Which one of like 900 people might have like an ss tattoo on them and say look you've got a huge problem in ukraine When every single military in the world probably has like some far-right people in it I think um, I think it overplays like any fascist element that exists in ukraine And I think it underplays dramatically any fascist or far-right element that exists in russia It's just a simple Response to adam and destiny real quick here response to adam and destiny real quick here um, first of all claiming that zelenski is jewish and talking about the you know jewish influence here is again, it's you know, uh It's it's it's smokin mirrors and of course i'm not saying that that's the only thing that that's the only thing you said You also said well the soviet union were also Racists and the current russian also have fascist elements and to that i would say russia fought a devastating war against fascism and they learned their lesson and they've been trying very systematically Ever since then to not go back to to not have anything to do with fascist Ideologies in their country are there fascists in? Russia are there fascist groups? Yes to compare them to the problems that they're that we have with fascist groups in ukraine is absurd Why did mince to not get implemented zelenski goes to the dnr in the lnr? Frontlines and says guys do his do his Azov brigade and the different fascist militias that are actually The spearhead of that fight and says we need to implement mince to we agreed to it It's a good thing good for zelenski. He's doing the right thing and his fascist war dogs said Basically pound dirt. We are going to retake these these These territories we're going to push the russians out. We're going to we're going to reassert our influence over this and Kiev has nothing to say to us about that. He's if you can show me A far-right fascist military group in russia that has thousands of members and is fostering an on war In its borderlands. I'll agree with you. Otherwise walk walk walk walk no group walk no group is in ukraine By the way, and then also real quick when we talk about like the fascism between russia and ukraine isn't comparable I do agree with that Russia undeniably operates like as a fascist country I don't see ukraine doing it like when you're literally making the arguments that there is an ethnic people that exist in another country So I need to go into that country to defend them violently and break away states that is pretty fascist You like you have your authoritarianism. You've got your ultranationalism and you're using it with ethnic like roots Like I don't know how much more fascist you could possibly get and the everybody always cites like the minsk agreements in terms of like the They didn't work. They did work at different times sides get blamed on it I have never seen anybody incredibly talk about these agreements being implemented and actually working appropriately Like the fighting constantly raged on nobody had any idea Like they argued both sides about what was going to happen with the doness international airport that um dpr themselves Literally said it like, ah, you know what fuck that we're still going to fight here You know you guys to do the rest of the stuff. Um, ukraine wasn't happy Obviously with the outcome of that the idea that there was like one side that was consistently breaking these agreements It's just not true Like these were a shit show from the start to the end The the second accords had the same problem with the first and I don't think you can point to like the collapse of these Agreements as just like Zelensky being war hungry over what was going on as Zelensky wasn't Pointing to the collapse of the minsk two agreements not as Zelensky being war hungry He wasn't but of him not having control over his far-right militias Wait minsk minsk two was actually I think minsk two was broken by separatists launching an offensive Uh on I believe of divka in india's region Anyway, uh, feel free to look feel free to two two two to look it up What I wanted to actually harken back to just to since we're almost out of time for the debate section Just to put a fine nice little ribbon on it. Uh, when we talk about like heroic russian anti-fascism Everyone just feel free to google the german soviet access talks. This is more of that real politic for us When soviets tried to ally with the nazis and then, you know, car of fear of influence Uh around the world which only uh, which didn't happen only because Hitler was too greedy In the end or iber or either starting what were the two but anyway heroic russian anti-fascism has been a Funny enough a a far-right nationalist myth In russia used to drum up drum up nationalistic fervor Otherwise, it's complete bullshit. Uh russia the russian military was Not as great as they say without you without substantial u.s Support it wouldn't have won the second world war that easily at least and Also in the beginning it tried to ally with the nazis pretty overtly. So And russia and russia paid the price of 27 million of its people For that mistake and they have recognized that ever since then so to bring up Past errors that they paid for in blood 27 million people Okay, well, I'm sorry to cut this off But the debate portion has ended. We're completely out on the clock So I just wanted to make sure that cas could uh gain hold of the Q&A section where people like to make questions and stuff, right? That's what we're going into now cas Yep, okay Thank you dylan really appreciate that. I want to let you know guys Um, if you have a question for one of tonight's debaters, please go ahead and send it Super chats will be going to a hundred percent of them will be going to the charity for tonight's uh cause which is crutchfeld-jacob syndrome So please go ahead and send uh super chats if you would like, uh, if you uh Would like what you heard from one of tonight's debaters their links are in the description below So, uh, like the stream if you like what you heard share it if you want to spread it and uh subscribe for more gc debates in the future Um, and again, we asked that you keep it civil attack the argument And not the person as the insults will not be read So we're gonna go ahead and kick it into the open uh the q&a now So i'm gonna go ahead and ask the first question and this comes from Ezekiel bread and he says can you say obama? obama He was here from everybody obama All right Dylan do you want me to go ahead and send you some of these questions too? So you can ask them as well Uh, sure if anybody in my chat wants to do super chats as well, that's fine We can take all the money at the end of it and i'll send it over Let's send a question in the the private chat here in the stream yard So you can go ahead and ask that question and then after you're done I'll send the next one. This is from Ezekiel bread Why do people wear gloves because their hands are cold? Why did russian fade ukraine because their hands were cold? They lacked the heating resources oil Actually, the reason is more demographics really russian is in is in heavy high demographic decline and put in realized that Essentially, this was the his last chance of making any meaningful dent in ukraine Their conscription numbers are are decreasing year by year. I would say a half year by half year and Also, i've read so basically this was his last chance and apparently funked it up We lost connor. Oh, okay. No Uh, we still have super chats coming in guys. So just bear with me for once We get to respond because normally the normal you want to be seen is that we get to respond So I was muted for trying to respond to that question. Were you sorry the uh Yep, no problem the whatever the reasons for the invasion of ukraine might or may not be oil and and Natural resources as far as as far as natural gas is definitely not one of them Russia is one of the largest reserves of oil natural gas in the world outside of the ukraine Invading them doesn't does nothing for for for them in that sense Yes, yes, I agree. All right Uh, I hope connor comes back. Um, the next question comes from, uh, Who is this? Uh, did you already read, uh Joe Schwartz is uh, 199 says, what's your favorite video game and why? This is for a whole bunch of fun debate Who's the question for are we all supposed to answer or Whoever wants it, I guess Mine is I'll kick it over the gamers For now mine is like surviving Mars. So You know what I'm gonna do. I'm going to just pets cats too, of course You know, I'm gonna title goose game So and I'm gonna send you this google doc link. Can you click on that? for me All right, so I'm going to just go ahead because people are still sending in super chats and questions And I'm gonna have to keep fielding them So I'm just gonna keep doing that and let you just read them off as you go And then when you we get to a point where we can't go anymore We'll stop hopefully connor comes back. Um, and I'll just read the next question that we are until you get in there Uh from, uh, mark marximus 1000 for 40 czar For adam something if the putin regime collapsed Do you think that there is a desire to instate a lib democracy? If no, what might it look like? That's a tough question. Uh, I honestly don't know what would come out of A putin regime collapse might be civil war might be some other clique Some other oligarchal clique taking over. I would say if if the putin regime does collapse my I would my in I would intuitively reason that it would be just Just another sort of sylovic another oligarchal clan Taking over power, which at that point will be perhaps More amicable towards towards the west because all these people care about his money and power And that's where the money comes from the west Gotcha Are you in there yet dylan? Yep, sure from mr. Saxo key He says with quotation marks you see in 2008 NPC music intensifies You see from 2008. Is that what it was? Yes, okay Yeah Do you want to do the next one or should I do the next one go ahead? From um, I think maximus or czar one of the two Is there any analogy to be had between the policy of appeasement with germany during world war two and the global community? response to the putin regime I mean, I would say that like the the this I think it's very weird to say Like ukraine isn't allowed to join nata because that will provoke russia when like there is no aggression towards russia There is no attacking towards russia and there's not any future There's no plans for nato to start bombing or attacking russia It feels like appeasement that ukraine isn't allowed to make decisions about the future of their country and the future of their security Because they have to be a slave to russian interests Okay, I've got a bunch of super chats The the behavior of the west towards russia in the 90s and the early 2000s has proved That the west west generally has ill intent towards russia and it's and its interests So to say that nato expansion is just oh, it's okay. It's fine. There's there's no world that that's gonna ever have a problem Is again, like I will keep repeating this debate It's to not it's to look at the world Solely through the side of the west and not to look at it as as it looks from the russian side And i'll keep asking where is the nato aggression towards russia and i'll receive no response Where is the soviet Where is the soviet aggression towards the united states when you put missile bases in cuba? It's not about first of all different security situation also It's not about russian aggression towards the u.s. Is that russian aggression towards its neighbors i'm pretty sure that after georgia after maldova after ukraine if you were to go up and ask estonia, lithuania, latvia, poland, hungary like hey How do you guys feel in nato pretty sure all of them are pretty excited about their membership pretty sure they're sitting pretty good right now And and and ironically even finland and sweden now countries that priorly worry, you know Yeah, deciding oh, yeah, we don't want to aggress on russia. Maybe it is too much are now actually starting to flip their opinions on Whether or not they should i think finland might have actually drafted something up that might be like coming up for consideration Both of them both of them are about to join nato in the coming months This this from streaks three two one What does justice have to say about the fact that the majority of the jewish community around the world has rallied behind ukraine All right, that was breaking up something about the jewish community Yeah, they they basically asked what do you think about the international jewish community? Largely rallying behind ukraine I think the international jewish community is under the same influences as the rest of the world and just like the You know the jewish community Rallies around the state of israel even regardless of their policies towards the palestines The jewish community around the world can be mistaken Okay, uh, do you want me to just keep going uh cast yeah, yeah, take it away, man This is from ali With $50. Thank you very much question How can you say that the united states is occupying a third of syria? That takes agency away from the Kurds an autonomous group that takes part in their own geopolitical relations The sdf recently signed a security accord with bashar al-asad Yeah, so this this something's weird. I'm sorry. Good. Good. If it was you that was connor's That was connor's point. Um, I wouldn't be so bold to say that united states It occupies a third of syria that the fact that they did the united states did support The overthrow of the Assad regime or the the attempted overthrow of the Assad regime that is uneniable I I should want to piggyback on that. Uh, actually it's actually really weird Like the more you move in these like weird pro-wrestling circles The more, uh, I think just they made this point originally Like the more you go to these like weird extreme positions like in this case the progression the more these Sort of smaller ethnicities and groups disappear and it's all about the us and it's all about russia and then these like These smaller groups like the Kurds or ukrainians have virtually zero agency. They're just play things of the of the larger players I do want to say before you read the next question that connor did warn us before the stream began That he had a hard out time at around five o'clock his time, which I think is coming up in about 15 minutes So that's probably where he is now. So if anybody's wondering where he is Hopefully he is doing okay, and we wish him the best, but we this is a charity stream So we're going to go ahead and try to press on for the question. So go ahead Darth elsa Can you guys explain why peace loving russian troops are flying the hammer and sickle if it's just about russia defending itself? Oh, good question That is a good question and the answer has to do with internal russia propaganda and narrative setting on the entire ukraine invasion the russians see the ukraine invasion as putin laid out in his pre-invasion speech as a um Say i'm not saving legacies not the right word is not the right does not want to say it but the the ukrainians being Pro-fascists and the russians being anti fascists and the great anti fascist legacy of the soviet union And that has cultural Memorable significance again. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's correct. I'm saying that's how they see it I do like to just on something adam said earlier I think it is a bit ironic that like There haven't been very many true fascist empires in the history of the world and russia did try to align with What it came to it And paid the price of 27 million dead I mean Go ahead This is from stan g for justice According to his logic How is it that ukraine didn't learn from its seven million world war two casualties? But russia did the problem the the tragedy of the Game the great game the great the game of great powers the united states the western powers And the eastern oriented powers like russia and china the great tragedy of that game is that small countries Are lost in the shuffle the The ukranians have learned lessons absolutely tragic lessons from They the world war two and pre world war two eras and those lessons are It's it, you know Who do you want to align with the the communists who instigate hall demore or the fascists germans who instigate? you know ashwits and and Uh, yeah, that's vinson And and the holocaust so that that is part of the fraught history of of ukraine right now And again if i were to take an iron man the side of the ukranians and the support of far right militias and so forth and so on I'd say Yeah, but it's a lot more complicated than just not And I would actually Go so far as to say yeah, sure I agree and now nato is an option and that's why ukraine wants to join nato And that's why all these other countries want to join nato because they've learned their lesson They don't want russian imperialism back and that's why you see nato expending quote unquote Okay, um, you said that insults are not allowed. What if they're just snarky comments? Is that okay or not? Okay? Um, I know which one you're talking about. Um I uh, I I think that um This one is Technically okay, but I would if you think it's not okay, then go ahead. I have a I have a separate one Actually, it's it's a lot more tame. I assume. Um, this is from looks at gordo. It has quotation marks Uh, could I be wrong about this topic? No, it's the international jewish community. Who is wrong? Okay Okay, let's move on to the next one This is from izekiel bread Oh god Is this war wearing on putin? I can imagine him saying I am admittedly beset by tiredness Very good guys. Good job There great job. Nobody else understands it. Thank you very much. Okay next Uh, this is from look at gordo Defending russia in this invasion is just despicable But but but america Okay Again, I will say that I'm not I will really quick say that I am not defending the invasion of ukraine russia had legitimate uh security concerns in The expansion of nato and they should have pursued other Peaceful means of making their those concerns those legitimate concerns heard on the international uh in the international community The invasion of ukraine isn't a The invasion of ukraine is an atrocity but america The antagonism of the west sets the stage and we're like us in the west deny that is Again, unfortunate. I'm really curious. Would you make the same statement about the united states in afghanistan that afghanistan represented A legitimate security concern with their harboring of the taliban and everything and the existence of them there after 9 11 or I would say that the united states had legitimate uh security concerns in afghanistan But that did not justify a full fledged invasion of the country No, I'm just curious. Okay, moving on This is from darth elsa again Does just as not see the correlation of russia threatening its neighbors and those neighbors wanting to join nato There is an absolute correlation between those neighbors wanting to join nato and the perceived threat of russian aggression But again the perceived russian threat of russian aggression increases with western Incursion into those regions. So it's it's you know, it's a tit for tat Sure western incursion into those regions as in countries democratically voting to align with themselves with the west. So anyway As in the primate democratically electing to re-enact itself to rush Immensibly fraudulent election where the two choices were yes or yes, but later Next question. Wow that I didn't expect to the end right there. Okay. This is from mr. Saxel kid again. This is the best comment mod god delin undisputed champion of the world. Thank you for my daily ego boost Next question jason turner at adam. This is for you adam Not crapping on your neighbor's lawn is not appeasement. It is called understanding boundaries Connor is the only person of making sense here Well, I am I empathize with you and whatever brain damage you're suffering. Okay. I'm I'm being a bit me me I'm sorry. Uh, no, actually not scrapping on other people's carpets like dude. No, like here russia instigated Like this this this the whole thing like here here like like Russia shits on your carpet and then dares you right? So like, yeah You know, I shed on the carpet. Well, what now what the fuck I got nukes So you got that I think at the other way around Okay from this is from uh, jason turner Uh, destiny. What does malina's boyfriend think? Good question Well, what does he think? Uh, I don't know. I'll have to go turn on her stream and ask him. Okay, wonderful Okay, this is for just this is this is from vish justice How long was your essay at the beginning? Was it a five page essay or just a five paragraph essay? Are we just reading? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It was 1300 words. Okay Hey destiny got one justice had to get one, right? It was you know, you got to be you got to be an impartial moderator Okay This is one second. Okay Drill dr. Il Are connor and justice willing to admit that putin came to power by doing blatantly false flag apartment bombings to start The second church in war. Wow. That's a very controversial comment as right as soon as Uh, the people in the united states are willing to admit that george w bush They'd empowered in the second term using false flag attacks on 9 11 But First of all the what about ism into the 9 11 truth or ism that was a brave turn We just like pivoted like so and I was the same I actually respect the fuck out of that answer Okay, I guess we're just moving on. Um Okay, did he must for the russian side, uh, which I assume is referring to justice Why do these countries want to join nato in the first place? Good question. Wow I wish we knew again why Central and eastern european countries would want to george join nato is self-evident Why nato would want them to join is not quite as obvious Wait, can we get can we speculate in order to join nato? Every single country has to be on board with them joining like when you say it's self-evident why they would join. Why would they join? Central european and eastern european small countries. Yeah, why would these people power? Why would they want? Oh, it almost sounds like now. I don't want to miss what you're saying But it almost sounds like you're saying they would want to join because for some reason that large superpower It might be like intruding into and fucking with the country But I that couldn't have been what you meant is that because there's been 400 years of history between Eastern europe and russia of mutual aggression. So yes, there there are mostly russian genocide and russian invasion Like the invasion of russian by the poles or the lithuanians or the french like those That's kind of ancient history, which is no longer no longer relevant here. I said 400 years of Mutual antagonism from both sides Okay, I don't think napoleon invading russia is a kind of a factor here. I'm sorry. I think you're reaching a bit I think I think sticking here to the 20th century or like late 19th century is a much more useful metric the united the united kingdom Japan and america invading russia after the fall of the sars regime that close enough in history for you Invading like i'm sorry Invading like what was it like all these three countries japan uk and what to say us They marched their armies to the borders and started taking over and annexing Russian territory and then maintain puppet regimes, etc. Like what did that happen anyway? Yes Really and you as a and you as an eastern european european or unlike our other uh american Viewers and and interlocutors should know your history a little bit better you you you have more cultural memory than this Oh, sure. I should I should look up the the the famous american and uh japanese and english puppet states on russian territory Yeah, and also I like cultural memory is is i would argue can't can be quite short depending what we're talking about right like This idea that we can go back 400 years to justify any russian action today Like how wasn't it like 200 years ago canada burned down our white house Like are we going to go marching into fucking toronto to steal some of their shit like I totally don't buy that I think that we have to segment history into very specific like Like regions of time where we can like look at how people behave in certain points Like you would never go back to the to the rampant imperialism of you know Like the thousands to the 1800s or whatever all through the european continent go well They used to do it then now we can do it now because that was the case I'm pretty sure my history sucks But i'm pretty sure that literally every single european country can justify like constantly invading and shitting on like France and in great britain shit like you do it forever using these types of historical arguments I think that the state's the question of the world and the arrangement changes time goes on But whether or not the question whether it wasn't whether or not or the historical precedent Justifies russia invading ukraine or other eastern european countries. The question was why would eastern european countries Central european countries want to join nato. I said historical antagonism between the two On both sides They're by implying that you know Yes, they're by implying that that these historical precedents do in fact, you know factor into this current Circus I think it says I think it says A lot about our debate here that that that that we can point at like very evident very contemporary very clear cut examples To support our points and you have to reach back to 400 400 years ago Chichnaya invading russia in the 90s with united states support. Okay. We gotta move Okay, no, no, just move. No, just don't go any okay Um, this is from mike b just as an argument that ukraine is a nazi country seems shaky at best Can he rattle off a quick justification? Justice never said that ukraine is a nazi country Justice said that part of the governing coalition in ukraine now The significant a significant part of the military or militarized portion of that coalition has troubling nazi associations and that this is very troubling How we go apart is very troubling in the russian Context and they're trying to when they're trying to assess foreign policy Risks and set agendas so it is an issue It's not the issue and it's definitely not saying that the ukraine that ukraine is a nazi regime I never said that and I would not support that Sure, but like, uh, okay first of all, yeah, i bet russia is worried that like they might get some like, you know, uh competition in the nazi shit, but uh, otherwise like I don't want to know this because I I I want to know honestly I I never get it. I never never ever ever ever get a clear answer to this from like russian people What percentage or what portion of the ukraine military is nazi? And I doesn't even have to be exact like just like a ballpark. Are we saying? Yeah, yeah, 50% are we saying like 0.1% like ballpark? We're talking about, uh, in the in the order of around 10% No 10% they have 200 000 active military personnel there So the wholesome amount of party has 1500 members, but there are you know The ukrainian army has the ukrainian securities forces the ukrainian army has somewhere around 200 000 active members and the combined Uh, overtly nazi militias are somewhere around 15 16 000 just just under 10% Who are they a valid first of all? I don't think they technically have like paramilitary militia, right? They were all incorporated in 2014 into the armed services proper But aside from the as of battalion are there other like prominent like that used to be huge militias that are all like nazis? Or what would what would be defining as nazi here? Yeah, you might you might want to make that be the source Or I don't I don't even be that mean I'm just curious like who who you referring to Like I'm not I don't I don't have to I don't have the links like right under my hands to send into the chat But look into it look into the overt, uh nazi fascist Militias that have been very active in the donbass region since 2014. No, they were on the russian side, definitely they They were not all incorporated into the, uh, ukrainian military and again This is not a major point that i'm trying to To rest on i'm simply saying that it seems like a maybe the taking into consideration taking into consideration the Incursion of kitchen rubbles into russia in the 90s and how devastating a terrible that was when you have Proto-nazi groups on your borders. It's you know, troubling sure justice just real quick This is about the u.s. So it's it'll be intuitive. So we so Isis I believe we can agree that isis exists or existed in its in its peak form Due to forum meddling due to us invasion, right because uh, same I would say to some extent same with the taliban because foreign invasions give This sort of major boost to these like far right crazies in all countries. So if russia is worried about ukrainian nazis from a real politic perspective, wouldn't it be Wouldn't it make sense not to invade because that just tends to galvanize Far right people and like tends to give a huge boost to these far right militias I I'm answering you asked a question. I'm answering you asked a question. Go ahead. Please. Uh, it seems it seems to me That you and our viewers are confusing Pro peace position and pro russian I again started my opening comments with the invasion of ukraine is an unjustified aggression And and it's a tragedy and it's an I condemn it and I'm risking prison time by condemning it inside of russia I am not pro war in this situation But to be not pro war And to say at the same time that I see a history of antagonism that has brought us to this point are two Different things. So so this is this is the thing that would it be better for russia to have not invaded ukraine? Absolutely without question Sure, but here the pro peace position is the pro anyway, sorry to go ahead No, this comment's much more important adam This from kasim adam nothing but lies Why are you running from hazzan jackson on this topic? You lied? Oh, that's all that's so funny like uh, the originally we were supposed to debate. I think uh, uh, you know the like infrared and uh, and uh, hinky Jason hinkle or what's his name? And uh, uh sprinkle tinkle sprinkle. Yeah hinky-dinky. Anyway, like both of them like And then j and then I got this email from james like hey adam like a day before the debate or something Hey adam i'm so bummed to say but like, uh, I despite my best efforts to persuade them like they just like cancelled like, uh Infra and hinky-dink and it's like, okay. Well and then and then I started getting these like screenshots of them, uh Uh, wait afterwards. I made a youtube post without like a community post without ever mentioning them like dude They're like, am I really that scared like how come these dumb asses like won't debate me And then like I guess started getting these like screenshots of them just like malding on twitter That like it was actually me who cancelled which is not true. Uh, hey Infra hinky-dink if you want to debate about ukraine. I'm fully open to it. Uh, just don't bitch out next time. Okay Okay, go so beta Next is from branchy more More i'm just gonna from branchy more Will justus and Connor sadly connor's not here. Tell us their take on the russian invasion of afghanistan That the war did much more damage in the 10 years than america's war in 20 killed up to 2 million and displaced millions more Oh The there was no russian invasion of afghanistan, uh, you should look at your history a little bit better Soviet invasion. Yeah, that's what they meant. Oh, oh, soviet invasion. So yes, there was a soviet invasion of afghanistan I can just to put you back on track And just as I condemn the united states invasion of afghanistan the united states of iraq Um, and the other the another united states invasions. I for peace fantastic Uh, the next question, uh, is adam. What is the reason that the baltics joined nato? I what I don't know. Jesus Maybe it's because like russia was like too friendly and they were like, you know, just like afraid of like russia's Love and friendship that they bestow on their neighboring countries I don't know. I think I think I just need to look into it Uh, next one. Uh, this is from alex parese. Lobel Uh, this is for justice. It says justice and adam, but I think is more directed towards justice Could you elaborate on how modern russia is slash isn't a fascist state? No, uh, quoting it learned from its mistakes All right, um, I would say go find a good definition of a fascist state before you throw those allegations around Sure. Uh, why russia is fascist? So it has uh, it has used ethno-nationalist Uh, propaganda and an ethno-nationalist talking points to justify invasion the invasions of ukraine and also all other countries When when when invading uh, ukraine on the eve of the invasion put in essentially made a blood and soil speech Where he justified the invasion based on ethnic terms Uh, you know, just like hitler did with the sui 18 and etc, etc Also in russia, uh, there's this uh, rabid, uh, state-sponsored nationalism Uh across the country It's extremely traditionalist gays are basically like hunted or second-class citizens at best in cheshire that there have been actually some like actual People with guns going out to like kill gay people. Uh, it's extremely traditionalist obsessed with the with this national plot ukraine is both weak and strong. It's both this It's both this pathetic little rump state and this overwhelming threat that they should stop otherwise russia will be in danger Um, yeah I think you know, it's it's all there. I think it's too easy of a question Here's like here's a really hard question that I would like to answer. How is russia not a fascist state? What does russia do that? It's like man, that's something that russia does that definitely isn't fascist Oh, yeah I'm curious for justice. Do you have an answer like what like Because it has every indication of of a fascist state. I think I don't even know what that's controversial to say like I think that I think that when you're you're trying to prove a point and you and you have a positive position You are the one who needs to provide evidence not the other way around well, sure So adam said it right you have like a highly ethnically oriented country you had the whole It sounds like adam is referencing the Or actually there was a speech by putin There was that accidental publishing of the document once ukraine was supposedly liberated to take it over Where it's essentially like we are a kindred spirit We have similar people a lot of the justification is given for actions in georgia in ukraine Let's look at all of the ethnic russian people here. We have to defend our ethnic russians This this top down push for this like hyper national have nationalistic hyper russian spirit You've got something adam didn't mention the the complete and total alignment of all of your corporate sector with the government via the oligarchical Controls that these families that are close to it would have over the country. How is it not a fascist regime? so the the bringing up of putin's speech on the eve of the invasion and his Arguments for blood and soil is bringing up a single instance of rabble rousing Um as proof of a system of a system much like for instance liberals in the united states bring up Donald trump's rabble rousing as proof that he was also a fascist regime I don't think that either of those constitute such evidence russia has Over 70 different ethnic nation peoples inside of its borders most of them have Autonomous republics which give them large large amount of freedom in ruling themselves and having at their ethnic language spoken inside of their own borders and and Chartering their own economic policy. I live in what's called the altai territory, which is a russian State and next to us is the altai republic, which is ethnically altai and they speak altai there They teach altai language in the schools. They are definitely not under the boot Of some fascist regime So that would be my counter Yes, go ahead and did you want to finish that and this is again not the debate portion. This is that this is the question Anyway, I just I just wanted to like quickly As a brief aside because I think it's very interesting So I don't think just as freedom was to get into this Look russia like russia has has been based on like ethnic supremacy and and and Expensualism in all directions for like a long while alexander pushkin is is is the best example like if you if you look at what he wrote about like We're going back to the 1900s. We're going back to the 1800s again adam Like in this in this case in this yes in this case it is directly relevant Whereas the indian annexation because it has absolutely nothing to do with this Whereas we're talking about the russia now and the fact that Was No Compare 1800 america to 1800 russia, that's all we're not talking about america. We are not talking about america right now Just okay, these these these look, uh, these what about is it was like who who are you in french history historic argument that pushkin provides context for current russian imperialism than a historic argument for manifest destiny Uh is a argument for current american imperialist ambitions. They are analogous Got me Damn Okay, let me just say uh before you guys continue. Um, I just want to let everybody know in the chat that We are going a little extra long on the q&a tonight because this is a charity event We're uh donating 100 of the chair super chats to uh crooch fell yako syndrome So, uh, that's why uh our gracious interlocutors have agreed to stay behind and uh take your questions a little bit longer But i'm gonna go ahead and issue a warning at this point now. The last super chat was from cub of t Um, so at this point any more super chats. I'm not going to try to uh push to get those read I mean if we go on and the super interlocutors do want to stay and read more that's fine But at this point i'm not going to try to uh, so like that last one that just came in Yeah, that's not going to be uh necessarily going to get read So i'm just letting you guys know that and any other uh questions that were sent that weren't super chats I'm sorry, but uh, we probably won't have time to read those tonight. So uh with that go ahead Well one thing, uh, I still have like four or five from my chat that were donated before that Is it okay if I shove them in them out? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead fantastic. Um Let me go to the next one for destiny and adam This is from victor. Do you think the west may have uh, not provoked russia but didn't de-escalate aggressively enough They clarify that they're just plain devils advocate I think that biden actually did a phenomenal job at laying out very clearly the scope of what us involvement would be at the beginning The united states has never made any indication that there were going to be nato troops on the ground Or that there were going to be us troops on the ground We have continually rejected solinsky's request for there being a no fly zone Um, I think the united system a pretty good job at being responsible about setting out exactly the scope of how We'll provide assistance to ukraine also counterfactual that is is nobody really wants to deal with is The idea that that western aggression was the reason reason why russia ever invaded is just a myth But unless we think that like they just happened russia just happened to roll in and take over Crimea from sabbatical. They just happened to do that after you're on my dawn Or you know that they just happened to be building up troops and getting ready for war Just as a civil war in east of ukraine is is hopefully on its way towards winding down winding down after eight years of russia Back on like these aren't random things that are happening. I'm sorry. These aren't things that are happening because of like nato aggression Like justice has literally said The idea of that membership action plan. I think was floated to ukraine. Oh, Jesus. What it was like back in the 2000s I think like this has been a conversation topic for a long time The idea I think 2008. Yeah, the idea that this was um Uh, the same war that they went to the same year that went to war, uh, georgia The idea that this happened in response to a nato plan is just not true It was very clearly happening because russia didn't have the control that it wanted over ukraine And it wanted to punish ukraine for rejecting whether it was their economic policies or further on because it was rejecting the Breakaway parts of the two states to the east I mean, uh, so far like uh, all all the west has done is like try to de-escalate somehow while also keeping ukraine alive Like this like this is the balancing act, right? Like don't let ukraine win like lose I'm sorry Don't let ukraine lose and also don't don't step over the line of like nato engagement with russia because that might just lead to nuclear war And if you and if you take a a very narrow view of this from like february 10th Of 2022 then yes, this is correct. If you take a broader view, which i'm saying Let's look not at ancient history or pushkin, but let's look at at least the last 20 years You'll see a different story The annexation of kimi is in response to a military overthrow Violent coup or violent overthrow of the democratic election elected government of ukraine the georgian war is in Reaction to georgia invading north asatia where russia had troops posted Well, what was the military coup? I don't I don't know what that is. What is the military coup? Are you talking about when yana kovic flood the country? I I am I misspoke. There were no military try being set up. It wasn't like a foreign back military I even like I mean they held an election afterwards. Yeah violent overthrow of the government Just like the election after uh, like the inner government they Just like they had an election just like they had an election after the annexation of Crimea very very similar Absolutely not hold on the annexation of Crimea was held at gunpoint by the russian military that was there Where the two where as adam said earlier the two options were if you want to join us Or do you guys want to have like your own election where your parliament is full of people that will Vote to join us. There was no option there to remain a part of ukraine number one and number No, you're wrong. What do you mean? I'm wrong. You're wrong because You're wrong because this is a point that the western media often gets wrong And it has to do with not understanding internal russian and even ukrainian political speech so the options in Crimea were remain as In the it remain in ukraine as an autonomous republic very much like The altire republic just across the ridge from me where i'm sitting is still part of russia But it is an autonomous republic. It has greater liberties than say a state or a county That was option one option two was annexed to russia and both german and united states funded polling agencies After the annexation was accomplished went in and did repoling To assess whether or not the the The the referendum was even close to being realistic in its numbers and they both came out In the positive and the affirmative that yes, those were actually real Numbers that we saw in the referendum You know, i'm sorry Very quickly very quickly the the the two options on the referendum were like a do want to be part of russia or b Do you support the the the the the the restoration of the 1996 crime and constitution? Um, which which was by the way, they didn't in 1996. I think I believe it was constitution specified uh, you specify Crimea to be Independent and then and then there was there was an an an amendment later to the constitution Which then specified that independent Crimea is part of ukraine But the referendum actually did not specify Which version of the constitution which is referring to so after that the russians Could have just said oh, yeah, by the way, we refer to the original one So Crimea is now independent full of pro russian politicians, by the way Oh, and would you look at that one month down the line? They have submitted the request to get annexed also By the way, um No, no, actually that's it. That's it for now So democratic elections are good when they favor the outcomes that you like bad on the favor Do not favor the outcomes. No democratic elections are not that one was like elections are not democratic when they are held at gunpoint So if you look at this from russia's perspective, what if what if if what if everything you say is true, right? And the options very were like russia or ukraine. What if people vote for what what if people vote for ukraine? Do do do do the russian soldiers just go Okay, I guess we're going home. Fuck no, dude. Are you kidding me? This this rap What did crania was going to russia one way or the other regardless of the of the result destiny Yeah, and I was going to say also are we really saying that the elections that were observed by literally the entire world That happened with the interim government after uh, you're am I done after the revolution that those elections were of the same level of integrity As the elections that were held at gunpoint in crania Like I believe I believe the the the the tribunal I think at the Hague or some some like a higher organization like that I called it a force of complete force of democracy. Also, wasn't there. I don't know if this was true or not We have a problem on I just want to be able to respond I'll I want one what little minute and then we can move on to the next question. Um, absolutely the the uh, You're at the the elections in ukraine after you're am I done, you know that we're internationally Recognized and observed I have no contention with those and I would say to my russian You know friends and acquaintances, you know, you know, we have to move on from 2014 That would be a thing but to not recognize That these things are analogous and that Sponsoring and helping a violent overthrow of the democratic elected at that time government as antagonism toward russia is again It's having too narrow of a view on the effects of our actions in the area in the region Can oh, I guess I just got a viewer question. Oh my god, and they donated to you But you guys think of the super chat and the viewer question asked What was the violent overthrow of yana kovic? You're am I done protests have been happening for months The viewer the viewer wants you to testify. Where was the violent overthrow of yana kovic? And he says the thing are you talking about when yana kovic fled the country because he was scared of being Persecuted for having his police officer shoot and kill protesters during the end of the you're am I done protests? That's what he asked Yeah, the the entire you're am I done Protests was turned into a violent overthrow of the government absolutely um, and yes, he did flee the country and yes, he is you know was a lesser man Then Zalinsky and lesser politician a better politician might have been able to steer out of that those waters but to to to Not admit that it was a violent overthrow that it was just all peaceful and wonderful Is again, it's completely insane and it doesn't doesn't jive with the reality of the facts on the ground All right, so okay very very slick move destiny. Okay. We're gonna Slide through these things very quickly. Okay for mr. Monster who has no good reason to attack Ukraine He is essentially a bond villain so a movie reference next one Ryan Rockwell as a former professional carpet cleaner. Does destiny have any input on the carpet shitting analogy? I don't even know what that's is this a reference i'm supposed to know Yeah, it was from earlier in the debate. Don't worry about it From destiny's mom Stephen, I need you to bring all of your foot spans down stairs so I can clean them. You're doing great by the way I'm proud of you Throwing it over to ash What could the west have done differently? I guess it's just a general question More support earlier more deterrence. Did this lead Russia from even attacking this way we can avoid the war Not expand nato in 1997 1998 1999 and further and promote a central european eastern european security environment much Modeled much like after austria in the post-world war two era Okay For the pro russian side, I assume he just means justice if this is from pro piece Yeah pro piece but just that's what they said I read them verbatim this is from If england reinvaded ireland because there was civil unrest in northern ireland, would you support it? I don't support the invasion of the ukraine Okay, very simple This is heklund from heklund for adam something as a train enjoyer has the russian use of trains for supply convoys dampened your enjoyment of them Uh, no because they also get blown up plus the ukrainians also have nice trains Okay, but thank you for your question victor halic um Five dollars for just real quick. Yeah interject here real quick. That's uh I had requested modern debate originally to have a one-on-one debate with adam something Um, and and then that was what turned into this particular debate And I started watching adam something because he liked trains and he tricked me into watching his channel because it was adam s And I thought it was adam smith about trains damn trivia tricked victor halic Five dollars for destiny and adam. Have you considered that russia is trying to start its own nato? Well, I mean there's talk of the um, is it called the is it called the union state? I think was the goal for um, russia belarus and ukraine to all kind of be part of their own little I guess like federated union or whatever um But I mean, yeah, they might be trying it but also something that was mentioned earlier. Um, I believe the idea of nato Fuck I am not adam or even joseph. I don't know this but the idea of russia joining nato I think was floated to putin and I thought that putin just didn't want to go through the process because he thought It was like an insult to russia to have to like wait in line and to like wait for all the acceptance They wanted us to like roll the red carpet out for them Oh, yeah, that's that's actually like russia could have been part of the western sort of power structure They just like refused because like, you know, fuck it. We're we're empire. We're big big boys Look where look where they got them Not true, uh, russia in the beginning in late 90s and the early 2000s several times Made overtures to the west about russia being part of nato and they were flatly Denied No, the the the the the denial was that okay the guys will leave it up. It's not going to go immediately The the the denial was that it's going to have to be a process and I'd anyway And I'd leave it up to the viewers to research them Oh, please do please do Okay, I don't know what this means. So maybe one of you guys can uh, give me some levity on this Thoughts on paul joseph watson's comments. I I don't know what that means Somebody tweeted out some wild shit about some shitty. So I guess I don't know. It's pretty crazy, but Okay, keep going them This is from ethan steinberg and this is for justice. Should the united states stop providing weapons to ukraine question of whether or not the united states should be currently providing weapons to the to the ukraine is a little bit like the question of Whether the united states should enter world war two After, you know, the germ, not nazi germany has taken over all of europe or most of europe and has invaded the soya union The question isn't what we should we should or shouldn't be doing now The question is what we should or shouldn't have been doing to avoid this this inevitable conclusion of events in 97 in 98 and throughout the 2000s our own foreign policy establishment warned us in 97 98 99 when clinton was beginning to Escalator or expand nato that this was what was going to happen the same foreign policy establishment that helped us win The cold war warned the clinton administration that this was the inevitable result of nato expansion So should the west help ukraine uh And again, i'm putting myself into some pretty uh dames position here trying to answer this honestly, but should the west help the ukraine Rebuff the russian invasion at this point in the game I don't think there's any other option. We should look for for exits. We should try to find overtures for peace But of course, you know, you you don't want to land war in in europe obviously like that's But but on the same time it's this is what my whole point is Let's look at the broader picture and look at what led to this not not just looking this again um, it's it's the question of we should we should have tried Should the treaty of versi have been different? Um, and might might that have uh helped Mitigate the world war two or or or not allowed for it as opposed to whether or not we should get involved in world war two Yeah, careful careful with the answers. I hear I hear in fascist countries. There's a risk that you might go to jail If you say their own things on air so Next question. I missed that was that a question adam. There was breaking up. No, no Next question is from k. I what are your thoughts on western generals like mr. George bush and mr. Girls imperialist actions against russia. I think that's for justice I was mr. George bush girls something breaking up Oh, sorry. Okay. Let me say that. It's a dot meme question. Go to the next one. Okay, got it Okay, thanks question a little off topic others from vish But what do you all think this could mean for china and taiwan? I feel like the situation between china and taiwan is is markedly different like the relationship between taiwan and china and You know, whether that is like a truly independent country, which is not in the way that ukraine was from 91 onwards I just I think the situations are dissimilar. I don't think you can compare that to Yeah, I agree I think they're dissimilar But but I think that there are lessons being learned and I think to one at one at one degree The chinese are seeing What the international community's response might be to Something like a reassessing of power over taiwan And and hopefully, you know taking notes Okay, actually I just finished a video on this that i'm going to release this thursday So if anybody wants to watch that of course ilmer and stavey on youtube, uh shameless plug Next one mr. Saksake for twenty dollars. Will the real kremlin gremlin? Please stand up. Please stand up. Oh my god. He's standing goddamn hazer short amazing Next one Yes, adam is the kremlin gremlin. Oh gee snoop So slavery didn't play a role in shaping the south of today What a dumb point of view Slavery did shape jim crow and current economic segregation I think it's a real debate or something All right, okay Next is from ambient wave With rumors of putin soon to announce full-scale military mobilization How would this development affect the current conflict in ukraine? I don't think that will happen. It might there's a chance but actually, you know So, okay complicated question russia short answer russia Has had enough troubles with their trained forces already, right? I mean they fucked up enough with them like especially with the baby, you know And to to to order a full-scale country by mobilization that would take months to train up people, you know And and to to to be actually To train them up to at least to be marginally better already to send them in and then we haven't even talked about moral issues supply issues hardware etc Plus the sanctions the sanctions effect on the direction between industrial complex Also in russia the funny situation is that they would also need to train the trainers To train the to train the conscripts that they would get so mass mobilization might happen Although it's not it's not going to have a substantial effect on the war in ukraine Adam something likes to point out um russian ineptitude in the ukraine and likes to make funny posts about uh russian equipment looking funny and that's ha ha ha there's so much of it But but the but the reality the reality is is that Russia in its invasion of ukraine has made the mistake that large countries often make When they do not uh assess their opponent correctly much like the united states north in the civil war Where they thought they would have the war over in two or three weeks and it took four to five years Um, so will russia declare war on ukraine there are both pros and cons of that The pros of that would be that they could legitimately then use the their conscript army Again, this is another propaganda from the west russia doesn't have a concrete conscript army as much as it has mandatory service um and part of the the law around mandatory service is that you cannot use the people who are the the men who are in the army for mandatory service in Wars that are outside of russia's russia's borders So there's definitely a pro argument to declaring wars that you can use the vast majority of the reserves To to to advance the war in the ukraine That is the pro the con is that that would go against the the particular propagandistic narrative that is in russia right now, which is this is not a war This is a internal conflict between brother nations And this is a special military operation and it's just tactical That would would give total would totally belie that narrative. And so there's definitely a con to to doing that. I I definitely of course as the pro piece Party in this debate Hope that russia does not Declare war and does not use its its conscript army if the war drags out long enough russia will win It's it is unless the western powers actually put troops on the ground Which then will have a lot of other things to worry about than whether ukraine will fall or not Well, I guess we'll see Okay, uh, this next one is from gombi This is a hundred check krona, which either is a lot of money or not a lot of money. I have about four dollars amazing For the pro russia side, which I mean I seem means you Are we supposed to believe russia is intervening to prevent fascism? When the same lie was used before by the soviet union to justify its evasion of hungary and shekel savakia Russia has legitimate history issues with fascism. And so it's an absolutely ready-made propaganda piece when you have fascist militias Doing war on your borders. Like it's it's ready made. So of course, that's part of the propaganda. No russia did not invade ukraine to Um stop fascist brigades. It's part of the propaganda. It's part of the narrative Um, and it's and it's part of the whole issue that you have to they have to take into consideration The main reasons for the invasion of the ukraine was legitimate security concerns advancement of nato um, western western orienting, uh Countries in the buffer zone around russia. That is that the issue Okay, the next question is this is from a ukrainian Uh stanji Uh justice you are simply wrong. All battalions were either disbanded or integrated into the ukrainian armed forces by 2017 I said out as I countered two destinies in 2014. They were integrated. I said they were not integrated in 2014 My dear friend, I'm not right. I'm right. Sorry that I'm speaking russian. I would speak ukrainian if I could What? He called you a beta destiny Going to the next one. This is from streaks Uh, 10 dollars can just as common on the Wagner group the russian pmc group that is essentially an unofficial wing of the russian military Whose leader is a confirmed neo nazi? Uh founder, I believe. I don't know if they're the current leader still Being being an uh pro russian ethnic natural nationalist is not the same as a historical neo nazi That's a but b the Wagner group and its That's reason is like the entire war undistifiable And russia is playing with with with fire with its own with its own stuff. So this is absolutely You know, it's bad bad bad bad stuff. No no no good Okay, next one dorth else. Can I ask a personal question? To hell. Yeah, uh, jesus Okay, I think a lot of people have seen like the the tattoo, right? Like the I don't know. I'm a clean. No, not not you about About the founder of the Wagner group with you know, the s s and the In the in the swastika with them with the nazi eagle. What is that about? Um, what a good question That is uh a good question. Um, but again, I would say that it's it's about, um I oh wait a second. I was just not aware of that. I guess. Um, so it's an it's in the five foot on that one It's an it's an it's an it's an ironic as a symbol So there's a very famous there's a very famous photo of the leader of the Wagner group with a shirt off and you can see A swastika with the nazi eagle and s s it do maybe I mean, I've seen it like a million times Maybe it's it's a fake and I have not been made aware of it But I I I've been Dylan told me about the reason why people the reason why people don't usually take it One second one second This is a private okay, right? Yeah, I would like to hear the swastika. I'm genuinely curious by the way I'll two two points on that one wrote number one. I'm not here to defend the Wagner group and the Uh work of paramilitary groups in the Dumbos Dumbos and Lugansk region Russian paramilitary groups. That's unjustified I don't I don't justify it. I don't think it's right number one So I'm not so familiar with their history and and and the the exact political Um affiliations of that of that group although I'm aware I even had unfortunately acquaintances who went to fight in the Dumbosk and Lugansk region So I'm at least that to that degree familiar with with situation number two It feels like you are definitely violating the neutrality of the platform I'm sorry, I was just I was just definitely curious. I I did I did I didn't want to ask before if I could ask I'm very sorry, but we can continue. Um to do um This is from darth elsa again considering russia has uh completely surrounded at mario poll maybe the threat of the asov nazi super soldiers is exaggerated Um, we've kind of been over this like a million times. Can we just keep going? I think we can just keep going, right? Yeah, keep going. Okay. This is from translucent man Isn't russia to blame for the anti russian sentiment in many of the ex-soviet countries does decades of subjugation of those nations to people not count as russian provocation Absolutely, and so eastern european and central european countries who want to be part of a security alliance or security uh regime of some kind that can keep them out of The militaristic influence of their largest neighbor is understandable I'm not i'm never have I said that those that those motivations are not understandable But again, we have to look at both sides of the motivational schema in order to make sense of the world and not repeat Mistakes that cause more conflict and not less The next one's from a u studios justice said russia is not fascist But he's worried about being arrested for not being strongly pro-war slash pro-putin if they weren't authoritarian Why would they arrest you when? You're are clearly 99 percent there. I don't know what the end of it says but you get to just the question Fascism fascism In general nazism in particular Which is the allegation that's floated most often in modern debates about Anything you don't like it's kind of the go-to whipping boy Is a particular form of right wing tyranny and authoritarianism russia currently is far more authoritarian than uh Our western counterparts. Uh, there's no question about that. Uh situation, uh, of which i'm not necessarily happy, of course That's that's that's unfortunate that that that's the the path that we have chosen the russian people have chosen to To follow and to go down. That's that's unfortunate But to say that any authoritarian regime is fascist is ridiculous Uh authoritarian authoritarian regime does not a fascist mate. There can be left-wing authoritarian regimes There can be centrist authoritarian regimes so forth and so on Okay, um now we've gone through all of the questions that have been pre approved Do we have any time left for the uh other questions like as? Um, there was one more from cup of tea. They were just asking. What does everyone's take on the Uyghurs? um I mean, it's it's a genocide by china. He fought right regime justice it's a genocide by china much like the war in yemen uh supported by the united states is a genocide against the yemenis All right, okay, uh Okay, should we go on to the warning given questions or? um Well, destiny is not here. I think we should just go ahead and uh close it out. Um, Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, um, I just want to let everybody know. Uh, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Um All of our debaters are linked in the description below whether you're listening on podcast So please check them out if you like what you heard tonight and please uh subscribe Because we have more juicy debates coming up for your enjoyment And uh, just want to let you know that want to thank dylan for helping us put this all together Getting adam something justice together. Uh, hopefully we have more Collaborations in the future. Thank you to justice adam something destiny and connor for being here Um, so again like it if you loved it share if you want to spread it and subscribe We have many more debates coming your way. Um Thank you. Have a great night and keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and have a great night everybody Fantastic, we're out of here. Good night everyone. Thank you guys and best wishes to james Nice job, uh justice for hanging in there for the two and one at the end. Yeah. Yeah truly All right, so thank you for what?