 All right. Hello. Hello. Hello. This is Nick Gillespie with Reason. It is Thursday in the one o'clock hour So it's a reason live stream. I'm joined by my reason colleague Zach Weismiller. Zach, how you doing? Good? All right, we got a great show for you to let's bring in Dave Rubin the one and only a man whose ideological odyssey is Globetrotting you have gone from being a young church to being a Independent YouTube phenomenon to being a self-described classical liberal to now you are a big supporter of Ron DeSantis. You've moved from New York originally to California now to Florida Dave Rubin. Thanks for talking to reason Hey, it's good to be with you guys. I would say if I could give a one sentence Recap of that political odyssey. It's that I've gone in the direction of freedom. That really is it I think that will resonate with the reason-viewers. I hope so. Let's run a clip Dave You and I have talked at various points over the years. Here's a clip you talking about what matters to you in politics or in Ideology from a 2017 reason interview. Zach, you want to play that clip? What goes into your definition of a classical liberal? So this has been one of the biggest issues that I've talked about for the last couple of months First off a liberal people don't understand this but a true liberal really is a live and let live attitude Which people prescribe usually to libertarianism. I do believe that the state has some use now I don't want a huge state I firmly believe in individual liberty more than anything else and that you have to live the life you want for yourself That's the best way for humans to prosper Alright, so, you know, that's from 2017 Which seems like a different planet right now and I want to commend you Dave Like myself, I think you look better now than you did in 2017. So we're aging pretty gracefully here But Nick, can I tell you something? Can I tell you something real 30 seconds on that point? You know at that moment 2017 That was sort of when I was just leaving the left and I was getting a ton of hate online and I developed you may know this I developed alopecia areata, which is a autoimmune disease where you lose huge chunks of your hair This is this is all my hair. I'm very happy to say but I was losing quarter size piece of my hair about 40 percent of my hair I was using spray-on hair all sorts of crazy stuff I was on a crazy experimental medication Which is why I look very kind of bloated in that picture and my eyes I look puffy and whatever But I started I changed my diet a little bit. I dealt with stress I don't use Twitter as much and it all kind of worked out So well and you you know since that I mean just and I didn't think you look bad there to be quite honest But now that you know now that you say it I see the puffiness But it is you know, you were in California. You've left California in 2021 you moved from California to Florida You know, we had the rise Donald Trump, you know the rise and kind of fall of Donald Trump or rather him not getting reelected We had COVID Which you know is you know just like a total black swan event You know that has changed everything Do you still feel like you are a classical liberal in the way that you talked about there? Or have you migrated to a different place on the political spectrum? No, I absolutely believe the same things that I believed in that interview from about six years ago And that's what my whole first book don't burn this book is about I mean it was a full defense of classical liberalism and I laid out as many of my political Beliefs and the ideology behind it as I as I possibly could into a you know about a 200 page book The thing is I don't say classical liberal that often anymore Because unfortunately the word liberal has been so mucked up Which I sort of implied in that in that short clip there that to continue to run around and saying no no I'm an actual liberal the lefties are nuts the democrats are not liberals anymore If JFK was reincarnated or we could bring back Daniel Patrick Moynihan or Ed Koch Then we'd have some version of that and then also Just because people are just you know people are busy and everyone's staring at their phones all day To have to whittle that slight difference that you and I nick have talked about many times that that you know Razor thin difference I would say between a classical liberal and a libertarian where I would say a classical liberal sees a little more utility for the government And and we could quibble about that It's not that I've shifted I think at this point Especially now living in Florida and seeing what a functional slim trim government can do Most of my classical liberal ideas and beliefs They fit Within what I would say is sort of a wide tent or small c conservative movement So I think we're going to probably talk about that a bit more. No, I don't think any of my Uh political beliefs from that six years ago have shifted really Okay, and you know talk a little bit you you now are You're part of the blaze network glenn becks outfit and things like that Do do those guys does the blaze? You know consider themselves classical liberals or are they conservatives or could I guess You know, I I hear your point about the difference between libertarian and classical liberal and it's you know, it might be The difference in you know the size of a limited government, but do conservatives Are they also classical liberals or is you know to your right? Is there Something what's what's the meaningful difference between being a classical liberal and being a conservative? Sure, it's a good question. Just to clean up one technical thing So I I'm fully like I do my show completely independently on my boss. I do everything I'm you know, I'm with rumble, which I partly owned because I created locals dot com and we merged a few years ago I do distribute the show with with the blaze, but they're okay. No, that's that's a good distinction to know And also let me say if I if I may just to congratulate you a bit more the locals and rumble fascinating, you know kind of way of responding to Social media or other kind of new media platforms becoming really grabby or sensorial and things like that You know what you did with that was provide a place where people had much more freedom to Do and say and own whatever they produce so good on that I I appreciate that and you know, hopefully I'm on this mortal coil for many more years But I think when I'm long gone hopefully the legacy of what we created with that You know the alternate rails for for a free and independent Internet, hopefully that would be a big part of my legacy if such a thing exists As for the distinction between say conservative and classical liberal Glenn Beck for example, I think he's described himself often as a classical liberal Now he has some conservative beliefs or let's not make this about Glenn so specifically I think generally the thing that that takes someone who truly understands what a classical liberal is Rights laissez-faire economics limited government the thing that there's the distinction between that and a conservative Usually has more to do with traditional religious beliefs where liberal, you know libertarians classical liberals You know, obviously, I don't care who you marry I certainly don't care what you smoke or what you do in the privacy of your own home Conservatives generally have attached a little more of their traditional religious beliefs to the political realm Now that's obviously not the spot that I'm in. I'm I'm married to a man and I have two children That's that's certainly not what's thought of as Traditionally conservative, but what I can tell you is this I have found almost without exception Minor exceptions Conservatives to be way more Not just open-minded, but tolerant and welcoming of people of different beliefs and willing to agree to disagree The best example I can give you that give you of that is that a couple years ago? I spoke at liberty university It's the largest evangelical college, you know, jerry fallwell country In the united and used to be jerry fallwell jr. Right. Yeah. Yeah He got into a little bit of trouble there. Yeah Nobody's perfect. Okay. Uh, but at the uh, I spoke there for their sunday convocation and this is an event They do every sunday. It's a part religious part political part educational event 14 000 students I mean, it was absolutely massive. I'm guessing it was mandatory, but that still is an immense audience. Yes Yeah, I I actually I honestly I don't know if it's mandatory, but either way it was Back to the gills. These kids know my or these young people. They know my political beliefs. They know my story, blah, blah, blah I gave my speech. They didn't ask me to say or not say anything Standing ovation. I spent the day wandering around the campus getting high fives and taking selfies from the kids And it was fairly obvious that some of them had some certainly some religious disagreements with me But that we roughly want to live in the same country and that to me is the place that's interesting How do we take yeah guys like you? And how do we take those libertarian beliefs and connected in a society with people that have say more traditional values Or are more concerned, you know, I think you're probably more libertarian on say all drugs than I am for example Right, but we clearly want to live in the same country and that's the place Where we can do some work and unfortunately on the left. It's pretty much just scorched earth at this point Can I ask one? Quite follow-up question on this before we move on to the discussion of the santis in that opening click Cliff clip Dave you talk about the importance of individual rights or you know, the it's it's all about protecting the individual sphere of choice and That is is that something that's still at the center Of what you believe and do you think that's at the center of where conservatism? Is right now because you do hear a lot of talk of things like You know common good conservatism and a little bit more of a collectivist approach to things do you Embrace that or are you still, you know, how liberal at your core? Yeah Well certainly from my own personal belief I absolutely believe that individual rights that everyone who is in a society a country That has borders for a reason each nation state. We should treat each individual person with the exact same rights There's no such thing as gay rights or black rights or trans rights or anything else If you are human and you are here legally, you should be treated equally under the law period as for the the next part of what you're talking about I think that's sort of like what society building is all about that You know, once you start with the individual you have then, you know, you build up It's a bottom-up thing that of course libertarians are very comfortable with you have say your individual life You have your family life You have your town life that expands into your city life your state life the federal government life This is where we're going to have some push and pull probably and where I'll have some push and pull With the conservative movement, especially if DeSantis Really continues and I and I think this is going to continue quite well actually Because yeah, there you can start wandering into some territory That maybe a guy like me wouldn't be that comfortable with and certainly I don't think you guys would be that comfortable with But again, this is where that that agree to disagree or that that 250 years of america that was pretty much working That's what we have to get back to Okay, well, let's talk about DeSantis, you know, uh, you you have come out in favor of DeSantis You had a a video op-ed or you know on your youtube channel It said something like, you know three reasons i'm in favor of Ron DeSantis things like that What is the case? You know succinctly because we're going to talk about this for an hour But let's lay out the thesis statement Ron DeSantis for libertarians like why should libertarians who are going to have some, you know kind of reservations about some of the stuff He does, uh, you know and not simply eating pudding with his fingers What's the case for Ron DeSantis to libertarians? Well, first off I mean the guy was part of the freedom caucus when he was in congress with a bunch of other guys that libertarians Seemed to like uh, he is the most I would say limited government but uses government when it should be used Uh politician that we have probably in america certainly now at a national level You know florida, I mean we can do a couple like just basic libertarian things here Florida is a no income tax state that is great for libertarians Uh florida we have we have the rule of law now I think we probably have some little disagreements maybe on levels of policing or that sort of thing But libertarians want to protect life and want to protect property. That's being done incredibly well Here in florida actually zack you you mentioned right before we started you live in one of the few places That's democrat run now in florida florida, which is almost all red now Don't forget DeSantis won his first election in 2018 by 30 000 votes to a guy who turned out to be a He won his reelection by 1.6 million votes. It's basically the biggest landslide in florida history He turned what was at one time a blue state than a purple state into Basically the most red state in the country and from what i've seen He's really only using government when it's effective and uh, because I know libertarians don't like red tape and don't like regulation We had that unbelievably horrific. It's less than a year ago Basically category five hurricane ian hit southwest florida The rebuild there has been so unbelievably fast because he went in cut all the red tape and they have rebuilt I mean, I've been there. It's on the other coast. I'm here in miami, but that sannabelle bridge It's a three mile bridge. It would have taken any other state two years to rebuild that thing They've had it functional in about three weeks That's just one little example of the type of things that he's done He doesn't believe in government and then we could do all the covet stuff. I mean he opened up the state He made sure the kids were going back to schools. He was fighting against masks He you know, he's also trying to get esg out of all of our government institutions I mean, we could we could go on and on throughout this. Yeah, that's a that's a good starting point Zach, you want to play the uh clip from uh, uh, ronda santa says, you know, he announcement via twitter Yeah, yes. Yeah, he took to twitter spaces last week with david sex and ilan musk co-hosting him To make his presidential announcement, which was something different that's no other candidate has done before So perhaps we can talk a little bit about that choice and why he did that But I just want us to listen to the opening pitch That disantis made to voters and get your reaction dav to substance of that pitch All I am running for president of the united states to lead our great american combat Look, we know our country's going in the wrong direction We see it with our eyes and we feel it in our bones our southern borders collapse drugs are pouring into the country Our cities are being hollowed out by spiking crime The federal government's making it harder for the average family to make ends meet and to attain and maintain A middle class lifestyle and our president Well, he lacks vigor flounders in the face of our nation's challenges and he takes his cues from the woke mob I don't think it has to be this way american decline is not inevitable It is a choice and we should choose a new direction a path that will lead to american revitalization What was your reaction to his opening pitch Well, can I tell you the line that really struck me there was I don't think it has to be this way He's right. It doesn't have to be this way this insanity that we are dealing with at the border with endless inflation with politicians That refuse to say anything remotely true with debt ceilings that constantly rise and all of these endless things It doesn't have to be this way, but I think the collective memory. We don't like collectivism But the collective memory of americans right now is sort of like oh, it's been bad for a while And you know, we're kind of at the end the empire is over Let's just manage the destruction and hopefully the zombies don't eat our faces on I don't think it has to be that way and I think de santis has actually proven that Here in florida, which is why I always tell people, you know We can talk about policy all day long and policing and economics and all of that stuff We can do it all day long But for the people that are not particularly political that are just going to vote at the end of the day because it's election day And okay, i'm not really sure what i'm going to do all you have to do Is look at where people are going and where they are fleeing from And a million plus people have come to florida in three years 1200 people a day even now And california has lost about 1.3 million people new york has lost over a million people and it's obviously not just florida It's texas tennessee wyoming a couple other states. I was doing quite well But that to me at the end is the is the key point. Where do people want to live? post-covid post all of this dystopian really draconian Horrible stuff in terms of rights and our ability to live as we see fit some places defended American principles some did not so I I thought I also thought going to twitter was a good idea I happened to be at twitter that day, which was a complete coincidence meeting illan later that night But going to twitter as opposed to you know, one of the things that i'm frustrated with trump on Is he's right when it comes to fake news cnn He's right when it comes to the failing new york times But then he does town halls with cnn to put them on life support He does interviews exclusives with maggie haberman at the new york times the santis gets what time it is So he's like no i'm gonna run around them and guess what they all covered it now did they cover it fairly probably not That's a separate issue. Yeah, but I think I think his age, you know, he's younger Zach I don't know how old you are but he's certainly younger than nick and I he's 44 Like we need a generational shift here too. So I I think he has everything Look, I don't worship politicians. I'm just like you guys I would rather a state where I barely knew the politicians or knew who they were However, this once in a while a guy comes along Who isn't a megalomaniac who has a good pedigree who's doing the right things who is adjusted as Information changed as he did with covet and I think that it's incumbent on us For those of us that speak about politics or issues for a living To fight for the people that are doing that Can I ask, uh, you know, one of the things you're, you know, you're hitting a lot of high notes for uh, DeSantis, uh, which makes sense. I'm thinking, uh, you know Things are roughly analogous to uh, the late 70s. Um, you know, and I'm older than you dave So I I remember that more than you might but you know, people were exhausted people were tired The economy was going sideways and and slightly down It looked like militarily the u.s. Was floundering. Um, you know people it was just a bad gray You know kind of slushy moment Reagan came along and one of the things that Reagan Really exuded was optimism and confidence. I mean he said a lot of limited government stuff, etc But somebody like DeSantis and this is, you know, a vibe check really I don't see him as being optimistic, uh in the way that Reagan Reagan was funny Reagan reached out to people who disagreed with him Do you think DeSantis does he you know, he's seen he's a very old 44 year old He does not you know, whereas Reagan was a very young, you know, 70 year old or something like that, but um You know, do you feel that DeSantis exudes optimism on a personal level? He seems very combative and very defensive when he's Talk it. Sure. Well, first, let me address the Reagan thing. You know, Reagan really was an unbelievably special character You have to remember this guy was an actor in Hollywood before eventually, you know And a democrat of his life and then eventually becomes republican governor and then probably, you know By most certainly conservative standards the best republican president we've had in let's say a hundred years something like that Libertarians might disagree with that, but you know, that would be the conservative point on on Reagan His ability to to be funny and off the cuff and tell a joke and go on the tonight show I mean, still if you look at my youtube search history, I watch old Reagan speeches and tv appearances because he was so incredible So, I mean he was so remarkable. I I mean I was in high school when he got shot And he made a joke as he was going under surgery after being shot He said like I hope the doctors are are republicans Or something which was incredible Do you know was that was that 1980 if i'm not mistaken? Do you know 81 that is actually so I was born in 76 that is one of my first memories as as a child I remember that watching tv with my parents and they were freaking out and I remember seeing a They had like a sort of cartoon body on the screen and they were showing where the bullet went Anyway, uh, so if your question is is desantis reagan in that sense of like just like he Zudes like all of that and of course, he's not of course. He's not Um, I've spent a lot of time with him, you know privately and done public events with him He likes people a lot. He loves he's more of a policy wonk. I would say He remembers every freaking vote and who was on the floor of every you could literally ask him that vote on that random thing in 2017 and you were on the he'll remember absolutely everything I he loves talking about baseball But is he reagan? No, but as as far as the positive vision thing I think he's given an incredibly positive vision actually now now it comes with a Uh with a fight or a bite to it because we are fighting something so crazy what we now call wokeness that has done Unbelievable damage to our institutions and our republic. So he's fighting it with a certain a certain Zest or or whatever whatever you want to call that But I would also point you to this, you know, donald trump if you watch interviews with donald trump in the 80s He would go on oprah and phil donahue and all of these things you can find them on youtube. Yeah, he's very soft spoken He's very pleasant. His affect is very very different Oprah's talking about when he'll run for president and everything and then I think what happens is when you're in a system For a certain amount of time and it lies about you over and over and everything's working against you all the time You end up with a much more gruff persona and much more aggressive persona like trump now I think that's been truncated for desantis a little bit The amount of lies that are told about this guy that he's racist because he got rid of a ap african-american studies course that was going to be about gender queer theory That he somehow pushed something called don't say gay which didn't the word gay wasn't even in it It's called hb 1557 and it had to do with parental rights and education. I'm happy to discuss that if you want Everything that they have lied to him about I think he just has an understanding of that So he treats things accordingly. So I think for most people you have to decide like do you want a friend as the president? Or do you want an executive who's going to defend the constitution? And I think it's fairly obvious to me. It may not be obvious to a lot of people I mean the cult of personality around the president is obviously a big thing But I really think the more people see him and get to know him I think they're going to like him more, but i'm not completely dismissing what you're saying What worries me about that fight that he has against wokeness is that I'm not Convinced that he really is going to be a defender of the constitution You know like when I moved to florida I liked that desantis swerved away from the public health establishment So a lot of what you're saying resonates with me dave I you know, I like that he put a big emphasis on letting individuals make their own choices I think it was good for the people living in florida. I think it was good for the economy of florida What I don't like about the post covet desantis is now he seems Pretty willing to use state power to advance a conservative social agenda and punish his enemies and i'm worried So what would what would be an example of that? I assume you mean disney, right? That's one, uh, that's a great example. Yes Okay, so we should we should do the disney thing. Look disney had Tons i've actually got a list of them here because I had a feeling you were gonna ask me about them So I can read them all off to you Disney because I know this is an issue with libertarians that we should never use the government for anything Except what he did was use the government in the exact way that libertarians want the government to be used You don't want government overreach But you do want to make sure there isn't crony capitalism disney took Desantis took special benefits away from disney meaning disney had been granted special benefits related To building codes and water rights and this airport and taxes and a whole bunch more I'm happy to read them all off to you that were not granted to their competitors such as seaworld and universal studios And gatorworld which in essence do the same thing they're their theme parks So disney he then took their special rights away thus evening the playing field Which is to me the ultimate thing that a libertarian would want you would want the government only to act to even the playing field So the playing field was like this and then he used the government to do this There are thousands right or hundreds of special tax districts in florida that were in place and remain in place He also carved out in his social media law. He carved out an exception for disney Before they crossed him on gay rights So it seems like it's la I mean part I you know Let's actually speak for himself But for me part of it is that he is not acting out of principality He's actually acting out of personal peak and that seems to be coming through In other I don't think so. You know, I see I I understand the position. I suppose Uh, well, I don't understand the position in that he wasn't doing anything against gay rights So let's just put that aside. I mean he's done nothing against. Well, I mean let let let me put it this way that it's, you know, uh the uh, don't say gay law or the parental rights and you know, I think it's this is something that Um, I think libertarians need to uh, kind of grapple with more fully Which is that ronda santa signed what is you know, either the leading or certainly one of the best school choice bills In the state in the country But then he does this and he did this with mask He did this with other things where he's saying in order to preclude certain choices I'm going to say at the state level Local school districts local businesses can't make certain types of choices and for me That's worrying because what I see as somebody as he gains more power is going to start To exert his personal choices or a conservative ideological agenda on more and more aspects of everyday life If you just said you just give me an example of what you're talking about because I don't know Yeah So what i'm saying is is that if you want school choice and if you believe in parental rights You should give money to parents and they can send their school their kids to whatever whatever schools They want public or private, but then if you start to say, okay And also by the way schools cannot teach this schools cannot do this schools cannot xyz That's confusing to me. Um, and it strikes me as Maybe that's the difference between being conservative and being libertarian, but I find it worried Well, well first off as long as the government has anything to do with education Then somebody has no they're gonna fund it. No, actually they don't really but no I get the libertarian position on this. I I could get there I'm all for school choice. And if you want to do, you know, what's happening right now And it's largely in part because of florida's blueprint, but it's happening in iowa and arkansas and Montana and several other states is funding of students as opposed to systems I think we're probably in agreement that that's the best to do it If you think that there should be any funding Tax-related whatsoever. I I don't have a problem. Yeah, I don't have a problem. I I am a uh, uh, Squishy libertarian So so so in that regard is so if we're roughly agreed on that well, then the question is okay So if you're saying you're going to have some level of public education Somebody has to decide what's in that curriculum Now the fact is and I would think that local schools Would do that local school districts local schools Sure parents and I mean why why is the state getting involved in saying you can't have this kind of curriculum You can't have that kind of curriculum. Well, first off, that's not that's actually not what's happening I mean when people talk about these book bandings all they've done is kicked it back to the districts to say are you okay With certain books in your school the really the only book that has been banned and please people check me on this There have been books that have been moved from say, you know, third grade reading level to a middle school reading level So literally different shelves the only book that Yeah, okay. Go ahead. No the the only book that's been banned has been this what what's the book? It's called the gay Gender queer which literally teaches you how to have gay sex now. I don't care if it's gay sex or straight sex But why is that in a library? We all know that's wrong We all know that's wrong But on the on the specific part about the parental rights in education I mean try I say this when I'm doing public talks all the time Everyone watching this right now including you guys try to remember what it was like to be in third grade Now try to remember your think about your third grade teacher for just a moment Get her name in your head and picture her now try to imagine if she had been talking to you about gender identity and sex privately privately for months Possibly calling you a name of the opposite sex and your parents didn't know about it. It's so absolutely insane That is the best part of that law now Absolutely to go to the zoo back in the day You'd have to have parents sign a letter. Yes to make sure you weren't eaten by the line instead And then that is all well and good And it's also I I think if you actually give parents the right And the ability to choose their schools, you know, this stuff takes care of itself But then to say okay any Any discussion of sexual orientation Or of gender identity in grades k through 12 or k through a or at higher ed To try and squeeze out whatever it passes for critical race theory. These are troubling to me That's and I'm saying this from a libertarian perspective I don't expect conservatives to agree and I don't necessarily expect liberals or progressives to agree But this is what is I think this is the nut that if disantis wants the libertarian vote This is what he has to figure out and it's also just to return to the disney example for a second because You know, what what happened there is that disney had there's a basically privatized version of government running this area around disney and then Disney came the disney ceo came out against this education law You can agree or disagree But that's his right as a private citizen And then they decided to take a special look at this and I interviewed the lawmaker behind this and he told me that you know There's all this pressure For companies to go woke so they're going to learn that in florida there's consequences for that So they're out there making statements like this disantis every day has been Making statements that disney is just jotting down for their court case to show that it's retribution like anyone who's looking at the situation Can see it's retribution and it's not just for disney. There's other companies. There's uh air bnb He went after them because he didn't like that they pulled out of operation their operations out of the west bank in isreal uh, there's uh the stop woke act where they prescribed they said that companies could not engage in certain types of diversity trainings and You know, we can have that debate about the public sphere and what's appropriate in public schools but my problem is that disantis often just erases that Or just glosses over that public private distinction and I find it's Disturbing for somebody who's being considered uh to move up to the presidential level. Yeah, I truly mean this respectfully guys I hope it will come across that way But this is why libertarians don't make inroads politically Because i'm not saying that you're completely wrong on the at the idea level philosophically what you're saying Desantis fighting against diversity in our schools, you know, di diversity equity and inclusion It's the most anti-american actually anti-constitutional idea that you would be hiring certainly that the government would be doing it Hiring based on sexuality and skin color and everything else So if the because then otherwise it sends it seems to me that maybe and maybe this is true Zach perhaps You're more of an anarchist that they're real that the government should sort of never do anything You know because because otherwise if the government never does anything Look again. I said this earlier, but look again. What woke has accomplished just in the last five years It has demolished basically everything We have the democrat party is basically run by racists at this point and people who want reparations And all all of this craziness Finally someone has come in and said i'm going to do my best to clean this stuff up now We can we can riddle and we could do it for the next hour if you want riddle every little decision down But on one hand complicated though, is it The question really is should someone be allowed to run a private woke school or a private company that is quote unquote woke Should that be allowed or should the government do something about no? Of course, you can run a you can run a private woke company Of course you can but you don't necessarily get special benefits from the government again Disney had special benefits at the end of this they are going to be treated like everybody else Which i'm pretty sure is a very libertarian principle. You would want all corporations to be treated exactly the same way Uh, let's talk about kovat. Um, zack. Do you want to play the clip? Uh, because this is something where I think there's substantial agreement that uh DeSantis's response to kovat, which he did, uh, you know over a lot of press Uh, kind of outpouring of anger and fear. Uh, do you want to play the clip from his twitter, uh, space? But in florida, we proved it could be done We chose facts over fear Education over indoctrination law in order over rioting and disorder We held the line when freedom hung in the balance and we're thriving as a result florida's the nation's fastest growing state We're number one in net in migration Number one in new business formations recently ranked number one in education We have a 50 year low crime rate and one of the lowest tax and debt per capita in america But we also understand governing is not entertainment. It's not about building a brand or virtue signaling It is about delivering results Let's uh, you guys both, uh, lived on Uh, you guys both lived in california under gavin newson california had the first kind of wide scale Uh shelter at you know in home, uh shelter in place, uh kind of restrictions and whatnot and you moved to florida Dave what was the what was the difference, uh, you know living in california versus living in florida during covet Yeah, well first off, you know that I uh, it's a beautiful sort of uh Come back to my story because the thing that woke me up originally to a lot of the leftism very famously Was that interview that I did about eight years ago with larry elder where he you know, sort of beat me senseless about systemic racism Larry i'm sure everybody knows who larry is he's mostly a libertarian actually I think now he calls himself a conservative, but black black libertarian conservative type thinker Anyway, he ended up running uh against gavin newson as everyone knows in that recall and I was campaigning with him So the guy who sort of woke me up politically seven eight years later I'm running with him opening for him at events to get rid of gavin newson The recall election, which obviously didn't turn out well. I believe it was on uh, September 12th if i'm not mistaken of 2021 three days later I was audited by the state of california after running against gavin newson very publicly Uh, and I put my house for sale that day and I was gone, uh, you know, basically two and a half months later in december Everyone gets how draconian and horrible the lockdowns were and and the inconsistencies and the fake Vax passports that people were using. I am not vaccinated. I am very proudly not vaccinated I think one of the best moments of my career ever. I was on Fox la tv debating gloria allred who is supposed to be a civil rights lawyer About vaxes and she dared to say she's demanding everyone get vaxed a civil rights lawyer And she dared to ask me if I was vaxed. So I asked her if she went the last time She got laid was because I think those things are equally as Relevant, uh, you have no right to know what anyone's done with their personal medical history California was absolutely horrible on top of what it ultimately does to the human spirit Which is why la is now an absolute dump and san francisco is a zombie apocalypse Although that has a lot to do with drugs and a bunch more of progressive policies And then on I think it was december 17th or so 2021 I landed in florida and I took a video of it. That's on my twitter and I'm not kidding guys I felt something lift off my chest And the last year and a half of my life I also have two kids since then has been the most rewarding year of my life because I moved two companies here about a dozen people here Everyone is flourishing. Everyone's happy There's no state income tax. The fact that i'm saving money while living here. I've told the sanitas many times He should be charging an entry tax at this point Um, everything's working here and and people will not crumble when they bring it all back and and believe me They will I don't know if you saw the story yesterday But at the I believe it's the capital building in connecticut on there's a floor now the third floor You have to wear masks again I mean the level of stupidity is endless But there will be some places that will be bastions of freedom in florida. I would say is at the center of that Zach, what was your experience and and certainly the lockdowns as well as having kids and dealing with public schools and whatnot were And and overall costs You know were all factors in your move what how did you feel about the covet experience in california versus florida? I mean I relate to a lot of what dav was saying there I think I moved out maybe a month or two before he did it was right on the heels of the failed nuisance recall election and It I felt that similar you know kind of Breathing easy once I stepped into the sunshine state. So I have you know nothing bad to say about florida It's a it's a wonderful place to live my concern is really that This is the way that This is the beauty of our federalist system is that Dave and I were able to vote with our feet so to speak and and get out and My worry about the desantis campaign to some degree is like their campaigning kind of like on make up make america florida And I think it's got to be with the cultural divisions that we have right now It's got to be a little bit more like let florida be florida let california be california let new york be new york And don't try to bring the you know the types of laws the types of Restrictions on abortion for instance might be more palatable here in florida than they would be on the federal level and I'm not sure I haven't been convinced that you know desantis is the kind of federal less or like strict constitutional less that I think Is really badly needed for the country at this point. Well, that that raises an interesting question. Dave You know, it's different running for governor And and it is amazing you you touch on this earlier Desantis squeaked in very you know with with the minimum amount of votes almost to become governor It's a very tight race, but then blew the doors off, you know in re-election I mean he won with what like 60 or 70 percent of the vote I mean it was a total blowout But there's a difference when you're running for president and you know, this is part of the question like does desantis Doing what he did in florida. Does that make sense on a national level? The reason the reason that I think it does and zack I actually understand what you're saying where to me if you say make up make america florida to me That sounds like the greatest thing ever right We're gonna live freely. We're gonna have safe streets and we're gonna have fire ants and coral snakes and alligators Yes The worst thing that's happened to me since I was in florida is about two weeks ago I heard a loud bang in the backyard and an iguana a huge iguana probably like, you know They're like four feet when they're this way it fell out of the tree My dog got it blood flying all over the place and then I ripped the iguana out I threw him in the pool and he swam around he cleaned himself up saltwater pool and he's okay That's the most that's the most horrific thing that has happened to me in florida Look, I understand if you're if you're a californian lefty living in cal, you know in Berkeley, you're not going to be thrilled to hear that california might turn into florida But what I think desantis really means by that and what I think most people understand by make america florida Is how about we just clean up america a little bit? How about we make sure that we have proper laws so that our cities don't become all of the blue cities We can do it seattle portland chicago new york la san francisco etc etc They're all democrat run and they're all disasters Why is it that florida which I think has the 13th largest gdp in the world has very small amount of debt Despite having no income tax. Why is it that we are able to Take these 1 million new refugees from california and elsewhere and put them into the system here and our infrastructure has In collapsed. Yes. We do in southeast florida where I am miami. We have a lot of traffic But you know what he also escalated. I think seven massive infrastructure projects that were 20 year projects To be seven year projects. So we're building like crazy. He's cutting red tape so that we can really do about the things that are specifically National in scott because you know the cities, you know cities, you know, they're they're local issues mostly It's not the federal government. But you you talk if florida can handle a million people moving there Why can't america, you know a country of 330 million 350 million? Handle a million illegal immigrants coming every year. Um, you know what? DeSantis is very anti immigration. Uh, he you know, you know, and he can talk about it as illegal or legal He seems to be against that. Zach mentioned, you know, when the uh, the rovers is wade was repealed He said hey, i'm going to enforce florida's 15 week ban But then he very quickly went along with squeezing it down to six weeks. Um, you know Should there be a national ban on abortion because that's where no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no So I mean, but these are these this is the difference between being a governor of a particular state And then running the country sure well first off I mean, it's not within the purview of the president to decide whether there's a national abortion ban or not I mean, I fact I think that I happen to be pro-choice. I'm guessing you guys are to some extent I was completely fine with the 15 weeks actually My personal preference would be at about 12 weeks But having been in florida, this is one place that I do have a personal difference with him Having been in florida for the last year and a half and been to basically every republican event and conservative event And plenty of things with the santa's I never heard anyone talking about abortion because it was basically like, you know What we're pretty we're mostly a pro-life state, but we're taking the same position of 15 Nobody's really screaming about it. Let's let it be now that being said at several events I heard the santa's publicly talk about how his personal belief Was different that he would say from my catholic faith dictates that I am pro-life Uh, he but I did hear him say several times that he didn't he didn't feel that he was going to move the 15 week thing So I don't know exactly what happened there. That one might be playing politics a little bit Because if he thought he was running for president, you want to run to the right of trump So that that might be but I can't speak for him. I'm just telling you what I know I mean the case that you're making here with regards to florida and kind of transposing that to the The presidency is that it's competence that he's run florida as a competent executive and that seems to be The way that he's trying to contrast himself with someone like donald trump. He's trying to say I'm I get it done He kind of mentions it in that that twitter space clip. We played earlier, you know We're not about performative politics. We're about results and I'm I'm curious, uh, you know as someone who supported donald trump in the past What your reaction has been to the way trump has absorbed the DeSantis announcement. We have a clip here from donald trump. I'm going to play in just a second That I think kind of illustrates the the general tenor and tone that trump has taken so far So let's play that and then get dave's reaction Rob the sanctimonious and his poll numbers are dropping like a rock I would almost be inclined to say These are record falls The question is rob just young and experienced and naive or more troubling Is he a fool who has no idea what the hell he's doing? How about the fact that he had the third most deaths of any State having to do with the china virus or covet even kwamo did better He was number four and look at disney and what a mess it is Could have worked out an easy settlement, but no he wanted to show the fake news how tough a guy he is Thoughts I mean everything he said there pardon my french was just a load of shit and we all know it and it's like What i'm sick of with trump at this point. I don't know why this clip is like even though i've seen it 20 times It's particularly bothering me at the moment. I've had a lot of coffee Um, is that we he's a magician who we've seen all the tricks already and he keeps doing the same tricks And we keep pretending as if we don't know what's going on. There is a card up his sleeve I can't believe it first off can can either one of you i've been trying to settle this on the show Why is somehow calling someone rob worse than calling them rob? Let's do that one first Does anyone does that make sense? I think it's like he's robbing people. He's Okay, all right fine. So he's robbing people. All right, that's one and then now to sanctimonious I mean if trump knew what the word sanctimonious was or sanctimony was trump is far more sanctimonious Which is sort of fake virtue than than von de santis is Next thing he fought this we've already done the disney thing. So you know my my feelings on that And as far as the poll numbers and and the name calling and all that, you know generally speaking When you're 30 points as trump likes to believe he's 30 points ahead. He's 40 points ahead blah, blah, blah You don't relentlessly every day have you and every single one of your surrogates Lying repeatedly just de santis is a rhino and a globalist and he sorrows back then poll ryan back Lying about absolutely everything if you were so Confident that you were in the lead the way that you purport to be So I think there's a lot of things going on here, but zack to your point. I did support trump last time I am glad that I did it. I took a lot of heat for doing it. It was not easy to do in la I believe it was absolutely the right thing to do I think he was for the most part an extremely good president But that doesn't mean he should be king and god emperor forever There is a better choice right now. I think I've made my case fairly well here And and that should be obvious to most people So I think the choice for people if you're if you're going to vote republic in one way or another You know, you're a libertarian. You've sort of had it with all these people But you accept that, you know, it's not going to be gary johnson again or something What you have to decide is For whatever your concerns are, let's say on the school choice thing that you brought up before nick Let's let's just say even that you're more right on that than I am. Let's just pretend that's that's just the case empirically You have to decide. Okay. If desantis has done all of these other things and maybe i'm not completely with him on this I should probably vote for him because a it'll stop the socialists and the communists and god knows what's coming behind biden But the other opportunity and I think this is what I think when when some libertarians are frustrated with me I think this is what it hinges on It seems obvious to me that for for people like us who have mostly libertarian beliefs and you just want the government out of your life We have a chance right now to take a guy like desantis and be in the libertarian wing of that movement And hopefully when it comes to something like school choice Uh, we can hopefully work with him a little bit there and I think he's been amenable to that And I think that that's fairly obvious. So that that's a political calculation Rather than sort of a philosophical calculation But I think that that's what a wide tent would do. We're never I assure you I'm never going to find desantis is as close to a perfect candidate that i'm going to find But but you're never going to find the perfect candidate and and libertarians especially will never find the perfect candidate So what you want to find is someone who's kind of ballpark there And then work with them to the best extent and I think that you will find his campaign very open to that um, I Think that's that's a very pragmatic way to look at it And that's partly why we're having these kinds of conversations because we want to hash out and and you know I don't know what i'm going to do I don't know which way i'm going to vote. I don't know if i'm going to you know vote for desantis I'm certainly not going to vote for trump Probably not for biden But uh, you know, we want to be airing our our serious Problems with with this candidate and and I should also just mention real quick that You know trump's claim about um, covid deaths in florida versus new york We don't want to just let that slide. Um, you know, he's saying new york had the fourth most and For the third well that aligns exactly with population if if you look at the Population adjust. This is the age adjusted covid 19 death rate florida new york california And age adjusted is important because we all know that the risk Goes way up the older you get and florida's age adjusted death rate was 245 per hundred thousand New york's was 315 or sorry 311 california's 242. So california florida about the same new york Worst so i mean trump No, of course, he's of course, he's lying about that but you also have to understand right So when you age adjust florida has the second oldest population, but florida also fought to remain free So it's not necessarily about comparing deaths Because life is not just about death life is about freedom actually right life is about your ability to live So he defended the ability to live and if at the end of the day with the second oldest population It caused a few more deaths and i'm not even saying that it did That's a that's actually something that we should all sit with and think about That do you want your government to only look at numbers and look at you as a cognizant system That it can just move around as it sees fit and decide when you go outside or not I just want yeah go. No. Thank you that Wonderful, I just wanted to go to a couple of reader comments and questions Joseph now says i'm a lifelong florida resident who voted for desantis despite typically voting libertarian At a national level his comments on criminal justice concern me Will ours ever see the light on that issue? chase oliver who was a libertarian party Senate candidate in georgia who forced a runoff between herschel walker Who's you know one of the dumbest and most trump approved candidates in history? He writes if dave is a classical liberal as he claims Why would he support desantis who has made so many anti liberal policies a centerpiece of his brand Assaults on free speech and expression for instance. I think we've covered some of that, but I think yeah, I mean, what is it? Chase should government He said should government be used as a weapon to attack corporations Desantis didn't get rid of the income tax in florida. He obviously came in sketch therapy paid two dollars to Say why is ron loving speech laws speech equals nuisance neocon ron loves red red flag and speech laws week on first amendment and second amendment Thank you sketch therapy for paying a total of four dollars for those two comments. Let me ask A question and this goes to the difference between running florida and running the country Desantis where do you think he is on foreign policy dave and this is something where trump? I think actually Had a powerful effect and generally a better effect on the republican party than he often has given credit for because He pulled back from a kind of neocon neoconservative imperialist world World view of the idea of america is the indispensable nation that has to be fighting every war everywhere, etc Where do you think desantis is falling on that kind of issue? Well, let me just give credit where credit's due i'm with you trump did an absolutely incredible job on foreign policy I mean all of the peace deals in the middle east which everyone used to be for peace in the middle east It was something we kind of all agreed on these deals are a hundred percent because of trump And and then of course, you know, he got Ambassador freeman and a whole bunch of other people to make them happen But these were because of trump's foreign policy. We did not get into extra wars We certainly I don't think would be in the ukraine war right now. We're in it or not in it We don't declare war anymore. We just fund wars. I mean, it's all nonsense But but i'm fairly certain that trump would not be doing this I think he would have actually eventually gotten us out of afghanistan in a much more competent way than than the disaster That happened a couple august to go I think desantis is going to be pretty freaking close to that again He was part of the freedom caucus think about the guys in congress right now who are his biggest supporters thomas massi I mean, give me a guy you guys like more than thomas massi Chip roy give me a guy you like more than chip roy like we'll find out what senators go his way But I have a feeling that ten crews and uh, ran paul are going to be heading in his direction too These are these are far off. What about what is his relationship with little marco? Marco rubio, um, I did one event that I brought them both on stage I I don't know personally did I pretend that the other one wasn't there or No, no, I mean we all we all said it sounds like you are the principal of a high school I mean you are like you're running all sorts of funny events and battle of the bands No, look, I think my guess is I this one I actually don't know what the answer is in terms of what their relationships like they certainly have a disagreement on foreign policy Right, so marco marcos definitely more on sort of a more old school What you might call a neocon policy on that I I don't think there's any reason to think that desantis is in that camp You know there was the uh the statement that he issued on ukraine to tucker, which he did slightly Shift when he talked to peers people got there but went really crazy about that but he said nothing about nation building He's gone very in on why are we funding these endless things? I think you know, this is also where to me and I and I hope I would do this with any candidate He's a governor give the guy a chance to lay it out. I don't think you weren't but I think this is where you have to give Him a little bit of chance. He's done a good job here We have a I think a very good sense of what his political philosophy is and now you have to let that Scale into the other realms that a governor is not usually taking care of like foreign policy I just want to point out that magnum norse pay ten dollars on youtube. Thank you magnum norse. I uh Regret only that that's fiat currency But he writes or she they write is trump not the most libertarian president in our lifetime He didn't start any wars and he stopped wars. He also expanded bombing Or you know the aid in Yemen and whatnot, but You know, I let me ask this of either of you Um, you know, we hear this a lot that trump was the most libertarian president I don't get that but uh, do either of you have a strong or interesting reaction to that statement I mean real quick. He look he did do tax cuts for sure He tried to leave a lot of things up to the states when it came to covet not all of the things But a decent amount of them he did scale back some of some of the war stuff So yes in essence did he do some of the pieces? I'll tell you one of the reasons that I came around on trump over the years was because rand paul really liked him And I and was one of his main backers in the senate and I thought okay rand paul Who I consider to be as principled as you can be if you're going to be in the senate Like he's defending trump more than anybody so that I felt gave me a little room to be like, okay There's there's something there with this guy. Yeah, uh, he did increase spending massively even before covet and then after so for me Tax cuts are always interesting and any he loosened regulations or signaled That america was more open for business than it had been but the spending is always problematic and You know, and this is something just a standard. I think accountant Based, uh, you know worry, but also a libertarian one none of these guys who's talking about entitlement spending in a way That we need to if if we're if we want to keep america Going over the long haul um sack. Do you have anything? Yeah, I mean I I wonder about you know, we have one last clip. We wanted to play here which speaks to the idea that none of these candidates Are really speaking to some of the most important issues that are facing our country my opinion and the the the social Uh, the the culture wars the the wokeness wars May in fact just be kind of a distraction from those more fundamental issues. It's a point that Uh, your friend, uh, peter teal recently made on barry wisest podcast I want to play that clip real quick and get your reaction to Uh teal statement as you know another uh fellow floridian The focus on identity politics on the woke religion, you know is probably a distraction from stagnation It's a distraction from economics. It's a distraction from the way in which uh, the younger generation in the u.s Is probably gonna have a hard time having as a good standard of living as their parents And so there's a set of issues. We do not want to talk about, you know I think desantis would make a terrific president if he's the republican nominee. I will strongly support him in 2024 But I I do worry that uh focusing on on the woke issue as ground zero is is not quite enough So, I mean, I Agree pretty much with peter teal that while there's aspects of these Culture wars that are important and worth discussing that they they shouldn't really be central and we've got bigger fish to fry There's the lagging economic growth inflation A lot flows from from that, but there's also the degradation of our institutions and in some sense Like I was saying before what we really need is a strict constitutionalists to kind of restore the balance of powers No, no be very clear about where state action ends and I'm not exactly sure that desantis is that and maybe he's better than the alternatives on offer at the moment But uh, I just think it's always worth sticking to our principles and pointing out how far short just about every modern politician Falls, but otherwise there's really no path towards something better if we don't kind of keep our eye on the ball Sure. Well, first off, I just think desantis is your guy I think you're going to begrudgingly I guess or or maybe a little slower get there, but it just seems obvious to me I mean, I think you will find somebody that has an absolute respect for the constitution And I you know some of the comments that you read there, nick I mean people are saying he's going after free speech or something like what can't you say in florida? You can say whatever you want. Okay. Um specifically on teal He happens to be a good friend of mine. So let me not hide that You know, I believe that you I like him a lot and I think he's a brilliant thinker obviously But I believe that you can walk and chew gum at the same time and you can deal with the woke stuff Which by the way zack when you deal with the woke stuff you start fixing the institutions because the institutions you're worried about They're being destroyed by woke. They're being destroyed by diversity equity and inclusion So you can do that at the same time you then can do all of the things that have led florida to be The freest and most popular uh prosperous state in the union and and the proof is only in the three-fingered pudding It's here. Just look what's going on in florida. So if you were to say to me Well, he's focusing on woke. So now look what's happening florida's cities are being overrun by drugs and homeless people Well, then we might have an issue if or or some other version, but it's actually all working here So I I think that that argument is a little Thin to me when you just compare it with the facts on the ground I just can the zeal with which you prosecute that war can often the war on woke can often cause you to Engage and just really gross state overreach in the ways we've we've already talked about before I guess we we just disagree on whether that that constitutes state overreach. It's the same thing with um, you know cleaning up crime or cleaning or you know, uh Controlling the border these all these things all sound good and orderly But there's ways that if you uh, don't have a strict fidelity to the rule of law That they can go horribly bad and an authoritarian I mean, we didn't even really get a chance to go much into immigration But some of how that's played out here has uh been alarming whether it's deporting people to Martha's or you know moving people from Texas to Martha's vineyard or oh, I think it's great. I think it's great No, that's I I find it reprehensible to be quite I mean no no no no no no to use to use people as props like that and the rhetoric around immigration I you know this for me is one of the biggest problems I have with the republican party and I and I don't pretend that the democratic party is good on immigration, but You know my grandparents. I'm sitting. I'm talking to you from new york city where my grandparents showed up 100 years ago They would not be allowed in the country. Uh, you know now and the anger at immigrants is just wrong I think the republican party is making a huge mistake by being so zealously anti-immigrant But well first up. I don't think they're anti-immigrant. I think they're anti-immigrant. I think they're anti- Donald Trump Donald Trump wanted to reduce and he said it constantly I want to reduce legal immigration as well as illegal immigration Ron DeSantis is not talking about legal immigration He's talking only talks about immigration as an illegal phenomenon And drugs are being smuggled across the Mexican border these that has nothing to do with Policy it has to do with a failure of immigration policy of letting people who want to come here and Participate and contribute to American life. So and if we were If we're gonna want economic growth immigration is going to be a big part of that So I think there's just um, you know, they're some of the The focus the focal points are just wrong at the moment and from my point of view Yeah, so it's unfortunate that we're I think we're kind of running out of time here We got a whole different thing on immigration because I because I because this is where I'm definitely not fully in line with the libertarians I I believe that we absolutely should have a fair a strong border once you once you are here illegally You've already broken the law. We then have to figure out what to do about that Trump was far more for amnesty than DeSantis was but nick I would be curious I don't know the answer to this but when you mentioned your grandparents a hundred years ago I'm guessing they either came from italy or or ireland probably ireland and italy. Yes Okay, that was pretty solid of me But but they were legal when they came to to ellis island They were they were legal because there was as long as you weren't chinese or japanese or or south asian You could get into the country my Italian grandmother and this is this is meaningful I think she had her first child in america Got homesick went home to italy and then couldn't get back in the country because the laws changed And she was out of the country for seven years because overnight the government said, you know what italians are, you know bad They make bad americans We are going through a spasm of anti-immigrant sentiment Which is not good, you know, and we are not doing anything to actually Fix legal immigration. There is effectively no way if you're mexican and you're not related to somebody Or you're not a millionaire. There's no way to get in the country legally That's going to breed illegal immigration because the you know, the motivation to come here is not american immigration laws It's your situation in your home country. It's a larger conversation But dav i i mean i think to bring it back to this question about wokeness and whatnot. I think the That the willingness of disantis and he's certainly not alone on this There's nobody on the republican side and effectively nobody on the democratic side who's willing to say You know what? I believe in legal immigration And here's how i'm going to fix that as well as secure the border if the border can be secure And if there's a door in it people will file, you know, they'll line up to go through the door Nobody wants to come here illegally pay a coyote Get raped and then have to work in the black market with the threat of being sent home Like everybody here is well, you know, of course people want to come here legally Yeah, I I think I look I can't speak for disantis on this one And I think he will this is another one where I think he will lay out more policy immigration A little more clearly as time goes on If but if we're if we're basically agreeing that we should have an we should have a border That is a defensible border and then a very clean and clear policy Now we may disagree slightly on the let's say on the numbers of people or whatever or what What the reasons are that they can get amnesty or whatever That's fine But if I think the first agreement that you just have if you believe in nation states If you believe that there's a difference between the united states and mexico and the united states and canada And we have borders then to me you have to have secure borders And then you have to have clean and clear laws as to who can come in when and why And if we do some of that not easy to do we still have to deal with the 12 million people who are here illegally already And what does that do because should they be you know in essence granted pass Breaking the law in the first place. So there's a lot there that I would say that's a whole other other show But I but I may not fall fully in the libertarian. Oh, no, that which I'm not expecting you to Dave rubin, thank you so much for joining us to talk about uh ronda santa's florida your your political hagiara from the young turks To uh, you know to where you are now. Thanks so much and uh, we'll look forward to talking to you again Now to florida. What the hell are you doing in new york? Are you all right? You know what? It's I it's the city I was born in and I suspect it's the city I'll die in and I'm gonna die of old age not of random street crime pretty sure you could enjoy yourself for another 40 years In florida, and then we'll send you back to new york to die. I mean, all right. I'll text you Thanks very much. Thanks guys Okay, so zack. Yeah, we have a bunch of uh listener questions. I think that we want to There's a $50 question. Oh, holy moly magnum norse Big spender we all wish on a star like dave smith But we have to live in reality if we make trump understand what we want. I believe he will do it Okay, keep on believing but uh, I will say, you know, uh, don't stop believing The the libertarian party is obviously another x-factor for us when we're Deciding how we as libertarians are gonna vote. Um, my understanding is is dave smith has declared his is candid to see We'll see what else happens there, but you know, it's It's uh, I have become very cynical about national level politics So I'm I guess more open to dave Dave rubin's argument than than I ever have been that we kind of just at some point just have to make a choice between really imperfect Offerings, um, but I think it is incumbent on us to even if we make that choice, you know hold Try to hold people to the highest standard possible. I you know, one of the things I'll say is, um, you know Every president going forward or almost in every election going forward like politicians need every vote And I think part of the function of reason As well as the libertarian movement and the libertarian party and these are all distinct things obviously Is to extract as much, uh, you know, um concessions out of mainstream parties So it may be, you know, that libertarians make up, you know, and we matt welch and I have written about this and you know Other people have tried to document it anywhere from about five to 15 percent of the of the voting population can be considered libertarian Meaning, you know, they're generally for limited government socially liberal fiscally conservative. However, you want to slice that up Is you know, Donald trump the republicans need to pay attention to libertarians because Donald trump in two elections got 46 and change of the vote He needs 50 percent any republican needs 50 to you know, more percent of the vote They can get libertarians if they say we are going to limit the government We're going to reduce overseas adventurism. We're going to cut spending We're going to cut regulation We're going to be more open to live and let live all of these types of things and you know, the democratic party also needs us And it's you know, it's up to us to make as much noise to say not that our votes are for sale but like if you Get in line with a general libertarian principle about more freedom And allowing a live and let live world and creating the institutions and the policies that exemplify that You know, we're going to give you a long run Let's look at one last question here This is a bit of a long one, but I can summarize the beginning of it from dan jj This is another place where libertarians lose me. What ideals of the libertarian are represented in the progressive democrat party The progressive doesn't stop at equal rights for transgender people It is a start point and they always take the next leap Which is inevitable with the progressive democrat party, which is to say they deserve special privileges so What do you think about that notion that uh, there's You know The transgender discussion is probably a bit too far afield to go into right now, but just the notion that There is no hope for libertarians on the progressive side of the ledger that we shouldn't even Be considering anything over there that our choices are Basically to look at the republicans or or a long shot libertarian candidate. Yeah. Yeah I I tend to disagree in the sense of like if we're talking about progressive democrat party and I you know, I got to tell you I always bristle at you know, the democrat party, which is it started out As a as a conscious call back to joe mccarthy and him Railing against democrats rather than saying the democratic party, etc But the fact of the matter is on a lot of lifestyle issues that I take seriously things like gay rights Things like immigration Things like free speech the democratic party has as good or better a drug reform criminal justice reform has as good Or better a legacy than the republican party neither of these I don't I don't look at one and say like, oh, yeah, you know One of them is clearly better than the other The progressive wing of the democratic party is generally pretty awful But you will find moments when people like alexandra acasio-cortez and matt gates, you know, you know, who are like very, you know Very much on different points Of the political spectrum come together to support certain things So there are elements of the democratic party that I think, you know When they come to a policy that I agree with I think they deserve to be Um, you know championed or valorized for that. So yeah, and there's individual Democrats out there who are more who are, you know, somewhat Libertarian-ish figures whether you're talking about jared polis in colorado who just signed a statewide psychedelics legalization into effect and has been good on tech policy and even on covet for a blue state governor And there's, you know, civil libertarians like ron wyden in the senate So, you know, none of these people are getting promoted to the front of the party right now It seems like so it's it's hard to get excited about anyone, you know, coming to the four on the For the presidential. I I'll add to, you know, there's uh, bernie sanders for a long time I don't know what it's like now and also the n r a doesn't quite matter but You know, for most of his career, bernie sanders had like a hundred percent rating from the n r a because If you're from vermont, you're actually in favor of most gun federal gun control Or repeal of a lot of federal gun control legislation So it gets, you know, it's more complicated than it seems and I'm also And i'm not sure this gets to the to the listeners or the viewers question Quite in the way that they might have intended it But it's, you know, the rhetoric of the republican party to say we are the party of limited government and yet They constantly do deficit spending and you know, just in the 21st century alone No president and no administration was more ruinous to libertarian values. I think then george w bush He absolutely blew out the budget. He increased real Spending overall total spending by 50 percent. He prosecuted He pushed us into two wars that were disastrous And absolutely terrible He financed that for as long as he could through supplemental and emergency appropriations bill So it didn't go through actual budgeting process. He you know Created ubiquitous surveillance programs that barack obama, you know continued and expanded in significant ways so it's not one or the other but The republican party Used to talk going back to ronald reagan You would talk a libertarian rhetoric, but they have never lived up to it And at a certain point, especially if we do have more of a sociological relationship to republicans We've got to hold them accountable. It's just it's way way way past the time to say to libertarians It's like, you know, just vote for us this time and we'll get around to some of your priorities The fact of the matter is is that the republican party has, you know taken libertarian votes and sympathies Or empathies for granted and like that has to stop donald trump was you know, and i i took a lot of shit from uh libertarians and from reason staffers because I did not think that donald trump was this, you know the the anti christ or anything But he massively increased spending and in in significant ways he increased the reach of government into everyday life That is deeply problematic even if he wasn't perfect, but we are so so far past the moment Where uh, you know, i'm so far past the moment where uh, you know, because somebody mumbles something about fridger keiger Ludwig von mesis, uh, you know, you oh, yeah, I know we're we're in the same club We're not um, and I also, you know one of the most interesting things and Zach, I'll give you the last word to uh, you know talk about what you want to one of the most interesting things that Dave talked about just in passing is this generational issue and I you know, i'm turning 60 in august. I am a late, you know The second the last year of the baby boom the baby boom Is over uh in in the sense of like it is declining the sun is setting on the baby boomers and gen x I'm sorry to tell gen x's because they never really had their day moment in the sun But things, you know the the shift that is coming as millennials and gen z move into actual positions of power Is going to be rocking, you know politics and culture for the next 10 or 20 years Um, and it's going to yield something really interesting because in the end I would argue that people like ron desantis and a of c may ultimately Have more in common You know then they do with people who are ideologically on their side because every Generational shift, um, and you know millennials and gen z combined are bigger than the baby boom and gen x You know that you know Generations have more in common, you know with with members of that cohort than they do with Ideologies that you know are kind of you know across the generation So I think to say that's a big right. So he's like the one he's there. I guess maybe is he I I thought he was actually Technically a millennial, but I'm not sure you might be right. That might he might be the best hope for Gen X to have a president. Yeah. Well, you know to close out I guess it's just the issue that I think is important to both of us and a lot of libertarians that Continues to go unaddressed by anyone and either major party is government spending national debt the risks that that poses to the future of the country and That is something that we've had the big Rama swami on there And he kind of made the case that we're just going to grow our way out of it And you made a great follow-up that Dissects the logic there and shows that actually that that's not really possible So I'd point people to that so that they don't fall for that kind of trick. Um, I haven't heard You know much out of DeSantis on this issue Trump is attacking DeSantis for years ago suggesting mild reforms to entitlements So these issues are still, you know, some of these central issues are still not being Directly addressed by no doubt it and we know for a fact This is where I'm talking about the generational Solidarity Donald Trump and Joe Biden and all politicians of their age any politician over 65 Has, you know said we will never touch a penny of social security or medicare And if you are committed to that you are committed to the financial destruction of america Yeah, so if there's any if there's any presidential candidates out there who Do you want to put that at the at the front of their platform? And they want to come speak with us are we're wide open you're you're welcome any time and I thought the conversation with Dave was fruitful and You know, he he made the strongest case that that he could and Our viewers can decide for themselves whether that was persuasive or not So thank you Dave for joining us and thank you nick for hosting the conversation Thank you. See you next week. See you next week