 on the run like you can just like swap out like it's it's like comparable to an Einstein's or a Noah's or something like that so you're not going to get yeah definitely an Einstein's for sure I totally put it in that class but it's like a good super over sweet coffee that you don't have to mix yourself that's the biggest thing yeah and and and the donuts are are fair they're never yeah they're good they're never bad I was going to dunk in a bunch when Eileen was living in New York for a month and I went out to visit her I would just go go there to grab some coffee you know half a block away it was great get a don't get a donut get a coffee I had the breakfast a couple of times good good good I mean it's it's certainly like the worst thing for you but like oh no it's not good for you at all yeah I mean the coffee isn't bad for you except if you put sugar in it I guess yeah or cream I drink my coffee black though so I don't get the benefit of that dunk in preparation yeah see that's now I only drink it black too except when I go to Dunkin Donuts when I get it sweet and light and and it's like almost it's it's way too creamy for me but I still the the nostalgia allows me to power through all right so I raised the difficulty level for us on today's show by never actually assigning the articles until just now so we're all going in cold that's cool and I swapped one out at the last minute which is the last one in there by the way I didn't realize on that uber story that that Annie Gauss was the one who broke uh uh the this story yeah one of them is is all like totally one source on on Annie Gauss's twitter that's amazing we got to get any Gauss back on yeah I should I should call her back and tell her that oh all right I probably shouldn't publicly I'll paint her all right uh you guys ready yeah yes okay here we go now the daily tech news show is powered by its audience and made Texans not outside organizations to support the daily tech news show visit daily tech news show dot com forward slash support this is the daily tech news for thursday december 15th 2016 i'm tom mary joining me my co-host on the thursday's justin robert young is back in the saddle you're back back in the saddle again not what i was expecting but also not disappointed at all well i mean that'll if you hated my singing please uh ad reply to me justin are young and just uh it is always a pleasure to be back and I got this sense today that everybody in silicon valley is just trying to clear literally everything off their plate until they leave for the holiday break it was the big dump of news today wasn't it everybody just push it whatever bad news good news in between news sneak previews just whatever we're all taking a long weekend and it starts tomorrow janice derrick i want these press releases out by 11 is just push it who knows who cares whatever you're moving along yeah uh we're going to talk mostly about the big news from facebook their new fake news identification system and why justin thinks that opens a portal to hell uh that that is our portal to hell hashtag hell portal uh a couple of of dribs and drabs before we get to the top stories twitter announced it's cutting off access to geospatial intelligence data uh that's being sold to those fusion centers police intelligence centers by data minor verizon went back and said we will push an update to note sevens we're just going to wait until january fifth to do it that will disable charging and shut down wireless radios it's around the time that all the rest of the carriers are doing it anyway and uh super mario run launched on ios thursday if you've heard it's ten dollars and you go to the app store and download it for free don't think you took advantage of some cool glitch it's that way for everybody i only say that because i was at the vet this morning and i was like oh i got i got it for free there must be a glitch no you get the first three world tour levels for free and then it's an in-app purchase of ten dollars to unlock the rest of the levels as well as toad rally and kingdom builder and it's a one-time fee once you pay the ten dollars that's it that's good now yeah now here are some more top stories yahu announced wednesday that data provided by law enforcement in november indicated a security breach compromised more than one billion accounts in august 2013 the information accessed may have included names email addresses telephone numbers dates of birth hashed passwords but hashed with md5 which is like hashing something with tissue paper these days uh in some cases unencrypted security questions and answers were also possibly accessed they actually don't really know at this point uh this is a different breach from the one that was disclosed back on september 22nd yahu is notifying affected users and invalidating security questions yahu is if you didn't remember still in the process of being acquired by verizon who's seeing the price they're willing to pay go down by the minute justin and now uh the rumors are threatening to maybe walk away entirely so uh shares of yahu tank tanking today on on the possibility uh remote though it might be that verizon will walk away from this deal i mean when when when the first story broke which we need to caution is separate from this disclosure right uh my first thought was there is the way it was handled seemed to indicate and in a troubling indications indicators for me and and and my my my guidance going forward about the story was there's going to be a whole lot of what did you know and when did you know it now that we have yet another problem here i don't think it i don't think in and of itself this is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to a tech company especially one as old and robust as yahu but coming after the first one which i don't know if it was handled exactly as as best as they would have liked to and while verizon is literally just you know erasing zeros from a check uh you know like by the second it could not come at a worst time for yahu yeah it's it's not it's not good for the acquisition it's not good for marissa meyers uh reputation and it is really not good for even the yahu security people who are gone i mean the fact that they were hashing with md5 in august 2013 is the worst part of this story to me now granted we had some people say hey what do i do about this what you do about it is make sure that you change your yahu password especially if you haven't changed your yahu password since august 2013 my guess is most people have because of multiple breaches that have been reported not just the one in september but there was one a couple years ago as well uh but but definitely look into that and and make sure that you you know turn on some two-factor authentication if if you haven't already and uh and that's about it that's about all you can do at this point unless unless you were one of those people who was using the same password in multiple places then you need to go change them in those other places as well yeah yeah uh i mean what what really is even the takeaway at this point for yahu with now their second major security breach as they let they they look to get acquired you know i mean at this point now yeah you can put into play that maybe they don't and maybe yahu's has to forge ahead you know uh or look for another suitor but uh it just it just seems like like we're even kind of out of narrative for yahu right yeah uh i almost want to i always feel like hurry up verizon buy them hurry before they before they destroy themselves well and then if you're verizon the question's got to be like well you all right so we buy them we you're not going to fire everybody and replace them right like no just hopefully start fixing things yeah but the question is yeah uh is there deep institutional problems to this property that maybe an acquisition cannot fix that that well the the answer to the first part of that statement is yes there are certain there have been deep institutional problems since long before marissa meyer took over uh can verizon fix them or not anybody's guess the california department of motor vehicle sent a letter to uber wednesday telling it to stop it's illegal autonomous car tests in san francisco until it receives a permit the dmv said it will pursue legal action if uber does not comply uber says its cars are compliant because they cannot be driven without a human present at the same time the san francisco examiner uh a reported dashboard camera video of an uber autonomous car running a red light uber said the incident was due to a human error and the driver has been suspended now at least they're keeping their story straight it's humans it's humans in charge that's why we don't need a permit and it was a human's problem why we ran a red light yeah compare this to the rosy relationship they have with the steel city out there in uh in in fitsburg where the mayor comes out to cnvc to talk about how excited they are to have these cars out there on the road obviously this is home territory for uber who is based here in san francisco but you know it had been a little bit before we saw just a total you know a big poop storm of uber flagrantly flouting uh local ordinances right yeah and ben johnson was on the show yesterday from marketplace tech and pointed out like how uber is it of them to just start doing this without a permit because as of yesterday california had said we think you need a permit but they hadn't actually sent a letter threatening legal action yet uh that's not a big surprise that they did but how uber is it of it especially to san francisco which they've had at best a rocky relationship with to try to make the argument hey this is no different than a tesla autopilot this is no different than any cars auto assist it's just better and we require we have humans in the driver's seat the humans make the decisions and and to be fair this test according to all the the people who did it who wrote it up requires a human to intervene quite frequently it is not a level five autonomous car by any stretch so uber certainly has an argument in its favor if they weren't if they didn't have such a history of just breaking rules and asking for forgiveness later i i'd probably want to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one well i mean and and here's here's the big question because what is not in doubt is that uber looks at the dealings with local governments not in the same way that we look at our dealings with local governments right like we go to the dmv we submit our paperwork and if something doesn't come back the way we like it we complain loudly on twitter and we very politely refill out the same form uber looks at it as a war to be won and what is at stake is their growth and their very livelihood so this to me smells a lot like uber setting the the tone of the negotiation that we believe that these are ready to go right now to send us a letter if you don't think that that's the case and we can go from there now we can we can we can hash it out either through negotiations or through another legal route with the set motivations being we believe this is legal today you have now sent us a letter that's how we move forward John Barlow is a watch face developer for pebble he's also the developer advocate for pebble and is now a fitbit employee he posted to the pebble developer blog that the company is going to keep pebble software and services running through 2017 he's trying to rest people's concerns that stuff's going to be taken away right away that means the pebble sdk cloud pebble timeline api's firmware availability mobile apps developer portal and the pebble app store will all remain in service throughout the coming year the company is also trying to reduce app dependence on cloud services things like authentication analytics an app locker to ensure that core pebble functions will still work even when cloud services are discontinued at some point there are now four discord channels that have been set up for pebble community members who are interested in helping keep the pebble watch experience going so they're trying to get out in front and say no we really mean it we want to make sure people can keep using their pebbles we want to make sure that there is a community that will continue to support this even if fitbit can't fund it and there was an interview with the CEO of pebble where he said the reason he went with fitbit is they seem to be the one the most likely to keep pebble going so this seems to be all dovetailing into them saying we don't have a lot of money for it but we're doing our best to try to keep pebble users to be able to use their pebbles that always seemed like the best marriage between the two right because pebble certainly has albeit a small but vocal community of fans who very very very much enjoy the functionality of what those watches bring they did not bring in enough money to keep it going but as fitbit realizes that all of these fitness trackers are only getting the markets only getting more and more crowded and that price is going to fall further and further need to create different ways that they can maintain relevancy and and be divergent from other competing product products so in my mind I would almost be surprised if we don't see in the next year or two years fitbit with pebble os or with pebble features however they want to brand it and part of that is keeping this very active developer community going and supporting and and making this an exciting feature to bring to new fitbit absolutely it may be unlikely it certainly is difficult but if the pebble developers in the pebble community can make this happen fitbit might come away with a much better way to operate an operating system and a wearable operating system because you have such community involvement with it if they're smart they'll use that to their advantage right now there's a lot of angry people they've got to get past that but if they can which is not a given they could end up being a big winner in this and the community would too in that case well I mean because right now you've got a lot of app developers that are developing watch echoes for apple's watch right but as far as just dedicated for a watch like developer communities I mean pebble's kind of where it's at right now yeah uh time to say goodbye Justin now it's time to say goodbye uh to FCC chairman Tom Wheeler uh he announced that he will step down as chairman on January 20th when the U.S. inaugurates its new president the senate failed to confirm Jessica war sell to a new term on the FCC before it adjourned that will leave the commission with only three of five commissioners as of January 20th barring confirmations before then commissioner Ajit Pai has been rumored to be a choice to take over each chairman position man he might be Tom Wheeler but it was a real wild ride uh for him uh you know certainly in terms of our community uh you know all the hot takes when he first came in that the final decimation of the FCC it was was complete now that a telecom lobbyist had taken his stranglehold to the board and then obviously the net neutrality stuff giving him so giving him a far rosier picture within the uh the the tech community what with or the legacy of Tom Wheeler Tom Wheeler was a dealer he was that's the way I'll put it uh yeah he surprised a lot of people uh by putting through open internet guidelines that weren't didn't go as far as a lot of net neutrality advocates wanted them to but made the big step of reclassifying internet service as common carrier service in a way that tried to avoid the negatives it still remains to be seen if it really could avoid the negatives and most likely we'll never get to see it play out because the incoming administration while they can't just axe it on day one is likely to do everything they can to get rid of those open internet guidelines over the course of the next couple years that said part of the interesting thing of this I know I I'm the one who always tries to avoid the conspiracy theories and say well look what's really likely to happen is this and I know what I'm about to say is not likely to happen but they didn't confirm Jessica Rosenwarsall that means they only have three commissioners this of January 20th now they're probably going to confirm somebody before January 20th or at least nominate somebody but if the other democratic commissioner Minion Clyburn were to step down there would only be two commissioners which would leave them without a quorum which would leave the FCC unable to continue and then what and then it would just nothing could be changed like the FCC would continue I shouldn't say it would would continue but it would not be able to continue changing things propose it like they wouldn't have a commission that could vote on any changes or make any changes so it would freeze the FCC at that point there's got to be some mechanism to to put people on at least temporarily well no the mechanism is you nominate people and get them confirmed now this the reason this is unlikely to happen is like I said they're going to nominate somebody to replace Wheeler probably before the 20th certainly they could could just confirm Rosenwarsall before the 20th when the new congress sits that would require some fast moving though and we've seen stranger things happen the other thing is you don't have to nominate two democrats and two republicans necessarily I don't think if I'm wrong about that email me feedback at dailytechnewshow.com but you could just stack the deck with everybody from your party this is an underrated story I feel like like Tom Wheeler certainly a very interesting legacy an interesting legacy for somebody that I think a lot of people thought that that they had pegged when he first walked in and by the way him him announcing his resignation as of inauguration days it's not news like that that is expected that's what any FCC commissioner would do when there is a new incoming president from the opposing party that that's just normal it's it's all the other things around it that make it interesting yeah twitch opened a new content category today called IRL which allows streamers to speak in Irish accents no that's not what it does IRL stands for in real life it allows streamers to talk about anything they want for as long as they want service launched 2 p.m pacific Thursday which if you're watching live hasn't happened yet but I'm pretending okay partners can monetize their content through ads and subscriptions just like other streams and twitch says it will add live streaming to its mobile app sometime next year now the official launches 2 p.m. it's already out there right you can you can already use it that that launched at 10 2 p.m. is the press conference about it yeah so uh so what do you got what do you got on twitch real life I like I mean they they they had a good explanation because the first reaction to this is going to be oh so they're bringing back just in tv but the difference is uh twitch has a much better handle on community just in tv was sort of wide open we don't know what you're here for twitch is saying no we have we have a very good approach to saying we support people who have an active community and now we're going to open that up uh to two more topics but it's not the wild west the way justin was uh disclaimer my wife works at twitch so here's the deal uh this was something that was very very very very very much a requested by current partners people who stream a lot uh as well as viewers of of twitch which is the reason why they went in this direction but they want is to avoid the problems that they were having where partnered streamers would play video games for x amount of time and then go do something else that was technically outside of what they could do and so instead of being you know the over obnoxious dorm r.a. that's making sure that you're always doing exactly what you're doing they wanted to give people a chance to properly categorize themselves going forward which is really what the secret sauce of twitch is is that when justin tv was there it was literally just i mean the best thing that you could do to find something that you might want to watch was to memorize that oh i remember cool dude xxx streams these kinds of games or does these kinds of things i'll remember these bizarre names and then find them twitch has a very very smart and intuitive way that you can just find people who are playing heartstone or minecraft now vlogging will be on top of that the other thing that we did mention is that gaming talk shows is now just talk shows meaning daily tech news show could stream on there you can follow twitch.tv slash justin r young and find all the one mic shows that i do then i will now be streaming on twitch ultimately this is twitch and you know amazon as its parent company making their play for live as everybody else is doing right now it is no coincidence that they also let slip that their live streaming mobile app will be live next year this is part and parcel with what they want to do here they believe that their secret sauce is you're not just pushing it out to your social graph like you would on twitter or facebook that that you know anybody you've ever met might want to see you live no no no this is for people that are really dedicated to doing it and that already have communities that want to watch them spend any amount of time live many times hours and hours and hours and hours and hours so yes it is kind of justin tv but i think it's oversimplistic to just look at this and say okay well now it's back to what it was because i really they're not unlearning the lessons that they learned when they decided to put these restrictions in yeah and as somebody who makes content i look at this and think oh okay the the big reason i use hangouts for our video stream is because it does auto switching give me a tool like that on twitch i'll switch in a minute i have no other reason to stay in one place or another and it does seem that twitch is more actively supporting live streams i think that's understating it than youtube is at the same time the idea of just maybe going on and doing a one mic thing is attractive because twitch has dedicated community tools and and is focused on that kind of fostering of community and i think that's really interesting you know this also comes this week they launched their mod shield a tool as well to have better uh you know automated uh moderation you know i don't know obviously i'm biased uh but you know there i think that this is a very very wise move for them evernote announced a new privacy policy that will go into effect january 23 evernote wants to use machine learning to help users make sense of its own data and wants its employees to be able to ensure that machine learning is working properly so the new privacy policy will give some evernote employees the right to see users private notes evernote says only employees will have that have undergone a background checks will be able to view data and will not be able to view data encrypted by users users can also opt out of having notes used for machine learning so this is a classic right company decides they need to do something machine learning right it's a great idea everybody's going to love this you know the we can get in on that machine learning sauce have it do some really cool things with your notes and suggest organizations and and things you wouldn't have thought of and who isn't going to like that well we it's not perfect no machine learning algorithm is so we'll need to be able to monitor it okay yeah we'll have a couple of staffers on board to to make sure it's working every once in a while you might need to look at someone's notes and that that would violate our privacy policy but we're only doing it to make sure the machine learning you know we're not going into spy okay well let's let's tweak that privacy probably well people are going to get upset about that oh okay we'll let them opt out and everybody will be happy no uh there are the the usual number of i'm leaving evernote posts are appearing yeah you know i mean this is just like the the the the tail is old as time when it comes to uh these you know the tech companies tend to have a different view of what privacy should be for gone so you can get a better product and i don't blame them for having this point of view but this is pretty much the same argument that we're seeing around the uber tracking you as you leave your uber situation where for uber they're like hey wait you want us to be a smarter system where we can predict where you are and what you do so we can maybe even direct people or push some cars into heat map areas at certain times of day so you can get a quick a ruber ride and people in general sure yeah well that means doing this no you're tracking me like now you're you're you're literally just making me uh a a a you're you're pushing more of my life into your service than i want done same thing here evernote is obviously something that is a kind of intensely personal uh a product right you are you are only uploading things that you deem important enough to save either for business or your own life so i mean handled indelicately which is kind of the rule not the exception but at the same time you want it to work better right well and here's the thing i from from the audience reaction point of view so one simple fix change that users can opt out two users can opt in to having notes used for machine learning if you if you launch this with like hey we've got some special sauce out here it's machine learning it can do some nifty tricks we'll put out a video showing you some of those nifty tricks if you want to take advantage of it you have to opt in and part of opting in means that some people are going to look at your notes maybe occasionally they probably never will but they might and their background checked and you should know that and if you know that the same angry people who are leaving evernote today would just be scoffing at them saying i'm never opting into that come on i don't want people looking at my notes but they wouldn't be quitting evernote and there wouldn't be a you know a huge backlash against evernote at best they would be mocked i mean at worst they would be mocked at best people start going hey you know what i opted in and i know it means that maybe some people can see my notes but it does this crazy cool thing right or or anytime you make people opt out they're going to get angry but this is also from an engineering perspective absolutely how much longer does it take for you to get the data that you need to get that product where you need it to be if it's opt in as opposed to oh yeah no absolutely right you're going to take much longer to get a good data set adoption is going to be much slower i i get it like the temptation is like we can't wait around for people to opt in come on it puts the pressure on you to make the case that your machine learning is good enough and to make your machine learning compelling enough for people to opt in i get that that is a that is a taller order and it might not work so if you want to guarantee it works you opt everybody in and let them opt out but you also have to deal with the backlash of people quitting using your system and you know hey if you if it's part of a push and you make sure everybody knows it's basically an opt in right you know if you just put it right in front of their face and you make it really it's good if you squint and you walk back 10 faces right you're kind of hey if you're part of the privacy policy team that crafted this it's not a problem thanks to all those who participate in our subreddit you can submit stories and vote on them at dailytechnewsshow.reddit.com get in there and vote all right facebook is partnering with fact checking organizations on a new system to alert users to hoaxes and fake news uh we're not i'm going to set aside the the question of whether there is any evidence that fake news is having an effect and if so what that evidence is all right let's just look at the system let's let's let's bracket that you know fake news discussion off to the side for the moment the way you identify to hoax and i like to talk about hoax more than fake news because i think all of us can agree that you know we don't really want hoaxes to get spread that's why snopes is so popular stories people post but later delete is one signal like that must not be very quality they noticed it and deleted it comments about a story calling it fake or another signal there are other signals that facebook has not detailed all of those signals don't remove anything or cause an alert those signals cause the article to show up on a dashboard for review and they are testing ways to speed up the process of reporting but it's all of those signals that cause the dashboard to get the link then facebook employees will separate personal posts from links that present themselves at news now that could sound problematic but i think they're doing it right which is checking the domain name if this is a live journal they will go wow people still use live journal and they'll say no this is not fake news this is somebody's personal post if this is a blog they'll say personal post they're going to go by domain name not by content then if it says no this is a domain name of an outlet not a personal blog and it's the signals say that it's fake they'll have snopes politifact and factcheck.org as well as abc news these are all members of the pointer international fact checking network review the posts each one of them can mark a link disputed and link to their own page that debunks the article only if two of them mark the link as disputed will an alert show up the alert will be a banner under the article in the news feed that reads disputed by third party fact checkers and links to any of the debunking articles they may have created disputed articles also show up lower in the news feed uh attempts to share a disputed article will trigger a pop-up that informs you hey this is disputed it might not be true and disputed articles will not be eligible to be promoted through facebook advertising there's also a prevention element to this publishers who use spoof domains like abnews abcnews.com.co which is not abc news will be prevented from buying ads on facebook so Justin what do you think of this system that was some real fancy words you used um but the only thing that anybody listens to this needs to understand that this is hashtag portal to hell hashtag hell portal here's why is this a portal to hell here's the problem because you can't just focus this on hoaxes this is here because of the fake news thing we don't need to get into why this is now this pressing thing although if you read the leads of all the stories that are talking about this they all mention the same stuff ultimately and this is from my perspective as somebody that at that for a brief glimmer in a past life was a paid journalist there are real questions about what is accurate and what isn't and when you are inside the news business those are like the conflicts of can this go to bed in the paper can this make air are very very clear and and and they're and they're thin margin sometimes on whether or not you should push this whether that you can't the idea of fake news quote unquote being the center of this is the problem part for me because if this was you know uh uh adam uh uh meseri the product management for the newsfeed at facebook says we focus our never our efforts on the worst of the worst on the clear hoaxes uh being spread by spammers for their own gain and on engaging our community and third party organizations so let's focus on the first part of that if this were just hey we're here to filter out whether or not you know baby jessica really fell down that well or if it's obviously just something that was repeated from a blog that was posted in 2006 right like if it was about clarifying that kind of stuff which they're saying it is then that's that's one thing here's the problem is this thing could work flawlessly and bring nothing but a better clearer experience to everybody until the one time that it doesn't and the one time in which facebook has now officially put their name on the idea of deciding what is news and what is real and what is fake and that's when the hashtag portal to hell hashtag hell portal becomes as clear as day in my opinion well so so what you're saying is as much as facebook is saying this isn't putting a stamp of approval on stories this is putting a stamp of dispute based on fact checking organizations it won't stop someone for getting angry that a story that was on the edge slipped through yes because it wasn't clearly disputable and then later turns out to be false yes or it puts facebook at odds with those fact checking organizations because i love all of them i love fact check i love politifact i love snows but it let's take a look at fact check and politifact very often the way that they slice whether something is true mostly true mostly false pants on fire is very rhetorical is very well yeah they kind of said that but they kind of didn't exactly say that and so that's why we are saying this is kind of false maybe false a little false right and let's even just say that they're only going to be flagging the things that they find to be pants on fire you are still in in the context of political speech it's an amazing tool when you are now bringing that to the broadest of all audiences to the kitchen table of facebook a lot of that very delicate important context is going to get lost very very very very quickly and it's not necessarily going to be politifact and fact check that are going to get the crap it's going to be facebook we saw what happened when facebook had whatever their team of chimpanzees in a brooklyn warehouse that was keeping trending topics on the side and they thought you want to know what this one story seems like a conspiracy theory we'll keep it off that ended with mark zuckerberg having to meet with glenn beck and 19 other conservative media outlets who feel persecuted and i'm not blaming them for feeling persecuted we're just gonna wait man until a bright part story gets thrown and labeled as as fake news and that is almost destined to happen considering how wide the scope of bright part is and hashtag portal to hell yeah i think that is the bigger risk uh this is set up to make sure that nothing gets tagged that isn't false that isn't really demonstrably false and it is set up very reasonably uh i think it's more effort than than out of proportion to what the problem is in this case like the the spread of hoaxes is is not as bad in my opinion as many people may think but i this is a fair attempt to say hey we're gonna put we're gonna require a lot of signals we're gonna require a lot of review we're gonna require third party people and multiples of them to agree uh but i think you're right is as soon as these organizations allow i i i i don't think it's i i don't think it's that a story gets through uh from from an organization that turns out to be false that wasn't flagged as much as it is what you just said which is a story gets flagged that the people who are fans of that outlet are angered because they don't think it's false and that's when we get into what is really the underlying debate here which is how do we all agree what the facts are and nobody has solved that facebook i don't think has any business being the arbiter of what facts are and they're trying not to be here but they're also trying to answer something and my trepidation in all of these systems as as much as you know hey i don't want bad information to be spread either is that i also don't want a silo that is accountable only to its own shareholders to be the deciding factor on what's true or not we've tried to avoid the reason why this is happening but ultimately it just needs to be said it's problematic that this is here because facebook on some level feels guilty that donald trump's the president like many of its employees do sure yeah and and most of the people pushing against this were people who are upset about the election you're right and and that to me inherently is problematic for what i think could be a fairly uncontroversial and largely get to the same root of major problems which is let's go after those those abcnewscom.co right like like let's let's go after as many like you know akai berries can curate stories as as as we do uh you know like let's let's eliminate that leave it's pronounced al sae but yeah i sae berry sorry uh if the focus is that and the focus is more on these are stories from these like a macedonian site that was set up yesterday that is using a deceptive url let's flag that let's put that under review i think that to me solves most of the solvable problem without leaning into this idea of fake news which i think whatever you believe about it right if you believe that it was because you know of stories on on facebook that you know your uncle in the rust belt went crazy over and that's why he voted for trump and that's why trump's the president uh that's fine if you think that this is a totally overblown story and and this is just something that's that's completely out of control that's fine too that we can all agree that there is a a there's always going to be a spammer problem for facebook as it gets bigger and bigger and bigger i think it's problematic to build this house on what is inherently going to be disputed territory the saving grace for facebook would be that the fervor around fake news dies down that may not happen but if it did then this policy ends up maybe being more effort than it's worth but really slams down the spam and then slams down down the hoaxes and maybe that's worth it right there and also here's the other thing wait until if if you think i mean again this hashtag portal to hell hashtag help portal uh if if if you think that that's a problem when bright part gets something labeled wait until bright part writes something that liberal america doesn't agree with aka a thing that happens 70 times a day like and now the rallying cry will be the system's broken why isn't this labeled well and and you keep bringing up bright part but what happens when the huffington post writes something that gets labeled as fake news because that will also happen you want to know what and that's that's the the problem is is all of my examples are coming from the right because unfortunately the phrase fake news invites this very very very specific political discourse and and it is about labeling things like when the lead of the verge is in response to donald trump getting elected facebook is doing this then you can't help but see it in the light of wait until you know there's an info wars thing that goes viral wait until there's a bright bar thing that goes viral and and either it's going to be upset people on the left that say this is the reason why we invent why you guys invented this system it's broken or if it does get labeled here you're hammering free speech this is disgusting boycott facebook either way portal to hell all right uh let's get to our pick of the day uh from mahathir almas sure and maybe i got it right this time because he wrote thank you for pronouncing my name with such amazing accuracy and eloquence on episode 29 22 oh but did it again uh he wrote code is life code is love code is everything parents should send their kids to the nearest coder dojo so they learn how to code and have fun doing it it's volunteered driven nonprofit and all over the world there are seven active dojos in and around melbourne itself with luck there'll be one near you it's a lot of fun teaching kids about robotics and programming and best of all the kids get a great introduction to technology science and math it is equal parts exhilarating and terrifying trying to explain the modulus operator the percent sign in python to one very smart eight-year-old girl uh you Veronica patrick scott justin darin and roger are doing great work thank you mahathir uh well thank you uh for the pic go check it out coder dojo.com if your child is interested in coding or you want them to learn a little bit more about it sounds like a cool project that's great send your pics to us folks feedback at dailytechnewshow.com all the pics get aggregated at dailytechnewshow.com slash pics uh we're gonna get through the messages of the day quick because we're running a little long marlin the guy from trinidad uh was surprised that we didn't mention amazon video launching in 242 countries yesterday he says for too long my friends and family have had to use methods known to you to get access to our amazon video but in the last few years internet availability and speed has vastly improved all over the caribbean by last count there are five internet service providers in my country alone and many in the population have moved to streaming services using hacked rocus and those android-based streaming devices coupled with that is the increase of online purchasing and you have a lot of amazon prime subscribers so he goes on you can read the rest of the email in our show notes uh but pretty excited about amazon coming to the world nhr bill uh wrote on twitter a reminder that change tip is shutting down it was a way to tip people with bitcoin he said if you still have bitcoin there you might want to take it out at change tip and finally alex and connecticut said is it just me or is apple's new tv app completely useless is it just him justin no it's it's not you can't do the all in one app without having it all in one yeah no that is the biggest problem maybe someday and maybe you have to launch it this way to get everybody on board and netflix just did add itself to universal search on apple tv so maybe there's hope me right now it ain't it i thank you justin robbie young for joining us today where can folks find more of what you're doing hey twitch.tv slash justin our young tom go ahead and get me there uh i'm gonna be doing my one mic shows so that would be a jury in 1900 wrestling on mondays politics politics politics on wednesdays and uh a new like like just it's it's a total experimental thing that i'm gonna do with brett the m trek around the villa on fridays where we're just gonna you know shoot the poop and talk about whatever we want and that'll happen on fridays meanwhile of course the contender the social card game the game of presidential debate uh you can go ahead and still get that for 1776 until the end of the year at the contender dot us and get all your diamond club stickers at stickers or diaf.com thank you justin thanks to everybody who supports the show at dailytechnewshow.com slash support give a big welcome to new patron john alderman big thanks to brian harrison for raising his pledge and wish michelle h a toast for buying a daily tech new show mug everybody find a different ways to support us even if it's just telling folks about it and we thank every single one of them if you want to support us on patreon it's patreon.com slash dtns our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com we're live monday through friday 4 30 p.m eastern at alphateek radio.com and diamondclub.tv and our website is dailytechnewshow.com back tomorrow with darin kitchen and len perelta talk to you that show is part of the frog pants network get more at frogpants.com diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this program boom and even video streaming returned for the live viewers at some point yay yay that's a good conversation though i like that i mean you know the point isn't that it's right or wrong well there's there's two there's two different points and i think we covered both of them which is there's this whole like what are you trying to solve discussion and there's this how what will the system do discussion and and there there's two different things to discuss there and i think i think the what the system will do discussion is almost straightforward compared to the other discussion i mean the other thing is that here's the other larger kind of like journalism thing is that i love snopes i love politifact i love uh fact check bit of fan of fact check.org for years they're not god no they're fallible which is why it's that's why you have four right and maybe they have abc news in there as well right you have four so that when one of them does have a bias that shows through hopefully it isn't showed through by all four of them but the thing is is that like that i think is we're not dealing with objective positioning right like if there is a bad piece of information out there that is there from a what we understand to be a credible source then everybody understands it to be a credible source i mean herding and group think well they're not judging accuracy they're judging falsity uh and and the devil's in the details about what actually causes a dispute like you said is it pants on fire only i feel way more comfortable with that than i do with like it's kind of leaning like he's you know fudging the truth there and because if it turns out like a source said this but the source turned out to be inaccurate that should not be caught by this filter this filter should say this is whole cloth there is no substantiation to this and like you said that's gonna let a lot of stuff through that's not right and people may get angry like why aren't you why aren't you alerting us to this one this one's not right because the other problem is is that when do we want let's look at just the time window of when we want to solve these problems like theoretically it's as soon as possible so you are like if something blows up it's like well i don't know uh did hillary uh summon a dementor uh to to murder the people at ben gazi like okay well let's all look into this you know all these people that are gonna that are gonna flag it and like either it's there or it's not but they're gonna make calls on it they always they make calls on things very very quickly and like listen they're not i mean i guess here's my other larger problem is that there's there's this idea that journalism uh this idea that journalism is like this like journalists are these weird automatons that just find information and then synthesize the truth yeah and that's in a forthcoming episode i very bluntly and i and i felt bad about it later uh spout it out there's no such thing as objectivity to one of our other co-hosts yeah and i mean that i don't mean it in the way i think a lot of people may take it which is it is impossible to be objective so there is no such thing as truth i mean that what truth is is a set of probabilities it's a it's a confidence level nothing is a hundred percent objective what we're striving for is agreement and consensus and like hey we all have a 98 confidence level that that's true that's still a collection of subjectivities though it's a complex thing i mean i guess that's like once you've seen how news is made you won't take news so seriously anymore well and and that's not an excuse for something that's just entirely made up right but i guess that's but that's my thing is that listen there to me is a difference between this you know somebody literally who's just putting together the most sensational headline about hillary clinton or donald trump because they want everybody to you know to click on their google banner ads by mistake and they want you know there to be a billion pop-ups that open up you know the candy crush in your mobile app you know like there's there's a difference between that and news that is like even conspiracy conspiratorial like and i think conspiratorial news i have a harder time thinking that there's going to be an easy way to pick that out than i think the just spammer stuff is and it's like the stuff that that puts abc's logo on top of abcnewscom.co.uk i i i agree i think they will also be able to very easily chop down things that are whole cloth right like you know so and so uh consulted with demons or or whatever right like there's there's some very clearly false things that most of us probably look at and go well why would anyone ever believe that anyway but those are some of the things that got a lot of pickup i believe that it was at maybe confirmation bias but probably more likely just entertainment value for people to spread them it's the same reason that the weekly world news used to sell really well nobody actually believed in bat boy but we all had fun talking about bat boy we didn't need the grocery stores to all team up together to stop bat boy stories from being presented as real news uh that said this election has caused tensions to rise and caused some people to say no i i swear my uncle voted the way he voted because he saw these stories and believed them and it's it's the danger of individual experiences being generalized in a way that causes a policy and like you say it's pretty clear on one end but if this system only does that one end it's not going to please the people who want it to do something more i i just i got seed baby god speed leslie they wanted to step in here and they wanted to brand it in the way that they branded it and they and they are leaning into this fake news thing hashtag portal down man hashtag portal all right well now that we hashtag that let's look at the show titles have the top the big dump of news jerry's wife works for twitch the first hits of mario run are free twitch gets irrelevant get ir l event a hashtag help portal which is followed by fake book and then followed by hashtag portal the hell wheeler was a dealer wheeler on the fcc steps down see any more news thingy ones what do you think what do you guys think i i like the big dump of news yes i like that i mean really the the whole problem i think is it's going to be politicized one way or another and you're really what you really are trying to fight against is human nature and people don't and i honestly i i honestly believe that um whatever happens um will happen i mean it's tautological but it's it's it's it's like i i mean my biggest problem is is i think a service that allowed you to say hey i would like the pointer institute people to give me the stories that they have a consensus about accuracy on that's really useful for me as a guide uh and and and there are lots of extensions being created for browsers that can do that for you facebook coming in and saying we have to be the arbiters of this is disturbing to me however the way they're doing it seems more like well we own the platform so we'll be the extension that will advise you on there it's not it's not necessarily implemented badly i'm just i'm just more bugged by this idea that we are you know i i have never liked the concentration of so much information in one company's hands and and the same problem goes for google mind you uh and and that's really the bigger issue for me here whether fake news or not fake news just the fact that facebook feels that they have to weigh in on truth is is problematic let me ask you a question yeah why isn't it opt in yeah right we had a whole big thing about that in the show i because here here is what oh sorry that raises some really interesting questions because here is what i think i all right so right now this is the this is the head of bright part right now masters of the universe decree we decide what's fake news facebook enlist left wing quote unquote fact checkers as thought police that's different if it's opt in what's the huffing post what's the huffing to post headline i'm really i'm just real curious i have no idea where it would be whether politics maybe facebook is finally taking action against fake news after the election so now it's well thanks jix yeah too late yeah screwed up the world uh yeah what the hell if it's opt in the hell well first of all no one should read bright part or the huffing to post in my opinion if you want reliable uh you know attempts towards objectivity uh but besides that uh if it was opt in it it it really exposes what a lot of people want is i need you to stop someone else from behaving a certain way yeah it because the person who wants fake news to be stopped is never the problem no it's not you it's not me it's that other person who doesn't know any better and needs to be protected from themselves yes and that's the paternalistic thing that is the that's that's the dog whistle for for this is why this is this is where we get the masters of the universe up now i will go the opposite way from you tom i think that you should read both huffington post and bright part and you should read the new york times and you should read the washington post and you should read the daily caller and you should read well you're taking me out of context no no no no you're right no i mean i guess like i i got halfway through that sentence and you'll notice i immediately went four objective attempts at news but i would say don't go easy times for attempts at objective news right i mean like just understand that we are all blinking into the bright sun of truth and nobody sees it the same way now no but there there i i believe that there are outlets like bloomberg and reuters who do a better job than others uh and and sure that's just my opinion you may do the best job they can yeah uh it's all about where you are how close you are to the center and how much how much of the of the of the landscape you deliver i don't believe that every single source is equal in its presentation no no no effort i mean like in anything else the the effort put into different things is uh you know is is is ultimately what what makes it you know good or bad but like you know i guess like but when we get into these journalism discussions it so often just becomes they're lying they're telling the truth right and it's not it's always on continuum when really like you know the most damning thing i read about the new york times was from deadline and this guy was saying hey listen the problem with the times and this is even different than the la times or other places other newspapers is that their editors control things and the reporters don't yep that is great that was a great article their editors say hey look what's the narrative here now fill out how you would write this over six months now find me those are now find me those reports and in my opinion that's how you get jason blair that's oh yeah that's how you get richard glass like you you get that because if you have because you have people that are making the decisions that are farther away from what's happening that's why i read the bbc and listen to the economist all right uh i'm going to get out of here i love you guys so all right man have a good rest of your day which title did you like oh oh we went with the hashtag where the hell hashtag hell portal all right thanks man all right but well now i have a hashtag portal to hell hashtag hell portal is not what i put what if we do two different i've got one in the id three tags that's being uploaded now but what if we do oh crap what did i do what if we do one on the blog and one not sorry breathing in why are you sorry no because i can't it was when justin was talking i could hear you i just was kind of on of ominous i was i ran to the front to see who it was it's just the amazon it was just ups i was and now i have a now i have a latent fear of a neighbor with a complaint at my door there's only been the one right yeah no but that was last week and i've only been here a week and see that's less than one a week now uh three o'clock correct for for the thing that you're that goes out to the co-executive producers yes do you not have it on your calendar i do just making sure because i thought it was yesterday remember and i'm just triple checking i should have asked you that yesterday do you not have it on your calendar yesterday show rundown monthly hangout three three three three um it's not live though because people watching the stream are listening to it may think that you're promoting something and you're just doing housekeeping but what we're going to record that roger is talking about does go out to people at the ten dollar month level in the patreon if you're curious i just need to use the wrist okay thank you thank you for that i am publishing now thanks everybody for watching bye bye