 Helo, semua. Jadi kita balik lagi untuk P.H.P. Podcast, P.H.P. Podcast 2. Dan kita ada dengan kita peluang baru untuk hari ini. Dengan Hasru. Hei. Dan kita juga ada Zayan, yang adalah salah satu perempuan P.H.P. Dan saya dan Michael. Jadi... Helo. Jadi kita lagi disini dan kita akan bercakap sedikit tentang P.H.P. Jadi, untuk pilihan yang saya telah mengubahkan, sejauh sejauh. Kita ada sesuatu yang sangat menarik. Kita akan bercakap sedikit tentang itu. Jadi, pertama, kita akan bercakap tentang P.H.P. P.H.P. adalah menggantikan dan menggantikan oleh P.H.P.12. Beritahu kita lebih banyak tentang P.H.P.12, Zayan. Okey. Jadi, P.H.P.12 adalah banyak perempuan P.H.P. Seperti bagaimana anda melakukan keadaan di sana atau melakukan keadaan di TAPS. Di mana anda mempunyai perempuan P.H.P. Jadi, pilihan perempuan P.H.P. P.H.P. Pertahunan P.H.P. adalah untuk melakukan keadaan keadaan kogniti. Jadi, apabila anda melihat keadaan yang lain apabila anda melihat keadaan P.H.P. anda tidak akan memasak. Jadi, saya akan berkata, apabila anda melihat keadaan perempuan P.H.P. anda tidak perlu menunggu masa dan mencari keadaan yang lebih ramai. Ya, perkara seperti itu. Jadi, P.H.P.12 telah berjaya sepanjang masa. Jadi, perempuan P.H.P. mungkin berpengaruh dan projek. Apabila mereka melakukan keadaan di TAPS, mereka akan mencari keadaan P.H.P.1 dan P.H.P.2. Jadi, satu yang mudah adalah apabila perempuan P.H.P. untuk keadaan keadaan. Jadi, biasanya perempuan P.H.P. akan melakukan keadaan keadaan yang lain. Tapi untuk untuk perempuan P.H.P. seperti perempuan P.H.P. perempuan P.H.P. berjaya di sebuah lantai seperti perempuan P.H.P. Perempuan P.H.P. Jadi, P.H.P.12 adalah sebuah tidak sebuah jadi, perempuan P.H.P. kerana banyak perkara yang berlaku terutamanya dengan P.H.P.7 jadi, untuk sumber jika sesiapa yang berminat, kita dapat melihat perempuan P.H.P.12 betul-betul okey, ada yang berlaku jadi, sepanjang jalan di bawah ini kita akan menunjukkan apa yang berlaku antara P.H.P.12 dan juga apa yang berlaku jadi, sebenarnya semua perkara yang berlaku pada P.H.P.12 kita akan mencari keadaan ya, okey jadi, orang yang memilih apa yang berlaku apa yang tidak berlaku yang berlaku dalam perempuan P.H.P.12 jadi, kita ada perempuan yang berlaku perempuan P.H.P.12 perempuan P.H.P.12 P.H.P.12 P.H.P.12 P.H.P.12 anda tahu, kalau anda melihat perempuan P.H.P.12 oh, Tuhan, anda tidak melihat perempuan P.H.P.12 okey, Zain ini sepatutnya kita berubah dengan sesuatu yang lain ah, Laminas Laminas, ya kita bercakap tentang itu dalam podcast terakhir kita pergi rehatkan dan dapat tahu lebih banyak tentang apa yang bermakna kemudian kemudian kemudian, kemudian perempuan P.H.P.12 apa yang ini? jadi, tidak sepuluh sebaiknya adalah sebuah perempuan P.H.P.12 ah, ah perempuan P.H.P.12 yang ini akan menjadi perempuan P.H.P.12 perempuan P.H.P.12 saya lihat okey, bagus jadi apa yang bermakna untuk pengusahaan adalah ia hanya sebuah lintah yang lain jadi, eskipun Awak apabila kualiti anda berhasil dengan lintas efektif jadi anda membantu untuk menghubungi atau menghubungi format anda untuk membuatnya lebih konsisten jadi saya rasa anda akan mempunyai setelah setelah itu di PHPStorm apabila anda berkata atau apa-apa pun anda sebenarnya hanya ada dua berkali-berkali anda berkali-berkali berkali-berkali apabila anda mempunyai kali-berkali seperti typo-error atau sesuatu yang anda patut beritahu saya rasa anda masih berkata untuk PHPStorm kerana anda hanya berkata, saya tidak pasti apakah ia siap jadi, bagi contoh untuk keputusan keadaan yang baru yang anda bantu jika anda melihat dokumen terbaik jika anda melihat dokumen terbaik jadi saya rasa anda menerima sebuah kota anda akan menunjukkan contoh untuk semua hal yang anda bantu jika anda melihat sebuah fungsi yang digunakan pakaian vendor kemudian ini adalah pakaian yang digunakan pakaian vendor yang digunakan pakaian yang digunakan pakaian yang digunakan bla-bla-bla jadi PSR12 berkata-kata beritahu anda sebaliknya, apakah ia sepatutnya sebuah kota yang baru untuk ini? saya nampak saya nampak jadi ini adalah sebuah cara yang anda dapat mengubah keadaan anda dan sebenarnya anda semoga anda dapat lebih banyak kota yang berkata-kata sepanjang kota jadi apabila anda melihat kota anda akan berkata, oh betul saya faham ia mempunyai lebih banyak kota terutama jika anda adalah OCD anda harus berkata-kata anda harus berkata-kata saya tidak boleh mengikuti perkara itu okey, bagus jadi itu adalah kota pertama yang kami ada jadi mari kita pergi ke kota yang lain kota kedua yang kami ada sehingga kita bercakap tentang berkata-kata anda berkata-kata anda di PHP atau framework jadi apabila anda bertanya di interview untuk melihat diri anda di language program yang di framework bagaimana menjawab anda berdasarkan kitarian apa ini sebenarnya berdasarkan blog Zions jadi bagaimana anda melihat diri anda jadi sebenarnya jadi menjawab pertanyaan tentang 5x10 untuk PHP jadi sebuah kota yang berkata-kata sebenarnya apa yang terjadi saya berada di saya berkata-kata dengan seseorang yang berkata-kata bersama beberapa kawan lain jadi jika interview saya diberkata beberapa pertanyaan tentang framework jadi perkara yang berkata-kata bagaimana saya akan berkata-kata perkara tentang OAN jadi dia tidak boleh menjawab jadi tidak mengapa nanti seorang kawan saya berkata-kata jadi bolehkah anda menjaga diri anda di level dari 1-10 jadi interview berkata-kata berkata-kata 9x10 jadi okey berkata-kata berkata-kata jadi jadi apa yang saya fikir um ada apa-apa kota yang berkata-kata yang saya boleh gunakan untuk diri saya atau seseorang yang lain untuk sebenarnya menerima saya untuk langkah progam anda boleh menjadi PHP atau langkah javascript atau framework jadi sebenarnya saya datang dengan kota 10 jadi untuk kota 1 anda boleh menerima anda boleh menerima 0 kota 0 kota 1 atau kota 1 jadi untuk berkata-kata 10 anda perlu menerima kota 1 kota 1 untuk setiap keterangan jadi saya baru-berkata keterangan keterangan keterangan jadi keterangan pertama anda mempunyai dan menerima aplikasi cukup betul, betul betul betul betul tapi anda hanya menerima keterangan keterangan jika anda telah melakukannya dari scratch sekarang ini sangat penting kerana kembali ke dalam interview dia bukan proyek level sebelumnya tetapi dia sebenarnya menerima hal way dia tidak menerima semuanya dia hanya menerima hal way semuanya sudah selesai untuk dia jadi itu membantu untuk komponen kecil jadi itu bermakna sebenarnya anda tidak tahu bagaimana menerima PHP atau aplikasi jadi untuk setiap keterangan saya sebenarnya berikan 3 contoh 3 contoh satu adalah contoh lelaki yang adalah PHP lain adalah dalam contoh keterangan seperti ini dan menggunakan Max sebagai contoh untuk keterangan jadi bagi ini untuk keterangan keterangan untuk PHP contoh akan menjadi Yudhita responsif website baiklah untuk level anda akan menerima API untuk Max anda mempunyai keterangan keterangan anda mempunyai keterangan keterangan keterangan keterangan keterangan keterangan dan aplikasi jadi jika anda boleh membuat pemerintah untuk pelajar atau sesuatu itu bermaksud anda anda anda anda baik di Max anda boleh menerima aplikasi Max jadi itu untuk kecuali keterangan okey kecuali keterangan adalah anda tahu sebuah keterangan dan kecepatan yang terbaik untuk langguj atau framework jadi anda hanya dapat sebuah keterangan jika anda juga tahu jika anda juga boleh beritahu pemerintah pemerintah pemerintah jadi bagi contoh untuk PHP anda tahu tentang PSR untuk level anda tahu bahawa Alokode OIM ia bermaksud OIM untuk database ia menggunakan pemerintah pemerintah pemerintah kemudian untuk Max Max anda boleh cakap pemerintah pemerintah atau anda boleh cakap anda faham pemerintah pemerintah jadi ini yang saya Pemerintah Pemerintah Pemerintah pemerintah selalu beritahu saya ini pemerintah pemerintah anda boleh menggunakan pemerintah pemerintah untuk membuat masalah faham pemerintah pemerintah dan periksa anda juga mengajar ini di sekolah dan sekolah juga jadi ini yang anda tahu tentang pemerintah pemerintah dan pemerintah pemerintah karteon 3 periksaan pemerintah pemerintah pemerintah pemerintah sebenarnya dari sekarang di tempat dari negeri salah satu pemerintah pemerintah jadi mereka mengoperasikan lebih banyak pemerintah pemerintah dia akan mengubah jadi sebenarnya mereka perlu melakukan apa-apa yang kliak-kliak sebabnya bos tidak dapat banyak cara melakukan test atau sebagainya jadi penggambaran hanya jika anda tahu periksa per classy apa yang terjadi Wil Milan jadi anda datang menggunakan skim mark-in untuk MFN jadi skim mark-in untuk setiap pertanyaan anda dapat perangkat metam, perangkat unik dan perangkat akurasi jadi untuk pertanyaan 3 mark mungkin jika anda dapat jawapan korang anda dapat 1 mark kemudian jika anda menggunakan unik korang anda dapat 1 mark jika anda menggunakan metam korang anda dapat 3 mark jadi perkara seperti itu kemudian perangkatan untuk perangkat ini sangat penting kerana dalam kerja yang terbelakang saya saya datang menggunakan penyelamak no-js dia dapat menerima penyelamak no-js tapi dia tak pernah menyerima penyelamak jadi ketika saya menolakkan penyelamak yang sedikit penyelamak yang sedikit di instor Ubuntu, PHP dan penyelamak no-js jadi saya tak tahu penyelamak no-js pada masa itu jadi saya minta, boleh saya beri keputusan? apabila saya menggunakan perangkatan yang anda beri banyak masalah kerana penggunaan adalah menggunakan kerana penyelamak no-js hanya bergerak dalam keputusan penggunaan yang anda berhenti dengan jadi banyak masalah jadi banyak penyelamak yang berkata saya dapat menggunakan aplikasi, itu saja tapi sebenarnya sekarang anda perlu tahu penyelamak jadi untuk 1 pilihan, hanya jika anda tahu menerima infrastruktur sekarang orang-orang menggunakan cloud adik-adik bagaimana penggunaan konfigurasi kebanyakan dan anda telah melakukannya jadi perangkatan dan perangkatan untuk PHP, anda mungkin tahu menggunakan NGS Levera mempunyai 1 pilihan dan penyelamak dan untuk Mac, penyelamak akan menggunakan anda tahu bagaimana untuk mempunyai perangkatan sekarang, ada perubahan antara menerima perangkatan dan mempunyai perangkatan adalah sebuah proses yang berbeza jadi jika anda mempunyai perangkatan bermaksud anda telah membuat sesuatu dalam penyelamak anda lihat? nama anda telah mempunyai ada sesuatu di sana seperti akademik betul jadi untuk karateron 5 ceritifikasi untuk 1 pilihan, jika anda ada pilihan yang terlepas seperti untuk Microsoft untuk beberapa ceritifikasi yang baru saya telah mempunyai jadi setelah 1 atau 3 tahun saya telah mempunyai POPAKE anda akan mempunyai pilihan yang baru untuk pilihan ceritifikasi penyelamak pilihan yang terlepas adalah untuk pilihan pilihan 7.1 yang telah diluncurkan pada tahun 2017 pilihan yang terlepas saya hanya mencari sebenarnya pilihan yang terlepas ceritifikasi dan Max dalam konteks Singapura kita sekarang Max dan Max, anda telah mendapat penyelamak yang telah diluncurkan itu untuk NIE our Teacher's Training Institute jadi ceritifikasi karateron 6 anda telah berkontributasi untuk projek pilihan pilihan yang terlepas yang berkontributasi untuk pilihan pilihan yang terlepas jadi untuk 1 pilihan hanya jika anda ada pilihan kontributasi jadi jika anda berkontributasi untuk dokumen maaf tidak berkata-kata kerana kami berkongsi untuk potisi yang berkembang anda juga boleh mendapat pilihan 1 jika anda sedar projek yang digunakan oleh orang lain jika Awak dayakan Arul saya perlu memakai framework yang dimasukkan penerbangan jadi itu berguna dan saya menikmati langsung jadi yang ini saya sangka anda mencari framework anda mempunyai 2 poin sekarang anda tidak mempunyai 1 poin Okay, so my open source, of course, one thing you can check online. Secondly, usually there are strict contribution guidelines to manage the thousands, potentially thousands of contributors. So you will have learned some discipline and teamwork. If you have not contributed to an open source project, you may tend to actually do things your own way. You may push your own comments in your own way. So if you are working in a team, that may cause a mess. So if you have worked with an open source project before, that gives an ease of mind to the employer. So for PHP, the related one would be WordPress. You have contributed something to WordPress code before. Level mix is an MPM package. I can't remember what it does. Kind of bundling one. And Max, you probably participated in a community project. This music Max is actually from Pasir V's primary school. So they actually did a project to incorporate music Max. Interesting. So criterion 7, one scale up. You have contributed to the language or the framework itself. So for one point, if you're an active contributor, same thing, documentation, not counted. So contextual examples, PHP, PHP internals. That means you probably, this will actually involve C, more of C, not so much of PHP. PHP internals, one of the Zen engine. Level, you have one of the level source code for Max. Something that was mentioned by our Prime Minister recently. You came out of a new way to make solving quadratic equations easy. You know what? X equals to minus B plus minus square B square. So you contributed something to the arena. Criterion 8, you have given talks. So you have talks more about your confidence also. For one point, only if you have given 3 talks at international conferences. And you can provide video recordings of a talks. Because you cannot just tell us or you must approve. So this is where Engineer Start SG coming. So far, the 1% acting office Huijing who runs a talk CSS. She has given talks at international conferences, GS Conf Asia and overseas as well. Contextual examples, probably you spoke at PHP Conference Asia. For level, you spoke at Lerakon before. And probably you gave a TED talk for Max. So given talks. Then you have the second last criterion. You have taught classes, courses or workshops. So you know that the best way to learn is to teach. So for one point only, you have taught at least 3 batches of students. So not much of an example because for PHP, you are working with a Zen authorized training partner. Or let's say with a general assembly teaching the language. Level, let's say Udemy Causes. Probably you are a YouTube instructor that will counsel. For Max, that's very simple. You are a school teacher. So you are teaching, you have taught many batches of students. So that's given. And last of all, it's criterion 10. You are an active contributor to the community for the language of the framework. So half a point if you are meet at a conference organizer. Full one point only if you are a mentor figure in a global community. So some contextual examples for PHP. For example, Rasmus Ladoff, the creator of PHP, Theta Orwell, the creator of Level. Or for Max, you are a master teacher. So the link actually goes to the Academy of Singapore Teachers. There are at least a number of the master teachers in Singapore. So they are specialists, the top specialists in the nation for a particular subject. Cool, okay. So normally you think after teacher, you can't really climb the ranks. But now they actually have a teaching track and they have a management track. So if you don't like to be a principal, you can become a master teacher. So it's making it sifu or the sifu? Yes, sifu or sifu. So I think most of this is the PhD I think. Right, cool. Okay, interesting. Anyhow. So, there's Graeme's. Zion or Xion? How do you pronounce this? Zion? But people have called me Xion. I love what you did basically. I think what I would do different is that I would give a different weightage to different criteria. So I don't agree that perhaps all the criteria are equal in weightage. Perhaps some criteria are more heavier than the others. So perhaps things like actively contributing to the community. Perhaps things like writing a framework for scratch. Maybe you wrote your own page before. I guess those would give you a better weightage and perhaps rank you or rate yourself higher than the others. But yeah, that's why I would do differently also. Okay, cool. So, you give this criterion to the applicant? No, this was after it. I guess he didn't get the job. I'm not sure yet. Because actually we are also looking for junior developers. I see. I really like this structure. First, you have actually written a full application. So it's about writing the whole website. It knows about the best practices and standards. It knows about TDD, about how to write tests. Not just written code but deployed code. We have gone down the route of mastery to adopt. Not just know about the practices but also make sure that there's an external body making sure that you actually know what you say you know. So it's a certification of one thing. Contribute to open source. I think it's something quite underrated in a lot of communities in Asia. Contribute it to the language and framework itself. Given talks, I think it's the best way to create. I think probably this is the easiest. Other than number one, I know it deploys write something but giving talks is probably the easiest. At least in Singapore. Teach a class. That kind of is a function of you having given talks before. Once you've given talks, people will believe you a little bit and then they'll let you teach a class. In fact, I'll give you if you have a certification that qualifies you for teaching a class. You're certified. It's also true. I would... It's a bit of a game because you can be a very good practitioner but it doesn't mean you know how to teach someone to do the thing. You're really good at implementing or the very high level stuff but when you have to mentor somebody you're like, I don't know how to do that stuff. We think it's those PGDEs that have the certification we can't teach for that. Same thing applies. So it doesn't mean you have certificate it means you can teach but it's halfway there. At least people trust you a bit more. And of course being actually contributed to the community. But this too is like I can't find it. It's like this guy is like BDFL level bro. Benevolent dictator for life kind of person. I don't know man, I think these two are quite qualified for that. I actually tried to quantify this criteria 10 like where are you in the rank of contributors. 50%ile So if you're somewhere around top 25%ile I would say more marks to you but somewhere 50%ile perhaps less points for you. But I think there's a little bit of a difference there. In the sense that at least in the PHP side of the pond even though you're really your core contributor to PHP you're like doing all the very low level things in PHP. You don't actually write much PHP. You write more like C and then what matters is your opinion as in your ideas about the language ideas about how we should use the language those opinions are really what matters to you but then again people who care about those opinions are probably I don't know whether they actually care about they just want like I'm a taker just use whatever the framework gives they don't really go into deep arguments about namespaces why is that forward slash and not something else there's a different question but still what I'm trying to get at is even though you might be here like active contributor but then again in the PHP side of the pond you write C for the low level stuff and then you you don't necessarily do a lot and I'll rather your opinions I would say you've asked Rasmus about his opinions about what do you think is an ideal MVC framework he would say I'll just handle everything PHP is good enough but I need a framework Taylor he would probably tell you it's probably the best he's very opinionated about how we should design framework part of it part of it different people have different opinions so it's a bit of a mixback but these are good guidelines to have and I think some of the concepts here are quite transferable to other languages so this will be cool I like this what do you think about when you play for the job interview would you advise engineers or potential engineers to get themselves certified certification is like getting your first degree you'll probably get you the interview but whether you can survive through the job is another matter and unfortunately for certification some people actually learn or some people may get the question somewhere so it may not be 100% full proof as well so for myself I do have a certification four of them wow so to me it's more of a so to me it's more so it's to challenge myself to just check whether I know the fundamentals so when I see someone who is certified so the first thought will be at least he took the trouble to go and take the exam so actually he actually bothers about his standing or his knowledge of the certification how he that's another matter so actually that shows his passion to actually upgrade himself I think with interviewing somebody for example when you interview someone you want to get as high signal to noise ratio so in a sense you want to find indicators that tells me about this person's characteristic you see a good developer so having a certification it's a signal I don't know whether it's a high signal high fidelity signal or low fidelity signal it's a signal it tells me that you are passionate enough about the language to learn and also competent enough to know at least the fundamentals so then it's about as an interviewer there's one signal he seems competent so let's try and verify that so as an interviewer if you look at the certification it tells me it tells me this is my baseline expectation of this fella and does he actually match up and use like coding assignments life coding white boarding to figure out whether he actually knows what he says he knows actually for my previous job one of the reasons why I got the job or interview my name card is the certification I have so my boss first time I see so that got me through the door that got me through the door on the right hand side wow is this 1995 bro yes everything give okay fine is this just high school project I wrote this and USO is like play php okay there we go so you have the certifications the two people is bothering me a little bit so anyway so you have all the stuff here ooh can I zoom yes I can zoom anyway so these are the certifications okay never mind cool yeah so having certification does get you through the door the question about whether you can actually do the job is the other question so that's something a lot of interviewers probably need to figure out as they do the interview alright let's be distracting let's get out of the way so let's get back to our questions or rather the third item so how do you think also let's conclude so you think it's a good thing having this kind of rating thing I think it's a slightly objective way to determine whether you're good enough and more honest way also I love it you humble yourself in front of them 5 or 10 you will be interesting I think this is a very interesting but a bunch of indicators I mean every applicant will always try to sell themselves of course everybody can say 9 or 10 they would go to the public then but I guess with the criteria it's a whole lot more objective it's more objective and it covers more aspects so you're right that some criterion should get more weightage the time I was writing this was to make it as simple as possible so I can quickly give rating to someone so for each criterion 0 half a point or one point there's no point 2 that's just too much too much details okay cool thanks so we'll share the link on the show notes we'll check it out later last item for the day is PHP in Asia so are companies still using PHP what are the new developments in Asia and trends so Hasryul was sharing with us a little bit about some of the new trends happening north in Malaysia as well as in Indonesia would you like to share with the audience again companies still using PHP question mark is it in Singapore, is it in Asia and typically people look to Singapore for the trends and all this and what we're seeing today is that companies tend to be moving away from PHP do you guys agree with that but is it still relevant across the streets what I'm seeing is that in countries like Malaysia for example Laravel is very popular in fact just last month there was a talks to build a site in Laravel in Cyberjaya and they do this quite frequently and in fact one of the most promising start-ups in Malaysia run cloud run cloud which is sponsored by some of the PHP talks of PHP they started out as a PHP pass and then moving on to other things but when I asked the founders and the product owners and they asked me is PHP still relevant in Singapore today I said well but then they kept saying in Malaysia it's very relevant today still so many Laravel projects out there maybe because over there there's a lot more inclination to open source and in Indonesia there's still a lot of WordPress developers WordPress teams a lot of WordPress teams come out from Indonesia for example WordPress plug is come out from Indonesia but because it's such a big country with such a big population so many engineers they're doing a lot of crazy things today today I see a lot more Ruby on Rails engineers I see a lot more people doing Node.js I see some people even going to Scoleng so there's a far more I would say variety in Indonesia as opposed to Malaysia Malaysia mostly still heavy prominence for PHP and of course all the other enterprise tech like Java and Microsoft but the open source still mostly PHP in fact if I remember correctly one of the top 10 contributors to Laravel framework is Malaysia so if you got I would say following mostly because there are master contributors and they give talk so they share so people contribute actively so yeah those are some of my knowledge about what's going on in the region so what you guys think what's the future for PHP design? I know that it's quite big in Japan in fact the tickets to PHP conferences are free there are so many sponsors work camp work camp is also quite popular the workplace community is quite strong so personally I still favour PHP because actually it's the first of my use cases so if I want to do simple scripting I can do it in PHP if I want CMS that's WordPress if I want to do framework there are many options out there Zen framework Laravel framework and deployment is actually quite simple last time you just get a whole list setting up from scratch Ubuntu service is also quite easy Apache engine all these things are already been cut in stone used for many years already the process is actually quite foolproof what I shared just now about Node.js developer so Node.js deployment so normally you need to probably do more steps suppose for let's say Ruby on Rails Ruby is a nice language but probably except for Ruby on Rails there are actually no other choices out there probably not a lot of Ruby based web frameworks out there and it's still popular as Ruby on Rails I mean PHP there's that variety that choice can go Laravel can go e-framework and if you want to qualify WordPress as a framework in this no so can I mean there are more choices of really mature and established and proven frameworks out there, CMSs frameworks in the Ruby world there's not much in terms of CMS because I think people think that oh I can just build it in Rails but why would we need CMS build their own CMS I think if we talk about CMS the trend today is going going headless headless or static generate so headless so basically just for example WordPress CMS serving as a REST API and then he have a single page app running just web technologies like React Zooming API I think I want to give an answer to this question there is still a future is it bleak? I don't think it's bleak I think it's not strong either it's kind of there but I would actually take a signal from WordPress from automatic because they are literally the biggest contributors of PHP it's like three quarters of websites in the world it's so dominant that what automatic says would tend to direct how the market behaves and for me I think frankly the signal is not quite there we don't know what WordPress wants to do with WordPress and how it's going to evolve and that would translate to what other products people are going to build today we have things like what you call a team designer elemental template designer elemental and WordPress trying to kind of build that with Gutenberg but is that the way to go for me it's not a classic I would actually say why don't you just go headless everything is supposed to be API based today why can't we go to the basic WordPress keep it simple and let other people do fancy crazy things so we can try to keep that simple let the market decide how to use WordPress instead of try to build more features into WordPress and I think Gutenberg is a city project for them to undertake a lot of people a lot of people are doing better things out there the state of WooCommerce for example is getting ripped apart by Shopify and I think all my talks tend to pitch on WooCommerce but in reality a lot of WordPress projects today especially in some parts of the world in Europe still WordPress is quite dominant right America still a lot of WordPress projects but because it's now so commoditized you won't get as much money as perhaps 10 years ago it's quite different for PHP developer today and that's why a lot of PHP probably upskilling themselves to try other things like Go for example Node.js for example the money is not there anymore and I guess money talks, people will move where the money is like what you observe in Indonesia they are also moving away from PHP to Ruby Node.js, Golang I think a lot of startups there in Indonesia also use a lot the sexier startups there like Gojack Golang but Grapp uses WordPress on the corporate side trying to do funny things on the corporate website so if Grapp still uses WordPress therefore PHP is still somewhat relevant I guess not on the app kind of thing but how the website interfaces with things like the HRMS maybe so it's like like the past PHP conferences are attended so usually we will get like those speakers from US or from Europe so you find that they normally will talk about some deep topics sometimes you watch their Twitter then you find that the level of PHP that they are handling is actually quite different and since it's quite comfortable and they have all the time to actually do all the research and deep dive we are also over here fighting fire so it's quite interesting comparison let's say the western world and on this side of the world if you want good PHP jobs probably you have to go to Japan and this side of the world yeah man so so what do you think about the future okay Zain what do you think, up down or somewhere in between actually it really depends on developers and companies I will tend to favor the tried and tested even Node.js still has issues but sometime back and NPM just private they all got sold or something NPM it's been privatized he has a corporate entity this company try to claim copyright over NPM lot of dramas so it's try and tested but people developers always try to go for the new shiny things but the thing about any technology adoption i want to go PHP or Ruby it's always about availability of people to hire so i think in this part of the world i think a lot of it is about yeah i don't mind going into this particular stack but then again i need to figure out how to hire Ruby i mean there was this he spoke to from Malaysia many years ago he was like oh yeah he wanted to try to go to Ruby on Rails but he couldn't hire enough so in the end they just ditched that and went with Laravel instead because it was much easier to find Laravel and PHP developers who can convert to Laravel developers but i have to say it's because at the market it's configured like that what they teach university for example probably there's a lot more PHP you don't really talk about Ruby you have to teach PHP they actually teach PHP that's nice unlike Singapore in Singapore they're teaching more Python in school now they used to teach other than Java they used to teach PHP and Republic Poly but they dropped that years ago so Python because they think Pythonistas will make very good data scientist actually data engineers so it's also what the school teach i think now there's a lot of book camps they probably also focus on Node.js i think i think it's Node.js and Python like General Assembly and what's the other one code there's another one which is out there as well they do the cover Python or javascript so which means in terms of supply going forward supply chain coming in or the next future potential hires all probably doing javascript or Python so what does it mean for companies who are working with a lot of legacy PHP application or legacy ruby application so it's a i think it's actually good for old heads like us yes so we still got a job we still know how WordPress works we can command the hires i can get that done and about 10 minutes one thing i forgot to mention if you want to do object oriented it covers quite well whereas for javascript javascript itself the old piece isn't quite there so in the recent tech ladies tech ladies boot camp we did so this time round we were doing some ph javascript so people say they were doing Ruby on Rails so i was looking at the code and everything you're dealing with stuff that we've solved years ago in other frameworks Ruby on Rails PHP we've solved a lot of these things why are you dealing with event loops callbacks what are callbacks we got shit done in the same thing we're dealing with callbacks or promises or dealing with we don't deal with that i don't know it felt like regression simple things connect with databases takes so much so much harder if you forget to do i can't remember what i was using but some ORM in javascript you forget to deal with the async await, you're doomed is it react or something no, it's a we're using postgres no js library to connect to the postgres database so you forget to connect to it or you forget to deal with a specific callback or it crashes somewhere no js server just keep waiting no response until half a minute later i don't know that's interesting maybe because we're doing local development in development mode, maybe it crashes or timeout is a bit longer but i don't know it feels like a different beast do you think that when people try to adopt or test this i call this the blinking diamond it's a nice thing to catch do you think that because we're trying to do that it actually goes against azure principles not as azure to be honest, going down any technology adoption is a long term play so it's like how do you deal with people who i think some enterprises or companies have evolved to come adapt to this we're building a one giant monolith they went with microservices so microservices gives you the flexibility i want to build this part in javascript build this part in php build this part in ruby but then it creates a third problem which is how do you deal with all these different complexities how to deal with i went to a talk before about how they deal with microservices complexities and they have a standard build process so companies used to work at we basically introduced make files so every project whether you're a php javascript ruby you have a make file it's always standard make so you just it triggers what it needs to do so you have to enforce another layer on top of what you already know on top of learning so what they're trying to deal with is people who need to orchestrate or spin up 3-4 microservices just to test one function in his microservice so how do you deal with that complexity so instead of having the person i'm writing my stuff in php but i also need to know how to do npm install and gem install and bundler whatever so basically we'll try to introduce have a make file everyone just run make and you're done so you have to introduce these conventions and enforce these conventions just make these things work properly so it's a trade off so having microservices it sounds nice on paper and a couple microservices that actually are so interconnected that you can't deploy one without deploying the other then what difference is this from a monolith from one monolith you'll have one monolith in small parts which is even hard to deal with so you're trading off one complexity so it's not that nice but i'm more worried not so much about php but more so of the matter of our future generation of developers for example javascript if you don't write anything that looks like OOP you actually need quite a lot of discipline and top process for let's say php or even java you'll be war or something if you do something funny because you'll be quite hard to do in javascript you need a lot of discipline so i'm not quite sure but this discipline being taught in schools you don't teach things that have design patterns today in polytechnic still they don't really teach design patterns they just tell you how to get shit done they tell you the how but they don't tell you the why i'm not sure but i think that's quite different in university level no they don't design patterns i actually only heard of counter-trotsit when i came to the working world PSR all these standards i started coding but bad then i already had OCD so i let it in my code nicely so i let it in it fell nicely with me but all these things i learned outside school okay interesting when i did my university course i was taught by this SIM lecturer it was the first time somebody and it was a local somebody actually was able to tell me why you knew certain design patterns for the first time oh that makes sense to me i see he teaches at SIM he also teaches at private uni i was doing the university of Adelaide Computer Science but he was really good when i compared that, this is what i got at Poly we had a foreign i think at 40 level they just tell you how it's done don't really tell you why it's done this way what you should look out for they just tell you okay this goes to here oh okay i guess you're right i'm actually still concerned they don't know why they're doing this and even in when you run companies you always have to question your why that even makes sense to you can you get it from A to B and listen to all of you guys talking about the complexities of how things are done today i'm just wondering is that even helpful to your organisation it seems like i'm talking about another there's this whole concept about the back identification of the front end which is another whole shit so you talk let's leave that it's another next podcast i think a lot of things can cover so thanks a lot for you two guys very interesting discussion so Hazrul, Zaya, myself and Michael Hazrul, what do you do what are you working on now i'm tech at janyo janyo is a log tech company we trying to build a network of supply chain with sorry, let me just repeat that again okay, so a log tech company that helps you deliver your stuff from A to B but instead of trying to build something at DHL we're trying to build a DHL that democratise so we partner with logistics companies across the supply chain and they use our platform and our common stack so we help you get your parcel from A to B at a fraction of the price that the express guys do so that's what i do i'm tech but i do a lot more product work i crystallise the problem for the incidents and then difficult out the how are you guys hiring i have to ask i think we are, yes i'm not so sure what the engineering and i think sure sayang, can you give a quick plug i currently lead engineer at this company called iVillus Smart so we actually kind of monetise as one main thing that i working on is writing this video player hdmi video player from scratch so for example let's say a south korean company produces some videos so some website in Malaysia wants to showcase those videos on their website so we help the broker then we tell the Malaysia website okay you put our video player on it to play your capture analytics everything and when the advertisement show everyone gets the card so that's the main business model so from what i heard i think Indonesia so after youtube and facebook we are supposed to be the third largest independent require add monetisation just a minute and are you guys hiring good question guys got to prepare for this kind of things yeah hiring they are not locally at the moment no worries no worries so yeah that's all we have for our second episode of Singapore PHP podcast so i hope you guys can come back again and also contribute ideas so ideas that will help us build a more interesting podcast for you guys so that's all we have and see ya