 Good afternoon. My name is Bill Taylor. I'm the Executive Vice President here at the United States Institute of Peace and we are very pleased to see all of you. Looks like every ambassador of the every seat is filled and standing room in the back so this is a tribute to the interest in Tunisia and as it should be here on this fifth anniversary of the departure of the dictator out of Tunis said we were just talking about this just before that about 5.15 in the afternoon five years ago today the dictator took off Benelie took off and that was it was thank you so this is a great opportunity to look back on those five years and to look forward for the next five years and to see what challenges Tunisia has already overcome and what challenges it continues to face and it's a great opportunity for this group to have input into that discussion and we're very glad to be able to sponsor that kind of that kind of discussion. We thank the International Republican Institute and Scott and team Leo is here some Leo's right here up front Leo Siebert from the IRI we're very pleased to be co-sponsors with Leo they have a big program there and IRI recently released a poll sobering poll I will say on their interviews of Tunisians to see their thoughts about which which direction their country is going and of course a great thanks to the Embassy of Tunisia led of course by the ambassador but also the deputy chief of mission and Amal who is here somewhere as we're right here also right in front of me thank you it's great to have that cooperation and partnership with both IRI and the Embassy so it's a great opportunity we also have great interest from from our Congress I'm very glad to say our Congress of course is the source of support for Tunisia which they have been pretty good on but could be better and so there are many of us is in and many of us in this room who have been encouraging additional support for the for the transition in Tunisia and we think this is important to demonstrate the US support and US commitment we all remember that Tunisia is now a major ally a major non-nato ally of the United States we all remember that the the successes that we've already referred to but the national dialogue and the quartet that led that national dialogue and the and the recognition from the Nobel Peace Prize committee of that of that effort that led to the Constitution being adopted across the board and the excitement associated with all of those events over the past five years and we have and we'll see if this works Joyce but we have a greeting for one of the two co-chairs of the Tunisia caucus on on the hill and if things go well you will see it on this screen on that screen as well so let me see if that is that going to work Matt is that yes it does look here we are congressman Shriker I appreciate the chance here to share and as always I owe a big thank you to IRI and the Institute of Peace particularly for putting on this event look for those of us in the Tunisian caucus we care deeply about what's happening think of this the fifth anniversary of what we refer to as the Arab Spring and our one true great success is Tunisia and I don't know if folks who follow Tunisia particularly Tunisians themselves understand how focused and fixated I believe people around the world and those of us here in Congress were on the work of the quartet and understanding the tremendous obstacles the country had to overcome as the future moves forward the success of Tunisia its new government its relationship with its people is incredibly important to the region and I believe the world and there's tough obstacles you know for those of us who are here in the West we look forward to seeing can Tunisia open up its markets can it reform its relationship with its business rules and its government regulations we hope only for the best because the success of Tunisia ultimately I think is incredibly important to the world there needs to be a shining beacon that came out of the Arab Spring Congressman Schweigert is one of two co-chairs the other co-chair is Representative Elsie Hastings and if I'm not wrong there may well there may be representatives from Congress no no there's not disregard what I just said but we're very pleased to have that kind of support from from the Congress so the next part of this program will be a moderated discussion among the people you see in front of you whom I will introduce in a second and then opportunity for you to ask them questions make your statements and express your thoughts about about Tunisia both where it's come from and where it's going to so I am very pleased to introduce so this group needs no introduction Ambassador Goya from the from the Embassy representing Tunisia here in the United States we're very excited about our relationship and our working together we are the Institute of Peace is opening an office in Tunis which we couldn't do without the Embassy here and so we're excited about opening that office we were excited about that relationship the ambassadors served in various positions in the Tunisian government over his career most recently he was the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs where one of the issues he focused on was kidnapped people kidnapped Tunisians in Libya and prior to that the ambassador served as a Director General for Africa and the African Union in 2010 and then the Director General for the Americas in Asia in 2011 in Tunisian Ministry of Foreign Affairs ambassador it's great great to have you here thank you Amy Hawthorne is next to the ambassador she Amy is the direct as the deputy director of research at the project on Middle East democracy POMED prior to joining POMED in October Amy served as a resident senior fellow with the Atlantic Council's Rafi Career Center for the Middle East US and European strategies to support political economic reform in the post 2011 Arab world with a concentration on Tunisia prior to that Amy was an appointee at the United States Department of State where I know for sure that she helped coordinate the US support for Egypt's transition and advised on the US response to the Arab Spring she did a great job there next to her is Scott Mastic of the of the IRI already introduced and thanks Scott and IRI for their support he has led the political party building election support civil society and strengthening of democratic governance initiatives throughout the Middle East and North Africa Scott has also led IRI election observation missions for Tunisia's historic October 2011 constituent assembly elections and Egypt's 2011-2012 people's assembly elections so much for those elections and that's right Joyce Casey on the end you all have seen is our is a senior program officer for North Africa programs at the United States Institute of Peace here Joyce leads our regional criminal justice sector reform programming for the Maghreb and Sahel focusing on institutional reform in the justice and security sector she works very closely with a variety of stakeholders including law enforcement government officials civil society sporting inclusive governance through the establishment of community security partnerships which we would like to do even more of and finally moderating this next session Linda Bashai Linda is the director of the North Africa programs here at the Institute of Peace and she will moderate the panel today she directs much of the institute's work in Tunisia Libya and Egypt throughout her career she has focused on peace building education and training electoral violence prevention countering violent extremism security sector and community dialogue and I'm very pleased to be able to turn it over to you Linda thank you very much please welcome the panel thank you thanks so much Bill so this is a terrific crowd and I welcome you all here today and I don't want to take up too much time before I dive in I think I plan on spending about the next 25 minutes with the panel asking a few selected questions until we'll open it up to the floor and I'd like to when we have the mics running take rounds of three questions at a time just FYI that's how we're going to do it all right let's jump in I know that all of us here have been watching Tunisia and there is much to celebrate and much to be worried about and much to focus on and identify as opportunities for reform and change but I thought we'd start by taking a stock of the positive things that we can identify the strengths the reasons for the reasons to be optimistic what are the indicators to us that Tunisia isn't a great place that Tunisia has strengths that we know I think we're all pulling we're rooting we want this to happen how do we know that it's that the the conditions are there what are the positive indicators that you can tell let's we can just go in order okay thank you Linda thank you all for being here to celebrate five years of transition democratic transition in Tunisia five years is is is a very reasonable time to evaluate what was done and Linda was telling us that there are some successes but also also there are many challenges let's let's talk about successes and this is my part take the challenges yes we made a few successes organizing three fear and liberal elections in the framework of three years was a real challenge and hopefully we succeeded in doing that now we have an elected president elected democratically elected parliament and a government that is issued from a coalition of parties some can wonder how how can an islamist party very moderate islamist party and the secular party can merge together and can work together hand in hand to work both in the government and in the parliament it is something that can happen only in Tunisia because Tunisians are known for being moderate for being united and for being very looking for consensus when it comes to their national interests so by doing that Tunisians also work very hard towards a very progressive constitution a constitution was adapted after three years of the very hard work not only at the parliament but also at all levels of the society the NGOs and the civil society played a major role in putting together the new constitution the parliament of course with all its wings and sometimes it was very difficult and very scary we lived many scary moments but also among also the parties themselves and the media and media in Tunisia now is playing a very important role also women in Tunisia played a very positive role because at a certain time it's a legitimate and historic rule and rights were a little bit you know jeopardized and thanks to their militancy and thanks to their activism they they succeeded to put things again on the table and to to revendicate and to call for the maintenance and for the durability of their rights and for their for the rights that they fought for for so so many long years before Tunisia's independence but mainly after Tunisia's independence in 1956 these are the political successes there are many other successes on many other levels but these successes cannot be done without the political success we had in Tunisia and the cohesion the the cooperation and collaboration that existed between the many factions in in the country now it is about working on the other other sectors which are the economy which is unfortunately suffering from from the the regional reality and the situation remember that we live in a very volatile environment having you know terrorism very well established in the region threat is coming from everywhere from terrorist groups now active in in the Middle East but also in our region and mainly in in the neighboring Olivia and also we are suffering from small groups of terrorists that are unfortunately established in in some areas of the country and of course our army and our police is is working very hard to exterminate these these groups the other challenge is about social peace in Tunisia after the revolution people were very very hopeful for a better life for and the expectations were extremely high but for any government that came after the revolution it was very difficult and impossible sometimes to meet all these expectations at a time sometimes to reform and to to meet these expectations it needs a lot of time a lot of means and a lot of also reforms that are needed to improve the situation in all levels on education on healthcare on reforms related to the economic sectors such as fiscal banking customs so the country is is like a big working place it's a big place where everybody has to do something has to reform has to work hard towards to change the country and make the changes that are expected by the Tunisian people. Good afternoon everyone I'd like to thank USIP and IRA for inviting me here today and I want to congratulate Tunisia what has been accomplished in Tunisia what has happened in Tunisia in the past five years really is nothing short of remarkable we have to keep that in mind especially when we listen to Scott talk about the recent IRA poll and some of the you know the the the negative and pessimistic attitudes that many Tunisians have these days which is not surprising I remember this day five years ago so well and those of you who know me know that I've been working on issues of democracy and human rights in the Middle East for a long time part of a very small marginal group of people in Washington and when this finally happened in Tunisia it was astonishing it was amazing and I was almost as as excited as as my Tunisian my Tunisian friends and colleagues so we have to kind of remember what happened and how how incredible it really was and how unexpected it was at least here in Washington I've been thinking in the past couple days to really go back to sort of some core points what are the things that happened politically in Tunisia in the past five years what are just the one or two main factors that in my view allowed a real genuine democratization process begin in Tunisia because that's where Tunisia is now it's in a democratization process so there's so many factors the ambassador mentioned many important things I'd like to add you know two more first is the fact that Tunisia does not have and did not have at the time of the revolution a military that was seeking political power for itself and this is very very unusual in the Middle East as we know there are many reasons why it's this is the case in Tunisia having to do with Tunisia's history but the fact that Tunisia did not have a military that was that sought power and wanted to control and shape the political transition after Ben Ali fled is just absolutely crucial if that hadn't been the case Tunisia would have had a much harder time getting on the path that it's on now and the second factor that I believe is absolutely fundamental to the progress that Tunisia has made so far is what has happened with with Anachta with with the Islamist party the ability of the Tunisian political class or at least a large chunk of the Tunisian political class to agree that Anachta should be part of the process from the very beginning and it wasn't easy we know it wasn't easy and it still isn't easy for a lot of Tunisians there's a lot of divisions a lot of polarization a lot of mistrust but the decision at the very beginning you know maybe on in the middle of January to allow Anachta to be part of this transition was critical if that hadn't happened Tunisia would not have been able to embark on a democratic transition and the pragmatism of Anachta at key moments of the transition making decisions that went against its stated ideology went against what its base and grassroots wanted making decisions that allowed it to stay as part of the political process and this is still a work in progress it's very sensitive very complicated Tunisia there'll probably be more bumps in the road ahead but in my view those are the two sort of fundamental factors without which Tunisia would not be where it is today thanks so I'm going to continue with that theme a bit and I will talk about the poll with respect to where we are now and where we're going but it's appropriate on the on the fifth anniversary of the revolution certainly to talk about the successes that we've had today and I actually will parse it down into two key words that are I think representative of the traits or features that make Tunisia a truly extraordinary country today one is consensus and the other is pragmatism the the the decision of Anachta to enter into a coalition government with secular parties after the first election is not happenstance or luck in terms of the Tunisia transition progressing it is a key feature of what helped the country to move forward what helped to progress the transition in a democratic direction and then likewise when the country reached a a wall with respect to where that transition was going the agreement of the main political parties and the key components of civil society to resolve those differences through a process of dialogue again was not luck or happenstance with respect to where the transition would ultimately go but a critical feature of of the success of the country and then again likewise in the aftermath of this most recent election the decision of the primary secular party in Tunisia needed to just to enter into a similar coalition and indeed with the Islamist party is again something that is a tangible feature of what makes Tunisia different from the other countries that experienced the year of spring in 2011 so those those key decision points are all reflective of pragmatic decision-making by the various political stakeholders and civil society representatives involved and they are they are reflective of a desire or a willingness of the parties to resolve differences by a process of consensus and I think that's really what makes Tunisia different so I remember very vividly I was in Baghdad at the time glued to the TV frustrated that I had not spent more attention in learning Fusat at the point because I didn't know what was being said on the TV but I was watching images and you know in awe with fellow staff and partners and I think since that moment of actually you know watching the actual launch of the transition this revolutionary moment there are plenty of milestones which you've all mentioned but I think I'll highlight is this dedication to course correction and what I mean by that is there have been a series of events that have relied on civil society, relied on you to really push for accountability and transparency from their government counterparts which have have resulted in this constant give and take and I'll give it a specific example but I'm thinking of you know course correction and the actual creation of space for freedom of expression and freedom of assembly and how difficult it's been for Tunisia to manage being able to provide that space and support that space and ensure that that space is protected but for civil society and unions and others who are going to the streets and you know trying to make statements to learn how to also be constructive in that process and to see this give and take that's taken place over the last few years and including when there's been an acknowledgement that we haven't always gotten it right you know so for example the two most recent state of emergencies that took place if we look at what happened in the first one where there was then a return to a crackdown and there was a shrinkage of the space for youth and others to go out and voice their frustration of the the terms of the state of emergency and how they felt that that infringed on their personal liberties in the second state of emergency that occurred you saw a willingness and an openness to have that discussion face to face with civil society to be very vocal about what were the the legal framework that was in place to allow a constructive conversation and for that space to be open and so to just constantly see this give and take this back and forth and this openness and communication has been something that I think should continue to be celebrated I'd also really like to point out the role of civil society at a very local level so many of us here have had the opportunity to travel and spend considerable time in Tunisia and you've had civil society take a huge role in the constitution drafting process as well as you know the national dialogue process but I'm talking about recognizing civil society for the everyday work that they're doing at this stage and promoting the voice of citizens and reaching to the ministerial level and engaging directly with their elected representatives and that that be honored and respected and celebrated and so I would like on the fifth year anniversary to really celebrate the role of civil society and the give and take that has occurred over the last few years terrific now on to the challenges which some of which were previewed by the ambassador we had an earlier very small working group session today on Tunisia and one of the themes that struck me an observation really was this idea that Tunisia is at peace everyone sees it as this unique beacon in the region it's at peace but the peace is fragile and that fragility means that there is a hesitancy to take risks to make some of the changes that are necessary and that we we are discussing here so with that in mind with this idea that the piece is so fragile that it makes risk-taking or big decisions very difficult let me ask you about another one of the themes that came up at this roundtable and that is is Tunisia prepared for the imminent decentralization and local government government mechanisms that are on the horizon we're all seeing this as a very positive move a very important reform but it's also going to have to be done well it's going to need to take root to to have that positive impact is Tunisia Tunisia prepared for this decentralization and how should it be achieved what are the challenges that you see in the upcoming years to helping this process take root this is one of the major issues that are debated now in Tunisia how can we establish decentralization why i'm using the word establishing because now really it doesn't exist for the last 60 years of independence of Tunisia and building the new Tunisia all the previous governments even previous to the to the revolution didn't really put the focus on decentralizing the decision and decentralizing the system in Tunisia the center was always the major player of taking the decision but also of executing the decision and that's why regions never they never had they never took the responsibility to manage their regions and to focus on the sectors and the areas that need the intervention of the government or the local authorities everything should go to the center and the minister himself has to look for sometimes details related to the daily work of his sector and his ministry now a debate is open in the country to really decentralize some let's say sectors and the creation no later than last week of a ministry of local affairs is a demonstration of the engagement of this government to decentralize and to give regions more responsibilities on dealing with their their daily issues also we are preparing the next municipal and local and regional elections these election will be very important not only on the political level and there are many changes now operated in Tunisia it is even destabilizing a little bit the political life in Tunisia since the leading country now the the the the Nidda Tunis is witnessing many changes and some even some factions are splitting from the the core party to create new derivation of the central party now that many other party are trying to emerge and many other party are trying to restructure themselves because in this year 2016 I think many parties we will organize their congresses and to get ready for these important elections this is on the on the political level on the operational level the elections the next elections will be crucial for giving regions more more responsibilities and we noticed during these last five years because of the absence of a local a strong local and regional administrations many let's say programs and new projects couldn't be implemented despite the fact that the government is allocating the funds the funds are there but there are no regional and local structures to implement these projects and to create the the economic dynamics and to create also the development needed especially in the inland regions that suffer from a lack of development thank you I actually spent some time in Tunisia in November looking specifically at this issue of decentralization and visiting some of the different regions the very deprived interior regions of Tunisia and the decentralization opportunity the the process of decentralization is a huge opportunity for Tunisia if we think about democratization sort of at its core being about the de-concentration of power the breaking up of power the spreading out of power I mean democratization is many things but that is really what at its is at its core this is one of the crucial processes for Tunisia because as the ambassador said Tunisia has had an exceptionally centralized system of governance over over many decades and many presidents and so this will be a massive massive shift in the country's political system and its political culture if it is implemented in a way that is real it's also a huge challenge I won't go into all of the details right now because I'm actually writing a paper on this very topic because it's so complicated but essentially the Tunisia has to figure out how the process will work how local governments local councils elected local councils what role what power they're going to have how they're going to get revenues what role so the whole process of how local government empowered local government actually works has to be hashed out and it's very complex technically it's also very political because it involves a power shift then there's the the sort of parallel process of the elections how will Tunisians organize the elections for these local councils free fair elections there were local elections under Ben Ali but they were neither free nor fair so this will be a very different experience I think that that when I think about what Tunisia needs in this regard it is a successful decentralization process is like one of the keys that can unlock so many other things in Tunisia economically politically culturally but it's going to be very difficult and there's going to be a big political fight about in particular the Ministry of Interior which now controls the process giving up power so I think that the best bet for Tunisia is a process that is real that involves a real shift of power a real empowerment of local actors but that is also gradual because there's another challenge which is at the local level there is a lack of capacity we have to we have to be honest about that because people have never been given the opportunity the responsibility the power to make decisions at the local level so it isn't just a question of changing the law and creating local councils we have to think about the Tunisians in in in Gafsa and in Kassarine and in Gabas and in Sfax who are going to be managing these councils and the affiliated local government how will they have the capacity the experience the knowledge to do their job that's that's going to take a long time to build that capacity so top down bottom up right so let me let me agree with the ambassador and saying that the the creation of a local government fairs ministry is an important positive step because what it does is it takes administration and decision-making solely out of the prerogative ministry of interior in fact I would say it's probably the most important outcome of this reshuffled government now this reconstituted government our organization works on decentralization among others that that work in the same space for me decentralization is all about process right now and outcome is less important it's about process because what our polling data tells us and what we hear from Tunisians is that many people feel very detached from the central decision-making authorities in Tunis that's especially true in the interior parts of the country and so decentralization is a it's a framing point around which people have an opportunity to engage decision-makers on what the future of Tunisia should look like in terms of how decisions are made what different levels of government should have decision-making authorities what mandates those governments should have what powers are invested in local decision-making and communities being involved relative to what happens at the national level or in parliament and that's that's a very important focal point around which to have conversations right now because of that feeling of detachment or alienation from central decision-making and so ultimately a process of decentralization could take a very long time it could have many twists and turns they're probably not like a final decentralized Tunisia that we're going to look at there's going to be revisions to whatever law is passed it's about process right now and so it's important in that in that sense among the order of priorities though that Tunisia has I would also say there are more urgent features that Tunisia has to urgent thresholds Tunisia has to cross in the next year or two years with respect to the country moving forward and a lot of those relate to the economy it's also about changing mentality of people and the culture for a long time people were only relying on the center now they have to rely on themselves and I fully agree with your presentation that it will take it's a process it's not an instant coffee it will take some years and also we have to work on the process not with our own expertise because we don't have it maybe here we need partners like the United States and I'm observing here the system how it works but here it's different because it's a federation so and there are states etc but it is it is also a very good example of decentralization that can be of interest for Tunisians that are now preparing for a real decentralization system sorry to no one of the things that I think we're all aware of iri polling and just relationships that we have is there's a high level of frustration among citizens at the local level that frustration is very real there's a feeling of marginalization there's increased polarization there's all these things at the individual you know level and one of the things I think that we've learned from Tunisia's revolutionary moment is the importance of managing expectations and so as as there's a lot of work to be done in establishing the framework by which decentralization is going to take place whether that's a legislative framework for how the elections will actually take place whether that's the framework for you know this gradual transition and what decisions are going to be made at the local level versus the national level what roles and responsibilities exist in both I think one of the things to to really focus on is how do we lay the ground work to also ready citizens for understanding what their roles and responsibilities are in this process it speaks exactly to what you say in changing the mindset it can't just be about well what is the central ministry versus the local authorities now provide to me part of this feeling of marginalization is this lack of connection to decision making and to be fully connected and embrace decision making requires the responsibility to be aware to be active to be very involved to be constructive in how you give feedback and consult with others and so these core skill sets these these core you know pieces where you're willing to be engaged in the dialogue you're willing to be constructive in it and you're willing to acknowledge what your role in responsibility in it is as well and I think that would be the most important you know process manage the expectations and acknowledge the roles and responsibilities that everyone is going to have in order to make that process successful wonderful this could go on I have lots of questions but I'm going to set a good example and not ask them because I know that you have many as well so do we have our microphones in the room yes great so Matt will be handing out mics please identify yourselves as you ask your question and please for the sake of your fellow audience members do keep your questions brief so the floor is open this young lady right in the front row our second front row yeah my name is Sarah Kincaid I'm a recent graduate from George Mason School for Conflict Analysis and Resolution so my question is regarding youth we've talked a lot about political changes and the political process but with approximately 51 percent of the population being under the age of 35 and such low levels of engagement what can be done to increase their interest and their trust and participation thank you we'll take some more let's just stick on this side for this round of questions right next to her and then we'll take the gentleman behind Heather McLeod with NAFSA Association of International Educators and related actually to her question about youth what do you see the role of the higher education sector being whether it's vocational training universities how do you see them playing a role in engaging youth and the rest of the civil sector what does it say? Munji Dahwadi with the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy and thank you for putting this this wonderful event together congratulations to Tunisia and all Tunisians for this true and remarkable achievement and change after the you know and during that revolution that we saw five years ago and during the writing of the constitution when everybody got together and gave us a great constitution that galvanized the country at that time we keep seeing this kind of relapse into the indifference that for somehow the leadership and all the governments with all the shapes and forms and different colors that that we've seen so far it's almost like we see an opportunity squandered where the there is there is this galvanization of all Tunisians together they want to do something we saw it in social media right after the revolution we saw many initiatives you know from donating money to to putting you know clubs together to help the country yet we we don't see those governments reaching out back to the people and and a leadership that unites all Tunisia and the one vision to drive home the difficult reforms that need to be done so why why do we see this what is what is it going to take to to to get to that point thank you let's let's hear from the panel we have increased youth participation the role of the higher education sector and what our opportunities being squandered today the president gave a great speech on the occasion of the fifth anniversary and he announced a very good decision it's about organizing in this spring maybe in may april may or june a big conference national conference on youth let's say concerns but also problems and eventual solutions i'm very hopeful that this this congress and this conference will first make a diagnosis on the situation why we have youth concern now youth as you mentioned in your presentation represents 51 percent i'm not sure of the of the number but let's say a big majority of the tunisian people youth under 35 years old are representing the majority of the population in tunisia now they are a source of proud strength and optimism in the future when you have a vibrant dynamic educated youth among your population you should only be confident in the future this youth in tunisia is educated maybe in the country with many other countries tunisian youth are educated and now we are suffering of the employment of youth having higher degrees and higher diplomas in the country we feel it as a burden now personally i feel bad when i see a young men or women you know having an engineering diploma or have you know a doctorate in in in a specialty it can be medicine or pharmacy unemployed i feel it as a we feel it in in the country as a burden but we have now to feel and to perceive it as a strength the labor labor force that is educated that is dedicated also to the development of the country should only be considered as a strength and the wealth for the country i know many other countries suffering of lack of expertise and graduated people and even even labor force i'm not talking only about educated there are less educated people in tunisia they are represented a very important labor force for the country and for a country like tunisia that is now expecting development in all levels only these young people will be the tool to reach that level of development you took you talked about the same the same question was asked about educated population and higher education in tunisia higher education tunisia is an issue of major importance for each and every tunisian a tunisian family can afford not to have a car or a house but cannot afford not to get you know their kids to university and to schools even in very reclaimed and rural areas if you ask any family in tunisia how many kids you have in primary school college or university you you will never see one single home or house in tunisia without having a kid at school in all levels and this is one of the strengths of in tunisia we don't have natural resources we are neighboring two major natural resources countries libya and algeria but tunisia has human resources and i think having human resources is a blessing because these people can create wealth only people can create wealth and we are proud of having youth generation of entrepreneurs and i had the opportunity to meet many of them here having you know enterprises and companies in it sector and in many technology high technological sectors the last question of monji the wordy about the the relation between the people and the government the population and the government we have to admit that tunisia now is in a transition period in five years we had how many governments five six seven we are in a phase of establishing a new democracy we are a new democracy and we are establishing institutions that can respond to the expectation of the people in a democratic system we don't want to have any decisions coming from the top we would like the decision to be taken in a consensus way that gives the people the impression and the feeling that they are contributing to the future of the country and to the decisions that are related to their daily life and their future and the future of their country so it is very difficult to any government now to satisfy all the people i can tell you how tunisians i why tunisians should be happy with their situation now tunisians now enjoy liberty enjoy dignity enjoy democracy enjoy freedom of expression enjoy education enjoy health here we are enjoying all this at the same time but i know that my population and myself we are putting the expectation extremely high that is impossible now to satisfy everybody but tunisians who should be confident on their government on their system should be confident especially in in the future i can jump in for a second and go back to the point about youth one of the things that continues to stick out in my mind is the fact that for the elections that have taken place the largest group of volunteers were young people they were so dedicated to the process they were dedicated to actually registering voters they were dedicated to being trained and training others in order to ensure that every single district was prepared for election on election day they were out in full force you know from four o'clock in the morning and then stayed up all night i fell asleep in the gymnasium in the corner these young people made me feel extremely old because they were at it all night until every vote was counted they served as observers they were so dedicated to the process and yet we also know that they did not vote in large numbers and high high percentages they did not vote and we have to ask ourselves how do young people have this dedication to the democratic process and yet such distrust in political parties in such distrust in government that they don't even feel like casting their votes even though they're dedicated to making sure that everybody else did and so as i think to myself about that question and how you rectify that i think a large part of it is how do you how do you foster empowerment in decision making among youth because there are lots of opportunities where youth have been pulled in to dialogue there are lots of opportunities where youth have been able to interface directly with their officials whether that's parliamentarians or ministry officials and yet how do you create an incentive within these ministries within the parliament with within others who are already sitting at the decision making table to accept and be open about empowering youth to also sit at that same table in support in making decisions and i think if we can figure out how to make that jump that's where you'll you'll have this uh re-energized you know commitment of youth it's not just about unemployment it's this overall feeling of this lack of connection to decisions where you don't even have power over making your individual situation better even if you are dedicated to the process sure i i agree very much with what my colleagues up here said i think there there are some important danger signs regarding youth at tunisia of course when we're talking about youth we're talking about a group of people who are all about the same age and within that cohort there's many different socioeconomic levels and social backgrounds and political views so it's not a monolith but we do know that there are some serious challenges and and if i could use the word problems that are associated with with youth in tunisia political disillusionment frustration alienation um we know that you know there were there were really two revolutions in tunisia five years ago the political the revolution for for democratic rights for democratic system for political freedom and then there was the revolution for socioeconomic rights and many many many tunisian youth especially in the interior were were deeply involved in that revolution which is the first revolution that's where it actually started and that revolution has we have to be honest it has not succeeded and the the economic challenges and the social challenges that tunisia's facing are affecting all tunisians but they're really disproportionately affecting youth their youth are the greatest especially educated youth the greatest number of um people who are unemployed or underemployed we see of course the problem with extremism and radicalization which is a phenomenon in tunisia along with many other positive things are going on this is a very negative phenomenon um we see there there's even some disturbing signs of of young people committing suicide many young people wanting to illegally migrate to europe so this is this is in the mix and i think that the international community needs to take these dangerous signs seriously and really engage with the tunisian government and other stakeholders to help tunisia come up with a strategy that can try to address a lot of the challenges that we've described not solve these problems we know that in the united states we have many many problems with our young generation of people but to try to improve them to ameliorate some of these problems not probably eliminate them that's not realistic um and that national strategy uh needs to be led by the government but it also it needs to involve a lot of other actors political parties have a crucial role to play they when i talked with dozens of young people in the tunisian interior in november they actually blamed and were most angry at the political parties before the government there's a huge amount of frustration and political parties have this crucial role to play with those youth who do want to be politically involved that is the the sort of central one of the central vehicles to do that um the private sector has a huge role to play civil society has a huge role to play so it the government has to take the lead of course but it really is a national uh issue and of course young people themselves have to be be able to contribute to the decision-making process as joce uh said so well maybe just one word and you mentioned in uh i think the problem of youth and disengagement from politics is it's not it's not only a problem of developing countries or tunisia or any other country it's a global issue i was watching one of these french television channels a couple of days ago and the debate was about disengagement of youth in in France from politics from even you know the the social structure and constraints of the french society and this is an issue that should be debated i think on the national level but also on the on the international level also because uh what we uh less young people should should put ourselves in the shoes of these of these young people and look at their expectations their aspirations their the the new uh culture and the new um even uh um how how they look at the future as a whole so i'll i'll talk about youth but let me first respond to manji's um question about sort of why things are the way they are right now if i could if i can rephrase it a bit um and why haven't we seen more in terms of the the types of initiatives or decisions that need to be made um with with respect to reform and and moving the country forward so um with with the work we do globally we've seen in many different contexts that when a new government comes to power the public is usually patient with them for about 14 16 months after they after they get a new mandate and then they start to scrutinize a lot more what exactly is happening where do things where do things stand um in transitional context sometimes that's condensed a bit especially when there's a sense of high expectation or urgent priority that things need to change in tunisia the situation that we've seen transpire with the needed tunas party was incredibly ill timed i think because you went into the summer months and it sort of started started to get going you heard rumblings about it the division started to grow and then by the time you got past the summer and back into the fall period when people were poised to get things done tunisia's decision makers were very much focused on infighting and so i think there's been a kind of crisis of competence there created as as result and i'm not sure that we're we're through it yet but the result of that was you didn't see at a decision-making level in terms of legislation or government initiatives the types of things coming forward that you need to see the tunisia and i think in 2016 very much needs to see happen in a in a in a rapid fashion instead it's sort of it's sort of produced a stagnation and so from that you didn't have economic reform initiatives that that are important and of course linked to the lack of progress on the economy there are concerns about how that feeds into the appeal of violent extremism especially for young people so there there's an interconnectivity with with these things but certainly the the the uh the dysfunction right now or the the disconnect within the ruling party i think is is a big problem that needs to ultimately sort itself out and i i would hope sooner rather rather than later um with respect to young people you know in this in the survey we just did it was it was very interesting because across the board when you look at all the different demographics not just like 18 to 25 year olds but up to like 65 year olds and beyond men and women urban and rural coast interior everybody agrees bad job with young people so there's kind of like across the board agreement on the diagnosis that this is a big problem for tunisia the the the challenge is there are few specifics on the treatments how do we start to get at this a a conference is it is a great start perhaps but i would say that this government in this year really needs to focus on a serious national effort on combating youth alienation and that it will have to extend far beyond singular events it has to get at community level initiatives um at at incorporating young people in a more real way in decision making and having their grievances be heard by the key decision makers and and acted on so it's certainly there's a there's a there's an important role as amy said for government to play and in fact in this kind of context i think it's important that government actually leads in this case because a major grievance now is that young people simply think they don't care they're not listening so the engagement part is very important and then some tangible items that that the government can point to in terms of responsiveness or action or are key and i and i really do think it's this year is a pivotal one for for us seeing some of those things okay we're gonna my microphone okay we're gonna go to the other side i'm gonna start urging our panelists to consider these lightning rounds because i do want to take two more rounds of questions and so let's start on the other side of the aisle young lady in the front row hi my name is sarah long i'm with the world justice project um we construct a rule of law index and over the course of the last four years tunisia's score for absence of corruption has pretty much remained stagnant um and transparency internationals corruption perceptions index has found pretty much the same findings um however i also noticed that one of the big changes last week was the creation of a new ministry for public affairs and absence or sorry anti-corruption so my question is um what are some of the new government initiatives to combat corruption both in government institutions and also in the private sector down to the young lady on the aisle rebecca ash of the hudson institute i've noticed well i've read that um the tunisian government is very concerned with the libyan border and radicals coming in from the libyan border so my question is um how does that concern affect the decentralization projects and democratization okay bill laurence from the american tunisian association and several of our board members are here today and uh and members um uh and two very quick questions one is uh and this comes from phil frayne another one who's been involved with us um uh why hasn't tunisia put together a national service in focused on university graduates focused on deliverables from the revolution uh so putting young university educations out in the field to deal with you name it public health literacy electrification renewable energy any number of things um what that seems like it's got to happen now um and related to that i'd like to drill down on something that amy said very interesting in her presentation and also looking at her recent chip report to um southern tunisia um about capacity uh tunisia as you said doesn't have a lot of capacity in these regions we're talking about right and tunisia needs quick wins out there so when the international community looks at the underserved remote areas in tunisia can we even be waiting for local capacity to be developed or should there be new mechanisms i heard something today about an innovation fund you know should there be new mechanisms for the international community to deal directly with underserved communities uh before that capacity gets built up for quick wins again to uh excite local populations all right big questions short answers thank you yeah why no national service actually i don't know that that would be that would be part that would be reflective of a of i think a more serious initiative on on on engaging young people um why not that's that's one good idea good idea that's announcing it right okay um governance and um the rule of law is these are major um revendication and uh demands of the tunisian population and it's one of the reasons why we had a revolution five years ago uh in tunisia corruption and nepotism and all these uh you know staff was a real issue in the country for um let's say 15 years at least from uh from the early 90s until 2000 and um and uh 10 the uh the date of the revolution the key word in tunisia and uh it happens that i serve uh broad for a long time and when i get back to tunisia and get back with my family friends and uh everyone everyone is talking about the same subject there is one issue that is discussed by all tunisians even my um my grandmother that doesn't understand anything on on politics can tell you about about corruption and nepotism in in the country and favoritism and this family and so it is a big issue and it's i would say it contributed maybe 60 70 percent to the to the to the revolution in tunisia and one of the revendication one of the demands of the tunisian people when they get into the streets from december to january 2010 2011 was to ask for my president and his family and they are naming the families this family and this family degash get out of the country we don't need you anymore because you you are corrupted and you corrupted the people and uh you made from this country uh you know a source of wealth of of of an incredible wealth of families that we know a few years ago that don't have any any wealth at all and all the wealth they get is coming from corruption not from hard work and from creating business and creating companies etc so since it is a big issue in tunisia it needs big and very democratic also decisions now the legal process the legal aspect is taking place and all those who are incriminated with any corruption issue are under control of the police and the the the justice system and they are they are going to the to court for for their for their um illegal activities those who are not involved are waiting for and the population in tunisia is waiting for implementing a system that will fix and will correct and will put uh rules that prevent the country from returning back to the formal practices of course there are many constitutional institutions and agency that that were created right after the revolution and now they are working on these issues but also the civil society is now the watchdog in tunisia and they are controlling any move from any agency or civil servant or individual that that try even try to to get involved in in corruption so the rule of law in tunisia i think the legislation is there now the agency the institutions are there it needs some time to put to implement these rules and to make tunisia also again a corruption free country and you mentioned the reports by international human rights and corruption yes bodies that are ranking tunisia one of the best countries in terms of respecting the rules of good governance in in the region i'll jump in really quickly on the question of local capacity i think this is a question not just for government officials or law enforcement but also civil society one of the most positive strategies i think that can be undertaken in the coming years especially as the decentralization process rolls out is to build that capacity in partnership and thereby build trust you know if i look at a lot of the initiatives of the ministry of interior and ministry of injustice and specifically looking at the local level and trying to impact opera operational level decision-making that's happening between law enforcement who are policing communities where there is a lack of trust that exists but there is a commitment to policing in the right way there is a commitment to the human security model ensuring that the provision of security is one that is about protection of the citizen and not just protection of the state and i think about over the last couple of years there has been a dedication by the ministry of interior to build the capacity and adjust you know the training curriculum for incoming you know police recruits to change the recruitment process to actually be supportive of community dialogues that bring together police with citizens to address some of those challenges so i feel like there are a lot of these issues where if we we tackle the issue of local capacity we acknowledge that in addressing that local capacity it could be best to do so by building it you know together with law enforcement with government officials with civil society and that we also see that that is the true way in which we're going to build trust and confidence in the system in the process i think will address a lot of the other issues that we've already brought up today as a panel just a quick word on on Libya the Libyan border since no one else has dressed that yet you know i i don't see my former colleague kareem is around here who in my mind is the foremost expert on Libya in this town but but there's Catherine i i'm not an expert on Libya i can't speak to the complexities of Libya but i can say that if the Libyan situation really deteriorates further spins out of control you know all the other negative scenarios we can imagine happening that are making what's up you know going on now even worse this is a real threat for for Tunisia's successful democratization process and when i mention this to US and European officials they sort of cringe because they say oh you know Libya is such a such a complicated mess and we don't want to think about all the things that we have to do to help Tunisia and then only think that that Tunisia will succeed if we fix Libya because in many ways the problems that Tunisia is facing are we can imagine them being addressed Libya is much more complicated but it really is very very important the border security question is extremely complicated this gets directly to questions of the informal economy smuggling madis here who knows a huge amount about this topic i commend his usip report to all of you but essentially border security it's not just a question of kind of building a wall putting up fences training people the whole system of security in Tunisia that has a lot of weaknesses in it and needs to also be addressed but i really do want to highlight the issue of Libya because it is having a direct and and very very negative impact on Tunisia Tunisia can't completely isolate itself from the problems in this neighbor unfortunately can i say something about that actually can i add just something so i agree with all of that and and i thought you were going to say though when i talk with us officials and european officials about Libya they don't want to talk about it because i think that's also true because there because there aren't there aren't easy solutions right and i and i don't know that i see that i don't know to see that situation changing much so you know the the way i look at this is in in light of that reality and the context Tunisia faces you know i actually would i i would i would i give i give Tunisia much more of a kind of mixed scorecard on how they have have they they've dealt with those challenges than i would a negative one only because the country is not immune from the threats posed by terrorism they have attempted to respond to that with a counter-terrorism strategy but you know it's it's it's a difficult it's a difficult situation reality that they're going to deal with for the foreseeable future and it doesn't need to be at the expense of everything else and certainly not the economic reform agenda great let's squeeze in one last lightning round thank you for your patience we had a question are you still coming to you thank you and thanks usib for this event on congratulations to Tunisia for this fifth anniversary certainly it's congratulations to the arab spring despite the fact that the remaining countries are not anywhere near where Tunisia has been able to to accomplish but the Tunisians get it and the Tunisians have always gotten it by comparison to the rest of the Arab countries i mean all we have to look at is even the dictator when he left certainly left in a compromising way a lot more peaceful than the others that that have left and i think that's really what it comes down to Tunisians get the issue of compromise and other countries are still struggling with that being a Libyan-American and i can say that that is something we're struggling with in in in Libya as we speak but the question that and i must also point out the issue of you know the Tunisia still has challenges to deal with internally but in terms of the external challenges and you mentioned the terrorism issue which i believe the solution to it is not just purely that it's something that has to be dealt with on a far greater scale that does involve a lot of other elements but correct me your excellency if i'm mistaken i think to the point of the stability of Libya not only that it will address the terrorism issue but also i believe one million plus of Tunisians find employment in the stable Libya that's 10 percent or more of the Tunisian population i think that will be a huge relief on the on the on the political as well as the country resources in Tunisia so again that just goes to the sense of urgency wanted to see a stable Libya that will also help Tunisia from that perspective other questions here in front thank you my name is Ahmad kushmak i'm a PhD student in george mason first let me or allow me to pay a tribute and respect to the spark of their spring mr and uh hamed bwazizi because if it wasn't him we didn't you know live to see that being from a country that received the throne out dictator bin ali for us seeing that was a dream and we didn't believe it at the beginning and then what happened in Egypt and Libya my question is why the Tunisian revolution is different than the Egyptian and Libyan ones um regarding that we see what's going on in Libyan Egypt we're so proud of what's going on in Tunisia but what's the reason is it because of the the people of Tunisia they're um civilized they were ready for that they were you know um prepared somehow or is it there's no like other interest for other parties to play a role in Tunisia that was like you know what we're not interested so that's the question and last one the second row my name is dr Latteri i'm a Tunisian thank you very much for having us here uh congratulations to to me and to all the Tunisians and everyone who likes democracy and fights for liberty uh yes Tunisia five years ago i'm back and joined the countries the democratic countries it is long overdue yes but we have an idea i'm going to address something that came up with POMED representative is about the um the 60 years that Tunisia has been independent and the formation of its human resources just next to you is an example of what Tunisia has produced and there are so many others here during the last 60 years so yes we have to burn on what Tunisia has already produced especially when we talk about governance and decentralization it is not going to be just for starting from the beginning you know there is something there and in the regions and the municipality and there there is a budget there is a governor yes you could say there is no no no election you agree with you but there is something there that can be burned down and continue so that's what my comment going back to the conference that is coming up and the the president has already mentioned it and his excellency the ambassador just also informed us it's a national confidence for the youth but we know based on our experience that whenever there is a national confidence most of the decisions and resolutions stays with the conference and terminate when the conference finished so we have to think how we're going to infiltrate all the decisions to the regions and let the youth at the level of the governor's level of the district to engage get engaged and and be part of the process thank you so much thank you very much thank you for your patience I want to invite the panelists to briefly offer reflections and comments on those last rounds of questions thank you very much for giving me the floor to be the first to speak on Libya when we talk about Libya and if you ask any Tunisian about his feeling about Libya we feel like one country maybe one population and there is no there is no distinction and there is no any feeling for any Libyan being in Tunisia Tunisian being Libya as a foreigner or stranger we we we have more than one million Libyan now living in Tunisia and sometimes they ask me how about refugees in Tunisia they are not refugees they are living with us they are in their second country if you want Libya is an opportunity for not only for Tunisia is an opportunity can you imagine that now that Libya is still in crisis and we all hope that Libya one day recover and get back to its strength and wealth because Libya really is a very beautiful and wealthy country that this that unfortunately was living for many decades and they're a very the worst leadership ever and I believe in leadership because sometimes a tiny country with a good leadership leadership can be a superpower look at Singapore and look at Libya a beautiful wealthy country huge country being in a difficult situation because of its leadership I think Libya is an opportunity not only for Tunisia as I said but for everybody American business people come to me on a on a regular basis asking how about our future cooperation with Tunisia once Libya is is stabilized and I say yes Libya is a real opportunity and we have to think one day to gather all our efforts and it's a win-win you know situation for everybody for Libya to be reconstructed and developed and for business people from the entire world especially from here the United States from Tunisia and maybe as Tunisians know better than any other people Tunisia Libya we can gather our efforts to make Libya a very prosperous and developed country and I'm confident that Libya will solve its problems very very quickly now they have a new government is working starting to you know even their government is in Tunisia now the new government is based in Tunisia working day and night to to put a new strategy for for establishing peace and security in in Libya why Tunisia is different this is a good question and maybe we need a separate panel on this very briefly we are a nation there is a difference between a country and a nation Tunisia is a nation has many many thousand of years of history of of of culture and more than three thousand years of history and culture made Tunisia a civilization and the civilized people the role of women role of civil society the middle class Tunisia is composed of maybe 80 percent of middle class people we don't have this poverty and the clash of classes no there is some homogeneity in the society also an educated population most of Tunisians are high educated also Tunisians are known to be very moderate also and this morning we were discussing also why Tunisia succeeded while other failed maybe because of its army we have a republican army that never gets tempted by power or government or coup d'etat in six years of independence in Tunisia we never had any coup d'etat more than that at a certain time when the crisis reached its maximum in Tunisia there are some politicians that approached the of the army and they asked them to stabilize the the country even for a while why don't you take the lead of the country why don't you govern the country and the generals they said no thank you we are soldiers we are not politicians we are not involved in politics and we are here to defend the country to defend the borders and to make sure that Tunisia is safe we are not involved and we don't want to be involved so it is a very it is very important that the army institute the defense institution is independent is professional and is republican and that's why Tunisia is different from from the other and there are many other reasons and i would stop here thank you to your question sir thank thank you so much for your your comment and i think that one probably the the single thing that makes me the most optimistic about about Tunisia's future Tunisia's democratic future is the the human talent and the human capacity that exists throughout the country for for all the reasons that that the ambassador mentioned and many others as well and to be sure there's a lot of people a lot of Tunisians who could benefit from more training and more education and more opportunity to participate but the raw the raw material is very much there and this is a huge asset for Tunisia that shouldn't be forgotten and we also have to remember that democratization the process of moving from an authoritarian system of government to a democratic system of government is fundamentally about people and citizens and their capacity for change and that is really what it's about and Tunisia has so much going for it in that regard and we also have to remember on this fifth anniversary that Tunisia's democratic transition or its shift from authoritarian rule was generated created and led by Tunisian people it was not as is as has happened in other countries a top-down process of the political elite around Ben Ali saying you know you need to leave and we need to start a liberalization process in Tunisia it was bottom up and it was started by the Tunisian people and this is a huge asset going forward so I'm very very optimistic in that regard so let me in closing just say something about the survey that we did if you go to our website you can find it at iri.org and when you look at it you may say wow it's kind of bleak things don't look great pessimism was at an all-time high in the survey 83% of people say the country is going in the wrong direction so after all of this discussion today know that that's kind of the mindset of the public we did that survey in november we've done 15 since march 2011 so you could look and see kind of trend lines in and in thinking about that though you know it's important always to think about the context and pessimism was very high once previously in october 2013 about 70 79% of people then said the country was in the wrong direction that was before the transitional government was constituted and then the national dialogue and then the constitution was passed and then they held elections and so Tunisia worked itself through the pessimism at that stage and I believe that they can they can do it again but it's going to require I think a precision focus and and and the data to me shows this on economic improvements in this next year people say terrorism is the their biggest worry it's the biggest problem but when you ask them about what they want to see from their government almost everything relates to the economy and so it is critical in this year ahead and I think it is another we've reached a point where it's another pivotal year that we start to see a few important things from this government on the economy if I leave you with one thought here today the success or failure of this government and the transition going forward to me it ultimately relates or arrests on the economy not counter-terrorism policy not actually rights and democracy as it stands right now but this government's economic plan and and what they do in the next year to improve the opportunity for jobs and and quality of life improvements I'll be super quick because I know we're late but I'm going to say I'm not going to pick a sector I'm going to say convene consultation compromise of all the issues that we've discussed today it seems like the biggest issue is and knowing that capacity is there empowering simple society to be re-energized and recommitted to their ability to convene these discussions and really enable real consultation we've talked about announcements from the government to facilitate a convert a national dialogue on youth we've talked about a national dialogue on higher education national dialogue and countering terrorism we know about the successful national dialogue that's already taken place and yet to really get to the point of building trust and confidence at the local levels where it's most needed and most missing at this point we really have to get back to supporting convening taking place on that local level and consultation to be one where there's an acknowledgement of the feedback that's coming back from communities and and when I say that I don't mean just civil society I mean feedback that's coming from law enforcement that's coming from local authorities it's coming from parliamentarians and then figuring out how to take this information and process it in a way that there's actually follow-up that's taking place at decision-making levels whether that's the ministerial level whether that starts to be at the local level as the decentralization process is soon to to kick off that that's what I would close with you know convene consult and really compromise and if we stick to that process I think we'll be successful in a lot of the endeavors that are underway economic reform security sector reform and the ongoing democratization process excellent thank you so much I think we had a fascinating and rich discussion I like that we're ending on a positive looking forward note at this time I would like to invite Manal Omar who was our acting vice president for the center of Middle East and Africa here at USIP to offer some closing reflections and remarks Manal was not able to join us earlier but wanted to be able to to offer remarks at this time thank you Linda I just want to thank the panelists thank you ambassador you've been a huge support and you know rather than including remarks since Joyce already highlighted we're over time I just wanted to highlight that Tunisia remains a priority country for the US Institute of Peace for all the reasons that you you described I think it's really important when we're thinking about the Arab Spring and the conversations around the Arab Storm Tunisia is that light at the end of the tunnel of when it's bottom up when it's grassroots when you're focused on long-term strategies of positive transition and change so I think it's really important that in this city we continue to highlight the positive and also the fragile I think you know the points about the economy are absolutely essential for Tunisia to be a success it has to be a collective effort and investment so thank you ambassador thank you to all the panelists thank you Linda and Joyce and thank you it all it's wonderful to see a standing room only on the topic of Tunisia like I said it's important we're not only focusing on the crises but looking for opportunities so thank you