 President Bahari criticizes southern governors on open-grazing ban, saying it's a show of power. And APC's south-west leaders condemn speeches of public leaders that promote division. This is cross-politics and I am Mary Annacorte. The ban on open-grazing is in the news once again, and this time President Mohamed Bahari has expressed his intention to address the conflicts of herders and farmers permanently, while also reprimanding the Southern Governors Forum for the ban. The President further accused the governors of politicking over security issues. And also speaking on the ban, the Chairman Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption, PACAC Professor Issei Sege, has taxed the southern governors to solidify the resolution and open-grazing by asking each state assembly in the south to pass a law banning open-grazing in their individual states. Well joining me to discuss this is Kabeer Adamo, a Security Risk Management and Intelligence Specialist and Femi Badibu, who is a former Air Vice-Marshal. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. All right, great. So let's start with the Sabah Declaration. I know that you're not a politician, you're a security person. The first thing, first part of call, of course, is the fact that we lost a security chief over the weekend, heavy blow this has dealt to the nation and all security operators, even in the midst of fighting a war against terrorism, banditry, kidnapping across the country. As a retired person who has worked in the Air Force and part of the armed forces, what does this mean for us as a country that is facing the type of insecurity that we're facing to lose a service chief? It's a major blow and something that could take a little while to get over, but because the military and particularly the Air Force have a rule of getting up and going. I'm going to show you that from Air Force Aircraft and Air, in fact, the C-130, a trans-aircraft application that we had earlier, 8 a.m. on Saturday morning to be able to convey the bodies to Abuja. So the Air Force is actually an airline. The army, when it has not affected those two, are deployed in the operational area because there is, in the Air Force Air Force, a chief of policy and plan who is unofficially to IT, the chief of emergency. So all the operations are managed by people on behalf of the chief. And so things are moving at least for a little while and there will be no gaps, I can assure you. In fact, you can see the C-250 arrangements that the General put together an executor. It shows you that somebody will take what was in charge, giving orders, leaving funds and whatever was required to be done to trick things rolling. The President yesterday expressed a strong resolve of sorts to address the issue of insecurity and the conflict between the herders and the farmers permanently. But can I say that this sounds very familiar, but the attention, again, is drawn to how serious the tone of the President is in this particular statement because Nigerians have heard the President say something like this over and over again. And compared to other times, why should we take this particular one that the President is saying seriously when we have not really seen anything come up from the previous statements that sound very similar to this? The question is have we had the President say anything? Because a statement, to my mind, is the least that is expected at a time like this. For the morale of the children in the front, for the families of those who lost their lives and for the Nigerian people as a whole, and addressed with a more professional job would have been more appropriate. And when you now talk about all the other issues, particularly this issue of open grazing, we should dissect the policies that he's talking about. We need to think about this properly. There's something that the police call two-fighting. It's like two people caught this problem in the teeth. But when one person is sitting down and the other one is sitting on the head, I don't think it's like, it's not like two-fighting. So this issue of summer-heather flash or terminologies that are being used when a particular site continues to cover losses tells you something is wrong, there has been a pattern starting from our state all through the middle belt and now flipping into southern part of southern Nigeria where the friendly Fulani, if I can call them that, who have been grazing in the neighborhood continue to do what they are doing, but there are some renegade forces and I would like to attribute them to those who have come from the north who are not real Nigerians who are perpetrating a program or project 33. So they either come and they estimate a community of some land or frighten the people so that they can move away and you come back in a week or two. There's so-called friendly Fulani have moved into that area. So it is translating into some form of land for us and when the president now dangles the issue of open grazing in another summer-heather where he's talking about those who are interested will be given resources to set up these areas of land and he even mentioned the fact that schools and health facilities also provided in those areas won't begin to wonder. We have the problem of lack of schools in the north. We have the problem of lack of schools in areas where people are staying right now. So why is this? That this is what he's talking about at this time. I know that this care is not taken because of course this is like a carousel and fixed issue. The federal government is prepared to release substantial funds of money to set up this raising land. If care is not taken, some jobs are not regarded and it's not good at that people. That's what I can say now. I'm going to come back and take you on the issue of open grazing but we're being joined by Kabir Adam who is a security expert. Thank you very much for joining us Mr Kabir. I want to pose the same question I posed to the AVM to you. Of course the president has expressed the fact that he's resolute in putting an end to the herders, farmers crisis and all of the insecurity that we're facing in the country and I did ask him why we should take this particular statement seriously when we have had the president make statements like this before and it didn't really result to anything. But then I want to ask further what must be done for these words that come from the president or statements from the presidency what must be done to get power to make these words powerful so that Nigerians can begin to take it seriously. Thank you very much. Good evening and good evening to my co-discussant as well. So the presidential statement can come in the form of a policy directive. It could also come in the form of what we in the intelligence cycle we call a tasking and or a directive to his cabinet ministers, his aides or the technocrats as the case may be. Now that statement would need to be taken up by a number of technocrats and translated into actionable directives. In other words in the form of a letter as an example to the national security advisor or to any of the government departments that have the responsibility for implementing that directive. Now usually there should be some form of monitoring and evaluation mechanism in place to ensure that that directive once it's translated into perhaps a letter is being implemented through that monitoring and evaluation mechanism. And I know as an example the ministry of planning also plays a role. Sometimes directives like that are captured as part of a guidance to ministries when they are submitting their budgets they are expected to indicate how those budgetary provisions they are requesting for will meet those aspirations of Mr. President. So that statement by Mr. President is just what it is a statement. What matters is how that statement is translated into these actionable items that I've mentioned. Now unfortunately you and I do not have the privilege of knowing whether the technocrats that are around Mr. President will take up that statement and convert it into this meaningful action. Now in the same manner I would take it back to the statement by the 17,000 governors. Some of us were a bit uncomfortable by the statement by the southern governors. In the same way I've translated that statement by Mr. President, that's the same way I'm translating the statement by the governors. It is just a statement and if it's not translated into actionable items by technocrats in this instance in the case of the governors someone needs to take that aspiration, that desire to burn open grazing to the state assemblies to now pass a law that would back that statement as long as that is not done then what we are having is mere political statements that are unfortunately inflaming the country adding to the already very inflamed circumstances that we're in and just providing as it were for those that are dividing us. And so for me as a security practitioner someone who understands national security would think that it's high time for political players, especially political appointees take this debate out of the public space and take it to the platforms that government has provided for that. And a good example is the state councils and the various security councils. That is the best place where these kind of discussions will be had as against the type of statement that we've seen recently. I just want to push you, Father because like you said you do not know you and I do not really know why the technocrats have not taken the responsibility of making sure that they're actionable things done to make sure that this statement is not just a mere statement but then there are people who have criticized Mr. President for being weak in handling the issue of insecurity in the country or putting the necessary pressure. As you have said, anything that the President says can just be mere statements but that's why he has all of those people around him but if all of those people who are supposed to be working for Mr. President are not doing the bidding of the President and makes it look like the President is weak. Doesn't it mean that the President is weak? Doesn't it mean that the Presidency is failing because never has it been heard that in a time of a situation such as this that the President would say something maybe mean it but then there's nothing to show for that statement or that there is no action that matches that statement. So again, how do you send shock waves through the spines of these terrorists? Of course, it's more like, come on, let's all play here because nobody's doing anything to us, doesn't it? Okay, so let's take a step backward and I would really appreciate it if you sort of follow my line of argument if it's possible. Part of the challenge that I've seen is that as a country we've been unable to disaggregate this challenge. Yes, there are gunmen that are killing people and some of these gunmen are most likely Fulani's but when the what Fulani had many used to describe the group that is killing what has happened is that stigmatization has happened ethnic profiling has happened and in the process of doing that you are alienating a significant portion of the population from supporting that idea. As an example, I'm Fulani and I have never, for instance, carried a gun to commit that act but I have been grouped as part of that activity and it's wrong. So the president as an example who understands that we have not disaggregated this challenge very well but one sort of recommendation that I would have given is to start from that let's disaggregate the challenges. I have on my own been able to iron a consultancy and I advise people who operate in endemic areas where these groups are active. A good example is Benue, Kasina, Zanfarah these are all places where these guys operate. Now I think that we are dealing with three separate issues one of them is the farmer-harder violence that Mr. President attempted to address the second one is the activities of gunmen that we have over time used different terminologies to describe very separate from farmer-harder violence. Sometimes they are called Fulani hardsmen sometimes they are called Fulani militias other times they are called bandits or unknown gunmen which is the most recent one they all mean the same thing depending on what part of the country you are analyzing the issue organized criminal groups that carry out kitna for ransom activities now it's very likely that the second group which is the bandits also would carry out kitna for ransom but there is a separate group that is organized and that is not affiliated with any ethnic sort of group and that are just pure criminals they are in it for the money criminality now why is this disaggregation important it's very important because each of these issues require a separate solution if you lump them up together and call them as it were Fulani hardsmen then you are not going to find a solution even if you ban open grievance the other two will continue and so that's my recommendation to the federal government and the state government separate these issues and I think it's very important that the media too as influencers should also buy into this lend the right words to describe these kind of activities in the process you don't end up stigmatizing or ethnic profiling that in the long run unfortunately would lead to what happened in Rwanda okay I'll come back to you let me go back to the retired AVM the president had very strong words I'm just picking up from where he stopped for the southern governors who decided that well since nothing is being done wholesomely in their areas they decided that they were going to go on this whole ban on open grazing now it has not obviously resonated with everybody including Mr. President who has said that it is a form of politicking and a show of power on the path of these governors because they are outrightly banning open grazing and it's not just the southern governors that are the southern governors are not just members of the opposition they are members of even the APC so I want to push you on something can we look at this open grazing situation logically or maybe even from an academic point of view can we look at the benefits of ranching in itself because when we say we want to ban open grazing it's one thing but how educated are people on the benefits of owning a ranch on what it would do for us if we have cows or cattle that we are milking in a ranch for example I'll show you the Abu Dhu cattle ranch is a very good example the cows that we have read on that ranch look like cows that you find in a dairy farm somewhere in the UK or in Sweden so who's educating people on this because it looks like just like Mr. Carver said it seems like there's a lot of information out there but they're all muddled up together but how can we educate these people who are herders or people who own cattle to understand the importance of this and if we can nip that in the bud we can now tell who these people are that are coming under the guise of being herders to cause mayhem or become terrorists of sorts well you see I saw cattle herders more than 20 years in Ghana and so I even spent a little time in Yola so I interacted with people I could have a lot of friends of north and what I got to learn is that a lot of these people in the north and even down south but the cattle in the middle south are investing cattle and some of the cattle herders do not own the cattle they're simply managing the cattle for their owner now the eight long tradition has been that you do not pay these people a salary there's a formula whereby for X number of newborn cattle in a particular group the cattle herders takes one and so over a number of years we also have those that belong to him and if you give him like I said that's a simple number of sentry cattle maybe in a couple of years you could have up to 27 or even 30 something that much place and place and he has his own little bit now consider for that whole period you're not paying a salary and these people are very honest and they have delivered extensively over to you guys so you'll find that there are people in positions of authority who gain from this sort of investment and they are the ones who to some extent will not want to go into cattle ranching because now you're talking about a different born again entirely where they have to now buy feed and do all kinds of management and also through some of this where this planet people are out of the market then you'll find those ones amongst them who hold cattle and if you report maybe about 10, 20 years or so we now study the issue of cattle rocketing where some people come to kill your cattle and take them away and because you are coming armed, violent coming from the Niger from Chad all these war zone areas the issue of I mean the flying came off and then certain people started to arm them so instead of the usual stick that some of them will carry on their shoulder because I started AK-47 where they came from that's another issue and these are the things that have transpired so as some people have said in the last couple of elections some parties have brought in what I'll call the mercenary who are part of the renegade forces from Chad and all these other areas these guys are not Nigerian, they are very violent and in the period when I was a commander in Yola in 1998 there was not this security committee that involved virtually all the governments in the world not this and of course the intelligence agencies and then some people from Niger on Chad and what they were into at that time was to try and contain these renegade forces that had been thrown out of position in Chad who had started drifting through the Chad into Nigeria they were the ones who started to carry out the long what I'll call Yola-Abauchi roads and then later they moved all the way to Kaduna road and to Abudela road and to Konsegura road and so on and so forth so they have been successful in the country like my colleague there said either as renegade forces and to secure money to be able to survive in the bush these people they're not into living in towns they're very comfortable in the bush so they're just coming to towns to get what they need to stay where they are and they've found ideas very attractive and so we are dealing with all kinds of people but my problem here is that right from right from what I call from at around six where this renegade force is fat villages and the town full anee or the friendly full anee that are known just simply moving to those villages and settle down and in a few places even we name the towns so this is where the problem comes where one group is benefiting from the disturbance but completely say no we're not involved in the disturbance nobody has pointed out renegade forces that are in the country and and you hear from presidency that you learn to live with your neighbors the neighbors they're talking about are just loving to land who come to town and give you everything but the trouble still remains when it's going on they look very similar they speak to full date and so on so how does the common man know who is attacking this is the problem we have finally back to you Mr Caberre he's just literally said what you said briefly to us about the fact that we need to separate the wheat from the shaft but there's a lot of politicization of this issue and it makes it very difficult to address the core problems he has named these renegades and he's saying nobody has really made an attempt to arrest them and of course the innocent full anee man who is peace loving and not participating in all of these killings has to bear the brunt so yes of course we have been told to live in peace with our neighbors but if these so called neighbors are killing people people are unable to go to their farm lands and governors have decided that okay let's start somewhere by banning this and if you want to rear cattle or you want to continue your business you have to abide by the state laws which means that you have to acquire land pay for this and that and then that way we know that we have the right people doing the right business and whoever is doing any hanky-panky will face the wrath of the law so why politicize this issue instead of us going to a round table and sitting together to deal with the problem I did interview somebody last week and the person said that all our politicians know the right thing to do do you agree with that? I agree totally I don't know who that person is but I'm getting him a high five wherever he is I mentioned earlier that our politicians need to take this debate away from the public space into the platforms that government have provided for this type of issues this debate is not in any way helping our national unity during our 60th anniversary celebrations we celebrated togetherness how can we be together when this is dividing us really certain politicians from different parts of the country who have national aspirations are finding it very difficult to come out with a common position on this issue because again like I said if you send a message that is appearing to advocate for ethnic profiling or for stigmatization you are alienating a significant portion of the population and so not every politician would want to do that especially if he has national aspirations however if your aspirations is at the state level and you want to champion a cause that your state appears to embrace which is to ban open grazing again like I said don't do it politically do the right thing send a bill as an example to the state assembly a good example is Benway State and Taraba State despite the controversies surrounding what they did they've done it and it has stood the test of time so what is the essence of coming out in the public and saying you are banning open grazing without actually going through the process of banning open grazing all you would have succeeded in doing is generating tension so very political that's number one number two it's also very difficult for the federal government as an example to come up with a statement on this issue because the way the issue was generated remember time would not allow us but if we are going to trace the genealogy of this discussion you would have found that at some time the media was using the term fulani hardsmen and then it changed from fulani hardsmen to maybe just hardsmen and then to fulani militia and then name it it has gone through a range so making it very difficult for a politician at the federal level to take a decision because by the time he or she takes that decision a particular segment of the country would feel should change them or be against them so I think the way to go like I said number one remove the debate from the public space enough of our politicians fighting each other or mobilizing along ethnic or regional or religious lines it's not it's not going to auger well for our national unity so remove that from the public space let them take it to the platforms that government have provided for this type of discussion it's in our constitution the state consuls there are several state consuls through which this kind of discussions can be held if we continue to take this discussion in the public space unfortunately the consequences will not be very well for all we have to go I'm so sorry but we have to go unfortunately time is not on our side but Cabrera Adamu for my advice Michelle thank you very much for being part of this conversation we wish you could go on thank you for having us alright well we'll take a short break thank you for staying with us when we return APC Southwest leaders condemn discourses of leaders that stimulate division we'll be right back