 Good afternoon everybody. I see the room filling up with people, so I will wait for a few more seconds for everyone to get into this call. I hope you can all hear me correctly, I'm really pleased to be here today virtually. By this joint webinar of the Institute of International and European Affairs and the Klingel Institute in The Hague. I think we have reached almost all participants now, so I will start for this coming hour and a quarter. Welcome, my name is Brigitte Dekker and I'm a research associate at the Klingel Institute, and today I will guide you through this webinar on navigating Europe's digital transition, recalibrating industrial policy, EU connectivity and international partnerships. That's a whole mouthful, but before we move into our fantastic panel we have here today, I will first give the floor to Joyce O'Connor. She's with us today for a worth of welcome and she's among many things, the chair of the digital group of EEAI. And thereafter I will introduce the panel to you and we will start with the introduction on the topic and of course you have the opportunity to have a Q&A. Joyce, thank you for being here today. Thank you very much, Brigitte, and a very warm welcome from Dublin to you and to our panellists and to our audience. And a special thanks also, Brigitte, to you and your colleagues at the Klingel Institute for organising and moderating this webinar. This event, as you said, is part of an international project called Europe's Digital Future, which is coordinated by the Institute of International and European Affairs and is supported by Google. As part of this project, a network of think tanks and research institutes in the Netherlands, Denmark, Estonia and Ireland are exploring what the concept of digital sovereignty means and what future it might hold for the EU, particularly for small open economies like Ireland and the Netherlands. Our network headed its first event in Dublin, at that stage, Michael, you were asking about the weather it was sunny, not like today in July in 2021. And that day we launched our joint publication on Europe's Digital Future, Perspectives from Northern Europe. This is the third in a series of project events, taking place in member states, capitals in Copenhagen, in Stockholm and Dublin. On topics such as the Digital Markets Act, the Jürgens Chips Act. To learn more about the project and to see the earlier events and publications, please visit the IEEA website at www.iea.com. Today's webinar is very timely and is a valuable contribution to our overall project. Governance around the world are addressing the rapid development of digital technologies and the various policy challenges to which these technologies give rise. This webinar will touch upon some of the most crucial thematic issues that our network is researching, including topics such as EU connectivity, international partnerships and the balancing of economic interests, security and citizens rights. So we look forward to our panel discussion with Micah, Helene and Eric. And I'll hand you over now to Brigetta to introduce and moderate today's webinar. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Joyce. Pleasure of having you here today. If you have any questions during the debate, feel free to step in. We really also want to hear your opinion as well, of course. Then over to the panel. We're really happy that we have an excellent panel here today with three people. First of all, Micah O'Chan and Heimans, a colleague of mine, a senior Klingel colleague, expert, a pioneer in the field of exploring digital connectivity within the EU and especially also outside of the EU. We have Eric O'Donovan today, who is the head of the digital economy policy of Irish business and employers confederation since 2016. And he also represents the eBAC networks within national EU and OECD partners on digital policy. And last but definitely not least, we have Helene Bucker. She has been the director of European and international affairs at the Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate in the Netherlands since 2020. And before she has worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and at the Embassy of the Netherlands in the US. So I'm really glad to have you all here together. I think you make a wonderful team. To start with the introductions, I first want to say to the audience, if you have questions, please post them in the Q&A box. Already during the presentations, maybe some questions might pop up, feel free and we will try to make it all work either after an introduction or after all the introductions. Maybe starting with Micah. Micah, thank you for being here. We have seen that governments around the world are struggling to deal with this rapid development digitalization. The policy challenges we see coming from technological changes and the European Union as the regulatory power in the world has grappled to these problems and the public is global gateway among others. Also the digital strategy we have seen. And I was wondering if you could give this panel and the audience some context on what the EU is doing and has been doing the last years and how it relates to its digital strategy, the global gateway and the international outlook the EU has. Yes, thank you for this very important question and thanks to IIA for co-organizing this with us. It's really a great pleasure and the project that you were just describing, Joyce, I think is really fantastic, bringing Europeans together. We're having many talks also as a think tank with, for example, the United States and with partners in Asia. And it's so important that we're also having this EU internally because obviously we can only do this if the EU is very strong. That's in fact a key point that I would like to make and that we hope we can we can get to contributing to with this conversation. I would like to elaborate a little bit on the on the changing geopolitical context. And indeed also sketch a broad picture I think for how the EU can translate this is new vision that you mentioned global gateway already be hit how we can translate that into action because that's obviously done to be the most challenging and the most important part. I think how we're going to do this, Eric from a private sector perspective and Elaine from from a government perspective will will then add to where so I think it was really very well well set up this panel. So as a starting point, let me just say the obvious we're obviously going through a period of very profound change where we see global economics and politics and security increasingly intertwined. Everything new, you know, and then we all have known it for quite some time, but the challenge continues to be how do we act on this. Because, well, states are increasingly more conflictual the domains are more integrated. So we see what I often call a clash of capitalism, where it's no longer the market driven capitalist system that is the only system in town. But we also state driven systems of varying sorts and we have some of that of course differences in Europe also, but the differences with countries outside of Europe is so much greater and that's what we're responding to. We're also responding to this well intensifying clash of course between especially the United States in China, Russia of course of a different sorts and we hear a lot about that these days in Europe, but in the digital connectivity sphere. I would like to stick to just the clash that we see mostly coming between the United States and China because China is such a strong player also in the field is clearly a disruptor. Also in the not so positive sense but it's a disruptor also in the positive sense that it's having you know many new industries many new companies that conquering the world. We bring of course with them standards and systems to other parts and I think this is what we're having to respond to and this is where global gateway to my mind comes in. Because that's the new label given to that EU efforts to to change its well to interlink all the various elements, economics, politics and security, and to do so in its international foreign policy. We know that the EU does not have a clear mandate for foreign policy, but still the EU is wanting now to make a strong well get a stronger role in this. So in a sense I always think it is sort of the external dimension of industrial policy, if you will, because industrial policies of course preparing at home better on the protect side and on the promote side for that clash of capitalism and power shift. And I think that we have forgotten sometimes that this also requires sort of in a change in a similar change in external policy. And to my mind that's what global gateway is. And digital is one very important element in this, because we are going through the fourth industrial revolution, because we have been forced to go online all of us even more than we had wanted, because of this covert period. So digital is very important and that's a change from the strategy that actually preceded global gateway, the connectivity strategy, where digital was one element but really transport connectivity was much more important. In this global gateway is really a focus on on digital. And I think what's important here is that, and this is where I see change in the EU, where we see an interest driven agenda. We are starting to talk about what are our interests in the world and how do we protect and promote them. And this again may sound obvious but I think for a long time we haven't really had to think these through, because we could just assume that many countries would follow our interest and that that we would have shared interest and now we see increasingly more conflict of interest. So we have to more clearly define our interests and I think it's important that the EU is trying to do that to support that in between EU member states, because only if we can get to that sort of common approach, we can have a common EU policy also outside of the EU. And there's a need for digital resilience here of course there's a need for increased economic competitiveness also in the digital fields. We think of course of the big players in the digital field, we think of American companies and Chinese companies, the Googles and the Amazons and the Tencent and the Alibaba's, we need more European companies of that kind of thing. And in some sectors including in the FinTech sector we see strong European players in other sectors less so. So I think it's important that the EU is also investing in this and, and this is also how I see sort of the domestic or the EU internal policy linked with the external global gateway policy, where we also have to sometimes sort of help or assist our companies in going outside. And I mean outside EU external. So I think it's extremely important agenda that we're talking about here. It's not coming sort of out of the blue of course. This is building on to my mind three very important prior wealth strategies that we had also at the EU level. The digital compass of course that was published last year with its focus on digital skills and governance so government public better public governance and digital sphere digital identities offering better opportunities for citizens to access. And different services. Also the business domain. So we see the very comprehensive policies at the EU level and this is spreading now also and of course EU members is contributing to this. Then we also had the Indo Pacific strategy which was sort of the other side of the corner of our China strategy. So this is dealing with the clash of capitalism's if you will the change in, you know, state driven systems and in the world. And then we had the connectivity agenda which sort of, as I said preceded global gateway. But was led by the external action service that in itself could have been, you know, made it a success. But since this is, you know, there's this need to connect the dots really. The external action service the MFA alone cannot do this, you know, we are here of course joined by Helen Bucker of the Ministry of Economic Affairs now. We also have our digitalization ministries or did you connect to the EU. You know, that's the climate of course that's also increasingly important. So it's extremely I think valuable that it was Ursula von der Leyen herself at the very top level that is forcing change and forcing us to connect the dots in a way that, frankly the external action service they tried with the connectivity strategy and they didn't really work. So when I speak to you officials, even just this morning, what's what I'm always happy to hear is that now finally also we're getting money with this initiative, because of course without the money there's not going to be any projects. And there's also a better understanding that the private sector, you know, we need to engage more with our stakeholders in the private sector is a very, very important one. Who are going to build the submarine cables that we're talking about, right, who are going to bring new rules and standards to foreign markets. That's the fintech companies or in other different sectors. It's really the private sector that plays an extremely important role here. And we have to I think, well, to deepen our engagement with them to get a better understanding of what they need. When they go outside of the EU, of course we're having these conversations more already within the EU. And I would love to hear from Eric whether you know what they could do also to help them support going outside of the EU. Because that's really, I think, a next level. This is not something that the governments can do by themselves. So I see really this new vibe for change. It's a new level of energy. It's a new level of commitment and understanding that we also it's not the EU, it's also the member states themselves really that have to build ownership with this initiative. And I think also was where connectivity initiative filled and where this, you know, we hear increasingly more of Team Europe initiative. Happy to elaborate more if this doesn't bring a bell to everybody but this is basically improved cooperation between the EU and member states and stakeholders. And this you could say oh another new label, but I think I really see initiatives already developing. There's an EU team Europe initiative in the making now, where there's also digital connectivity projects that are really being built and for digitalization index. The EU is helping ASEAN countries, so countries in Southeast Asia to develop those so that they can with that index devise better policies for more inclusive digital growth for more well better governance. And of course, this is all governance in the way that the EU likes to see this and that's where I would like to end, because this is not this is as I said, an interest driven approach and their interests align very much with our principles and the human centered approach I think that's, that's also not a hollow phrase. We could have big discussion about that also, but it's really our, our industries that could also help bring more transparency and continuous freedom also online in other countries in the way that we enjoy it in the EU, and that I hope that we will continue to enjoy. So I'll leave it to that for now. Thank you so much. Thank you Micah. You already ended with the human centered approach and how the EU wants to go internationally with this EU global gateway and one question that comes to mind and I have to ask this as a moderator of course is how does it compare to initiatives by for example the US or most specifically China for example the digital silk road is the EU's global gateway is it sufficiently ambitious or do you think, how do you think this will this will end together. Well, the ambition is definitely big it's just, you know, are we going to be able to deliver the project so that's really the question to me. And I, again, if I see that more funds are now attached to it, I take that as an as a sign of more ambitious, but the funds can never be as big as China has been able to to allocate in the past few years. So I think here's where we have to cooperate with partners. So again curious to hear about Helene's take on transatlantic cooperation. And the difference I think is in the United States of course, well the companies have been given a greater role and right it was, well, less regulation and less personal protection of data for example, and the EU took a stance on trying to do different. And, well, I don't have to elaborate on how that clearly also is different from from China where the state has a bigger role, not just in this in this regulatory approach where by the way we sometimes see also you know good science coming from China. And so the question is really also how do we continue to engage China and on what terms, but it's really the EU that has put at center stage now the interest of citizens. And, you know, at a loss, I think also Eric might say this, you know of economic competitiveness. So we're recalibrating this. And for that I think also discussions with our partners and you know the trusted connectivity links that we hear about more often these days are really important. Yes. Well, moving on to Eric then for his first use the more internal vision on the digital transition from a European perspective and maybe also how it relates to for example the green transition you hear a lot of talk about the twin transition digital green. But also as Mike already mentioned the role of companies in this discussion. Thanks Brigette. Good afternoon everyone. And thanks again to both the IIE and Klingendale Institute for the opportunity to participate in today's discussion. And I suppose maybe you're absolutely right. I mean, we are engaging in a green and digital transition. I'll touch on that. I'll touch on kind of where I see Europe now and maybe just offer some thoughts as to maybe where we could go with the transition, maybe in four, four areas. First, I suppose on the digital side first, as I think Micah touched on there, the current commission ambition is to make this Europe's digital decade, while helping achieve its target of climate neutral Europe by 2050. So if we're delve deeper, you have the shaping Europe digital future, which is supposed to be from the period 2019 to 2024 and we've three pillars in that. One is technology, and the other is rules around your economy so fair and competitive. And then the last bit is around being open, democratic and sustainable and just emphasize that bit there. Just in line with your question. And that's, that's led to proposals at a level then around the technology which is AI and first of its kind. On the supply side then there's, there's proposed regulation around data and chips chips act coming down the line, and we'll have to see how that looks. And we've proposed around safety and the markets itself so in around digital services package and an is to. Micah touched on their, you know, last March, the commission proposed a digital compass. I think that's, that's an interesting and it's positive initiative because it includes targets aimed at, at supporting Europe's further digital transition across those four areas public services infrastructure skills and businesses by 2030. And an awful lot of these proposals are again have to be viewed through the prism of technological sovereignty or digital sovereignty, which we can come back to I'm sure when we're in, in the discussion. But we're, we're roughly about halfway through the life of this current commission and 22 months into living with with the covert pandemic so I suppose where are we really now I suppose that's that's the big question. To me the pandemic has greatly accelerated the economic and social imperative for further digitally enabled transformation member states public services and enterprise, and even human interaction across the EU, and it's, and it's accelerated by several years and it's not just our own research with our members. There's studies by McKinsey and a variety of other people kind of saying that it's, it has accelerated digital transformation. And we've seen during the pandemic that digital has been an enabler for this connectivity that Mike was talking about it's been an enabler for work for businesses, learning social interaction, even tracking and fighting the virus. And I suppose research with our own members would show that business is investing in technology in new ways of working and digitally enabled trade. And a lot of that. And there's a lot of studies that would actually say that that change that we've seen is here, here to stay and it will endure beyond the pandemic. We've also seen the benefits of it benefits of region states organizations and individuals pulling together in the face of adversity during the pandemic. And that would fill me with optimism actually, and when we're talking about how do organization states regions get together. Because we've seen the people are able to pull together and that's going to be important going forward. The other thing is that the pandemic has also reflected, as I said the possibilities of digital but it's also highlighted challenges to I would put the challenges as being how do we ensure inclusion of everybody and further digital opportunity, both at home and obviously in our interactions with colleagues across the world. And then in addressing cybersecurity threats as well so there's possibilities but there's also challenges. I think progress has been made. You can see that the studies that the Commission produce in its digital economic and social indexes that it produces these are kind of studies on on performance. And we have front runners and Ireland and Netherlands are included in those right we are digital front runners and Europe, I suppose, this is all kind of positive but I suppose what you see in the desi reports is a lot done more to do really in boosting digital performance and adoption and innovation. Not just in enterprise but in public services and individuals and our infrastructure is all so we still have gaps to close and there's international comparison studies commission has done as well that you know our top performers compare quite well against international front runners, but you know, European countries combined still have gaps close. So it's really a question not just of, you know, our current state of performance, it's both the state and rate of digital readiness. So we're a halfway point really and so where, where do we have to go. So, I suppose when I think about a compass it provides direction so we, but I suppose we all have to be able to read that compass and we all have to be able to adjust direction if necessary and what I mean by that is that we have to have an inclusive digital single market and be dynamic in terms of implementation. Another feature maybe of a compass is that it's also a magnet it's something that people may forget so to me it's it's Europe has to deepen, you know, strategic investment obviously in trusted digital capacities to further this recovery that we're going to need and inclusive readiness and opportunity and resilience etc but we have to also remain outward looking to. So what I mean by that is a magnet for new ideas, investment, mobile talent and trade. And I suppose with that I'd kind of conclude, and maybe with some remarks maybe in four areas like so just thoughts about, you know, where do we go forward so the four areas are we in Europe we need to lead the digital opportunity we need to safeguard further opportunity and we need to be enable, enabling further opportunity and we need to be including everybody in that. So when I talk about leading it, leading this further opportunity. It's about safeguarding an open approach to digital transition so not just deepening our leadership in this area. It's about deepening that leadership in this area without eroding trust in market openness access innovation, and I suppose choice you were asking earlier on, you know, what does business think, you know, that's where I be coming on that is taking an open approach. So I can think is your question about the green and digital, we need to we need to support coherence in the in the digital and the green transition policies the trajectories the enablers. And the reason I say that is because they both these trajectories have mutual dependencies. And so we should try to work to enable both the agendas to work together I suppose. Another thought really in the leadership spaces that we've got to try to work with innovation not against it in our governments. And I suppose the last thing is in the leadership side membership, our member member states themselves. They're very important like they're they're important economic actors itself and they can act as catalysts for further digital opportunity, both in terms of the national strategies that bring about the overall EU strategies, but through procurement and creating gov tech ecosystems. Okay, so, so that's just on the leadership on the safeguard it's, I would agree with a human centered approach definitely agreed with it is a human centered approach to digital. We agree with the idea of open fair, you know, trusted competitive markets and services for consumers and businesses and safeguarding people and businesses online. But that's, that's, you know, pretty obvious because you know safeguarding trust in the opportunity will mean that we'll be able to invest more in it and bring more about for the benefit of people and enabling further opportunity I think, you know we talked about strategies and we've got to kind of we have this idea this ambition to be, you know, it's Europe's digital decade but we've got to intensify momentum now on this initiative so we've got to make sure I suppose the value of the recovery and resilient funds to digital spending are maximized, you know, we put we've committed money this is this fantastic we need to make sure that we're getting maximum value from that. And ensure we've got governance to monitor the spending and momentum in both promoting and realizing Europe's ambitions to 2030 on this. And in that making sure that all, you know, this rising digital tide raises all boats so that all Member States are brought along. And that kind of leads a bit into Helen's talk now in a second really which is, you know, in business with, you know, we're a small open economy so we kind of believe in multilateralism so, you know, we think that Europe working with like my partners like like the US through this trade and technology Council, and we're going to hear about, and by engaging enterprise to shape this digital decade will enable a shared recovery and resilience to further innovation and adoption. And I think just maybe the last thing to say on this is that to include everybody in this further opportunity so I think a huge part of this now, and we're going to see more of this through the recovery is fostering and attracting digital talent. So not just fostering fostering indigenous talent, but attracting talent as well. I mean, so that's helping our educators or organizations and individuals with skills to succeed. And I know in our opening gambit per, you know, the introductory text to this event, we talked about balancing interests, you know, to succeed and that's certainly true to balance it but it's it's also about making Europe interesting to engagement as well. It's a key, key thing so that that openness and approach is of interest to us so that's that's that's my take on it but just by way of opening remarks maybe to spark the debate and I look forward to hearing Helen's view. Oh, it's, it's great that already your talks are so, so much enlightened and coherent with each other but just to stay with you for one second Eric. I hear you talk a lot about the difference between member states Ireland and the Netherlands being examples of really outgoing and developed and digitally enabled countries but we also saw in the pandemic that some member states were a bit left behind that with this digital transition that suddenly was put upon them and I was wondering if you have any views on how you can get every member state to benefit from this digital transition and how realistic is it that all you member states will be able to, for example, develop coherent policies for interacting with the rest of the member states but also with interacting with the rest of the world. I think I think it's a case of show not tell. You know, it's, you know, as I said, you know Ireland and the Netherlands are front runners today but that's not guaranteed. You know, as I opened with Bernard Shaw, maybe I could you know his thoughts of life is not about finding yourself it's more about creating, creating yourself. Okay, so this is in our own hands and but by being open and working with like minded partners I think you know you can't do everything yourself so sometimes you have to get the knowledge in. That's why I'm saying being open to mobile talent because this talent and investment is mobile. And in terms of you know making rising, you know, rising tide, lifting all both. There is a group of like minded countries called the D nine plus that does involve Ireland and the Netherlands as well and these are like minded countries who, and yes they're they're small open, globalized but also highly digitalized countries, but they're getting together to kind of speak up for innovation, you know at European level they're they're working to share knowledge. And actually more recently just before Christmas they've got together, you know, to discuss, you know, twinning the, the green and digital agendas. In my back, who are the Irish Business Federation, we also worked with other business federations across the D nine plus countries. In a joint statement, encouraging them in this work, because that comes back to what I was saying about show not tell it's it's it's to kind of show well, you know, innovation can be beneficial in in dealing with some of these challenges. I think about it like, where are we going after the pandemic we want recovery, right, and but we will also kind of need to address generational challenges and in health and sustainability, technology can enable those. Okay, in the right way and, and that's kind of what we need to do so we have a D nine plus it's it's kind of an ad hoc group and so on and I think that's a positive example of where front runners are working together. to promote benefits and promoting ideas of innovation so it, it's more to showing rather than telling in other words you should do this and you should do that I mean it's it's more encouraging that way isn't it, we always can, if you can see it you can be it is almost is the way of looking at it. Well, that sounds really promising at least. And then turning to the multilateral site and the international partners, the EU but also the member states can work with turning to Helene. Before moving to I want to make sure to to say it one more time, if you have questions, put them in the chat. I have enough questions to fill the rest of the hour but I can imagine that the audience also may have some questions. So, Helene, the floor shows. Yeah, thank you very much, Brigitte and it's a great pleasure to be here and to be doing this together with also our counterparts in Ireland. When I started thinking about the subject of this webinar it's aptly called navigating the digital transition. I was wondering, okay what kind of images does that bring to mind navigating is this the soaking wet sailor trying to keep his ship afloat in the middle of the night completely called off guard in the middle of a storm, trying to steer clear of obstacles, or is it a much sterile almost scientific approach of careful planning and mapping and consequently also being able to stay the course. And I think at the outset let me say that I think that Europe has actually paid a good deal of attention to the instruments that can actually help in proper steering. And therefore it's proven to be a bit of a captain when it comes to the digital transition. But the question of course is can they remain in this leadership role and Eric already posed some interesting questions to that regard. But certainly you also mentioned in your introduction that I was posted in the US working from our embassy in Washington before joining the Ministry of Economic Affairs. And I remember during my tenure there. This was when the GDPR came to light and it was introduced and it was of course a European invention so to speak, but it quickly turned into into a standard global standard. And much to the surprise of our American counterparts, I must add, and it also spurred some questions in regard to their preferred government model. Because there of course the way of thinking and the overriding principle had been so far not to interfere in the market to leave it to companies not to stifle innovation by over regulating. And even today there is no federal law in the US that even closely compares to the GDPR force in 2020 California came with its own consumer privacy act, giving individuals greater power over their information. But so far only a number of free states have adopted their own legislation and at national level there is still a void. The time holds true when you look at the regulation of big tech companies. US government for the longest time, very averse to actively regulate claiming that this was anti business. But companies themselves also started actively looking for it, asking for it this idea that self regulation is a viable option has now pretty much been abandoned. But there was a certain notion that instead of knocking on Washington's door, big tech also knocked on the use door. And here you see again the US is leading the way with legislative legislative proposals, such as the digital markets act, the digital services act. And the US Congress of course has organized hearings on big tech also trying to wrap its arms around ways to break the power base of these of these companies. But they're not yet or not organized in the same way that the European Commission, for example, is with one DG that puts competitiveness first and a DG that puts connectivity first. And so far the experiences that standards have been set in Brussels and companies have been very much aware of it too. I must say this Brussels effect has been diminishing, however, because of the active role of others and most notably China. Now you've asked me to speak in particularly on international cooperation in the digital transition and most notably between the EU and the US I'll gladly do so. But not before also looking back at what Mike has said that there is indeed a changing landscape and others are also trying to put their mark. What Mike was already mentioned has been super active in putting forward legislation after legislation that incorporates technical and digital standards. And of course their aim is also to leave their mark on global trade. So I would say that in today's world, it's evident that the slightly boring and highly technical business of standard setting has become more and more political. And standards are one instrument in the geo economic toolbox, which is all the more reason to get it right. Since clearly there is a relation with the competitiveness of our businesses and our future earning capacity. So the Commission is about to publish a strategy but not quite sure if this is going to be in the first quarter or maybe the second quarter, but a publish to publish a strategy on standards. And from the Dutch government's perspective this, this should treat trigger an even more active approach also from the side of EU member states. And most importantly also an integrated approach because it's not easy to capture the full scope of the forest if you are only looking at one tree. It's all the more important also to work together with trusted partners with whom we share also a set of values, and who like us also approached technological edge and leadership from a rules based perspective. So, last year, the EU and the US together decided to launch trade and technology council. The first meeting of this TTC was held in September last year in Pittsburgh. And the two commissioners that went on behalf of the EU were Don Brovskis and first agar and they adopted several declarations with their US counterparts. And now in the institutional setup there are 10 working groups that should serve as vehicles for discussion between the two blocks and topics under consideration are amongst other standards supply chains, clean tech platforms consumer protection, but also more defensive instruments such as investment screening and export control of dual use goods. I must say for the Netherlands this TTC is extremely important. We'd like it to be maximally effective in the sense that it can serve as a vehicle to facilitate discussion between the EU and US and also to identify possibilities and follow up actions where we can indeed shape the global stage together. In the member state it's always a bit of a challenge to be completely in the know as to what's happening between the commission and the US counterparts in the various working groups, because this is a commission led exercise. The Netherlands does plan to play an active role in shaping the substance of these working groups. The TTC in that respect I think does not just work for the benefit of the EU but also for the benefit of the member states and in relation to that particularly important to us where we have a clear national interest, for example in the field of semi conductors. We want to make that TTC maximally effective and so working through those vehicles of these working groups, but also of course still discussing with the US also in a bilateral manner. In our preliminary input for the Pittsburgh meeting to the commission we argued that TTC can indeed play a key role to bolster the level playing field on which global trade and competition can thrive. And it's important to note also that while EU and US policies may not always align fully and I mean I'm not sharing any secrets here. It's true that our commitment to free markets and shared democratic values do set us apart from more authoritarian regimes. And in that respect, the TTC should lead to improved coordination of approaches to global trade and technology issues. Without, on the other hand undermining the EU's commitment to protecting privacy and personal data. And so this is important to note while we of course favor a joint approach and we think it would be more beneficial to have a joint approach. We also feel that the EU must keep moving forward on its own regulatory approach. The TTC is a good vehicle to look for convergence and alignment and also to determine common key principles. And hopefully the TTC will also help to avert some note notorious transatlantic irritants on trade and technology policies which we've also seen of course. And hopefully these can be these divergences can be identified at an earlier stage and we'll have the opportunity to engage in consultations to overcome them together. In any case, as a confidence building measure we've proposed that the EU and US should agree on a no surprise this policy regarding policy processes on trade and technology and we should also agree to refrain from unilaterally taking measures that might directly affect the other, including through extra territorial effects. And I already mentioned that there's 10 working groups under the umbrella of the TTC and a good number of them actually deal with the digital domain. We have working group one that deals with technology standards cooperation, but also artificial intelligence. And here you can see that the task at hand is to draw up an inventory of all the key technical standards that are actually being set in multilateral organizations. I think we've already mentioned the importance of taking this multilateral approach. We can actually strengthen the EU US cooperation within these multilateral organizations, and make sure that we put our weight in these international bodies such as the IT, the ITU and WIPO and other standard setting organizations. And also when it comes to artificial intelligence in the context of the global partnership on IA. The Internet of Thing is another domain where we can work together. That's also a priority for the Netherlands. The Commission is working on Cyber Resilience Act and here we issued a non paper last year. Now we would like to shape that Cyber Resilience Act. Again, we have certain wishes in that regard but we also keep a very close bilateral cooperation with the US on Cyber Corporation and you can see why I mean in an era where there is so many incidents and texts that we witness and scale in which this affects potentially our societies. It's really important to get the fundamental approach right together. Then maybe another word on working group 5 on which deals with data governments and technology platforms. Here as well we see several areas for cooperation including content regulation. This is an important topic where we strive for harmonizing content regulation while also maintaining freedom of speech. Targeted advertising. So here we foresee an exchange on mechanisms to regulate this targeting advertising in both the US and the EU that would be very useful. Finding convergence in subjects regarding facilitation of digital trade. More understanding for each other's positions. I mean that's an overall objective I think when we discuss the TTC. And also again to boost international discussions. And so those are just a number of issues and we can maybe elaborate on them a little bit more. Those are being discussed under the umbrella of TTC. I would like to end maybe my introduction by saying a few words on digital sovereignty. I believe it's part and parcel of the debate that has very strongly emerged within the EU on open strategic autonomy in our view. This means the capability to guarantee our own public interests in an international context. Yeah, so to speak the maintenance of our own strategic agency on a global stage and where we feel that this agency would be compromised or we are put in a position. And makes it hard for us to meet our own public interests because there are maybe unwanted dependencies in ecosystems or in supply change. We must really look for ways to regain control and strengthen European economic resilience and this is very much on top of mind also during the French presidency of the Council and in Brussels discussions. This also holds true for the digital domain. And Eric has already spoken about this and I very much concur with him that the Netherlands as an open and very outward looking country will always try to work towards strategic autonomy in an open manner, working together with our international partners such as the US. And this is also part and parcel of our tradition as a very internationally oriented country that always wants the rules based legal order to prevail because this creates stability for a trading nation. But we do see that this objective of resilience and the way to achieve it. That's also very clear in the new coalition agreement of the Dutch government. We see the need to do this that to strengthen this resilience. And it does reflect the times we live in and the necessity of clear navigation. And so it's also something I think and Eric also correctly addressed this that if we want to meet our ambitions regarding the digital and the green transitions. It's important to to strengthen resilience in terms also strengthening ecosystems and in the digital area as well. So maybe I'll leave it at that for now and happy to take questions. Thank you. Thank you so much. I think one question which has been posted in the chat so that's great if anyone has more questions post them in the Q&A. And that is about the thing that we are not talking about the economic and the societal digital changes but also substantially security and defense elements that have been or are being digitalized and how does that relate to this society and economically orientated digitalization in the EU what does this digitalization in security mean for emerging competition globally. I can start with Helene, but if any of the other panelists will will also have to floor and just put your hands up and I will give you I will give you the floor on this question. I will say that this digital transition is everywhere so also you see it in the in the area of security and defense of course I briefly touched upon the whole that we find in in cyber attacks but also other hybrid threats that are now more of a reality than we foresaw maybe even 10 years ago and I think governments are forced to sort of come to terms with this with this new reality and therefore, for example very important that the Commission works towards a cyber resilience act as well. I mean, I think when it comes to security and defense it's always harder to come to agreement in an EU setting it's more of still a part of the foreign policy and therefore it comes with its own complications, but absolutely fair to say that of course in this domain. There are also certain challenges that will have to be addressed. Because any of you want to comment on that as well. Otherwise, yes, Eric. Sorry, just maybe maybe not so much security that might be a bit outside my, my level of expertise but just more. I mean I did because I did make the point that if you're needing an opportunity you've got to safeguard trust. Okay, so I suppose just on the cyber security side of things. We do have to take a, I think we are trying to do this but take a proportionate risk based approach in in in pairing and harmonizing our cyber security and resilience. And I'm by that I suppose we need to make sure there's kind of coherence between our different rules. You know, we've got rules on and I asked to we've got the door and we have GDP or and so on so they, you know, ensuring we were coherence on that. And I suppose another thing maybe for business just on cyber security is, you know that offer some flexibility, you know where we're, you know, it's technically feasible as well so that because I suppose we look at things like the nis to enforcement and sanctions, you know, they should be kind of proportionate contextual so you want to incentivize people along on cybersecurity resilience, rather than I suppose if so, you know, that's one one aspect and I suppose just the other thing maybe just on cyber security just as a broad sense like obviously we're obviously in favor of that but it's in engaging in industry and ensuring that the rules and standards, not only just encourage indigenous cybersecurity capacities but we have to remain open to further international cooperation and trade like minded partners so that I suppose we get the benefits of shared information and best practice on threats, and, and that that we not only safeguards cross border data flows but we also get the economic benefits from them as well. I think that's just to suppose maybe to expand on what Helen was saying there too that, you know, being secure but but also being open I suppose with with like minded partners who reciprocate I suppose, you know our values and approaches and so on. Michael. Yes, well I'm also not an expert on security and defense but but even so in in the many discussions that I've had with with officials and focusing also on in the Pacific. What we notice is cooperation also between different trusted partners governments in the world, European and Asian on cyber defense, and this is where our Ministry of Defense for example is establishing new relationships with, well with countries, for example, Australia, Japan, South Korea, that also have capabilities in this field and have different threat perceptions, oftentimes because they are closer to a specific one specific threat geographically than we than we are and have built their defense accordingly. So I think there's interesting learning and best practice exchange also intensifying in that domain so that's where I see actually more cooperation than competition, although well between trusted partners cooperation. Another one that is noticeable is, for example, robotics and autonomous defense systems, where also the impact of AI is obviously huge and, you know, we see sometimes sort of this disaster scenarios of robots that are going to be very, you know, acting by themselves and making the decisions themselves I think most experts agree that's not where we are by far, but there's there's a lot in between and how to regulate how to develop standards to ensure that the competition we see ongoing there is also sort of regulated or actually managed are extremely important so definitely yes in even just these two examples of defense I see I see the digital digitalization also having a huge impact and being a disruptor as well as an enabler here also. Thank you. More than I could expect these answers. Perfect. Moving back to the economic side of things, especially of digitalization of course, and that is the digital policy supporting the small and medium enterprises in Europe across the member states to become more interconnected, not only in terms of collaborative innovation but also from a trade perspective. I think it would be a question for Eric. How are the European policies digital policies supporting that. Sorry, I was trying to get off the mute button there. So again I suppose your digital decade, your digital compass points to that because it's it's prioritizing support for necessary infrastructure skills but also I think to help SMEs it's in adoption as well and connectivity. So, I suppose going back to my comments at the start. How do we ensure that happens. It's, I suppose, we've got the proposal on the digital decade people have made commitments and spending that. We have OECD recommend like at home here in Ireland there's OECD recommendations on helping SMEs adopt digital more and the government is moving to make those recommendations reality again. They're there are things about you know in around infrastructure skills and adoption it's it's that adoption piece, helping businesses in adoption, like because I suppose what's sometimes missed in this debate regatta is that digital isn't just about ICT companies it's about companies who are using an adopting digital innovation and data as well. So like, if you were to look at as was your start data on on on its face value to almost say well, there's 80,000 digital professionals in other words ICT professionals or whatever in Ireland. But if you were to look at people who are working in digitally intensive sectors in other words products, people who both produce and also use those services that that number goes over 200,000. So, it's, it's SMEs who are it's not just you know your startups and your scale ups who are making products and process these are, you know, very very important we need to support them as well. But it's then other businesses who are using those tools, in other words, in other ways. So, I mean, as I said the digital decade is one way they can support obviously I suppose what's happening through the trade and technology council that that can help to. I think where we want to get is I suppose in in country like ourselves and probably again Helen might my answer to the situation and the other lands. We've a lot of foreign direct investment we've also a lot of indigenous tech as well. And, you know, this is this about creating synergies between inward investment in their knowledge economy, and the indigenous sector and building clusters, and that's that's what it's about building clusters can also help. And I suppose as well, member states using, I suppose their their position, I suppose to procurement and so on can help build that gov tech that can help SMEs to. And I think also, you know, maybe in terms of Europe itself where where Europe could also help SMEs is by championing trade and I think that's what Helen was saying in her opening remarks there. Working with the OECD and World Trade Organization to build this multilateral framework that that helps people invest more in further innovation and trade online. And at the same time using, you know, free trade agreements and maybe mutual adequacy decisions as vehicles to promote further bilateral digital trade. Cross border data and service flows while at the same time protecting privacy, you know you want you want the two to go hand in hand. You know, you know, you've also done it by positioning digital at the heart of the trade strategy that helps the small and big companies rebuild and grow both in local and also foreign markets so. And I suppose that by way of those comments maybe that that's that's the way I would look at it. So you're nodding Helen do you agree with Eric. And your mute button is still. Right, sorry for that. No yes maybe if I can add to that. I think a lot of the digital skills aspects were addressed also in the publication that the Commission did on the digital compass and it's a very comprehensive document setting out objectives in different, in different areas. And I mean, for the Netherlands and we rank pretty high on this daisy index of digital skills and so yeah the assumption is that there is a certain digital maturity with with a good 80% of our population. But still, when you talk about small medium enterprises we do feel that there are extra challenges. And also, the Commission is right to to address these and within the context of the digital compass. And when we had to make an appreciation of that publication around time it came out we also informed our parliament that this would be a focal point of our attention, because we are not quite sure the Commission put quite ambitious goals forward in the digital to get to a certain basic level of digital intensity by 2030, but how to measure this exactly was a, yeah, still a bit in the open is a question mark for us. For us it's really important that, yeah, stakeholders such as SME and chambers of commerce that they are also involved in, in, in implementing these, these different stages in the road to digital maturity, let's say because we see that SMEs of course also have been hard hit by the pandemic. They're already struggling in many respects and and this is also putting a challenge for them and not just in the Netherlands, which ranks pretty high up on this daisy index but other EU member states as well this is certainly an area where we, yeah where we, we can't leave it you know we can't lose sight of it in the implementation. So it's an important point. Yes, Micah. Yes, I was wondering perhaps if I can interpret the question a little bit differently the question was maybe about support to SMEs for the digital transition that they are going through. Or was it also a question of support for, you know, companies that work in the digital sector of, you know, FinTech or otherwise. If it was that I would also, you know, add to what just has been said that, you know, the importance of ensuring that, you know, there's sufficient funds and European funds for scale up. But when we have successful companies, they can actually also scale up and stay European, because, you know, many of them have been bought up by, you know, American or increasingly also Chinese apparently bigger companies and that is I think it goes at the long term loss of our economic competitiveness. So that's to me also, you know, an area where I think we have to be thinking of if you're thinking of support to SMEs for digital domain. Yes, and maybe to stay with you for for a second Micah would you also say this would improve digital resilience. That's not a question from the chat how can we improve digital resilience. Well, some part of it is in the technology of course that we built, because technology is not neutral. You know, sometimes still you hear people saying it is neutral. I think it's not, you know, the one the people who develop this have their own, you know, set of values and they develop these accordingly. So knowing actually the technology that we use and then making sure that you know what we actually most people here use has certain values and more is more secure. I think it's important. And then the skills of course, Elaine mentioned it, the basic skills because there's the advanced skills and the basic digital skills and I think that's a huge different we are competing also for advanced digital that's something also that we need to invest in for the long term economic competitiveness but for economic resilience it's really also basic skills and more for that. Well, I don't think I will have to elaborate. I'm sure Eric and Helen would have better things to say. On this issue of digital resilience I think it's very multifaceted you can look at it at different ways but but overall I think to to safeguard our resilience is very important that we have our own house in order that the foundation is right so that has to do with also the single market and making sure that what we agree on is enforced in terms of the single market but also we can still improve and deepen the single market when it comes to the digital domain. Then I think it was interesting to hear Micah say regarding the global gateway that this is kind of the external dimension of the industrial policy that the EU is pursuing right now. If you look at the EU's industrial policy and the strengthening of ecosystems and the instruments that are being designed for that. I think it's very much geared towards increasing our digital resilience for example. By putting forward these alliances between between industry stakeholders also governments could work together in the context of important projects of common European interest there which also have to do with the digital infrastructure the digital infrastructure the cloud infrastructure. The Netherlands has signed up to this this important project of common European interest I never know how to pronounce the abbreviation but it's a or it can on cloud infrastructure. So, so trying to see how we can improve our own standing so it's for me very much a layered approach which starts with getting your own foundation right there to make sure that all the achievements of the European project, such as the single market but also our competition framework our trade policy framework are all sort of stepping stone stones to build towards this resilience and then yes indeed to to get the right kind of incentives for for the private sector to actually maintain our our edge in the technology and to to be able to keep this this technological leadership which will translate in a in a more resilient more digitally resilient Europe. And for me and where I'm going on a regatta I suppose it's it's three C's really on that and I think the Micah and Helen have touched on this but it is it is coherence is maybe the first bit so you know it's and it said coherence at all I mean we do need to complete the single market. It's not just me saying this now it's it's European institutions themselves, you know that the European Parliament research services and so on. We would kind of have research on this thing that the single market is kind of incomplete and we still have, you know, conflicting rules and I suppose I did touch that on that in some of my remarks that, you know, in. I think to kind of lead on on regulation globally but you have to ask why you know to what end, what's the impact going to be. So, I mean, you know, completing the single market is definitely is definitely one and I suppose second then is coherence in the rules that we're making that would be kind of cooperation second thing. Coherence second one is cooperation and I think we've touched on this a bit throughout the the the talk, which is, and I've listened to some some of the other talks actually in this series which very much have enjoyed, you know around chips and and a variety of different things like that and and what's quite obvious in a lot of this is that. Of course we have to develop our own capacities where we have weaknesses but that also does not mean that we try to do everything ourselves, you know that that's. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me we still have a very globalized world and trade does actually reduce conflict and bring about getting people talking to each other there's cultural exchange this is you know historically shown and so on so. As it was cooperation, and we talked about that with the TTC as one example but you know obviously from our perspective and maybe you know small country like ourselves, the more open and engaged we are with the world and that we have more engagement and less conflict, then that brings more stability it brings more trade and it's obviously good for hopefully for everybody. Cooperation would be the second thing. But to me as well it's actually three it's capacity building. And I think Helen touched on this is it's, it's capacity building in our people. So, for people who need to upskill or reskill if it's for the coming talent that we need. And you know infrastructure as well I suppose so building capacities in all of these areas. And it's not just how I put this maybe just to throw it out there be controversial it's not just capacity building in things we already have I mean I know in earlier in the discussion we're kind of saying well when when will Europe have the next. You know whatever platform or whatever I mean. That's what kind of exists today what about tomorrow. So in other words I think Europe has to be not just thinking about. How do we build something that's comparable to what already exists, you know I know people are saying that, is that always necessary. Should we be thinking about what's the next big thing. And that's, that's about investing in the R&D, and that capacity building is very important because ultimately the more competitive you are the more you have more money you have to then fund the things that you want to do, whether it be resilience like fighting pandemics and so on. So competitiveness. It's kind of, as long as I've been with I back, you know, competitiveness always been an issue. And after after the pandemic, it's still going to be an issue you know so because through competitiveness, and I do believe we do have a resilient model of substance here and we are, we are moving in this green and digital transition. So, you know it's capacity building is going to be important so investing in the innovation piece. I think we haven't really touched on that I do think we need to emphasize that as well. It's not just for building what's here today but to quote Joyce you are tomorrow what not Joyce O'Connor now obviously but James Joyce, another illustrious Joyce, but we are tomorrow what we what we do today so obviously if we invest in innovation today, we're going to be more innovative tomorrow and therefore more competitive. And I think that would make us more resilient. Yeah, one thing that directly comes into my mind is for example, quantum which is now something that is being invested in but it's still really new and it still needs a lot of R&D before it's even slightly on the market. I see the time and I think we can have one more question. And that would be something to look at the future like what would be the key thing the EU should prioritize going forward, and it can be an innovation such as quantum quantum but it could also be a partner and maybe more invest in relationships for example with Japan or South Korea or India what is like the blind spot. The priority you want to give away at this at this webinar. And maybe we started Micah and Helene and then Eric you will be the last one to have the floor and then real quick everybody because we only have one minute left. Okay so real quick just one key takeaway that I would like to emphasize again. It's not a blind spot because this is you know we're slowly getting there but it's you know could be much faster should be much faster with in between all stakeholders and that's really again the digital connectivity element of global gateway, which I think is really about the four elements of the digital compass also externally. So let's not just look at the EU but let's realize that our resilience is only also dependent on the environment and the surroundings that we live in. So we can be secure, you know all fine but we're in interconnected world and especially our neighboring regions but also the regions closest to you know where the where the difference is the biggest. So that's why we have to be much more active and also take those four elements of the digital compass. Yeah, I can't do any cherry picking honestly I think I think we need to move on different fronts, so to speak so. I think yes the four elements of the digital compass are extremely important but it's also good to approach the strengthening of European resilience with with some new dynamism, let's let's say and in that sense I'm really happy to be the doorstep of this new development which in the coalition agreement has really made the case for a strong role of the Netherlands. In the European Union to make the European Union maximally effective and very good to be open towards the outside world that is still have that that emphasis on international cooperation I think it's in our in our genes and we should remain true to like Eric said, and within the EU to make sure that that we can actually achieve results and if it helps to be in a group like the D nine for example which which tries to set the agenda and move forward on on common goals. That's really very helpful and I think we're ready and happy to do our part in that. Thank you, Eric real short because your three seeds were already very eliminating. Well again very quickly again I think it is about deepening the investment in the capacities but also remain outward looking to whether it's to investment mobile talent trade. I suppose one other thing which be super would be, you know, transatlantic agreement on, you know, successor maybe to privacy shield as well would be would be fantastic to further progress and encouraging both the EU and the US on that side. So, that's, that's me. Thank you so much. We will let the audience go now, but not before I thank you the panel one more time, Michael Helene Eric Joyce. It has been really a pleasure I could speak for hours about this topic so. But I will let you go because we all have to go back to work. And of course I want to thank the AI colleagues for hosting this session today. I think it has been a fruitful discussion and nice joint cooperation. And for that, I want to say goodbye to you all thank you for being here and have a nice afternoon.