 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very pleased to have back our old friend of the show Brooks Tegeler Brooks welcome back Glad to be here old friend old friend. Yeah, it's been It's been a few years you were you were on a really early episode here where we did a biography of Jean Krupa Which I'll tell people that we're gonna talk a little bit about Jean's background As a as a you know as a person but But Brooks did episode 7 of the podcast which was really a deep dive into Jean's life But what we're talking about today is Brooks has just released On Hudson digital his book that he's been working on for basically a decade Gk the tools that built the Jean Krupa legend. So first off congrats on releasing this This unbelievable, you know Documentation about Jean's life. That's pretty huge. Thank you. Thank you. I'm pleased that it's finally out there Yeah, oh my god, that must be such a relief. I really talked about it in our episode, but Man, I mean tell it here is the irony there of all of that is the fact that you know a lot of people have been expressing an interest in seeing the book for several years ever since I started talking about it and I I got to I got to the point where I was actually feeling Like, you know, am I am just posing here because I you know I would keep talking about this book coming out and then nothing was there So I had to pick a spot where I finally just said, okay, I'm gonna close this and You know, maybe there's a there's a new chapter or a new portion or whatever which I can add to later Which is the cool thing about? Digital books that you can you were telling me before before we started when we were kind of getting our technical stuff figured out that you can Add on to this book later. Yeah, I've never really thought about that. So cool. Yeah Well, I gotta say that probably one of the greatest people I've worked with in my life is Rob Wallace And when he told me that that was actually not not only was it possible, but it was okay and preferred that solved a huge dilemma for me because As I've said to a number of friends of mine There's 320 pages in that book, but there's probably another five hundred pages in my head and You know who wants to get an 800 page book? So that's a lot. Yeah, I love the fact plus. I've also true experience With things like John Hancock's marvelous book on the Carnegie Hall concert Yeah, a lot of information doesn't actually appear until something like that is is published Yeah, so, you know, I'm still anxiously waiting for that guy who says, yeah My grandfather won that gene group of snare drum in 1936 and it's up in my attic, you know Yeah, so that's the information that would be coming out is more info on You know, they find something hidden somewhere or like that Uh, you know Container full of drums that you authenticated for yeah watts, which right we'll touch on later. Um And and I should tell people too that I'm gonna I'm gonna try and start doing it with every episode, but um Brooks is kind enough. He's gonna help me and do like an extra little 20, you know 15 20 minute patreon bonus episode that we're gonna record So if you like this and want to hear more I think we're gonna talk about gene kind of as a celebrity and a little bit just more about Brooks and his involvement and then who knows what we'll just kind of see what happens There'll be some extra stuff on an on a bonus episode. You can get through joining patreon at drumhistorypodcast.com but um anyway on that note Uh So Brooks, I think maybe I think a lot of people know about gene krupa. Um, he's just Just this, you know, legend in the drum world of being such like a gentleman and he's a celebrity and and I've always had a I don't know why I mean, I do know why I've always had sort of a connection with him because my grandpa Who was kind of why I got into drums? Um grew up in in you know more of the upstate new york area and would always tell these stories of like Hey, uh hanging out at like and not you're gonna know Obviously, you know so much more than me but hanging out at like eddie condon's bar and things like that and I think that and he was taught by george wetling for a little bit and um And they just kind of crossed paths. I think with gene being a yonkers guy, but um, anyway on that note That's kind of why I've always just loved gene and had this sort of Been drawn to him, but why don't you? give us the uh the kind of the the 10 cent tour here of like a little bit about gene Top level if people want to hear more go to episode seven and really get the deep dive But like who is gene? Why is he so important? And uh, what was his you know, what is his legacy? well, I think probably most know I mean any drummers Over the age of six Are you know aware of the gene was born chicago 1909 yesterday was indeed his birthday. Yes um and The beginnings of his career were always I mean they've been over dramatized and terrible movies about him But I'll stay off that so box um He He was immediately fascinated by music Um, he started out as playing saxophone not drums um drums are an affordable option in Catalog where he was the music store. He was working with his older brother So he got those but obviously it was I think more than just the fact that they were the cheapest thing in the book Um, he was always fascinated by playing. He was always fascinated by the different sounds the different voices, etc Etc. He carried that innocence about that instrument straight through his entire life Loved had a just a voracious appetite for learning anything and everything about Precaution and drums and drumming was smart enough. I think force forward thinking enough To listen to some cylinder recordings of expeditions to To africa where they recorded african drummers. That's cool. And So much of what became his signature Floor tom work was based predominantly on that um And One has to assume the genes sat down and worked out patterns By ear when he was young Yeah, because it wasn't until later in his career that he actually was able to read and transcribe music but his ears were A direct solid connection to his arms his wrists and his hands And he was able to put what he heard In practice Quickly, obviously But obviously growing up in chicago hanging out in the jazz scene of chicago. It's included people like dave tough baby dots or as he used to say in his chicago accent baby dots And people like that He came from a much more raw jazz upbringing Then the people that he eventually started to hang out with in new york And brought all that influence with him Moved to new york in the late 20s got married to ethyl and Started his just rocket The trip to success with benny goodman Where a lot of the innovations in drums and drumming were actually taking place in the late 30s mid to late 30s By 38 it started his own bands because he always wanted to Because everything's he wanted to do the first thing he did was add a second floor tom Which was you know details about that particular drummer in the book Most drummers were not using a 16 by 20 inch 20 lug floor tom And he made good use of quite a few of them Yeah, so and then it gets you know the the rest of the details of his career The whole focus shifted from chicago to new york But one of the things i learned while working on this book was how much new england Had become a pivotal area in his life and his career Well, uh, I don't know for certain, but I believe not one but both of his wives were actually from new england interesting, um is many many adventures to the zilgin plant in quincey massachusetts this the tune massachusetts was a huge hit for him in the band and Many many other connections many of his good friends People that he would just go visit Were in new england. They were in massachusetts They were you know, I mean there was so much going on in places like boston in those days He toured quite a lot with benny Where I think a lot of these friendships were originally generated And these are people that gene was friends with his entire life um And it was just kind of interesting to learn Because you don't think about it most people know anything about gene. They think chicago and then new york And it stops there. Well, he you know, he established friendships, of course all over the country In many respects all over the world, but there was something about new england that just kind of Keeps coming up Yeah So there must have been a hell of a jazz scene in boston You know boston even today I run into things where like i'll meet people through the show and a lot of really great Just people like hard-working drumming, you know people it I'm never surprised when they say I live in you know, boston or new england like our mutual friend Don mccally who's just been you know Oh that guy. Yeah You know probably probably one of the greatest people i've ever worked with and met don is just wonderful guy Exactly and he's a new england guy, but um, yeah, so you know Good uh good good folk there. Yeah, but I think also the fact that uh, so much of the drum industry started there Exactly, you got your jordan's own. Yeah. Yeah So it just a fascinating little sideline Um to learn while going through a lot of this research And of course as I said, you know genes influence spread Worldwide, I mean there are people who are staunch, you know Fyke to the death gene group of advocates in places like the uk and and france germany places where gene went um It's just a monumental influence All over the place and it continued Um straight through I have to say, you know When he started his band in march of 38 When he put the when he closed down the big band in 51 Went along with jazz at the philharmonic and small group things like that television appearances. I mean it really I've always said and I say it in the book He's the drum counterpart to louis armstrong in my opinion Yeah, that's a good one where it basically it changed the world. Yeah in in one way or another even if you know joe schmoe in you know, um It's cheboygan doesn't really know about gene krupa in some way. It's affected the music down the line You know, I mean absolutely the music and the equipment And I have to say probably to a certain extent The demeanor of drummers. Yeah, I don't think I've ever noticed a deeper sense of community With other instrumentalists that I've seen with drum. I agree completely, you know I mean I I need us to say Leading working with hundreds and hundreds of horn players If you get two guys together that have the same selmer mark six, they'll talk for days But all it takes is one guy showing up with his yamaha alto And in that sense of community goes straight out the window Now I've even seen it with us drummers where like, you know, you're sitting at like a Like it happened to me once like at a dentist's office and you see someone like Tapping their fingers in a certain way and you go You I even said to one guy was like are you a drummer and then and he was like, yeah I am and it's like you can tell because obviously you're if you're tapping in a A rhythm and hitting your foot and it's like right there you get this like This bond and and it happens a lot with even I'd say musicians I had a handyman hanging up like a chandelier in my house the other day and He was a guitarist There was this like total cosmic change in like how we talked After we found out we're musicians, but if it's drummers you go even Even deeper, but Yeah, do you think with gene? Um And to kind of bring your book into this so so obviously again to hear the whole story on gene go to the episode seven, but um Gene obviously is a is a is a handsome guy He was at the right time when jazz was booming. I mean it's almost like gene was like The perfect storm of like Right place right time right guy Gear is changing the world is changing. It's becoming more more modern roaring 20s. Um What's your thoughts on that? I mean he just came in at the right time Like I do believe that with any successful career Probably the bulk of that success can be attributed to just luck You know, I mean it could have been the gene had refused to join benny's band Because buddy rogers was paying him so much money He couldn't leave that gig and history would have been quite different So sure, I mean fate has a lot to do with it, but it's what people do Once that luck shows up and gene Came through as it were. I mean he he he probably There are a number of things I refer to in the book about his Nervousness about starting his own band as bad as badly as he wanted one He was scared to death and thought several times about just bagging the whole thing As many side men or people who abuse to be side men Will do it's quite a step because as I've said Based on my own experience There's a certain element of the minute you start your own band you cease your musical development Because all of a sudden you're somebody else. You're a band leader You know a band leader who plays drums is the worst Because not only do you have to make all the band leading decisions You've got to slap your equipment in there And you know that old legend about being the first in and the last out boy There's no better example than a drummer being a band leader No, and it's like when you get With a with a job if you're like, you know, one of the the guys or one of the gang one of the You know the people working there and then you become the manager. Yeah boss, right? Things change a little bit sure and they changed a lot for gene, but Gene never changed himself. He admitted that it it went to his head for a while um But he also frankly was the victim of other people Not wanting to let him be successful um, so He you know slings and arrows and all of that sort of thing was quite applicable to gene Outrageous fortune being that there were people who just wanted to knock him off any pet the story came near They still do There are plenty of people out there who just cannot Will not acknowledge the value of this man And his legacy and what he's done for jazz and drumming They can't even bring themselves to call him a jazz drummer Um, so their loss in my opinion, but yeah, he came through. I mean he He did it with class. He did it with taste And you know, there's just nobody Like it never has been Except possibly Louis Armstrong Yeah, you know and and we'll talk about him and buddy rich later a little bit in the show, but there's there's like that You know That guy where everyone loves buddy, but they're not and people I always post whenever I post a video of of the gene krupa buddy rich Battle quote unquote someone always goes. Oh man, buddy's blowing the doors off of him you know and but it's it's Different it's just a different type of of um of drumming and and obviously as a person and um gene is known as being such a nice guy and buddy's famous for having an attitude Well true and unfortunately, this is something that I always have an issue with this In that in particular that sammy davis jr. Show recording. Yep shows an unfortunate Bad moment for gene And to look at it out of context is in my opinion not really fair Um because it was the beginnings of gene's bad health Directly affecting how he played Well, he got seven years later. I mean he it's not I mean he was It's towards the end of his life. Yeah and it doesn't show gene in The light that it should okay. I mean it's fine. It's real It's true gene and you know the to me the greatest accomplishment about that particular clip Is what gene's able to do in spite of his own illness um and Without that as the preface To watching that video. It just looks like He's you know He shouldn't be there next to buddy And the whole thing about buddy was that He always realized that as far as slingerland and an endorsement Gene was the guy and he always seemed to interpret that as competition And yet at the same time there was no greater advocate for gene than buddy. Yes So again, it's so much more complicated And I hate to say it but there are lots of people out there that just go for that shiny object stuff You know when they and don't apply any depth to what they're seeing or what they're showing And you know, there's their volumes written about that kind of thing that just really mean very little in it You know in the grand sense of what gene is all about what buddy was all about Exactly Yeah There uh, it's it's it's not apples and oranges in a way, but it's it's just different people Yeah, but and and I love that. I know I know you talked about it in our other episode where Like you said a second ago, buddy just was such a big fan of gene and and there's not this competition and I mean really there they're both Two of the I mean, obviously you have your john bonhams and you have all these guys who were such famous drummers but those two guys are household names to this day where Everyone knows them. So I think just that alone is there's plenty of room to be You know and the fact that In my opinion again, you're the expert So but like the fact that gene was the one who was basically like the you know with sing sing sing and stuff like that was the first guy to really Do these kind of drum solos he really paved the way For what buddy could do even they're not that far apart in age. I mean isn't There's seven years different. Yeah, not that big of a difference, but when the world of music is completely changing I mean seven years Yeah, it was it was a considerable difference. The irony is the fact his buddy Of course, excuse me was playing drums before gene Um because of his because of his fogbill career sure and I this is one of those things that Um Frankly it bugs me a lot that people can't resist this They cannot accept two things without making a comparison. Yeah, and it's a comparison that has no value at all You know if you could make a comparison because you're buying one or the other And you could go factually down the list of pros and cons for each one That's not what you do in art in music with you know It's it's it's something that Should just be left alone Frankly, there's buddy gene. There's morello. There's there's butch. There's I mean, you know exactly Yeah, well, okay. So on that note, we'll leave it alone. So I want to talk more about your book because I mean it almost I mean again. I recommend people get it Um, what's before we talk about it? What's the easiest way for people to get this book? Is it going to Hudson music calm and Searching for it there. Is that probably the quickest way to get it? I believe so and I believe it's still in the new releases portion of their website, but yeah, that would be just you know straight the hudson public I think it's just hudson music Yeah.com and you can do a search and you'll see type in gk or whatever and it should be popping up there but yeah, so When i'm looking through this book, I mean and I I knew from you know Seeing some of your work that you sent me last time where you're authenticating the drums for charlie watz that we've talked about in another episode. I believe episode 14 with brooks, but um It it's almost like a court document where there's like arrows. It's so like Like like what snare is this what I mean? It has so much detail. I'll take that as a compliment bark Compliment. I mean it is the most like Just detailed and and and and and like uh, what's the word i'm looking for just uh, you you went through everything with a fine-tooth comb and And basically it's everything you'd ever want to know about jeans gear And and everything like year by year almost month by month. Um So how did you I mean, I don't want to have you give away your secrets, but like how do you What's your process on authenticating? Let's say The throw-off on a particular snare or whatever you can pick a you know subject, but What how are you doing this? How are you making all of these? Um, you know unbelievable findings and Well, a lot of a lot of it has to do with my own personal knowledge of the equipment The fact that I've been a collector of slingerland and radio king drums since 19 Good grief 78 I guess 79 So I have firsthand experience on a lot of the nuances of that particular kind of drums And of course, you know a lifelong study of gene There are things you can recognize That most people don't even pay attention to that are the the details the nuances that If you have the photographs of gene Then you have a support system for Showing what stuff was I can remember as a kid looking at pictures of gene still with benny Where I'm looking at a snare drum and there are four holes Underneath the throw-off Well, I had to find out what that meant Well, okay, that meant further study. So it was all just this ongoing cascade of gathering information Studying pictures. I mean I I've been accused by Friends of you know zoning out while I'm staring at a picture There's so much in one picture that to find Yeah, that I would you know, I mean I used to do the same thing just looking through the slingerland catalog And you know so looking at details like The fact that there's a nine by 13 tom tom On gene's lap in a particular movie scene Realizing right away what that drum is Realizing it's the same drum that shows up everywhere for like 10 years um, it's a matter of Maybe it's just because I'm such an ardent Sherlock Holmes fan That you know one Deduction leads to the next answer, but it also leads to like 20 more questions. So that's all I've done You know, it's it started with pictures Looking at films of gene playing That of course is what probably Sets me apart from my dear friend jerry Brennan Jerry has a phenomenal knowledge of of recordings of gene And hundreds of other drummers too. I mean, it's the kind of thing where I marvel at what he knows as far as Dates times places personnel stuff that I could never retain so I guess you know if we would ever sit down and do a conference about gene We would pretty much with the help of paul testa be able to cover every detail about gene's entire life Yeah, but that's pretty much it It's just looking at pictures really is where it starts And of course the desire to do it And I mean it's to explain a little bit about the detail like I mean, so the book you said is 320 Pages, right? Right. So, I mean, you know halfway through I'm just kind of scrolling down and there's you know Measurements on the width of gene's hi-hat and certain photos. There's the felt seas using to prop it up in a way I mean there are Photos from all the movies. There's segments on I mean right right here. There's the tilt on his ride symbol There's There's so many cool things. There's all of his symbols you have documented here Now obviously in one conversation, there's Too much to cover in in, you know, every little detail But sure is there anything that you found in your research? Like I know that there's the like at the chicago drum show where it was set up was it was You know, he had the dynasonic that came out and and I don't think he used it much but In in the big picture, are there many things that you in your 10 years of working on this? We're just totally surprised by like, uh, you know that just you didn't think Be and then it turns out there it is Well, I would have to say that the existence of the two dynasonics Was certainly a big one on that list Although I agree. I don't think he liked them Uh his His ex-wife referred to them as the buddy snares And it's like the story of the guy in australia that popped up on facebook recently I'm afraid I can't remember his name But he was a student of jeans Jean gave him a Ludwig snare drum That reportedly was given to gene by buddy You know again all of these things and that has a lot to do with why I started this book also And I it would not surprise me that buddy just you know I really like this snare drum gene. You should try it and handed it to him You know, I mean, buddy certainly didn't have the same affection for what he was using for the most part Yeah, that gene did Um and so yeah, I think that these are things that Um how many years, you know as the rumor Been flying around the gene had a dynasonic And then of course the question is where did that rumor start? So, yeah, that was a big shocker Um I don't know I'd have to give Some thoughts Um, I think I mean there were so many discoveries that I made Through the course of working on this book They were quite surprising And yet at the same time because of the way they were discovered They made perfect sense. So I think that took a little the edge off the excitement Uh, the special tom mount system that gene used and I saw what is that? What's the special tom mount system? Well, it's a it was a flat bar system That somebody at slingerland came up with That as I say in the book there were there were times when gene indeed was the The guinea pig user of you know Of every hair brain scheme that ever came out of the company This was one of those where The idea was to have absolute and complete adjustability And that was done with continuing to use the rail consulate base But have a different rod and a different system Mounted on the tom tom shell, which was basically just a flat bar Clamped onto the rod Or the rod clamped onto the flat bar you could slide it up and down Nearly the entire length of the shell It didn't work. It was absurdly heavy Yeah But gene actually used that mount system on at least two of its tom tom And you can see that in uh quite a few pictures between the probably 48 And 53 And then of course it was gone. Well The age old story about the nine by 13 that was Allegedly stolen from the loading dock behind the tree and on ballroom That happened to show up in don bennett's collection And was for sale The first thing I noticed because there's always people who would contact me and say is this really gene And I would have to oftentimes say I need to see more pictures than just one Yeah, I looked at and I said, uh, there they are the two holes That originally held that flat bar mount So I knew that drum was genes from the very beginning I did some research and found out what dates he was at the tree and on And how they corresponded To the drum itself No question drum verified Um As far as a lot of the other what would seem more generic drums the gene had They all had little nuances little details The bass drum that's up in At the zilgen plant Um has the original painted head on it It does not have the original hardware on it Because it turns out after talking to the guy who donated the stuff to the zilgen It was all changed because the original lug casing for following apart Uh, so yeah, I mean, you know Interesting digging with a big shovel, but at times being able to use a spoon if you have to And that's that's my metaphor for the day That's a that's a good one I want to ask you about a super specific kind of random one. I just kind of scrolled by it, but I'm I'm very interested in this Uh, sort of minor little detail about genes drums, but it's it's a big one that you see all the time It's the stage screw Which I'm always interested in that because right now we take for granted the fact that you know there's uh There's there's things now literally created to stop it like the kick block and the k-brakes and stuff and and the the the Spurs are stronger, but So can you explain what a stage screw is? These were these are cast iron um giant screws um And usually had three holes or four And the whole point was in order to secure a base drum from moving forward You would set the base drum and then you would run this screw straight into the floor And it would be the block that the later rim mounted um What you know called anchors Yeah served the same purpose Did they have while we're talking about the gear? A lot of times bass drums before then you know earlier would be a marching bass drum that was converted But like there still were on these era of drums like You know spurs like feet coming off right for some stability But it wasn't stopping the sliding as well as drummers right and I I think there's some misconception about what those Rim mount spurs were for they as you say they were for stability. So the thing didn't roll over um But there were any number of innovative ideas about how to keep the bass drum from walking away Yeah, not least of which was tie a rope to the bass drum pedal Clamp that down and then tie the other end of that rope to your seat And you know that worked okay as well um So and then you can still see film clips of guys I saw on the other day and I can't think of what it was Where they've done nothing about stopping the bass drum and spend half their time pulling the bass drum back towards them Yeah, there's a wonderful picture of gene in 42 Playing a concert that was a tribute to fath's waller and One of the shots when he's in obviously in the middle of a solo Is the bass player John Kirby leaning forward Standing to the right of gene's bass drum holding it in place Which you'd you know, you'd think that somebody would have figured out To at least get the poor guy a rug something anything to keep this bass drum from wandering around But there's you know, there's a legendary bass player Leaning over holding gene's bass drum in place while gene played. I've always loved that picture That's so cool. And I there's a video of elvin jones. I think it's elvin jones. I mean he's playing a solo and he is Chasing his bass drum Higher time, but I have a picture of my grandpa tom connop who passed away last year who And people still do this to this day. He was playing with some guys. There was a guy playing like a um A clarinet and then I think there was a bassist and he was on the drums And his bass drum had a big cinder block in front of it for obvious reasons, which that's another way We've all done that we've all played a gig where you go. Oh my god. I don't have a A rug. Give me something heavy. Yeah, put it in front of this thing right Well, again, I mean so much of the of the development of drum equipment And like any other equipment, I guess you could say was based entirely on need um, and Yeah, I mean, it's the only way you could get your bass drum to stop walking across the floor Was to tie it to your leg Then you know so be it And And it's I guess it's another contribution that gene made that there were many things that were figured out Based on his use of these things are and you know innovations in Virtually every piece of equipment that he had That he would try first or he and a few others would try but case in point the Fully tunable tomtoms You know that was all gene how they were done was sam rollin, but it was gene who actually was the one who made it happen um Yeah Before that as you know, but maybe people don't know that they would be tacked on heads which couldn't be Tuned right other than other than with heat or humidity sure. Yeah. Yeah, but again He had the first as far as I've been able to tell he had the first American made tacked head That was um Seen by most people the other thing people need to remember is the fact that We didn't have a system of communications visual communications that we have now So the only time somebody would actually have been able to see one of gene's drum sets is if they were there And you know, of course somebody in california Had no idea what gene's drums look like unless they saw a picture in downbeat Until they came to whatever the palomar or the You know some other place so the information transfer was much slower Yeah, which is sort of uh The level of celebrity he got to um It just it's it's that much more impressive that there wasn't you know posting something on facebook or doing all these uh these little things he had to You know word of mouth spreads which which I do think also is kind of more of like a There's like a he's like legendary in that regard obviously He definitely earned his fame. That's no question about it And a lot of the earning of that fame came from his equipment You know, I mean look at what happens I posted this the other yesterday um To the finish white marine pearl which originally was not called white marine pearl. It was just called marine pearl um, the white was added later, but Look looked at what what gene can be credited for there You know, um He chose he liked that finish who knows why Uh his first 28 inch slingerland bass drum was white marine pearl It's to this day probably The most popular most revered Drum finished of all Yeah, you know, and I would be willing to bet you because of the volume of influence that gene offered If gene liked orange sparkle, we'd all be playing orange sparkle sets today In some weird alternate universe Yeah, right for gold satin flame, you know Yeah, no, it's kind of there's like a um Gosh, there's there's just like a like an like an excellence There's just like a like a beauty to white marine pearl that it really goes back to those to those guys. It's it's like, uh It's just a part of history. Um, yeah, I think it's it's elegant as gene was that's The perfect word. That's what I was trying to find Now while we're talking about gene's drums and and and you know his obvious huge impact All right, so how many of these You're you probably know about all of them I would think or most of them probably can't know about every single thing. Um, because it's still coming up But how many gene krupa drum sets? And in this gear is still out there like what's your take on all that? Well, there are isolated pieces and the the equipment that we put together for charlie Of the things that were discovered in 2018 Is probably actually the only true drum set complete Everything else is bass drums and there are uh There are quite a number of those actually Three were discovered in 2018, but I have authenticated at least three other ones Um of the earlier era the radio king period um and Tom tom's there a number of those out there too. Uh I think don still has the nine by 13 and the the uh My good friend joe lanny Has been building up his gene krupa collection g joe actually now owns the 13 I was talking about before with the flat bar mounts and Snare drums are the hardest thing even keep in mind that gene gave this stuff away um He didn't As his health started to fail. He obviously must have realized that He didn't need a lot of stuff Yeah, the bass drum that I authenticated that now lives in australia with andy He gave that to a bartender in vegas that wound up being an end table for the rest of its life Until the daughter contacted Bill nally and sent it back and now it lives in australia and it's rightful place as a bass drum instead of a table uh the the contribution that uh That michael stan made uh to zilgin Uh that bass drum is quite important Mostly for the front head more than anything else because it is indeed the original First version of the keep them flying head That was uh replaced by a cardboard Uh cardboard cover after the vet Um, that's all in the book. Um interesting So there there are lots of stuff and a lot of I have to say a lot of my motivation for this book was also Pointing out the things that were not Really changed. Yeah, which that has to come up a lot. I'm sure it does it comes up constantly Although I have to say less than it used to Um, I was the victim of that scam 40 years ago Good greatness I was well The stories in the book basically I was Ripped off with an alleged gene group of drum set and I was too stupid to realize But it didn't take more than a few months before I figured it out That still exists to this day. There are people out there who think they can Make a copy of something that gene owned And palm it off as belonging to gene And for me a great motivation for this book was to make sure that that doesn't happen anymore and I've there are a number that I left out of the book just Based on some good advice by my friend Chet Falls Arano um The original ideas I had about exposing all of these crooks Was probably a bit more negative than I should have been so okay. I took his advice, but I did include a few And that was mostly just sort of Letting people know that there are still people out there lying to them And it needs to stop because it's it's certainly not doing genes legacy any good And It's they thought it was so easy to do. Well This book is here to prove that it's not going to be that easy anymore. No not with not with brooks on the uh Watch not for everyone. I do think there's probably some people who genuinely think that like You know their grandpa gave them a drum dad and then and then they said this is gene krupa's and then Well, yeah, and that's that's part of the issue is there's never been Anyone to answer their question definitively Um, you know, is this really gene's drum? I mean, I've I've had that question posed to me numerous times And it's not easy to say well actually no um But it's preferable to Continuing a miss forever You know the multiple badge snare drum is a perfect example Um, that's a miss. It's just a lie And you know frankly needs to stop in my opinion So this at least gives everybody the opportunity to look at what they think they have and go Oh Okay, it's not really gene And you know you can do that in the privacy of their own living room with the Right get on hudson music.com. So you can go check your own uh Gene stuff. Wow. Yeah, that's um, I mean you're you're doing a good thing obviously just to keep keep it in check and stop It's it's so interesting that in every aspect. I think in every You know part of collectible stuff in the world. There's um There's people trying to fake something. Oh, yeah, you know and counterfeit, right? I'm also a world war two historian Have a sizable collection of clothing and equipment. You'd be amazed at the stuff that people pull them off as real You know, they'll get a decent copy of a leather a2 flight jacket and lay it out in the driveway and drive their car over it For a couple of days to make it look old. Yeah. Yeah, this might and they get away with it. That's the kicker You know, um, what's creepy is that? The market for german stuff And fakes is three times the size of anything else Wow. Um, yeah So but yeah, you're right. I mean there are people Jerry tells a story about a Collector of old music machines old record player And some of them are worth huge money and somebody was very proud of their acquisition until somebody said well It's actually not what you think um Kind of a devastating thing for a lot of people think they've got something really valuable Yeah, it's very uh, it's like Deflates you a little bit. Yeah Yeah, well, you know, we we are all very proud of ourselves based on what stuff we have Oh, yeah, I mean I've got a Toyota tundra pick up with 410,000 miles out in the driveway by golly And you know Yeah Toyotas man. I I have a Toyota Tacoma Um, kind of the the smaller brother. It's nowhere near what what 400 Man, they run forever, but they do they do their great cars. So the book is the book is there For anybody who's really interested in gene and his equipment And yeah, there are a couple of soapbox moments in there too, but you know, I can't resist Um, they're all it's also there so that they can contribute To the overall knowledge base about gene Um, hopefully someone would you know be able to answer a question of somebody else Based on what they've learned in the book Yeah, um now before we kind of wrap up here. What about his um, Billy Gladstone signature drum? I mean that's The black drum. I mean that's a beautiful drum. Was there any story behind that? Oh quite a lot there. I mean it was actually one of the earliest ones that Gladstone made um, and It's a prime example of a Gladstone snare as far as everything black lacquer finish um seven by 14 Uh, the only thing that really differentiated that drum from Gladstone's own gold one Was the color Um gene was intensely proud of that drum Oddly enough gene actually had two Billy Gladstone snare The second one I think was as jett mentioned I think the second one was Uh Possibly gene Just out of curiosity. It was black diamond pearl Uh, it's presently owned by uh Uh a friend and someone who helped immensely with the book Joe Vettrano um But the black one Gene absolutely revered In the right circumstances meaning it had gut snares Um, he was gene was apparently incensed When his black diamond pearl had come back from frank's in new york And somebody had changed it to wire snares That that to gene that was just sacrilege, you know, put wires and airs on a Gladstone. Come on um, the the black one I am very proud to say that I I spent the whole day with that drum and I played it Uh, yeah, it's it's actually a youtube clip of me playing on that snare Um, it was just amazing and again is one of the things that it's so much more fun to think about now Then I was really even quite aware at the time. What was, you know, here I was playing gene krupa's own black lacquer Billy Gladstone snare drum and desecrating it with some horrible drum solo And just just hoping it hoping that a gene spirit was out there. He was benign and being nice He would be happy. You know, he'd be he'd be nice. Um, I like to think so God that has to be a valuable snare. Oh my god. I mean that has to be worth a fortune It is it's worth a lot of money, but um It's it's well cared for And hopefully, you know, as someone wise mentioned, we're you know, we're only caretakers of this stuff You know, we don't last forever. It will move on to somebody else All the way I must confess. I'm gonna be fascinated to see what happens to Mike Carrado's collection Yeah, god, when he was on the show 650 ish snares. I mean Unbelievable. That's a lot of dusting Mike Dusting yeah more dusting than I'd care to do. I'll pass. Okay. Yeah, well, I mean, I've I've had Since I moved here. I've had many many many slingerland radio king drums There's still more than 30 sets back there Wow But I you know the whole focus shifted Um to just collecting things that gene would have had replicas copies whatever Yeah, and that in itself has become quite an adventure You know, that's it's even harder. It's more indeed. Absolutely. And I've had to fabricate a few like the double Tack headed tom that he was using in 36. I had to make one myself Um And I'm guessing that probably because that was the only one ever made It's like the people get all excited about 14 by 14 floor toms I don't think many people realize that gene had the very first ones And they were there was 12 lugs six per end And they were radio games And you know the earliest one who shows up as early as 42 maybe even 41 Man what gene got what gene wanted from slingerland. I'm sure I believe he did yes And at the same time he never took advantage of that No You know, he was always very classy about his relationship with with slingerland A classy guy through and through absolutely kind of the Wow Okay, well brooks. Let's um so again people can go to hudson music dot com and just search Gk the tools that built The gene krupa legend and I'm gonna link to it So if you're you know, wherever you're listening to this if it's on the website or wherever I can go to the description and I'll have a little a link to that there. Um And if you've enjoyed hearing uh brooks talk, which I'm sure you have head over to drumhistorypodcast.com and click the patreon link um because we're gonna do a little episode Where I think it's about I mean and I'm not going to keep in every episode pushing it But I think every week I'm going to do that, you know for as little as two bucks a month You'll get an extra, you know 10 15 minute episode with uh with the guest so On that note, um brooks, I just Can't thank you enough for coming on and I am so happy for you that you got this book out Must be a huge relief. Um, so Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Thank you Bart my pleasure and thank you for doing all that you do If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning