 I'm sure you feel it all right. Actually, I think he said, what did I say? Yeah, he said, oh, this is pretty good. Yeah, I actually have a baby! This is beautiful. I don't know. I feel like I'm going to touch you. You know, we don't want to sit. But while I'm standing, I don't know who else to be on the phone. I'd totally imagine. I'm going to kiss you. Ha ha ha ha. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to watch you stand here. It's absolutely weird. I don't know if it's a flip flop. I don't know if it's a flip flop. It's quite a new version. It's a new version, actually. Wow, we go from the new flip flop. I know, Ross. Different than the directors who come to you to work with you, might be used to, so I feel a need to look imparted. But, I also am really interested in... The books here are directors, first of all. Great, great, great. So, if you have done this kind of work, I'd love to hear about your experiences as well. And then how many people are producers that work with directors? That's great, because that's actually really tricky. What do you do in... If there was one thing I could gift, I could give you, it's a chance for a director to get to do it two different times. I know that's not always possible. So, for those of you that are producers, at the end of this, I have prepared a handy little guide to my directing tips, that I think if you give to any new director, it really works, it's a funny thing. So, we'll be talking about that too. About doing this kind of directing. Is that, tell these different audiences in your imagination as you work on the script, and as you work on things in rehearsal. It's really tricky if you haven't ever had an experience of doing that. So, the first thing I would say for anyone now, since your director is doing it, thinking of directing this way, is to go see somebody else do it. Go watch somebody else's tour. They're all around the country now, so it's not that hard to do. And watch it with as many different kinds of audiences as you can. The same play. Because, as you do it, year after year, you start to go, oh, a man's prison audiences are usually like this. Not always. There are always surprises all along the way. And, oh, there is usually this level of payoffs in the room, which is to come into your imagination. I will say for me, I watched every single 10,000 things performance for the first 10 years, including all the ones for the paying general public. Because we didn't do as many then, like now we do like four weekends for the general public, so that's a lot, but we would do like 10. And so I would watch every single one. And it was excruciating sometimes. Sometimes I would just be like this, but what's so great about it is that, so you're holding all these, trying to hold them all in your imagination while you're working on the script and on the play in rehearsal. But then you get a reality check. And that reality check is all the lights on and going to watch every single show and go, oh, my God, they still don't understand that. They still don't know who that is. They still don't understand what that relationship is. Or, oh, my God, they still don't understand that major plot point. And so as you watch it in all the pain that it can cause you, you're like, oh, my God, how can I solve that problem? And some of you start to come up with solutions. So this list of tips is a really hard one, I will say. But so hopefully they will be useful to you. But yeah, I would say even with guest directors at 10,000 Things, and we've been able to have some people back two or three times, it really takes two, for sure, to get it most usually through things to really go, oh, I see. I see what's important now. And I start to see how I can solve the problems of it. And just what I would like to know from you guys at first, so it's not just me talking, is for those of you that have tried this, what have you noticed that in terms of what it brings out to use a director that might be different than when you're directing on a pristine stage or a mainstream audience. Does anybody have any thoughts of what you've noticed is something different about it at all? Yeah, Brad. Yeah, it clarified my storytelling. Yeah. Yeah, that was the one thing I was like, oh, I've let these things go in service of this cool costume and this cool lighting change, right? I've let that go because I was focused on something else when I was working more traditionally. And I was like, oh, it's just one dude in the middle of the space. The story's definitely true. It is so true. And that is the really funny thing about this particular craft of directing, is that it's actually not sexy. Do you know what I mean? It's actually really kind of boring in a funny way. At least it seems like you can first help people. It's like, it's about storytelling. But actually, it's surprising how often that's neglected by directors. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Like, how often that basic stuff from learning graduate directing, school, your own pillow, I don't have to do that anymore. I'm going to come up with my concept of setting it at 1930s and on. That actually is really not that helpful. How it really is the basics of storytelling. But which I actually, they're actually really hard and especially they're really hard with Shakespeare. So I'm going to mostly talk about Shakespeare because if you can get Shakespeare's storytelling clear, because he is not an awesome storyteller. Let's just see that out front. Oh my God, Rebecca and I were talking about the first scenes of Shakespeare. Oh, it's so hard to get a story across. So if you can get the storytelling in Shakespeare clear, then you're going to be good. But you always have to really work at it and think about it. And that is actually for me kind of the joy of it. It's much more challenging than you would think. It really is a lot harder. It's not something going, oh, the story, yes, it's all clear. So great. Storytelling, hugely important. For me, it creates the Holy Triangle of Theatre, which is the character playwright, the actor, and the audience. The proximity of it is informed the work that I do on stages outside of small spaces. Because the power of the truth, when all three of those arrive at the same moment in time, sucks the air out of the room, makes it a powerful experience, not just for the audience, but also for the actors. And the other thing is, actors can't hide. Right. Exactly. There's no place to hide. There are no blackouts. That's very, very true. And if you have some 10,000 things, actors are way too good. So you guys can speak to that. But yeah, there isn't place to hide. Great. And you're so right, Kurt. I'm just going to... So this is really all about storytelling. And that is really the joy and the challenge of it all. And you're so right. The intimacy of it is really key. Because so many... So you can tell if people aren't really talking and listening to each other, you can tell. And the audience checks out. Like they know it's not real. And I think that people on big stages kind of get in bad habits of not really talking to each other and listening to each other. But if you don't do it in this space, it is glaring. And it really, really stands out and makes the audience check out. So that's really good. Yes, Rebecca. Oh, good boy, I'm sorry. And then you... Go ahead, Rebecca. I was just saying that I feel like this is like seeing what's worth of doing. This work has made me really notice what I can do as kind of like spots when I go to see you play, as well as Shakespeare play. You know, even if you're an experienced Shakespeare audience member, you're going to get to that moment where you're like, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, you can't have those. As we all should. Yeah, right? I was just saying that 90% of the time when I go see Shakespeare at regular trainers, I don't understand it. I don't understand what's going on. I don't understand what you just spent 10 minutes talking about. And what's so lovely about our audience is that they will leave, which is great for us. The house is on the line. Yes, and... I was just going to say that it's my kids who are now 9 and 11, but they're very first shape, and their song was one of yours. And then after that, I took time to see a show at Paul Shakespeare. I was working at the time, and my song was about seven. I said, how did you like this one? He goes, I didn't like the blah, blah, blah part. I was just always thinking about like, I don't want there to be a trough. Yeah, absolutely. If I'm bored of their board, I'd like to start there. My best tool is my board. If I'm bored watching the show, I'd guarantee that someone else is too. That's so true. And what I want as a director is actually for people to be leaning forward in their seats all the time, like every minute, that doesn't ever happen, but that's always what I'm kind of striving for, is for people to be like, this the whole time, and that is not an easy thing to do, I think, for sure. Great. And yes, you... I'd like to say, a reminder, I try to bring this to the other work as well, that the audience doesn't experience any of it as interpretation, maybe not all of the truth of the play. Absolutely. So learning any interpretation on it is part of what makes the story long and confusing. Yeah. Because you're only experiencing that as the truth. I think that's absolutely right. Very good. But first of all, a reminder for all, for our audiences at not every place a brand new play. It's the first time they've ever seen it. They don't... Shakespeare is just a play, which is just a scene as Kira Almasky. It's all a new play. And yes, originality in this kind of work, actually, it doesn't come from a concept. It really, really doesn't. It comes from the necessity of making the story. These are the three things I always wanted to talk about. So it has to, I'm asking. And they're a huge part of the storytelling. The second thing is urgency. And that is really, really crucial for making... If people don't have to work to understand the story, then they can enter the urgency of the story. This is all to be cared for them. If this is not to be cared for them, they're not. They're involved. Yeah. And then the third thing is widening this. And that is something that the performance conditions and the honesty of our audience give us as a gift, which is the part that often is missing in regular theater. So yes, those three things are, like, kind of always my attention. Good. Other things you've noticed in doing this kind of work? Yeah, David. So they get supercharged from being an actor and we're shaking, we're shaking a bit. The more we're able to find those direct address audience action moments, the more they can lighten the career. It's so great. Yeah, absolutely. The second thing is it fast-forwarded for me trusting actors and letting go of the light once it opens. Yes. Because just doing it every single time to take this play out in an amazing environment is going to be so wild and different and just embracing that and going, it's great. It's going to be okay. Absolutely. Trusting your actors is really important. And in addition to, I mean, some place, some parts of some place really require a role, right? I mean, it is just people talking or whatever. But as many times as you can find for an actor to engage with an audience member, just burst it open. We have many, you know, I tend to love to work with people who are actors who are very physical, actors who are very generous, and actors who are clowns. And so they love to ad-lib. And so ad-libbing is fun. Even in Shakespeare, I feel like Shakespeare's not your favorite, right? I feel like they didn't. Sometimes I have to bring them in a little bit. That one's not working though. But I mean, to make any possibilities for actors too, to just have a little moment with the audience. Karen Wies-Thompson is awesome at that. Just over there. There she is. There I am. Great. So, Klua, other things. Right, Daniel? Yes. The type of the language, nuance, because I always work that fine. I think just allowing the role of the actors to play the clear intention with passion and clarity. Absolutely. And I think that has to do with urges. So, what you want to do as a director for this kind of work, is always choose the highest stakes. Because that is the place where our audiences live their lives. They know what it's like to live at those high-stakes extremes of human existence. You know, when you have consulate betrayal and revenge in your daily life, in prison, that's where they live their lives. And so, you know, I think a skater artist, when actors are working with 10,000 things for the first time, I notice that they tend to make kind of work, nuance, choices, halfway. And no. And why? Right? Life is never logical for a skater. So, I think what you always want to do is find the highest stakes. It goes absolutely well. One of the things I've learned is really encouraging the actors to use the full instrument. Yeah. By language, oftentimes not. It's fun to use that time when I see theaters. But in this kind of work, it really helps to have that visual expression of what it is you're trying to say or fighting for. Amen. I mean, we have so little to work with, right, in these conditions. We don't have fancy set pieces. We don't have lighting. But you do have your bodies. And, you know, when I go see Shakespeare at regular theaters, it's amazing to me how much of the acting is done from a place of stillness, right? Like, I'm always dropping these words. But I'm just standing still and already. But with 10,000 things, if you've got your body, that is one of the hugest things you can use in making the story clear. So, it's very, very physical, for sure. And, yeah. Yeah, that's great. Very physical. Yes. Something that came about this tour that we did and I've never discovered before was intimacy. And talking to the men at the prison, because we have an acting program that goes on there as well. And they were just shocked at how intimate you could be. And that touching each other was just for them, it blew them away. To see two actors doing that, to touch each other, they just meant so much to them in a place where you can't touch each other. And they were like, oh, wow, we can do that? We can actually touch each other? And it was just like, relicatory for them. That's right. And also, by the same time, it doesn't take too much. Like, if there's a big love scene, if you just have two people full of hands, that can be enough in a funny way. Or even one kiss and that is just as close as ever. So there's no need for, like, nudity or sex. Like, really. But just, you can do so much and so little. But you can do the same thing. Yeah, that's great. Yes. Yeah. So I'm learning more about the life of many chairs. Yeah. Not only because of the actors, but, you know, the part in the corner of the people that are giving out, I'd love to hear more about what you learned. Yeah. Well, you know, in the early days, I used to try to, like, sort of mentalize it like we have. And that's just, I think that it's the whole room. You're really playing to the whole room. You know, like, when we go to a homeless shelter, the door is the basement. There's always this group of guys sitting in the back doing pink coffee and they're clearly, like, not having it under chalk. And then there's always a moment when the actors are playing to the whole room where they turn and they start engaging. So I think it's great to use the whole space. And when you want to be careful, like when people make a cross, like, not doing a quiet dramatic moment. Actors have to sort of be aware. But what's so great is that everybody's participating in the storytelling actually all the time. Even if you're not on stage, I remember in the early days we would go to Dorothy Day and it was so chaotic that just to have, like, five of the actors who weren't on stage stand around the room and focus in on the stage. We really, really helped the audience of us, too. So you want to use everything you can to help make that focus. It's good. So yeah, it's a whole room play where people run around the outside of the chairs. I mean, it's part of the joy of this is that the theater can kind of immerse you in the story as well. Yes. Let me do that, Madeline. And then we're at Madeline. Sorry. To the point of putting this collaborator, one of the things that I found interesting was, A, like, actually talking to the audience before and after about what they actually were doing was really helpful. Yeah. But then, also, it created a space that was really interesting in terms of trusting the actors about, like, ways of making offerings based on, like, trusting their intuition. Be like, you know, if the audience happens to be really with you right now at this exact moment in the play, like, you might try one of these things, but knowing that they'll be able to figure out, like, whether or not, like, that is a safe relationship for them to, like, participate in that way at that moment. Because some of the most interesting things I found happen happened with my, like, hypothetically, with the audience. Like, if you've created this relationship, then you can do this. And those are the things that might happen in one show might not happen in another. So, like, the actors have established, like, what their boundaries were with different audiences. Yeah. That could be good. Yeah. I actually haven't... I mean, I don't know if I've actually quite set it up that way, but... Certainly not. That happened with my actors. And that's a wonderful discovery. And then they can see if it works in other performances, or it might not. Particularly with audience participation. Yeah. Absolutely. You've got to be interested in using those. Yes. And I ask that question. Yes. Of course. Please. This may be not the right time to talk about this. I'm really interested in... Sometimes I feel like the way we talk about this process is we as artists go into the sacred rehearsal room and we create the thing. And then we bring the thing into the people and we're always surprised by what it is. And I'm wondering if anybody has tried what happens at this rehearsal room is not a sacred and isolated place and in fact there's a partnership that begins during the rehearsal process. Has anyone tried to bring people in earlier in the process? Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't think the rehearsal room is a sacred space at all. And what makes it... What I wanted to say this morning that I forgot is that even though this is a professional model it's not a top-down thing. It's not like we're creating this and now we are bringing it to you. First of all even when you don't we always try to have people come to watch rehearsals whenever possible and certainly our final rehearsal dress rehearsal we try to bring in groups who want to come and watch it and that's a great way to get started. But what it is is professional artists with their imaginations engaged with audiences that aren't usually part of their process. So there's that. Many... after you've done it a few times like that imaginative work is actually based on experience. So that is really different and allows you to make all kinds of choices. And but then the thing we have to keep in mind is that there's always room for surprise and that always happens because but it happens with any time you know you have a conversation with someone that I'm assuming that Kevin's thinking this but he actually might not be thinking that at all and I'm like, oh, okay, I've got to read jokes. So that's just part of it but it's it's not a sacred space at all and in fact we usually if you're like not on stage in the rehearsal if you sit in the circle of chairs and maybe shout stuff out as it comes to you I mean we just try to make it as lively and un-secret as space as possible and that helps. Yes. It could be rehearsing a church I think the rehearsing space that is so important like, you know we arrive and we all arrive we follow some equity rules because, you know we've got our reactors in the room but immediately like we're inside of our church and sometimes we're in the basement and what is it they're like they're like rec room they're like a community room and we move the tables and we have to reset the tables and I also think something that I found when I first worked with Seven Thousand Things was like, you know taking care of our own costumes like this is already there's a sense that the work that we're doing is different from any other space that we might work in just one city or someplace else and I think that really helps in the sort of creativity and the sort of imaginative sort of aspect of work that you bring because Michelle's so insistent that I'm enough I thought I was an actor in the room Michelle's like, no come up with something else and you're like you have to sort of let yourself go of those previous spaces to sort of really invest inside the room but it's helpful that it's like in a church and the tables are up and like somebody made coffee and like maybe we bring snacks I think that that the way the room is ran as a director and the way Michelle and other Ten Thousand Things directors hold space becomes really interesting to me that they toss out that hierarchy and if they're sitting in the circle we never have tables we're supposed to do tables and we're never like we never do table we're like sitting in a thing and even that you're like what we're sitting in a large bag I mean something okay cool we're doing this way that's a part of what you think of you know Julie Wynch is the bird for an audience in the maximum security for some people who may have killed someone is that you suddenly become very humble and you right away what this is it's it's storytelling with the it's creating work but the audience is at the top of the pyramid right like so often in our rehearsal process and not that it's bad but it's like we're realizing the playwright's vision or we're realizing the director's vision but with what we do who's at the top is the audience and we're always trying to figure out how we can engage them to to these people who know chances are they know much more about the world of the play than we do so it's always done in great humility and yeah in 10,000 things world because this started with me loading up my hatchback and then you know five years later I am and I know it's different with different equity contracts and union rules and stuff but our after is sign on for actually helping to unload the van and load everything and the reason we do that is actually because it's so important when you're entering someone else's space that they sense that you are not famous actors coming in to do a show thing but they see people like lugging these heavy set pieces or whatever down the hall they see people working and it kind of lets everybody in that room know you're for real right you're not fancy you're not pretentious and it might not work with other theaters and you know I know there are all kinds of different equity contracts but we try to keep it as real and grounded if possible and like this is just people doing their job working trying to tell stories yes I'd like to hear more about your table process what do you do around that world building yeah yeah so it's basically you know the first year rehearsals we just ask a lot of questions and here is a really important thing for this panel is that ignorance is for touch and that's why all these questions are great we love them but what we try to do what I always try to do is questions we can about the story but because that doesn't happen people just kind of assume this and that we've done the initial digging work and I'm watching chunks of things as a director my main focus is I'm some guy coming in off the street don't know anything about this sit down what's going on that's kind of and so we welcome ignorance we it's a a great place to be and the Shakespeare that's so hard for people to do because people like to be going oh well yes I know that knowing in our audience knows anything about it and so we have to approach it in that way too I'm probably a bad director in some ways in that I I started out doing lots of historical research the first time I did Shakespeare because I'd never directed Shakespeare before and I was terrified but I actually have just let go of a lot of it because it actually ultimately doesn't matter in a funny way it doesn't sometimes it can inform a choice you make but you've always got to make the liveliest choice that's most alive in people's minds today so sometimes it provides an option but it's not the right answer necessarily at all so that's ignorance is your friend and what you need to do as a director once things get going is just keep checking in with I don't know what that is I don't know what they just that's just a really, really important part of the work can I add something? yes because so on this topic of ignorance is your touchstone I feel like I should be like you're just awesome I should be like on the cover maybe this is what you're just goes so you mean this guy this scene this guy saying fuck you that's not what I mean at all she's so great and just bringing it down to this very early level because you were asking about like that now table reading stuff and I've never really done you can read it of course and all that crap but there was never a place for me there was never a place for me in any of these plays because I don't know I'm a bigger girl I mean I'm just gonna play the nurse all the time I don't know what that's for I don't know what that's bullshit so when she asked me to be in Henry IV which is all you know production you know that was my first first time so I'm showing up and I'm like and I've got Karen there luckily who can just riddle off whatever Shakespeare's about and be like lies stuff on the story all this kind of luxury and the wonderfulness of the way that that you directed me you allowed me to be what I would say I was like I don't know I'm not one of those people that's like oh in this play this is a history play and this is a whatever I'm not that person but I love being able to play a man and I love being able to be a part of this thing that all my other actor friends were doing you know this Shakespeare thing and so I just sat there and did that basically I was like so wait so this guy he just owns this land or whatever or some kind of kingdom and then he's got this kid he's basically a fucking idiot and he just wants to like dance around in a pub all day but he's really supposed to be in prison somewhere and then there's this other you know little asshole so he wants that he's like should be the prince because he's got all the princey stuff going on and now these guys want to be like all mad at each other and then like and then there's all staff in the pool so that's that's sad that's sad because you want people like these actors maybe they haven't done Shakespeare before but bringing that that to really really better okay I'm going to introduce one rule of clarity and this is very important just because someone says something doesn't mean anybody hurt as a director how to make the audience hear it if it's a really important story telling you have to do you have certain tools at your disposal to make that happen so and this is something like when I some directors are going to look at this stuff and go offensive to me that you're bringing it up but actually 90% of the time it really doesn't happen and it's not condescending and I will tell you all of our painting audiences many of whom have seen lots of Shakespeare are always hateful for this stuff like oh it may seem like it's condescending but I promise you it's not because we all want the story to be clear so we don't have to think about that and go into the other things so the first so we this is the easiest one and the oddest one but in Shakespeare and in those first scenes we were talking about it's full of people talking about people who are offstage we don't know who they are we've never seen them we don't know what what they are and so we have developed something called the Ten Thousand Things Pointing School of Acting but it helps so much and first actors get really uptight about it and it's condescending it's really not it's just that if you're talking about a character who's not on stage and let's say that character has just exited that way a scene ago you just point at it and just that little gesture makes everyone go oh that guy like it sounds dumb but it really really works another part of that is to be really consistent in the places where they are offstage so if I'm in the palace courtroom the forest is always that way the village is always that way the peasants' hut is always that way and then all you have to do when you're talking about it is just that little gesture and suddenly everyone goes oh okay again it's such a small thing but we have so few tools at our disposal that they really really matter and they really really help so that's the one thing in this book here what has been said is it has to do with that thing and this is really boring and very directing school 101 but it's it's about the actions that are under the words and what I try to do in the first part of rehearsal as a director is I don't even really listen to the words I just want to be able to feel in my gut in this visceral way what people are doing for each other if I can understand just viscerally that that guy is trying to swelch that other band if I feel it in my gut then the words become clear oddly and it's and so I know it sounds very basic and yes but it has to be this visceral thing that you can feel in your gut to make that really really clear with the actors when you're working on them that's one of the first things that I always do oh yeah up here another thing is if there are a lot of pronouns in somebody's speech just put in names that's where we don't get precious about Shakespeare it just takes a little tweak to change him to King Mere or Kim to my father just do that we don't get precious about that kind of thing and so it's that thing of it happens so often it surprises me with actors even as we get towards the end of the rehearsal process how an actor will do an action to someone they'll go and so and then they'll just turn away and they don't stop to see if it's actually worked if that thing that they were trying to do to someone else has actually happened and again I know it sounds so basic but it's surprising how often actors just turn away and don't check in and that actor checking in to see if it worked it's huge more information about what's going on in the story and again acting one-on-one but it really doesn't matter this is on my high horse that I get out of American acting is full of un-filled gestures and what I call the great American upper thigh slap which is a gesture that's sort of like it's the least clear gesture I think anyone can it's also full of why don't you just give me what I want to gesture and so like that was the first thing we like try to get all of that out because it's the same thing that's turning away right it's not fulfilling whatever just really checking in to see if it happened and then that really active listening it's so funny how in Shakespeare someone's got a long speech and someone else is standing on stage and then they respond but if the person who's there on stage listening can be really active and like trying to interrupt or thinking of ways that they might and the person goes on talking but it's like that active trying to interrupt trying to make your voices heard and it's surprising how often that doesn't happen and it seems so basic but it just brings a long Shakespeare soliloquy to life or a long speech is that a very active way? Yes, do you? Just on that note actually I was sort of amazed the text goes like this but I don't really recognize it and this was the first time ever I was getting listening notes Make sure you really are listening to that Watching somebody listen is half the information we get from scenes so you really want to make sure that the listener is really doing it that's absolutely true And because in this setup you can really see people listening and actually hear the practices Yes and then in the listening was that actually received or was that actually rejected? So much about the story So yes, would you say something Elise or would you just say no? Yes I had thought about about talking about keeping the rehearsal room open and even though the actors work in instead of taking out their costumes I want to go back to what you said earlier this morning because you don't want it to become a second tier thing and we still need to get to work and we still need to do the best show with all this clarity but it's not always an educational opportunity for other people it's like let's do this show I don't know if that's necessarily a mantra that you have but I just feel like it's not always about they'll get to see the show once it's done Who gets to see the show? Well you were saying about inviting people to do the rehearsal How should we get less surprises? No, I probably wasn't very clear about what I was actually asking I was more interested in whether anyone's tried to create a rehearsal process that is in itself a dialogue so that not simply to avoid surprises but so as to incorporate some of what that community is going to get later on we haven't done that I don't know if it's worth doing it or not but we also actually really value the artist's imagination we give it a lot of credit do you know what I mean? so I don't think it requires constant feedback from a community during their rehearsal process we feel like you know the actors are really good and if their imaginations are engaged they'll come up with a lot of the right choices for all of them so we do tend to maybe that's what you're saying we also trust the artist to once they've been through this process a couple of times if that makes sense but it's not just that you couldn't try it's really interesting to know Well I've a version it's not quite what I think you're alluding to but our version of bringing opening up that rehearsal process has actually been to it was most successful in parent leagues we did parent leagues and we were about to go into some juvenile facilities and there was something tickling at the back of my brain and I was like I really think we should talk to some people and the practice of bringing in leaders from communities we do that with some consistency to invite our sort of really trusted partners to come into a rehearsal process to either get a sneak peek and just to open the doors a little bit but often and most importantly to say what do you see that I'm not seeing and sure enough in parent leagues she was like there's a man alone in a room with a young woman with an expectation of sex for money and I was like what are you going to do when you go into the spaces that's kind of more what I was talking about that's sort of like really one of those principles I think one of the principles I feel like that has to be operating in this work is the sort of like yes we might be the experts of playmaking we are far from the experts of the sort of like lived experiences and the needs and the communities that we're serving and working with and so to that it's been really like strategic but the practice of constantly questioning our moment assumptions about what that story is saying and how we tell the story and the producing of the story feels like it feels like essential to building whatever production we're teaching what adjustment did you make as a result of that what adjustment did you make oh you guys it was one of those excruciating moments because I caught it too late I was very happy to have done it but I caught it way too late we shouldn't have done we shouldn't have done her right exactly Herod believes I we shouldn't surprise Shakespeare we shouldn't have done her even though it was a beautiful production and I knew that was coming I knew because I've done it for so long I was like I knew but we tried to play it in a way and it didn't work it didn't work at the VA it didn't work at the VA and it had been outreached beforehand Well can I just let me finish with a sort of mental soup So I made that I made that sort of like I sat down with our director at The Brown Melrose who said money is in and had a really hard conversation about like hey my bad like we've just gotten this information and very naturally he was like but what we gotta tell the story and so what we ended up doing what we ended up doing was not an ideal fix, but frankly, when we went into the most vulnerable populations, the juvenile facilities and the homeless shelters, there was a moment in the playwork right where we got up to that place, something that gets Marita seen, where I just stepped out on stage and I was like, we're going to fast forward now. We're going to like, here's what's up, what has happened above and above. So we ended up with two versions of the play. It was the best I could come up with in the moment because we were in, we were in done doing the play. And not for nothing, it ended up being a blessing because 90 minutes of Shakespeare is often just, I can't even handle 90 minutes, my attention spans sometimes, let alone juveniles, but I feel like what I appreciated about that excruciating experience was that I do not take those things for granted anymore. And I'm much more careful about the stories I choose to tell and what director is at the helm, often it's a woman, it's a director of color, it's people with cultural competencies who can also help to allow these those things, but it was not, it was not cute. That's an awesome story, Stephanie, and thank you for that. When we appeared, please, I was very aware of that and I just, I love sometimes to try to wrestle with the misogyny and I got, I can handle the misogyny of that level. So we actually had here a rewrite ending because it is so misogynistic and so people. So we had Karen, she, the goddess Diana, was actually there the whole time watching these horrible things that the men were doing to the women and so at the end, we expanded her speech to be this one of reckoning with, for, for Pericles, before he got the happy ending, he had to really understand the ways that he had endured and was treated all the way with his life. But that, but yeah, those things come from, oh my god, I know what's going to happen if we do this story again. All of that. Great. Let's see. No, that's okay. Let me, let me give, and then I'm going to go through because I want to get through some of these and we'll keep bringing in your ideas. Yes. One thing that this kind of story brings up, too, is that, is that Shakespeare is super problematic. It's not just that like Shakespeare is like perfect and the best thing to do in the space and like always good and every single Shakespeare play is good and has that, that's also a frame we've got to get rid of, especially if we want to actually adhere to this mantra of like audiences being in the top because we're actually retrofitting, literally retrofitting plays to a new audience, you know, and not necessarily doing things like having them held by directors of color who might look at them in different ways and not doing things like rewriting them all the time. And so I think that just because it's Shakespeare and I love Shakespeare and it doesn't mean that it's good. Yeah, absolutely. And I think wrestling as a came out director that directs classic plays, wrestling with misogyny is a huge part of what I do and I do it all the time. And there is a joy, I will say, actually in finding ways, without rewriting, was perfectly the only time you wrote it because I was just like this is, but you need to find ways to make it not misogynistic in the way you cast it in the things that you choose to emphasize in the parts you choose to cut. I mean, I'm not, I'm like you, I can do two hours of Shakespeare actually, but I think there's a nice intermission, but I mean, but for me also in this like not even kind of sending, for me actually, I always wanted to give our audiences the whole story, like every story point, I was kind of like, I'm going to keep all the story points in, but I'm just going to have characters use one metaphor beautifully instead of six of them in a row, right? Like, sometimes you could just hear it better because just you pick the best one, and that's the one they say, and everyone gets it, and then you don't use six more and you go on. But yeah, and yeah, I mean, it's going to be excruciating, there will be times, but you're always learning when you do and learning to adjust. Can I just love one thing? Yes, of course, because Paris is all the time in prisons with inmates, he's awesome. Yeah, so it's just one little story, it's a Paris police story, doing it with prisoners, and all three, the king, the incestuous relationship between the king and the daughter and Paris police, all three guys were sex offenders. Wow. So we can use plays that have really difficult moments to deal with, and they chose those roles, we don't cast them. They knew going in, they were going to do that scene, they knew going in, they'd have to dig into their sex offenses, and sex offenders come and see the show, and they see that moment. So that's just one moment in one play that happens. No, it's really true, and we have to, you know, the way we deal with extremely painful experiences that are mirrored in the play is we do set it in another time, another place. So there's a lot of distance, we don't do plays about contemporary urban poverty, because there's no distance there, but in another time, another place, you get a chance to kind of look at it and deal with it, and trust our audiences, if they can handle it, do you know what I mean? If you give them that imagine of distance, they're actually often grateful to have a very challenging thing brought up in their life, but given a way to look at it in a new way. And just one last thing, all three of those guys working on that scene came to terms with their offenses, and so transformation happened, and it wouldn't have happened in the same way, right? Because they have to immerse themselves in and then play, and then they use the aesthetic distance to get at them, and all three of those guys are absolutely transformed from where they were before they did that play to where they are now today. And I think that's the special power of the kind of work you do, Kurt, which is when you do the play with the population, that is a whole another thing, and the kind of transformation that happens, I think actually often is more profound. I've always been really clear, it's just a play, coming in to do play, it doesn't change your life any more than any play ever does. Like, do you know what I was just saying to me? Well, how many people do you get off jobs, or what's the masochism rate? It's just a play, and you start asking the government to demonstrate how their audiences like people stop beating their lives. It's important for people to see a play, a story of sense to connect with their humanity, and that other people think that they're human beings too. It's just as transformative for us, and I tend to be a big argue of the selfishness of this kind of work, in the sense that it just gives us as theater artists so much more to think about and talk about. Now, going through this really quickly, the other really great simple trick for making sure that someone fears something, as Steve said, and again, it's very basic, but is to physicalize the actions, and these are things that you guys who are producers, always working directors, just get practiced in watching for this. So seriously, if someone is attacking someone, have them walk towards the person. If someone is trying to escape, have the other person like, walk them. It seems dumb, but that bit of information just makes the whole thing clear for people. So, not standing still, but making the physical actions mirror the emotional actions going on underneath the words is really a great trick, and I do it all the time, but it seems really basic, but it really, really helps. So here's another, and this is a huge part of a director's work, in making people hear stuff. You have to create some big space. There's lots of places you could be looking. So one of my main jobs is to make sure that people's heads are turned where I want them to be turned, so that they hear the important thing in the story. There's lots of ways you can create focus, and for sure, if you come to Peter Vitale's live sound session, because you can make, just with a ding, you make people turn their heads to the person who just entered. You can create a spotlight with a sound that makes everybody pay attention to this character at that moment. You can create washers that are similar, you know, like we were talking about last Menagerie, just a wash of sound that does the same thing as changing the lighting effects in that magical moment. So you can really use sound to punctuate those key moments that you want people to pay attention to. That's super, super important. And another way, oh, I want to write to one other thing, this is so important in this very physical work that we do, is to energize thinking. So often in a play, especially Shakespeare, people are coming up with an idea, and so if you, instead of standing still and going, here's a good idea, I just, the energy that you use when you're trying to come up with an idea that makes people move around, sudden stops, sudden starts when someone's been standing still, sudden motions, sudden gestures, we don't have very much, but you can really use those things to make people pay attention. So we've got Sam, we've got some movements. Let's see, what other did I want to say about creating focus? Oh, sometimes I get so desperate to get the audience to pay attention to something, and I haven't been able to figure it out. I just use the other actor's eyeballs. Everybody looks at that person. That will help. I mean, you just get desperate trying to think of ways to do it. And then finally, of course, and again, I don't view this as condescending. I don't do this until the very end. But if I try all these things, and I'm sitting in the audience, and I still don't understand what's going on, which you just hit up that word, just that word, if you stress that word, everything will become clear. And again, I don't think any of our actors feel that that's condescending or giving them a line reading. I don't tell them what emotion to say. We just, we need to hear that word because they know that that, hitting up that word, will make the audience less restless. So it, you know, it just, it's all in the spirit of making the spirit clear, storytelling having happened, if that makes sense. So, and now other things. Yes. In focus, how do you use center versus the barge? Oh, yes, the next thing. But there are just some basic things that people gotta get. So, great question. Thank you so much for asking that. So, the thing about this kind of space is that it compels us to move. You can't, there are only four places on this stage where you can stand still for more than five seconds and talk to me. And those are the four corners. You'll notice that's why I'm here. That's it. You really can't, and you really, you know, you don't want to have someone stand still in this place for as long as I've been standing still here today. I just did that because the board is here. If you, if you have someone in the center, then they've got to find a way to make them turn or else if they're, someone is talking to them in the center, they've got to find ways to open up and share. That just has to happen. This is a theater of movement. So, it is not a kind of theater where you can have chairs and sofas and people sitting and talking. I would argue that if you have to have someone sit, don't have them sit for more than 10 seconds. I'm serious. Because first of all, the sight lines in this space, right, there are no risers. So, only the front row can see anything on the floor. It really is acting from the chest up oddly, because that's mostly all that people can see. So, you can't have action on the floor. If people are going to die, we have to see them die up here before they know. We have to give them a hint of what's happening. Like when I did Midsummer Night Stream, instead of having people fall asleep on the floor, I just had them fall asleep standing up so that everyone can see. Because second and third rows are really going to get lost. And it's kind of great to have it. The thing that's cool and true about standing is opposed to sitting. Because if someone sits, then suddenly there's so much less chance that they're going to spring into action. But if you're standing, then your body is always, it's always possible that you might start to act. So, right away that brings an energy into the space. But just, if it's a playing people sitting and talking, don't do it. Just don't do it. It's not George Bernard Shaw. It's not playwright for this kind of game. We have production going on right now for Winter Sale that moves on like cubes pretty well. We're like people that have platforms that people can stand on and things like that to create some levels that people in the back can see. Just one thing that I wanted to throw in there. But also there's something to be said for making sure that actors know that sometimes they need to back to their heads, or you've seen a lot, which I think sometimes is very powerful because you can get back at that point. You can get a lot from body language and all of that in a way that doesn't necessarily have to be like a commascent in a line. Subtle movements sometimes are fun. People can tell a lot. Yeah, after full body is engaged. Sure. Yes, David. This is a huge practical piece of business you get needed. If you already have something people sit on, make sure that they're higher than your own chairs. Higher than your own chairs? Absolutely. Didn't do that our first year, this year again. They were just suddenly stuck. They helped me a lot. Yeah, yeah. And I would say in general, if you're having someone sit for a while, you're not doing your job. They're not doing active listening. They're not being active in what they do. And it's just more fun for all of us to watch. I was going to say, just to add to that, directing from the front row, I know a lot of times, you know, space concerns and where the front row and what you're directing, it really behooves you to be in that third row and have a couple of people in front of you when you're directing this show. Because we made a mistake this year. And it was just like, it was unbearable, it certainly was unbearable. Whenever I'm directing a sort of new, I have any given moment directors who are on the bench, you know, sort of like waiting to put them in at any given time. And when we invite them to come out and see the show, it's just a prerequisite. Don't turn that direction. Yay! As you've seen it. Yes. About a year and a half ago, I was like, I've been giving them the sort of like good scenes on the aisle. So now I'm making sure that they're sitting in the fourth row in the middle. And then trust that the directors that I'm hiring are going to solve for them in whatever way. So I'm not prescriptive in the way that they need to do it, but they will solve for the challenges of this. That's right. And whenever you give a director notes, you're just going to say, I didn't understand this, and let them solve it however they want. You don't want to tell them how to do that. But just that, I think directors are actually really grateful for someone that goes in. Just, your only comments are, well, I didn't understand a lot, but I didn't understand what you said. And then it's great. You let me know. Yes, we've got you. Thinking about blocking in this way, in the same way that we're thinking about like, you want the play and the production to have something for everybody, but it's not the same for everybody. Yes. Like that's just kind of a beauty in the realm. Totally. And that's what I think about the back rows versus the front row. The front row is going to have a different experience. They are. They want to have a nothing experience for the back row. Yeah. And similarly, like, and you and I have a slight dispute about how long it's okay to be, why did two people talk to each other? Well, sitting. No, I'm not sitting. I agree with you about sitting. But I feel like the two person things are kind of really tricky in terms of, like, how often can you turn it so if you're not always... That's what I feel like. As long as it's not like that one half of the audience never sees the face. Right. It's just that. Yeah. You can talk to each other for a while if you can see one person's face. Exactly. As long as you're getting back the story, you have to fill in the rest for sure. Yes, Daniel. I just have a question. Yes. Have you explored other configurations and played around with an idea for the next week? We did end game on the very booklet and directed it for us, just the same way, three quarters. Because you can't do those trash games. So it's quite, of course, it's fine. These are all rules meant to be broken. There might be a play that just feels like it absolutely has to be a stadium, but I would challenge you to think about how you can open it up. Because it does bring that great thing of, you know, even if you can't tell what this person is doing because his back is turned to you, you can look across the audience and you can see how they're responding to it and that gives you information about it as well. Yes, Brad. If you ever want a special kind of nightmare, do a show with only one actor. That's the first time I've heard of this happening. So this is great. Yeah, that's a big load for a person to hear it. Yeah, for 100 minutes. Yeah, so you really have to figure out that the actor, Tom, really had to clarify his body, right? Like, who am I now? How do I show them? How do I find a piece of them that always comes back so you know exactly who it is? Instantly. Yeah, he played lots of characters. Yeah, he played 20. And then how do you find ways to move about the space? I wonder who he is. Yeah, he likes me now. That's a hard technique. But yeah, that is the biggest challenge in clarifying the storytelling. How do you, how does he figure that out? How does he clarify it? Great. One more big tip in storytelling clarity is the transitions. Use the transitions to tell your story. We don't have blackouts. But if you have the actors move whatever set pieces you want, and you can, and characters do it, you can get whole little parts of the story told in those transitions. That's keeping, because people don't know they're not supposed to look like others. So use them to keep the storytelling going. I see that's not happening as much and that's a really, really valuable thing to use. And there's something else somebody said yesterday. Why just in use clarity, your use of props and set pieces and telling of the story I think is also really the best example I think is Henry Ford when you had the map. And the color code, which matched the costumes of what country each one was from. There was a very well educated actor in the front row and first five minutes and went, well, I am insulted and condescended to. Ten minutes into the show he was, thank God that's there. And you do that a lot. I don't know. One of 10,000 things set design is, yeah, but do you want to carry it? Yeah. Because our actors actually have to carry it all. We don't have it for you. And so if you come to the set design thing this afternoon too, we love aluminum. We have a guy who makes aluminum. It's really easy to carry it. But really if a director is a director that's about, this is not going to work for them. The directors you want are people who get great joy and are taking a little tiny thing and making a whole beautiful moment out of it. So those are the people who love that kind of work as opposed to, and not to say if there's anything wrong with having amazing sense and light. If you have access to those resources. But someone who also loves the challenge of telling me very little and making one piece work in two or three or four different ways is really great. I said, someone else have their hand up? I'm sorry. It's light. I have a light in my face. It's very strange for me. Good job. Yes. I'm just going to mention about the experience for actors and going into different spaces and feeling like you're facing a different way. Even though you've been rehearsing in the round. Oh yes. I don't know if you can put that in your rehearsal space in the church because it's not, doesn't feel like they rehearsed. Like I feel like, and also your actors have done this lots and lots. It's pretty neat for people to keep track of. But when we did it at Couchshakes, we know we were working in the rehearsal room and many of those actors are used to working for the main stage. And this is where the stage manager says, and that's where the audience, the main stages, I could see that they were getting locked in. And so when I was directing Tempus, somewhere in week three, it came in and I turned it all 90 degrees and I put the stage manager to it. I thought they were going to walk out. Yes. It was so serious. And the rehearsal was so terrible that day. But it was so important. Because then when we got into the tour, it really made them think I have to organize my head off of where the musician is. And not where the clock is or where the window is or whatever. And so that was just like, especially working, if you're working with actors who aren't super experienced with this model, that was, it was just really awful. And even actors who are very experienced. It's just so lovely. It's why you have to be getting through it onto the next thing. There always has to be an urgency where you don't have a lot of time to stop and sob, but you then have to get onto the next thing. So that is really, really key. You'll notice as you watch, if you let an actor wallow, then you'll notice people can't even go. That's not really that interesting. How do you utilize costumes in relation to clarity of stories? Yeah, that's great. Well, color coding is helpful. It's helpful for like family groupings, you know, nation groupings, things like that. In the second costume session, you'll get to hear more about, tended to work a lot in the early years with fiber artists. Because there isn't lighting. So that in the audience gets to see things up close. So it's really a chance to work with texture and color in a way that you don't often get to. Is it so intimate? And really, you know, most of the time they have eight actors and each actor is playing two or three or four different characters. So it's also really about, you know, how can you make the fastest costume change? You know, a lot of times we have sort of base costumes with things layered over, things thrown on, things thrown off. It's really a lot about that. But more than the set, costumes are really the way to make the world. I like to limit the color palette in a funny way because it just helps to make, like, you know, what you might want, like, themes and themes and purpose. And it just helps to focus and create the world much more than the set does, which the set mostly just gives you stresses to stand on or demand yet. I just want to just, because every single community is different, in our community in New York City, there are actual contraband colors for our secure facilities. So understanding what those limitations are, particularly if you're going into secure facilities and being able to sit with your design. I do this as a producer with the director and the design team to be like, here is the list of the litany of restrictions and parameters that are given to us by our communities. And now let's figure out what to tell within these parameters or sort of understanding as a producer too, where we know we can sort of like, even like slip through the cracks, this or that. So I just, particularly with prisons, colors can actually be, can be a huge one. And I just need like a prison version too, like we have situations where like a dress neckline had to change up to more the day in the prison. And more like other weapons, obviously have to be different. Yeah, and I'm not sure if we're going to get there too, but like producing for these moments and making sure that a program person or producer, like I walk through Roxana or myself is like looking at every single costume before it comes into tech to say, okay, a pair of tights needs to come with us on the road. Okay, we need to have under like long sleeves. Where she needs to wear a cardigan too. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So understanding those dress codes. So. And one thing I learned when I was in New York with you guys is New York prisons are like a whole another level than Minnesota prisons. So what's each community that you guys come from, your community is really different. And I'm sort of speaking from the Minnesota community. But yeah, your prisons are a whole other thing for sure. And yes, it's really great. You need to have one person for us. It's Nancy who's always speaking about that prison. And those prison requirements is always being picked through from that angle is really, really important. So, yes. Tell us what you've done, where you have shows where you have to use weapons and how you've changed or altered that. We never, we will, I don't know, shake your arm. We just, one of the very strict requirements that I think we've mostly gotten away with is using is like no actual gun, like you. No guns are reaching for guns. Yeah, yeah, no knives and yeah. We move the floor up. Hand to hand is your friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For 12th night, you know, the big sword fight that happens in there. There was a boxing match. Okay. You know, they had all boxing gloves. And you know, I will do stuff like that. And we can get by oftentimes with like really crudely like wood things painted green. So it's really obviously. And also Nancy has this whole art from the past. We have to send in the props before we go in. So she'll just list something as like a stick. Instead of a sword. Like what you call it on the prop list, really, really matters. And it's helpful for getting things through the box. And it can actually help you with the gag. Because for us, for 12th night, his boxing gloves were pink. So just when, as soon as he comes out with these pink boxing gloves, like everybody in the audience are just like, Oh my God, this is just hilarious. So there is joy and limitations. That was the thing of this theater. Is this actually, there's great joy in finding out how much you can do. Also, I haven't used this yet. I'm thinking about the club night, but towels, using a towel as a weapon. Oh yeah, we used that. We used your towel. This is your link to it. Yeah, yeah. You really really can't. Yes, Kate. Well, we did 12 night at Sing Sing last year. Originally, we thought we were going to do a balloon animal for all of our friends. We thought that that would be the way to solve it. Except that, in fact, it turns out to be a terrible bad-dened idea. It's subtle drugs. So we did all of our props, all of our weapons were sealed vinyl inflatable toys and you could buy them on the street. Awesome. That's sort of similarly like for Sir Andrew, his skirt was never quite inflatable. We've used the oversized, like you do the oversized things, but I found this, in martial arts, I found these swords, bamboo swords, that they used to practice with. And they're bamboo, they're blunt end, but they look great as swords and we've never had them turned down. And we've done Titus and Dronicus and Julius Caesar three times. That's fantastic. And both Kate and Kurt, I think if you don't know them, they are just awesome at doing Shakespeare with Prism populations. And they know so much about that, but I encourage you to talk to them and find out about the work. Yes, I can. Sure, I just was wondering you could speak to sort of your approach to casting and the same thousand things approach to casting, because I think, you know, as an actor who works around town, we all get to play roles with you that I don't think you would play in other places. Yeah. I just think it's important that that's a part of your directing style. Sure. Well, I mean, it's just, again, I started doing this in the 80s and 90s when diversity on stage was not, let alone forget about diversity in your audience, but diversity on stage was rarely in people's minds. But for me, it's just fundamental if I'm having people watch theater who've never seen it before, I want them to be able to see themselves on stage, right? And I want them to be able to see themselves in ways they have perhaps never seen themselves before. So it is that color-conscious thing. The kinds of plays we do for me, and this is just our model, you might have a model where you only go to Spanish-speaking communities or Asian-American communities, but because we go to, you know, and take each show to 16 different community sites, the populations are as diverse as possible. So I need the stories we tell. I need to be able to cast it that way. I need to make sure there's a way for everyone to be part of the story and in ways that they don't often get to see themselves. And for me, a huge part of my work has been making room for women, right? Because we love our all-female audiences. I think, you know, the women's prisons and the women's treatment centers that we go to are just very special. And I really want them to be able to see themselves in ways that they haven't, which is why, you know, our all-female Henry IV was so not only exciting for the actresses, but for the women to be able to see themselves, to be body and rowdy and rule-breaking and drunken and swearing and all of that stuff. It's so liberating. And then we did the show. We're so respectful of it. And Kira describes this so well. She was at that church. She said, you could see the men see themselves in the women. And that does not happen in a world very often. We, as women, are always trained to identify with the male mirror. Because, you know, we're used to things we call from the men's point of view. But to see them men, and like a guy came up to the women playing hot spur afterwards, just like, yeah, no, I totally knew how hot spur felt. You know, like, and just started going off with this whole experience of how he felt like hot spur. But he had seen himself in this woman. And for me, it's like a joy. It's like opening up possibilities for people. For people who are actors who don't often get passed that way. And for people in our audiences. So for me, yeah, I, it's just one of the greatest pleasures of it. And you know that little adage, casting is 90% of directing. I really feel like most directors do not put 90% of their creative energy into directing. And it's into casting. And when you do, it's just, it really, really shines off the stage, I think. Yes, Jenna, I'm curious. So here's a story of your actresses from her place where, especially in the men's prison, she got heckled very badly as a young attractive African American woman. How do you deal with some of that struggle? Yeah. To deal with racial, you know, pictures. Yeah, you know, I think the scariest thing for all of any audience is always, for all of us, it's kind of the men's prison. And it's simply because the way I learned to say it to myself is that they are honest about their research. And so that's, and it often doesn't happen. Like sometimes they really surprise us. Like the men are actually really sympathetic to and supportive of the women because they are reminding them of their sister or someone in their lives that they really care about. But sometimes they're not. I think our worst one was a fellow. And the actress behind Testimona, like they cheered when Testimona got killed. So some things to take away from that is that, A, that probably happened in Shakespeare's time. You know what I mean? Because there were men playing the women's part. So that's very interesting. And I think it took us all by surprise that we actually didn't know how to respond to it and we just laughed. I think now we would try to figure out ways to have a conversation. But it's something we're always aware of in the rehearsal room that that can happen. And we try to make choices that fight against that misogyny. And oftentimes the actors, like the actors in our company, if what we do is we're like, they're being honest with us about what they think about this character. And so sometimes the actors find ways in the following lines to actually have a conversation with the audience about what they're actually feeling and show them other possibilities. The best example I can think of this is when we did the uncycled Molly Brown. And well, you'll see a little bit of this tomorrow. But there's a scene where there's this like, we use toy furniture, obviously, a little bit. Brass bed, twine with roses, and it's present that Johnny's giving Molly. And so he pulls off the cover. And in the women's prison, the women saw the little brass bed and they're like, oh, it's so sweet. And they have tears in their eyes. And then the men's prison, you have to remember that Johnny's also just giving Molly a stove. He's unveiled a new, some other new piece of furniture. When he unveils the bed, the guys are like, yeah! Payback time. And the kind of thing we can't be proud of is that even if Brown was able to, like it was sort of a visceral thing he did, he was like, no guys, actually, we're not going to do this next. He didn't say it, but it was just in the way he said the next line. He said, we're actually going to recite a poem for her. And it was this visceral thing where the guys were kind of, whoa, whoa, whoa. And so because they were so honest, we were able to find a way to make us steer the conversation to consider other possibilities. Yes, Rebecca? I think it's a really important question, but I also want to mention that, like, it's not safe other places, too. Like, I mean we just got to spend months now hearing this, right? Like, if you can make the personal room a safe experience for all actors, especially women actors, like, that's such a big leg up over so many. I don't know, I think it's important to not get hung up on like, it's dangerous because we're going to prison. It's like, it's dangerous to be a woman. I guess the question is like, how do you prepare actors who are doing this for the first time? Do you just have to let them live through it? We do not try to talk about why we're making the choices we're making. No, actually, I'm so sorry to interrupt. I feel like it's really important today. There's a big difference between the storytelling of the play and how the audience is responding to the story of the play, which is what you just described. And I completely agree. Like, having the actors like redirect that energy is really important. But the thing that you're describing, how to happen on my watch, too, where a woman or any actor is being harassed and in the play is different and it is not okay and it is not, we should not allow it to happen. So here's what we do. Because this happened, I think it's fucking terrible, please. It's the same situation as a young African-American woman who is sort of like, you're like, the, the, the, is that show the cellar? No, different, different. But, but this is what we now say to our actors in the beginning of every rehearsal process. You can hear things from your place in the square that I can't hear right about there and nobody should feel diminished or unsafe in these spaces. No, absolutely not. We're individual. And therefore, every actor in our productions has the, they're empowered to, to save time out. That's something to show. I don't feel safe. They can say it for the center of the stage what we more often will encourage what you do is to like, edge to the scene, there's always one of us in a corner and they can come right off stage and say, this is what just happened to me and this is what I heard. And then what we will do, we always ask the actors not to course correct an audience member's behavior themselves. They can say, I call time out and then they can walk off stage and then we will talk to they can tell us and then we will either, we'll work with the staff. This is like, whether the staff is prison guards or if it's, teachers, this happens, it's just not okay. And so the thing of like, saying to the actors, because there is no work to hide and they're experiencing things that we don't always hear in the bombs we have you, but empowering them to be like, no. We've never had that happen because I think the actors feel like they have that power that they can play. But I do think it's super important to discuss between the reaction to the story and the actual individual. Yeah, it's beautiful Stephanie and thank you. And that's something I can add again. And like it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it's great. It's really important. I think that's really true and I think we'll start doing that too. And we'll say 90% of the time what comes out of the audience is supportive, it's in the story, it's not abusive. And yeah, there's some guys who like to talk and shit, whatever. But it usually doesn't bother the actors, but I love that idea that if it does, we give them that power. That's beautiful. Yes. I don't know. In San Diego, we just got different kinds of prisoners. You know, we were doing, yeah, it was measured. You know, there's a scene where the nun is attacked. And we had two totally different reactions to it that surprised me. One was in the women's prison where most of the women that are there have been victims of domestic or sexual violence. And in that scene, some of the women there were laughing about it. And I don't know if it was a stress-related thing, but it was undoubtedly that there were a couple of women that were laughing. And then in the men's prison when we did that, and she says, and the nun says, who would I go to? Who would believe me? And the men in the prison said, you come to us. And both of those reactions just totally surprised me because they weren't what I thought was going to happen. I thought that it would have been, you know, some way around. Yeah, it's always surprising. You never can predict for sure. And then oftentimes are really supportive of the women. And it's a chance for them to get to show about it because they're just with men all day. So it can be really great that way. Yes. For me, because I'm probably putting the portions up here inside. And... Oh, what type of... Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. So I had... Sorry, I shouldn't acknowledge to you as an expert in this scene. Oh, no, no, no, that's okay. That's okay. But anyway, I have a pattern on Stephanie with what you're saying that a lot of times, because I'll take five person paths, sin, and I sit in the front row with the guys. And there's a culture established of theoretical and whatnot. But I'm the guy that stands up and says, okay, so we're going to go ahead and take a brief pause because they know me and I don't put the onus on that actor to say, like, I'm uncomfortable right now because it's almost an admission of being a victim in that moment. And so I want to take whatever attention that is and squash it there to say, no. She's fine with it, but I'm not. But why do you can't hear it? Because I do. That's why I sit in the front row. Oh, but sometimes there's like stuck in that corner that you can't hear. I don't know because you do it there a lot of times and if I'm in a community room and I'm in cool, hydro rooms and everything else. Those are really good options, for sure. Yeah. That's another ability to be like, but now we're talking about we don't sit in the front row and I think that's a great suggestion. And I think that kind of what you're pointing to and I think we use this tool as well the person who is standing that curtain speech moment the like welcome comes not just a welcome which is wonderful but also you're sort of the guide for what you're curating and the most helpful sort of thing for me over the years is that has been to own that and for the actors to understand that even the stage manager that just we just had this happen in Rikers where something was happening in the audience I was like, all right, well now it's just too distracting. And the stage manager didn't stop the show. I did. Because I was like, all right, exactly the same thing. We're gonna take a minute. We'll be right back with you, etc. And having somebody on that tour who is established on the company side and the audience side is like I am the ringmaster and I am sort of not formally in charge but emotionally in charge of our own well-being is really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you've taken to adding into your curtain speeches if the show has some particular intense moments to explain. These guys can hear you and so respect them and that's always seemed to really resonate with whatever groups we're speaking to. Especially when all the audience is like, whenever I'll do it, I'll say. So some of these scenes are really difficult for the actresses to do. I know that you guys are gonna really support them so that they're able to do their jobs and they actually, it oftentimes really, really works. Just that simple appeal to, you know, respect and help the actors through that can really work too. But again, I don't know, in Minnesota it's not a very big problem. It's just like once a tour maybe. I mean, I know Kim really is often, she has a great, she said, yeah, they like to laugh. Sometimes they like to laugh mean sometimes, but some of them kind of do like to do that. But in general, it's generous and hard to help. Just one flip on the Desdemona because the Manatee Desdemona. Oh yeah. Our male audience is wet. Oh, that's great. Every show, every show they were doing, they were deeply touched. So maybe that didn't happen in Shakespeare's time, although the Grammlings are probably different than the Amos too. You know, like it's all who knows. But that's a beautiful story. I really like to hear that. Yes, Jonathan? Yeah, just kind of had a question going way back. We talked about casting. Because, I mean, these are different populations in your typical Lorde theater. Finding the right people, I know we say the best actors, but sometimes the best actors aren't the ones on the Lorde stages because they're too big or they're of color. Wow. They're just anatomy shows for people of color in this season. We love to work. That doesn't mean working. Right. But I mean, open general auditions give me 90 seconds of your two contrasting mobs don't seem like the best way for this kind of work. I know we would want to do an interview, but as one who is just starting out, I'm feeling like getting the right group is going to be essential. And I'm just curious to hear any kind of best practices, maybe, what other theaters have done. I mean, I know you've been around forever. It's like, you know, your name carries a cache, but when this is a new start-up. Well, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm usually in the room when we're doing auditions and I'm very clear on where we're going and what we're doing and letting people know what's going to be expected of them. Head on. You know, that you're expected to interact with the actors. And then what we also do is there's a mingle in the park at the beginning where the actors are expected to welcome them in and shake their hands and say, hey, how are you doing and introduce themselves and then to talk to the people that are there in the room. And I let them know that all of this stuff is expected. And if you have a problem with that, then this probably isn't going to be for you. You know, and most people really want to do it. This year was a little odd and it was appreciated and we didn't have a returning professional with us. Returning, what I would say, professional, someone that's done the program before and done the model. And it was really odd. You know, we had to really, you know, work with the characters today. You know, like, this is important that you do this thing. Because I think that a lot of them were really initially scared even though we had not gained them and I told people that and they knew what it was coming in. They still didn't really quite know how to do it. So we had to go around and introduce people. Say, hey, you know, like you have a buddy now and you walk around and you introduce, you know, this is one of the actors in the show. You know, hey, how are you guys doing, you know? So we have to go and incorporate that. And then once they, once the actors themselves were able to do that and go around, their performance elevated because they had a connection then with the people that were watching the show and the people that were watching the show had a connection to them and wanted to see them succeed in the role. So it became a whole different thing and you saw how the, how the, how the play itself just received so much more energy at that point. Yeah, that's a really good point. And did you invite your athletes, did you hand take your actors for your project or did you have open audition? Some, yes, we do. We had some, we had an open audition or invited an audition. I don't know how to do it as a kid here. You know, so they, they have, we had a whole bunch of actors that came there. And then some of the actors come, our graduates, recent graduates from our MFA program. So they participate as well. Yeah, I mean, I think what you want is not only actors who are excellent at it, but people are attracted to it. People who are generous. Yes. People who want to reach out. People who do. It's actually a relief not to be doing a show for the review or for their career, but like it's, there's just a joy in like being relieved of all those kinds of pressures and in wanting to be met. So it's kind of self-selecting. Once people find out, like people that are, I think Stephanie, you were saying the first time you did it, you had some actors who really were just there for the public shows to be seen. And then you find the agents and you learn, you know, right? Is that right? Do I tell them that story? I'm originally absolutely right. And I think that is to say, I look forward to this entire, this entire sort of session. It begins with the director. You do not have a director who is setting that tone in the room. And, but you could also say, it begins with the producer to say the director, this is the assignment. It's not this, it's this. So you're actually. And since I am both, I feel both. The factors I work with, and I say this about every one of you that's in the room, are just wonderful human beings. Like, they're funny, they're kind, they're generous, and they're really good actors, too. So that's kind of what you want. Yes. And I also, in addition to what everybody else has done, I also, there's a callback. I write it out in the original description. Bring down about the kind of work. But when you call back, I have a little interview session about here's where we're going. How do you feel, what's your most challenging acting experience? We're going to be integrating in these different communities. How do you, how do you feel about that? Where, you know, just so I can get in touch with who they are as human beings. More than anything, it's their spirit that matters most. In addition, of course, to the acting that's got to be there. I see that all day. But what kind of human being are they? And what do they have to give to this kind of community and this kind of work? And I've asked those questions, just by body language, or their response. I'm like, that's great. Thank you very much. We're not having that person. Because people have hang-ups. You don't often have this intersection like that. It's not for everybody. It's not. And you also have to drive on the fact that you are a guest. You are a guest, so you have to be respectful in these different spaces. You just don't come in and move things and you don't even offer, ask for permission. And that again goes back to what kind of artist are you? Are you a generous artist? Or are you some other kind of artist? And that other kind of artist does the service. Does anyone who's taking notes know what kind of this is? Yeah, it's 312. We're going to take our fine. 315. We're at 315. We're not there right now. I'll just say it. I said it. Yeah, all those things are true about generous spirit and all that kind of awesome stuff. But if you pay your actors really well get the ones if they have a choice and it's a difference of 100 bucks and they either go and do the show at the Guthrie or hang out here and do this work they will be here. And you've seen that many times people have definitely chosen a show with 10,000 things over something where they may get paid a little bit more money because they don't get to play these kinds of roles there or these other places and these directors don't see them that way and you know it has also happened the other way where people have been like hey man this one's going on Berkeley so I'm sorry I can't you know first you find the people you want and then all these people want to work for you and then you pay them really well really well. Thank you and it took time to get there too. I know and that's what I was over to say there's new theaters, that's what I guess and that's in the other room. If you're coming from this theater the question is if you're from a established theater that already has a bunch of resources make sure those resources are going to the people if you're just starting out then you know you do what you can but the great joy of this kind of work is because it's not set in lights and costumes your resources can all be focused on the artists and the human energies involved so even if you're just doing it with a little to get started that focus and priority commitment to paying people well really goes the wrong way this is a follow-up like trust and respect I've been producing my own work for a decade and I frequently can't pay people but you know what? I have a good experience and I treat them like professionals and I make sure that they do not regret any moment in that room I feel like that's what I need to do see you guys, thank you so much thank you