 Good afternoon. I'm Rebecca Marquez with PMMI Business Intelligence, and I'd like to thank you for joining today's webinar on PMMI's 2019 Flexible Packaging Report. Over the next hour, Jennifer Zeman with Proactive Worldwide will provide insight into the flexible packaging market, including trends and advances, growth, and challenges and opportunities. Jennifer's experience with Proactive Worldwide in the consumer and industrial goods practice began as a research analyst working on research projects for a wide array of businesses, from QSRs, or a quick service restaurant, to Fortune 100 CPG companies. She now serves as a director, guiding the research process for proactive consumer and industrial goods team. At the end of the presentation, which will last approximately 45 to 50 minutes, Jennifer will answer any questions you may have. At this point, I would like to hand the webinar over to Jennifer Zeman with Proactive Worldwide. Thank you, Rebecca. Welcome, everyone. As Rebecca alluded to, we have engaged in some research on the flexible packaging industry and wanting to understand a variety of topics. The research took place over the last two months of 2018, so we interviewed and talked to a wide variety of respondents both within consumer and industrial companies, packaging equipment manufacturers, raw material suppliers, consultants, and people who work in pharmaceuticals, and a variety of different industries. Today's study, we're going to recap a lot of the findings related to how the market has changed since PMMI lasted the study. We will talk about the trends and processing that are affecting the industry, and we will look at a variety of opportunities that may arise for PMMI members to take advantage of. So jumping right into understanding the market and the growth that's gone on, over the last several years, the flexible packaging market in the United States has grown remarkably. It's grown 61% since early 2000. So it is one of the fastest growing segments of the packaging world. When we looked at where flexible packaging falls in, it roughly represents about 19% of the market overall for packaging that is used in the United States. Of that flexible packaging, a vast majority of the packaging is done in pouches, and that growth is continuing in those categories, whether it is the pillow pouch, the stand-up pouches, or the side load pouches. So those are all three different types of pouches that you're going to hear consistently mentioned throughout our engagement today. When we talk about where flexible packaging is going and how much it is expected to continue to grow, it is definitely something that has a strong growth potential. It's almost 4% year over year that it's expected to continue to grow. In fact, a lot of industry experts are putting that number at around $391 billion for the end of 2023. So that is remarkable growth, as you can see from where it is currently today. Food is the largest user of flexible packaging. However, we are seeing incursions into other packaging categories such as personal care products or household products. So you're going to see mentions throughout of different avenues aside from food where flexible packaging is growing. And then, as we mentioned, the growth in flexible packaging is really being driven by food and beverage, healthcare, cosmetics. But we're also seeing it starting to make its way into other avenues such as agricultural goods or oils and lubricants, paints. Things of that nature are all moving from traditional rigid plastics or rigid metal cans into more flexible packaging. The key demand that's driving that growth is largely convenience, ease of use, less weight to the packaging itself, as well as needing less storage space overall. So all of that will be touched upon as we go through the findings today. To give kind of an understanding of where the global market is for flexible packaging, the U.S. and Europe tend to be the largest market driving a lot of the change, but Asia has also had a strong growth in flexible packaging and is actually seeing some of the strongest growth numbers moving forward. Mexico and Latin America are a little bit behind the rest of the world when it comes to adoption of flexible packaging, but they are seeing strong growth incursions, especially in the food industry, in adopting flexible packaging due to convenience and the need for single-serve sizing. Overall, when we look at the globe, where do we see flexible packaging being used most? It tends to be in categories such as beauty and personal care, beverage, pet food, food, and home care. Pet food is actually experiencing some really strong growth globally when it comes to adopting flexible packaging. What we've been hearing from sources within the pet food industry is that the pouches often provide greater barriers and greater ability to have reseals or reclosability if you would for wet food products, so that is an area where it is seeing some strong demand. When we talk about what is driving growth and where we're seeing flexible packaging growing globally, similar to the United States, the plastic pouches are seeing the fastest growth, but there are other types of pouches that are seeing growth as well, or other types of flexible material growing as well. You do see growth a little bit in the flexible paper packaging. A lot of the bakery segment is seeing growth in that segment in other parts of the world, so that is something that is one thing we wanted to call out. Other changes and trends that are different between the different regions is in Asia, for example, you'll see a lot more of the flexible packaging that is using customized shapes and styles, really eye-catching type of product packaging such as having tuna fish packaged in a pouch that's fish-shaped, for example, or using really bright colors and different types of inks on the packaging. That is something that Asia has long led the tradition of moving forward. You're starting to see some of that adoption in Europe already, and slowly it's working its way into the United States. We will have further discussion about some of the customized shapes later in this deck. And then when we ask about why pet food and some of the other segments like food are growing so strongly in other markets around the world, we understand that it is because it's easiest to move those products into flexible packaging, whereas some of the other products such as personal care, they're still worried about the premium look of packaging and wanting to make sure that they don't lose their, I guess, premium nature by moving from a glass container, for example, into a flexible pouch. However, as you'll see as we go through our presentation today, there has been some moves towards premium flexible packaging, and that is lessening the stigma or the barrier to moving away from premium glass or rigid plastics. So we will also go through some of that today as well. Moving into the trends, convenience and sustainability are two categories that are really pushing flexible packaging growth. So you have the ongoing trend of convenience on the go, single serve sizes, as things that are driving people towards having flexible packaging, things that are easily portable, lightweight, can take with them, throw in a bag, and not have to worry about them leaking or adding too much weight to their journeys as people are moving on and about. So a lot of manufacturers are adopting flexible packaging in ways to allow for this lifestyle trend and support of that. They also see that the need comes then for specialty closures when you are talking about having products that are on the go or convenience where people can use it. People want to be able to not have to completely open the pouch and not be able to access the contents or use the contents. So you are seeing people adopt greater use of spouts and spoons that are packaged with the flexible packaging or other pop-up straws and things of that nature to make the products easily consumed while on the go. The convenience factor is actually a great driver of flexible package adoption in categories like frozen foods and household products. So you are seeing flexible packaging being used in innovative ways to be able to take a product from a freezer for example and put it through the cooking process and then bring it direct to the table without having to take it out of its packaging. So that is changing some of the ways companies such as frozen vegetables or meats are looking at flexible packaging and what it can be used for. Household cleaning products are also adapting flexible packaging as people want to be able to take the cleaning products with them to work to their car or to just have it for convenience sake around without having to lug a heavy bottle with them as they go up and down stairs or to different places in their houses. As a result, CPG companies in particular have mentioned that they are investing in a lot more vertical form fill and sealing equipment or stick pack machines and pre-made pouch equipment to support the need and move towards flexible packaging. When they look at the equipment they are looking at things such as the servo speeds so that they can have flexible packaging still move through at fast speeds and smoothly go through their operations. When it comes to sustainability, a lot of companies have very stringent goals of how they want to achieve sustainability and are worried that flexible packaging may not always fit into the needs that they have for it. They have been looking at flexible films and trying to decide how they might change those films to make them more recyclable or more sustainable overall. Some of the companies that we spoke with mentioned putting stains in the films that can facilitate the film breakdown over time in a compost pile or using starch and biodegradable films. The key there is they want to make sure that even if they are moving to these newer technologies that the barrier properties still remain in place but they said that they have looked at are showing very promising trends on that so that is an exciting area that they are continuing to look forward to. When it comes to 3D printing, this is an area that allows companies to print directly onto the films and have really high quality use of those films. It also allows them to be able to do smaller batch productions. It reduces the waste of the materials as it reuses materials throughout the process. The 3D printing allows them to take the excess film and recycle it back in and use it into their systems currently. When it comes to talking about the films themselves and where they are looking at drawing new ways of using it, there is a lot of talk about wanting to have films that extend shelf life. There is no sense in moving from a traditional can or glass container if the flexible packaging material doesn't support the life cycle on the shelf or extended even. People have to see the trade-off be equal in that space. When they are looking at the implementation of different barrier technologies it has to be able to preserve and protect the content. While it is becoming increasingly important, they are looking at things like alternatives to foils so that the flexible packaging can become more transparent in allowing customers to actually see the products. The problem with some of the transparent films that they have mentioned in the past has been upholding some of those barrier properties. That is an area where they are continuing to seek improvements and really have a drive and a need to see continued growth in that space. One of the things that we did hear mentioned about the foil packaging used in pouches is that it is often seen as a successful replacement for glass and metal when it is used in retort or for hot-filled products. That is something that people are excited about and are looking to continue to migrate towards. When we talked earlier about films being needed for flexible packaging being used for premium positioned products, that is an area where people have mentioned hesitancy to move away from maybe some of their traditional glass products or things of that nature. Some of the newer products that are out there for flexible packaging allow customers to have a different feel on the material. If not a plastic feel any longer, they can create feels of a matte finish or a soft touch which really helps convey some of the premium positioning that products such as cosmetic companies are looking to put forward. That is something that is highly of interest to a lot of different manufacturers that we spoke to, but there are still some concerns whether or not that type of material with soft touch feel or matte finish will run through the machines at the same speeds as traditional flexible packaging might. That is an area to be aware of as people are looking at changing out the material types that are being used. When it comes to retail ready packaging, there is a strong push by many large retailers especially here in the United States. Walmart is a big proponent of pushing companies towards using more retail ready packaging. The discussion around flexible packaging centers no longer are flexible packaging being viewed as just products for peg stands. In fact retailers are saying that they really dislike using peg stands and wanting to have the manufacturers move towards products that are being able to be put on a shelf. The stand up pouches in particular are of great interest to retailers because it is easy to set up on a shelf. It does not necessarily need anything to support the flexible packaging. They can do it on their own. However flexible packages that are in shelf ready trays so having a secondary packaging of a cardboard tray is also something that is minimal to them. Anything that makes it easier for them to put product on a shelf without having to require stacking and heavy labor is seen as a good thing and something that they are pushing retailers towards. When it comes to trends in technology for flexible packaging you are seeing a variety of flexible packaging starting to incorporate some of the technologies that have been out there for a number of years especially in the pharmaceutical space. You are seeing flexible packaging encompassing RFID tags or using serialization to mark products as they are being put through the system. Those are things that are well understood and well known in the pharmaceutical space but they are starting to make its way over into other spaces such as the food packaging and other categories. Some of the other newer ones have to do along the lines with the flexographic printers and biodegradable films that are being used in the packaging. What we are seeing as we talked with a variety of sources is that use of digital printing on films or the stand-up packages and stand-up pouches themselves or the three side bags really are enabling serialization to be pushed forth into newer categories that hadn't necessarily seen it and it is great for many manufacturers who are looking to comply with various issues that the FDA may put forth in terms of tracking products from farm to consumer. That is something that is highly looked upon as a good trend. The flexographic printers are allowing companies to see greater use of efficiencies in operation. We spoke to one company that mentioned converting to flexographic printers allowed them to have a 30% increase in production just because of the speed of which the machines were able to process the product and put them through. You are also able to see that flexographic printers enabled companies to do smaller runs so if they want to switch and do more small batch production flexographic printers allow them to be able to do that with less wasted material and that is considered a great trend and a good benefit for the company overall. When it comes to another key driver of adoption of flexible packaging e-commerce cannot be overlooked. E-commerce is really influencing how flexible packaging is being used. Companies like Amazon for example are promoting flexible packaging. When people are shopping online they are not seeing the packages as they might in a retail format, a traditional brick and mortar retail format. They are actually looking at the product themselves. Companies are looking at e-commerce as a way of being able to change some of their packaging. Having less cost built into that packaging is considered favorable as the consumer is not seeing the packaging until it actually gets to the consumer. They are thinking of different ways of making the product easily transportable, reducing shipping costs, and by reducing shipping costs it often focuses on weight. Flexible packaging is often considered a good alternative to some of the traditional corrugated boxes or rigid plastics due to the weight factor. Pouches in particular are also thought to stand up well in e-commerce shipping as they are able to withstand the different air pressures during the entire shipping process that may occur. That is something that is considered favorable. They do not have to worry as much about content if they use stand up flexible packages. When we talked with retailers that are active in the e-commerce space and what are they looking to do when they ship products around, a lot of the comments meant that flexible packaging such as pouches is great, but what they are finding is that there is a greater increase in need for secondary packaging such as shrink wrap. Often they will use shrink wrap bands to bind together various lay flat pouches or other flexible packaging products rather than using corrugated boxes. To that end, one example that we heard was that Amazon itself has actually invested in some secondary packaging machinery itself so that it can do some of that shrink wrap banding and not put that onus on the actual manufacturer. They will take it into their own facilities however the manufacturer ships it and then they will put it in shrink wrap bands to how they want to ship it to the consumer. In fact, when we look at e-commerce and where some of the key drivers and what segments are being most affected, it is really strongly affecting the food industry in terms of online grocery. One estimate that we received mentioned that the online grocery market here in the United States is expected to be a $100 billion industry by 2022. You can see the move to e-commerce is continuing to grow and will continue to have long-term effects on how people look at their packaging and how it is easily transported through the system. When it comes to packaging innovations, we mentioned earlier that in the Asian market we have seen a lot of customization of flexible packaging. That is starting to become more widespread here in the United States as well. You are seeing manufacturers that believe flexible packaging allows them to create impressions that last longer with their customers than traditional packaging formats might. You might see as depending on who the target audience is that the flexible packaging that is produced might aim at that particular segment. The example I gave earlier was tuna fish in a pouch that is shaped like a fish. Similarly, it allows manufacturers to find unique sizes and unique methods of conveying product qualities and attributes. It is something that many manufacturers are considering and continuing to look forward to. In fact, four out of five of the manufacturers that we spoke with mentioned having been pressured by their customers to add new shapes into their flexible packaging just in the past year. It is something that is growing as a trend and it is something that people are continuing to look for different ways to adopt. Again, some of the reasons manufacturers might pause on adopting some of those customized packaging is worry over how their machines may adapt to that, how it will affect speeds, whether or not they are able to put things through. However, one third of manufacturers that we spoke with do believe that customized shapes is something that is going to grow strongly over the next few years and actually have plans to look at how they are going to be able to incorporate more customized shapes in their product portfolios over the next one to two years. Manufacturers also mentioned wanting to continue to push in design of new innovative closures. Closures is something that people are continuing to want. The on-the-go convenience kind of drives a lot of that demand. But just in general, as the population ages, for example, there is need for easy open closures that allow the elderly to be able to access products but still retaining the seal that is needed for it. Many of the manufacturers we spoke with mentioned that they are looking at a variety of different types of closures that are really appealing to them currently. Happen to be the snap to seal tops or the press to close zippers. Things that are easy for most people to use and continue allowing people to continue using their products for a longer period of time. When it comes to other innovations such as freshness indicators, this is an area where intelligent indicators are continuing to slowly be adapted into the food industry for very highly perishable foods. You often see it more with the fish or meat products. But we did hear about companies such as nutraceutical companies or pharmaceutical companies also seeing an upswing in use of intelligent indicators to indicate the freshness of their products. So that is something that is slowly growing in the market, but we continue to see mention of it as people are looking for extended shelf-lives and addressing consumer concerns about freshness. Some of the challenges and opportunities that have been mentioned as we were researching and talking with a variety of different sources have to do with concerns over the tariffs. As you remember, 2018 was a big year for swings in price due to tariffs and a lot of the foils that are used for some of the flexible packaging do tend to come from China or Asia and have a direct cost in impact on the tariffs. So that is an area where people have mentioned having concerns and needs about getting product in and wanting to make sure that they have a sustained supply of it. We also heard that the cost of changing your systems from a traditional canning process or any other packaging process to a flexible packaging can be a little bit steep. And if they don't plan it properly, it can be a concern in terms of how they are able to effectively and profitably do it. We do have a variety of companies that we spoke to though such as one very famous chocolate syrup manufacturer who mentioned moving from canned products with a pump to a pouch product with a pump as noting huge savings in the long-term by doing that conversion. The cost up front was a little bit prohibitive, but once they made that conversion they saw a reduction of about 25% on the cost of the product overall to produce. So people just need to hear more of those stories and more of how moving to flexible packaging does have some long-term benefits. Consumers are challenging manufacturers on the front of flexible packaging and wanting to make sure that the products that they receive when it's coming online maintain their integrity, are able to be transported without having prohibited shipping costs, things of that nature. So that is really an area that is challenging many manufacturers to rethink how they are moving their product through their systems and how they are getting it to the end customer. And then many of the manufacturers mentioned that there are so many changes going on in the industry of flexible packaging that sometimes it's very difficult for them to keep up with those rapid changes and knowing what is the proper solution that they want to be looking for. They rely on their equipment manufacturers to provide them with the best-case scenario for their situation. They want the equipment manufacturers to really be the experts in knowing, you know, if I have this type of product and I want to move it to flexible packaging what is the best flexible packaging format, what is the best equipment to use for that. However, despite all the challenges, all the challenges are viewed as relatively easy to overcome if there's proper education, if there's proper return on investment scenarios presented to them, really where the opportunity for equipment manufacturers lie is in the fact that pouches are ever growing in demand. Retailers are pushing manufacturers to that. So pouch production is where we do see a lot of companies looking to invest and really understand what it's going to mean for their business. Stand-up pouches in particular are an area where manufacturers want to understand and be able to address the retail-ready packaging that the retailers are pushing for. So that is an area where many companies are starting to look into how they're able to convert their current packaging formulations into more stand-up pouches. One company that we spoke to just to provide you with an example is using a stand-up pouch for a condiment. And they ended up seeing an increase actually in sales based off of switching it to this stand-up pouch versus its traditional plastic bottle format that it had been in. And that is something that they didn't expect. They were expecting to see reduced costs of shipping costs, things of that nature. So the actual boost that they saw in sales was a surprise to them and a pleasant one. It's something that we've heard mentioned several times, just having a change in the packaging format itself reinvigorates their consumers to look at the product again with fresh eyes. So that's something that we wanted to note. As we get into understanding some of the unmet needs and potential that flexible packaging provides for our equipment manufacturers, for PMMI members, what we're hearing largely relies around four different areas in terms of the actual equipment itself. They want flexibility to be able to handle those customized sizes or different styles. With that comes the need for faster change-overs that is a continuous theme that has been brought up under many different aspects of equipment needs. Speed of operation. This was mentioned as an area of concern. The thought is that pouches run at a slower run rate than cans or bottles. Several sources told us that pouches tend to run at speeds of around 180 pouches per minute. But many want that count to be up in the 300 to 400 range of 300 to 400 pouches per minute. So you can see where companies may have a pause in investing in equipment if they're not sure that they're going to get this rate of return that they're looking for in terms of speed. It often requires them to invest in more equipment, which also leads to an area of which people mentioned having limited space in their facility and wanting to have the flexible packaging equipment fit into existing floor plans and space. So having footprints for the machinery that can mimic or model the smaller footprints that they have in place would be greatly appreciated. Manufacturers are looking for help from their materials suppliers and from their equipment manufacturers in ways to reduce waste. With sustainability goals that their companies may have in place in terms of wanting to reduce their carbon footprint, you have companies that are looking to reduce material waste and consume less energy. Then the other area where you're seeing companies want equipment manufacturers to help is around the area of automation. So companies are looking for ways to streamline repetitive tasks, have the equipment itself handle a lot of the packaging to make it more efficient. When it comes to some of the service needs, that spans a variety of different areas such as wanting maintenance packages, wanting parts readily available, having technicians available. Everybody knows that finding talent is very difficult in this industry and want to have their equipment manufacturers stacked appropriately to help support. And then of course training is an area where they want their equipment manufacturers to continue to provide support. So overall when we look at all of that and talk to the various respondents we spoke with, what they really wanted is equipment manufacturers to concentrate on flexibility. Over 60% of the respondents that we spoke with mentioned flexibility as a key factor. Wanting smaller footprints and wanting easier to use or reduced waste came in as kind of the second and third tied with what they wanted in terms of achieving out of that. Some very specific examples of equipment that were mentioned that they see gaps in has to do with bagging machines that can install zippers, form fill ceiling machines that can incorporate multiple packages. So an example there that someone gave us was a bag salad product that can incorporate a pouch of dressing into the packaging all through one machine. People mentioned the need for cameras that can read different colors. When they're using more and more stylized packaging and printing they want the cameras to be able to scan the product and make sure that everything is moving appropriately based off of the colors of the ink that might be used. A real critical component that many people mentioned has to do with antistatic. When people are using these flexible packaging films, static is a big problem. They want to see more antistatic components built into the machinery so that they can reduce the static that builds up over time. And then a need for if you're using more pouches and bagged products having more in mind oxygen inspection and leak detection is critical to make sure that the seals are properly adhering and things of that nature. So those are some very specific areas where people called out needs for additional equipment or improved equipment. Then just to round out our discussion today just to give you a sense of who we spoke with. We spoke with 60 different respondents in a variety of industries ranging from food and beverage to pharma, healthcare, pet food, confectionery, a wide range of industries. People's titles generally were responsible for packaging in some aspect whether they were the engineer looking at packaging itself, or product development, things of that nature in terms of who provided insights and responses. And with that, Rebecca, I will open back up the conversation to any questions people may have. Thank you, Jennifer, for your insights on the flexible packaging market. And now, like Jennifer said, we'd like to open up the session for any questions that you may have. If you do have any questions, you are welcome to type them into the chat box at the bottom of your screen and we can retrieve them and address them as they come in. We'll just sit tight for a minute to see if anybody has any questions. And we do have a question that came in. Jennifer, did you get any insights on the use of digital printing in flexible packaging? Yes, we did, actually. We did hear that digital printing is on the rise in flexible packaging, that it is allowing people to print directly onto some of the foils and packages themselves without needing a separate layer or adhesion of a label to a particular product. They like the fact that digital printing allows them to print directly onto the product. And we do have some time for a few more questions. If anyone has some questions. In regards to digital printing on flexible packaging, I'm assuming that this has something to do with the pack material that was talked about at the beginning of the presentation. Is that correct? That is correct. And it looks like we have a couple more questions coming in. Anything on the future of recyclability of films that are being used? Yes, actually. We spoke to a variety of different companies that mentioned recyclability is a major concern in how to increase the recyclability of the flexible packaging being used. People mentioned incorporating more starch-based films to help with allowing flexible packaging to be recycled or break down more easily in landfills. They also mentioned that there are some technologies out there where flexible packaging can put a stain in the dye that is used and that allows the flexible packaging to break down over time. Some of them also talked about reducing the amount of layers of the film that are used. So by consolidating it and building a barrier that may be coated with a film, I believe, that uses silicone oxide, I believe with what was mentioned, that some of the pouches can have a more recyclable barrier used than some of the traditional films. Okay, great. I know that one of the big topics was freshness in food and packaging that's able to maintain that freshness. Did anyone talk about use of paper in flexible packaging? Yes. That came up quite a bit in discussion with the bakery segment as well as with pet food. As many people know, pet food has used flexible paper bags for, for instance, for dog food for a number of years. And the discussion was how was that paper products able to adapt and be used in other formats? And one of the areas that was mentioning use of more paper flexible packaging was the bakery segment. And they said now that there's able to have different paper materials that are creating different fields and textures that those are being more attractive to being used in some of those products because the barriers in terms of preserving freshness are known and well established. Was there any mention of paper at all in personal care? Because I know that you had mentioned that there's sort of a, the thinking is that personal care has more of an interest in maintaining a high end look and feel. Did anybody mention the use of paper in personal care? Not so much as the people we spoke with. I could see why it would be. But it, actually I take that back. Where it was mentioned, it was mentioned by one source who talked about having a product that is an organic natural product and wanting to use paper packaging for that product because it does continue to convey that theme. Oh, okay. That's really interesting. We do have a couple more questions. One of our guests would like to know what are the major countries in terms of flexible packaging materials? What are the major countries that are supplying to the U.S.? That's a great question. We heard a number of people talk about having materials coming over from China. There was some discussion of Southeast Asia also providing products coming from Taiwan, from Vietnam. But there's also still a lot of products coming from Europe into the United States for flexible packaging. And as far as the growth in flexible packaging, did you hear anything about what kind of job creation this could lead to? Like what are going to be some of the positions that will be needed as a result of this growth? That's a great question. I'm not sure that anybody necessarily spoke to how much growth there was going to be in jobs. But I do know people were mentioning hiring packaging engineers who are familiar with working with flexible packaging. I believe it's kind of a double-edged sword. I believe people also mentioned the fact that the more highly automated some of the flexible packaging machines have become has eliminated some need for some positions. So I don't know overall what the job growth prospects would be. And did anybody mention at all, because of this growth in flexible packaging, did anyone talk about what their R&D was like? Did you talk to anyone that just told you what kind of R&D that they were doing? Are they doing more research and development? Did anybody talk about that at all? Where it was mentioned was in conjunction with partnering with their equipment suppliers. So several of the CPG companies that we spoke with, as well as some of the other food and above manufacturers, mentioned wanting to work with their equipment suppliers to have them suggest what might be the best format or packaging type in flexible packaging that they should use for their products. So they're somewhat shifting the onus onto the equipment suppliers. They themselves will run the product and test it. And they mentioned using contract manufacturers for some of that until they know whether or not it's going to be a cost effective and sustainable product that they want to bring into their system. I believe when we were talking with sources, it was as many as 50% of the manufacturers mentioned that they would use contract manufacturers before investing in the equipment until they saw what the return would be for them. Okay. Does that include just aspects of packaging like maintaining freshness and sort of like those types of things? Or was it also, did they want to work with OEMs or contract packages also in look and feel and more sort of branding or marketing aspects as well? It actually was both. They're concerned with some of the changes that they want to make to the look and feel on the marketing side. They're just not sure and convinced that the styles and materials will run through the machines at the rate of speed that normal flexible packaging materials might. So for instance, when we talked about the matte finish on some of the flexible packaging creating different feels, they're worried because that matte finish might have a different texture running through the rollers on the machine that it may slow things down or may cause problems in the equipment so they want the equipment manufacturers to be able to advise them as to if they change to this type of film, what will the impacts be? So it is partially like look and feel and branding aspects as well. I mean, it's kind of all tied together. It's kind of all, yeah, on all sides. And then I think we have time for one or two more questions. We do have someone who would like to have you elaborate a little bit on Amazon producing secondary packaging. Yeah, absolutely. We spoke with a source at Amazon that shared with us that Amazon recently invested in 25 machines and I'm looking for my notes on that to do secondary packaging shrink wrapping. So basically they were taking products that had been traditionally shipped in cardboard boxes and taking them out of the cardboard boxes when they wanted to have a multi-pack and doing the shrink bands themselves on the flexible packaging products so that they didn't have to have the cost of the extra cost in shipping that might come through with whatever added weight the boxes added. Okay, this has been really great, Jennifer. Is there any other questions from any of our guests? We've had quite a few questions today and that's good. Okay, I think we've had all the questions we're going to have. Jennifer, this has been a great presentation. I thank you very much for your tremendous insights and I'd also like to thank everyone who attended the webinar today. On behalf of PMMI, thank you for participating. As a final note, you will be receiving an email with an evaluation for today's webinar. Please take a moment to complete the evaluation and let us know how we can improve future webinars. It will only take a moment of your time. And then I think we can conclude. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you for the opportunity.