 Hi, welcome to People's Dispatch in Globetrotter. Today, we are very happy to have with us Thomas Isaac. Thomas Isaac is the finance minister of Kerala and has been the finance minister for two runs of the left democratic front government first in 2006-2011 and now in the recent term of the government. It's also a prolific author for leftward books having published a book called Building Alternatives and another challenges to Indian fiscal federalism. He has a book that was based on a project which he was very much part of the People's Planning Movement in the 1990s in Kerala which came out in a book with Richard Frank recently reissued from leftward books called People's Planning. Thomas Isaac, welcome to People's Dispatch in Globetrotter. Yeah, I'm very happy to be with you. Well, I know you're very busy or in the middle of the election campaign for the legislative assembly, the new government in Kerala. Polls indicate that the left democratic front is set to break the anti-incumbency history in Kerala since 1980. What do you feel is going to happen, Isaac? What's going on with this election? I feel pretty certain that left is going to be back in power after the election. Now, this will be the first time in Kerala history. There's only one single location, 1977, when the ruling government succeed to come back in power. Otherwise, the power outrage between the left front and the right front, we outrage in power every five years. So it must become an axiom of Kerala politics that every fifth year there will be a change in government. And that I think has caused a continuity in government, caused Kerala lot of social events. For the first time, the left is going to be power continuously for 10 years. That is sufficiently long enough period to leave very substantial imprint upon Kerala's development process. We hope we will be able to design a paradigm of development which will prove to be an alternative, a left alternative within the professional limitations of Indian federalism, which will prove that another world is possible. You see, one of the things that people have been saying is that the government has been very efficient to deal with the floods 2018, 2019, the NEPA virus, the advent of COVID-19 and so on. Let's recognize underneath all that other developments you've put in place. You just said that we're going to have 10 years to chart out an alternative. You've done some incredible things on housing, even on basic infrastructure. I suppose that's what you mean when you say chart an alternative. Tell us a little bit about what that alternative would look like. Okay, it's a kind of hop step and jump. The hope, the first stage is redistributive politics. Kerala has been very noted for that. Our trillion movement has succeeded having significant redistribution of income. Kerala has the highest wage rates in the country. Our present movement has been able to redistribute the land and access through a very successful land reform program. Powerful social movements, big predates even the left movement in Kerala, whose tradition the left has carried forward, has pressurized access to governments which have been empowering Kerala to provide education, healthcare, basic needs of family members. Therefore, Kerala has an honorary person enjoys a quality of life which is much superior to us. Now, this is the situation. But the problem with this process, because we have to spend on social sector so much, there won't be sufficient money for resources for building infrastructure. So, a program of social development spread over more than a half a century, the serious infrastructure deficit in Kerala. So, our present government has been very remarkable as you said in meeting the crisis, ensuring there's no social breakdown, ensuring that nobody in Kerala would go hungry and everybody will get treatment and the COVID times and so on. But we did something more remarkable. It's true, the budget doesn't have the money for the whole infrastructure construction. And we calculated we would require minimum half a trillion rupees investment, it's a huge amount of money. Immediate infrastructure investment in roads, buildings, bridges, industrial parks, transmission lines and so on to come to some 50 to 60,000 crores of rupees. Well, what we did was we, the government of Kerala under Indian law cannot borrow beyond the limit. Even for that limited borrowing, you have to get the permission from the central government. But this does not apply to, say, body corporates which are formed by the states or companies which are formed by the state. So, we have a body corporate, Kerala infrastructure investment fund board, which utilize the new instruments, financial instruments which have been designed under new rules for the corporates to mobilize money from national from the country and outside the country. And we mobilized this money. Therefore, we gave permission for construction of this huge amount of infrastructure. After 60,000 crores of rupees which have been given sanction, only 10,000 has already been spent and realized. Others are all in the process. Only this 10,000 crores has preview such a remarkable change in the infrastructure. But we have been seeing Kerala is through the normal development process it would have required something like 25 years before 60,000 crores would have been mobilized for this investment. We have encapsulated them into a period of five years so that within five years Kerala would have, say, stepped into a quarter of centuries of infrastructure development. So, this has been very remarkable and it has given visible impact upon the development. Now, the third is JEP, Pop Step and JEP and JEP is and that is the program we have placed for the people. Now, that infrastructure is the translational line, artificial electricity, industrial paths for investors to come back to us. We will have K-Form as super highway of internet owned by the state which is available to any service provider, equal treatment to everybody, nobody would have an advantage. And we are going to provide internet to everybody, it's a right of every individual, all the poor are getting going to get broadband connectivity free. And so, all this has provided a background for us to take the best picture. That is to say, we want to change the economic base of an economy. Our economic base is commercial crops which are in serious crisis because of opening up or labor intensive traditional industries, already polluting chemical industries and so on. Therefore, we realize now that industries which are of our core competence would be knowledge industries, service industries, skill based industries and so on. Now, how to make this paradigm shift from your traditional economic base to the new? So, we have a three prong action. One is, it is becoming popular to work from home. He's estimated 18, 1.8 billion persons who will be working from home in another five years. So, we have lost out on the race of IT industry. Our paths are very small and other petropolis in India has taken over. Well, we thought this appropriate time, he will step into the world global environment and say, we will skill our labor force according to the global demand and they will work from home. Anybody from the world can probably, employees can hire the educated unemployed persons who are in skill. This will have a tremendous impact upon women's supply. So, this is number one. Two, we are restructuring your higher education so that Kerala becomes an innovation society. The innovations will be transformed to startups. We are thinking of creating a big ecosystem for startups which will bring a new breed of end-up loads into Kerala. Third, we are willing for any investor to come and invest in Kerala. We guarantee them ease of doing business. Once there is an agreement, we will keep the agreement, we will direct them, we will give them incentives. So, in a period of another five years, our economic base would change. Now, that will create a new Kerala. See, in India, the paradigm of development, there are three models. One is Gujarat, I would say, who are very rapidly industrializing, but there is little welfare and social security people. They have fairly high poverty, illiteracy, ill will, and so on. Then there is this Kerala, where there is very little industry, but we have ensured everybody welfare. And of course, there is whole Bimaru states, but there is neither industry nor welfare. Now, this is the situation. Now, we want to create a Kerala which will assure every individual dignity of life and the security and welfare. At the same time, we will challenge Gujarat in other states. We will be growing even faster than them. And that will be very different. We are going to say, yes, it is possible to have redistribution, yet ensure the growth. And that's the matter. Within this framework, we are not a socialist country. We are part of Indian capitalism. But in this part, within the limitations, we shall design a society which will inspire the whole progressive thinking people in India. Yes, it is possible to build something different. That's the idea of Kerala. So the Kerala model 2.0 is hop, step, and jump. And the second term is jump. Well, one of the books you did for Leftward was Building Alternatives, which was about the Uralangal Labour Contract Cooperative Society. The reason I'm bringing this up is that a bridge was recently completed in Kerala. And I saw that the Chief Minister Pinaravijayan had tweeted about how this society was part of the construction of the bridge. The reason I'm thinking about this is, you're building infrastructure. But the labour practices involved in the building of the infrastructure should, I think, be emphasised as well. Here you have a cooperative society involved. Could you talk a little about that? It's true. See, I just gave you three plans, the welfare infrastructure, and the new enterprises that are going to come. Now in the welfare, which includes schools, healthcare, and so on, do you think participation is going to be key to ensure better service delivery and quality of services? For which we think to ensure participation, we need to have decent-lised democracy, decent-lised national democracy, decent-lised sessions that we have ensured. We have the most vibrant local governments. And therefore, this social intervention, collective intervention at local level, in providing better services, improving the productivity of small-scale industries and so on. It's a fact. That's fine. Second is, now the type of new enterprises that are going to come into Kerala, not to build infrastructure, but also new enterprises. I was told about startups, but we say startups are, we are going to be a stream with a whole lot of other social enterprises, let me put in that space. But corporates are going to play a very, very important role. Corporate is a play, two major roles. One is providing credit. Recently, we did a financial innovation again. We have a three-tire corporate society. Now we integrate the top two tires and then get got it as listed as a schedule plan. And this is the second largest schedule bank in Kerala. And I'm certain this is very soon going to be the largest bank in Kerala. And that gives us leverage to channelize funds into enterprises and so on. Secondly, the corporates are also going to provide a base for agro-processing industries, even say electronic or IT color teams and so on. Model is the society used for Kerala. Now, these are very embedded in the radical history of Kerala. The society came into being in the early 1920s as a partner social movement where some radical social thinkers, the workers, followers were ostracized by the community. And therefore they didn't give up. They decided they started a small credit society and then they started their workers' corporate team, which would undertake contract work. And they designed a democratic way of functioning. All the directors will have to go and work. And in the evening after the work, the director will meet and have a transfer system accounting and so on. So this society from 1920s was then a labor cooperative society. And why the people's planning came, we were looking around for models of social enterprise. And we found we can buy faster contractors having labor cooperative like this. And therefore this became the celebrated model. And many corporates like this came in. And this also gave this chance of property to diversify the group. And within another 20 years became the major enterprise, not just a contractor. They became a provider of models of this. Now they are developers. They develop institutions and so on. They have diversified into various ways. Something like Montregrin, we get the price. And the important thing is efficiency. Most modern technology, they adopted. And they can compete with any major Indian developer or contractor. Recently, this has got the major stretch of national highway from the central government competing with all others. So this is an important part, with experience. Then it is possible to promote social enterprises. We are not going to replace all private enterprises, but there will be a social sector, which will, I think, also give a sense of balance, give a traditional instrument for the progressive forces to intervene in the economic sphere. So recently, as you said, in a record time, in the past government, they built a bridge even before inauguration was falling apart. So we decided to rebuild it. And it was said, rebuilding would require one year, if it reduced to the 88 months, then they did it in a record period of five months. 500 workers working day and night. And constructing and replacing, demolishing and reconstructing is amazing architectural enterprise. So it just caught everybody's imagination, what this society did. So Chief Minister caught and brushed who built all the pyramids, who built the stags. That's right. That's one of Brex's best answers. Who builds the pyramids? Who puts up this? Who does that? Well, in Kerala, it seems to be these labor cooperative societies that are part of the fabric. Returning just briefly to the election, you're like the Poles. Everybody's anticipating the left democratic front will come back into power for another term, five-year term. What will this mean for the Congress front? What will this mean for the Bhartya Janta Party? They are in power in Delhi after all. What is this going to mean for them if in 36 million people Kerala decide to reject the Congress and the BJP? All right. See, politics has been polarized between the left and not so right. The right in Kerala cannot be right outside Kerala. Nobody can say against higher wages or against public education, public health, and so on. So the whole ideologically broad hegemony power, the left has left this imprint upon the right house. But power ordinates between the two. Now, it will be the first time that really the left is going to be back in power for two consecutive terms. The main reason has been, I'm telling you, the performance improvement, the way we dealt with the crisis, ensured welfare, and then brought in this infrastructure revolution and putting forward an agenda. The main jump is going to come and everybody wants a new Kerala. So we are going to be back in power. What are the implications? The right, the Congress coalition has been taking a strange step. They have been telling the minorities in Kerala who come to be around 50 percent of the population. You defeat us. How rank at five is going to be BJP. Therefore, stick to the old pattern of power. In fact, this may look silly, but the very important political move trying to tell the electorate that if you want to keep Kerala free of BJP, you should elect us, because otherwise our rank at five will desert. But I don't buy that. For the simple reason, of course, there will be a rush into BJP for the right, but from Congress particularly. But I don't think Congress will be disemminated in Kerala. For a simple reason, Kerala ethos is secular. Now, our renaissance in the 90s, starting in the 19th century, he has this little reverabilism. It is, in fact, a reinterpretation of the tradition, promissory interpretation of the tradition. And the greatest ideal of Kerala renaissance is a victim by one of the sages, Srinagarana Guru, who said it doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you're a good human being. This is ingrained in the thinking of everybody. And therefore, somebody from, from North India, coming into Kerala and say, if you want to be a good human being, you have to be a Hindu, he just does not run in Kerala. Nobody accepts that. That's why, despite the fact, RSS has always had one of the strongest units in Kerala. There are percentages in RSS, we have said proportion to population, the highest in the country. They have never received mass support. And even the social composition of Kerala, which is half minority, BJP is not even going to be the main opposition, never in Kerala. Okay, let me put it that very fact. But a defeat of coalition, Congress coalition, do weaken them, which would mean Kerala is going to have no just next five years, I think, more five years in the future, unless it does something very bad, very bad. Otherwise, that is what the logic of politics do. That gives us an opportunity, an opportunity of really designing a more democratic participatory and society, which at the same time ensures decent employment and growth. And I think that will be something fantastic. And that is to say, the Indian, there has been erosion of strength of the left in India in the last two decades. If you look at the history, the 50s, 60s, 70s you have seen, it is the left which gained at the expense of the decline of the Congress. But from the late 70s, what has happened is Congress continued to decline, but now it's the right, far right, which is meeting advantage of. But there are new shoots we can see in various parts of the country, states in the small elections and so on, which gives some hope. So, Kerala would be the left pasture, left base, from which we have much hope. There is a, you know, a great book, what is the book by Victor Fick, which has a title, which has always attracted Kerala the Yanan of India. So, I would say, yeah, there has been waiting of left in India, but we will provide the Yanan base. I think Kerala project, democratic project, has something very important for Indian left. Thomas Isaac, I have to say firstly, good luck in the election, good luck to you, good luck to the left democratic front, good luck to the Communist Party of India Marxist, but more than anything, good luck to the people of Kerala. They're going into an interesting election and I hope it will be a safe and reasonable rational outcome. I hope you get time to rest. Thanks so much for being with us at People's Dispatch and Globetrotter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in Alipi, I'm in charge of the election in the Alipi district and and everybody is waiting for the election day. I think some history is going to be made in death will be back in 1510s, which is the far-reaching implications for not only Kerala's development, but also for rest of the country. That's amazing, thanks a lot. Thank you.