 All right, welcome to the Jenkins documentation special interest group office hours the 18th of January. Proposed topics pull request progress contributors summit proposal called an outline. Jenkins in Google summer of code and Jenkins wiki plan anything else Meg that you'd like to put on the list. If, if you're me, I'd like to talk about some sort of doc, do a publicizing the doc in this meeting for people who haven't contributed before. Okay, diversity council to take. We can encouraging, encouraging new contributors. I like that. I think it's usually underserved communities shall we say is that the proper term I think. Yeah, good. Good. Okay. That's our hook. I like that. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. All right, anything else to put on the agenda. Nope. Okay, then let's go ahead and run through it. So first item pull request progress. I made no progress in the last week on the scaling Jenkins on Kubernetes pull request. I did talk to Kristen whetstone about it and she's agreed to help me next week to diagnose whatever my problems are. So, okay. Kristen and Mark met last week. Kristen is willing to help the coach when Mark has time. Well, great. Encouraging new contributors let's take the topic. So, go ahead. Oh, okay, I'm trying to see what you're typing there. So, so Zina of our Google summer of our Google season of docs contributor is a good example of coming from an underserved community. Okay. She is she is a Nigerian woman who is also a leader in the in the coding community there in Nigeria. And so it's, it's good and it reminds it there are several things I learned from doing that. One was okay so Zina is a Nigerian writer developer and writer. And she works in a tech company there. Google summer of our season of docs. So, Zina is a great writer for us so she wrote for us for three months, Google paid her, and she still continued we meet with her every Thursday. Huh. So, but there were some complexities there that that as we try to approach this one was, we learned that that internet is not always on and is not always high speed. Right. So what that meant was we switched switched off video pure screen sharing and accepted that sometimes she was dialing in from a phone. Now I don't know what it means to join from a phone or from another device if she's calling internationally if that means she's incurring extra charges or whatnot. It was, but she was willing to do that and it seemed to work okay. So we took and notes were important and recording the, the call, the meeting was extra important. Indeed. And the other thing we learned was that times on matters. Right, because it had to be after her work in Nigeria her working day in Nigeria. But within waking hours for mentors. What time did that end up being for morning morning my time so it was about what I had hard to translate at UTC is a battle. It was about 10 o'clock am Pacific. Okay. So let's do it this way it was 11 am Denver. Okay, yeah that's. Yeah, my time so use. Now how did she get involved how does she get to see find you guys and look for you or. So, Google season of docs is a highly promoted program, promoted by by Google but it's, it has, it has a challenge in that it's a limited set of potential contributors right right. Right. So, Project could only take on one, and they only they only awarded 50 projects worldwide. So we were Jenkins was one of 50 and this was our first year doing it. Right. And what I'm thinking of, I mean let's face it part of it is, I'm banking off you being you, you know, anybody who shows up here is going to get the sort of that somebody new needs to get to get includes. So to me it's a matter of publicizing and because I can see this as being a starter drug for somebody who might want to contribute software rather than docs. Yes, you know it's sort of like, anybody could come in and, you know, replace a comma with a period or fix it you know there's a lot of trivial stuff that anybody could do with docs. And Vlad is on beyond zebra. And caliber people like that are certainly always welcome to. But that's what I was thinking of this as sort of a starter drug as a way just to open up the jake because I've dealt with a couple of other like boy that open stack community. That was not for the faint of heart. That was a blood sport. Okay, so so there are places where it is challenging to contribute even documentation changes. It's, it's challenging just to deal with the people to have, you know, the Jenkins world is just inordinately nice people. And nobody's going to get called an ignorant slut because they don't know something. The open, the open stack world. And I like these people I love the technology I actually said the fun, but they led with the assumption that you were an idiot that we're going to just going to screw things up. And try to prove that you weren't. But even then you know it was a constant challenge it was that sort of, you know those people. Right. Okay. So it's sort of a way to say come on and it's like you guys did it used to do it Jenkins world kind of, you know, come in and do something. Right around and if you're really interested what else would you like to do you know, I figure we'll get, if we're lucky 50% of the people who come in, you know they'll come in and they'll do a couple of things and they'll go okay that was fun for my resume and they'll move on. If we could 50 or even 25% of them decide to hang around and contribute. That's a big boon for us. Good. Yeah, so actually a big boon for cloudbies because we do a lot of hiring out of contributors to open source right. We do. That's correct. Yeah, so how about let's, I'm going to put some links to some, some good suggestions so what there is in in the documentation there are the documentation issue list. There's this concept of a good first issue. And right now we have 13 of those that are open. Okay. And these are these are prime candidates for what, what would be called simple fixes. Right. Right. Good first issues. Uh huh. Good. Okay. So how would we, so what I'm thinking is I'm, I was thinking about posting we've got a slack channel the diversity people to put this up as a, because I'd like to let them do as much of the publicities we can get them to do right. And I'm, I'm being maybe the best thing I can think is that we announce on a certain day we're having a special docs office hours that is targeted for first time contributors. And we can walk through everybody's got to they fork and clone I guess but they've got to download the repo they've got to see the structure of it. You know, see how they find open issues. Or what they, you know, just kind of I'm sure you know I haven't I actually probably should do that too. I've never downloaded this stuff. Well, but, but one of the nice things about about this kind of about this particular environment is many of these can be done. Many of these good first issues can be done without ever cloning the repository locally. Oh, and so it's, oh yeah this thing, I can follow the steps on this page, and it will show me, okay I can do this and I can do it from inside GitHub. Don't even have to clone locally. So, okay. Right. And those kinds of things are are that's why they're good first issues now. One of the other things that we probably need though is we likely need to identify, need to identify more good first issues because in the past we've been in danger of exhausting our supply of good first issues, so we needed to get additional good first issues. Now, Jonathan used a great technique, and Daniel Beck reminded me that we need more of this. We have lots and lots of wiki transformation steps that need to be done. Now wiki transformation is not a simple it's the, the easy ones are largely done. It's not as trivial as just transform it, it's you've actually got to write the documentation, using the wiki as a good source of information. But as part of this wiki plan here, one of the, one of the things we need to do is eventually replace wiki.jankins.io with content that's on the Jenkins site. Right. So, so it's, it's a good one where good first issues wiki transformation is one of them that identify topics. Now, another thing that Daniel Beck suggested, or that came to my mind as Daniel and I were talking about the state of the documentation is it would be good to have an overview or a, an inventory of wiki content and assign pages to destinations on Jenkins.io. But one of the, one of the challenges is we need experts who can look at a page. Let's choose an arbitrary page. Actually, let's go even one worse we're going to choose a page that is, we're going to choose a high frequency pay Oh, I know where I can find one. Hang on, I can find it like this. The Jenkins wiki exporter has in it, a list of top URLs. Here we go. These are the most frequently accessed URLs so here's a fascinating one parameterized build and we've we've received quite a number of requests for more information on how do you parameterize a build, but in this case this page talks about freestyle projects what we need is more information on pipeline project parameterization and strengths and weaknesses of that and so, so what we would do is we need somebody who can look through these things and say, Hey, this page should map into something that is here and needs to be expanded to include not just freestyle parameters but pipeline parameters. Right. So it's, but that kind of inventory process that needs somebody skill a you a me or a Vlad to look at it and say, Okay, I've read this page and I think it's like this. Now, there is a sheet that we've been using. And this one. Yes, the wiki conversion progress page that Jonathan and I have used to track what we're doing with those those pages so here is here is here is a beginning of an inventory of wiki pages it's only 150 pages but it is 150 pages. Right. Yeah, so for instance this one I think is already done. If I look at that. No, it's not I thought we got this one done. Okay. Maybe is there an open PR maybe or there is there is not so that's a that's an easy one so so one of the niceties of this particular sheet is it took the access count values that I was showing some time, a page or two ago, and sorts by them. So the hot pages are at the top. Yes. And, and the hot pages parameter defaults option for instance, this is another example of. Oh, that's more information about parameters. This parameter default. Oh, this is a plugin document so that's, that's a different thing but it requires somebody to read each of these and and recommend what the action is for that thing. Right. Okay, so. Sorry, I've been blathering on quite a bit. It's fabulous because this is exactly what I need I have just the vagates notion of this. Well, and let me let me put links to these, these, these information sources see the wiki progress sheet for current efforts. And this is also in old copy older cut notes from this meeting, because Jonathan reviewed them with us, but, but it's, it's a really healthy thing to avoid duplicating when we've already got it. Right, exactly. So inventory the wiki content. I'm pages to destinations. Yeah, or and so. It's really create issues and assign pages to destinations. And that's what Jonathan did when he got us ready for October fest back in October is he did exactly that he took the list of pages and read each one and said I think this goes here and I think this goes here. That's probably for beginners. I mean, you don't know who comes in how much beginner they are. But that's probably something that they need to be told this that this page needs to be rewritten and. Yeah, well, well see and just thinking about one of my worries here is that many of these pages need need until someone has done this initial triage this initial review. And they risk doing more harm than good if they attempt to transform it, right, because many of them will take the wiki exporter, and we'll say oh all I have to do is run the Jenkins wiki exporter, and that will give me a copy of the page, but the page is in no direction to be placed directly into into Jenkins that I oh right it's it's it may be 10 years old it may be full of inaccuracies it may be it will certainly have lots of uses of the words master and slave and exactly right it will use the deprecated terminology and and it's terribly inefficient for us to insert corrections to those after they've started the pull request, much better if we can say it in the pull request you need to make this change and this change. Okay, let's see what so where we're here. So now, now this is sort of maybe what we talked about here is what kinds of projects might suit these new contributors, and I'd lobby that there's, there's more there are several right so let's talk about possible new good first projects are good first tasks might be wiki conversion, but I think even better than wiki conversion is plug in documentation conversion from wiki to get up. Uh huh. And that one is it's kind of still come here it is that's this project plug in migration where we've got, we've now completed the migration to documentation is code for 600 plugins, but we have over 1000 still to do. Right. So, so what would. Yeah, so when and so this probably comes. I mean this is a multi stage thing right. But I'm actually thinking we might ask when I tell, you know, tell people that everybody is welcome but asked them to fill out a form ahead of time. So that a we have an idea of how many people but I'm there we can ask them what their experiences both with Jenkins and with tech writing and anything that they're particularly interested in. Or something like that, you know, so that so that we can prepare, you know, and it might be you get you get somebody who's, you know, terribly interested in plugins and you know so we know. So what I'm doing and we have our long sessions but so the first session let's what's the reason what if we had five to 10 people who show and of course if we got 50 people applying we might. That might change things but let's say that would also how many we're going to have. So let's say we had five to 10 people show up. They could go through it each do one of these trivial things that they could do through the. Through the GitHub editor. Right. And then we could talk about other stuff and then we could have another session where we start out with how they, because they're not going to want to do too much that if they're going to be serious here they need to fork and clone right. And we could have another session where we start out will fork and clone, and then start assigning you know, you know, we could, and we can show the existing issues that are up there and talk about this, you know, or groups of things, and let people volunteer for what they want and each one gets an assignment right. Right. And then we, and then after those two though we sort of go back into normal doc office hours right that each week they come and what they've done and what they need and and in reviewing the PR is what we see that's not clear, etc. And with any luck we build up a little community here I don't know if that'll work that may be too much domestic. It could happen. Yeah. Yeah, so first one to two sessions of office hours focused on tutorials, right, tutorial on personal touring. Yeah, of new contributors. And then after those initial tutorial initial tutoring sessions, invite them back. Right, because I think for me I mean I still have I keep wanting to contribute and I don't get. This is a huge barrier just to get everything set up right. You know, and then once I mean I'm an experienced writer once everything set up, then you can get in and have fun. But that would, that's, you know, and if somebody's over your show say now everybody, everybody fork and everybody clone. And now look at what we've got. And here's how it's, you know, and once you know that then it's good. Yeah, that's very good. So now, now it's an, there's an interesting challenge hiding there here. And as an example of a complexity of getting started. Xenob had had significant challenges. Starting development, because she was on windows. And the windows environment setup is not straightforward. Right. I think it was that Mark, or let's see Oleg runs windows, windows and uses WSL to or Jenkins.io dev. But Xenob could not run had an older windows version that can't run W to WSL to. And, and I, I understand that right that's, that's, and so what she did Xenob solution was a virtual machine running Linux. And, and all she had to do was find that solution and it ran now runs on our windows computer just fine it just happens to be a virtual machine inside her windows computer. Right. I was thinking more of getting some underserved American get Africa. I know a few years ago I was involved with friends who were in Ethiopia who were trying to get computers up there and I was bitching because they were giving them all windows, not linux. They were allowed to put Linux, the students were not allowed to use they were this was a bunch of students actually, and the university did not allow anything but windows. The government did not allow anything but windows for that it was a very flaky and, you know, interesting choice. It was a brittle. It was a brittle infrastructure. Yeah, that sounds brutal. Yeah. And they their response to a brittle infrastructure was to make sure everybody was running roughly the same things. And of course nobody can afford new computers so they're all getting old computers so. And correctly they're grateful to have any computer, right and older. So in some of these computers some of these environments that they might say hey I need to develop on a Raspberry Pi. Right. Okay, and what could we do if we wanted to develop on a Raspberry Pi here are the steps you might take that might be a good one to consider actually that it you know what and this is good to because the first session. It doesn't matter if they're going to go to GitHub and use the GitHub editor right. The issues go away for that right. So that's the first session and then we find out, let's say we get 10 people and five of them are running windows in Africa. We have a separate session to get them set up, and then we have another session for people who are running windows elsewhere or Linux, you know, whatever. We see what we've got and we might you know we might have targeted sessions for the next one. Right. And I don't know how to reach these underserved communities because one of the challenges is that they are in fact difficult to reach right it's, I don't know how to find the people in, in many of these places where you might be interested in helping, but it has to fit between your work day and your family and all the other complexities. Right. Unless you work for a company that will let you do this as part of your job that's a possibility to my, my sort of and that's where I was thinking that our diversity council might be able to help us. Okay. I'm thinking for starters, I assume we have the names of people who attended some of those sessions at DevOps world. Frankly, disappointed me because it was all this talk about yes, you know, the big bad white men treats you badly we all know this, you're not alone it's not you. End of story, you know, and it was like, you're a DevOps world I wanted something to know a man actually for this year we can do this if this work say, you know, if you'd like to get involved here's some things you can do where we guarantee it will be safe. Something like that. And that's why we should bug Alyssa because this is, you know, I thought they should have said that then you know the office I mean, they could go ahead, speak. Sorry, we have we have several upcoming events just like this. So we've got FOS them and the CI CD dev room. And it's sponsored by Olivia very neat. Okay, and we could ask invite him to see if it would be allowed to do a brief pitch we've got. I believe it's June has CV con by the continuous delivery foundation is this as a conference as well. And I'm speaking at at star East the software testing conference in April, can plug can invite people to assist with Jenkins at the end of my talk. Right. Now, I don't know who we would, who would we would ask for the attendee list. I'm not sure they're be willing to share it but it's seems good like a good idea to ask. Right. And I mean we don't want to be exclusionary there are there are nerdy white men out there. We'll take, we'll take, we'll take outgoing gregarious people too. Right. I mean, I'm thinking that the outgoing gregarious are less intimidated, you know, but you can't tell. It's sort of I just I see it as a general call but making sure that it gets to people that we know are floating around in these other groups. Okay, okay, so we've got this well what I'm sort of thing is, when I'm going to ping, if you are you can but since I could do something here I don't do much. I'm going to go to the diversity council and say what we were talking about. And, you know that we needed help, you know defining and publicizing this to you know give them a high level. If they thought it was interesting and then maybe we talked to them and then we can start moving forward on plans. Right. I like that. I think that's largely, you know, targeted on getting Sasha who is his heart's in the right place but when he goes to hire an exec he seems to like white men. So I think that's a lot of their energy right now you know, and, and you know hiring is great but this is a way to bring more people into the fold right. Right. Sure. And we will you know, and the good ones will eventually hire but. Okay. Do you have a plan. It does I like that. This is I love it because I had just the Vegas notion and you of course took off and made it a wonderful plan. Why we love you. That's very kind of you. Thanks. Okay, anything else on on the on the community outreach. I think that's a start. Okay, great. And we'll, we'll keep it on the agenda and plan to talk with it talk to it each time we meet as we make progress. Yeah, okay. Great. All right, next topic on my list was this contributor summit proposal outline so as part of FOSDOM, we've traditionally when when FOSDOM was a face to face event. We use FOSDOM as a way to also ask the contributors to Jenkins who are going to FOSDOM become a day early, and to join us for a contributor summit all day long. FOSDOM is virtual only. It's online only. But we'd like to roughly two one to two weeks after FOSDOM do something similar but as a Jenkins contributor summit online. So virtual. Yes. And the idea there is that what I've been discussing with others is we take an initial live 90 to 60 to 90 minute contributor meeting. So this is the launch meeting right. In it, Oleg gives us a project overview or somebody from the governance board, each special interest group highlights interesting things from theirs. And then we use that to collect the interest of the people attending. And then assign them to various to, if you call them subgroups. And then subgroups have a lead that finds a workable time for the members because of course when we were all sitting together in Belgium. The time is pretty easy now that we aren't we've got people in India people on the West Coast of the US people in Japan people in on the East Coast in the US people in Europe people in Africa. And so find find a workable time for the members to meet for one hour. And they, they meet together and then that's that are these themed sessions. And, and the theme sessions work on their topic. This is not unrelated to our other top other discussion is it. No, right. It's well, it would be, I would be surprised if someone who is not already part of the community found this to be especially effective they probably won't because they're likely going to drop into a session that is filled with experts, or that has several very expert people and they'll tend to be a little intimidated. Oh, I'm not an expert yet. And so I'm not sure that this is a great first time contributor experience they're welcome to attend but first time contributors can be easily dissuaded from contributing by feeling like they're in a room of geniuses. But very, there's a lot of very serious senior engineers out there. I'd be new to Jenkins, who would probably be put off by the Dick and Jane, check out a repo. Right, correct. And, and those kind of people are certainly welcome and would be, we would be delighted to welcome them to these, these sessions. If we got enough and then, like, these project groups to that would be so there we could get a wiki project group, for instance. Right, exactly well and I would that when I'm prone to put it underneath the docs, the docs group. Yes, docs docs is going to handle our wiki migration and wiki migration is a real thing and we want to do it we think it's going to take multiple years to get that content off there. Into places where it's better. Right. We have wiki migration we have plug in migration, right terminology change now see the terminology changes are better for lightweight people right. Very good yes actually that's a very good example terminology changes are a really great place for someone to say hey I'd like to contribute in this area here's what I'm going to do yeah good example. Let's put that on our notes there of good first task include terminology fixes and the documentation terminology fixes even are because we we've made the controller chain changes master to controller. It's saved to agent. White list to a lot to context to clear phrase raising or allow list and usually it's right it is a clear phrase blacklist likewise is usually clear phrase or deny list. The first one by the way is Jenkins master to Jenkins controller. Right, also GitHub master point right. Yeah, very good yep. And then because that it's just in the text it's easy but then there's the next step. There's a lot of screenshots. Right, right good point terminology fixes. And this is text screenshots. Translations. And more. Right. Good. Okay. I don't yeah I don't have the deed, but it's like, that's the model, even if a part we might do something separate but it's a similar month maybe it's a similar model right. Yes, we're talking about. There's many things here that need to go on so. Yeah, okay good. Cool. Okay, when is fast. When is this session plan what's the date of it. So this is approximately, let's see, I can look it up now at just a minute. So there is Saturday and Sunday, the sixth and seventh of February and I'm envisioning two weeks thereafter so likely so late 16th, 17th and 18th, so February 16 through 18 or February 23 through 25. Okay. So then we wouldn't want to try to, if we did anything, the earliest we'd want to try to do it would be late March or April I'm thinking right. Do do what the previous stuff that we were talking about for just the doc stuff. Yeah I'm assuming well I'm assuming we'll need March, we'll need until March or April to get the promotion plan in place to be sure we're going to do this. It won't be much fun if we announced this thing and nobody is there. Right, right. Or if we don't plan enough so we have lots of people and we're sitting there going um um um. Yeah, right. Exactly. Well it would be good if we had it scheduled by Fosdom then too because if nothing else you could mention it there. You know, if, if there's too many people if you're getting scared by all the big words, you know, don't fret, you know, pick up what you can and then we've got this other session that's planned just for newbies. Oh, and you've got Damien, because I remember Damien was big on Fosdom. Yes, yeah Damien and Olivier both are are just absolutely wonderful for Fosdom. They are. Great. Okay. So anything else on contributor summit. That looks marvelous to me. Okay yeah so I'll be sending that art to send the announcement, the draft. Within the next one to two days. And, um, tangent here. Do we, is there a place for OLAG to also have coming out I mean, I was thinking we could be a starter drug in docs and if people were really interested in doing more software we could push them on from there. But maybe OLAG wants to do a Dick and Jane contribute. There's all the stuff about testing that we talk about if you're, if you don't have something big to contribute as new code, you know, but testing existing stuff is a good starter point for it. Right, right. Well, well, and, and certainly we've got, we've got very, very precious so precious time now for contributors because the Jenkins March release. The March LTS release needs more testers and more developers. This is the, the transit the UI transition from tables from HTML table layout, table based layout to HTML div. And that transition is significant. It's now it's a thing of beauty. But here, let me show you, you know, if I take just a minute to show what it looks like. Okay, so here is, here is the Jenkins server running latest long term support release. And we're going to go. Okay, so we're going to make this larger. And we're going to go edit the job definition of the get plugins. Yeah, why not that's good. This job definition if I do configure right here. And we wait patiently while it loads. Okay, so notice the layout on the screen here. Okay, remembering remembering this layout. This is a very old familiar one I've seen. Right, so now we're going to go to the new version. Okay, and so here we're going to look at. Whoops, let's see. Yeah, we wanted the multi branch. Therefore, we'll take this one. Okay, and we're going to go configure here. Now, if you look here you'll see alright. Notice how the page is sort of centered here. And broader here. Notice that things, the layout here is starting to get wide and now if I make this page smaller. Let's see if I made my screen. I need a little program just a minute so if I made my screen as though I were running on. Come on Sizer. Here we go I were running on a 1024 by 768 screen. Okay, things. Well, so this is this is the old UI and we haven't we aren't. It's it's not terrible. Oh well, except, oh dear, look at this here's one example. Okay, things starting to spill. And the spill is or, or you see right here all branches get the same properties is spilling beyond boundaries. Right, we've got some you eyes where when I get to that point it gets terrible and dramatic how bad it is. It really is quite difficult to administer a Jenkins server from a screen that is this narrow that's only one K wide. It just all stays here. It just all stays ever so nicely in bounds it just looks good. Things that notice the little dashed lines over here. It just lays out very very this is a result of this tables to do UI transformation but of course, guess what that means screenshots will need to be updated. That means that means that we've got some plugins that many plugins actually that need their need to be extended to support this new way of doing the UI. And so, so there are lots of things that need to be checked to be sure that Oh does this work the way I expected to work with this new release of Jenkins. Right. And now I tell you it's a much prettier UI in terms of, well, just just right here top of the page. Notice that the help icon is outside of the frame. But here, it's inside. It just, it, it looks right here, whereas here it's. Oh well that's sort of sort of sort of looks like the 1990s. Yeah. And so these kinds of things are, are we going so far does this run on your Android or iPhone. It, it, it certainly will display on a phone. Absolutely. And, and it actually fits quite well on the night on a phone so if I, if I shrink this thing down to the usual 800 by 600 that is a phone. Yeah, it still fits. And I can still work with it and still use it whereas when I do it here. Oh my it has, it has exploded and notice I've got a horizontal scroll bar and I've got to do all sorts of horrible things in order to interact with this Oh in order to click this button I had to move to the right. Yes. So, so yes, tables to divs is a big deal. And it's a great help but we need, we need a lot of testing, developing, etc. And within the next, it'll be about two weeks from now that we will choose the base version for the March and then in March we will ship it. And so we very much need people to be helping us now. Yes, with with getting ready for it so so that's one of the things that on this hey promoting, we need. We need need more hands, helping us test and fix UI issues in the table to do change. And then we need the documentation screenshots to reflect right. Are we reviewing the context sensitive help while we're at it too. I don't think that's been a key focus, but certainly there's no reason it can't be done when visiting a plugin right now I think the first focus is assure that the UI layout is not completely broken. You know, it was not badly damaged. Yeah, and that way I might be part of the testing Joe man I don't think it's all that bad I noticed some of a couple of times as I go around every once in a while I find in context sensitive help it's not really helpful. Yeah, so just to show what you want to in here and it's like well could you give me a hint. Right exactly. Yeah, so as to give a to give a taste of what it means to use new new screenshots in the documentation I found it delightful to do the get plugin documentation with the new screenshots because look at at how it lays out. Notice that. Okay, this is a much more comprehensible layout. And guess what I don't have to do an awful lot of painful trimming cutting and pasting right to make it look like it looks okay it just looks good. Even at even at smaller resolution so okay I'm reading it on my phone. Guess what it's still workable. Yeah. So, so, so it is the new UI really is wonderful in terms of the new the UI improvements are really great for users, but we've got that we need hands to help us be sure that we've got it ready. And here I'll embed that link so that global configuration is a great choice of one that shows that really well. But it also means I think traditionally we haven't cared that much about front end developers for Jenkins most of the actions been in back end stuff. Right. So this is a time to really appeal to front end type people. Well, and, and it's, it's in this case, the I think the precious thing we need right now actually oddly enough is not as much front end. This particular needs people are willing to work on a Jenkins plug in. Right. Okay. And so it means we need Java developers who are willing to Jenkins plug in developers who are willing to modify jelly files and modify the Jenkins UI files for tables to divs. Okay. And, and that's, that's a little different right that's, I'm developing in Java code but it's actually not Java code it looks much more like HTML than it does Java. Right. So now are we promoting this stage of the people who went to dev because Fosdum is tended to be a more of a European thing right. And more I think more Americans came to dev to Jenkins world because it was in the United States right. But now that it's online it doesn't, not all is bad with COVID. Right, right. Yeah, so how are we promoting. I mean, because if we only promote this to our existing developers. We're not making a lot of progress right we need to bring in, we need fresh blood. Right actually you've got a good point and one of the things that that we might, I wonder if we ought to. We include this in a Google summer of code. Office hours. I'll have to discuss mark discuss with Cara, the Lamarck and Oleg. The challenge is most Google summer of code really is by its nature, Java in Jenkins right and that's, that's, that's the high value thing that's the algorithmic thing that's the place where lots of challenges are and so having to spend a lot of time in this tables that is code doesn't serve them well as an applicant to Google summer of code, because they need to be in the Java code, not so much in the UI code. But let me discuss that with them and see. But gee, I wonder if some of this should we be promoting it on like some of the job sites and. Yeah, they would I would expect would demand money, and I, I'm not sure. No, I'm thinking of something else. I'm thinking of new graduates, etc, people who are actually looking for jobs that here is a place to get some skills that might help you get the job. Oh, I see. Okay, so I think we suspect that we have that that's a big part of our argument for the CGE certification that a lot of those are people who are on the job market one way or another. Oh, okay, they're looking to boost their resume. This is probably more valuable than certification actually they'll get real experience they'll get to know people. And we can't tell them. But if you're out here and doing good work, you're going to get recruited. That's a good, good point. Yeah, that's a, that's a good suggestion. Okay, very good. Yep. Excellent. So Meg, I apologize. I'm running out of time. Are there crucial things that crucial other things that you and I need to get on to the to be sure we discuss today. I don't think so I think this is the wiki plan what else is on the list if we I don't think there's anything else that. Yeah, there is. Now we did it. Are you still there. I do play with them now, go play with them. You'll probably have a lot more fun than I'll have making my mother set up her new computer. All right. So the recording will be posted probably within 24 hours. Thanks very much. Okay, and I will go ahead and post to the diversity council right. Yes, please discussions. Absolutely. Okay, fabulous. Bye.