 Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners. Thanks to all of you, including Jeffrey Zilks, Tony Glass, and Phillip Les. Coming up on DTNS, Dave Hamilton joins us to convince you to get Wi-Fi 6E routers, even if you don't have any Wi-Fi 6E devices. And I think he's right. Plus the new Apple iPads and live stream shopping keeps trying to make you love it. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. From New York City, I'm IS Aktar. I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. Man, I wish we would have sent Roger to Chicago. Then we would have had all three major cities across the U.S. Joining us, host of the Mac Geek GAB podcast, Dave Hamilton. How's it going? It goes. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for being with us. I can't wait to talk routers. Wi-Fi 6E, a little backhaul. If you're into backhaul, folks, we got something special for you. Let's start with a few tech things you should know with the quick hits. The U.K.'s competition and markets authority has affirmed its November 2021 decision to order Meta to sell Giffy. The review concluded that Meta could potentially increase its market power by denying or limiting other social media platforms access to Giffy, GIFs, or videos, and push people to Meta-owned sites, which already account for up to 73% of time spent on social media in the U.K. Meta said it will not appeal the decision. It's just given up. Sony announced that it will release its DualSense Edge PS5 controller globally on January 26th. It will sell for about 240 euros in the EU and around $200 in the U.S. The new PS5 controller includes button remapping and other customizations like stick sensitivity and swappable components. Priors begin October 25th. Google TV is adding some family-focused features like parent-controlled watch lists and algorithmically-generated suggestions for kids' profiles. Parents will be able to add titles to a child's must-watch list, and parents can define rating levels and add and remove titles to affect what gets recommended by the algorithm. The features will show up first on the Chromecast with Google TV, followed by other Google TV-powered devices. At Adobe Max 2022, the company announced that Photoshop for the desktop, iPad, and web are getting improved image editing, including improvements to automated object selections, content to where it fills, file sharing collaboration, and content crediting. The new Share for Review feature in beta lets you share a copied version of work with a web link for clients and coworkers to comment on without needing the master file or even needing a Creative Cloud subscription. Comments will sync across devices. Wait, they're not going to make me pay? I'm so sure about this. First one's free. FedEx announced the end of the road for its test of the ROXO Last Mile Autonomous Delivery Robot. ROXO-R-O-X-O will no longer have a chance to be a FedEx employee. Just weeks after Amazon announced the end of its field test for the Scout delivery robot, FedEx Chief Transformation Officer Sriram Krishnasamy reportedly broke the news to staff last week, saying, although we are ending the research and development efforts, ROXO served a valuable purpose to rapidly advance our understanding and use of robotic technology. Which is true, FedEx isn't given up on robots. They just didn't find that ROXO was going to be beneficial in the near term. They still have an internal project called Drive that is researching lots of delivery technology. Alright, let's talk a little bit about Apple having an announcement today. But it did a few other things before we get to that. It restored two apps from Russia's VK after removing them three weeks ago. Apps from VK were polled because the company had links to Russian banks sanctioned by the UK. But as of Monday, social network Vkontakte and webmailservicemail.ru are back in the Apple App Store. Just those two, not all the apps that got polled and it's unclear why those two apps were restored. Apple also granted my wish that it just send out press releases with specs instead of making us watch an hour or more of video when they announce new products. Thank you, Apple. Let's talk about what they launched. Ayaz? There's a new 10th generation iPad. It has a 10.9 inch screen. It runs on an A14 Bionic chip and it looks a lot more like the Air and Pro models. The new iPad no longer has a home button so they move the fingerprint reader to the power button. This iPad is the first to have its front-facing camera on the landscape edge. Lightning is out. The 10th generation iPad uses USB-C for charging and connecting. But it doesn't work with the second-gen Apple pencil. You still need the first-gen pencil which is charged using a lightning connector so you're going to need a dongle for that pencil. Yay. The new 10.9 inch iPad starts at 449 pre-orders are open now with shipping starting on October 26th. There's also a new Magic Keyboard Folio case to go with the new iPad. That folio costs $249. At least they're including the dongle with the pencil now if you buy the old pencil. Next up are two new iPad Pro models running on the M2 processor, the same one available in the MacBook Air. And the new iPad Pro screen can detect the Apple pencil, second-gen, within 12 millimeters of the surface to allow for better precision and do things like, you know, expand a text box or another user interface element as the pen approaches the screen. Also comes with Wi-Fi 6E. That'll play into our later conversation. The 11-inch iPad Pro starts at $799. 12-inch model starts at $1,099. Both available for pre-order now shipping October 26th. And we have one more product or line of products. Something like that. There are two refreshed Apple TV 4K models, both have support for HDR10+, if you have a TV that also supports that. They run on the A15 processor. The included remote now charges by USB-C instead of lightning. Another USB-C. The 64 gigabyte Wi-Fi only model costs $129. And the 128 gigabyte with Ethernet model costs $149. They are available for pre-order now and start shipping on November 3rd. If you've got an Apple TV but want that USB-C remote, you can buy it separately for around $60. It's arriving this week. And finally, Apple announced that Mac OS Ventura and iPad OS 16 will release on October 24th. Now Dave, as someone who started Mac Observer and does the MacGab podcast, I imagine you were paying attention to these announcements. What struck you the most? Well, a lot of things struck me about these. This new, the colorful iPad 10th Gen, we'll call it the entry-level iPad, although with the price bump that it saw by about $150, I don't know how entry-level it is anymore. Like you mentioned, guys, the FaceTime camera moving to landscape mode, I think there were a lot of people cheering about that. That, to me, makes a huge difference. It's weird, understandable from a supply chain standpoint, but still weird that the new iPad Pro that came out still has the camera on the short edge, aka the portrait edge, but I think we're seeing the future telegraphed will get there eventually. Odd though that in reverse, the new iPad Pros gets Wi-Fi 6E, the new iPads, brand new design, 10th Gen, Wi-Fi 6. Yeah, and as I understand it, that wouldn't be necessarily hardware reliant, right? Oh, no, that's hardware because it's the Wi-Fi 6E. Okay, yeah, you do need the chip. You have to have the other chip. I guess what I'm trying to say is that seems like it wouldn't be as big of a deal as a whole new frame for the landscape. Unless they already had all those chips ordered, right? I think this is all supply chain driven. It's a way to get rid of all the Wi-Fi 6E, not E chips by putting them into the iPad. That makes sense. You're right. I did suggest on Twitter that we do a GoFundMe to buy up all of the frames so we can force them to use landscape in the future. But yeah, I agree the entry level iPad is now a higher step of entry at that price, but I think people are happy to finally see it stepping up in those features, right? Agreed, yeah, for sure. No, I'm excited about that. But I live in this world. I buy things a little bit without worrying about the price and it's the thing I have to test because of my job. I have a weird relationship with Apple and their prices. I realize I say that and admit that I lead a charmed life, but it's kind of how it works. I think in the press release they did mention, Apple mentioned that in a footnote, they're not getting rid of the 9th generation iPad, so that way you can still get the home button and you could start at 3 whatever instead of it being 449, because they wanted to say it starts at. So when you look at the Apple page on the top, the iPad, it's got two of them. You see the old model and the new one. So they'll be able to say starts at and you'll go, hey, that's kind of neat. I want that, I can get some more colors with the iPad, which is weird. It looks so much like the iPad Air at this point. Why they wouldn't bother with the 2nd generation pencil? Just finish the first gen. It's done, okay? It's silly, it's ridiculous, and you can't even charge it directly like you could with the old lightning. If you guys don't remember what that pencil looks like, just plug it into the iPad. It looked like a ridiculous paddle or something. Just let it go, guys. Let it go. Yeah, that's probably supply chain stuff too. I think the other thing that's interesting about this is the continued separation of iPad from iPad Pro, where the iPad Pro is more laptop-like, and the M2 processor, being the same one that's in an Air, makes the iPad Pro just a touchscreen MacBook Air keyboard. Yeah, you have to buy a separate keyboard if you want it. Whereas the iPad, the A14 Bionic, and correct me if I'm wrong, that's the iPhone 12 chip, right? Like, that's a couple of gen's back. I'm doing the math. I think you're right. Yeah, I think it's the 12. It's certainly a couple of gen's back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, 12. Yeah, that would be correct. So Apple's saying like, this is good enough, right? This works, but you're not going to push this one to the limit. This is a tablet. Even though they also sell keyboards for it, the iPad Pro, however, is seen more closer to a hybrid or a laptop replacement, it feels like. And not just keyboards, detachable keyboards. Like, this is, the user experience of the 10th gen iPad is what a lot of people who have the iPad Pro or would buy the iPad Pro would want to your point, because it's power-wise more like a laptop. But, is the iPad 10th gen enough for most people? Maybe. Maybe, yeah. If all you need is a tablet and you just, you know, word processing an email, the old saw, yeah, it might be good enough for you. That $20 delta between the two Apple TV 4Ks seems weird to me, because if you're just buying one of them, you almost certainly want the $149 version, because in addition to having a gigabit port, that also adds thread mesh support for your matter devices, which are coming and will matter soon. Yeah. That's a weird $20 delta to me. It is, and it tricked me. I bought the $129 one thinking, I don't need 128 gigabytes before I thought about the matter stuff. I also probably don't need Apple TV to be matter compliant. I'm doing things in a different way. I say that until the day I run into the use case where I'm like, gosh, I really wish my Apple TV was matter compliant right now, which may come someday. But I'm using Amazon as my hub, so that probably will be a little farther off. The other thing to note is that iPadOS coming October 24th with all of its promised problems, at least according to the beta testers, they were supposed to release it last month. They put it off till this month to fix things. Do you think that they'll be fixed? Probably not yet, no. Yeah, so maybe hold off on that one. Ventura, you know, normal things apply. If you got anything critical, wait a week and see how everybody goes. iPadOS 16, you might want to wait a little longer. All right, much like Fetch, tech companies really want to make live stream shopping happen in the United States. It's been a big success in the Asia-Pacific region, particularly in China. China's forest cabin cosmetics brand, for example, reported that in July 2020, 80% of its sales started coming from online before that 80% had come from in-store. Revenues were $12.59 billion in China in 2020 and are I'm sorry, $125.9 billion in China in 2020 and are expected to reach $512 billion this year. Keep those numbers in mind. They're three digits long and compare them to the U.S. market where we have some live stream shopping going on. Amazon does it. Sometimes it's separate apps than the Amazon app. Walmart does it with some third parties providing the platform. Tiktok is doing it. There's even some apps like Network, which is spelled N-T-W-R-K that focus specifically on live stream shopping. Corsight Research estimates that live stream shopping in the U.S. is going to reach $20 billion this year. That's just two digits in case you lost track. And it will hit $57 billion by 2025, but that's still two digits. Wall Street Journal writing today that live stream shopping is so big in the Asia-Pacific region thanks to monopolies and targeting. For example, China's Alibaba can track the link you receive on its messaging app, know you watch the video on YouKututu and guide you through the purchase on Taobao, all without leaving its ecosystem. Man, go ahead and tell us how it works in the United States. It's a little different here in the U.S. You need an influencer, retailer, multiple tech platforms to get the same job done. A U.S. user might have to download a new app for personal information and payment information in multiple places. Alibaba makes it much simpler, hence the multitude of stories involving Instagram, TikTok, and others experimenting with ways to integrate shopping and particularly payments into their platforms. And you need to get people interested in watching. The content needs to be entertaining enough to get people to watch it from more than just for the sales and still make it that viewers want to buy the things that they're seeing. Think about like a cooking video with the ability to buy the utensils, the ingredients and everything else you're seeing in that video. Yeah, Dave, I don't know if you've followed this space at all, but it's something I've been following on DTNS for a while, that they see how successful it is in China and other parts of Asia and companies that just salivate at that. Have you dabbled in this at all? Not really. We live in the U.S. world here and the shows that we do and no, not really, no. Yeah, I think what's fascinating about it is it really does come down to payments. And I wonder if that's an indication of something wider in the U.S. market that needs attention because, yes, different kinds of antitrust regulation and certainly different privacy regulations in China are going to make it easier to keep everybody in a system like Alibaba's where all those elements are popular in the United States, we intentionally try to keep things separately, try to keep personal information from flowing too easily from one partner to another. So if you're doing a live stream on YouTube and your payment comes from PayPal, it's going to make things more difficult. It puts a roadblock in the way of the shopper and so it makes this less compelling than it is when all you have to do is tap a button and your stuff pre-populates and, yeah, I've spent my money. The U.S. market and different pay technologies seems to be a little slower. Remember, when you're tapping to pay, like, oh, that's amazing. That's been around in Asia forever. So many of these technologies we just knew, they don't accept as quickly as others. With all the different options we're seeing from Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, all these different variants, if it's linked through your phone account, maybe that will be a way to link your accounts as long as they're linked through something. That's the big argument. Who gets to be the person in the middle or the company in the middle that can feel like they're using you as a product which is kind of what they want to do. They want to watch what you're buying. So you've got that part versus the influencer market, which is also a whole other, how do you even begin to describe that? It's a mess. It's kind of like it's micro-targeting at this point. So it's, I don't know if this is something that's going to take off in the U.S. unless it becomes super easy, but I don't know. I've got an idea. So you need to have the talent and the streaming platform combined with the ecosystem that you can say it's first party. I'm not bringing in third-party tracking, so I'm not going to run a fall of privacy, and then you have to have the payment system. And there's a company called Apple that has two of those. The first-party ecosystem and the payment system and Apple TV Plus isn't going to be the same as the livestream shopping that we're talking about in China, but they could do a cooking show where they make it super easy to buy stuff on the cooking show. They could do a tech show where you're buying the products as you're watching them. I don't know if they'll do it though, Dave. Is that where you're going? I don't see it. No, because Apple doesn't just talk the talk with privacy. They actually walk the walk. But they wouldn't have to violate privacy because it's all the stuff they know already. Yeah, but when we're recommended things it seems creepy to us. Regardless of how that recommendation data came about, right? Even if it's totally legit, it's like, wait, why am I being recommended this stuff? This is weird. I don't know. So I don't see Apple. Apple has never telegraphed that they're going to do anything like this. I don't think they're going to add part three. I'm just saying they could. Oh, there's a lot that Apple could do. I mean, I could be wrong, too. I mean, they should. Wouldn't be the first day. Folks, what do you think we should talk about on the show? One way to let us know is our subreddit. You can submit stories and vote on them at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com We have a whole episode of Know a Little More about Wi-Fi 6 but the short version of Wi-Fi 6e is that it adds support for the 6GHz spectrum alongside Wi-Fi's already existing 2.4 and 5GHz support. 6GHz gives you less range than the other two but can accommodate more data. Now that's great if you're a stadium or a train station. Many of our listeners are not stadia or train stations. They may not have any Wi-Fi 6e capable devices in their house which may make you think, well, I don't need a router with Wi-Fi 6e then. But Dave has some ideas on that. You should hear first. Dave, what are some of the benefits that Wi-Fi 6e routers provide if none of my devices are going to support it? Yeah. Well, where it really starts to matter is if you have a mesh network in your home. If it's just a router then that's one device that's talking to all of your client devices and presumably they're just going to talk to that using whatever protocols they have. If you don't have any client devices with 6e and if you're an Apple user, which is the world I sort of come from, up until just hours ago Apple didn't have any devices with 6e but if you've just got a router then there probably isn't a whole lot of 6e to do. However, if you have a mesh system, especially a mesh that is using Wi-Fi for what we call backhaul, meaning the connection between your mesh access points that live around your house, well then the nice part is you could use or your mesh could use 6e to communicate amongst your mesh points and that means that it gets to do that in a uncongested scenario, an uncongested scenario. That can mean that your mesh points and I've tested this and it makes a huge difference. I'm getting probably 30% more speeds between my mesh points using 6e, the 6 gigahertz bandwidth and it's I think partially because I don't have any 6 gigahertz devices in my house that are cluttering that up so the mesh points can sort of talk without other things getting in the way. It makes a big difference. You have to get the right stuff though because not all mesh hardware is made the same. That might be a different conversation, maybe not. Yeah, I have Eero routers and when I upgraded to the new ones that added 6e it made a huge difference because I would run into this situation where because I have so many devices running on my Wi-Fi network, every once in a while they get in each other's way and get in the way of the Eero talking to itself and so I'd have this method of like well let's just turn it off and turn it on again and then it'll be the new device on the network and it'll kick some other device off and that seemed to work once I got the 6e going the backhaul and the increased capacity of 6e. You can just handle more devices made that so I haven't run into that problem since I installed it. That's good. That's good to hear. The increased capacity would only matter once you have multiple 6e devices out there so the 6 gigahertz band has support for up to 760 megahertz channels or 1480 megahertz channels whereas Wi-Fi 6 in the 5 gigahertz range and thank goodness they're using numbers to make this super confusing for version names only had 160 megahertz channels so even once you've got other 6e devices in your house like when your new iPad Pro shows up with the camera on the left still it's going to perhaps take a different channel your Wi-Fi backhaul with your eros should remain pretty consistent. The only issue is as we increase the frequency so we're going from 5 gigahertz on the top end now to 6 gigahertz on the top end you do decrease range this is just a function of physics however my testing with several of these units I've tested the Eero I've tested the TP-Link Deco I've got the plume 60 Super Pods on the way the range I'm finding in a typical house scenario really isn't all that different for backhaul between the 5 and the 6 and like I said I'm getting faster speeds with the 6 so even if technically the signal strength is less the faster signaling of Wi-Fi 6e is taking advantage of it and getting me a better result in the end. That's interesting, yeah. I was looking into this with great interest because in my apartment in a totally different building now there's a lot more neighbors a lot more units here interference so much some interference in here I was looking at the channels my analyzer it's like oh great there's like a thousand networks within me within this like channel this is a real problem so I was looking for my own mesh solution I didn't want to upgrade to 6 just yet looking at this this seems like a great solution for the future because when everybody else is on 6 and I'll have 6e then I'll be a positive I'll be able to have multiple access points I had to get an access point just because there's so much glass and brick that interferes with the signal in this building so between the interference and the actual materials that are in the way it's ridiculous so this if I had a 6e connection between the my my access points probably be a much stronger connection throughout the entire apartment that would make sense that's a yeah that you're in that scenario where unless what you have for building materials really gets in the way of your 6 gigahertz connection the fact that your neighbors probably don't have 6e yet is the benefit so I'd get that sooner rather than later because eventually you know we'll need to talk about like Wi-Fi 7 and why that's going to be better that's two years down the road so the short version is if you're running into congestion and things having a problem on your Wi-Fi and you want to get a mesh network that does Wi-Fi 6e on the backhaul not just Wi-Fi 6e support make sure it also does the backhaul that way then you might see some benefit from that absolutely yeah also the other takeaway is we would like them to stop naming them numbers and take a cue from Apple and start doing Wi-Fi Bob and Wi-Fi Jim well they used to right because I mean 6e is 802.11a x we used to think that was confusing now maybe not so much I don't know though I think people prefer the simple number versus the 802.11 stuff I get it but I think in general people found it confusing but people think Wi-Fi 6 means 6 gigahertz and it doesn't some people think that Wi-Fi 5 was 5G which is the LTE stuff that's what I'm saying should be Wi-Fi Dave Wi-Fi I as Wi-Fi Tom I want Wi-Fi Tom that's what I want that's the 2.4 gigahertz probably this tech support's not up to me yeah that too no if you start calling it names then people are gonna think the name person is responsible for maintaining their network that's a problem which is what it would be that's right real quick before we're out of here CCS Insights says that Apple might make a foldable tablet in 2024 we're not looking at foldable iPhones yet but maybe a tablet which of course mean that foldable tech hits the mainstream if you want the cutting edge form factor though think rollables Oppo, TCL and LG have all showed off various rollable devices including televisions LG made a big splash at 2019 CES with a rollable display on a TV now Lenovo is demonstrating a rollable Motorola smartphone and a laptop with a rollable display the Motorola phone is 4 inches has a 4 inch display so easy to drop in a pocket until you click a button and then the frame just extends up and the screen unrolls to make it a 6.5 inch display the Lenovo laptop has a typical landscape orientation that can extend of the frame and unroll to become a square shape better for maybe doing portrait videos instead of landscape these are just concepts for now but Dave you into it I like that stuff I mean why not it's like new tech fun shiny sell it to me I'm ready I'm kind of with you Dave I as why do you hate it oh I'll tell you why moving parts in my pocket I don't really need that okay because going from a 6.3 6.5 I got a 6.7 inch phone here I don't need it to do anything I don't need moving parts in my phones right now the laptop though that's very cool any more screen for actual work I'm for for that I I'm with you on the like you better make sure that this this part lasts for 10 years I don't want my you know phone to jam at 4 inches and can't unroll anymore but but I have 6.7 inch screen and I would love for it to get a little smaller when I drop it in a pocket I'm just saying sounds pretty cool I loved my iPad my I do love my iPad mini I also loved my iPhone 12 and 13 mini and I'm bummed that I can't get an iPhone 14 mini so if I can get an iPhone 15 foldable or an iPhone 16 foldable I'm in yeah all right well thank you I as act are for being with us today Sarah will be back next week if anybody's wondering where she is she's out for the week hi as thanks for for stepping in what you got going on I'll go to this on there dot com I've got new episodes up actually that's true new episodes last episode I talked about was all the gears you take when you travel and I highly suggest you get a travel router when you go anywhere it's weird but it's actually really awesome so check out those episodes this on there dot com and those do captive portal and stuff now that they didn't use to do it so so much better than it used to be Dave Hamilton thank you as well let's go so great having you on thanks for having me yeah you can me at Mackie cab dot com we're doing the show every week and I'm at Dave Hamilton on Twitter so thanks again for having me absolutely absolutely a pleasure tip of the hat to Allison Sheridan who kind of got the ball rolling made sure that we got connected on that so thanks to her as well indeed also we got we got the new bosses huh that's right we're gonna thank our brand new boss Jesse who just started backing us on Patreon so thank you Jesse for backing us and Dave Jesse Jesse Jesse yesterday I said it could be you tomorrow and Jesse said you know what it's gonna be me that's that's is gonna be the boss of the show tomorrow thank you Jesse could be you tomorrow patreon dot com slash DTNS in fact if you are a patron stick around the show continues as good day internet on Patreon you can also 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