 A very, very good morning to you. Ruth and Bogwa and I were just having a small chat over here. Anyway, it's about time we delve into youth and politics. And my name is Hilda Wadili. And today, for the very first time in the spirit of the conversation we had last week on what it takes to be a leader, today we are going to discuss the complexities of power. You know, what is the impact of political scandals on the perpetrators and the electorate in general? With me in studio, I have the very able, Benson Musungu, who is the National Youth Coordinator for ODM. And then I also have one, Ruth and Bogwa, who is a political analyst and top 100 most influential Kenyans. So please, if you do have any questions, as you know, Ruth has been trending. I'm sure you know her very well. She's a politician as well. So we'd like to understand the background of some of these stories. But however, we are taking a different approach today. We just like to talk generally on scandals. So please, slide into our DM at Y254 channel. The hashtag is why in the morning, hashtag youth and politics, if you'd like to be more specific. On Instagram, you can find us at Y254 underscore channel. And on Facebook, you can find us at Y254. So please do not go anywhere. It's about time I allow them to say good morning to the Y254 family for the very first time. Hello, good morning. Good morning. Yeah, my name, as you told, is Benson Musungum, the National Youth Coordinator. And I'm happy to be here. All right, and I'm Ruth Ambogo, political analyst, as well as the founder of Young Kenyan Women Leaders, which is basically an organization that's seeking to nurture and empower more leaders, get more women out there in the leadership space. Yes. I get more women out there in the leadership space. I like that. God, please, the studio. Anyway, so in case you don't know what a political scandal is, well, it is an intense public communication of an action or event, either real or imagined, regarded as morally or legally wrong and causing general public outrage. So, yes, we have a lot of politicians joining in the new movement, and we'd like to understand why should the public care about a politician's private life? Yeah. First of all, politicians, politicians are owned by the public because they are public servants. So if you get into office by people, by people's votes, that means you're a people's property. So you must, people must, you must be all the time accountable to the people. Personal life, because everybody's watching you everywhere. Even the walls are veers. Whatever you say. Even the walls have ears. I like that. Whatever you say. Anywhere, everywhere. We'll be looked at by the people. So, public, so the politicians, because they were brought into office by people's votes, their lifestyle and everything must be the public domain and must be scrutinized at all times. Yes. Must be scrutinized. Yes, at all times. You actually think that it's actually a thing. It's accountability. It's accountability. And accountability starts by those nitty critis. Your life. How do you work? How do you eat? What is your lifestyle? That's why you remember those days where one time Michuki was seated and they saw his socks and it was an opera everywhere. Ah, why is Michuki's socks, why does it have a hole? We need to stop being petty. Because you must be accountable. Whatever, everything. Even today, they look at my beard and they'll say, ah, what is he doing? Like, they're all being told, ah, what is he doing? What is he doing? And they'll say, no, it's just a style. So, you must be accountable. Your lifestyle, your everything. You are a public property, since you decided to get into public stuff. But if you want to live your personal life, then that is it. People, nobody will bother you. I mean, nobody will want to know what you ate yesterday, where you live, whom you're married to, who you're moving out with and whatever. I think for me, the reason why the public is concerned about a politician's private life and even why we should be concerned about a politician's private life is that your private life, essentially, determines your character, you know? What you do in private is who you are, you get. So, at the end of the day, that kind of character that you have as a private person is the same character you will carry on into leadership. And you understand that leadership is, it is a sole, I mean, it's a sacred responsibility. Essentially, what people are doing is that they are taking away from themselves the ability to rule themselves and putting upon you that power to govern us to, yeah, you know, we are trusting you to lead us. Otherwise, we would have led ourselves. So, what we are doing is, essentially, we are saying, we have selected you based on your character, based on the fact that we have noticed that this is who you are, this is what you stand for. So, for me, I think why we should be interested and why people are interested is because your character shapes the kind of leader that you become. If, in private life, you're a drug dealer, what will prevent you from continuing with your drug dealing business and actually ending up ruining the lives of young people in the process? Because what happens is, upon being, when you're bestowed with power, you even become a bigger drug dealer. If you are Madara, you will become a bigger Madara because power, in a way, has a way of corrupting. And it also provides avenues for people to get away with things so easily. So, if you were corrupt as a leader, in private, before you became a leader, what will prevent you from even becoming a more corrupt person when you become a leader? I think your private life, essentially, spills over to your leadership and it shows who you are. It defines the kind of value system that you will put in place. And I've just mentioned the negatives. Let's talk about the positives. If in private life, you're a family person, you're a family guy, then in public, you will be able to uphold family-related values. If in private, you care about the health, you care about health care. At the end of the day, what will end up happening is that we will see the same being portrayed in your leadership. So, you cannot separate the public leader from their private lives. So, the private life, basically, essentially determines who you become as a leader. So, that is why we should be concerned. I like that, I actually like that. Whoever you are on the inside is actually how you're also going to govern us. Okay, so, let's go to the issue of scandals now. Now that you know it matters. Now that your private life matters and the scandals are here with us. So, according to literature on political scandals, according to a study that was conducted, the media actually does have a big role to play when it comes to the scandalization of certain events. So, I'd like to understand. Let me even start with you, Ruth, because you're the one who has had quite the experience. She's not scandalous. No, no, I'm not saying. Asungu, please, watch your mouth. Yeah, let's say she's scandalous, but I'm saying that she's... She was trending last week. Yes, number one, that's number one. So, I want to understand from you. Do you believe that the Kenyan media does highlight stories the correct way or do they sensationalize things? Well, it's a two-way answer. And this is, I think, based on my being trend. Me trending last week, I think I got two sides of the coin to that question. And this is from experience. That number one, there will be media that would be genuinely interested. There would be certain media houses and media platforms that would be genuinely interested in finding out what was your original agenda. Remember, for me, I was trending because I was exposing a con man. And there were certain media houses that were like, we really need to pick the story as it is. We need to pick the agenda. This person's agenda as they exposed it. And my agenda was exposing a con man. So you'd find certain media houses that would actually report it as it was. And then you would find others that would sensationalize things. You would find other media houses now turning the story around because the thing about media is a good story will always sell. Whether it is told correctly or told incorrectly, a good story will always sell for the media houses. So it's a two-way thing. You find in scandals, you will find media houses choosing to focus on the perpetrator's life, which has got nothing to do with the scandal. So at the end of the day, driving the whole conversation away from the scandal itself, and you'll find media houses that are like, okay, fine. So money has been stolen from NYS. 761 million shillings has been stolen from NYS. So why can't we focus on when was this money stolen? How was it stolen? Can we get the evidence so that we assist the lawmakers and, sorry, we assist the legal bodies, investigative bodies to be able to come up with evidence so that at the end of the day, these persons are prosecuted, I mean, are prosecuted. But then you will find other media houses that will choose to focus on the inconsistencies. For instance, let's talk about Ngerita. You remember the story of how now she was part of the, she was one of the people who accused as being, as having participated in NYS scandal season two. Now, instead of the media focusing on... I like the way it has these on nowadays. It is, you know, it's crazy. In fact, it's as if you're expecting a season three, very sad, yeah? So you'd find some certain media houses saying, okay, fine, we are focusing on this scandal. We want to understand how did this young lady manage to get all these millions, these millions without supplying anything at all. But then you'd find other media houses focusing on the kind of wig she has worn in court, the kind of shoes she's wearing, you know? That is very true. Sensationalizing the whole thing and diverting attention and focus from what the real issue is. Yeah. Okay, clearly I can see Ruth, you're passionate about that because you've taken the tough side of this. Yes. Zungu, do you believe our media does its due diligence when it comes to reporting scandals? In the past, the media's done well. The media's done well, if you ask me, because most of these corruption cases, most of these scandals have been splashed by the media and too detailed, you know? You remember these investigative journalists on different media houses, I can't mention now because it's competition, yeah? And they could follow the matter, they could follow the matter so well deeply. But then now, after they do all that, where do we go from there? Because now, media houses, their work is just to expose. After exposing now, it's now now the other government arms to take over, you know, the judiciary. It's work now, together with the police, to investigate now deeply because what the media does, it will just show their story as per what they have had. But now we have to get deeper through now the laid down structures, investigative authorities, and up to the, so as the matter can be taken now to the judiciary, to the courts, and the cases be heard and blah, blah, blah. So to me, the work of the media, really, it's easy. It's good because they love it. Whether they sensationalize it or not, the fact is what you want to see, is it being talked about? That is what you want to know. And after being talked about after the expose, what next, are the other arms now taking it over from the media because that's their work. The media cannot investigate and after investigating, prosecute, you get it, yes. So their work is to let the matter out, let people talk about it, let the politicians pick it, and let it happen. But now after that, let the other arms take over and make sure that everybody's booked a book. I like that, I like that. However, there's something you've talked about that has caught my attention, which is also part of the frameworks when it comes to dealing with a scandal in the event that it happens. Because most young people are very discouraged to join politics because they are afraid to be exposed. They're afraid of these things. And there's something you mentioned about the spillover. It's called the spillover effect. Like what happened in the case of the NYS season one and season two. Apparently, when a scandal happens to this particular company and then it repeats itself another time, the perception of the public becomes more favorable towards the original offenders. Like now people tend to take it lightly or their attention now diverts from them to the others. So I like the fact that, for example, you've experienced it firsthand. You were doing an expose for a corn man. However, when you started trending, it became a whole different story. To stand around. Yes, from the original offenders. So I'd like to understand from you guys, what do you guys think about this? You know, I think, and I have spoken about this yesterday and even on Friday. And it's an emerging topic here. And this has got to do with women, most specifically women. When women come up and expose an injustice that has been done to them, expose that they have suffered sexual harassment. They have gone through gender-based violence. What ends up happening is that they suffer what we call victim blaming and victim shaming. So the story turns around. So you're here exposing a corn man. You're here exposing a gentleman who gave you happiness. You're here exposing a man who raped you or a spouse who mistreated you, who beat you up. And then the story turns around and the story becomes, oh, you are a jilted lover. Oh, you are also a corn man as well. The story becomes, especially for rape cases, they tell you, oh, why were you at that club at that particular time? What were you doing out? Yeah, what were you doing out? Why did you dress in a particular way? Why didn't you call for help? Why didn't you leave that marriage? And then the story now turns from us focusing on the perpetrator to the person who is the victim. And essentially what this does is that it discourages people from coming out because now in my case, when I exposed this guy, the one thing I noticed was the women kept quiet. My female friends, my people, women on Twitter, guys just kept quiet, you know? Because the thing is, would you be seen supporting me? You would also be a victim, you know? They would come for you, they would be like, do you, how do you even know her? I guess you are also part of the scheme to con people, you know? So but then the other thing I also noticed was that courage to come out also inspired other young people to come out. And on that particular day, to be honest, I saw almost 10 other corn men and corn women being exposed on social media, you know? So the spillover effect can work in two ways. In one of the ways being that you as the victim, doing the expose, you as the victim, you as the victim who has suffered certain injustice, being victim, blamed and victim shamed, or the other side of things being that now you'd find more people coming out courageously and saying, okay, this also happened to me, this person also conned me, you know? So it's a two-way street, you know? Yeah, yeah. Okay, Musungu, what do you think? Especially now, I like the fact that when it comes to Ruth, she can be able to tell her own story. But when it comes to the national youth service, do you think that we went easy on the original, the original NYS-1 suspects compared to how we are reacting for this second time round? You know, we should appreciate where we've come from. The way I just said that the media has its work and it did its work then. Together with the opposition, you remember then. And when all is said and done, yeah? They can never, the media can never go to the next level now, you know? The next level now is now the prosecution. What they can only do is to follow up in court what now the prosecutors are doing, what the courts are doing, you know? We cannot really, when now it gets back now to our country as Kenya, how are we treating corruption cases? That is the question that has come out now. Because we had NYS-1, it has been in court all through. I heard they released a few, no, that was the NYS-6 season two. That released around 12 suspects. Just like that, for lack of evidence, you know? So, it's all about now we as a country. How strong are we taking the fight against corruption? How is the prosecution? How are the courts treating this? That's why the other day you saw the conference, the corruption conference at Bobomas. And questions were being asked, blows thrown and you see, at that time, that's when I realized now people have little trust with the prosecutors, with the DPP, at least. People have some trust with the investigative arm, that is the criminal investigative, the new CID boss. But now the problem was now, what about the judiciary? Are they doing enough? And that is why there were issues around there. And I'm happy that after that conference, at least I think last week, the Chief Justice met all his judges. And the subject was how do we speed up corruption cases? So, I'm thinking we are headed somewhere. We are moving in the right direction, especially after the handshake. I like that. But you see, I have a particular concern here. We can't really say that we have really done our best when it comes to the media, in terms of investigating these corruption cases, because the thing is, the media plays in, in as much as they're not supposed to prosecute, there is a level to which when media probes an issue, then the issue becomes, the issue is taken seriously. You have seen cases where by basic general social issues, social issues where you hear a certain preacher has been raping his congregants or congregation. Social issues, certain social issues that have come up on media, where the media has seriously investigated, deeply investigated and actually aided the policemen in doing what, in arresting individuals. I honestly feel like our media is lazy. And I feel like our media is also compromised. If our media can investigate social issues, media houses can investigate social issues and actually get the police involved. Like, remember there was this scandal, there was this case of a syndicate of women who used to sell babies. I think somewhere in Eastlands or where? Pumwani? Yeah, forget about even Pumwani. There was a Pumwani case, as well as a certain case somewhere in Eastlands, one of those estates in Eastlands, where women were running a syndicate of selling babies and stealing babies from people or getting into contracts with people to sell babies. The media, there was a media house that investigated it thoroughly. And what ended up happening is that as a result of the investigation, police actually took action, the women were arrested. Even Mugo, remember this Mugo guy? Mugo Aweirimo. The one who, yeah, Mugo Aweirimo. The one who the first time he escaped, the second time media also highlighted him and he was actually arrested. So I feel like when it comes to corruption cases, media houses are number one, lazy, and number two, compromised. Compromised in what sense? You see, most of these political scandals are scandals involving politicians as well as, as well as parasitals and very huge parasitals, NHIF, we're talking about NYS. But we wanted to talk about individuals. You know how it comes to individuals? Because here in Kenya, the types of scandals that we have seen, especially according to the list, we have abuse of power, we have tax, we have sex and violence, we have corruption, which we have dwelt on for a minute. But Ruth, this is not a fight with the media. No, no, no, listen, let me tell you, this point has to actually come out and I'm not going to relent on expressing it out. What I mean by media houses being compromised is you really want to tell me that politicians don't pay media houses to shut down stories. They do. There have been cases of politicians bribing media houses, paying them off to actually shut down scandals that are coming up. This is not news, this is not breaking news or anything. It is something that happens. And that is why I'm saying that kind of laxity and that kind of compromise is what leads to us quickly forgetting scandals. Let me tell you something about the United States of America. There was the first and foremost thing about the United States of America is that most of its media is independent, you'd find a lot of independent media houses. Media houses that don't rely on government for advertising because Kenyan media relies a lot and heavily on government funding to run because what you'd find is ministries are advertising their products and paying heavily for it. Parastatos are advertising their products and also paying for it. So when a scandal comes up, for instance, a scandal comes up that involves a parastatol that has been advertising on Y-254. Do you think that Y-254 would actually say, you know what, we need to play our role as media and forget about the fact that we have been earning a cool 100 million shillings from this particular parastatol? Trust me, money will always come first for a media house. If a media house has been receiving millions in terms of advertising costs from a particular parastatol and a scandal comes up, I kid you not, the media house will sit down and ask, we know, we have economic interests. You will see certain, and that's where you'll find when a scandal comes out, certain media houses will not even mention a word of that scandal and other media houses will do what they do. I don't think you look like you have a bone to pick with a couple of people. I don't have a bone to pick with the media. I am just saying that our media houses need to style up. It could be, again, we go again and ask who owns the media, you know? Because the media, it's only KBC that is owned by the public. Because what I'm getting from you when it comes to... These other media houses are owned by the same same people. Politicians, that you expect to be an experienced man. So here in Kenya, when it comes to dealing with a scandal, the information I've gotten from you is that just buy your way out of it. Thank you. Okay, that's what happens. What you're saying, that is what happens. And that is what needs to stop. But we need an ideal situation where a scandal is exposed, no matter who you are in the society. Even if that's your media house, it will say as it is that Benson has stolen chicken. Yes. You know? So Benson stole chicken in the arms of whatever and it should be prosecuted. That is it. Whether Benson owns whichever station, that station, the silk will come out strongly. Report without fear. Yeah, without fear.