 OK. Let's make a start in our final panel for the day. It's really been a fantastic set of panels and wonderful set of questions as well from the audience. So I look very much forward to the discussion that we'll have after hearing from our speakers. My name's Lou Ellen Hughes. I'm a faculty member at the Crawford School here at the ANU. And let me first begin by acknowledging and paying my respects to the traditional owners of the land upon which we meet. This panel focuses on science and technology policy, both basic science and applied. And I'm delighted to be able to introduce three fantastic speakers that we have today who I will introduce for you in a moment. Some of you may have noticed that our Minister for Industry and Science Ed Housick gave a speech at the American Chamber of Commerce last month. And he made some really interesting remarks about the direction of Australia's policy in science and technology. He noted that he was, this was in reference to the United States, excited about deepening levels of cooperation between the two countries. I'm paraphrasing his speech here. And working to ensure that they partner together on technology collaboration, clean energy transition, and advanced manufacturing. He also said that the energy transition has really profound implications, obviously for the climate and future generations, but also for the economic structure of Australia. And particularly he noted that Australia's future success depended on us as a country becoming better at creating value added products. That is, in addition to continuing to provide resources to the world, also thinking about how we might build our innovation system and our systems for developing and exporting technologies. Now, the Minister made another point, which was with regards to economic complexity in the area of innovation studies. There's a quite an interesting and relatively new set of ideas which focus on the importance of economic complexity in national economies for driving long run economic growth. The idea is that innovation is most successful when it comes from you build on existing capabilities within economies. The more capabilities that you have, or the greater complexity that you have within economy, the more potential combinations of new ideas and new products that you can make, which you can then use domestically and export. There is an index of economic complexity that was developed by one of the people who have been the proponents of thinking about this problem, Ricardo Hausmann from the Kennedy School at Harvard. And the Minister noted that Australia currently stands 93rd out of 133 countries in economic complexity index, and that we've also fallen over time relative to many other OECD countries. Now, as you all are probably aware, both Australia and Japan have also recently announced net zero strategies that is committing to reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by mid-century. And in Japan, this has led to a re-energizing, it's hard to avoid that pun, of industry policies through the GX or green transformation set of policies, which is a multi-sectoral innovation and green industry policy. And the Australian government you will have seen as well is also beginning to really seriously think about innovation and green industry policy for the first time, in a long time, as the minister alluded to. Now, when we think about industrial strategies and we think about innovation, interdependence is crucial. It's not only about national innovation systems, but it's also about the global implications of domestic policies, as we've already seen in the energy space. We also know that for a number of technologies, solar photovoltaics is a key one, innovation systems are global. So research labs, fabs, which are doing leading, cutting edge manufacturing can be located outside the home country of the countries which are developing those technologies. So international cooperation is really important. I think that's really what minister Housik was referring to. Now, today we're gonna hear from three speakers who are going to give us different perspectives on science and technology. So let me introduce them to you now briefly. Their buyers are all available, as Shirou said, in the booklet. So I'll introduce them briefly now, but please do take a look at the booklet at your leisure. First, we're going to hear from Associate Professor Masaru Yadime. Professor Yadime is an Associate Professor in the Division of Public Policy at Hong Kong University for Science and Technology. And he's also an Honorary Associate Professor at University College London. And a Visiting Associate Professor at Graduate School of Public Policy at the University of Tokyo. And I feel like we should probably get you to be an Honorary Associate Professor at the ANU as well, as some point. It's really terrific that he was able to join us from Hong Kong. He's come down from Hong Kong to speak with us. One of a real global leader in science, technology, and innovation policy, particularly as it focuses on sustainability and energy. And particularly as those relate to data, that is internet of things and AI. So we'll hear from Professor Yadime first. Second, we'll hear from Professor Anna Moore, who is a Professor of Astronomy and also the Director of the Australian National University's Institute for Space, in which role she sets the strategy for space-related activities at the ANU, which sounds like a pretty cool job, I have to say. Professor Moore joined us from Caltech and has worked with Japan as well as other astronomy institutes around the world. And third and certainly not least, we'll hear from Takero Izuhara. Mr. Izuhara is a Director at ST Solutions Australia, which is a soft bank company. And he's been working in the IT sector for many years, particularly focused on AI, on robotics, and also on process automation in Singapore, in Japan, and in Australia. And I'm happy to announce, some of you may have seen one of these in Japan, that he's been involved in developing the high-functioning AI robot, PEPA. And actually, the hotel that I stay at, when I'm in Tokyo, sometimes has one of those in the lobby. I always give it a bit of a wave, and it kind of waves shyly back at me when I go in to check my luggage in. So the speakers are all coming at the kind of question of technology from slightly different angles. We've got space, we've got AI and automation, and we've got sustainability issues. So what we've asked them to do is open with about 15 minutes of remarks each. Each are using just a few slides, and then we'll come back together and begin discussions. So let's begin with Professor Yanime, the floor's yours. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much, Professor Hughes, for your kind introduction. Currently, I'm at the division of public policy at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. Used to be based at the University of Tokyo for many years, and then I moved to Hong Kong about six and a half years ago. And then I'm now looking at the situation of science and technology from outside the country. I think that gives me a lot of fresh opportunity to look at the situation of Japan. Also, I'm affiliated with the University of London. They have also department of particularly focusing on science, technology, engineering, public policy. I think increasingly major universities in science and technology are trying to establish such a kind of unit or institute, trying to look at how science and technology affect all the societal issues like sustainability, economic security, and also international relations. So I think it's good to have multiple perspectives to look at these very complex interrelated issues. Okay, so yes, the science and technology is also a very broad issue, and there are so many issues we need to discuss. But just as a kind of snapshot of the current situation with regard to science, which is represented by publication. So you see, this is the kind of ranking of countries with regard to the publication of scientific papers published in journals. So US has been the leader, and then Japan used to be the second. And then recently China has very increased the number of publications. And then the latest one, the China is the number one country, and then US the second, and then Japan is in the fifth position. Even though the absolute number of publication has been increasing, but then that's simply other countries publishing more than Japan. So this is the kind of situation. There are a lot of other indicators like the 10% publications or top 1% publications. And then the performance of the pie is not necessarily so good compared with the absolute number of publications. And then we've got the patents, which would be considered as a kind of indicator for technological development. There are a lot of debates about whether we could use patent as an indicator of innovation because the value of patent could be very different depending upon patent one, patent two. But then still we have a very established database globally so that it's quite useful. So I think still many researchers use patent data. And then this is based upon the number of patent families which mean that you can apply for patents. The same patents can be applied for in different countries. So we try to integrate them as just one patent so that we don't count the same patent at two times or three times. And then here Japan has been the leader in the world with regard to the number of patent families. Even though the other countries like particularly China increasing the number of patent applications in recent years, but still somehow Japan maintains the number of patents here. Yes, and then this is the share of patent families by technological fields. And then here Japan has been quite strong with regard to electrical engineering and also general machinery and then transport equipment. But compared with them let's say biomedical devices and biotech are relatively weak. So you can see which country will be relatively strong with regard to the technological fields. And then if you look at the US then you see the biomedical biotech. They are very strong. So compared with let's say electrical engineering. And then China, the ICT in particular has been really progressing in recent years. So in a way global speaking we can see, ideally we can see a kind of complementarity between different countries because different things are there in different countries. And then this is just the figure taken from WIPO recent report. This is the share of global electrical patenting by Japan, Korea and China. So East Asian countries are very dominant in this domain. Here, electric patenting includes broadly all these two. Conventional audiovisual technology but also telecommunication technology and also operators and energy and IT, same conductors and also other computer technology. So it's quite broad category. But then you see that Japan used to be really almost half of the electrical patents obtained in the past. But then after that Korea increased and then China has increased. So in a way Japan has been leading in this domain but then increasingly Korea and then China has been really increasing their patenting activities in this domain. And then because of the time limitation I just want to mention some of the areas which somehow I've involved. This is some of the research activities I've been working with my colleagues in Tokyo. Somehow we try to work on distributed energy systems with peer-to-peer energy exchange based on blockchain. And this is still very preliminary in the sense that it's not yet scaled up to the mainstream energy sector. But then you could see kind of potential of somehow linking the green transformation and also digital transformation. These areas are very emphasized by the Japanese government, for example. But also industry has a very promised, in a way a large expectation regarding creating markets and then to try to export them to the global market. And then here we see the photovoltaics put on the roof and then the back streets and then now EVs are put into it. And then we can also exchange energy. So now the households can become producer of energy in addition to consumers. They can become a prosumer of energy. So this kind of idea of distributed energy systems has become particularly important after the experience of Fukushima earthquake and then this Fukushima accident in 2011 because obviously somehow that incident showed vulnerability of the traditional concentrated energy system so that we need to maintain a more resilient energy supply so that this kind of distributed system could potentially provide a kind of solution to a vulnerability of the more conventional energy system. But then we also try to look at the challenges with regard to technological, economic, social, environmental, and institutional issues. And then particularly we found that institutional dimension which includes the regulations, policies, and also the issue like privacy and also data security on the standardization. So these kind of issues are probably one of the most important challenges we need to address in addition to purely technological issues. And then somehow trying to linking this digital transformation and energy transformation I think the recently Japanese government tried to promote the sharing and using data among key stakeholders. So one issue here is to how to make a balance between all the concerns like privacy, security, on the one hand and then the promoting data sharing, data exchange, and data usage on the other. So there are many different ways to address this challenge with regard to data governance. So for example some of the countries like UK, Canada, and probably maybe Australia the idea is to establish data trust which is independent so that somehow you try to maintain a kind of neutrality and also transparency so that the stakeholders can see how our data is collected and then how data is used by whom or what purpose is. So creating a kind of independent entity and then ask that entity to manage data is one way of looking at dealing with this. And then so in a way it can be understood as a kind of concentrated centralized system in a particular city or maybe country. And then the Japanese government seems to emphasize a bit different approach in the sense they try to make it more decentralized in the sense that they create a kind of common data linkage platform. But then the data is different kinds of database is owned and managed by different players, different actors, government or companies or maybe NGOs. And also the applications are provided by different stakeholders, different companies or maybe the regional government can play that role. And then try to facilitate the linkages among the data providers and also data users and then to facilitate the use of data. So I think increasingly for example the electricity consumption data which is traditionally owned by the power companies and then now I think the regulation has been just changed recently and then the other stakeholders can have access to the data so that you can use the data about energy consumption for other purposes. So if you know how energy consumption is recorded and then you can see when people are inside the house for example and then you can maybe adjust the timing of delivery of other goods and services. Or you can measure the health condition of people particularly elderly people living alone. If there's no change in energy consumption then you see something happen in the house for example. So then that kind of data usage going beyond its own industry would be also exploring huge opportunities for data usage. And then this is actually my last slide. So what are the areas we can expect collaboration between Japan and Australia? I think one thing I could mention here is what could be called critical technology assessment management. I think this has become quite important in the context of economic security as discussed in the previous session. Obviously we need to have information where the minerals are coming from, where the resources comes from and then how they are processed by what means and then what are the impacts. So I think traditionally this argument has been made by all the security experts but then increasingly we need to combine that kind of perspective with its environmental assessment or social assessment. So what are the COTA emissions? What are the use of labor? What are the impact on local communities? So these kind of arguments can be combined with more conventional approach to economic security where these materials are coming from. So in a way I think these discussions tend to be discussed in a separate community in the past where there are very different kinds of people. But then I think we need to have a kind of integrated comprehensive critical technology assessment and management. So this will be one area which I can imagine that Japan and Australia can work together. And particularly Australia is very strong with regard to all the minerals and resources and Japan will be very keen to work with Australia scholars and industry for example to look at how we can assess and then how we can manage all these opportunities and challenges through our supply chain. So as I mentioned also in the previous session the hydrogen was one big area. But I think in March the first shipment experimentation from Australia to Japan about the hydrogen. But this hydrogen is produced by using coal. Well in a way if you combine with CCS, the carbon storage, carbon capture and storage then you can vertically eliminate the COTA emissions. But also we can think about producing hydrogen from using the linear energy. So there are many options. So we need to have a kind of a critical assessment what are the environmental impacts, what are the costs, what are the implications of business so that we need to have more detailed information and more critical assessment on that. So on this point I think Japan and Australia can work together. So this can also be applicable to electric vehicles and all the batteries. So these are quite important areas now. But then I think we really need to have more comprehensive critical assessment. And then the second domain which I could mention now is the governance of emerging technologies with stakeholders. So on this I mentioned the smart cities in the sense that as I just mentioned data is increasingly available from different devices, different sources from IoT, satellite imaging and also the buildings and also automobiles. So how we can manage a lot of data from different sources and then use them to tackle the urban challenges including climate change and also circular economy and also biodiversity protection. So here I think in a way Australia has been working on this, I'm editing a special collection papers for journal data policy and then I actually reviewed one paper coming from researchers in Melbourne and then they are working on this topic by making an experiment by trying to the citizens engaged in the whole the data governance processes. So this is I think increasingly important in the sense that let's say some other countries let's say China is also very actively pursuing the smart cities. But then the approach will be quite different. So I think on this point Japan and Australia can work together to somehow propose what to be the appropriate way of designing and implementing and evaluating smart cities including all the environmental and societal dimensions and then to make a proposal to let's say international standard or a kind of internationally accepted practice so that not only just a technical performance but also we need to incorporate all the societal dimension so that we try to promote smart cities as human centered and inclusive exercise. So that would be also one thing which I mentioned. And then increasingly we have the challenge of data governance across the border so how we can manage trans-border data flow. This has been a big topic particularly I think G20 in Osaka some years ago and the Japanese government proposed this data free flow with trust and in a way this has become I think now a very important challenge and also this year the Hiroshima G7 summit and this has been very emphasized. So how we can implement that is a big challenge. So I think some of the countries are really now talking about data sovereignty for example to not allow data to go beyond the national border or regional border and some of the ASEAN countries also now some adopting this kind of approach but at the same time I understand ASEAN has kind of reasonable agreement about data flow within ASEAN so how we can manage that maybe Japan and Australia can work together to make a kind of well established framework so that we can allow, we can exchange data across borders so that we can benefit from all the data collectively because increasingly machine learning is based upon how much data you have, good data you have. So in that sense Japan and Australia can work together to propose all this rulemaking with regard to data governance and this is also quite important for the AI governance which is also a very big topic and this year's Hiroshima summit they started the Hiroshima AI process in cooperation with OECD and also GPAY which includes Japan, Australia. So probably we could try to promote this whole agenda of AI governance with transparency, accountability and inclusiveness. So this would be especially important because now there are two fears about AI existence and existential risk to humans and some of the listeners argue. So we need to maintain a system with all this transparency and accountability and also we also need to deal with kind responses to information manipulation, disinformation so how we can maintain a trust-based system for AI governance. So these are some of the ideas which I have at this moment for Australia, Japan collaboration in the future. Thank you very much. Thank you. One of my big worries with AI is and risk is that it gets better at creating the algorithms that keep me watching Netflix till the lousy of the morning. So Anna. I find it really interesting that the three science and technology people come with slides today. We were told you can have slides and to us that's all we better have slides when we come along so we can do it. So I often get asked what is space? I never get asked what's astronomy? But I get asked what do you mean by space? All people have different ideas of what that word means. And so I wanted just to take a few minutes to just introduce what I think that means and what the international community thinks that means. So we're all on the same playing field before we have a conversation in Q&A. So space often when I talk to people when I say space they kind of think of human exploration. They think of mining on asteroids. They think of which is awesome and cool. I'm a scientist. They think of Elon Musk's car going off into space. I rose my eyes. But that's what they think of space when I say it. They think of rockets. They think of launch. But that's not what space is today. In economically, how much we spend on it, what we do, and how much we rely on it. So it's more like the pictures on the screen. This is really what space, the domain of space means to us as humanity today. This is what we use it for. So we use it for navigation. We use it for communication. We use it for automation, remote automation, remote communication. We use it for telehealth. How do we connect people in remote locations? How do we connect them to hospitals, to doctors to get information, remote education? We use it for Earth observation. It's an ultimate laboratory to understand what our planet is doing, how it's changing over time. Obviously a big issue right now. It's the easiest way to monitor large areas of ocean, of land, which is very important for Asia Pacific region in particular. Think fishing, legal and legal fishing. Think what's happening on the waters. Think what's happening in terms of climate adaptation, bushfires, sea level rises, sea level rise. All that kind of stuff is monitored from space. That kind of data is used in the international courts of law. When you're talking about changes in land use, for example, or illegal land use, often that kind of data is used there. It's used for disaster services. It's the easiest, cheapest way, sorry to get down to money, but often it is. It's the easiest way to monitor large areas of ocean and land to be that connector, I suppose, to emergencies, et cetera. Of course, it's used prolifically in the military and domain as well. That's what space is to me. That's what space is internationally and that's what we depend and use it for. If it wasn't here today, if it wasn't here now, the services were switched off, we would be in a lot of trouble. This recording would not be broadcast, for example. That's not the end of the world. But, oh, my beauty, I don't know. No, I mean, you see what I mean. It's integrated in everything we do. We don't think about it. We don't think of space that way. So I just wanted to get that out a little bit. Economically, the space services, space activities total in 2022, something like half a trillion dollars internationally. Australia, a lot of that is in communications, navigation, services. So think services is paid for by services on the ground. So it's us on the ground that are funding to a large extent most of what we do in space. Australia, from Earth Observation data, Australia not really renowned to be an upstream provider of space services, spend something like, our government spends something like 2.5 billion dollars a year on Earth Observation data. So we care about it. And that's just for Earth Observation. But a point I wanted to get across today is that the nature of what we can do in space is changing and it's changed roughly over the last 10 years due to a rapid reduction in access. It's got a lot cheaper to access space and infrastructure is everything for space. So it means that how we operate in space, what we can do and how we can fund it has turned upside down over the last 10 years. If you look at the SpaceX's influence on the Ukraine war, for example, and communications and how that was able to be adaptable, you're talking about a move from a single, large communication satellite to, a swarm's not the right phrase scientifically, but think of it like an organic swarm of smaller, cheaper satellites that if you take one out, you replace it with another. And they're all very organic, I suppose, in that sense. So the nature of what we do, how we do it is changing and that's why Australia cared about it five years ago to start their own space agency because we realized we had a lot to offer, but the nature of how you do that is changed. And countries like Japan who are just powerhouses in space upstream in activity and exploration, for example, amazing effort from Japan on the world stage, it also I think in its community is reflecting on how space is changing and how it can react to that. So I'm doing it better than others, I think Japan's doing pretty well. So selfish plug for my own institute here at ANU. We started up five years ago in response to the fact that our government wanted to start its own space agency to support a growing space sector. My approach, though, wasn't to pick one technology over another, my approach was to do it the other way around was to say, we want to solve society's greatest challenges to do that we need a multidisciplinary team. A lawyer is just as important as an economist, is as important as someone who does food growth, plant growth, water purification, rocket fuel. Didn't matter. And so we have a very broad participation in our leadership as about 30 academics, all from different disciplines and it really lifts the level of conversation. I love being a scientist, I'm very good at it. We're not, we get lost in little tiny tunnels, okay? It's really good to be lifted up to important national conversations and solutions and that's what a multidisciplinary team does for you. So three areas we're looking at in Australia are sustainability, space sustainability. This is both how can space help sustainability on the ground but also how do we, to us, because space is so important to be, because space is so important to us, we also care about the sustainability of space itself. So we don't want it to get damaged in a way that we can't use it anymore. And space is big, I need to quote Douglas Adams, but there's a very thin layer around the Earth called low-worth orbit. That isn't big, that's very thin and it's the cheapest access so all your business cases and commercial space are there because it's the smallest gravitational potential it's cheaper to get to. So that's where your commercial business is but if you start having a lot of debris and satellites and thousands and thousands of constellations you're gonna start running into trouble. So sustainability, yes, is not just using space to keep us sustainable on the ground but it's about us making sure that we protect space as well. Space education, this is workforce training especially in Australia. We have a different paradigm to Japan here and that's sense with space we have to educate our people into what space means and how they can operate in space. And lastly something we're very interested in especially at ANU is how can we be using space as a way to partner across the Asia Pacific to be solving things that we all care about in that region. Space is expensive even with that cheaper access today it's still not three cents, okay? So how can we be partnering together to solve challenges that we have regionally as well? What happened there? Stopped. Three initiatives we're looking at the first is to do with climate adaptation. Bushfires are a big issue in Australia what we want to do is bring some ownership of that problem we want to bring our scientists and technologists to come in not when the fires have happened but actually turn that around and say you know what if you can figure out where these fires are going to be three months in advance pre-season how can you adapt? How can you get everyone together to do something about it so that you can reduce the massive fires that we saw three years ago that are coming again and it's not close our eyes they are coming again so how do we is internationally, nationally do something about that? We're also doing a similar response for water as well groundwater measurement so that we can give towns a heads up in advance so that they can change their water usage for example. I won't go into how it's very cool if you like gravity measurements it's totally cool but that's how you do it. This is, oh it hasn't, I'm sorry am I pressing the button too much? No, I'm doing it for you. Oh man, you should have said that before I've been pressing the button. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I almost broke the key. And I'm just putting these projects up to give you a flavour of what's happening in new space. So space medicine for earthlings so this is a project where during COVID especially in Australia we realised that access especially remote communities to healthcare was a real issue. It's expensive, it's hard for them to do so and with ageing populations as well it's a, people wanna be at home for longer now but how do we provide them the level of healthcare? We've heard a little bit about that in the previous talk actually. So this is a project where actually we're using a space problem, a problem that's in space right now which is how do we enable the next space travellers who will be selected not by youth and health but by, if they can afford it. How do we protect them going into space if they have previous conditions or even someone with asthma or how can we risk assess if someone can go in a space hop or something like that. So we're modelling using AI and other techniques we're trying to model in software the human body or systems within the human body and combining that with sensors, wearable sensors being able to in advance work out how the human body reacts over time and can you pick up conditions. So while the funding for this project is actually about space travel the real reason we want to do it is because it can be applied here on the ground. So you can think about people being in remote communities or any of us getting older being at home being able to be monitored in a telehealth way so that we can feel confident that we can be at home and getting elements picked up. And lastly another COVID crisis I'm not sure that's a right phrase but something out of COVID that came out was the importance of communications. Human access to communications, secure communications and the limitations of radio frequencies to be able to deliver that. So a possible, well a solution to that is to change to using optical wavelengths, lasers in fact frequencies we can't see with our eyes. This is, it's not shining but these are frequencies you'd see with your eyes but these are frequencies that you can pack a lot more punch into the wavelength. You can basically transmit a lot more information. You'll start to see some of these technologies coming out very soon. In Australia we have projects funded both in Canberra and on the West Coast to be doing the ground segment of these new technologies. Why? Because Australia is huge. It has a lot of community who know how to build these things and also we're mostly cloud free. And so if you want to do any R&D in quantum communications in the future or downlink Australia, the continent itself has it. It's just a huge opportunity and in fact we're working with Nick in Japan to do the very same. This is my last slide. So just coming back to opportunities here, I'm personally very interested in the application of new space to solving regional issues. And in using that to enable my sector, Australian sector to be a part of that. Well, we're not replicating the wheel. And I wanted to touch on a couple of projects here that kind of highlight the importance of, sometimes it is important to have ownership of this hardware of these systems. You're not gonna own all of it, it's expensive, but there are crucial times when you do want to be in control of your own assets. The top right picture here, during the January 22 eruption of the Tonga volcano, that seismic shift was enough to rupture all the underwater cables that went into the South Pacific, 20 islands in that region. And there was a University of the South Pacific educational satellite which was repurposed by those 20 islands to be able to provide communication in that region. So that story is just emphasizing a very small investment in new space technology now, was able to provide continued connectivity into that region, otherwise they wouldn't have had that. And the bottom left picture, recently there was an outage in one of the UK in mass satellites, which gives a lot of communication data to agricultural farms and automated agritech in the region. In Australia when that went out, it meant that farmers that were no longer able to, their equipment didn't work, the tractors didn't work, they had to go out and try and do the best that they could. And it was quite a significant loss of income for them. So there are cases, there were many cases where having your own ownership, working in partnership with other regions, with other countries matters, it matters to have that technology and experience built in-house as it were, to deliver your joint desires as it were. And top left I just want to finish with, so Japan and Australia I think are just starting their space sort of collaboration. But our space agency aided the JAXA, the Japanese space agency, with their landing of the infamous, their positively infamous, renowned Hayabusa mission and Hayabusa 2 mission. So JAXA were able to, Japanese community were able to go to an asteroid, land, take a sample, come back. And these things are coming at hypersonic velocities, 20, well probably 20 kilometers per second at that point, they're coming from a long way away. And so having a big target, which you have a trusted friend you can actually aim for, was very critically important. And so the Australian Space Agency worked with the Wumara site to be able to host that landing back, which was a couple of years ago. So I'd like to hope that the given new space and new possibilities and growing issues in the region, not even just military, I just mean due to climate change, food, migration, what's happening on our oceans, et cetera, it'd be really great if we could be doing more work together. Thank you. Thanks Anna, and that's a terrific place to leave things to when we move into the Q&A to talk about how that might come about. Mr Isada. Last person to be a guest speaker today. So actually Kaizuka-san was invited by Ipe-san, Shiro-san invited me. So Shiro-san is really supportive for me as always. So why not, I want to contribute to your community today, appreciate your invitation. So first of all, so I want to introduce myself briefly. So as you can see, my name is Takido Isada. So please call me easy. So Australian friend give me this short nickname. So I like it. So I am born in Gunma prefecture. Gunma is north of Tokyo. So how many people went to Gunma previously in the past? Awesome, thank you so much. I think, you might know, so there are so many mountains, there are so many snow and hot spring. So indeed I am a mountain boy. So I went to Tokyo to study at K.O. University and then after my graduation, I worked for IBM Japan. In 2016, I moved to Singapore to work for SoftBank. I lived in Singapore almost five years and then amid the COVID in 2021, I moved to Australia to set up new office based in Melbourne. So I have two kids. So two of them are going to government primary school now. So named Greenfield Primary School. So actually the biggest achievement I did in Australia so far is to be a part of PTC. So Parent's Teacher Council. I would like to learn about local community as well as to see the gap between Australia and Japan in terms of educational system. So for example, as you know, in Japan there are plenty of home bank from the age of primary school students. But as you know, in Australia no homework at all. So I had a chat with the principal. The principal said to me, so easy, don't need any homework for the student because it's the time for kids, for family to spend together at home after school. So cool, so this is really nice advice for me. Social activity is the most important in Australia. And then happy wife and happy life. So this is second advice. So I received, I have to follow. Anyway, so I want to introduce my company what I am doing now. So as you can see, ST Solutions Australia. So SoftBank Technology Solutions Australia. We are providing technology as a solution. So main solution are artificial intelligence and robotics. They are like ordinary items such as iPad, tablet, mobile phone, the use case of artificial intelligence, the use case of robotics, you don't know that. That's reason why at the beginning we are providing the use case of artificial intelligence. We are providing the beneficial of robotics. To do so, happy to be more creative to come up with the use case. Through our initiative, happy to create further opportunity for everyone. Because we believe technology can help us to solve the problem in the community as well as to take on new challenge. So that's reason why I want to create new opportunity for everyone. So for example, as you can see, you see some mentioned, we have a paper this July. So we did project with ACT, Government, AAU and University of Canada. As you can see, big boss named Andrew Berson met the paper in person, greeting the paper together. I want to share several use case in terms of robotics, human robot named paper we have. So what we are doing in Australia so far. So we did programming class. So it's really nice as you know, for kids especially for STEM engagement. And then we are working with community. So kind of Victorian police, Starlight Children Foundation. So paper can be ambassador for them. Of course, human beings as a policeman, they can do explanation what they are doing for the community. But paper can do so. If paper can do so as their ambassador, paper can help them to get more attention from the community, especially from the kids. So it's a smarter way as you can imagine. Also paper is working with several government school, primary school as assistant of Italian teacher. Then we are also working with RMIT, Monash University for their Chinese class as well as for Japanese class. I can see so many potential because there are so many people as you know who are studying Japanese, more appreciated your interest. Of course we are working with academy, university as well as corporation. So paper can connect to chat GPT to make them more smarter. They actually physics and give me several questions for this session. So what opportunity are there to deepen collaboration between Japan and Australia in science and technologies? I am thinking about this question to put my dedication. Actually as you can see, so there are so many answer from my side. For example, joint research initiative, exchange program, technology transfer, public private partnership, startup ecosystem, blah, blah, blah. I hope you can make sense, these are the question. But as you can see, bottom of this slide, right hand side by chat GPT. Indeed I had a chat with chat GPT so to get this answer for these questions. So nowadays I am always talking to chat GPT like this what I want to highlight through this message. Indeed technology is ready, technology can help us to start further conversation like this topic. Of course we are not the chat GPT, need to put our dedication by human beings, what is the difference to move forward. So this is also very, very important. To do so, I put my perspective to come up with several suggestions like this. So first of all, try new technology like my syllabus and use it in the local community. For example, chat GPT, I did. Actually my son, year five at primary school, he can chat with chat GPT. The artificial intelligence, several artificial intelligence is available as you know. For example, computer vision. As you know, Australian retail company like Kmart and Burnings, they did AI project as a trial last year. But community argued them to stop the project because they worried about AI. They don't know the beneficial of AI. That's reason why they want them to stop the project. I want, of course, I accept that. I respect the community. If I can add some, my message from technical perspective. Actually, as you know, there are so many CCTV. Over 20 years, actually, literally, we are captured. So in terms of data of the collection, either by CCTV or AI, it's the same. Despite that, everyone worried about AI because they don't know that. So that's reason why to understand the community. Community by community is different. To understand that, I hope we can work together with community. So for example, in terms of personal security, at the end of year concert at my primary school, my children's primary school, at the beginning, Principal said, please do not take any photo at all for security issue, private issue, private matter. Of course, everyone, most of them follow the direction. So in Japan, what is different? So in Japan, if I have a child who will graduate from the school today, I am keen to the place where I can take the photo very, very, very well. So it's acceptable in Japan. So like this, even if we are doing the same thing, so community requirement expectations are totally different. So that's reason why I love working overseas. So technology is the same. So even if when we do the project in Japan, in China, in Singapore, in the US, technology is the same. But community is different. Country by country, requirement expectation, the concern are totally different. Why we are doing technology with technology? Because we want to help the community to do so, have to work together to understand them. So this is my suggestion. The second, please respect technology like your body, like your friend. So if you have technology, you are expecting them to do everything. So actually, I am also lazy. I hope my robot can do everything. Instead, you cannot do so. Robotics cannot do so. So like your body, when you have new member in your team, you will help them. You will train them. You will provide any procedure to them. And then, once they be adjusted in the environment, they can help you. Like this, I hope everyone can respect technology. Once technology, robotics, be adjusted in the environment, be installed in the environment, they can help us. So please respect technology like your friend. The number three, suggestion. So strengths, let's strengthen our relationship as a friendship together. So actually, when I moved to Australia, I can see so many good relationships between Australia and Japan as a friendship. So it's really nice. So when we look at relationship between, for example, Japan and US, Japan and China, because of the economy, because of politics, because of defense, sometimes it's working. But sometimes it's not working to keep on good relationship sustainability. I hope we can have a good relationship as a friendship. If you help your friend, if you help your family, why not? Without any reasonable reason, want to help them. So like this relationship, we had already had. We want to keep on this good relationship as a friendship. As you can see, left-hand side. So it was taken in New York City in 1900. So as you can see, there are so many cars with holes on the road with the holes. But when you look at right-hand side, it was taken in New York City in 1913. There is no holes. Machine replaced the holes. Indeed, in short period, technology will be changed. So actually, we don't know what kind of technology will be appeared in the near future like this photo. So we are in unexpected era at this moment. But if we can use technology, they can help us. How we can do so? To maximize the utilization of technology, what we need. So this is my last message. Thank you so much. Last message. So actually, how to do so? From my understanding, as my opinion, we need a big picture. What country we want to become? So what kind of relationship we want to keep on together? So like this big picture, we needed to design, installation plan to design how to use new technologies. They actually, so far, I put my suggestion from technical perspective. But today, not for technology session alone. So it's for Australia and Japan. So this is my final message for today. So actually, as I mentioned, there are so many good relationships. And then there are so many sister cities. So between Australia and Japan, as you know, I think 107 sister cities we have. Of course, like my hometown, most of the sister cities are not in Tokyo, metropolitan. Most of them are in countryside, like my city. So they have so many problems getting older, as you know. Not only in Japan, but also in Australia, too. To help them, I want to share two projects with you all. So first project, so let's buy the Japanese government. So Digital Garden City Nation, Digital Day in Toshi, in Japanese, I think you might know. So Tokyo, again, so they have a lot. They have everything. Tokyo is really convenient. But unlike Tokyo, countryside is not convenient, like my home country, hometown. I love hometown, anyway. To, you know, Japanese government want to make rural area more convenient through digital capability. So it's the strategy. It's the vision named Digital Garden City Nation. To achieve this goal, they are focusing on Web 3.0, the decentralized autonomous organization, NFT, non-fungible token. They want to share second project with you. So Yamakoshi Dow Project. I think some of you might know Yamakoshi, which is in Niigata prefecture. So actually, they have the number of residential in Yamakoshi, just 800 people are living there, just 800. So if they do not do anything, they will getting died, unfortunately. But they do so many things with NFT. So they are creating NFT named Nishi Kikoi NFT. And then they distributed this NFT to real residents free of charge first. And then they are asking so many people who want to buy this NFT. But upon the person buy this NFT, they are eligible to be a digital residence. Both real-distance and real-distance and digital-distance working together to plan the coming festival Matsuri, what kind of activity they will do to draw the attention out of the community. What kind of budget they will secure to award the next financial year? Budget is very important. And then if the person do some contribution as a voluntary, they will give them NFT as a good system to encourage the community. And then they will talking together on the community. Despite where they are living, they can talk together. They can work together. I think this concept we can refer to keep on good relationship as a sister city, because they have already had so many good relationships. To keep on this good relationship to the future for next generation don't need to be physically. We can communicate together digitally, virtually. Of course, hybrid is also important. But like this technology, we can refer to. Thank you so much. OK, so I feel like the first thing I need to say is if there are any A&U students still here who might be in one of my classes, please don't submit an assignment that says, buy chat GTP 3.5 or indeed 4.0 for them. Although it's true, they do give a general sense of the direction to go. It becomes difficult as a faculty member to set good assignments. So we've got about 20 minutes for questions. I'm just going to lead off with a couple and then open the floor just to kind of get things moving. And I wanted to start with you. You made a really interesting comment about Australia's space agency and Japan really at an entry point of beginning to collaborate more together on a bilateral basis. And so I was wondering if you could share with us a little bit more about how that's happening and what direction you think it's going to go in. I was particularly really interested in the comment that you made that because of the economics of space have really changed it. You've got a whole new set of actors coming in, commercial actors primarily, as well as changes in technologies, you know, it's like miniaturization and small satellites getting put up and all those kind of things. So presumably that would have an effect on the stakeholders or the actors involved in international collaboration as well. So some thoughts along those lines, if you could. Yeah, that's a lot to unpack. But so my experience over about 20 years working with Japanese colleagues and institutions on astronomy was amazing. And if I could just copy paste that into space, I'm going to retire really well. So, but space is not astronomy. So whereas Japan and Australia are hyperaligned on astronomy and what that means. And astronomy is a discipline. It's a small discipline in physics, which is another discipline. Space is a domain. So then you can't compare the two of them at all, really. But whereas Japan and Australia and internationally, people are aligned on what are the big challenges in astronomy? What are the top three things we want to do? We all agree on it. We all go behind closed doors. We fight, you know, and what those three things are. But when we come out as a community, the astronomy community, we know exactly what they are. And we know how we achieve them. And it makes our story, it lifts the game. And it makes our story much cleaner, I suppose you could say. And it means that we can work very well together. I still love working with my colleagues in Japan. It's very high quality, very similar attitudes to contracting and things. It's like, it'll be all right, mate, you know? And so we've, yeah, I wasn't expecting that when I first started 20 years ago. But space is very different. And the maturity of our two countries with regards to upstream space in particular are very, very different. And one of the biggest challenges in Australia is for people to, I suppose, educate the government, advisors, and ministers on what space means. And that's the level we're at right now. And I'd say we've gone a little bit backwards in five years. So I don't want to start so negative. I'm usually not a negative person. But I'm just very practical. And so we've kind of gone back a little bit on what does that word mean? And so in Australia and the Australian community, we have a little bit of work cut out to be bringing it back to actually space. It's not about just rockets and just this and just that. It's actually very important to our way of life. We're already spending a lot of money on it. And yeah, so that's the first difference. Whereas in Japan, their story is so bright. It certainly is an external person. It's such a success story. It's intertwined with, I suppose, national pride, certainly on the international stage. And their achievements are just spectacular. So we have a big difference there. But that being said, we're starting to see more projects where we're coming together in a complementary way. So the Hayabusa one was just the start of that. But I think in areas like quantum, I'll pick quantum communications is one of them. So Australia brings a lot of positives, a lot of necessary components to a world where we want to be connecting quantum computers as the next internet ride, so for example. So we bring a lot of positives to that table and one of them being the ground infrastructure that you need to create this new internet of the future. So and that's hard to do from a smaller country. So that's something we can bring to the table regionally in a story that we all need to work together on to get happening because it's so big. And so I think in areas like that, you don't start with the word space. You start with the quantum, in this case, quantum communications. How do you join quantum computers? If everyone talks about computing, it's been the only problem. But no one talks about how you connect two computers up. That's not easy, quantum computers. So how do you actually do that? Well, space does pay a big role there and it's something that Australia can bring to the table and we can be working with Japan on things like that. So we're starting to have those conversations. Disaster management is another one. For example, meteorology is a big one too. So Japan have very sophisticated assets in space. How can we improve their bandwidth by using optical communications, for example? So trying to build on the stuff that we're really good at individually already and then bring it together to solve something which is bigger than the sum of its parts, I suppose is the right way to start. Yeah, fantastic. I work in the energy space and often the bilateral economic relationship is talked about one that's highly complementary because we've got a lot of resources which have helped fuel Japan's economic growth for decades. But it is interesting, as you look across different sectors as you've just done now as well in this area that there are really substantial complementarities that exist in other areas as well. We very really focus on the natural resource piece but in other areas as well as you were saying before, you know, even lack of cloud cover, right? So I feel like being a big country like Australia is, it's just got some inherent advantages as it can lead to collaboration opportunities as you were describing. So Professor Yanima, I wanted to ask you about smart cities. And so it kind of, I remember this, I don't know if anyone here remembers the multi-function policy from 1987 Hawke regime, government, I mean, remember that? It was an idea, a meta-driven idea about building a city in Japan. I wanted to come at the issue of smart cities from a slightly different angle. And you know, in your initial remarks, and often when we think about a greater collaboration, let's say an energy transition, we think about it on a supply chain basis, right? So that is, is Australia gonna move up the value chain in battery manufacturing, right? Or in green steel, are we gonna start, you know, moving up the value chain? And smart cities is really interesting because it involves a lot of amalgamation or integration of multiple supply chains. It's a really quite complicated picture that's a struggle to do within a particular country. And so how international collaboration would happen between countries using a concept like smart cities is a complicated thing to think about. I would want to do that at a bilateral government to government level or an industry level, or would you think about carving off particular parts of the kind of smart city concept and pushing collaboration within that? How do you think you would progress something like that? Thank you very much. That's a very important question. Yeah, I'm actually looking for answer to that kind of question with my students and colleagues. Yes, so in a way, I think the idea of innovation has been also changing in the sense that traditionally we just talk about R&D investment, which is very important obviously in the case of semiconductor and others. But then increasingly the technology is used in an actual context like cities and then try to learn by using it and then making mistakes and then try to learn and then change it and then to improve it and then use it and then get feedback. So this kind of innovation is also getting quite important. And then in the case of smart cities, you have many stakeholders from different sectors which are not traditionally connected with each other but then that now we are getting connected like transportation, buildings, land use, and the energy and others. So that gives actually a big challenge to traditional Japanese companies, for example. When I talk with people in the companies, they say that well, usually they talk with they are just suppliers. They have relationships and then they know what they want. But then that increasingly they need to talk with companies in different sectors and also they need to talk with local government and then they need to talk with the citizens. So that requires I think different kinds of skills and knowledge and also they need to test these technologies on the ground by actually inviting users to use and then to get feedback from them. So I think in that context, we could think about, let's say, creating a kind of living laboratories together. Also international regulatory sandboxes in a sense that we discussed that there are so many challenges like privacy issue, data security, others. And we don't know how to solve these questions. So we just want to create a space together and then to test these advanced technologies maybe quantum communication might be also AI, IoT, blockchain, these are somehow, we don't know how to govern these technologies. So in that sense, we create a space together and then test it together and then learn together. So that kind of opportunities might be possibility for collaboration internationally. So I think in a way, I think Japan somehow tried to do that in ASEAN country like Thailand, for example, creating smart city and then inviting also local companies and then to do it. But then we could obviously do it with Australia or other countries and then try to demonstrate what are the issues, what are the problems and then we share the problems together and then to them. And then hopefully, by doing so earlier, then we can also propose regulations, policies, in a way, creating a kind of standard. So that would be something we could explore in the future. That's very interesting. I want to move to questions from the floor, but I did want to acknowledge, Missy has had a very interesting idea that you have around using sister city relationships as they exist in order to use as a potential platform for furthering collaboration between the two countries. That's an interesting idea because often we think about science agencies or ministries which have got science sitting within the portfolio as the key locus through which you might see collaboration happening. But particularly, as Professor Yarime said, if user feedback becomes an important part of actually the innovation process, then the kind of engagements that you've described is a very interesting idea and it's great to see you engaging locally already as a company. We've got about 10 minutes and I want to open the floor up to questions. I can see a hand waving up the back here. So let's begin here. There's a mic that will be coming to you. If you could just let us know your name and affiliation please, thanks. And also who you address the question to. Anita Burns, I'm from AJS New South Wales, among other things. I worked in technology in Japan and I just see that the governments established, the Japanese governments established a digital agency for I think for more digital government to promote that anyway. I'm curious about how that's going, how the two, Yarime, Sensei and Izuhara-san think what they think about that and about probably Softbank doesn't need that help perhaps, but how they see that and whether that's something that Australia should be emulating. So Mr. Hadid, do you want to start? Japan's digital agency and Softbank's engagement with that. You can pass if you want. Thank you so much for the question. Actually, honestly, you know, from my bottom of my heart, I need a chat GPT to answer the question. Anyway, I will try, okay? So actually, of course, to depend on the capability of the person to tell the truth what they are expecting the digital agency, what kind of technology they want to use. Everyone is different. That's the reason why I need to talk to them. So this is my understanding. And then, so luckily, Japan has so many, actually population is decreasing, but still have so many population when we compare the list of country to Japan. They can help the elder person to be, you know, body, to teach them to use new technology. Actually, so this time, so Sankutsu Shiro-san, I was here, I shared this YouTube with my dad and mom who are living in Japan. So actually, for them, first time, to see live stream, so how to join the live stream. I am helping them to access the live stream. So everyone, in short, everyone is different, but if the person had body, like my syllabus to talk to my parents, they can accept that technology to end their life. So this is my answer for your question. Thank you very much. I think that's a very important question. Probably some of the people here from the Japanese government can answer better than I do, but just a reaction to that. So I guess traditionally, there's a concern about the data put there by the government can be used for other purposes, which are not really mentioned in advance. So that was actually the case in the case of COVID-19. For example, in Singapore, they collected a lot of data and then they used some of the data for police investigation, for example, and that was not mentioned to the people in advance. So that kind of issue could arise. But then I think now, particularly after the COVID-19, we learned that we really need to use data more effectively and efficiently so that we can eliminate all the obstacles and barriers so that we can provide services more quickly and more accurately. So in a way, the challenge is that how we can manage data in a way that people do not necessarily need to have a concern about the data used for different purposes and properly managed and with accountability and transparency. So I think the understanding that the Japanese government is trying to do that, but there are some issues for those who are not necessarily familiar with all this digital system, the devices, and they may not be able to use it and what happened when they have lost the cars and the others. But then probably this is part of the process we need to deal with in a way that definitely we should really try to establish a system that the data can be used for providing services to people. Thanks. So let's go elsewhere, take the gentleman here. My name is Charles. My name's Charles Millwood. I run a point of sale software company targeted at the grocery and liquor industry. And like a lot of businessmen, we see AI coming down the tracks at us with great speed. So this is addressed at the two gentlemen who asked who addressed the issue of AI. How do you see AI evolving in the business community? Do you think it's going to become a very widespread technology and companies should develop their own AI capability or do you think it'll become a specialized technology which a few companies will sell more broadly into industry and develop specific expertise? Thank you very much. That's a very great question. To be honest, I don't know. But then, yeah, apparently obviously there are some really wonderful big tech companies like Google and Amazon and these companies. They have a huge large language model, for example. And then simply other companies cannot compete with them because they have resources and expertise. But at the same time, it seems to be that there are many applications and you really need to have a specialized system. So it seems to be there's a kind of divisive labor in the sense that some companies are big expertise and technology knowledge. They can really develop large language models with all the parameters. But then also you need to have a specialized companies provide educational services, health services, energy services. And then they really need to fine tune these systems to their specific applications. So, yeah, there's a lot of debate about how to regulate large language models, for example. And then it seems to be big tech companies that now somewhat try to argue that when in the EU, they really try to initially put a large language model or foundation models as a high risk domain so that they could be heavily regulated. But then they are trying to argue that, well, they cannot be responsible for all the applications because they don't know how their models can be used. So in a way that they are trying to argue that well, regulations should be applied to applications rather than large language models or foundation models which can be used for many different purposes. So I think in different domains that there are many expertise and you need to combine AI and domain knowledge. So how to combine them would be probably critical. So I think there are a lot of opportunities actually for startups to focus on particular domains rather than going into the arms race with all the big tech companies. So yeah, I think there should be many opportunities available but then how to do it depends upon how you can closely collaborate or the actors in specific domains and knowledge and experience. And Masaru, if I could just follow up quickly on that. So your expectation would be then that regulation would be primarily domain related and primarily national in character. Is there also a kind of international or collaborative perspective associated with regulation? Yes, thank you very much. I think that is what is exactly going on at this moment. So yeah, well, in April I attended a meeting by, I think organized by World Economic Forum by inviting all the big players in Silicon Valley in San Francisco and then they made a kind of proposal. And then I think in July, the G7 summit, then they started this Hiroshima process for AI. And then I think in November, UK government is going to organize a big event about how to regulate AI. And then I understand that each of its companies tried to make a proposal for G7 kind of plan to how to regulate all this AI. So internationally speaking, there are a lot of activities going on. But one challenge is that, as I also mentioned, that OECD and the GPAY, they are also quite important as hosting all these initiatives. But then probably that China is not involved. So I learned that the UK is going to invite China for the November meeting, but then I don't know how that happens. And in the case of April meeting, Chinese companies are invited, but then in the end, nobody came to that meeting. So it seems to be the AI governance area, a lot of kind of increasing division like G7 countries and affiliated countries, and then China and Russia and others. So how we can manage this would be, I think one of the key challenges in the coming years because AI affects everyone. So how to establish a kind of common ground or framework so that in a way, and then we can compete with each other, but then how to manage that would be a big challenge. Very interesting, thank you, Mr. Iida. Thank you so much for the question. So as you know, what need for AI? AI needs the data. So so many data needed for AI. So that's reason why, like Amazon, like Meta, like Microsoft, as Yalime-san mentioned, big company will be dominant in the AI market because they have plenty of data for AI training. So this is my answer for your question. At the same time, they cannot do everything. So that's reason why, as he mentioned, so needed to think about some specific use case. So for example, of course, chat GPT is good at English, so rather than Japanese. So to, you know, compliment the weakness of open AI. For example, we are working with open AI to deploy the version of Japanese for Japanese market. For example, previously, we worked with IBM Japan to deploy the version of Japanese for IBM Watson. So like this specification, everyone needed, despite they are big company, like Amazon, Meta, Microsoft. To answer your question, think about your specification, how you want to sell your product. So this is my understanding. Thank you so much. Thanks very much. I think that we're out of time and should probably move to close the session now. I'd just ask you to thank our speakers for today. It's been a really interesting session. So I'm just being asked to close the session for today. I'd like to thank everybody for staying for the day. It really brings home, you know, that Australia and Canberra and particularly the ANU is a pretty special place when it comes to, you know, Japan-related work. There are not too many places outside Japan where you will have a room full of people, you know, for a whole day where we focus on, you know, the kind of, you know, fairly un-technical and also detailed issues that we've been able to canvas today. It's a real kind of smorgasbord of different issues that we've looked at and we've heard some fantastic speakers. For me, there are kind of two or three major takeaways. I mean, obviously, a lot of terrific detail. And, you know, many of our speakers are here, so, you know, you can catch them afterwards, hopefully, as well. Firstly, the really significant changes which are going on in the Japanese economy. I was, you know, quite struck by that. I said, you know, I work in the energy and climate space, so I'm very focused on energy transition and what's happening to, you know, what is happening to the energy mix, for example, or how electricity markets are getting redesigned or so on and so forth. And I somehow missed this issue that we might have had a structural shift in which we've got kind of mellow inflation happening across Japan that could lead to an increase in wages over time. It's just kind of a world that I, you know, don't really remember. I remember the bubble, you know, I remember what happened after the bubble, but that kind of, you know, steady, you know, 2% inflation with wages growth as well is something that I was kind of really very, very, very struck by indeed. The other part of it, I guess, that was very interesting, aside from the macroeconomic picture, was also, you know, the discussions around changes in industrial structure. So it was, you know, very interesting to hear about this issue of, you know, as was discussed, diversification or reshoring or friendshoring, I guess, is another set of language that we've heard in and around this kind of issue. And, you know, in a way, it very much links to the panel that we had on foreign policy as well because that was really about, you know, states reinserting themselves into market in order to manage uncertainties as they see them, right? There's a whole bunch of geopolitical issues tied in there as well. So I think that, you know, doing an update like this every year is really important. Of course, we would talk about geopolitical changes, you know, that was part of the conversation last year. That'll be a part of the conversation next year as well, I'm sure, but within that broad change, structural changes like we've discussed with the economy, there are lots of smaller dynamics which are fluctuating relatively rapidly, right? We heard the discussion of ASEAN, for example, and also for Mike Green about this being the year of implementation when it comes to a whole series of different changes across Japan's defense posture, which have been really significant in Melanie Brock's comments as well on thinking about security more broadly and the changes that you're seeing in Japan and also Australia's need to do better were also really very welcome indeed. The last part, if I, you know, we've just heard the session so it's probably fresh in your minds. But, you know, I think that issue of kind of structural shift, you know, driven in this case by climate and, you know, government policy once again, you know, beginning to shape markets in significant ways in order to change the industrial structures of both Australia and Japan was a kind of key theme there. And, you know, my story, you know, as someone who's worked with and in Japan for, you know, really since the early 90s, you know, is that there are a tremendous array of different opportunities for collaboration that is complementarities between Australia and Japan. We often focus on natural resources, but as we heard from space and also as we think about technology issues including IT, robotics and AI, there's really a lot to explore. And, you know, the Australian government now and I think the Japanese government are also kind of building capacity in the area to be able to put themselves in a better position to be able to figure out how to exploit that through collaboration together. So I'm an optimist, too. I think Anna said she was an optimist by nature and, you know, I'm an optimist, too. So I think we'll have a lot to talk about in next year's update. Let me now hand the floor to Ipe to make a few thanks to people who have helped make today possible and then we'll close. Thank you. So, don't worry, two concluding remarks are too much. I know that, so I will be very short. And, you know, Ludo and I already offered a very comprehensible remark, so I would like to thank first of all the Shiro. So, Veronica and I started the Japan update 10 years ago, but the first event is rather easy because it's a new thing. I can get the funding rather easily. But the continuing 10 years is a significant job, so it's really thanks to the continuing effort by Shiro Armstrong. So, please support him to continue this event. And also I would like to thank that there are lots of stuff to help this event, so that, can you tell, Tess is here? Tess, Tess. Yeah, Tess is the boss, and Tess is the engine of this event. So, she did everything, and also her team helped the event quite a lot. So please join me in thanking for the student assistance. And the last, but not least, for those contributing in the session, as a presentation and the discussing and for all of you to participate in the event in a very active manner. Thank you so much. And as Shiro already mentioned, we have a schedule for next year, so that we usually have this event the first Wednesday in September, so it will be the September 4th, 2024. Keep it in your schedule. And it's a way advance, but they keep it in the schedule. And see you definitely next year. Thank you very much.