 You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is my pop, right? Today's episode, we have two of the most successful personal trainers in the world on this podcast. Today's episode, we're talking about how to become a successful trainer. Truly, if you want to become a trainer or you are a trainer and you want to do a great job, you're going to want to listen to this episode. Jordan Syat, you've heard of her, heard of him before, I'm sure. And his co-host on his podcast, another great trainer, Mike Vacanti, by the way, the podcast is called How to Become a Personal Trainer. You can find them on this link, fitnessbusinessmentorship.com. So again, if you're a trainer, you're going to love this episode. This episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, Seed. This is the world's greatest probiotic. There are no other probiotics that come close to this one for regulating gut health, reducing inflammation and just making you feel better. Go check them out. Go to seed.com forward slash mind pump. Use the code 25MindPump to get 25% off your first month's order of Seed's daily symbiotic. Today's giveaway on YouTube is MAPS PowerLift. To enter to win, leave a comment below this video. The first 24 hours we drop it, subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll let you know in the comments section. Also, this month's sale, MAPS Anywhere in MAPS Hit, both 50% off. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, here comes the show. Jordan, Mike, so glad to have you guys here. Mike, first time, Jordan, good to have you back. I want to start off because the way this happened, you and I were talking, we talk all the time, and I know you're doing some new things in the business. And I briefly kind of told the guys about it, but was super excited to not only share with our audience, but share with them. And so you could probably explain it much better than me. So kind of talk about what you had been doing business-wise and what you guys are currently moving into and what that looks like. Yeah. So first, thanks for having me. Yeah, love you, Mike. Seriously, I love you guys. Thank you. Basically, so we've been we've been building a business. It's called a mentorship, but the thing is, we see a lot of coaches, more and more coaches coming into the space, people who want to be coaches, who don't know how to be a good coach. And nowadays, anyone can go on Instagram and put in their bio. I'm a personal trainer and they post random combo exercises, which make no fucking sense, and all of a sudden they're a personal trainer. And so we see a lot of on the other end of it. We see a lot of people starting business mentorships as well, but with really terrible advice and that has no guidance on how to actually be a good coach. And so we wanted to bridge that gap between like, all right, well, how do we actually help people become a good coach in terms of yes, learning program design, exercise, queuing and technique, nutrition coaching, psychology systems and assessments like how to set up your online coaching and then also like client psychology, like understanding all the things it takes to be a good coach. So we also talk about sales and how to bring more people in. But what we found is that most if you are just a really good coach, the sales often come by themselves over a period of time. So that's like we have a business. It's just it's a subscription that just teaches coaches how to be better coaches and build their business. That's what we got. That's awesome. And how did you guys end up meeting? Or how do you guys know each other and tell the story? Yeah, we originally, well, I came across Jordan's content. I think it was 2012. Yeah. I was living in Chicago at the time. I actually I have an accounting background and went to school for accounting, worked at a big four accounting firm, hated it, quit to get in the fitness space. And it was in this like in between gap living in Chicago in a like a random, you know, den slash closet of my buddies paying them 300 bucks a month for rent, just like scraping by on my savings. And I launched a blog, like a fitness blog at the time. And remember sitting all the time and googling, like, why does my back hurt when I sit or something along those lines or back pain when sitting in Jordan SEO'd really high. I clicked on it and he had a video and, you know, some do this half kneeling, you know, don't be sitting in your chair. All these random things was like, oh, OK, I'm going to follow this guy. This was 2012 and had been following since many years later, you know, I think we first met when Gary was in the Boston area. Yeah, I reached out to him and was like, hey, I want to grab a coffee. And that was when we first met each other. So I didn't just reached out to him because of the blog and you just responded like, hey, I like your I like your your information. He left a comment. Well, OK, so you left a comment on the website. You're cute. And I replied. You're cute. What are you talking about? Yes. And I replied. But then like, we didn't talk for years after that. Oh, you know what? I remember in 2013, I was in New York City doing some like help. My roommate was a co-founder of Fatocracy. I don't know if you guys remember that. It was like a fitness gamification website app. And I was helping him recruit because they were launching a group coaching program. He was like, who would be good for this? I was like, oh, Jordan, I follow him. Like, I think he'd be pretty solid. And I reached out to you on Twitter. I remember DMing him 2013 or 14. Great opportunity. They have a massive email list. They're just launching their online coaching. And he was just like, nah, no, no, no, thanks. I didn't realize you were putting content out on the internet by in 2012. 2011 is when I started. Yeah. No shit. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. You were really early in the game. I did not know that. Yeah, man. Yeah. That's what we met though. And then he he was coaching Gary and then Gary Vaynerchuk. Oh, so a mic was coaching Gary first. Oh, I thought it was you for. OK, so you you meet. So tell me how you meet Gary and get started with Gary. It's a crazy story. Yeah. OK. So I quit my accounting job, moved to Chicago, living in this den closet thing, launched my website and randomly on Facebook, Gary's previous personal trainer had posted something about needing an intern, you know, unpaid internship, must live in New York City, must love dogs, like willing to work hard, get your nose dirty. And I didn't have any money coming in, savings were getting depleted. And I was like, I can live in New York City. Like, you know, why not? So I reach out, I apply in the comments, hit up his assistant on the side, go to his website, contact form like, hey, I'm the best for this, three or four days go by. I don't hear anything like, oh, man. And then his assistant emails me says two o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon. I remember it very distinctly and says, can you be in Soho tomorrow, five and 30 a.m. interview at this Starbucks? I was like, yeah, absolutely. Oh, shit. And so throw a bunch of clothes in a bag, go on kayak.com, book a one way spirit airlines and fly out. I have one suit because I'm thinking of counting days like I'm going to an interview, I'm going to dress nice for this, right? So I put on my one suit. I go into this, you know, fly out there. I have a buddy living in the city. Let me sleep on his couch in Harlem, wake up early, go down, interview with the assistant, get this unpaid internship and ended up staying in New York City, fast forward a year, start coaching Gary after, you know, Gary needed a new coach, Gary's previous coach had had moved across the country and yeah, started coaching Gary. A few months go by, Gary says, you know what? I know how I want to do this. I want like a full time employee. I want a babysitter. I want someone to follow me everywhere I go. Like if I'm about to eat a donut, you slap it out of my hand. I want you in my meetings. That's so demanding. Give me a water, your shot cards, family vacations, like everywhere. But I'm going to pay you a full time salary and we'll do a two year deal. Are you in or no, he said, do you know anyone who this might be a good fit for? And I was like, yeah, I'm very interested in this. And so that's that was July of 2014. When I first started coaching him for the two year stand before the casino story like early on, you started, this is great. OK, so, you know, popular, like Gary's a huge personality, right? Yeah, he's already he's already become pretty famous by this time already. Crush it, jab, jab, jab, right hook, like his head, a bunch of books, vaneers blown up, all the stuff. And I almost I don't want to say I threw my principles out the window to an extent. But when he's like, I'm going to pay you this much money, you follow me around. And for these first 90 days, don't let me eat anything bad. And I'm not going to sit here and give him the like, well, there's technically no good and bad things I think I usually try to do. He was like, no, no, OK, so if there's anything bad, any lost a ton of weight really quickly, I'm bringing him fish into the office like that. I'm cooking for him this disgusting and, you know, like, you know, shrimp, Caesar salads with dressing on the side, but you can't actually have the dressing like he was on a high protein, probably like probably like 1500 to 1700 calories and lost a bunch of body fat in those first 90 days. But I remember 30 days in he was judging Miss America in Atlantic City. We're at staying at I don't remember the hotel we were staying at, the Borgata in Atlantic City. And I come downstairs. I'm just walking down the casino floor and I see Gary and his brother and his best friends sitting at the blackjack table. I start walking over, just go say hi to those guys. And a waitress comes by as I'm walking up in the hands. Gary, this enormous like mocha hot chocolate with whipped cream on top. And in my mind, I'm like, that's not for him. Like, he would never order that. Why would he hire me to do this? If he was going to be ordering things like this? And he's like, thank you. Takes it, like starts to take a sip and then looks at me with this, like, I know I'm doing something wrong, but I'm pretending I'm not kind of confused look. And he's like, can I have this? Like, absolutely not. And he's like, oh, and I just take it. And there was a trash can sitting right there and I took it and he turns to his buddy and his brother's like, that's why I have Mike. He's the inquisitor. Wow. That's got to be so demanding to just. Yeah, when you didn't start to wear on you, that had to at one point, because obviously there's got to be an early, I imagine this is amazing. You're living in a closet, you know what I'm saying? You're willing to take a free internship. Now you got a two year contract with a basically celebrity who's taking care of your expenses. It's got to be probably pretty fun at the beginning and exciting. When does that type of, when does that start to shift from like fun to real work? I feel like it didn't shift until after the two years were up. Oh, interesting. Only because he was so like his messaging has changed a little bit over the years, but he was much more of, you know, talking about hard work, talking about entrepreneurship, talking about hustle. And I say that in a positive way because I benefited so much from it. But at the time I was just in it with him, meaning I was building my online business on the side. I was making content. I was building my online fitness coaching and learning so much from him that, you know, probably towards the end, I was burnt out and just didn't know it. And as a result of that, like stop making content for a while afterwards. But during the time, it was just like two years, very intense work was the primary focus. What a unique experience because for a trainer or coach, you'll never have a client that can do that or that'll do that, right? You'll never have a client that's going to pay you, follow me around. And a lot of people's, in fact, would probably say they would like to do that. I bet a lot of people were like, I wish I could have someone follow me around. But no, you don't. So it's a very unique individual that doesn't get annoyed, you know, month three where you're like, don't eat that, you have to eat this. Most people will be like, I don't want to do this anymore. But very unique situation and very different. Like, what are the things you guys, you did something similar with? I did the same thing. So Mike, Mike did his two years and then as the two years were coming up, Gary offered him the job again. Mike was like, no, I'm good. Like, you're like, OK, so I get that this is we're friends. You don't want the job. So you call your buddy. So do you like close the one? Oh, yeah, it's great. Boy, you're going to love it. It's so easy. Thank you so much. Was it like that? Was it like selling Jordan or like how awesome it is? But inside you're like, fuck this, I ain't doing this no more. I don't think I did. I have to sell you on it. No, no, it was well. I mean, at that point, Gary was getting really big. Yeah. And this was a huge opportunity. It was a major opportunity. And you put out something being like he's looking for a new coach and I reached out and I was like, hey, I would like to be considered for it. And and basically so we started talking and then I ended up moving to Israel. So I was living in Israel and then finally, Mike is like, all right, out of nowhere. So I'm living in Israel, I'm in Tel Aviv. And and Mike goes, I get on nowhere. He's like, hey, do you want to still be considered for this? It's a month later. I was like, yeah. And Mike goes, OK, well, you need to fly to New York and coach Gary and have an interview with him because Mike wasn't the one choosing. Gary was the ultimate one choosing. And and I was like, OK, cool. This is in February of 2016. And and I'm thinking and I said to him, I said to Mike, OK, cool. I have a wedding in June that I have in the States that I'm coming back for. I'll do it in June. And Mike says, you need to come here this week because Gary's like you need to have it this week. And I was like, oh, man, like and my mom is coming on her first ever trip to Israel like that I'm paying for in two weeks. And in Israel, it's like the security is insane. So if you are not a citizen, you leave the country and come back very quickly. It looks odd. Right. So I was worried that I wasn't going to be able to get back in. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. He's like, listen, you guys, if you want the job, you're going to do it. So I was like, screw it. I book a flight, fly to New York. I don't tell anybody in Israel. No one knows my roommate thought that I was just like out just like for today, I go to New York, go to your apartment at like five in the morning, coach Gary, leave and I get back to Israel within 36 hours. And I hear nothing for six weeks. I hear nothing. We had like 300 applications. I think maybe five people interviewed. Yeah, they're like five people who interviewed actually with Gary. Wow. So I don't hear anything. So six weeks go by and like after a month, I'm like, maybe I just didn't get it. So I reach out to Mike. He's like, yeah, we're still thinking nothing. Finally, I get a text message. I'm in my family's house in the north in Haifa. And it's like 10 o'clock at night there. So it was like 2 p.m. in New York. And but I get a text message from an unknown number. And and it just goes, are you ready? That's all it said. And so then I think it's very Gary. Six weeks later, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. So I said, who the fuck is this? That's what's going to happen next week. And then I get a picture of Gary shirtless and flexing. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I was you and he didn't reply. And I was like, I fucking lost the job. Oh, my God. So then I moved to New York and then my Mike did two years and I did three years of that. And it was and I tried to go. I was like, could we do two? And Mike was like, it's got to be three. I was like, all right. Then I did three. And it was I definitely became disenchanted with it far sooner. Like I really like, there were three times in the first six months, I almost quit in the first six months. It was it was devastating because like it was devastatingly difficult. It was really brutal and like because of the demand. The demand was difficult. I also, you know, I had travel. You can't live your own life. Nothing. Yeah, nothing. And people would say like, oh, it's so amazing. You get to your life is basically a vacation. You go to Tokyo and then you go to London and then you go to wherever and you get to see all these places. It's like, no, I get to see the inside of a hotel room or these places while I'm working and then I coach Gary and work. Yeah, we're grinding. We're building our businesses. And Gary doesn't sightsee like he's grinding himself. Yeah, exactly. Like we go from New York. There was one trip I'll never forget one from New York to Ireland. We were in Ireland for eight hours, coached him in Ireland from Ireland to Amsterdam, Amsterdam for like 16 hours. Directly to LA. It's like, he's not sightseeing. You go there, you coach him, you leave. That's it. And so if you've ever been in an airport and had a really fucking awful time in an airport, imagine doing that like three to six times a week. And then also doing nevermind coaching the client, Gary, but then online coaching clients, membership, like you have trying to make content. Like it's, it's insane. It was, it was insane. So I became disenchanted with it. And we, Gary and I would butt heads more. Mike is, is much better with that than I am. Gary was like, I want you to come to, like, if I go out to a restaurant, you have to be there and like, you have to watch me eat. And I would be like, Gary, he doesn't just have one dinner. It's like, he has like three or four dinners in a row because he has meetings at the restaurants. And so like for the first like six months, like I was trying to do it. And I was going, Mike just did it all the time. Mike would go to all the dinners. I think he might have said expectation. Gary might have set expectations better for me than I did for Jordan, could have been. So I'm like, I'm going to the restaurant and I'm sitting there, but like, and I have my computer and like, I'm trying to find outlets to plug in at these super nice restaurants so I can sit at the bar while I'm watching Gary eat and like, is he ordering dessert? No. And like crazy. And finally like, I just like would stop showing up to dinner and Gary would be like, I need you to show up. And I'd be like, and like at the morning workout, he'd be like, I need you to come to dinner night. And it'd be like, yeah, yeah, cool. And I just wouldn't show up. And Gary like gives a lot of rope. Like he's like, he's like, OK, like I'm not just going to be pissed. But like then he would put on a few pounds and then he'd be like, hey, you need to show up to like no jokes that you have to show up to dinner. And then I would like show up to dinner for a couple of weeks and then I would stop doing it. It's just it was brutal. Oh, my God. So you guys became close to the shared suffering. Yes, yes, exactly. Because you know, my favorite part about here, because I've actually never heard your entire origin story like that, both of you. And it's so great that you mean, you guys are in the business of helping coaches and trainers. I feel like that's what we do the same thing. And, you know, the fact that this started in 2011 with you writing blogs out into the ether, you found him that way. You get connected that way. You go get Gary V first, you train him. That's like, what an incredible journey. And you take a job as an intern for free, right? You're like, broke. I'm living in class. I mean, such a lesson for so many of these coaches and trainers who want because we live in this instant gratification life. Right. I want to build viral on the internet. And then I want to be rich tomorrow and training athletes. It's like, come on, dude. Like I wrote blogs into the ethernet for years and years and years. I live in a closet that took a free job out of a city I didn't live in. And then I, you know, I just think that's so important. And it makes so much sense to me now because we met way later. I mean, and all the guys and I, when we first came across your content, I was like, dude, this guy gets it. Like he's, he really gets it. And it's so obvious you guys have gone through so much of the stuff that. So everyone probably does this to you too. I imagine as coaches, they see the success now and they want, but what they don't realize and just like this show, it's like, it really was the 15 years before this that made this and made what you guys do. It's such a testament to that. Yeah. It's such a passion driven industry in the sense that if you don't have a deep passion for what you guys did, first of all, you wouldn't be able to do it. Correct. Even for the average trainer, you guys, that was extreme, but even for the average trainer, you're training six people a day. Let's say you're dealing with different personalities. You got to, you know, most of them don't listen to what you have to tell them. Most of them are going to, if you don't have like a deep passion and love for this, this job sucks. Correct. Period. Yeah. If you have a deep passion, then it's okay. It becomes rewarding. Well, that's, that's such an important point because I hear coaches like in that position and other positions, but that one specifically where they'll be like, they don't like what they do. And they'll, I always know that they don't like what they do because they'll say the same thing. They'll say it's not my job to motivate you. And I'm like, that's exactly like, just the program design, the exercise technique, like that's one part. But like, what the fuck do you think you signed up for? If not to help motivate someone. And if you're like getting mad that someone needs your help and your encouragement, you're in the wrong fucking job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. There's so many layers to what you just said, too, because it's like, then you then you get the trainers who understand, OK, I need to motivate them, but their way of motivation is like the wrong approach to versus the way it's not effective. The real way to motivate somebody is understanding the psychology of what makes this person tick and learning the way to like leave breadcrumbs to get them to figure these answers and solutions out. So it turns into a lifestyle versus motivating. Like they think motivated. They think, oh, shirt off, yell at them, you got this. You want to look like me? We got to do this. It's like, no, that's not what I mean by motivation. Exactly. I just watched this this great podcast with and I thought this applied perfectly to what we do with Jordan Peterson. He was talking about like when he treats people for depression or anxiety, and he says, well, why don't you just tell him what to do? And he goes, advice doesn't work. He just tell people what to do. And he goes, number one, it doesn't work. But number two, if someone just did what I told them, I would rob them of really finding the joy in figuring out because it's their problem, not mine. I'm like, oh, my God, this is that's what training is because we don't just tell people what to do. You have to lead them and guide them to find those to figure those things out. Yeah, you know, absolutely. And that's great. You brought him up. He's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So you guys, after this, after you guys did that, so you guys had this shared suffering, you do show through this, when did you guys reconnect to do what you're doing now? So, well, I was coaching Gary near the end of my three years. Mike like got back into it. Mike was like, I sort of like want to get back involved again. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did the structure of having like that one client every single day because I was just online at the time then. So you left and then you were doing online coaching? Only online and making content. I took on a couple of projects where I was helping people in person, but it was 97% online, which is essentially a desk job. And I love the hybrid mix of in-person and online. And so for that reason, I was yearning to get back. I knew his three years were up and I was like, I don't know what you're planning on doing after these three years, but maybe I could get back in the mix or I was like, absolutely. And then we were like, he would come on trips. And so he'd be at Gary's vacation house and just be hanging out. And we were, I don't know how the idea came up for this, but I remember like sitting at his kitchen table like two in the morning scribbling on like a piece of paper, like an idea for the mentorship. What is now the mentorship in 2018, 2017? Yeah, 2018. And list of courses. Yeah. And you were at a point where you're like, I don't want to make content anymore. At all, like, hates content. Yeah, I feel that. Hates content. I feel that. And so basically we're like, well, how are we gonna do this? And we decided a podcast. So like we've had a podcast since like 2018 or something. Yeah, 2019. We thought, how can we make it fun? And what do we like doing? Which is just sitting down and talking about whatever. Which is in dollars. And you guys were our inspiration for that, by the way. You literally used Mind Pump as the, he was like, I love how they just sit down and they just talk shit. And he was just like, you chat, you don't censor yourselves. We have no idea how it worked out, by the way. It's just, and he was like, that's the only type of content I'll be willing to make is where I can just have fun with it and talk about whatever I want to talk about. And that's how our podcast was born through the inspiration of your podcast. And then that's what we've been doing for, and it's just for, it's like literally, we tried to SEO it super well. So we were like, all right, it's the, how to become a personal trainer podcast. It's literally like, all right, what are people searching? How to become a personal trainer. That's literally it. But a lot of it is just us talking shit, and then a little bit of that as well. Cause we just want to have fun. Isn't that what it's like training clients? Yeah. 80%, we're having a good time, 20% I'm teaching ya. Yeah, that's a good time. Well, that's when we, I remember, that was one of the things that we noticed, cause obviously we've been doing this now almost 10 years. And even before that, we were like, okay, scouring the internet and the podcast space and like listening. And back then there was like Sean Stevenson, Ben Greenfield, Rich Roll, there's a handful of them. And when we listened to it, it was like, none of this sounds like the conversation I had with my clients. And we really thought like, I want to bring that dynamic. I want to bring people in to, and this is exactly what it sounds like. There's a bullshit and about personal stuff, drama, stuff going on, but then there's science and good information that's gonna, you can apply to your life and better. And I'm like, that was really kind of, that was the most structure that we had. It was just like, we got to be able to, we got to make sure every time they hear the episode, they walk away with something applicable to their life to improve their health and fitness journey. But for the most part it was keeping them engaged so they want to come back. Which is what you did as a, that was part of the motivation part was like, I can't just tell them X's and O's if they don't like coming to see me, they're not gonna show up to their next appointment. Yeah, and we appreciate what you guys do because you're filling a need. I think trainers and coaches for a while there, now there's good, there's people like you out there, not a ton, but like you guys do a great job of really teaching coaches how to be really good and effective. Certifications didn't do that. They teach them kind of X's and O's, but nobody really, and you call it, you name mentorship, that's perfect. For a long time I thought, trainers need a mentor. How do you learn this without really having an experienced trainer that you can follow around, teach you that kind of stuff. So when you guys got into the space, what were the needs that you saw that you wanted to fill? Was it a lot of that? There's such a hyper focus, still is. So there was then, you know, call it 2018, 2019, but still is on making more money. And on like trying to get people into masterminds and these business gurus whose primary sales tactics are, you can make 30K a month. Like someone who isn't coaching any clients sees a pre-roll ad on YouTube and it's like, oh, I can get rich working in fitness? Like I like working out, why don't I do that? Which is so frustrating. One, it's much harder to make $30,000 a month as an online fitness coach than some of these people will lead you to believe, but it's also like people who enter the industry for that reason aren't gonna stick around. No, you're not gonna be able to sustain that. Even if I proved you, I can show you the funnels and all the tricks to get $30,000, good luck keeping that. By the way, that's what the good ones do is they teach you how to make $30,000 once. But then you're done. We don't show you how to keep it. Now you gotta service all these people you just sold. But that's why, and this might be getting two into the weeds, I don't know, but most of our coaches in the way we've always ran our business isn't a high ticket upfront sales structure. It's monthly recurring revenue because we don't wanna have $10,000 or $5,000 or whatever sales package upfront so that then you can mark it and say, okay, this business coaching client made $60,000 a month. So that's what they're doing a month. And then you think, oh, they're doing 60K months. They're making a lot of money. It's like, no, they sold 10 packages at 6K a month. Now they have to service them for this next year. That's their year. It isn't the same current as monthly recurring revenue. No, so there's so many examples of why this is terrible for the industry. Because I never thought I'd see this, but we saw this in the gym industry first. The gym industry, we saw people come in. We worked for 24 Fitness late 90s, early 2000s when they were the leaders in the gym space. But then we saw people come in who had no idea, they didn't work in fitness. These were people that worked in other areas, other industries who came in and saw these gyms and said, oh, you have more locations than everybody. You have all this equipment. All we gotta do is put the prices up on a menu, make you guys cheaper than everybody and you'll crush. And remember those of us in the fitness space were like, oh, this is not gonna end well. Another example would be curves. I don't know if you guys remember curves. These were these little tiny gyms with pneumatic equipment and they exploded. At one point they were the number one franchise in the country. But I remember going in, seeing if I wanted to buy one and meeting these owners and none of them were fitness people. They were all business people. I said, oh, this is a good business opportunity. Fitness has to be passion first, otherwise you're totally screwed. Correct. And so we saw this with the coaching industry, especially around COVID. All of a sudden I saw all these people marketing how you can make tons of money being an online coach and all of us were like, oh, this is not gonna be good. This is not something you go into to make money. Correct. This is something you go into because you love and then, hey, let's figure out how to make money doing this. So you guys feel the same way. Yeah. Well, and that might have worked at the beginning of COVID because we saw a massive spike in demand for online fitness services with gyms shut down temporarily. And so if you just look at supply demand, like there was an opportunity to get more coaches online. But yeah, you need to want to help people. And it sounds corny and cliche almost, but it's so true that that has to be your primary reason for getting in the space if you want to last. And even if you want to succeed in general. Yeah, so when you guys are fielding people, do you find people that come in for the wrong reasons and then you tell them, yeah, this isn't for you? It's funny. So we can always tell who's gonna do well, not always. We have a very good idea of who's gonna do well from the beginning based on stuff that they say and an application process. Like if someone's like, yeah, I'm a high ticket coach. If they say they're a high ticket coach, they're not gonna do well. That's a reflection. It's like the worst, it's the ultimate red flag. It's like, what the fuck does that mean you're a high ticket? Like when I was coming up, it was like, means I take pictures in front of my Lamborghini and I sell people $500 an hour of training or whatever like that. It's such a weird thing to say for me. It's like, no one, when I was coming up, identified their coaching strategy with how much they charged. It was what they did in their coaching. It was like, I'm a performance coach. I'm a bodybuilding coach. It's value, yeah. I'm like, I'm whatever functional coach, whatever it is, you're a high charging coach. What a stupid fucking thing to say. So that is the number one thing that we're like, listen, if you wanna charge a lot, that's fine. But when you come into this, that's not what we teach. Again, we teach how to be a really good coach and we'll absolutely teach. Cause some people they struggle with a sales call. They struggle with that. And so that's a valid thing to struggle with. Let's talk about it. And oftentimes the ones who really struggle with a sales call are the best coaches. They struggle to sell. And that's a fine thing. And we'll discuss that. But usually the more confident you get in your ability to coach, the easier it is to make sales period. Like the less you actually have to sell. That's very true. You know what's interesting? It's such a reversal. When we were managing trainers, all of them wanted to do it because they love training people. So everybody had to learn sales and building the business. All of a sudden I'm hearing more and more about coaches coming in who were like, I know sales, it's like, but I don't know how to coach or train people. I'm like, oh my God, I thought that was like, like step one. It's just weird that we're gonna have to teach you actually how to train and coach people. It's an interesting paradigm shift that we're in because you're right. It's so opposite. And it is, I do feel like it's like the number one thing that we have to combat when we're talking to these coaches is there is this expectation that you can make a lot of money really fast. Because so many of the things that are sold, these mastermind groups and you give me $30,000, we'll show you how to make that back in 60 days. And there is some truth to it, but it's the retaining part and then maintaining. It's like it's just service. You're not gonna be able to do that. And it's funny because I think it mirrors the same conversation that I have with fat loss with clients. Yes, 100%. We market to everybody about how you can lose 30 pounds in 30 days and it's like, okay, yeah, that's possible, but try maintaining that as a lifestyle forever. It's very similar. It's like the right way, actually, this might take us a year or two to get there and learn all the behaviors and the psychology around it and implementing that lifestyle change and building some muscle and then losing a little bit, then building some muscle again and this plateaus, like that's like what building a business looks like. And anybody who's out there selling you on this idea that you're gonna be making X amount of dollars in a certain amount of days, I'm sorry. I'm sure like the whole social media culture in general has provided this misguided perception that it's all about growth, right? It's all about how many people are paying attention to you and then we can convert all of them and it's a numbers thing and what we find, how hard is it really to scale even online? How many people can you really provide amazing service to within a month? People have to really take a good close look at that. How many people do you guys have any coaches you guys have in your program? How many people are you guys working with? About 120 right now. Awesome, awesome. Yeah, one thing that we were just made privy to you recently is that some of these coaches at scale, they'll be like, I grossed X amount of dollars, but then you look at their profits and it's like they're slim because they've hired all these coaches under them to look at their total. So it's like you have 30 employees and you're actually profiting as much as if you did it by yourself. Yes. Well, that's like, do you wanna be a coach or do you wanna be a CEO is the question because if you really wanna be a CEO and run a company and have super high margins, have a bunch of employees that you're managing and maybe do a really impressive top line and you can tell people like, oh yeah, I made 1.5 million or we grossed 1.5 million but really your take home is, I don't know, 200, which is great, but that's a lot of work to make $200,000 compared to more of like a solo,preneur, one man, one woman show where you are the only employee, maybe an assistant or maybe like a contractor, videographer, someone to help you with content. But if you have 50 online coaching clients and they're paying you $300 a month each, you can service that like, obviously you're not onboarding everyone at once. You build that over a number of years but to maintain that is pretty reasonable and less stressful and a better like end goal pursuit for someone who is really focused on helping people rather than someone who is more into the business side. You guys are the guys to ask for this because I only did a little bit of online coaching, very, very little just to kinda see what it was like but I always did in person and I would find it challenging to teach someone to be able to coach properly online if they've never done anything in person. Okay, so you agree. So what's that conversation like? Someone wants to come onboard, be an online coach. They don't train people in person. What's the advice or how do you work them through that? We've said for years, being a great in person coach will help you become a better online coach. Being a great online coach or coaching people online will not help you become a better in person coach. You need to coach people in person to be the best possible online coach. And so a lot of the people that we work with are really everyone but a lot of we'll say people between 25 to 60 but we'll say even 35 to 60 and maybe they have kids and they can't take an unpaid internship and do this. One of the big things that we recommend is coach people in your garage. Coach people in your area. If you have a neighborhood around you, coach people for free, get your neighbors involved. Just having one or two people that you coach a couple of times a week for free will give you not only amazing experience and teach you exercise technique, exercise queuing, understanding more client psychology, what they're struggling with, common issues but then also you can't coach someone in person and not get content ideas. Can you go a little deeper into why in person would benefit online so much? You mentioned a few of them queuing, exercise technique, whatever. Can you go into like what in person teaches you that then you can apply to online and why it's so hard to just do that online if you've never trained anybody in person? You wanna start? This could be a whole fucking book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's important because we have a lot of trainers and coaches or people who wanna be trainers and coaches who just wanna go online and I can't imagine how challenging that would be having never trained people in person. Yeah, yeah. When for fitness enthusiasts who get into the industry who may be made amazing progress themselves, they're good at coaching themselves. Their age bracket, their injury history, their strengths and weaknesses. So they can program for themselves or someone like them but it's not until you're in a gym setting and working with, okay, 84-year-old Barry who has a knee replacement and can do this and can't do this or you're queuing the desk worker who doesn't have very good posture and trying to get her to do a row properly, like you're not gonna learn that online but you will learn that in person, coaching clients. I'll never forget. I'll never forget this. I was coaching in person because I had coached in person for like 10 years before I went online. A guy came into this gym I was working at and it's hard to describe in words how disconnected he was from his body. I've had people like that. Absolutely. Talked about this. There's not in there running, get up out of the ground. It was truly like watching an alien, like he had no idea. Even like trying to get into a glute bridge, I was like, drive through your heels and like he would like drive through his head. I'm like, this is great. And so I'm like, can I put my hands on you and like try and get you to get you in the right position? And it's like through doing that, you learn trial and error, like yes queuing but also how to speak to different people in different ways. It's things that online, you give them the program. And like, yeah, they can send you videos and you can give them some cues but like if you haven't coached in person, it's gonna be very difficult for you to like understand, oh, this is the mistake that they're making. This is the way that I queue this person to do this. This is like, oh, this person's not, they haven't logged their workouts for two weeks. What can I say to this person or how can I communicate with this person? But you don't learn this online, you learn it in person. I'll give you an example, right? So a typical queue for, let's say a lap pull down, we use a very conventional, easy exercises, pull the bar down to your chest, okay. If you're not watching the person and it's somebody who doesn't understand how to move their body, oftentimes it'll look like this, like they'll roll forward and bring the bar to their chest. Whereas a trainer training in person probably learned after years of training people that if I tell the person to bring their chest to the bar, then they're more likely to pull their chest up and do it properly, right? Both of them kind of sound the same, but they don't result in the same technique. One of them tends to result in the right technique where the other one could be, or oftentimes it isn't. And if you don't train people in person, you'll never know. The guy would be like, yeah, I'm bringing the bar down to my chest, like you said. Good job, why is my shoulder hurt? I don't know, because you have no idea. So what would you say are the top, like the characteristics in your guys' experience of coaches and trainers that actually build a good, sustainable career? Like what are the things that somebody coming into this? Like what are the characteristics that you say are, okay, this is what makes a good coach or trainer? I mean, so it's funny, like when I think about fitness, the number one thing is, it has to be something that is like consistent. They have to be consistent with it, same thing with building a business. You have to number one, be consistent. But I think consistent comes with passion, like we spoke about, you have to enjoy it, but not just enjoy working out yourself. Like you have to enjoy coaching, two very different things. Very different. Very different, working out, enjoying working out and enjoying coaching, like not the same at all. You could even spend some time here, by the way, because someone listening right now who's a fitness fanatic who's like, I'd love to be a personal trainer. No. It's not the same. Yeah, it's because you're working with people who don't wanna work out. They don't enjoy it. Well, it's like the same thing of saying like, I love my kids, therefore I'm gonna go be a teacher. You know what I'm saying? I can love my kids, but then not have any, like the patience. You don't like other kids. To have a classroom of other people's kids. Yeah, it's a great point. And that's literally what it's like. It's like, oh, I love to work out because I follow everything I think I wanna do, but like, okay, well, coaching's nothing like that. It's more like being a teacher full of a classroom of kids. And you have to really have a heart or passion for that and be patient. Be a chameleon. Yeah, and also like this level of like ownership, right, like one of the things that I, you know, I recognized it myself as a trainer and I tried coach teaching my trainers to have this, is that everything is my fault. If a client doesn't adhere to the diet, if a client doesn't get better at this exercise, they don't show up. It's not, oh, they're lazy. Oh, this, it's like, okay, what did I, what did I not do to get through to that person that this is what we needed to do or motivate? How can I communicate this? Yeah, and you have to like that. You have to like that process of failing a lot because most of your clients are gonna fail and not get their results. And be willing to look inward and go, where can I figure this Rubik's Cube out? What am I not doing for that type of a person? And I also think that feeds into your points about the online coach is this ability, when you've done this in person for long enough, you can now forecast what the problems that are probably gonna happen. Like I can tell by someone's assessment with me, the verbiage they're using, their history of what they're eating and what they've done in the past, the way they self-talk about themselves, the way they do their squat assessment. I can tell you so much where their pitfalls are gonna be with their diet, what their pitfalls are gonna be with their inconsistencies, where their impatience is gonna be around, weight loss. I can tell probably too with the squat systems I'll be able to tell what they're gonna have aches and pains on certain sides of their body before they even do the squat. And that's so powerful when you have that ability to now be virtually with someone and they go like, yeah, my right side of my low back hurts today. And I don't know why. I was like, well, that's because you had that asymmetrical shift. And when you were squatting probably yesterday, you probably, and you know, so that, so like how do you get that online without seeing that in person and know how to communicate that? You know, it's funny, before we started the podcast, I think we were talking about, cause you guys both trained Gary and, you know, you and I were talking earlier and I said, oh, he's probably the kind of client that you have to pull back all the time. And you're like, absolutely. Now I only know that because I've worked with so many people that I could tell right away over Achiever, this is the client that's gonna wanna over train. This is the client that's gonna wanna go super intense all the time. So you could sort of place them in. But again, the variables are vast, but at least that gives you like a starting point of like, oh, I've seen this before. And that's where the in-person training, you know, you can't really establish that if you don't go through that. So passion was the first one. Other characteristics. The next is knowledge. It's like, and it's just funny because I see everyone wanting to be famous on social media and wanting to like build like a, it's so crazy. I've found that coaches and people in general, but coaches, they care more about followers than anything else, followers and likes. It's just like, it's so ass backwards. We get a lot of applications to the mentorship and the two things that we'll see that are red flags often are, I really want to grow my social media following. Like I want a big social media following or I want to make and they insert a dollar amount in timeframe. I want to do $10,000 months by summer. And those are two, yeah, of these just backward priorities. Yeah. It's also reminds me of the fat loss analogy. That's like a client who's like, I want to look like J.Lo and I'd like it to happen within the next three months. Exactly. Well. It's pool season. Exactly. You don't have that kind of ass and we're all pretty far off from that right now. This is Johnson, you're 72. It's crazy because I feel like when we were coming up, no one wanted to be a personal trainer. No. My family looked down on me. I have family. Yeah, I feel like you're telling me what if I get a real job? Yes, 100%. My mom will still be like, you could always go back to school, like be a doctor. Still, it's like, so it's one of those things where now I think people want to do it because I think what happened is during COVID, whatever it is, someone hired an online coach, they really enjoyed working out doing it. And then they saw, oh, well, wow, if they have this many clients and they must be making this much money, it's easy, they can do it at home. I want to do it. And so it's become very accessible and people are more excited at the thought of people liking them on social media than they are at the thought of becoming very knowledgeable in this field. And for, I know for me, and I know Mike, and I'm sure all you guys, the thought of becoming very knowledgeable was like the most exciting thing. It's funny now, like I'm not sitting down reading super training now, but like I used to sit down and like read super training and science and practice of strength training. And like, that would be like my day. And I would just be, I would stay, I wouldn't go out to party. I would just be like, I just want to read Lyle McDonald's website. I want to read just all this. It's, I feel like very few people want to do that now. And that has to be, that's equally as important as passion, like knowledge and passion. I guess they feed into it. They do, right? So what are some great resources for knowledge, would you say for a coach today? You just listed a couple, right? I mean, yeah. I mean, I don't, Alan Aragon's research review. Yeah, it's amazing. That's great. It's amazing. I mean, you guys have a mentorship as well. You have a course you guys launch. We do. And then the podcast also, we talk to trainers so much through the podcast. And it's so conversational. It makes it easier to kind of. Well, we kind of thought, I mean, that was the also part of the plan, right? Of building this was like, we wanted to become like one of the main resources of like, if you had a question, which is also, we have an AI tool. I don't know if I've ever told you that or not, but you can do. You do? Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that. Askminepump.com. No way. Yeah, yeah. And you can literally type in of any question you can think of and we've probably talked about it in depth or have written a paper about it. Wow. That's genius. Yeah. And that was kind of the, and so even when we create a content. Until it comes alive and then it takes over. Yeah. But even if it pulls from like every episode, you guys have to stop it. Yeah. And it'll actually answer in one of our voices. So like, let's say it was Sal who addressed like a peptide question or like that. It'll be like, there it is right there. So like, Doug can prompt it to ask whatever. It'll talk to you as an AI tool and answer the question. And then it'll reference all the episodes. That is insane. Right? Yeah, yeah. Level. You're on a different level. Serious. Well, this is, I mean, all the things you guys are talking about, I mean, this is why we align so much is because we saw all the same things and we've been just for 10 years now trying to fill all those gaps and those needs. You know, I want to say, I want to add to something that, to the social media, because I find this fascinating. I think this is an interesting conversation. I also think what has fed into this online explosion of all these trainers is also the insecurities and narcissism. Meaning so many of us get into fitness because of our insecurities. I went to the gym for the first time because I was skinny and was insecure about that. And that's what motivated me. Now, hopefully over your journey of being a trainer for decades, you evolve beyond that so you can help people. But a lot of these young coaches and trainers are still stuck in that. And then this reflection of these pictures of yourself with your shirt off is just feeding that shit. 10 light years, 15 light years. And then people telling you like, Oh my God, you look so amazing. I want to be like, it's just empty though. It's just filling that even more. And so I think it's like this snowball effect of the wrong people are getting the most amount of attention because they are still like a client working through their own insecurities. And so yeah, I think that's part of the monster. We see this like not to completely change topics but like I am completely changing topics. We see this like with like people showing their whole bodies like only fan stuff. It's like they get all this attention. It feels amazing. And so like they just keep doing it. And so we see it with personal trainers but only fan stuff like that's people get in this trap of like, I get all this attention. This must be great. And it just feeds that insecurity. You know, cause you went in this way. I think it's interesting if everybody could experience what that would be like to have lots of eyes on you and it not turn into money, not become meaningful, not be real friends, they would see just how torturous. It's not just that it's worthless. It's actually torturous. It's not great. It's actually the least favorite thing about or the thing I like least about what we do is just people knowing me. Now if I provide them value and meaning that that's totally different. But having eyes on me for what? It's so weird. You want to be watched? You want people to see like, that's such a terrible thing. Well, I get it. Filling that's feeding that insecurity. Which just makes it bigger. Yeah, yeah. And it makes it worse. And so it's like, it's interesting cause I think, this is a discussion it'll be fun to have with you guys. We always talk about this like with the access of all this knowledge that we have and AI tools and great stuff like that. Are we getting better or worse as a society in relation to health? I mean, all the metrics say no. We're getting unhealthier, fatter, worse. Yet there's more access to great information, great coaches, great knowledge. So what is it? I mean, are we doing more harm than we are good with all this stuff that we're putting out on the internet? Has it just gotten harder? I mean, what do you guys think about that? That's a great question. What do you think? I don't know the answer, right? I don't have a definitive answer. I think increase in sedentary, I mean, this is not just the last five to 10 years and technology related, but even the last 100 years, just more sedentary jobs and people moving around less. The massive increase in hyperpalatable foods, which are very hard to restrain oneself from for most people, right? Millions, billions of dollars being spent scientifically engineering the most delicious thing and then selling it. The combination of those two makes it very hard to maintain a healthy body composition. I've been thinking a lot about this and I think the growing market in health and fitness is helping, I do. I don't think it's fixing it. I think we're trying to keep up, but the world is changing so we're more, because now you brought two things up, right? Hyperpalatable ultra-processed foods, which directly, that's probably the biggest factor to obesity, right? These drug-like effects from foods are just engineered to do so. The sedentary lifestyle that we all, we now designed the world to be so sedentary that you have to go out of your way and schedule movement. But now you have society being designed around being lonely. So we've substituted human interaction with computer interaction and social media. I don't know if you guys have seen the data on kids and how little they see other kids and they talk to each other online, which is not the same thing, doesn't provide the same thing. And I think our space is trying to keep up. And the reason why I think we're doing, we're not, we can't keep up, it's moving too quickly, but we're doing better because I just started going to a commercial gym. I hadn't worked out in commercial gyms for years. So I got to see a contrast. I'd never seen so many people lift weights properly. Yes, yep. Nobody worked out properly strength training before, nobody, it was rare. I'm seeing like girls, guys, kids, older people, squatting, deadlifting, over-opressing, like that didn't happen before. So I think that we're moving in the right direction. It's just hard to keep up. That's my opinion. I completely agree with that. And I like, you go into a commercial gym, you see people, not like, I never used to see people deadlifting, squatting, never mind with good technique. Like, and it's, you see it, it's pretty awesome to see that. My thought is with that is, is that just the group that who would have been working out anyway, and now they have better access to better information so that I'm not wasting time doing stupid shit? But what about like the overall population? That's my thought. And like, man, if the trend is bad, like I'm just interested to see what's gonna happen over the next 20, 30, 40 years. Like is the trend gonna go down now that we have more access to this? I don't know. My main concern right now is how much people are stuck with their phone and their fucking face, not moving, being alone, lonely, watching the news, thinking that like the world is gonna like go to shit, like that everything is bad, like the mental effects this has. I mean, even now, like, speaking of like kids not interacting, research has come and I think many of us knew this, but from COVID, like kids being put out of schools is like clearly did more harm than good, taking like shutting down schools and kids not being able to interact with other kids. Like, and we're seeing this affect adults, like not interacting with other people. Bro, I, seven years ago, I was screaming this from the mountaintop. But well before COVID and all this stuff like that, I read a book called Irresistible and these guys used to tease me all the time because it was all I talked about for like six months because I read all the data on that and the direction we were going. And I was like, holy shit, like if we don't get ahold of this soon, we are just gonna continue to get unhealthier and unhealthier, it was just, and it's unfolded out and then COVID just accelerating. How much of coaching do you think? Cause it used to be workout. When I first became a trainer, it was like we just work, we just train people. And then it was like workout and diet. Yes. Then it was like workout, diet, sleep. Now it's like workout, diet, sleep, lifestyle. You gotta be with people. You gotta go home. How much of our, how much larger are you seeing the scope of health coaches start to grow? Dramatically. It used to just be like, all right, I'm gonna read Tudor Bampa's Puritization for Sports and I'm good. And then it's like, oh no, it's not just one sport, it's all sports. It's not just all sports. Now like everyday people and not just everyday people, now you have to know about diet and not just one diet, but like different situations. If you have this, if you have that, like you have to be an expert in a lot, which I think for a new coach would be overwhelming. Relievably overwhelming, which goes back to start with one thing. I think to start with the thing you're most passionate about is the number one, like what do you care about? If you are a gluten-free person and you care about gluten-free, go all in on that. Like if that's your passion to help all those people. But if you're like all about one thing and you think that something else is more lucrative, so you try and go down that route, it's a bad fucking route. Go down whatever you're passionate about, be the best that you can in that. And then you can always switch down the road. Like there's no reason why you can't change and then improve and grow your knowledge. But like it takes a long time. We've all been doing this for well over a decade. So we've been able to build and build and build and build. But if I was just starting now, I would probably just start with one type of training and just learn a little bit about nutrition and just start there and grow with. Do you give the same advice too? Cause I love that advice. And we give the same advice too with like social media platforms. Yes. Cause then you have that, right? Correct. Man, you can be much more on YouTube and Facebook and now there's Instagram and Snapchat and Twitter. It's like, where do you start? Do you give the same advice there too? It's like, just one platform. Yeah. Find the platform you communicate best on. You know, whether if you like to be in front of a camera, maybe YouTube for you. If you do really good writing long form, do a blog. If you're somebody who has short, witty things that are smart and intelligent, you can go Twitter. You know, like, that's kind of how we recommend. Just be great at one. Yeah. Cause most people they try and do a bunch and then they quit. They suck at all of them. Yeah. And they quit. Yeah. What's realistic when somebody starts working with you as a coach and they just been training part-time, they're relatively new. What's, what are realistic things that you can communicate to them? Like they're like, okay, I want to build my business. What is this going to look like in six months a year, two years? Like how do you communicate that? For most people it's going to take a lot longer than you think. Which is something that we both experienced. I started making content. From the time I started making content to the time I had my first online coaching client was almost a year of consistently making content. And you know, she was paying me I think $49 a month is what I was charging for online coaching because I didn't know and I didn't want to overcharge or it was my thought process at the time. That's a big thing is it's going to take longer than you think to actually have a self-sustaining business. Which is one reason we like a hybrid approach so much of in-person and online coaching to have a little bit more stable in-person income combined with growing your online business. I even like the advice that you gave Jordan to like, cause you get it, we get traders like this too that are like, you know, stay at home moms, they can't leave, they can't do stuff like that. It's like, hey, train your cousin, train your neighbor, train them for free. Cause that just that, and I'm such a fan of, I know it's cliche to say the 10,000 hours would be a master, but I think it's so true. It's so true. And that if coaches and trainers were chasing that instead of the money, they would realize that the faster they can get to that number the quicker they'll get to the financial number that they want. Cause it takes a long time to get to 10,000 hours. I mean, we've done more podcast episodes than Joe Rogan and we still haven't crossed the barrier of over 5,000 hours. It's crazy. So we're not even, I don't even consider us masters at this. Which is wild. And we still approach it that way. Like the thought process was, this is not our expertise. This is a whole new game we're learning. It's all about reps. Like we're not- Has that been hard kind of topic, but like maintaining humility with the biggest fitness podcast? You know what? Oh, we get more, there's more humility as we continue to get bigger. Yeah. We meet really smart people. We see our own mistakes more clearly as we continue to grow. And then we check each other. Like there's no way these guys would let my head get too big. No, same thing. So it's a good friend. It's also what has made it, it was one of the things that is so special is that we started it after a big part of all this journey stuff that we're talking about. You know, we were 15 years already deep in our career when we started this thing, you know what I'm saying? So a lot of us had gone through a lot of the insecurities. We'd already tried to chase money or do things, you know, like we kind of did a lot of that stuff. So when we did this, like there was no, there was not a lot of ego involved. It was not yet a lot of confidence that the attitude we had, cause people ask this till the time, did you know it was going to be this big? Like we go, fuck yeah, we did. We had every intention of it being this big and bigger. So that was always the plan, but it was never for the reason of like, we wanted to be famous or I wanted all this attention. It was like, we had, there's a huge opportunity in this space to help a lot of people because there's not a lot of good information out there. And then what we thought was our goal was can we get enough of these reps and hours in to prove that model, to prove that we are good at giving this information and that's what we stayed focused on. And I tell you what, what people as great as this business is and we are terrible at the marketing sales side. What we're really good at is fucking helping people. We're really good at that. That's irony is what we found out is a lot of the influencers out there that we despise in terms of their content, they were just crushing it, right? And they're getting new people, new eyes like constantly and like, so if we're gonna try to compete or at least step in this arena and try to improve our messaging, we have to actually look and peer into what they're doing right. And this is something that I think a lot of people are hesitant to really, if you're just disdain somebody and what they're doing, but they're obviously doing something to where they're successful, like let's deconstruct that. Let's look a little bit further into what they're actually doing well and what we can learn from that. Cause you can always learn from so many different people and aspects within this industry, even if you don't agree with it and how can we do that and give them better messaging? Well, you know, I remember it was about year three in of doing this. And so we're just now starting to clip away and make good money. We're just entering like the million dollar revenue marker. So maybe a little bit over that in business, right? So we're starting to get some stride and I met the kid who was doing all the marketing for Keenobody, who was massive on the internet and just crushing making money. And I was picking his brain. I wanted to like, you know, like what are you doing for this and the funnels and sales and we're sharing numbers. And when he heard what our lifetime value of a customer was, he was like, what? And you guys are only this big. You know, I'm like, yeah, why? And he's just like, oh yeah. No, I mean, they do massive volume, but people don't come back. Cause everybody in this space was so focused on acquisition over retention. And we were all focused on retention. So we were growing slow. So much better. And we weren't making no, but we were so focused on servicing the client and making sure we were over-delivering on what we're promising and what we're talking about. Now what's dope is that over all these years of being slow to get there, it's so much easier to maintain because 90% of our business is a mother telling some other lady down the street that you gotta listen to these guys, you gotta do their program, not us spending. And we have, I've spent tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars in Facebook marketing and ads and commercials on other shows. None of it competes with all the organic traffic that we get and referrals that we get. And so we just don't waste our time with that. So what you said earlier, Mike about, it takes longer than it's gonna be able, it's gonna take a lot longer than you think, which by the way, that's a, that's how you know you guys do a good job. It's like somebody wants to hire someone to lose weight and they're like, oh yeah, we'll do that in like 30 days. That's a red flag. A good trainer would be like, that's gonna take a lot longer than you think it's a lot more challenging than you think. That's an honest coach and trainer. So when someone comes in and works with you guys, what's that process look like? What is the process of coaching them and mentoring them to become better coaches and trainers? What is that typical timeline look like? Yeah, so when someone signs up for the mentorship, we have 13 courses and we pace them pretty slow. So they're watching one to two courses a month. At most. Yeah, two Macs, usually one course a month. How long is a course? Hour and a half on average, two hours. Okay. In that range. Okay, and you guys are the ones teaching in the course? Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. And then Jordan and I have a weekly Q and A that we hop on a Zoom call and bring everyone from the mentorship who can make it in. They ask their questions, we answer all the questions there on the call, post the replay for anyone who couldn't make the call. I love that. Every month, I think this is the most unique part and my not so humble opinion, I think it's the most genius part. So like when you have a fitness client, you give them a program every month, right? And so this is what you're gonna do this month. This is your focus and we do the same thing. So every month we've got a program and it's some, you could view it as a challenge or a program, whatever you want, but like maybe one month is gonna be like, all right, so this month you're gonna be focused on could be building your email list, whatever and whether that's like, if you don't have an email list, then you better fucking make your email list right now. If you don't have a free offer to get people onto your email list, you're gonna make that. If you have all of that and for some reason you aren't pushing your email list, like let's get this number of people and like we have levels. So like the bottom level every month is called mom's basement because no one wants to be in mom's basement, right? So like if you don't even have an email list, you're in mom's basement, right? And then the top- I'm gonna motivate the shit out of me just to get out of that. So the top level is also bad, it's the guru level where it's like, okay, maybe you're building your email list, but like you're paid so you got like 5,000 people from India who like aren't real people, just like bump up the numbers of your email list. So you don't want to be in mom's basement, but you also don't want to be a guru. You want to be somewhere between like we call it like coach and specialist, which is basically just being like, all right, maybe you get somewhere between like five to 500 emails anywhere in that range or the course of this month. And so if you're just starting out, if you get five people, your cousin, someone down the street, whatever, great, that's awesome. If like you have a little bit of bigger audience, you get 500 people, amazing. But that's what the goal is that month. And we have different ones. So like we have a sometimes like, one of the best things I did when I was doing one-on-one coaching and you get this after years and years and years of experiences, you know what questions people are gonna have and you know when they're gonna ask them. So like I knew within the first like three to seven days someone was gonna be like, why isn't the scale going down? So I recorded a video being like, hey, just in case the scale hasn't gone down yet, like here's why and I would send it to them. And so we'll have like, hey, this month your goal is to make video courses for your clients. You should have somewhere between like 10 to 30 video courses and a video course could be about nutrition, could be about training. If like you're more of like a performance coach and you see issues that people are having with their squat, make a video course about the squat and have it sent to them on whatever day. And so like every month we have a new challenge that they have to accomplish. And so that to me is like, it's the accountability portion and it's like, here's your goal. And just because this is the challenge this month doesn't mean everything else falls off, but this is the focus of this month. I love that. So I have a question for you. One of the questions that we get from a lot of our listeners who are not coaches is how do I find a good coach and trainer? How do I know that I'm gonna work with somebody that's good? And we can tell we've done episodes. This is a tough question. Yeah, and we've done episodes like the five red flags that your trainers, you know, sucks or something like that, right? We've done stuff like that. Are your coaches able to post or signal to other people like, I'm part of this course that teaches me like, do you guys offer that? Or is that something that they can do or because? No, I mean, they can, but we've never advocated it. I think it's something you should do. I really think- Yeah, because I mean, people listen- Part of why- You tell them like, well, here's some stuff but it would be great if they could just see- Like a certification? Something like that, right? Yeah, I mean, part of why when you called me, Jordan, I was like, just get out here. I'd love for you to come on the show and what we can talk. And we'll talk about this is because I do, I think this is the future of education. I think one of the biggest things that's gonna get disrupted talking about the future AI in all spaces is the formal way we've done education for so long. And I think the future is like people like you guys and like us who have got years and years of experience. We have all the certifications and knowledge and that we've now distilled it down in an applicable way for these coaches and trainers to accelerate the process of them becoming good and great. And you're gonna be far better off, say going through a course like ours and yours, then you are gonna be spending $200,000 for an eight year degree in school or going through and getting six national certifications that all pretty much teach the same basic stuff to become a good trainer. And not to discount that there's not value in that, there is, I just think the stuff that you guys are doing and we're doing is really hyper focused on filling those gaps. And so I do think that there's gonna come a time, maybe not right now, but in the future, and I think you guys are the right people to have some sort of like certificate, even if it's just that you've completed this course, so I can put it in my bio that, you know, I've got, yeah, just so people can, and I don't know, through our podcast and through your guys' and network, like we are gonna teach people to look for that, look for coaches. Do you have that on your course? So when you go through the completion of our course, you just get a little print out like that and then you could be like mind pump coach certified. Oh, that's awesome. Do they get it like mailed to them or? They get like a print, it's a print out. Oh God, print out, okay, okay. Go through all the course and get this little print out afterwards. That's awesome. Thank you guys, we have this community in there that we're always fostering. I love, I mean, I'm totally gonna borrow some of the things you guys are doing with the way you guys are focusing on a topic for an entire, we have something similar where we call like a coach's corner. So maybe this can provide, and I'm all about us cross helping. I think we all have the same desired outcome. The idea is to elevate the space. Is to give coaches and trainers better. So what we came up with this was this coaches trainer corner. And the idea and the concept is we got, you know, these 800 coaches that are in there that are teaching people and we're gonna allow them to steer the content to continue to bolster the program. So let's say we get, you know, 20 trainers this month that go like, man, I don't know how to train someone who's a diabetic. I'm gonna go out with the power of our reach and podcasts and go get the most, the best expert or the who are the best author that wrote a book on diabetes and training someone. I'm gonna interview them within the community for an hour and a half asking trainer questions. How do I train them? What should I not do? What should I watch out for? What tests are levels? And then, and then now that gets bolstered into the program. So the program is, yes. That's genius. And so, and we're just doing that and building it through the process. So I love what you guys are doing. I think doing something like that too. Like, you know, I wanted to ask you guys this cause you guys like, you know, some of the best in the industry with training coaches and trainers and we're getting more and more of these questions now. And it's new. This is a new thing. And we were talking about the software is the introduction of these GLP one agonists like peptides, like some of the glue tide and trizepatide. And I've heard trainers come up to us and be afraid. Like, what is this? Is this going to like take my clients? Like, why are people going to need to work with me? Now we understand like, no, no, no. This is only, this could potentially be a boom to the industry. Are you guys, do you guys have coaches and trainers are asking you about this yet? And what do you guys think about moving forward with this? Cause we have some strong opinions. Adam's on one now, just to test it. So we have our own experience of what it's like. Like, what do you guys think about how that's going to impact our space? Well, the known risks of being very overweight or obese, like we know what happens. We know that the percentage chance of leading to various diseases, we know mortality rates. So using for someone who has tried everything and hasn't, and I'm speaking just about the weight loss side, there are other benefits too that we can get into. But using them to lose weight, to improve their health, even if there are some unknowns, right? You'll hear people who push back and say, oh, but we don't know about the unknown risks. We don't know about 50 years down the line how this is going to impact you. The reduction in known risk in my view is so much more beneficial than what could potentially happen that we don't even know about. For that reason, I'm a fan of these GLP ones. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's not a fix all for everyone. I think like, if you're trying to lose five pounds for the beach, you fucking idiot, don't do that. But for the people who really need it, I think it's amazing and from a coaching perspective, I think it's so funny that a lot of coaches are against it. It's interesting, right? It's very odd. I thought you wanted people to get healthier, number one. And number two is there are other goals besides fat loss and now you might actually get someone to help achieve fat loss in a way that is healthy and sustainable and now you can work with them on the other things that maybe they would never have done before. Now you can work on getting them stronger and building muscle and improving their athleticism, all this stuff that like before they were just trying, it was all fat loss, all fat loss and they would try and quit, try and quit, try and quit. Now they're fucking doing it and you can actually get them in the gym and stronger and you're complaining about it. So Adam's been on it and I have family members that are on it and I've been talking. So Dr. Seed's a friend of ours. He's like one of the lead researchers on GLP ones. And so I've been really working on my opinion on these and I think I'm pretty close to what I would consider like my strong opinion. And I would say the number one side effect with the GLP one, aside from the potential unknowns, which it's peptides and peptides are not like drugs. So the risk, the safety profiles on peptides tend to be much higher because peptides actually exist in the body. So the body knows what to do with them versus a drug which kind of forces its way in and can have all these side effects. But the big side effect is the same side effect you'd get with any client who just cut their calories. So what happens if somebody's overweight and then they just eat less of the same stuff? Well, they lose muscle along with body fat because the body metabolism tries to adapt and they pair muscle down. What an incredible opportunity for trainers and coaches. Because now you have this, because it is hitting the mainstream but we're not close to where this is gonna go. I think this is gonna put a lot of drugs out of business. I know the snack food industry, I don't know if you guys have seen the articles, they're actually meeting and they're freaking out. Stop, are you serious? They're scared. That's how powerful these are. You already made that much of an impact. I didn't even think about that. They're freaking out because they don't, they're like, uh, this is gonna crush our profits. Like we are, because they don't know what to do. Weight watchers is pivoting because they're like, uh, this is freaking us out type of deal. But yeah, this is a big deal. So as a trainer or coach, I'm looking at this and I'm like, the opportunity is gonna be massive because you have this huge influx of everyday people who are gonna go on these, they're gonna lose weight and be like, I'm losing muscle too. I wanna get stronger. And well, you know, I need to up my protein and take their saying, but it's really hard to do. Boom, enter the trainer or coach. It can help you in the Serena. So I feel like it's gonna bring more people to coaches and trainers, not less. Absolutely. It helps people get their calories under control and then you can help them get stronger, get more mobile, get more flexible, feel better, up protein. That's the fun part too, is like the training part. It's like the fat loss part sucks. You're gonna see clients be way more consistent and like a far less turnover, a far less trend because they're like, I'm just getting stronger week over week, month over month. I'm liking how I look better. This is literally, that's the best part of this. I completely agree it's gonna help the industry and help society. Yeah, I think the trainers that are, cause to me it feels like there's a very divided camp. It's either I'm all pro drug, take everything to get there, people that are pushing it or that are money motivated by it. And so there are of course all, everything's positive about it. Or you have the other extreme where it's like, oh my God, this is such a terrible idea. And that's just uneducated on what it is. I was uneducated on it. I thought a peptide was similar to SARMs originally. So when people first like, I don't know, five, six years ago, when they started asking us about peptides, I would say like, oh, don't mess with that cause I don't know about long-term effects. And I assumed it was like a SARM. I didn't realize it's like a protein. It's already in your body. It's totally different than taking an actual drug or taking something like SARM. So I think that's why we're getting that pushback from the trainers cause they just don't know. And the thing that I was just talking to all these trainers about was like, listen, your job is to become as educated as you can and learn how to work with this. It's going to be a tool. And like every other tool that we've ever had in this world, it can potentially harm and hurt some people when used and abused the wrong way. And it's absolutely going to change lives that know how to apply correctly. And you guys are going to be the resource to help people navigate that or decide whether they're the right candidate for it or not, or if they decide to use it, how to use it properly and what pitfalls to watch for. And so my whole idea of, cause everybody's like, why are you taking Trezeppitide? Like you're not like this obese person. I was like, no, I want to go through it and I want to pretend to be a client. I was like, well, aren't you afraid of it? And I was like, no, I'm going through it. Like I'm trying to be as naive as possible. Like I know I can take my competitive bodybuilder mind and go, you track my macros and you know where my protein's at. And then go like, oh shit, I need 60 grams. Go slam a shake and do like to keep the most amount of muscle. But it's like, that's not how I want to approach it. I really want to see how this affects my behavior, my cravings and just report back on what I noticed. That way when I have somebody who like, we had a caller today who just went through it. She's been on it for six months, lost like 60, 70 pounds. Really? And yeah, so we just had a caller today and he's like, hey, how do I come off of this? What are the things to watch out for? And so, you know, we'll be able to, and I'll tell on her that like, hey, you're a little ahead of me. I said, but that's, I've already been thinking about how am I going to come out of this and what to watch for? Is it something that you want to eventually come off? Oh yeah, definitely. Oh no, I definitely would not stay on it. He's doing it purely for, so we can communicate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but like for someone else, like would they stay on it forever? So I think that's what you're going to see a lot of. The idea is to go on, lose the weight, go off. And so the current protocols that are most popular are you go on, it's a ramping up process. You start with like a quarter dose, half dose, then full dose. You stay on, lose the weight, and then you taper off. And then try to maintain, you know, what's happened. This is a really interesting peptide because it doesn't, it's an appetite suppressant, but it's not stimulant. So classic appetite suppressants were stimulants. Were like a fedra back in the day. This is not a stimulant. That's nice that it's not a stimulant. No, but here's the weird part. So it seems to act on the hedonistic aspect of activities or experiences. So you're also finding people who are, the color that we have, she stopped drinking alcohol. Wow, that's amazing. I was going to ask you about pulse of the hatred. It's gambling. Yeah, it's actually. Nail biting, pornography. Yes, people, that's what was, that's also what made me do it because I'm like, this is interesting. I wonder if I'll see other, I bite nails every once in a while. I do weird things like that. Do you feel like you have an addictive personality or not really? You know, I have somewhat of an addictive personality. I have like, I have ice cream as a big driver for me. I have the tendency to do something like that and binge on it. Like I'm not, I'm definitely not the person who can have one piece of candy or one bite or something. The person who goes, oh, it's in my house. May as well get out. I'm going to eat those calories anyways. May as well put them all down right now. Right? So like, I definitely have behaviors like that. And so, yeah, I was really interested and fascinated to see what that would look like. And so I already have some things that I know that if I was coaching somebody, I would want them to do, one, we could use it to lose weight and then I would want them off. And then I already know like some things that I would want because I know the idea is that you know that, we know that food many times for people is used as coping like a drug is, right? It's like, you had childhood trauma or you're just anxious, depressed. Yeah, anxious, depressed, stressed. And so what do you do? You feed your face. And it seems to just crush, kill that. That's cool. Wow, that's amazing. I was talking to this therapist about this, who's also a trainer and she was asking me, now, Adam, don't you feel like it's going to be very challenging for like someone like me who's a therapist to help this person get into the root cause of what caused that, if it just eliminates it for him? And I said, well, initially it might, but then this gives you an opportunity when you get them off to coach and to journal. Like, so for example, what's happening now? But I would tell me, if I was my client and I had this ice cream binge and now I don't do it at all and now I get off, is I would say, okay, Adam, what I want you to do is every time you go to eat the ice cream or you feel the urge to go do that, I'm not gonna tell you not to. I want you to write down what happened in your day. How are you feeling? What were you just thinking about? The contrast, it's the contrast that will be valuable. Yes, and to know that like, oh, so then maybe I can look back at the next 10 times I go to reach for ice cream, there was something in, oh, shit. I had a stressful day at work at all those things and I tend to do these things. Or, oh, wow, anytime my wife and I get into a disagreement, I tend to, whatever it is. By the way, and to point all that out as we're going through the process. By the way, yeah, so if you are gonna get off of it, you have to know, okay, this is how I was previous to this is how my experience was here. Here's how I was working on these behaviors. Now I want to reestablish these better behaviors and keep working on keeping that consistency. Who can do that better than a coach? Correct. I think the value of a coach is gonna explode as more and more people, everyday people get on GOP ones. You're gonna see more strength training, that's what I think. Because they're all gonna be informed on the muscle lot, I better go start lifting weights. And you know, they're right, I did notice I got a little weaker. I think more coffin, go to the gym. Yeah, I love that. I think it's gonna be a complete boom to the fitness industry. There's a chance for abuse, for sure. Of course. For sure competitors are gonna use it for pre-contest and people who just want to restrict calories that kind of stuff, but. But in regard to what the therapist is saying, the stress eating, the anxious eating, the binging, that's the coping mechanism. It's not the issue, it's not like, so you're actually giving them an opportunity because when they then have the stress eating and binge eating, now they feel guilty about that, they might not even be focusing on what caused it in the first place. So now you've removed the coping mechanism. Yes. Well, what's actually going on? You actually might be able to help people more. I think so too, that's why I find it really, I tell you what, I've tried everything in the sun as coaches and trainers. And I've done everything that's legal, illegal, you name it, I've tried all the cool stuff in our space. There is nothing, bro, there's nothing like this. Really? It is that trippy for me of like how. Now I wanna try it just to see. Dude, I encourage you to, just for that experiment. I mean, I'm only four weeks in, within week one, you'll see a massive difference. And I even see, so once a week I take the shot. If there's been two times where I've even thought about ice cream or even thought maybe I'll go take a bite or whatever with it. And it's been a Saturday or Sunday night, right before I think my shot is. As it's wore off, like I have that. And the first time, it wasn't even hard for me to be like, nah, I don't feel like it. And then the second time I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna go try it because I wanna see my relationship. I tell you what, had a handful of bites and then put it right back away. Dude, that's what. Never in my life have I done that. And walk away from it and not feel like I needed more, which is how I would feel in the past. If I want ice cream and I go start it, like again, that it's over, I'm gonna finish it. I don't have, my wife has that ability to like, I'll have a bite honey and that's it. She's satisfied, I don't have that. I don't have that relationship with ice cream. And so the fact that I've been able to like, I didn't even want that bad, but I wanted enough to let me go test it. I tested it, I didn't have this urge or desire. So the theory around this also, this is just, we're going down this rabbit hole. The theory also is you reinforce behaviors by constantly practicing them. So you build stronger neural connections. So if you stayed on something like this for let's say six months and you don't strengthen the connection or the relationship between stress and eating, stress and eating, the connection may potentially, and this is the theory, weaken. So when you go off, you may be in a better position to not go back to it in the first place. Create new neural networks. 100%. That's amazing. This is a very interesting, I've never, and I love this whole space. I love all the peptides, drugs, the whole deal. I've never seen anything that has a potential to radically change the pharmaceutical industry, like DLP ones. I'm also curious. So if you're a coach and you're not on this, you're done. You need to figure this out because this, or you're gonna be left in the dust. I'm also really curious to like, I haven't wrapped my brain around why, I have theories on why this is and I'm curious of other people experiences. So Katrina, of course I'm at, she's like giving me her feedback on what she sees in different, right? So I'm asking her like, and she's like, you know, there's something that you have done now four times in the just the last four weeks that you've never done in 13 years we've been in together. That's fascinating to me. And she goes, so I have this desire for whole natural foods really bad. Really? So if I get hungry, I not only might not think of fast lots of calories, I think I want something nutrient dense. Interesting. I think it's the executive part of the brain is able to take over more than the impulsive side. That's what makes sense to me. Cause you know so much about nutrition that you're like, that's what I want. Cause I know that's good versus the impulsive side of me. Yeah, I don't know. It's my theory. Did you notice this happening as well or did she just notice? Yeah, no. So well, the reason why I noticed it happened is because I physically did different stuff. Like for example, in our house, my wife cooks most of the time for our dinner and stuff like that. Every once in a while we have really busy days and she's like, hey, let's doordash. Now if I'm on my diet or choosing good food, like I'll just go, okay, I'll get Nick the Greek or Chipotle, I'll choose a healthier choice and I'll doordash. Like I don't like give her a hard time for not cooking. That's what I do, right? So I have not desired that stuff so bad that I go out to the grocery store at eight o'clock at night, go get steak, vegetables and like some potatoes, come back home, prepare the meal for both of us. I've never done that. You take though like way less convenient options. Way less convenient. I want it so bad that even something that's fast and healthy isn't enough of what it's a trip. That's really incredible. Jordan's gonna laugh that I'm asking this, but I'm just curious because I'm pretty sure they slow gastric emptying. How's your digestion been? Great. The only time is if I notice anything off and this is another thing is interesting so last night I was watching my son by myself and so I ordered tacos and it's this kind of like a farm to table type of place. So it's a healthy choice but they still probably use some sort of oils or something in the way they cook it and I was on the toilet like right afterwards and so it affects, I'm very sensitive to stuff that is not like prepared super clean. Especially when you stop having that stuff and then all of a sudden you do have it. I've noticed the same. And then it reinforces that. It's like, so I have no desire for that now. The slowing of gastric emptying would actually be the opposite. You notice more probably constipation. Yeah, I know. That's not happening. The only thing I have noticed with my digestion is that. I've actually probably from eating better foods and then having one day. That's right. So here's what's interesting about what you're saying. The snack food industry is I think because I know they have met as you can find articles where they're meeting. That's crazy. I think they're putting out propaganda. I think they're highlighting scare stories because if you talk to actual people using actual doctors and the side effect profile is actually extremely safe, especially compared to any other medical intervention when it comes to obesity. It's like ridiculous. I think that they're trying to fight with propaganda and I think they're gonna have to join forces. I believe that like I've never believed anything more than that. I very much like that is not surprising at all. When did you think that you'd ever see big pharma and a snack food industry battle? This could be a cool. Oh my gosh. The two devils fight each other. Let's see what happens. I really think that's why it's causing this division within trainers is because they're reading the propaganda. They're hearing this one scare story of somebody who had some issues. It took three times as much as she was supposed to do. Yeah, and it's like because at least in our experience so far, everybody that we've talked to it's been all positive. I had one guy. One guy who got nauseous. He got very, very nauseous from it. He had really lowered his dose. Yeah, so. I mean I could see like the other thing I noticed right now is just I'm so low calorie. My energy level is really low. So my workouts are suffering. My workouts do not look anywhere near what my work. Yeah, you're talking to somebody who didn't overeat. Massive deficit, you know. So it makes sense, you know what I'm saying? That I feel that way. And again though, like I want to just kind of go through it and see it through. Did you get blood work done too? I had the last time we got, but when we get blood work done, we got done just like six months ago. Yeah, no, less than that. I'd say like three months ago or so. That'd be cool to see like changes in overall blood work. Because we work with a hormone company, I've been very consistent with my blood work. In fact, I'm actually due to go get that done today or tomorrow. So I'll do it again. And so I'll have the first. Can I either off air or on air? Like I want to figure out what company this is because I might want to try it. I like experimenting stuff. Me too. Last time I was here I was doing the glucose experiment. I want to just see, because if our clients are going to do it. Yes. For the exact reason you're doing it. That's exactly what my thought process is. So far what it looks like is if you coach someone on this, you have to really coach them on ad-hit protein. And you have to be very, you have to be very consistent and diligent with strength training and appropriate strength training. So reduced calories means they're probably not going to be able to handle as much volume or whatever. And you have to approach it and take. Otherwise what's going to happen is just like what happens. I think you're also going to be, it's going to become even more important to know how to modify intensity. Of course. Because if you are the person who loves F-45 or orange theory type of class. And then you also take this recipe for super muscle off-quick. And so, yeah, there's going to be, there's definitely going to be some things. That's why I think it's fun as a coach to go through it. Because now I'm going to be able to go like, okay, these are the potential pitfalls. Yeah. This is the type of person that's going to gravitate towards this. Like, so yeah, no, I can see a lot. But it's interesting, dude. I just, I've never experienced something like that's been this powerful. That's incredible. I know. And to not, like I am very open to eating some garbage or what? Like if I feel it, like, and it's just not there. It is, there is no desire to. It's weird to be around them to see it. He'll eat like nothing. Yeah. I'm like, what are you doing? And not, and not feel. Yeah, it's, it's a trip. I go to a restaurant. He'll be like, appetizer. That's not, I've never. So I told these guys, so part of this too, I'm trying to be introspective too, right? I'm trying to like, you know, hey, maybe I still have childhood trauma or things I was coping or. So I do have this thing right now. I was telling Sal this the other day, like, so I have an autoimmune disease. I have psoriasis. Okay, I have that. And I've suffered from it forever. I've done every. You have a bad? Yeah. Do you really? Yeah, yeah, I have really, I'll show you on my side. Oh, God, okay. I have a, my shin is getting pretty good right now because I've done, I mean, I've done stem cells. I've done every intervention you could think of, every cream, every steroid, everything, to try and, you know, get a handle on it. And it's the best it's ever been right now. Now, obviously that's because I'm in this crazy low calorie diet. Right, right, right. That's why. So your gut's like. Yeah, so my gut is taking a break. So now I have this new theory like, oh my God, because my psoriasis came on when I was 24, 25 was when it first showed up and then it's never gone away. And I've thought it was, you know, I've done everything to like, I've done the carnivore diet, I've gone vegan. I thought, you know, is it a, is it a certain food I'm doing that's doing it? And now I'm at like, did I train myself so fucking well for so long to be the big buff guy that even though I was eating healthy foods, I was just stressing my digestive system so much with just the amount I was eating to be big that my body really wants to be this 180, 190, lanky kind of thin looking dude. And I've resisted that for so long and I've justified it because I've been eating so good and that this is bringing me back to more home. And I'm just kind of, that's part of also why I'm allowing it happen is cause what happens if my psoriasis completely goes away or gets really, really good? And I landed. Would you rather be Jack with psoriasis or? Yeah. Or lanky without it. Yeah. And I would rather be no psoriasis than the lanky guy because I'm okay with that for sure. So I definitely feel like I move past those young childhood insecurities around it. Like I'm totally open to being that guy now, but I didn't realize that I had done such a good job of training double meat and I'll have two of those. And you know, being that guy that, oh my God, what if I just allow myself to eat when I'm hungry, make good, healthy choices? Where does my body land? And maybe that's a lot smaller than what I'm currently at. And so I'm being- What an amazing thing to learn just from this experiment. I have to. It's weird to watch. Yeah. It's weird to watch. It's just a good thing you're not like starting dating now. So you get like an appetizer. I'm just, I'm good. They would be like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. Katrina does treat me about that our meal, our plates, I think I have a smaller plate than she does. And that's another thing too. I've never, I've never not finished a plate of food. That happens now a lot. He gives it to me and Justin now. Finish the food score. That's hilarious. It's cool though. It's been a fun experiment. I'll definitely set you up so you can go through it. I think it's good that coaches hear that just from experimentation part. Like you've done carnival. Like, how can you know if you've never tried what your clients are going through and how you just adopt somebody else's bullshit propaganda? Yes. Because you're the carnivore guy. So you're so pro at it. So you're going to shit on everybody else's things. Oh, no, I'm going to, I'm going to agree with that guy. Why have you done it or to stop? You know what I'm saying? I've always said that I think it's so good for coaches and trainers to experiment with all those things. You know, and training style too. Yes. 100%. Yes. There's a difference between knowing and knowing. You know what I mean? And knowing is when you experience it and then you can speak to it. For sure. When trainers and coaches work with you guys, how long do they typically stay? Or do they stay with you for a long period of time as they continue to build? The ones who do the best stay with us for, they've had people been there three, four, five years. That's awesome. That's such a testament to... It's been crazy because there are some people in there who are like, they started off, they like hadn't been a coach before. They like were working as like Chris Gates. Like what was he, what's his main job? He still, he still has a good job. In education. Administration education. He is absolutely fucking dominant. Starting it from scratch, nothing. Rachel Schwartz is another one. Eric Roberts, Sean Casey, all these people who like started from scratch and like are now helping. It's funny, some of them have big fitness audiences and some of them have tiny audiences, but crush it. That for me is my favorite because a lot of people have this idea that you need to have hundreds of thousands or millions of followers. It's like, you have a small number of people but they love you and they'll buy everything that you have and they'll be your clients forever. So it's, I mean, like we've had some people who are like in and out, but the people who are the most successful stay in it for a long time. Because from the beginning, we're honest. We're like, it's going to be a while. Like this isn't... Well, and the way you guys have structured it, it seems like, I mean, I would, if I was one of your trainers, I would look at the value add every month of like I'm learning something. I'm learning and growing because I have access to you guys coaching and training me, which I mean, I'm what, 20 years in this and I'm still learning. So it's like the value of having somebody who's been there and done it for much longer than me and the access to that for a minimal monthly payment to me, if I'm already running a business, that's like the electricity bill. It's just a must have, you know what I'm saying? You guys have ambitions of just continue to grow this to get more and more coaches and trainers under you guys and having other people help you guys. Cause that's going to be tough to scale at some point, I would imagine. Yeah. You know, I don't know that we've talked about it directly. I feel like we're pretty on the same page with not wanting it to be so big that it becomes something that we don't enjoy. Yeah. I actually found that with my one-on-one coaching over the years is kind of in peak Gary time, 2016, 2017, I got to the point where I was burnt out with one-on-one online coaching happens with trainers in the gym as well because you have too many clients, but by reducing client load to a more manageable level, I fell in love with it again, you would say. Same thing here, like if it got to a point where we needed to be making so many hires and having daily meetings and, yeah. I hate that shit. Not as interesting. I don't want to be a manager. We don't want to be managers. We're okay with a smaller group that we can manage and enjoy. Impact. Yeah. That's just like, we're so blessed that we get to do what we do and we love what we do. I wouldn't want to change that. I wouldn't want to feel like I have to do something. There's also like, and you guys experience this because you help so many coaches with the podcast is you're not just helping them, you're helping everyone who they end up helping them. That was the idea. It's the ripple in a pond of like, you know, because even someone who's working with clients in person is having a profound effect on each of those individuals. And if you're helping that person be better, like it just, it's exponential. I think the only way to change the industries through the coaches and trainers. I don't think you can change it from the outside. It has to start from the inside. Yeah, because they're the ones influencing everybody and like you said, they're gonna impact you. So you guys are not, how often do you guys see each other in person? Cause you guys don't live. Just talking about that. It's been like 10 months. What? Yeah, like rarely see each other in person at this point. It's great cause like we talk every day, multiple times a day. So, but yeah, like we, yeah, once a year at this point, which is crazy cause we used to see each other every day for years. Do you have trainers and coaches worldwide or is it just US? All over the world. Yeah, it's awesome. We like this a couple of people in Australia like during the Q and A, they'll be like, it's three in the morning and we're here like you're a savage. That's awesome. It's crazy. Like it's a great group of coaches who, the main thing is they want to be a good coach. And like, so it's just awesome. It's also like nostalgic cause like I see myself in a lot of these younger coaches or like even these like 52 year old coaches who are just really excited about learning. It's not people. Tracy Townsend. Yeah, another amazing example. Like it's not people who are just trying. It's not the high ticket. It's not the make as much money as possible. It's not like I'm gonna cold DM 50 people a day, bullshit. It's like, how can I help people? Like that's it. It's just in their passion. Real impact. Yes. Real impact and that's sustainable. Looking back now, right? Cause you guys like us, you've done so much in the space and been apart and grown every kind of medium to grow your business. If you were like starting completely over, like are there things that you would be like, oh, I would do this. This is how I would start now because so much has changed. Like I would focus on this and then this and that. Do you ever think about that? I was a coach. But that model. Okay, tell me what, give me some ideas of what you guys would do different. You know what's funny is one thing that I think almost everyone would do different but I would do the same is focus on website, email list first. Oh, do that telephony you say that? Because in the social media era, like you don't want to build your house on someone else's lawn. Instagram could change tomorrow. I remember when Facebook business pages lost their reach dramatically instead of reaching 80, 90% of your audience or reaching less than 5% of your audience. Sal has been kicked off of Instagram twice now. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, yeah, there's personally a man who has truly been the influencer to be kicked off Instagram. That's right, yeah. Man, permanent brand. Imagine if we built our whole business on that, we'd be fucked. Yeah, seriously. Website email list, you're gonna have access. Even if you get kicked off of an email service provider, you still have access to all of those emails. Switch email service providers, you can reach them, you know, 50% at least are gonna be at least seeing the email, whether they click it or not. But having access to your audience is a big thing. So, you know, there's the flash and the fame of growing social media rapidly, but you learn so much by writing long form articles. You have the ability to SEO. So podcast doesn't have a ton, you know, Facebook, Instagram have basically none, but YouTube and articles right now type a question into Google. I'm still getting traffic on articles I wrote in 2013, 2014, 2015. That organic reach for years is huge. Let me tell you why that's such awesome advice. And so aligned with how well we think. First of all, when I'm asked what's the biggest mistake you guys ever made in Mind Pump, the first answer I always say is that we fucked up and actually thought email was dead the first two years. Okay, real talk, real talk. What year was this? Well, this is, what, this is 10 years ago. So you're seven years, seven, eight years ago. Okay. When we first got this, we thought email was dead. We thought that the future was social media. No one's gonna use email anymore. Everyone's gonna communicate through DMs and social media. So why should we build an email list? Okay, we learned that lesson. We had these ladies come in. I'll never forget this. And they had this cauliflower pizza company. Never even heard of them. Never heard of them whatsoever. And they're like, and I'm at, I always love to ask behind the scenes business questions like, you know, how much revenue you make, where's your best medium, what's that? And they're like, oh, email. Like we send out, we, if we need to build revenue, we send one email out and we'll generate about a million dollars. Shut the fuck up. And I'm like, I've never heard of you before. Yeah, yeah. And you can send out one email. No visibility. And generate a million dollars and you have like 5,000 Instagram followers. I'm like, what? That's crazy. And like right away, all of us looked at each other like, yeah, we fucked up. So let's go fix that. And then the other thing was, and this is to your point about long form, like blogs and stuff like that and SEO is, and that's the long game. Like, so for, you know, nine years now, we have been paying, you know, lots of bloggers to write five to seven blogs every week for years. You have? Yes. It never stops. So genius. But it took a very long time. But now that's why I said that 90% of our traffic comes from organic traffic. And let me tell you, a lead that comes from an article that we had written eight years ago on fat loss or whatever it was that is great free information that leads to another link, which has got a free YouTube video or something else on it that then leads to a free guy that now comes out, you know, is a way hotter lead and conversion rate. Yes. Then some Instagram viral video. A hundred percent. A real that went nuts or something. A hundred percent. So I love that advice. And I think a lot of people don't understand that. And it's a slower, longer game and takes a while to build that. But let me tell you, if you stick with it and you spend time doing it, it pays off big time. So the other thing about that is I can guarantee you 99% of the people who hear that will not do it. I know. They just won't do it. Listen, I had working time. Yes. I did a podcast, I don't know, three years ago and I did it. I've been quoted so many times on this that to the point where they made fun of me. It's probably had hundreds of millions of hits. If I go on Google right now and Google in, it's about the journey or something like that. You'll see t-shirts, people have made t-shirts. Really? I swear to God. It made us nothing. Nothing. Okay? It did nothing except for people who would be like, oh, I love the journey. It's all about the journey. Jack reposted it. Yeah. She killed Neil, reposted it. Come on. What you said is everything. Yes. So people, you're right. 99% of people, they just won't do it. Whatever. Well, you know what? Again, it's the slow game. You are not going to go write 10 blogs and get $10,000 in the next six months or even year. Nope. You're going to write 10 of them. It's not the slow game, it's the game. There's no fast game. The fast games that you've seen don't exist and the one in a million is like one in a million. You know what's funny? I've never seen anyone, and I know we know a lot of people, especially because we grew up with people. I've never seen anyone who like really invested in SEO, the long game who's fallen off, who's like lost their business. It's like the ultimate anti-fragile business. Whereas I've seen so many people go viral very quickly and then gone and they lose it all. It's like long form SEOable content is the ultimate anti-fragile business. So true. Yeah, 100%. Such good vinyl. Okay, so we've got, you would website, website, email list, blog, white paper type stuff, getting out on there. Okay, those are first up. Anything else? What's next in your steps of like what I'm going to do to build this thing? I think for like someone who's new to coaching, I think you shouldn't be presenting yourself as an expert. I think it's a very bad idea. I think documenting your own journey with your own fitness is a really great opportunity for people to get used to number one, making more content and just connecting with people. In terms like, and also I should have mentioned like you should fucking study, like get books, but like we know that already. But like in terms of presenting your information, I think you should use yourself as a case study. Almost like you are right now. Yeah. Like use yourself as a case study and document it, present it to people. Don't, just because you're like getting your A certification doesn't make you an expert. Like you're fucking not, right? It's like, so I think stop, and I think the more you try and present yourself as an expert, the more imposter syndrome you'll have. It's like just present yourself as a student and like this is what you're doing and this is what you're working on. I think starting from that perspective, especially with social media posting will be super helpful. I think Instagram is full. I posted that just like a week ago. I don't know if you saw that in my story. I said like Instagram is full of students pretending to be teachers. That's literally what it is. Everybody thinks that they're an expert. It's like, did you've been doing this for two years? The most effective trainers aren't the ones that know everything. They're the ones that the clients trust. And where does trust come from? Honestly, vulnerability, being real. If they trust you, then they're more likely to take your advice and follow your guidance. If they think you know everything and you're perfect, actually reality is probably less likely to take your advice. Where in the order does this fall? Because I actually just talked about you guys, we just got back from a big conference with a bunch of trainers and so with that out in Florida. And I use you guys as an example all the time. Thank you, man. And I use it when I say, if I didn't get blessed with these guys, I said I would never be naive enough to go like, I'm gonna go be a mind pump podcast. Like I would be self aware enough to go, there's something special there. I'm probably never gonna build it or get lucky enough to find three people like that. So I'm not gonna waste my time. And I use the way you guys built a podcast and community as how I would do it. Servicing your clients. Yeah, I think and you did such a good job of, and I think this is very important for a couple of reasons now. I think because we're in this digital age of being disconnected so much, that community has become more important. And so having a Facebook forum or a platform that you get all of your, even if you only got 10 people, but you've got 10 people you're helping and servicing. And even if I have a podcast that only 10 people are listening to, I'm being able to put out this digital content that will live forever, that those people now can get value from and then can share to other people. And I would just grow it out like that to eventually where that 10 people turns into 50 people and then 100 people. And I've got this strong community and I don't care that only 100 people or a thousand people are listening to my podcast, but I'm doing a great job of servicing them so well. That's a great question, Adam. Cause you guys have a very, very good community. Like your community loves you guys, is loyal to you guys. If they talk to us and they're with it, that's like, that's what we hear. What are the keys to building? Cause if you're a coach or trainer, it's part of what you're doing. What are the keys to building a really good, tight community? I think, I think Jordan's better than me at this candidly, but one thing that I always did was focused on helping each individual for free with no expectations. So it's not like someone asked a question in my DM and I'm answering it because I want to convert them into a pain coaching client. And this might be a mindset Gary helped in still, but replying to every comment, replying to every message, replying to every email from non-pain individuals. You know, when you're first getting started and you have time to do this and actually help them, that might mean jumping on a 15 minute call for free. That might mean going back and forth in DM for a half hour, sending voice memos back and forth. But you know, you're talking about helping those 10 people. It's focusing on what's right in front of you and building real relationships by helping that person with the problem they're going through. And then, you know, that doesn't do it anything quote unquote in a month or in six months, but after a number of years of doing that consistently, you're going to have a community. That's cool. And it compounds. Like you have, I can't stress this enough that, and this happens. And it's so great when you've done this for 10 years, it happens every day now for us where it's like somebody who I helped out for free seven years ago told seven other people how incredible I was and all seven of those people bought five different programs. And it's like, even though that person never got anything from me, that's okay. Because that person, the ROI on that person for that 15 minutes that I spent giving that free information to her like that ended up paying me 10X that of my time. And so. Well, that's gold. What's weird is that the online social media space has made people believe that. It's bastardized that. That it's somehow different than the way business was always done. Like if I owned a gym and 10 people commented on my gym or my exercise or me training someone, like I wouldn't ignore them. Correct. That's like a real person. I'm gonna talk to you and help you out. Somehow social media world has made people be like, oh, it's a comment. Like, and it's a like, like who cares? Like that's a person. That's a person that that's so weird to lead. Or they just give like the thumbs up and response is like, what, could you imagine like in real life? If I came up to you and I'm like, hey man, that's a great, you know, thing you're doing with your client. Yeah. Absolute dude type. It's so annoying. It's like, take the time to reply. One thing, it's so funny thinking back to stuff that we used to do, like when we had time and like time is your advantage. Like I used to, when I was coaching Gary and I was flying everywhere, waiting in airports, I would post on my story. I'd be like, hey, if you need help with X, Y, Z like DM me your phone number and I get people DMing me. And then I would call people at the airport and I would just like call them and be like, hey, what's going on? And people would lose their shit. But like for free. And now I see so many people being like, I need to get paid what I'm worth. I'm like, fuck off. Like you were worth nothing, period. Like, and then for you to think that you deserve to get paid so early on, it's like, it's disgusting. It's like, if you give something for free to a lot of people for a long time, like it will come back to you a hundredfold. Bro, I, okay, this is, this gets me every time. Okay, so Doug, do you know what year it was when I did the Prime Pro webinar? It was at least what, three, four or five years ago. It's gotta be like four or five. Four years ago, I did this free webinar and it was, I think we titled it like how to eliminate back pain or something like that. But basically it was a 50 minute mobility workout that I used to do to my clients. And I have told every trainer that I meet and come across and I don't know how many thousands of trainers we've now talked to in person and stuff. And I ask every time, and I said on the podcast, fucking 50 plus times, do you do that webinar for free for people on the weekends to generate leads and none of them ever do it. And I've been telling them, steal it, literally take my shit, give it away for free on Saturdays and tell people, and like you lead it, like literally rob it, don't even change anything, take exactly how I coach, what I talk about, what I do in that 50 minutes and do it for people for free and you will blow their minds because they'll come to that class. I get, and I used to do this thing where I would make these leads come in and I would say, all right, everybody, no warm up, no nothing. I'd be like, let's do 10 body weight squats. And you see this like, can't barely get down, heels all rising, shifting all over the place, just a fucking mess, right? And then I take them through this class. One, we're just doing mobility, but yet they're sweating, it's difficult, you're grunting, they're growing. And at the end, I go 10 squats and they all go, oh my God. You all of a sudden move through this new range of motion. And like instantly, I build credibility in what I can do and there's nothing as a trainer, like you cannot lose 10 pounds or build five pounds of muscle in a workout or even a month's workout, but teaching somebody like corrective movements like that or mobility drills. You can take pain away in one session. You can eliminate or at least like dampen the pain signals that these people have or get them to move better than what they just were. And that's so powerful. And increase their confidence immediately. And to offer that for free, like as a value add. And then the fact that I've created it for you and then I tell you to steal it and do it. And then the trainer still don't do it. It's like, I wanna choke you every time. You just said something too earlier, Jordan. You said you have the advantage of time. So talk about that for a second because people just getting started, they like to think about all the stuff that they don't have. I don't have a presence. I don't have stuff that's out there, but they have something that all of us don't really have anymore, which is a tremendous advantage, which is time. What can you do with that? We talk about this all the time where it's like people look at those with a bigger audience and say, oh, if only I had that, if only I had that. But like one of the number one things a client will say is I just don't wanna feel like a number. And like one of the worst things a client can say in your program is I just felt like a number. I felt like you didn't really know me. And when you don't have a big audience and you don't, and you do have a lot of extra time, there's no reason any client should ever just feel like a number. You should be going over the top, over delivering for every single person. And when you do that for free, I mean, you are gonna build an outrageously loyal following. I have people in the inner circle who were actually in-person clients of mine in like 2011, 2012. And they've just continuously been my clients in one way, shape, or form. It's like the advantage of time gives you the opportunity to speak with people at a level that the people who don't have as much time, they lose out on that. And like you can take advantage of it. Yeah, when you're spending time at that level, whether it's making content or- Talk about when you sent the email to do People's Macros. And like, remember when you did this for free? Yeah, yeah. So this was, I actually think this was maybe the day after Christmas in 2015, Gary's family was on a vacation. I flew down and was coaching him, but had, you know, the entire rest of the day, bless you, outside of coaching him. And I sent like a Christmas present, I'll do your macros for free. Like I'll run them through my calculator. I didn't have, you know, I could have just published it, but I didn't have that. It was just like, you know, if you're looking to get after it here in the new year, I'll let you know kind of your calorie range and where you should be. And I sent this to my email list with a lot of fricking people on it. I already know what happened. I already know what happened right here. Keep going, go ahead and tell us the story. And probably a thousand people replied and wanted me to do their macros. So I spent like the 27th, 28th, 29th. I mean, I probably spent six to eight hours a day for those days individually doing these People's. And I had a little nutrition program. And then there were four or five spots where I'd plug it in, something different for each person and sent each one. There was no automation that I knew of at the time, but emailed each person individually. And people were very grateful and excited. And I don't know, maybe 10 people then became clients as a result of that. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. When you have the time, this is, I mean, someone, one of the trainers pushed back on me like, why don't I do that anymore? Well, I said, well, you know, mine pump on board's 250 people a day. Like me hosting a 30 person in person webinar isn't just not going to translate or times better spent. But when you got it, you got to be taken advantage of. It just drives me crazy when I'm talking to these trainers and they're like training one client a day. And then the rest of the day, they're not doing a bunch of free stuff. It's like, have you ever heard Brett Contreras' story? Do you know that he does, do you know to this day, he's never charged people for free. Everyone he trains is free. Oh, really? Everyone he trains is free. That's crazy. That's wild. Well, I mean, it makes sense when you see what he does. I mean, I don't mean it like that. Let's be honest, it's not hard to do the Lord's work. That's not what our clients are all booty models. That's not what I meant. He makes his revenue through other ways, but his clients generate so much money. But I just thought that was such a great, when we interviewed him, I didn't know that and he brought that up. And I thought that was so fascinating that, especially someone with his cloud now, I mean, he could probably charge $1,000 an hour and get it for people. And yet he's chosen to make money. What about, what's his name? Salzino. He trains celebrities. Oh yeah. Don used to do this thing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don has trained for sure the, out of all the trainers I've met in my life, that guy's two more A-list celebrities than anybody I've met. Oh, tons. When they would train with him, they'd be like, oh, do you want to do a selfie that you could post on social media? He goes, no, no, no, man, I just want to train you. And people, the celebrities are like, what? Yeah. So of course he's getting referred. Of course he's going to grow his business. Well, and then he would do this. So he told me, I was like, you know, like how did you, how did you charge? And he's like, you know what I do? As I would tell him, don't worry about it, just get me when we're done with that. He wouldn't charge them. And he would just allow all the sessions to compound. And then they'd be like, hey, I got a pay. He was like, just send me whatever you want. And he just, he would just let them choose. And it fucking paid off big time. Wow. Because he goes, you know, he would get random stuff like this where Ryan Reynolds is all of a sudden, cause Ryan is a big entrepreneur guy too, right? So he's got, you know, he's selling companies and cashing out hundreds of millions. He said, he, he, Ryan would call him up, be like, hey, check your, check your bank account. Really? Stop it. Or he's just fucking. I'm like, bro, take away clothes. You know what I'm saying? Tell these people like, no, no, no, it's okay. It's a privilege to train you and stuff like that. Just take care of me later. That's why you gotta have passion. Whenever you can. That's all. If you don't have passion, you just take some money. That's so gangster. And the staying power of that, right? If you look at the people who are doing this and they're still around and doing amazing 10, 15, 20 years later. Yeah. It works. Yeah. Obviously they're onto something, right? Yes, exactly. That's amazing. I didn't know that story. Oh, that's great. What a beast. That's right. Well, I tell you guys, we appreciate you guys a lot. Thank you. We really think you guys do a phenomenal job. Likewise. We want to continue to just help elevate people like you guys and we love what you guys do for the space and trainers and coaches. So trainers and coaches listening, these guys are legit. They're sort of the best people. Yeah, best website to get into the program. We're at fitnessbusinessmentorship.com. That's the URL. Excellent. And we couldn't recommend you guys more, so. We really appreciate it. Yeah. Like you said, you guys have inspired us tremendously and you're the whole reason why we started our podcast. And so truly, thank you so much. So you guys are amazing. And we love you and we appreciate you. Thanks, guys.